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Another Case of Bush Derangement Syndrome

This ridiculous stuff is getting old and tiring.

State Comptroller Alan Hevesi publicly apologized Thursday for a "beyond dumb" remark about "putting a bullet between the president's eyes."


Hevesi hastily called a mea culpa press conference hours after putting his foot in his mouth at the Queens College commencement.

The Queens College media relations office said it had videotaped the commencement but could not immediately provide a copy of the tape or a transcript.

At the press conference, a contrite Hevesi repeated what he recalled saying in the speech. The comptroller said he was merely trying to convey that Sen. Charles Schumer has strength and courage to stand up to the president.

"I apologize to the president of the United States" as well as to Schumer, said Hevesi. "I am not a person of violence."

"I am apologizing as abjectly as I can. There is no excuse for it. It was beyond dumb."

Hevesi said he hadn't been in touch with the White House but he hoped his apology reached President Bush.

Everytime I have to listen to another "Bushitler chimp" reference from the Left or a "Bush is a traitor who needs to be impeached" comment from the Right, I feel like I lose a few IQ points. Hey, give me a break, I didn't have that many to spare in the first place. Can't we all just debate the issues on the merits without the hyperbole, much less the threats of bodily harm? Is that really too much to ask?

I enjoy a good Al Gore photoshop contest or a Dick Cheney as Jack Bauer parody as good as the next person. That kind of stuff is good natured fun. Political humor and tough criticism are often very effective in making points. The over-the-top attacks from the loonies (on both the Left and Right) aren't though. When the "debate" turns into name calling and threats nothing is achieved. No one is educated or persuaded by that .

This isn't school uniforms and V chips, people. We are facing some incredibly difficult and complicated issues in the world today. The kind of issues that lend themselves quite nicely to serious debate. Serious debate on the facts. The real facts, not the conventional wisdom (lies) that the MSM feeds us like the one that nobody but George Bush ever believed Saddam Hussein possessed WMD or that we are currently living through an economic recession. Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if we could at least agree to debate the facts in a civil manner? What a wonderful world that would be.

Look, I know that there is a lot of serious debate going on in the blogosphere and elsewhere on the serious topics of the day. There is so much other inflammatory, or just banal, crap out there though, not only on the loony message boards and hate-spewing blogs, but also coming from the Congress and from the pages of major newspapers and through our televisions, that sometimes it is hard to get to "the good stuff."

UPDATE: Ace has a must read piece on why so many on the left are so angry.

UPDATE II: Some have responded to this post saying that my complaint that the MSM often pass along lies as conventional wisdom is the same kind of over-the-top rhetoric that I am lamenting. It is my belief that there is so much evidence that many in the MSM continuously report falsehoods (lies) to their listeners/viewers/readers that it is hardly an over-the-top statement. Just read a few weeks worth of Newsbusters or MRC reports for examples. If you don't have time for that, just consider Dan Rather and Mary Mapes' "fake, but accurate" documents. If the falsehoods are passed along unknowingly, with all the resources available to journalists through the free internet alone, then they aren't guilty of lying, but certainly are guilty of journalistic malpractice, including just plain laziness. Strangely, many of those who deny that the MSM could possibly be guilty of passing along bad information, much less lies, accuse Fox News of doing just that on a daily basis. Go figure.


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Comments (59)

Here's <a href="http://www.... (Below threshold)

Here's some more BDS, from Peter Daou.

The real facts, not the ... (Below threshold)
Lee:

The real facts, not the conventional wisdom (lies) that the MSM feeds us

I actually thought you were serious about serious debate -- until I got to that sentence -- in fact, I stopped reading your post at that point as well.

If you really believe the MSM "lies" to you then you are one sick puppy Lori - not someone who is capable of debating issues "seriously" at all....

Lee, I'm afraid I can easil... (Below threshold)
JannyMae:

Lee, I'm afraid I can easily turn your comment around on you:

"If you really believe the MSM "lies" to you then you are one sick puppy Lori - not someone who is capable of debating issues "seriously" at all"
Posted by: Lee

Lee, if you really believe that the MSM tells you the truth, then you are one sick puppy - not someone who is capable of debating issues, "seriously."

Of course, I've seen your posts, and I already know that about you. You are not capable of debating issues at all, much less, "seriously."

I would think that even tho... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

I would think that even those on the Left would agree with me that much of the conventional wisdom from the MSM is not accurate. I call them lies because I assume they have the true facts (such as with the economy). Maybe I am wrong, though, maybe they are just lazy or inept. That is almost just as bad. There are many times that they report stuff they have to know is misleading, and at times, downright incorrect. If they don't know it they need to find a new profession.

As for me being a "sick puppy", give me a break. For thinking the MSM sometimes perpetuates lies, I am a sick puppy? Check out Newsbusters or the MRC to get about a thousand examples to back up my assertion. This is not wild conjecture on my part. It is sadly only too common and easy to document. Don't want to go to all that trouble, just remember Mary Mapes and the "fake, but accurate" documents she still thinks the public ought to accept.

Seixon, that Peter Daou sto... (Below threshold)
JannyMae:

Seixon, that Peter Daou story is unreal....

*ZING*Let's agree ... (Below threshold)
Robb H:

*ZING*

Let's agree to disagree. The MSM spins the most minute fact into something completely false, in order to promote a private agenda.

Why?

Because I would if I had that job I'll bet.

I'm all for serious debate.... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

I'm all for serious debate..The problem does the President seriously welcome it? The MSM which is not always so monolithic as its image, in this example of The New York Times which succumbed and pulled this story at the last moment. I for one, think the story was believable, but I am certainly not certain... It is however amusing to speculate given the secrecy and the makeup of men like Cheney, Bush and Rove who aren't as naturally animated by policy questions as for instance, Lorie Bryd, but are more consumed by simply winning.

Hey Steve,When you... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

Hey Steve,

When you ask the question - ..the President seriously welcome it? about welcoming debate, it makes me think about Bush-Putin when he (Bush) was asked about the Dan Rather thing, which was stated by the Russians that Bush had the CBS reporter fired or some such...

Debate is strong here in the U.S. - as it should be.

UH oh...Now BushCo a... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

UH oh...
Now BushCo are make-up wearing transvestites... how long before they move to Mass?

Lorie commented: "I woul... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Lorie commented: "I would think that even those on the Left would agree with me that much of the conventional wisdom from the MSM is not accurate."

Wisdom? Are you talking about opinion pieces, or reporting? There is very little if any "wisdom" in news stories... there are facts and quotes -- what is this "wisdom" you hope to find in MSM news reporting?

Op/Ed and opinion columns are just that -- opinion - and are labeled as such, and the wisdom does indeed vary in quality. That's just someone's opinion, and should be treated as such.

But you also wrote "There are many times that they report stuff they have to know is misleading, and at times, downright incorrect"

"Many times?" really? lol - seriously - there may be medication to help you with these delusional thoughts. Mistakes are made - but are you really so sick that you believe there are "many times they report stuff they know is misleading"? You poor thing, it must be awful to go through life feeling so persecuted and "lied to".

I understand where painting the MSM in this manner might help you gather more of those simple-minded readers who don't know any better -- and who are equally haunted by thoughts that they are being lied to and persecuted by the mean old MSM -- (not to mention beiing brain-scanned by aliens) but that's where your plea for serious discussion falls flat on its face. Your own style, and the style of this blog, attracts the lunatic fringe on the right, who are by definition "not serious" about anything except their simple-minded cause du jour, and who routinely lie about the facts in attempt to support their arguments. There is little room for "serious discussion" when the person on the other side of the discussion thinks the "boogey man" is out to get them.

As to your original post, you wrote:

"The real facts, not the conventional wisdom (lies) that the MSM feeds us like the one that nobody but George Bush ever believed Saddam Hussein possessed WMD or that we are currently living through an economic recession."

Surely you can point to a few MSM story that back up your claim about this "conventional" reporting -- if it's so common, a few examples are easy to come up with, right....?

I mean, you weren't lying now, were you?

At the risk of going off-t... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

At the risk of going off-topic which is pretty diffuse anyway,I will say most real debate is very difficult because of the dominating presence of the 800 pound gorilla in the room: that is the Iraq war . My question and most Americans are still asking asking is what are what in the world, are we doing there? trying to spread freedumb not in a city such as Moscow which banned celebration of a gay parade this week, or or for permitting transvestites, but trying to enforce Western style democracy in the 21st century in a country where men are shot and killed for wearing shorts on the national tennis team. This is where Bush ostensibly to protect Americans has rolled the dice in his war on global terror?But it is his premises, I do not share. How can you confront these people? It is terrifying ..and superior firepower or the correct facts will never achieve victory. If the wearing of shorts is such combustionable issue, think what the presence of 130,000 American soldiers must mean.

Lorie, I thought you said t... (Below threshold)
JEW:

Lorie, I thought you said there was serious debate in the blogosphere. Maybe so but this thread sure has degenerated and we can all see who fired the first shots. Too bad, I thought it was a good call on your part.

Steve, About the Ir... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Steve,
About the Iraq war, what do you want to do? What is the long term solution to the problem of terrorism? Does the Russian aid the terrorists to blow up people in the US and elsewhere (do you see the difference?)
As an immigrant from a communist country, I can tell you first hand about the consequence of the dishonesty of the left in the Western world. They ignored and even excused the evil of communism. Many people in my country wished the American would come back and helped free them from the yoke of communism. I bet you the Iraqui people are much more tired of the terrorists blowing up their women and children. They are praying that the American would stay around long enough to help them achieve the first decent democratic country in the ME. The liberal left is trying to deceive people and create a wrong image of American imperialism.

In all honesty, I am totally disgusted with the current Dem party and the radical leftists in the west. They simply hated America and willing to sell out the people of Iraq for their own socialist agenda.

Lori sometimes I wonder if ... (Below threshold)
jainphx:

Lori sometimes I wonder if intelligent debate can ever be serious, when we try to speak rational with unrational people,how else do you explain comments such as Lee's. If you can't covince someone with evidence you just can't debate why try.I know we keep thinking that reason will take hold.but remember the good book say's in the last days wrong will be right,and right will be wrong. Lee will just have to stay wrong, pity.

Lee simply has no arguments... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Lee simply has no arguments to make. That 's why he has to resort to name-calling and smoke-screen.
He is a typical example of what we can expect from the left these days.


What a surprise. The Queens... (Below threshold)
DOUG BOOK:

What a surprise. The Queens College media dept. can't come up with the video tape. Put an "R" behind this jokers name and insert Clinton in place of Bush and CNN news readers would be apoplectic right about now.

Interestingly, I recently p... (Below threshold)
Duram:

Interestingly, I recently participated in an enlightening discussion about some of these very topics. As for the MSM, we were basically discussing how people could discern who to trust of the MSM, blogosphere, etc. The general consensus is that it takes time and a certain level of sophistication to be able to comb through and figure out who and what you believe. Me, I don't think the MSM lies, but I'll also acknowledge that it's not always truthful either. Which is where bloggers can come in. Bloggers and commenters have really emerged as the watchdogs of MSM, ready to attack if a story is wrong. Regardless, some people just stick to one publication and don't even think to question the validity of what they are reading. Sadly their views depend on those of the publication they read. Anyway, to respond to your post, my guess is that it's easier to find a target to blame than to actually sit down and discuss the issues rationally. This is probably why Bush is receiving such harsh attacks and why this comment thread disintegrated into "name calling" as someone put it.

I'm all for serious deba... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

I'm all for serious debate..The problem does the President seriously welcome it? The MSM which is not always so monolithic as its image, in this example of The New York Times which succumbed and pulled this story at the last moment. I for one, think the story was believable, but I am certainly not certain... It is however amusing to speculate given the secrecy and the makeup of men like Cheney, Bush and Rove who aren't as naturally animated by policy questions as for instance, Lorie Bryd, but are more consumed by simply winning.

Hmm, why didn't they mention the theory, with (to be generous) no evidence whatsoever? It is so mind-numbingly idiotic a theory that it boggles the mind.

Using your logic, why didn't the press report on Clinton running drugs out of Arkansas? I mean, besides the lack of any evidence to support it and the sheer idiocy of the charge?

Wisdom? Are you talking about opinion pieces, or reporting? There is very little if any "wisdom" in news stories... there are facts and quotes -- what is this "wisdom" you hope to find in MSM news reporting?

"Facts"? Hmm, let's look back:

The AP reports that Bush was warned that the levees might fail in New Orleans. They even receive a tape and claim that the tape makes the same claim.

The tape, of course, DOESN'T. They had to admit it after pressure hit them.

ABC's political director was nailed flatly SAYING that they weren't going to hold Kerry and Bush to identical standards for honesty.

The NY Times claims that tons of munitions are missing from an ammo dump in Iraq. The military explains that they dealt with it.

The press reports that Bush wants to sell ports to a Dubai-based company, ignoring that the ports WEREN'T being sold (management of them was) and that security was going to be done by --- gasp, the same groups who had ALWAYS done it, the Coast Guard and Customs.

The AP reported that a Bush rally BOOED when Bush wished Clinton well after surgery. The tape of the event, of course, showed the complete opposite.

You mean THOSE facts? I could, easily, rattle off several hundred stories if you want.

Heck, what ISN'T reported is, often, as important as what is. For example, any explanation as to why Clinton having hundreds of FBI files of Republicans in the WH wasn't a huge scandal? Why was Jeff Gannon's history front page fodder --- but Cindy Sheehan's assorted utterances gets ignored?

The problem is that the line between op-ed and news pieces is nigh invisible in the MSM.

"Many times?" really? lol - seriously - there may be medication to help you with these delusional thoughts. Mistakes are made - but are you really so sick that you believe there are "many times they report stuff they know is misleading"? You poor thing, it must be awful to go through life feeling so persecuted and "lied to".

The stories I listed earlier would EASILY be proven wrong if anybody spent a moment doing ANY fact-checking.

I'd buy that these were "mistakes" --- if they didn't ALWAYS seem to be against the exact same side of the equation virtually every single time.

I understand where painting the MSM in this manner might help you gather more of those simple-minded readers who don't know any better -- and who are equally haunted by thoughts that they are being lied to and persecuted by the mean old MSM -- (not to mention beiing brain-scanned by aliens) but that's where your plea for serious discussion falls flat on its face.

Says the guy who rails on how biased FNC is. How unnervingly biased they are and how they can't be believed because they are so darned partisan.

I know you don't see the irony --- but I do and it's quite funny.

Your own style, and the style of this blog, attracts the lunatic fringe on the right

Care to identify this "lunatic fringe"? Come on, you can define your own labels, can't you?

I can say that the "lunatic fringe" never hated Clinton with the passion or fervor that the left --- and, let me guess, they AREN'T "lunatic fringe" --- hates Bush. The "lunatics" on the right didn't on a far-too-common basis wish harm or death upon Clinton.

My question and most Americans are still asking asking is what are what in the world, are we doing there?

If you don't know, nobody has the energy to actually try to enlighten you now.

trying to spread freedumb not in a city such as Moscow which banned celebration of a gay parade this week

And what, pray tell, do you propose we do about Moscow?

but trying to enforce Western style democracy in the 21st century in a country where men are shot and killed for wearing shorts on the national tennis team.

Hmm, so you do believe that there are people too primitive to be able to vote. Got it.

It is terrifying ..and superior firepower or the correct facts will never achieve victory. If the wearing of shorts is such combustionable issue, think what the presence of 130,000 American soldiers must mean.

So, what do you propose we do? Leave? Don't you think that'd cause a BIT of a problem?
-=Mike

Lee, what you call facts in... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf:

Lee, what you call facts in news stories, many call spin. For instance. For the MSM to call illegal aliens (those who sneak across our borders without valid permission) immigrants, only misleads the average person to think it is no big deal. Further, to suggest the War with Iraq started with Bush simply ignores the fact the W.J. Clinton lobbed missles into Iraq on occasion. Some consider missle lobbing an act of war. One of the targets was a chemical plant, outside of Iraq, setup by Saddam to train al-Qaeda personnel how to make VX and other agents. Clinton attacked that one an night, so as not to hurt anyone who might be guilty of making poison gas. He was sensitive that way. That is why you idiots like him.

Of course the leftists atte... (Below threshold)

Of course the leftists attempt to hijack any topic which discomforts them.

What on earth does a public official making a public comment about putting a bullet between the President of the United States' eyes have to do with Iraq?


The simple truth is the moonbats see nothing at all wrong with Hevesi's remarks - except, perhaps, that he apologized for making them. Somewhere deep down inside them, though, in the tiny part of their brains which still function beyond their programming, they do recognize that the average middle-of-the-road person does object to such talk, so they attempt to divert attention from the subject.

Welcome to the Big Time {cue Peter Gabriel and the band}, Lorie! Now you're being slimed by the leftist trolls, and they only bother to do that if they sense you are hurting The Cause somehow.

Keep up the good work!

Maybe it is time to start t... (Below threshold)
Observer:

Maybe it is time to start thinking about the possibility that, since BDS is infecting even accountant-types, those suffering from the syndrome might actually be the sane ones....

And I do have to agree with Lee, posting above. It is odd for someone to write a post lamenting the over-the-top rhetoric in modern political discourse, and then to go on to claim that the MSM is constantly, knowingly lying.

Shall we call it MSMDS?

I agree that we have to be ... (Below threshold)
JSchuler:

I agree that we have to be careful about throwing the "L" word around too carelessly. Afterall, with the definition of "lie" that is in current usage, I was a chronic liar on my Calculus tests because I got so many questions wrong, and I should have been expelled because of my Chemisty labs, as my consistent failure to replecate the expected results was a demonstration of my complete lack of academic integrity.

However, "gross incompetence," "spectacular stupidity," and "complete dumb-f#$^ery" are labels that all too often are too kind for our special friends in that great short-bus that is the MSM. Still, it could always be worse: we could be stuck with the European press.

Hmmmm.but... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

but trying to enforce Western style democracy in the 21st century in a country where men are shot and killed for wearing shorts on the national tennis team.

How about trying to enforce Western style democracy in the 21st century in a country where men are stabbed to death for making a movie?

I.e. Holland.

How about trying to enforce Western style democracy in the 21st century in a country where men are set on fire because they're Turks?

I.e. Germany.

How about trying to enforce Western style democracy in the 21st century in a country where women are murdered because they're prostitutes?

I.e. America.

...

You know the drill and I'm frankly too lazy right now to continue with the examples.

What kind of moron is this ... (Below threshold)
MikeB:

What kind of moron is this guy ?

A public official advocating, even if just figuratively, violence against public officials..

- MikeB

Some have responded to t... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

Some have responded to this post saying that my complaint that the MSM often pass along lies as conventional wisdom is the same kind of over-the-top rhetoric that I am lamenting.

Just last night, I accidentally saw the end of the NBC Nightly News. Brian Williams was reporting on the inauguration of Ray Nagin in New Orleans. He mentioned that the event took place in the Convention Center, the scene of "so much despair and death." As we now know, there were only four deaths at the Convention Center and three of those were from natural causes. No one (and I do mean no one) can convince me that a network news anchor didn't know those facts nine months later. The only logiocal explanaton is that he was manipulating the truth to influence people who haven't taken the time to learn what really happened and are clinging to a myth.

To ed..and others..Sorry I ... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

To ed..and others..Sorry I strayed off topic..which I believe was about name calling and hyperbole and MSM bias ..What I suggested with the incident ot the lethal shorts and Iraq, is that it is all about perception and the efficacy of political change even when the facts are indisputable..The left suggests that the MSM has had a establisnment bias in their deference to the administration (until recently) while the right continues to be outraged that the MSM media as ever, is too adversarial and unfair. to the administration. The hump in Bush's back may be debatable and not evidentary enough, but Cheney clearly showed contempt for the rules of civilized debate and for his opponent when he snarled "The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight" But the MSM moderator, Russert and Edwards were too polite and too deferential, perhaps stunned is the word to mention it (afterall the debate was to be about policy not personal slanging0, to hold him to acount, which other mere mortals would have had to undergone .. A small point... there are better and bigger and more recent, but it is illustrative nonetheless. Where was the vigorous press highlighting this, or the mea culpas such as Helvesi's, when they have been found out on this, and many other administration 'misstatements' if you will.

Steve, The bottom l... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Steve,
The bottom line is that the left has decided to side with the enemies of America during the cold war and now the GWOT for ideological reasons. The left in the West and in America simply becomes a propaganda machine for the Jihadist terrorists and the former Baathists in Iraq. They are treating the mullahs in Iran much better than they treat America.
About the debate, I am surprised that you didn't mentioned former presidents like Carter and Clinton going abroad trashing the current president of the US. THis crosses personal and public decency. Also the Dem party openly embraced Michael Moore and seated him next to Carter at their convention even though Moore is a known propagandist for Saddam Hussein.

Steve, are you saying that Bush should have treated the Dems as liars and not serious about national security when they waxed eloquence about the WMD threat from Saddam Hussein? Are you denying the dishonesty of the left and the MSM?

. The hump in Bush's bac... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

. The hump in Bush's back may be debatable and not evidentary enough, but Cheney clearly showed contempt for the rules of civilized debate and for his opponent when he snarled "The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight" But the MSM moderator, Russert and Edwards were too polite and too deferential, perhaps stunned is the word to mention it (afterall the debate was to be about policy not personal slanging0, to hold him to acount, which other mere mortals would have had to undergone .. A small point...

It was as big a "violation" as Bentsen's "You're no Jack Kennedy" line.

Namely, it WASN'T one. It was just a devastating line that made the supporters of the target upset.

Well, except that Quayle supporters didn't whine that much about it.

You want sleaze? How 'bout Edwards and Kerry both using Cheney's lesbian daughter to attack Cheney? That was quite low.

And if you are actually trying to compare Cheney saying he didn't know Edwards with somebody saying Bush should be shot, then you're beyond help.
-=Mike

Lorie - Your article and st... (Below threshold)

Lorie - Your article and statements about DBM (drive-by media) lies is absolutely TRUE. Those who would call you hysterical or a "sick puppy" are just willfully ignorant.

To be objective enough to admit the media isin the GOSSIP business rather the NEWS business would mess with there worldview more than some of them could handle.

True to form, the BBC (part... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

True to form, the BBC (part of the DBM) provided the propaganda service for our enemy again. They used a tape from our enemy in Iraq, the "hardline Sunni group". I guess these are the former Baathists who want to regain their fascist power over the Iraqui people. The Baathist is bascially the Arab version of the Nazis. BBC now will provide a free public service for them. Who knows that the liberal press would side with the modern Nazis. The question is how many in the left would jump on this anti-American bandwagon.

http://www.democracy-project.com/archives/002573.html

jainphx: there used to be i... (Below threshold)

jainphx: there used to be intelligent, serious debate, if you take people like Buckley seriously. Now that a lot of the old liberals are kicking off people like him are writing weepy adieus to their old debating foes of the left. They fondly talk about disagreeing with them but what good, well-meaning (if misguided) people they were that really believed in their cause. Basically that all went out the window, I dunno, let's say around when Saddam decided he wanted better Gulf access and thought taking over Kuwait was the best way to go about it. Then the attacks on Bush began for not letting Saddam do that, then the attacks on Clinton, etc. I hold out a vague little hope that we'll have someone 'independent' in the White House in 2009, breaking this, what is it now, 26 year unbroken line?

As for Hevesi, I saw a video this morning on the news. At the key moment the camera was focused on the mindless slugs receiving scraps of paper that claim they've actually learned to be adults. At the mention of Bush they seemed to stir, after hearing about how the speaker wants to see Bush shot in the head they seemed a bit incredulous ("did he just say what I thought he said?") then a few of the most deranged began to applaud so naturally the rest of the sheep started bleating at the thought of the President of the United States being killed by a Senator that thinks identity theft is pretty much OK until you're caught. All in all it was rather tasteless. How lucky are we here in NY to have such brilliant elected officials that think that saying the President should be shot in the head is putting it 'diplomatically'? When you hear him say it, instead of just reading it, then you'll really be convinced that his crappola explanation now about "I just meant he'd stand up to him" is completely bogus. His tone was jolly, sort of 'hey, wouldn't it be great if...' with a touch of 'good thing no one is recording this and there can't possibly be any Bush supporters here, but just in case I'll be 'diplomatic' and just talk about a bullet in the head, that should be enought to cover my butt if anyone tries to quote me'.

Just another liberal saying what they think and when the crap-storm erupts they try to say they didn't say what we all heard them say.

The liberal MSM is so predi... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The liberal MSM is so predictable in their spin

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/05/business/main1591439.shtml
Unemployment Dips, But Hiring Slows
May Jobless Rate Drops to 4.6%, But Only 75,000 Jobs Are Created

Just another liberal saying... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Just another liberal saying what they think and when the crap-storm erupts they try to say they didn't say what we all heard them say.
------------------------------------------------
This is right on. The liberals cannot simply be honest about themselves in public. Just like they support the troops, but they would take every opportunity to trash the troops. They make moral equivalency to claim that our troops are worse than the jihadist terrorists.

Believe only 10%o... (Below threshold)
Tincan Sailor:


Believe only 10%of what you read and hear
and 50% of what you see!! As for the MSM
I would trust al-Jazerra before the AP...

LoveAmerica Immigrant..I as... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

LoveAmerica Immigrant..I assume that I am the Steve you are referring to..Lorie first brought up the WMD issue so with an apology to Adjordan and others who think that it is off-topic to talk about Iraq..I will mention that the Administration were too willing to believe, or cherry pick what they wanted..The Democrat senators like Kemnnedy and Kerry went along because they American opinion was so intense, and indeed Saddam had fooled alot of people and not only the Iranians that he must have had something up his sleeve..I live in Brazil, and even Lula the president here, plays a kind of cat and mouse game about the nuclear intentions of Brazil. Practically no soverign country it seems wants the nuclear option completely off the table. As for criticism of Bush and company, serving the intersts of America's enemies...Criticism and accountability make for a stronger America, that is the price and benefit of democracy, otherwise our leaders ( including many of the Democrats would get away with even more)..Jay Tea has debunked Moore much better than I can..but I believe the Republicans have continued to exploit 9/11 long past its natural life, and as Dr Johnson said in the late 18th century"patriotism is the last refugee of the scoundrel"and so much debate about foreign policy gets buried under the deafening rubric of gwot .

"What on earth does a publi... (Below threshold)

"What on earth does a public official making a public comment about putting a bullet between the President of the United States' eyes have to do with Iraq?"

Of course, it has nothing to do with Iraq. But what we have witnessed ad nauseum since the first Bush election is the continual repetition of untruths, until people with few (if any) critical thinking skills actually accept them as facts. The fact that this is the same technique espoused by Marxist/Leninist teachings doesn't surprise me either.

BUT LET'S DEAL WITH THE REAL ISSUE here folks. Threatening the life of the President of the United States is a Federal Crime for heaven's sakes - even if you subsequently apologize! It is NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR from anyone and anyone who does threaten the President's life should promptly be arrested and held to account. THAT is why this moonbat Hevesi apologized and it is the ONLY REASON why he did. He's scared witless that he's going to be arrested and with good and sufficient reason. And do NOT pull that tired "freedom of speech" nonsense either! Freedom to make criminal threats is not covered - per the Supreme Court!

I am nearly 64 years old and in my lifetime I have seen the degeneration of public discourse to a degree that would have been UNTHINKABLE even 30 years ago. It is dangerous, it is destructive to our country. Does anyone honestly think that people who are citizens of other countries around the world really understand how our country works? So that when they hear a remark like Hevesi's they might take it as an invitation? What is wrong with you people? Do you think beyond your own petty prejudices and look at the larger picture - EVER?


Steve C:I never, NEV... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Steve C:
I never, NEVER understood why people went apeshit over the "lump in Bush's back" but NEVER wanted to discuss Kerry pulling notes out of his jacket pocket (http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/001054.php ). By the rules of the debate, neither candidate was to bring ANYTHING to the podium, but there's John Forbes Kerry pulling out, unfolding, and laying on the podium a sheet of paper. (Any pens, papers, or whatever was to be given to the debate moderators, who would make sure it was placed on the podium.)

So, Steve, where is your ringing condemnation of Kerry's cheating?

J.

Jay, maybe you should have ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Jay, maybe you should have paid attention all the way thru back when the debates were going on, or at least followed your own links now. From the now defunct Daily Recycler that Bill links to with the video:

UPDATE Mystery solved: It was a pen.

They used to have a close up image of the pen, but it's gone now. Nice try anyway.

Steve,I wi... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Steve,

I will mention that the Administration were too willing to believe, or cherry pick what they wanted..The Democrat senators like Kemnnedy and Kerry went along because they American opinion was so intense,

Clinton made speeches after speeches about the WMD threat from Saddam Hussein in the late 1990s. He even signed the "Iraq liberation act" (ie. regime change). Key Dem senators fully supported Clinton during this time and their rhetoric was far stronger than Bush. So just following your logic, Bush should have treated the Dems as liars or unserious about national security when they made these statements and passed these laws . So we may have an agreement here.


and indeed Saddam had fooled alot of people and not only the Iranians that he must have had something up his sleeve..I live in Brazil, and even Lula the president here, plays a kind of cat and mouse game about the nuclear intentions of Brazil. Practically no soverign country it seems wants the nuclear option completely off the table.

Those countries that are willing to aid the terrorists to blow up women and children (as done in Israel) should be taken seriously. We had 14 UN resolutions against Saddam Hussein based on his agression against Kuwait and violations of the cease-fire conditions. No responsible leader will take a chance with the millions of lives lost given 9/11.



As for criticism of Bush and company, serving the intersts of America's enemies...Criticism and accountability make for a stronger America, that is the price and benefit of democracy, otherwise our leaders ( including many of the Democrats would get away with even more)...

I hope you understand the difference between constructive criticism and smearing. I hope you parents didn't just criticize you all the time to make you stronger.


Jay Tea has debunked Moore much better than I can..but I believe the Republicans have continued to exploit 9/11 long past its natural life,

The war against the terrorists is a long war. I am surprised that you don't think much about the threat of terrorism given what kind of atrocities these people are willing to commit.


and as Dr Johnson said in the late 18th century"patriotism is the last refugee of the scoundrel"and so much debate about foreign policy gets buried under the deafening rubric of gwot .

I think this is true of the left. They are hiding behind this statement all the time to justify their inexcusable actions. Just to give you an example. Your parents are feeding and protecting you. They may not be perfect, but they are trying to give you a good life. Then you don't show any appreciation and constantly criticize, sometimes smear them. At the same time, you try to excuse the people who want to destroy your parents ' business. You may call that freedom of speech. But I call it hypocrisy and ungrateful.

I think it is cheap to criticize Bush or demonstrate against war in a country like the US. The communists and other agents of tyrannical regimes have been taking advantage of this freedom in the west to advance their agenda to rule the world. This is a known fact. IF you can go to Iran and openly criticize the gov there and organize demonstration there, then it is real courage.


As to your original post, y... (Below threshold)
Lee:

As to your original post, you wrote:

"The real facts, not the conventional wisdom (lies) that the MSM feeds us like the one that nobody but George Bush ever believed Saddam Hussein possessed WMD or that we are currently living through an economic recession."

and I commented:
"Surely you can point to a few MSM story that back up your claim about this "conventional" reporting -- if it's so common, a few examples are easy to come up with, right....?"

We're still waiting - not even one quote or link yet that backs up your claim --- must be a busy day.... no problem - lots of time - whenever you get around to it Lorie.

Or were your claims just lies?

Lee, Lorie just added an up... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Lee, Lorie just added an update 2 to try and satisfy your query.and Love.AmericaImmigrant.let me try a new tactic ...when the shoe was on the other foot and Clinton was leading a war in Kosnovo, admittedly much smaller, but it didn't seem to dampen the fierce ant-war criticism from the party of patriotism, the Republicans, and many of their big names, even while there were zero American casualties, unlike Iraq.

Its too bad, Hevisi actuall... (Below threshold)
jack oneil:

Its too bad, Hevisi actually does a good job. With NY politics as tied to the unions as they are, he is the one guy that tries to save me some money by pointing out all the pork.

Thanks, Steve, but I saw th... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Thanks, Steve, but I saw that update before repeating my request. Lorie's update does not address the two claims in her post. She waves her hands in the air and says it (the MSM lies) are everywhere, but when asked to support her claim about two specific examples she uses in her blog post, she is - so far at least, silent.

I'm sure she's just pouring through the hundreds of examples that support her claim regarding MSM lies:

Lorie wrote:
the conventional wisdom (lies) that the MSM feeds us like the one that nobody but George Bush ever believed Saddam Hussein possessed WMD or that we are currently living through an economic recession.

Personally, I've never read any MSM stories stating either of those two "lies", so I'm really looking forward to Lorie supporting her claim with facts; specific examples of these two lies.

I find it hard to believe that Lorie lied to us in the very paragraph where she claims that the MSM lies to us - why that would be too absurd!

I know she'll come up with some examples and links - let's just give her more time....

Lee, Steve is the p... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Lee,
Steve is the perfect example of what you claim to hate. Steve cherry picked one piece of reporting and put in his spin. He forgot that Gingrich made a public statement that we need to stand behind our troops when they were ordered into conflicts and he did. Gingrich did this even when Clinton ordered the strike right before the impeachment hearings. I didn't read about former prezs like Bush going abroad criticizing Clinton or trashing AMerica. I didn't see Rep congressmen went to Serbia like the Dems did wrt Iraq.

Steve, I am using your own standard now:

(1) According to you, the US had little or no reason to get involved in Kosovo. Clinton didn't bother to go through the UN and didn't ask Congress either. Why was the left so gung ho about it? Why couldn't the left strongly criticize CLinton and let the Europeans take care of the problem in their own backyard?

(2) I thought you will be happy when the left is strongly criticized since we live in a democracy. THis should make the left stronger, right? I guess the left welcomes dissent. They should be happy that people are criticizing them.

Lee, I find it har... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Lee,
I find it hard to believe that Lorie lied to us in the very paragraph where she claims that the MSM lies to us - why that would be too absurd!
--------------------------------------------------
Rathergate
Eason Jordan
Weapon dump
Cambodia trip by Kerry
....

Too many lies to list.

Lee, are you denying that the liberal left has been dishonest?

The liberal media didn't ev... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The liberal media didn't even initiate their own investigation of Rathergate. And Lee is ready to smear the military already.

Using your own standard, Lee, the liberal MSM and Dems are beyond contempt? Can we be intellectually honest enough to agree on that?

Here is the link Lorie is t... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Here is the link Lorie is talking about
http://www.mediaresearch.org/

Lee,
CAn you be honest enough to agree that the liberal left is beyond contempt now?

Geez Lee -- I have a life ... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

Geez Lee -- I have a life outside of the computer. I have actually been at my daughters' school events all day long. Beach Day with my kindergartener and Awards Day for my fourth grader. I am on my way out in a few minutes to get stuff for my sister's baby shower this weekend. I skim the comments for profanity, threats, etc. and sometimes read entire comments, but don't always have time to read every single one and respond.

I pointed readers to MRC and Newsbusters and referenced the "fake, but accurate" docs. As for Bush being the only one that thought Saddam had WMD, everytime a reporter lets a Democrat lie on the air saying that Bush lied about Saddam having WMD (when they know that isn't true) and they don't correct them, or ask them if Clinton and Gore and Kerry weren't lying too, then, they are perpetuating a lie on their program. I am sure you could find plenty of examples of that if you cared to look. You seem to have plenty of time to comment here. There are likewise many examples of doom and gloom, bad economy stories aired and published during the recent Bush boom. Maybe I will compile some examples and put into my next column, but honestly that is not much of a columnn topic because conservatives would find such a topic incredibly boring (like saying the grass is green) because it has been shown so many times. Sorry, but I really do have to run and get back before the rush hour traffic. Just so you don't think I am ignoring you this weekend, I will be attending an out of town baby shower and tending to five puppies (and a husband and two kids). I will probably post a couple of items, but probably will not be doing much commenting. Weekends are serious family time for me.

LoveAmerica Immigrant..Alot... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

LoveAmerica Immigrant..Alot of this debate really depends on your perspective. Lee and I are not anti-military but antiwar. I grew up in an era where we measured our personal behaviour and standard of public behaviour against the Marquis of Queensberry Rules not those of Hevesi at Queens college..or some other minor dictator or thug in the Middle East.. But "shouldn't a man's reach exceeed his grasp or what is a heaven for"..In terms of openness, humility, and competency this regime may be better than Omar Bongo in Gabon, but so what.. And actually I thought the USA began as a liberal self governing nation to throw out the British Tories of George 111 who had contempt for unpatriotic overseas upstarts..The conservatives or loyalists, in America then moved to Upper and Lower Canada or Nova Scotia.

Lorie commented above that:... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Lorie commented above that: "As for Bush being the only one that thought Saddam had WMD, everytime a reporter lets a Democrat lie on the air saying that Bush lied about Saddam having WMD (when they know that isn't true) and they don't correct them, or ask them if Clinton and Gore and Kerry weren't lying too, then, they are perpetuating a lie on their program."

I guess the above is an attempt to support your statement that "the conventional wisdom (lies) that the MSM feeds us like the one that nobody but George Bush ever believed Saddam Hussein possessed WMD...".

I'm so glad we're getting to specifics now. So if I understand you correctly you claim that a news report that quotes a Democrat who says Bush lied about Saddam's WMDs is an example of a MSM lie?

If the Washingon Post quotes John Kerry saying "Bush lied" then the Washington Post is guilty of lying also? Because they didn't prove your contention that Kerry is liying? That's the most childish statement I've read on this blog to date. -- and you made it in a post where you ask for reasonsable discussion! What a joke. You're not serious are you?

re: your claim in your original post that the MSM lhas lied about the economy by claiming we're living through a recession, you commented: "There are likewise many examples of doom and gloom, bad economy stories aired and published during the recent Bush boom."

I don't think you owe us a lot of links to economic stories that don't paint the same rosy picture as your links to White House press releases -- press release written to propr us Bush's sagging popularity -- just give us one example of where the MSM is guilty of stating, as you said in your original post, "...that we are currently living through an economic recession."

As I said before, I haven't seen any stories which claim we're currently living through a recession, so I'm really looking forward to you showing us those words in a MSM story. You said "recession" - google the word and link us to an example where the MSM stated we're currently in a recession -- you keep affirming that you're statement is correct - show us an example! One example?!?!

Your original blog post asked "Can't we all just debate the issues on the merits without the hyperbole, much less the threats of bodily harm? Is that really too much to ask?"

Come on Lorie, PLEASE prove that your claims the MSM lied about these issues isn't just hyperbole, so we can debate the issues on their merits, as you suggest.

Is that really too much to ask?

LoveAmerica Immig... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:


LoveAmerica Immigrant..Alot of this debate really depends on your perspective. Lee and I are not anti-military but antiwar.

Thanks for the clarification. Then, Lee is not simply anti-war, he must be anti-military because he is not shy to smear the entire military. Beyond that, the modern left is not simply anti-war as you said, they are pro-other side. They are not against the terrorists and the Baathists waging war against innocent IRaqui women and children. Otherwise, I would have seen a lot of demonstrations and calls for the foreign terrorists to leave Iraq. Also I would see a lot of condemnation from the left against the minority former Sunni Baathist. That 's the quickest way for the American to leave Iraq: the foreign terrorists to leave Iraq and the minority Baathists to respect the will of the majority Iraqui to build a functional democracy.


I grew up in an era where we measured our personal behaviour and standard of public behaviour against the Marquis of Queensberry Rules not those of Hevesi at Queens college..or some other minor dictator or thug in the Middle East.. But "shouldn't a man's reach exceeed his grasp or what is a heaven for"..

Good point again. That 's why modern liberalism is intellectually corrupt. Modern liberalism is simply another variation of secular statism (fascism and communism are another two variations of this ideology). Basically it believed that it can build heaven on earth with the state or gov as a provider of all people 's needs. What we accomplished in Iraq shouls be celebrated by the left? Aren't people happy that 30 million people were freed from Baathist's yoke (another form of Nazism)? IT is also a long term solution to the problem of terrorism. I wonder why the left would want to make Iraq a failure. Again, for me this is an example of they hypocrisy of the modern left


In terms of openness, humility, and competency this regime may be better than Omar Bongo in Gabon, but so what.. And actually I thought the USA began as a liberal self governing nation to throw out the British Tories of George 111 who had contempt for unpatriotic overseas upstarts..The conservatives or loyalists, in America then moved to Upper and Lower Canada or Nova Scotia.

You are right, the modern liberals are not classical liberals. They are more statists or socialists. Look at the old liberals like FDR, Truman .... At least they fought againts the Nazis and the communists. The modern liberals have been on the side of the communists and now the jihadist terrorists.

You should rethink about your support for modern liberalism.

LeeCome on Lorie, PL... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Lee
Come on Lorie, PLEASE prove that your claims the MSM lied about these issues isn't just hyperbole, so we can debate the issues on their merits, as you suggest.

Is that really too much to ask?
--------------------------------------------------
Since Lee wanted to debate 2 points: Iraq WMD and economhy

(1) We knew that the Dems since Clinton have waxed eloquence about the WMD threat from Saddam.

(2) The economy has grown at a great rate under Bush despite 9/11 and the cost of fighting against terrorism.

Anyone who claimed Bush lied or misled the country like Kerry, CLinton, Pelosi, NYT, CBS, ABC ... have been lying.

Anyone who claimed this is the worst economy like Edwards etc... have also been lying.


Lee,
Can we be intellectually honest enough to agree on this? Once you agreed on that, then I can provide the links for you.

LeeIf the Washingon ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Lee
If the Washingon Post quotes John Kerry saying "Bush lied" then the Washington Post is guilty of lying also?
--------------------------------------------------
YEs if they didn't provide the details that Clinton and other Dems have said the same thing before Bush.

This is a standard distortion tactic. Do you really don't know this or are you dense?

Although this leads to ano... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Although this leads to another post on another topic, here's another of Wizbang!'s bloogers "Paul" telling people who disagree with him to F*ck off.

wizbangblog.com/2006/06/02/the-corps-report-a-personal-note.php#234991

HOW ABSOLUTELY HYPOCRITICAL OF YOU.
ARE YOU REALLY TOO STUPID to see what you just did?

In your world view it is perfectly OK to insult New Orleanians, they deserve it.

Here's a clue: Fuck you.

The poster didn't insult New Orleansians, all they did was disagree with Paul -- and yet apparently Paul has no tolerance for those who have differing opinions.... not to mention the fact that he lied in his blog post headline when he stated Corps Admits They Flooded New Orleans- Not Katrina. Does that answer your question, Lorie, as to why there isn't reasonable discussion on this blog?

The Corps didn't flood anything -- they may be guilty of not adequately protecting NO against a flood, but tthe implication that they "flooded NO" is false, and the headline that they admitted to flooding New Orleans is a lie.

Whizbang bloggers whine constantly about MSM lying, but appear to be prone to the practice themselves.

Lee, Looks like you... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Lee,
Looks like you are trying to change the topic. Since you are insisting on honesty, I take the opportunity to ask you the same questions again:


Since Lee wanted to debate 2 points: Iraq WMD and economhy

(1) We knew that the Dems since Clinton have waxed eloquence about the WMD threat from Saddam.

(2) The economy has grown at a great rate under Bush despite 9/11 and the cost of fighting against terrorism.

Anyone who claimed Bush lied or misled the country like Kerry, CLinton, Pelosi, NYT, CBS, ABC ... have been lying.

Anyone who claimed this is the worst economy like Edwards etc... have also been lying.


Lee,
Can we be intellectually honest enough to agree on this? Once you agreed on that, then I can provide the links for you.

Lee, LEt 's start t... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Lee,
LEt 's start to have a reasonable discussion by answering my questions above. Since you raised the points, I laid out the assumptions. If you don't agree, please explain why. Otherwise, for honesty 's sake, can we agree on these two points before moving on

Anyone who claimed Bush lied or misled the country like Kerry, CLinton, Pelosi, NYT, CBS, ABC ... have been lying.
Anyone who claimed this is the worst economy like Edwards etc... have also been lying.

Lee, Lorie just added an... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Lee, Lorie just added an update 2 to try and satisfy your query.and Love.AmericaImmigrant.let me try a new tactic ...when the shoe was on the other foot and Clinton was leading a war in Kosnovo, admittedly much smaller, but it didn't seem to dampen the fierce ant-war criticism from the party of patriotism, the Republicans, and many of their big names, even while there were zero American casualties, unlike Iraq.

A few differences:

1) Clinton didn't go the UN at all.
2) There was nothing that can even REMOTELY be tied to an interest of ours in Kosovo.

So, for the left, ignoring the UN (an "illegal war", in other words) and only engaging in wars with no benefit WHATSOEVER for us is peachy. Got it.

Lee and I are not anti-military but antiwar.

"We don't hate the soldiers. We just hate everything they do."

Thanks for the enlightenment there.

I grew up in an era where we measured our personal behaviour and standard of public behaviour against the Marquis of Queensberry Rules not those of Hevesi at Queens college..or some other minor dictator or thug in the Middle East.. But "shouldn't a man's reach exceeed his grasp or what is a heaven for"..In terms of openness, humility, and competency this regime may be better than Omar Bongo in Gabon, but so what.. And actually I thought the USA began as a liberal self governing nation to throw out the British Tories of George 111 who had contempt for unpatriotic overseas upstarts

I love the way you, without even a pause, go from mourning the loss of political civility to insulting those who disagree with you. It's impressive, honestly.

I don't think you owe us a lot of links to economic stories that don't paint the same rosy picture as your links to White House press releases -- press release written to propr us Bush's sagging popularity -- just give us one example of where the MSM is guilty of stating, as you said in your original post, "...that we are currently living through an economic recession."

You mean besides yesterday's stories of the unemployment rate dropping to 4.6%...BUT the "pace of hiring" slackening (which is common sense as one approaches maximum levels of employment in a capitalist system)?

Do you REALLY want to compare the cheerleader treatment of the economy under Clinton with the doom-and-gloom of the coverage of the Bush economy (which is as strong as Clinton's, with significantly less corruption).
-=Mike

Do you REALLY want to co... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Do you REALLY want to compare the cheerleader treatment of the economy under Clinton with the doom-and-gloom of the coverage of the Bush economy

No, I just ONE example fo the MSM lying about the economy being in a recession from Lorie, since she said it's so common... and so far it appears she lied about that.

I think it unlikely you've ... (Below threshold)
Anakin Skywalker:

I think it unlikely you've really heard much "Bushitler" from anyone on the left. Google the expression, and you'll find that it is largely confined to right wing websites. The more typical lefty acronym would be something more akin to "Chimpy McFlightsuit."

However, I am puzzled by the right's insistence on "civil debate." It seemed quite uninterested in such a thing during the waning year's of Clinton's presidency (unless the White House was fonder of Klintoon, Hitlery, and "Slick Willy" than I am aware of.)




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