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President Bush Wants a Compromise Immigration Reform Bill

It's being reported today that President Bush is calling on Congress to create a compromise comprehensive immigration reform bill. A good compromise is Rep. Mike Pence's bill, which is made up of four sequential parts. He published the Executive Summary of his No Amnesty Immigration Reform bill on his blog:

1. Secure our border.

2. Make the decision, once and for all, to deny amnesty to people whose first act in the United States was a violation of the law.
3. Put in place a guest worker program, without amnesty, that will efficiently provide American employers with willing guest workers who come to America legally.
4. Enforce tough employer sanctions that ensure a full partnership between American business and the American government in the enforcement of our laws on immigration and guest workers.

President Bush insists that "[t]he vast majority of illegal immigrants are decent people. They're hardworking people. They're people who love their families. ... They are part of American life and they're vital to our economy."

Rep. Pence's bill addresses President Bush's concerns. It includes a guest worker program that the president and the Senate say are absolutely necessary to the health and well being of the country. At the same time it denies amnesty to illegals who break the law to enter the country, an issue the House Republicans must have.

Rep. Pence's bill is similar to the idea former Attorney General Ed Meese discussed in last week's blogger conference call.

Hat tip: Tim Chapman at the Capitol Report.


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Comments (48)

Well, I don't disagree with... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Well, I don't disagree with the President's quote about illegal immigrants being decent people who love their families, blah, blah, blah. All I want to hear from him is why he thinks the Mexicans are "privileged" in this regard.

And where does he say Mexic... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

And where does he say Mexicans are somehow privileged in this regard? A couple of million illegals are European, not Mexican.

Does anyone else think the ... (Below threshold)
millco88:

Does anyone else think the #1 item on that list is a pipe dream?? Regardless of how many people you have patrolling the border, unless you're willing to shoot those crossing, there's always going to be some illegals entering this country. The real question is what level is acceptable.

Hmmm.Actually that... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

Actually that Pence compromise is a sucker bet.

Problems:

1. The guest worker registration system allows employers to preferentially request existing illegal alien employees. All they have to do is sign up with a guest worker referral company and they're good to go.

2. The existing illegal aliens would have to do the idiotic kabuki dance of leaving the USA, crossing the Mexican border, pick up their prepared papers and then immediately re-crossing the American border.

3. Because employers can get their current employees setup by preference it basically shuts out anybody else.

4. Under the Pence compromise these guest workers are allowed to bring in their parents, spouse and children. Who are then eligible for all federal, state and local social services and educational benefits without restriction.

5. These Pence guest workers are then eligible to get green cards.

6. These Pence guest workers are then, once they have green cards, eligible to leave the guest worker program and apply for citizenship.

7. The Pence compromise basically doesn't have any limits whatsoever. So instead of the 200,000 per year guest worker program the senate bill has, this one is UNLIMITED.

And you like this piece of crap Kim?

I read a good analysis on the Pence compromise and why it's bad. I'll see if I can remember where I read it and post a link.

What's pipe dream about it?... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

What's pipe dream about it? It doesn't have to be perfect to be effective and slow the rate of illegal immigration to a trickle, rather than the current flood we've got.

Listkeeper, you are correct... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Listkeeper, you are correct. I was out of line. The large numbers of immigrants crossing the border from Mexico has had scant impact on the President's enthusiasm for immigration "reform". The laws currently on the books are truly inadequate - this has been clear for decades.

millco88 - quit being sensi... (Below threshold)
Lee:

millco88 - quit being sensible - this is an emotional issue for bigots, and we're witnessing the further disintegration of the Republican party - sit back and enjoy the show.

Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., and the Democratic leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, both sided with supporters of the legislation, a reflection of the bipartisan backing for a bill that was months in the drafting and survived several near-death experiences. In all, 38 Democrats, 23 Republicans and one independent voted for the bill, while 32 Republicans opposed and four Democrats opposed it.

America moves left, and the right goes to bat on an issue that is of little importance. The outcome will be amnesty for illegals, and Bush and the Republicans who supported amnesty won't get any votes from the Hispanics as a result, due to the wing nut bigots in the House who are crying over the fact that Daddy doesn't love them anymore.

Hmmm.So, as an exa... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

So, as an example, if I were a smug ruthless and unprincipled bastard I could:

1. create an employment corporation.
2. advertise in newspapers all over the world.
3. prospective employees pay me $2,000. Basically the current cost for coyotes.
4. I "hire" them and bring them in under the Pence "compromise" guest worker program.
5. They get a "W" worker card, entry into America, the right to bring their families legally into America.
6. I either hire them out to other corporations or just let them find their own work.
7. Repeat about 20,000,000 times.

Gross income: 40,000,000,000
Net income: who really gives a damn at this point?

Anybody want me to repeat this? The Pence "compromise" has NO LIMITS WHATSOEVER.

What a compromise this is. I'm in a swoon. No wonder Bush likes it.

Listkeeper,I think... (Below threshold)
millco88:

Listkeeper,

I think you're going to be shocked how ineffective a fence and increased personnel will be in slowing the "flood". Even a crackdown on employers will only have a limited effect because of how much of our economy is underground.

For example, a primary reason salaries paid is reported is for the tax deductions associated with business expenses. However, if you're willing to swallow that approximately 40% "savings" (effective tax rate) because the labor you're getting is half as expensive, the payments never show up and are paid only in cash. That's just one illustration of how to get around any employer sanctions. There are a lot of other ways.

ed,One diffence from... (Below threshold)
scsiwuzzy:

ed,
One diffence from a coyote of today... we'll know who they are, when they came in and the company doing all of the paperwork/legwork will have a responsibility to keep track of them or risk losing their franchise.
It's not perfect, but it is a damn sight better than today's anarchy.

Lee,
Yeah, anybody that disagrees with you is a bigot.

Why don't we just change im... (Below threshold)

Why don't we just change immigration regulations and beef up our consulates and embassies overseas so they can process more entry applications? Then say to the illegals here: You can--just like any other citizen of Mexico (or some other place)--go to an American consulate in your country and apply for entry. A certain (high and defined) number will be rapidly processed.

That way, we don't end up creating a new system to accomodate the illegal aliens who have lied and cheated to enter. Creating that new system is completely unfair to those that have followed the circuitous regulations to enter our nation legally.

Then say: In two years, after the border is secure, all those not in the States legally will be deported rapidly once found. All local laws of "shelter" or whatever will be declared null and void by an act of Congress.

several things about immigr... (Below threshold)
sean nyc/aa:

several things about immigration in general:
1) I don't know the exact stats, but a lot of illegals come here legally and overstay their visas, so securing the border does not solve the problem alone, but it is a necessary start.

2) I still doubt this guest worker program that has had several iterations. I don't oppose it solely for the possible amnesty it grants, but rather the fact that it creates a new, lower class of person. We had something similar to that already in this country, and I don't think it worked out too well.

3) The whole English is the national language thing I find humorous. Plenty of countries use multiple languages (most of Europe for example), not to mention the fact that the native language (post colonization) of the Western US was Spanish. This is like how French and English are both used in Canada. Get over it, a lot of people in the US speak Spanish and will continue to do so. This is not a bad thing, language skills are valuable in our globalized world.

Lee,Yeah, anybody... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Lee,
Yeah, anybody that disagrees with you is a bigot

Why is this particular issue the one that is splitting apart an entire political party?

Bush spends money like a Saturday night whore and fiscal conservatives suck their thumb-- but talk about the millions of Hispanics - who have been living and working in this country for years without conservatives being up-in-arms - gaining legal status, and the wing nuts start moaning - moaning loud enough to increase the likelihood of Democrats picking up seats this November...

Aren't most of the House holdouts from the south? Are you going to tell me that southern Republicans aren't bigoted?

Yeah, it's pretty much bigotry that is driving this debate. It sure isn't common sense.

Scsiwuzzy,Aren't y... (Below threshold)
millco88:

Scsiwuzzy,

Aren't you assuming that the "employer" wants to do the paperwork associated with hiring these people?? What's to stop them from just paying in cash if that's cheaper from an after-tax standpoint??

I think that's what a lot of people are missing in this whole debate. A significant portion (you can argue the percentage) of economic activity never gets reported, regardless of illegal immigration. That's not going to change just by enacting more laws that will be enforced by the same people doing the enforcing today.

Hmmm.Why ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

Why is this particular issue the one that is splitting apart an entire political party?

Because this has been an issue for over twenty years now. For all that time conservatives have been angry about illegal aliens but we've been forced to swallow that anger in order to generate a majority in Congress. Now that we have that majority, we've found it's largely useless since many of those elected to office don't follow conservative values.

It's basically an example of the straw that broke the camel's back. The current amnesty plans are little different from the same amnesty plans from 1986. Except that these current plans assume that conservatives are thumb-sucking idiots who can be bought off with some idiot platitudes that have no relation to the actual laws being passed.

It's this 20 year lie coupled with the current palpable disdain by some of the GOP that has many conservatives sharpening the knives.

Hmmmm.One... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

One diffence from a coyote of today... we'll know who they are, when they came in and the company doing all of the paperwork/legwork will have a responsibility to keep track of them or risk losing their franchise. It's not perfect, but it is a damn sight better than today's anarchy.

Huh? Why would a company bother to keep the paperwork current? So what if they lose their contract? They could always start a new corporation with a clean slate.

4. Under the Pence compr... (Below threshold)
drjohn:

4. Under the Pence compromise these guest workers are allowed to bring in their parents, spouse and children. Who are then eligible for all federal, state and local social services and educational benefits without restriction.

Yes- and ten million become 40 million. Because of the low wages there is no way these additional people can be supported by the "guest worker" so that means we pick up the tab.

Man, this all sounds too co... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Man, this all sounds too complicated. All want to know is will there be enough Incas around to mow my lawn and clean my house?

"Are you going to tell m... (Below threshold)
cmd:

"Are you going to tell me that Southern Republicans aren't bigoted?"
You've never seen bigotry until you've seen a Northern Democrat, pal.

But still, I liked the way you slyly alluded to the real reason us hate-mongers are angry with the immigration debate - 'cuz, you know. . .the South. You get it, right? The south? Plantations? Jim Crow? Slavery? Keeping the darkies in their place?

You're a card, Lee. Too bad you couldn't have fit in some reference about how this was all the fault of those evil neo-cons like "Vullllfovitz," (wink, wink)and you'd have had the whole lefty smear buffet down pat.

Why dont We just pay Mexico... (Below threshold)
JEFF:

Why dont We just pay Mexico 1 trillion dollars to Annex itself into the United States of Mexico and be done with it,. were big brothering them now and supporting their whole economy, might as well go all the way. at least according to this "compromise" anyways.

I am of course being sarcastic.

This is a better bill than ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

This is a better bill than anything else that I've seen. If it allows children and spouses to come to the US, then I don't like that provision because we will end up paying for them.

This proposal has several ideas that are better than the Senate bill. Guest workers apply by having companies that are looking for people go to foreign countries and select the best people. That means that we don't just take people who are already here illegally. Also, if you want to apply then you have to leave the US. It also means that we can have more diversity by getting people from countries other than Mexico, like Africa and the Caribbean. Democrats may object because they want to build a power base by having a huge amnesty program that is dominated by Mexican people.

If a person wants to legally move from blue card status to green card status and then to citizenship, I think that's a good idea. It takes a lot of hard work. Anyone who is willing to gain citizenship that way is definitely an asset to the country.

Ultimately, that is exactly why I'm against the Senate bill. I have personally seen too many good people work extremely hard to get US citizenship, and I object to the fast-track proposal that will allow people who are breaking the law to get amnesty and citizenship quickly and cheaply -- effectively breaking in line ahead of people who are not breaking the law. I know the Democrats want their votes and the GOP is too chicken and too stupid to fight them, but the Senate bill is a disgrace.

this is an emotional iss... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

this is an emotional issue for bigots

There goes Lee again, using that old bigot line. Not bothering to qualify it now with the word "some" are you?

Give us a break. People come here in direct violation of American Law and we are supposed to just let it happen. And if we oppose a crackdown on said violators (who are of all races) we are all bigots. Good argument, just paint everyone with that broad brush of yours.

By the way, when was the last time you beat your wife?

Ed:You are right: th... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Ed:
You are right: this is the last straw. We've seen the GOP chicken out on critical issues. We've seen them spend money we don't have. We've seen them waste opportunities and fail to lead. But this is too much.

The essential fact of the immigration debate is that it violates the fundamental basis for the rule of law: people who break the Law should not profit by it. I know that simple concepts like that are just too much for some people to get their brains around, but it is how conservatives and libertarians really think about government. I think about basic Principles, and I expect my representatives to do what is right based on those ideas.

Modern Democrats don't worry about priciples. They only have one: fight the Republicans -- everywhere. Concepts like "Equal justice before the law" are OK, as long as the target of the investigation isn't a Democrat or hurt their cause. Then it becomes an inconvenience, and the principle is dropped (e.g. "There was no controlling legal authority.")

I expect more of Republicans; I demand more. Why are Republicans in favor of Immigration Reform? My answer: money and power. They don't want to hold companies that hire illegal workers accountable; they don't want to hurt the economy. And they don't want to offend Hispanic Americans or Mexican citizens who are illegally voting in this country. In simple terms: the GOP is selling out a fundamental principle.

Lee at June 1, 2006 12:3... (Below threshold)
David B:

Lee at June 1, 2006 12:35 PM

Aren't most of the House holdouts from the south? Are you going to tell me that southern Republicans aren't bigoted?

Opps! Lee, don't let that stereotype get in the way, you raving bigot!

Yeah, it's pretty much bigotry that is driving this debate. It sure isn't common sense.

Like you are the only province of common sense, please!

DaveD at June 1, 2006 11:52 AM

The laws currently on the books are truly inadequate - this has been clear for decades.

Actually, the laws currently on the books are quite adequate, they're just not enforced. That's part of the problem.

J.R. said: "People come ... (Below threshold)
Lee:

J.R. said: "People come here in direct violation of American Law and we are supposed to just let it happen."

It's been going on for years and years. No complaints while they washed your cars, cut your grass, and washed your dishes at the local restuarant - but try to allow them a path to become legal - and the whiners whine and whine...

Lee at June 1, 2006 02:4... (Below threshold)
David B:

Lee at June 1, 2006 02:47 PM

It's been going on for years and years. No complaints while they washed your cars, cut your grass, and washed your dishes at the local restuarant - but try to allow them a path to become legal - and the whiners whine and whine...

You are either delusional, disingenuous, or stupid, take your pick. There has been a cry to solve this problem for years from the border states that bear the brunt of the illegal immigration problem.

Remember Lee, Google is your friend . . .

Folks ... Lee is i... (Below threshold)
Martin A. Knight:

Folks ...

Lee is insane. Humoring him only makes it worse.

Be nice and ignore him.

ed,I am talking abou... (Below threshold)
scsiwuzzy:

ed,
I am talking about the hypothetical company you were talking about, one that just deals in getting the W cards.

Lee,
Which states are bearing the brunt of the illegal alien problem? Could it be... the southern ones?

David B, I was being sarcas... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

David B, I was being sarcastic. Poor job I guess.

There has been a cry to ... (Below threshold)
Lee:

There has been a cry to solve this problem for years from the border states that bear the brunt of the illegal immigration problem.

BS. Pure BS.

I've lived in a border state for the last 45 years. There has been not been a public outcry to solve this problem. The public outcry only surfaced when amnesty became an issue. Even border security at a time of war was not enough to get this issue onto the front burner until recently - and we're several years into the war. This issue became hot button only when when Bush raised the prospect of amnesty!

Keep trying - and maybe you will convince yourselves that you aren't bigots. Apparently the Republican party leadership knows better, and has to date had the smarts to ignore your bleatings....

Hmmm.@ kevino... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

@ kevino

Guest workers apply by having companies that are looking for people go to foreign countries and select the best people.

Actually that would be the very last thing to happen unless the workers being sought had very specialised skills.

If you were an employer looking for workers would you:

A. prefer to make the illegal aliens you are already employing legal by routing them through the guest worker program.

B. take a chance on completely unknown workers that you have never met or seen work before who may or may not have the job skills or worth ethic you need.

Which do you think is going to happen? Particularly with an almost non-existant enforcement?

Basically what we'll see is that the inflow of illegal aliens will dramatically increase because that'll be the fastest and most effective way of becoming a legal guest worker.

Hmmmm.I a... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

I am talking about the hypothetical company you were talking about, one that just deals in getting the W cards.

Actually so was I. How would they prevent it from happening?

So I start a guest worker company that imports workers into America, i.e. a *legal* coyote. I send out information to prospective workers that I can bring them legally into America for a $2,000 fee. I bring them in, rack up the income, setup the books so the business goes broke after 6-9 months and then declare bankruptcy.

Start up another company, this time with someone else as the figurehead CEO, and then repeat the process.

...

How are they going to force a bankrupt company to track guest workers? How are they going to prevent shady operators from piping in people through this system?

I just don't see anything that remotely looks like it could prevent operations like this. Instead of the previous Senate bill that would have shoved 66-100 million over 20 years this Pence "compromise" could do 100 million in 10 years. Or more.

There's literally no limit whatsoever.

Lee:Name the state... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Lee:

Name the state, and quote some public opiion polls to show that the citizens of your state aren't concerned or haven't been concerned.

As I said in my comments above, this is based on a simple principle. Amnesty is stupid idea. Been there. Done that. Have millions of more illegal immigrants. Like BillW said, "The working definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."

Of course, the Democrat's motivation is much more interesting. They are fighting against diversity in favor of special treatment for individuals of a certain ethnic group over other ethnic groups because that ethnic group is potentially useful to them. Now THAT's racism!

kevino - Tell this group of... (Below threshold)
Lee:

kevino - Tell this group of tin-foil hatted whirly birds where I live? fat chance. Find polls to prove the bigots on here are liars? I have better things to do with my time - besides - thay always reveal themselves in the fulllness of time. Prove me wrong, if you can.

The rest of your crap ref ethnic diversity is just more bigoted blathering. So far your comments have attacked me specifically, and democrats in general -- speak up if you actually want to discuss the issues... otherwise I'll ignore you like the rest of the trolls.

Ed:Yes, the employ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Ed:

Yes, the employer would prefer to keep the workers that they have and simply make them legal. The trick is: the bill seems to require foreign registration and documentation. Sure, the company could send a representative or use a foreign company to help them provide falsified documentation. However, would it really be worth it? Think about a company that can get a steady supply of low-wage, unskilled workers that are 100% legal. Wouldn't you trade the relative risk associated with new employees against falsifying documents?

And even if such fraud appeared on a wide scale, is it really that bad? Look at what you get (assuming that all of the other House provisions are in place): tighter security, the real-id provisions, and we have documentation of the "blue card" workers. If they are not allowed to have children and spouses here and those dependents apply for benefits, we can revoke their blue cards .

It will be possible to get some illegal aliens valid papers. There is always a way. But that is a far cry from the blanket amnesty that is being proposed. Furthermore, the falsified documents leave a paper trail. If a company that does it is caught, we can start tracking the history of the people that they processed.

Lee:If you won't n... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Lee:

If you won't name the STATE, then you are really scared. OK, try this on for size: name a border state that doesn't consider this issue to be a huge problem. The most liberal, California, has routinely turned in big numbers against your position: "There has been not been a public outcry to solve this problem." Much of the cost data taht has floated around has come from CA groups. Probably no one in your circle of friends cares, but the majority are concerned about this issue.

The rest of your ad hominem attcks won't cover the facts that: (1) you don't have any facts or logic (again), and (2) you can't escape the fact that your political party has once again dropped the principle of "Equal Justice" to favor one ethnic group over another -- because it is a benefit to your party's political goals.

The bad news for Republicans is that they are trying to play the same game.

And what does this say about representative government in American? A huge majority nation-wide are concerned about this issue. I haven't seen any good polling data to support the Senate bill or the President's poisition, and yet both parties are trying to pass this.

Kevino,Do you have... (Below threshold)
millco88:

Kevino,

Do you have anything showing attitudes of Texans towards this issue?? That's where I live and it's never been that big a deal. The approach here is that social services aren't nearly as generous. I think California's different because of the social services provides. You can probably rank the states on that basis and see a correlation on per capita social spending and "concern" about the issue.

Hmmmm.Yes... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

Yes, the employer would prefer to keep the workers that they have and simply make them legal. The trick is: the bill seems to require foreign registration and documentation.

But the Pence compromise only requires the kabuki dance of crossing the border.

I.e. I'm an illegal alien working for you. You want to go legal so you apply to a guest worker registry for me at my home address in Tijuana. They get the papers, mail them to me in Texas. I fill them out, sign them and mail them back to my relatives at home. They send them to the guest worker registry which then preps the papers and issues the card.

Now all I do is travel home, which is now legal for me, pick up the card, have a nice visit with the family, cross back across the border, which is also now legal for me, and get back to work. Now I can apply to bring my parents, wife and three kids to America to join me and also apply for a green card and permanent residency with an eventual application for citizenship.

How is this at all better?

Hmmmm.And... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

And even if such fraud appeared on a wide scale, is it really that bad? Look at what you get (assuming that all of the other House provisions are in place): tighter security, the real-id provisions, and we have documentation of the "blue card" workers. If they are not allowed to have children and spouses here and those dependents apply for benefits, we can revoke their blue cards .

That's just it.

They are allowed to bring their parents, spouse and children.

Any company can request a guest worker registry to bring in any number of workers without limit. If I were a coyote I'd do it this way rather than taking chances. This is just legalised coyotes.

Kevino,D... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Kevino,

Do you have anything showing attitudes of Texans towards this issue?? Do you have anything showing attitudes of Texans towards this issue?? That's where I live and it's never been that big a deal.

It's always been a big deal to a small group of bigots, of which Kevino apparently hangs out with and listens to a lot. It's a been a hot button topic on hate radio too for years, and Kevino must put a lot of weight into that as well. His suggestion that it's a pressing issue to border states is false, and is only an attempt to deflect the "bigot" label. Even California's Gov. Schwarzenegger spoke out against deportation as an impractical solution - but Kevino didn't hear him...

Ed:RE: The kabuki ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Ed:

RE: The kabuki dance of crossing the border
First of all, nice phrase! I like it.
Secondly, yes, it requires them to leave the country and follow the law. That's a good thing, and certainly better than the Senate bill that allows illegal immigrants to report to any international airport to apply.

RE: Applying for a Green Card
Yes, they can apply. Getting one is not a sure thing.

RE: Bringing the family
As I already stated, I am not in favor of that part of this amendment.

RE: Coyote companies
If companies must have jobs (i.e. business need for X number of workers), then the worker import company only gets to bring in that many workers. The worst case is what you already thought of: (1) company A says they need 1000 blue card workers, (2) company B gets them, (3) company A goes out of business, and (4) 1000 workers are on the street with blue cards.

But if they are caught committing a crime, then we have documentation on them (e.g fingerprints). If they firnd work, then that is OK because they really are here legally and can provide documenation. Workers who are already here with blue cards have a leg up on others, but is that really any different than someone who switches jobs?

Bottom line: reward people who follow the law over those who don't, and the blue card process allows the US to control the number of people we invite in.

Lee:I posted a rep... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Lee:

I posted a reply with statistics from CA.
It is being reviewed (probably too many links),
Hopefully, it will be approved: stay tuned.

Bottom line: in no time at all I can find poll data to support my opinion. I don't believe that you can.

Hmmmm....... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

... The worst case is what you already thought of: (1) company A says they need 1000 blue card workers, (2) company B gets them, (3) company A goes out of business, and (4) 1000 workers are on the street with blue cards.

Now multiply this by 5,000 - 10,000. The only limit is on the ability to issue the "W" cards. Now if the cards are issued by the federal government, then that might, only *might*, reduce the numbers somewhat because the federal government is slow as hell.

But if it's handed off to private corporations then there really is no limit. Instead of 3 million crossing illegally a year we could get 3 million a month. I figure people running this type of scam would want to shove as many people through this system as fast as possible before the warning flags come up and everyone begins to realise just what a bad idea this is.

And you know it's going to happen. Right now the coyotes are getting $2,000 a head for illegal entry into America. They could charge that easily for a legal entry into America along with legal documentation, the right to work and the right to bring their families along. Hell they could probably charge $3,000, or more, and it would still be worth it.

If I were them I'd do it. None of this 3 people crammed into a car trunk nonsense. That's chicken feed that amounts to $6,000 a trip. This way you can rent a damn bus! $3,000 a head and 100 per bus. Run just one busload through the system and into America and you just grossed $300,000 USD and, since we're coyotes here, non-taxable baby!

A over a quarter-million dollars for legally importing 100 guest workers into America. And they'd pay up too because otherwise they'd have to convince some American businessman to take a chance on them, which could take time or not even happen. Cough up the cash and you're guaranteed a legal entry. Plus conservatives hate the bill so you know they'd be trying to shut it down.

So you have to get in now while it's still good, and that'll cost you cash.

And with that profit motive the flow of guest workers would be like a firehose.

Hmmmm.Bot... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

Bottom line: reward people who follow the law over those who don't, and the blue card process allows the US to control the number of people we invite in.

Again. There are *no* numerical limits to the number of guest workers allowed in under the Pence compromise.

So where are you getting the idea that the "process allows the US to control the number of people we invite in"?

Are there any other definitions of "no numerical limits"?

ed:My read of the ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

ed:

My read of the bill says that Companys can hire people that they need. This is very similar to companies that sponsor workers to get green cards. That places limits on the number of workers. If you want to strengthen the provisions so that it works more like green cards, fine. If you want to license the companies that do it, that's fine too. If you want to require companies that release blue card employees to turn over the names and reason for dismissal, that's fine.

In terms of nontaxable income, that's wrong. You're talking about a company doing public business: that's not cash-under-the table. Officers or companies that keep invalid books get put in jail.

Rep. Pence's proposal state... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Rep. Pence's proposal states:

Private worker placement agencies that we could call "Ellis Island Centers" will be licensed by the federal government to match willing guest workers with jobs in America that employers cannot fill with American workers. U.S. employers will engage the private agencies and request guest workers. In a matter of days, the private agencies will match guest workers with jobs, perform a health screening, fingerprint them and provide the appropriate information to the FBI and Homeland Security so that a background check can be performed, and provide the guest worker with a visa granted by the State Department. The visa will be issued only outside of the United States.

. . .

Now, for some less interesting details. First, the number of guest workers will be limited. After the program is up and running, there will be a period of three years when the market and the needs of U.S. employers will set the limit on the number of guest workers. Not letting the market and the needs of employers govern the number of guest workers initially will prevent illegal aliens from being willing to self-deport. No one wants to be one number over the limit, and that person will want to come here or stay here illegally.

But, after three years of this program, we should be in a vastly different situation from where we are now. The great majority of illegal aliens will have self-deported and come back into a confirmed job. The number of those who don't should be a manageable number for law enforcement to pursue and employers to terminate. Therefore, after three years of the program, a reasonable limit on the number of W Visas will be determined by the Department of Labor based on employment statistics, employer needs and other research. After the three-year window has closed, this limit will be strictly enforced. Thus, the three-year window will provide even greater incentive to those who are currently illegal to enter into and comply with the new guest worker program.

There also will be a limit on the amount of time a guest worker can spend in America. Guest workers will be allowed to renew their W Visas, but only for a period of up to six years. At that point, the guest should decide whether to return home or enter the separate process of seeking citizenship. We cannot have people coming to America as permanent guest workers. That is why having a six-year limit is important. It keeps the meaning of the word "guest" in guest worker.

Hmmmm.My ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

My read of the bill says that Companys can hire people that they need.

Frankly it's starting to become frustrating because you're simply NOT READING WHAT I'M WRITING.

I'm not going to go through the exercise of writing everything all over again, yet again. If you have any specific questions, after re-reading my previous comments, then I'll address those.

But one point I must make is that you are completely and utterly wrong.

ed:I'm sorry that ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

ed:

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but what you have written seems to be a belief that companies established to process workers will simply hand out blue cards to whoever shows up and pays them. That is not correct.

The proposal says that US companies have to document that they have X jobs that need to be filled by foreign workers. They can get the people themselves or deal with another company to do the paperwork. But the number of people who can be brought in by this process is the original X. It's not limitless.

You keep saying that the "coyotes" can process as many people as they want. That is not what is being proposed. In fact, if you can show wide-spread abuse of the green card system, let's here it: this is very similar.

Companies going under will cause some problems. Fraud will also cause some problems. But these are minor compared with the current chaos, and the risks to the bad guys are just not worth the amount of money to be made.




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