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With friends like Atrios, who needs enemas?

Boy, you never can tell just what's going to strike a nerve. And my piece Sunday morning about Francine Busby, the Democrat looking to succeed Randy "Duke" Cunningham in Congress from California, generated a hell of a lot stronger reaction than I expected. Hell, I blew away the Caption Contest (tm) by over 50% in comments, and around here that's the 500-pound gorilla of postings.

However, when I find that a bunch of the regulars are disagreeing with me, I have to start wondering if I was either wrong, or misspoke. And when I find myself singled out for praise by such "luminaries" as Crooks and Liars and Atrios, I am pretty sure I didn't say what I meant.

First of all, Atrios (king of the "Open Thread," the laziest trick in blogging. I don't particularly care for when Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs does it, and that's only once or twice a day. My brief sojourns into Atrios' space (in full biohazard suit and after extensive shots) have seen as many as half a dozen in one day, with the same cut and pasted text. But I seriously digress.) mischaracterizes my position. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was either too lazy or too stupid to grasp what I wrote, and not accuse him of deliberately lying about it.

Atrios (and those who took his worthless word for it) said I called the Busby/illegal alien flap "manufactured." That means that the outrage was fabricated, concocted out of whole cloth, and a fraud. That characterization is, in and of itself, a fraud.

The sole person to blame for the Bussby brouhaha is Busby herself. Nobody put those words in her mouth; she opened it up and shoved her feet right in there. What I said was that it was overblown.

Busby's own words make it clear: her concerns for illegal aliens are making sure they get the education and health care to which they are entitled. No worries about getting them to legalize their status, no calls for enforcement of existing laws, just making sure they get all the government assistance they are "entitled" to.

Her statement, her precise words, make it abundantly clear that she is willing to accept the support of anyone to win her election:

"Well sure, everybody can help. Yeah, absolutely. You can all help. Yeah, you don't need papers for voting, you don't need to be a registered voter to help."

She goes on:

"I will do everything I can to support you, to promote policies that are supportive of your education and health care and families, but I can't, I can't bring people to vote for me. Only you can do that."

(Thanks to commenter GS for the video link)

The audio makes it clear she is saying that her campaign will take whatever assistance is offered, from whoever offers it. They will not ask potentially embarrassing questions about one's voting status, or even one's immigration status, if one shows up and offers to stuff envelopes, man phones, hold signs, or any of the countless other grunt-level jobs in a political campaign.

What Busby did NOT do was explicitly solicit votes from those not legally entitled to vote. She stopped just short of that.

From what little I know of Busby, she would not be morally offended if a whole bunch of illegal aliens did commit fraud and voted for her. In fact, I'd be surprised if the did not object to the slightest efforts to prevent such fraud, such as asking for voters to show identification before voting. (Hmm... here's an idea. Give every voter a free Sudafed for showing up. That way, they HAVE to show some identification!) I'll even go so far as to say she quite possibly believes that everyone who lives in her district is entitled to vote, whether or not they're registered to vote or even citizens.

But she did not openly call for it. Such an action is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. Such proof is simply lacking in this case.

So, please, voters of California's 50th District, reject her campaign. Send her back to her well-deserved obscurity, along with all the rest of the lobbyists for the illegal aliens, those who like having an indentured underclass to do our dirty work for slave wages, who want to cheapen American citizenship and make it worthless, who want to spit in the faces of all those who spend years and years to become citizens the right, legal way.

But don't do it over the "she solicited voter fraud" argument. Don't give her and her ilk any more excuse to claim victim status, to say that she lost because of "smears" and "lies." They're going to anyway; we should not let their whines have even the slightest grouding in reality.


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» SEIXON linked with Moderately Defending Busby

Comments (40)

"you don't need papers for ... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

"you don't need papers for voting"

I guess it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Her wording in those quotes seems a little odd. Maybe you could argue that technically she didn't solicit votes directly which she is aware could have dire consequences. But the way she said what she said sure brings the idea to mind. Was that coincidence or deliberate? I believe the latter is quite possible.

It depends on how you choos... (Below threshold)
MikeB:

It depends on how you choose to read the sentence.

Some are reading:
"you don't need papers for voting"

JayTea is reading:
"you don't need papers for voting...to help [with the campaign]"

I'm guessing she likely intended to say the latter, but the phrasing was poor and even might have been a bit of a Freudian slip.

- MikeB

Clearly, Busby did not stan... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Clearly, Busby did not stand in front of a group of people and suggest that you don't need to be registered in order to vote. You are to be commended, Jay, for listening and thinking, instead of reacting and jumping for her throat as did a lot of your brothers and sisters in the blogosphere.

It will be interesting to see how this race turns out. The flap over what Busby said could possibly end up actually helping her campaign. People in this country are sick and tired of being lied to, and I would not be surprised at all to see the lies spread around Busby's statement backfiring on Busby's opponent.


Isn't Jay just demonstratin... (Below threshold)
millco88:

Isn't Jay just demonstrating that he feels Busby isn't a total moron?? Because wouldn't she have to be to really mean the first choice in MikeB's two approaches??

But I think the larger issue is the misuse of quotes. Isn't using truncated quotes one of the pet peeves virtually all bloggers, regardless of partisanship, have about the MSM??

I think what Jay's shown on this issue is consistency in a principle that you look at a quote in context and not just a snippet. Perhaps you disagree with his take, but it's hard to call it unreasonable. I find it refreshing.

Lee -" The flap over what B... (Below threshold)
Michael:

Lee -" The flap over what Busby said could possibly end up actually helping her campaign. People in this country are sick and tired of being lied to, and I would not be surprised at all to see the lies spread around Busby's statement backfiring on Busby's opponent."

Yeah right...in your libby dreams buddy. She is toast.

I agree with Jay. I initia... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

I agree with Jay. I initially thought his analysis was wrong, but it's clear if you listen to the tape that she is soliciting help and not votes. She meant you don't need to be able to vote to help.

And, as Jay points out, that does not let her off the hook for soliciting illegals to help her campaign, and telling them she'll help with their claims.

You could actually take her... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

You could actually take her last quote both ways. She can't bring people to vote for her but they can could also be interpreted as a solicitation.

The real issue, and the elephant most want to avoid is the simple fact that the Democratic Party could care less about the plight of immigrants and views them as a source of votes to return them to power. Period. It is no secret in the Hispanic community. It's openly discussed. I am a legal citizen of this country but I hear what my neighbors and friends say.

That's not to say the Republican Party is much better in courting the vote, but on the street the only thing the Democratic Party hasn't done is just set up an open booth handing out money for votes.

That's why people jumped on Busby...because she did let slip their true agenda. It's become so ingrained they don't even realize just how ridiculous it is.

You're right Jay.B... (Below threshold)
Semanticleo:

You're right Jay.

Better backstroke awhile lest your fate resemble the
refugee from PoliPundit, Lorie Byrd.

I still maintain that while... (Below threshold)

I still maintain that while that may not be what she meant to say, this kind of Freudian slip is revealing what she was intending to remain unsaid.

Jay,You miss the p... (Below threshold)
JohnMc:

Jay,

You miss the point of the fact that she asked for help based on a query from someone possibly an illegal. If an employer hires someone that used fraud to acquire that job and the employer knew then the employer can go to jail. If Busby in her zeal hands that person political flyers to hand out she has committed a felony.

Remember this, even if you volunteer to do something for the bequest of another YOU ARE AN EMPLOYEE. Even if it is without pay. So Busby unwittingly has has solicited for and is prepartory to committing a felony of this country's employment laws.

Leo, go back to being Olive... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Leo, go back to being Oliver's butt-boy. I hear he needs a research assistant to find new material and catch-phrases to rip off.

J.

JohnMc, I really don't beli... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

JohnMc, I really don't believe employment laws cover unpaid volunteers on a political campaign. They are not "employees" by any standard I've ever seen, and therefore not covered by employment laws. Paid staff, absolutely, but not volunteers.

J.

John Mc,I think vi... (Below threshold)
millco88:

John Mc,

I think virtually everyone would agree that there is a difference in the terms employee and volunteer. There certainly is legally which is the basis of your argument. One gets paid; the other doesn't. To equate the two is just dishonest, especially when you're doing it to score political points.

jpm, It would be h... (Below threshold)
Malibu Stacy:

jpm,

It would be helpful to have the man's question in the original Spanish, but I'm guessing that Busby's phrasing is most likely the result of her translator taking the Spanish phrase "papeles para votar" (voter registration) and giving it a literal reading as "papers to vote" or "papers for voting." At least that's what it sounds like the translator says in the audio I've heard.

I think it's a stretch to believe that the man would openly confess to being in this country illegally by saying that he doesn't have "papeles de la inmigración." But, stranger things have happened.

For what it's worth, Jay, m... (Below threshold)

For what it's worth, Jay, my reaction to this matter was very much like yours, even without watching the video. I simply assumed that a political candidate in San Diego wouldn't say what amounts to, "You can vote without registering," and actually mean it that way. It had to be a misinterpretation.

Well the thread on your oth... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Well the thread on your other post was a beast so i stayed away, but good work on this one Jay, despite the lefty avalanche and righty backlash. For those of you who still believe that Busby was soliciting voter fraud in public, you are the same as the DU kids who will believe anything, anything at all negative, as long as it is about a Republican (or Karl Rove!). It's kind of pathetic, really.

There's plenty of material for conservatives to go after with Busby; there's no need to make shit up.

Either way you interpret wh... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

Either way you interpret what Busby said -- it was stupid.

But, what I've not heard anyone ask -- what was she doing campaigning to a bunch of illegals in the first place?

The answer to that question will frame the intended meaning of her remarks.

Is this some new Dem campaign policy? Court the illegals and promise them benefits so their "legal" family members will vote for them?

It is an odd day, indeed, w... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

It is an odd day, indeed, when mantis is the one who "gets" what I'm saying perfectly.

Just when I think I got this world figured out...

J.

Ugh, and thanks for making ... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

Ugh, and thanks for making me check out that Atrios thread. Mostly it was a bunch of racists calling Michelle Malkin a racist for expecting everyone to be treated equally under the law.

As far as Atrios' site, how does someone get so much attention for a blog that has absolutely no content?

It's just one big echo chamber of open threads.

There is no "there" there.

An empty space for empty heads.

It is an odd day, indeed... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

It is an odd day, indeed, when mantis is the one who "gets" what I'm saying perfectly.

Might have a little to do with today's date?

Is it just me or does it ap... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

Is it just me or does it appear a bit unseemly that a candidate for the US Congress is recruiting illegal aliens to work as campaign volunteers?

Hmmmm.Joh... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

JohnMc, I really don't believe employment laws cover unpaid volunteers on a political campaign. They are not "employees" by any standard I've ever seen, and therefore not covered by employment laws. Paid staff, absolutely, but not volunteers.

That's rather absurd isn't it?

So if a volunteer smashes his car through someone's house the campaign isn't partially liable?

And what about the immigration status of the illegal alien? Isn't it illegal to aid and abet someone violating federal law? If you're knowingly using illegal aliens as volunteer unpaid labor, aren't you still violating the law?

Hmmmm.It ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

It is an odd day, indeed, when mantis is the one who "gets" what I'm saying perfectly.

Oh I get what you're saying. I simply completely and utterly disagree with what you're saying.

At no point at all during this speech did Busby correct herself and state explicitly that you DO need papers to vote.

That right there frankly torpedoes your assertions.

Might have a little to d... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Might have a little to do with today's date?

Does that mean the devil made me do it, or the devil made Jay do it, or what? Wait a minute now, 6606 isn't the mark of the beast! Fooled again. Damn you Screwtape!

At no point at all durin... (Below threshold)
mantis:

At no point at all during this speech did Busby correct herself and state explicitly that you DO need papers to vote.

Because she wasn't saying that to begin with. She said something, then immediately clarified. Here, I'll add something to her quote to try and make it clearer:

Yeah, you don't need papers for voting, (I mean) you don't need to be a registered voter, to help."

She clarified that they didn't need to be a registered voter, i.e. have "papers for voting", to help with the campaign.

It's really not that hard to understand. Maybe you and the DU kids have more in common than you think.

Hmmmm.For... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

For what it's worth, Jay, my reaction to this matter was very much like yours, even without watching the video. I simply assumed that a political candidate in San Diego wouldn't say what amounts to, "You can vote without registering," and actually mean it that way. It had to be a misinterpretation.

Why?

To my knowledge the speech wasn't being videotaped or recorded by any of Busby's staff. It's only because of a member of The Minutemen was there and had a recording device that we have a recording at all. Otherwise it would either be an unsupported allegation or it wouldn't have ever surfaced at all.

So why *wouldn't* Busby be soliciting illegal aliens to vote for her? What prevents them from doing so? Sure you can assume that she wasn't, but what proof can you show that this wasn't exactly her intention?

"you don't need papers for voting"

How much more explicit can you get?

Not really, ed. If soliciti... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Not really, ed. If soliciting illegal votes was not her INTENTION, then it would not likely occur to her to disavow it. It's still plausibly deniable as a verbal gaffe.

Lord, I hate defending her. But the accusation is so huge, it needs absolutely irrefutable evidence to back it up. In this case, there are plausible (not even probable, but plausible) explanations for it. There are so many other good things to rip her over; this one is too easily refuted to be used. It lets her defenders use it as a cudgel to pummel her attackers on all the other fronts.

"When you strike against a king, be sure to kill him." This is not a sure-fire weapon, and should not be relied upon to sink her candidacy.

J.

So why *wouldn't* Busby ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

So why *wouldn't* Busby be soliciting illegal aliens to vote for her? What prevents them from doing so?

Oh, I don't know. Not being able to register, maybe?

Hmmm."Wel... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

"Well sure, everybody can help. Yeah, absolutely. You can all help. Yeah, you don't need papers for voting, you don't need to be a registered voter to help."

First of all, why are those commas there? Why and how was that phrase interpreted in this fashion?

Isn't this just as valid, and far more precise?

"Well sure, everybody can help. Yeah, absolutely. You can all help. Yeah, you don't need papers for voting. You don't need to be a registered voter to help."

Aren't many people judging this phrase simply because they're reading it and not listening to it? When I listened to this portion of the speech I distinctly interpreted it to be periods, not commas. This isn't an example of a run-on sentence. They are distinctly separate sentences.

So why is it acceptable to see the first portion of the phrase in this textual form:

Yeah, absolutely. You can all help.

Rather than:

Yeah, absolutely, you can all help.

Simply put because there's a distinct pause that implies a period. And that very same pause in between

Yeah, you don't need papers for voting.
You don't need to be a registered voter to help.

If you have a different opinion, that's fine. Just *prove* your case rather than assuming that I must agree with you.

Hmmmm.Oh,... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

Oh, I don't know. Not being able to register, maybe?

So.

http://www.fec.gov/votregis/pdf/ca.pdf

For California all you need is your Driver's License # in block 6 to prove that you're eligible to vote. Otherwise it's on an honor system.

Yeah. That's a real barrier that is.

Hmmm.Not ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

Not really, ed. If soliciting illegal votes was not her INTENTION, then it would not likely occur to her to disavow it. It's still plausibly deniable as a verbal gaffe.

But Jay she disavowed it *after* it became a national scandal!

That's the level of evidence necessary?

For California all you n... (Below threshold)
mantis:

For California all you need is your Driver's License # in block 6 to prove that you're eligible to vote. Otherwise it's on an honor system.

And you can't get a valid California Driver's License if you are an illegal alien. This is mostly thanks to Gov. Schwarzanegger and despite Senator Gilbert Cedillo efforts.

Jay Tea, millico88,<p... (Below threshold)
JohnMc:

Jay Tea, millico88,

I will beg to differ. Look up the Law of Agency in any Black's Law book. And I also have an expirement you can conduct.

Go to any Boys and Girls Club or BSofA and ask to volunteer. My experience here in the Dallas area is that you will fill out an application, pee in a cup and fill out a disclaimer for background check. I know this because it has been requested of me from volunteering here. That is no different than if you went to work for Home Depot.

But please don't just take my word for it. Consider these links:

linky1
linky2
linky3

Now the point is, for liability purposes, groups that use volunteers are going to treat said persons as employees. And if you are taking out Comp Ins on them then that org has made a declarative action that such persons are employees. The RNC and DNC and local political entities are no more exempt from such laws as any other employer.

Depending on state requirements, for most, volunteers are employees in the eyes of many states. And we are talking Calif. here. The land of the over regulated.

Wish to revise your thinking gentlemen??

Hmmmm.And... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

And you can't get a valid California Driver's License if you are an illegal alien. This is mostly thanks to Gov. Schwarzanegger and despite Senator Gilbert Cedillo efforts.

Yeah because nobody in the entire world is able to *forge* a California driver's license.

What's even more fantastic is that nobody has *ever* gotten a California driver's license without being either a legal immigrant or a citizen.

And, best of all, I'm sure that legal alien residents would never take the opportunity to directly influence elections that might affect the immigration status of their relatives and friends. Particularly since the voting rolls is on a honor system that rarely, if ever, gets audited for fraudulent voters.

Yeah. Sure. Right.

And you can't get a vali... (Below threshold)

And you can't get a valid California Driver's License if you are an illegal alien.

You think they check the validity of every Driver's License number? My guess is that lots of Democratic county clerks "neglect" to do that before signing them onto the vote rolls.

Jay Tea, millico88,<p... (Below threshold)
JohnMc:

Jay Tea, millico88,

I have responded, but I guess I exceeded the number of permissible links for the site because it is being held for review.

Hopefully Jay will look at it and let it go. But consider this, in many states volunteers are employees and workers comp is taken out on them like any other employee in order to comply wiht the liability laws. And in Calif., the land of the over regulated, I can only hazard that this is the case. Google it and you will see what I mean.

Hmmm.Yeah if you u... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

Yeah if you use the link tag then the system will hold your comment until doomsday. :)

But if you simply cut & paste the raw URL, it works fine. Ugly, but fine.

John Mc,It still d... (Below threshold)
millco88:

John Mc,

It still doesn't change the fact that virtually everyone can distinguish between an employee and a volunteer. It's not that difficult a concept so that we have to go to Black's for clarification.

Your point is essentially that liability from volunteer's actions (A) = some responsibility on the part of the organization to get responsible people (B) = similar responsibility of an employer verifying legal status (C). I don't think you can claim that A and C are equivalent.

Just because they have the organization in common doesn't mean the standards are the same, especially when we're talking about a political campaign.

Yeah because nobody in t... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Yeah because nobody in the entire world is able to *forge* a California driver's license.

Well, that is a different issue, now isn't it? By that standard, we should be worried about minors and out-of-staters voting as well as illegals. Anyway, you can forge an ID but the number either belongs to someone else or is unassigned.

You think they check the validity of every Driver's License number?

I don't know. That should be done, obviously.

My guess is that lots of Democratic county clerks "neglect" to do that before signing them onto the vote rolls.

My guess is that Gary Coleman's votes for the recall were all from aliens, the extraterrestrial kind. Guessing is fun, isn't it?

My brief sojourns into A... (Below threshold)

My brief sojourns into Atrios' space (in full biohazard suit and after extensive shots)

Thank you for not infecting the rest of us with your insanity.

XOXOX,
Liberals




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