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Reaction To News Rove Won't Be Indicted

Jay and Kevin have already posted news that Karl Rove won't be indicted in the Plame investigation, so if you haven't read their posts yet, start there.

I am not going to brave the Democratic Underground swamp for reaction. Luckily I won't even have to because Hugh Hewitt has done it already and Mark Coffey has even categorized the lefty reactions to the news.

Tom Maguire at Just One Minute, which has been the "go to" spot for Plame news, has a good roundup and Stop the ACLU has a list of reaction links.


Michelle Malkin has declared it Rove Derangement Syndrome Day.

Lifelife Pundits have a Matthews suicide watch.

Scott Ott explains why this news proves the GOP is doomed.

Lawhawk has my favorite post title.

GOP and the City has my favorite take:

Karl Rove has avoided lethal injection (for now). As Rovie walks away, his creation (Tropical Storm Alberto) has weakened faster than Patrick Fitzgerald's case against him.


Had Rove been indicted, you can be assured that Alberto would have been turned into a hurricane by Rove's Weather Generator (which is stored in his garage). Instead of reports of Karl Rove's arrest; the news would be filled with images of weathermen weatherpeople standing in knee deep water, as buildings fly down the street, telling us there are high winds and rising water. Want more proof? Who is the Attorney General? Alberto Gonzalez!

UPDATE: Don't miss Pat Curley's "The Night Before Fitzmas."

UPDATE II: Pat Hynes caught Karl Rove on video in New Hampshire last night making an interesting joke. I am guessing he got the good news before this morning.

UPDATE III: Sister Toldjah makes an excellent point (I am sorry I missed her post earlier) that Howard Dean pronounces Rove guilty, but gave OBL the presumption of innocence a couple of years ago. Another excellent example of Bush Derangement Syndrome.


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Comments (76)

Of course Rove's ind... (Below threshold)

Of course Rove's indictment failed.

Most people don't know this, but the star witneess against him was that Zarqawi guy. He was there, and saw the whole thing. Now that he's dead, the coverup is complete.

I want to hear the resident... (Below threshold)
Michael:

I want to hear the resident moonbats(Mak44, Lee, Jp2) comments on this...but they won't...cowards.

You underestimate them, Mic... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

You underestimate them, Michael. I'm sure they're just getting their talking points from DailyKos. I'm sure we'll hear something soon...

The historical record has n... (Below threshold)
RA:

The historical record has never changed a liberals world view. That is why Ann Coulter is right. Air heads like Bill O'Reilly think he is changing liberal minds with persuasive arguements. He is not. The best we can do is make it personal and punish them publically every chance we get.

Now go out and shout down your least favorite liberal. Make sure you call them traitorous scum. LOL

I love it when a plan comes... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

I love it when a plan comes together!

Oh well, I guess 1 indictme... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Oh well, I guess 1 indictment (the highest ever?) will suffice. Dean was right though, Rove has his sin, and it's a good day for the WH, but not for America.

You pathetic fools...... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

You pathetic fools...

It's obvious the Rovian Hurricane Machine was hard at work generating a hurricane to level destruction of Biblical proportions to distract from his indictment.

Since the indictment didn't come he turned down the hurricane into a fizzle....much like the Plame case.

Just read your comment Mich... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Just read your comment Michael - clearly, if the first thing you are thinking of is me when news breaks, I'm all up in your head.

JP2 - "Dean was right thoug... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

JP2 - "Dean was right though, Rove has his sin, and it's a good day for the WH, but not for America."

You are so pathetic and pitiful.

Good argument. See if you c... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Good argument. See if you can rely on something other than name-calling though, it might come off better.

Word, jp2. Ever see the Sou... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

Word, jp2. Ever see the Southpark where Cartman is rolling around in his sleep, fantasizing about killing hippies? Well, Michael = Cartman, hippies = moonbats, and I = heh.

Good comment @ 2:25, Big Mo. Rather than address his statement, you call him names. Do you really think it's good for your democracy to see Rove investigated like this? I love the political climate in the United States. The architect of this entire administration escapes indictment in some pretty shady business, and this is a victory? You know what's better than that, though, wingnuts? Not getting investigated in the first place.

I kinda feel bad for Karl. He would have had a better chance finding true love in prison than in the real world.

The liberals will be disapo... (Below threshold)
Eon the terrible:

The liberals will be disapointed they want his head even with out being indited

Eon, howzabout you learn ho... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

Eon, howzabout you learn how to spell "indicted" before speculating as to how liberals will feel about it? Blogs aren't the place for nit-pickery and spell-checkery, but buddy, you need to better articulate yourself if you want anyone to take you seriously.

jp2 - that was the whole po... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

jp2 - that was the whole point, pal. You just KNOW Rove is guilty of something, anything, right? Right? He has to be guilty, right?

Because you and HoDean say so, right?

over at the funky 'town mee... (Below threshold)
moflicky:

over at the funky 'town meeting' at truthout.org, I posted this and was immediatly banned and the post removed:

When everything you believe is wrong...

Watching this thread and similar ones on DU and elsewhere, this I know to be true: There's probably a 12 step program out there for this affliction.

You believe, with all your heart, soul, mind and body that a story is correct. You base your belief, not on evidence, logic or reason, but simply because you want to believe so badly, the thought of it being wrong invalidates your very existence and that makes your head hurt.

When the story is shown to be wrong:

First comes denial. Incredulity is your watchword. "Luskin Lies!"

Next comes blame. "TruthOut lies!"

Then, shifting blame. RRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE!!!!! YOU BASTARD, YOU SET US UP!!!!!!!

And here we are back at square one. The object of your hatred now becomes the source again of your current pain.

A new word is coined, and "Rovian" replaces "Machiavellian" in the lexicon.

So devious, so manipulative, so evil, so, so, damned Rovian is he, that he is capable of duping even the smartest of the smart, the skeptic's skeptic, the country's watchdogs who question authority, speak truth to power, suspect everyone and suffer no fools - the American fringe left.

I am simply in awe. My inestimable respect for his powers grows by the minute.

Is there ANYTHING Karl Rove can't do?

Oh Bemused give it a rest a... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Oh Bemused give it a rest already and get over yourself.

The architect of this entire administration escapes indictment in some pretty shady business, and this is a victory?

Shady? He didn't get indicted because he didn't do anything wrong!!

You know what's better than that, though, wingnuts? Not getting investigated in the first place.

Wrong again. Just because you are under investigation does not make you guilty of anything or mean you did anything wrong. Sometimes the one doing the investigating is wrong. Take for example what's going on with the Duke Lacrosse players. It sure seems like they didn't do anything wrong even they have already been indicted!

I kinda feel bad for Karl. He would have had a better chance finding true love in prison than in the real world.

Yes, slap people around for not addressing arguments and/or calling people names and then drop that little gem.

Blogs aren't the place for nit-pickery and spell-checkery, but buddy, you need to better articulate yourself if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Yes, heed your own advice. We don't need the spelling police around here. And you really should be worrying about people taking you seriously.

moflicky - I believe that m... (Below threshold)
James Brewer:

moflicky - I believe that may be the same reaction that will be seem from them on the night of Nov 7th.

Bemused: "Do you really ... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Bemused: "Do you really think it's good for your democracy to see Rove investigated like this?" No...it was a complete sham from start to finish. A "special" prosecutor with unlimited funds went fishing. But didn't catch ANYTHING.

Bemused: "The architect of this entire administration escapes indictment in some pretty shady business"

"escapes indictment"?? escapes??
His "escape" was accomplished the old-fashioned way: HE DIDN'T FREAKING DO ANYTHING WRONG!!

Likewise, I have "escaped" indictment for over 50 years...but NOT ever committing a crime! (ok, I rolled through a Stop-sign once...but I paid the fine)

CongressFelon Jefferson is TAPED taking $100,000 in bribes...and then FREEZE-WRAPS the damn stuff ('cause he always wanted a supply of cold-cash, I guess). Now THAT'S one indictable dude!!!

Heheheheheh.... (Below threshold)

Heheheheheh.


Rove set them up the bomb!

:-D

Justrand - So YOU'RE the on... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Justrand - So YOU'RE the one who rolled through that stop sign! Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald will be paying you a call shortly. Prepare to be frog-marched to prison!

Good grief, the moonbats built themselves up so much with this nonsense, it's like they're on speed. They get high then come crashing down. But they need an even higher fix to get high. That's why so many of them are now prepping their needles for Haditha, but that one will blow up in their faces too.

If they would actually concentrate on being FOR something besides hate hate hate hate Bush, the GOP and conservatives, they might actually go somewhere.

But no. The moonbats would rather get high on fantasies. And they just keep lurching from fix to fix. I can't imagine living like that.

Heheheheheh -- civil suit c... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

Heheheheheh -- civil suit coming! That'll prove something...

Rove is a public figure, J.... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

Rove is a public figure, J.R., so yeah, I can call him names and make fun of the fact that he's probably a lonely little boy on the inside and still chastise others for doing so on here. Two. Different. Things.

I never said Rove was guilty of anything; he may have made a deal, though, right? I did say that having Bush's puppeteer paraded in and out of a courtroom, over a leak that never should have happened, does not do wonders for the public's confidence in government.

Hey Justrand, Jefferson should go to jail 'cause he broke the law. Does saying that make me a Republican?

Here's another moonbat fant... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

Here's another moonbat fantasy for you, Big Mo: the GOP are perceived by the public as failures. Dubya might plateau at 40% (which you'll spin as a good thing); and Congress will be more Democratic come November, although the shift may not be tectonic.

Blame the media; blame the insurgency; blame Canada. But don't blame the party in control of Congress and the Executive branch.

Here's another fantasy for ... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Here's another fantasy for ya bemused: Democratic congress in November. The public isn't exactly thrilled with the GOP right now, but they definately don't like the Jackasses at all.

And I do, in part, blame the media, speaking as a former member of said media.

That's o.k. Bemusie.... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

That's o.k. Bemusie.

You live in a country that allows free speech; protected by the U.S. military.

Speak on, musie, and thank a G.I.!

Lorie - not sure where I ca... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Lorie - not sure where I can pass this on, but we have our second Medal of Honor nominee for the war:

"David Ballavia is a former Army Staff Sergeant who served in the First Infantry Division (Task Force 2-2). He has been recommended for the Medal of Honor, nominated for the Distinguished Service Cross, and received the Silver Star, the Bronze Star (v), and the Conspicuous Service Cross. Recently he was invited to attend the President's State of the Union address as an honored guest. He is a writer and a tireless veterans' advocate. He lives in Batavia, New York with his wife and son. David is heading back to Iraq in June (with Wade Zirkle) to evaluate and report on US forces, Iraqi Forces and the situation on the Iraqi Street."

My Vast Right Wing Conspiracy has the full details (as well as some salty language). Apparently, this former SSG is one bad-ass that would make John Wayne salute.

Its sure a pity about the 4... (Below threshold)
japh:

Its sure a pity about the 40% plateau. Bush is defiently not going to win in 2006 and forget about 2008.

Rove made a deal? Haha, I ... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Rove made a deal? Haha, I read that at DailyKos where liberals refuel their alternative-energy minds with horsey-poo.

The "deal" is called agreeing to testify truthfully in exchange for not getting indicted. Seems like a fair deal to me.

However, I'm always game for a good liberal conspiracy theory, so why don't we open the floor to any liberal who wants to articulate what Mulder and Scully found when they opened the door to Patrick Fitzgerald's secret chamber.

Bemused,You can ca... (Below threshold)
millco88:

Bemused,

You can call anyone names if you want to; however, if you actually want to sway someone's opinion, rather than engage in mindless cheerleading, you might want to try a different approach. If you think a logical approach is a waste of time, then what does that say about you than you're willing to also engage in that type of behavior??

This story is just another example of what's wrong with political discourse in this country and why NEITHER party is held in high esteem by a majority.

We won the only war we foug... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

We won the only war we fought against you, Les. ;)

And as far as me having to thank a GI, I'm not British, or French; I'm Canadian. We contributed a helluva lot of troops and manufacturing resources to both World Wars. In fact, we took Vimy Ridge in 1917 with 40,000 troops, whereas the British and French had failed with hundreds of thousands. We were involved in that conflict years before the US. And we more than carried our weight in Normandy and throughout the European theatre in WW II, not to mention training many of the British pilots who held off the Luftwaffe while our merchant seamen braved packs of U-boats to keep the English people in the war. All of this was happening before the US joined the fight.

Our army is small because we don't need military protection. Hell, neither do you--surely the way to most effectively combat terrorism is with coordinated information sharing amongst free nations and preventative domestic security measures, in conjunction with precision air strikes and incursions when the situation requires it. It would be nice if every militant Islamic totalitarian would fight conventionally, but unfortunately they get to pick their tactics.

"Its sure a pity about the ... (Below threshold)

"Its sure a pity about the 40% plateau. Bush is defiently not going to win in 2006 and forget about 2008."

japh, you,are absolutely correct; he won't be on the ballot.

Don't lecture me about logi... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

Don't lecture me about logic, millco88.

Rove MAY have committed a crime and brokered a deal to help another case and to save his own ass. No proof that he didn't, no proof that he did.

Saddam MAY have had something to do with 9/11. No proof that he did, but no proof that he didn't. (Bad guys in the rolodex does not suffice.)

Either both are okay, or neither are. I'm okay either way, but what with people on this blog telling me that the second is in fact a fair statement, then I guess they think that the first must be as well. Cool!

Bemused: "Our army is sm... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Bemused: "Our army is small because we don't need military protection"

Uh, you don't need protection because WE protect you...or try to. But lately you folks have INVITED the world's terrorists to set up shop in Canada, and are now SHOCKED, SHOCKED to find out they want to kill you too!!! It's harder to protect ya'll when you're TRYING to kill yourselves!!

and then this from you: "surely the way to most effectively combat terrorism is with coordinated information sharing amongst free nations "
So, uh, just what to ya DO with all that "coordinated information" when ya get it? Well, sooner or later ya gotta go drop a 500 pound bomb (or TWO) on some moron's head!! And it takes a military to do that. The world would NOT be a better place without the U.S. military...it would be a VERY nasty place, controlled by VERY nasty people! Like Zark.

Amused and jp4, how can we ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf:

Amused and jp4, how can we miss you if you won't leave? You were wrong. Any way you slice it. No amount of spin will make you right. You cannot fix stupid. Liberalism is a persistant vegitative state. You and Mak41 prove that point every time you post here.

Bemused, and this is releva... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Bemused, and this is relevant because.... ?

Whether or not Saddam had anything to do with 911 (he did not), you'll join me in congratulaing the USA for sticking up for the fundamental rights of man, yes? Or do you instead wax nostalgic for the good old days of Your Man Saddam, that nice fella responsible for 2,000,000 dead.

Bemused may be a jerk, or h... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Bemused may be a jerk, or he may be a nice guy. No proof that he isn't, no proof that he is.

See how easy it is to play that game?

You lefties just KNOW that Rove did something wrong because you want to believe it.

Bemused,And you ma... (Below threshold)
millco88:

Bemused,

And you may or may not be a serial killer. There's no proof that you are and no proof that you aren't. But I'm sure a grand jury will get around to indicting you any day now, right?? Is that the kind of logic you're using now??

Come on, stop insulting our intelligence. You're just being a disingenuous prick for what reason I have no idea. If you think so little of the people with whom you "discuss" issues, what does that say about you??

McCain: Sigh... yes, becaus... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

McCain: Sigh... yes, because I think the invasion of Iraq has gone poorly, due to incompetence/willful ignorance within the administration, I therefore miss Saddam and secretly want to have his babies. Smarter wingnut please.

Hey Justrand: you aren't protecting us. We need to take responsibility for our own airports and borders, since we haven't done a great job with that. Our government is addressing that. But if you'd like to continue to pee in our beds for us, that would be great. Do you own shares of RubberSheets Inc.?

And BTW, you are incredibly disingenuous when you quote me as saying "surely the way to most effectively combat terrorism is with coordinated information sharing amongst free nations and preventative domestic security measures," while leaving out the part that followed the comma: "in conjunction with precision air strikes and incursions when the situation requires it". Why did you leave that part out? To make me look like a Kucinich? You think all liberals are weak, because you refuse to believe that not all liberals fit your preconceived notions thereof, and this clouds your thinking. It's sad.

Big Mo, I am in fact a jerk, so I deny your analogy. ;)

Zelsdorf, I've been reading this blog for a week and a half, and you have never contributed anything worth reading to the discourse. And you sure sound like you could use some anger management. I care about you, dude--take care of yourself.

Bemused:"We won the ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Bemused:
"We won the only war we fought against you, Les. ;)

And as far as me having to thank a GI, I'm not British, or French; I'm Canadian."

I know. That's why you should thank a G.I.
Because we do a lot to protect you. And it's not always pretty. It's sometimes a dirty job but someone's gotta do it because nobody else in the world is stepping up to do it.

Oh, right, like that one ti... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

Oh, right, like that one time when you kept the North Vietnamese out of Winnipeg, or when you repelled Saddam's invasion of Halifax? What are you talking about, Les?

Look, I have only Canadians to thank for Canada's independence. And a few reluctant Brits.

OMG!Leopold just a... (Below threshold)
Steve:

OMG!

Leopold just announced Rove has been placed on Double Secret Probation...

Bemused's moral-relativist ... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Bemused's moral-relativist position may be represented as:

A = B = C


It amuses me to see that liberals are unable to make a moral distinction between democratically elected people like George Bush and misunderstood action heroes like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.

are we allowed to comment o... (Below threshold)
sean nyc/aa:

are we allowed to comment on this investigation yet?

I sure hope the administration will start to.

Personally, I think he flipped, but we'll have to wait and see.

What are you talking about,... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

What are you talking about, McCain? Who is arguing for moral relativism? If I was a relativist, do you think I would care about prisoners in Guantanamo? Someone who takes a principled stand against Bush is not by default a fan of Saddam. I'm beginning to think that conservatives don't even know what moral relativism is. Just because I think it appropriate to criticize the US, does not mean I am cheering for the bad guys. I just want the good guys to do better.

Again: smarter wingnut. Please.

"Oh, right, like that one t... (Below threshold)

"Oh, right, like that one time when you kept the North Vietnamese out of Winnipeg, or when you repelled Saddam's invasion of Halifax?"

...or the 40 years or so that we kept the Soviets on the other side of the North Pole for you. The cooperation committee that plans responses to that sort of thing is still in force, by the way. You know, in case someone else (like China) decides that a handful of Canadian soldiers isn't enough of a deterrent to keep them off of your oil fields or your other mineral deposits.


Sean - why would he flip? T... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Sean - why would he flip? To what end? To roll on Darth Cheney?

No theory you lefties put fourth makes any sense.

You just want him to be guilty of something. You just KNOW IT and FEEL IT in your bones!!

But defense spokesman Mark Corallo told NRO's Byron York this morning that "There are no conditions to this action by the special prosecutor. There has never been any talk of conditions, of cooperation, of anything that could even be construed as conditions. This just simply reflects the fact that the special prosecutor found Mr. Rove to be a truthful and credible witness from the beginning."

In other words, no "deal," no "there" there.

cirby, China won't invade t... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

cirby, China won't invade to take our oil. We'll sell it to them for more than what we charge the U.S., and they'll happily pay it. After all, they have all that American money to spend.

Global instability doesn't help them any more than it helps us. So I think you're jumping at shadows.

Yes Bemused, if you are a d... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Yes Bemused, if you are a disciplined moral relativist, you would care just as much about Guantanamo as you do about the 2,000,000 dead for which Saddam Hussein is responsible. On the other hand, if you are an American-hating moral relativist propagandist, you would wring your hands more about Guantanamo than you do about those 2,000,000 dead.

So tell me your moral basis for caring so much, relatively, about a few people in Guantanamo Bay.

Show us where exactly you have written about Saddam Hussein's injustice to fellow man.

I don't have a blog, McCain... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

I don't have a blog, McCain. I cared about 2,000,000 dead Iraqis when sanctions were impeding their doctors' efforts to care for sick and malnourished children. I still care about the Iraqis dying in the insurgency. I care about them so much, in fact, that I wish the invasion and occupation had been drawn up by adults and not the PNAC, so that there wouldn't be thousands more dead Iraqis.

I also cared about the tortured Uzbekis, but since their dictator was part of the Coalition of the Willing, I bet you didn't make a peep. And how long until you join the army to help out with the invasion of China? How many dead Chinese under Maoist rule? How many wingnut bloggers are crying for something to be done about the human rights abuses in China? Don't talk to me about moral equivalence, you intellectual non-weight.

Bemused: "cirby, China won'... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Bemused: "cirby, China won't invade to take our oil. We'll sell it to them for more than what we charge the U.S., and they'll happily pay it. After all, they have all that American money to spend."

Yes, the Chinese have ALL THAT AMERICAN MONEY....and yet we seem to able to generate so much more, everyday, year in, year out.....I wonder why that is so?

And by the way Bemused, in both World Wars, your fabulous Canadian troops (and I happen to agree that they were), would have been on the losing side if not for the US.

Of course, since you have to dredge up 60 year old memories of Canadian military prowess, that should tell you something about the current state of Canadian "preparedness"......

Bemused: "I cared about 2,0... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Bemused: "I cared about 2,000,000 dead Iraqis when sanctions were impeding their doctors' efforts to care for sick and malnourished children."

Yes, darn those sanctions which kept that Humanitarian Saddam from providing all that aid to his own people!!

BTW moron, the UN-approved sanctions (!!) did NOT apply to medicine and necessary food stuffs.

What an idiot. Do you know ANYTHING AT ALL about what you post? It appears not.

Bemused: "I also cared about the tortured Uzbekis"....yeah, but not enough to, like, DO anything about it.

Don't worry Bemused, just sit back, sip your espresso, and make faces at those horrible Americans to your South.

Isn't it amazing that Canadians like Bemused spend so much time worrying about what the US is doing, and Americans think....well, we don't waste alot of time thinking about what the Canadians think.

However, I am willing to reconsider that stance since Harper was elected.

Bemused, the 2,000,000 dead... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Bemused, the 2,000,000 dead Iraqis, Iranians, and Kuwaitis occurred almost entirely before sanctions. So try your liberal logic again.

Why do you care equally about Guantanamo as you do about 2,000,000 people dead?

By saying equally, I am stretching considerably to give you the benefit of the doubt. As an American-hating moral relativist, you haven't actually earned that benefit, but let's pretend it in order to hear your moral answer.

Anyone here from Mak44 toda... (Below threshold)
virgo123:

Anyone here from Mak44 today? or has He suddenly fallen ill?

Several million dollars of ... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Several million dollars of our tax money was wasted to prove: Plame was not an undercover agent and no crime was comitted by anyone. And they worry about a contractor ripping off a few thousand when he actually does part of what he was paid to do. Works for me.
Last week we had the moonbat leader in the Senate make a direct statement that their violation of the Constitution was a small technical problem and they could take care (bypass the constitution) of it. Ref: Senate cannot initiate spending bills. Senate should censor this idiot.

Now we have Chuckie Schumer screaming that Fitzgearld should be required to release Grand Jury testimony. No indictment, no information. Time for a senate investigation of this idiot.

Maybe Charles Ray Schumer (... (Below threshold)
virgo1:

Maybe Charles Ray Schumer (is) the one whos been leaking to the times among other rags?

Don't lecture me about l... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Don't lecture me about logic, millco88.

Rove MAY have committed a crime and brokered a deal to help another case and to save his own ass. No proof that he didn't, no proof that he did.

You might need lectures on logic, considering the absence of logic in this post.

You're claiming he did something wrong. You just can't name what, when, or where.

Saddam MAY have had something to do with 9/11. No proof that he did, but no proof that he didn't. (Bad guys in the rolodex does not suffice.)

Nobody is saying Saddam was responsible for 9/11. Attack an argument somebody actually made and not that you wish they made.

are we allowed to comment on this investigation yet?

I sure hope the administration will start to.

Personally, I think he flipped, but we'll have to wait and see.

Yeah, I can see that.

Man, you won't give it up.

I cared about 2,000,000 dead Iraqis when sanctions were impeding their doctors' efforts to care for sick and malnourished children.

Hmm, SOMEHOW, Saddam had money to build palaces during that timeframe.

But there was no money for food or medicine.

And this is the West's fault?
-=Mike

So Bemused is Canadian...we... (Below threshold)
Michael:

So Bemused is Canadian...well that explains a lot.

"China won't invade to take... (Below threshold)

"China won't invade to take our oil. We'll sell it to them for more than what we charge the U.S.,"

Actually, you won't.

They don't have the cash, and they don't have enough other resources to pay for it.

They do, however, have enough cash and resources to pay for a large military. Which is currently building up its forces.

...and, of course, the USSR had a pretty damned big military until we bankrupted them. You know, back in the days when Canada was relying on the US to keep the Russians from invading.

Sean - why would he flip... (Below threshold)
sean nyc/aa:

Sean - why would he flip? To what end? To roll on Darth Cheney? big mo

maybe that, maybe to solidify his case against libby.

Hello wingnuts, there still is a trial that is going to be exposing a lot of this to the public. the administration is far in the clear.

Yeah, I can see that.
Man, you won't give it up.
mikesc

Good, I'm glad you agree that it is very possible Rove will be testifying in the Libby trial. and why should we give it up? clearly the administration was deeply involved in this in some way and have yet to answer for it. the "we will not comment on an ongoing investigation" was a nice soundbyte for a few weeks, but now that you all are certain it's over this can all be resolved.

Good, I'm glad you agree... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Good, I'm glad you agree that it is very possible Rove will be testifying in the Libby trial. and why should we give it up? clearly the administration was deeply involved in this in some way and have yet to answer for it.

The dearth of indictments proves otherwise.

the "we will not comment on an ongoing investigation" was a nice soundbyte for a few weeks, but now that you all are certain it's over this can all be resolved.

Apparently, being a leftie means never having to say you're wrong.

Isn't the left the same group that whined that Bush won't admit mistakes?
-=Mike

Isn't the left the same ... (Below threshold)
sean nyc/aa:

Isn't the left the same group that whined that Bush won't admit mistakes? mikesc

what can we admit? we don't yet know all of what happened. true there are not a dearth of indictments, but the administration has still not told us the story. We know Karl Rove was a source to Matt Cooper. We still don't know who Novak's source. We still don't know how Woodward supposedly heard about Plame. We don't know if Cheney or Bush declassified the info, possibly outside of normal operating procedures, before her name was leaked. We don't know if this was a concerted effort within the whitehouse to discredit Joe Wilson. We don't know who sent Wilson to Niger. Was there nepotism as some on the right claim?

In all seriousness, what are we supposed to admit?

MikeSC--Bush DOES admit mis... (Below threshold)
Bemused:

MikeSC--Bush DOES admit mistakes? That's awesome! I'm glad he is as intellectually honest as you imply he is. I can't wait for two more years of transparent government.

Did Ahmed Chalabi tell you that the Russians were going to invade Canada, cirby? 'Cause that guy's a liar.

And who do you think is on the fat end of your trade deficit? It ain't Greenland. You think that your current trade relationship with China is actually symbiotic? I think you need to pay less attention to Larry Kudlow.

What does me being Canadian explain to you, Michael? Is it the fact that some want-wit keeps referring to me as a moral relativist, because I agree with a majority of Americans that the invasion of Iraq, as executed, went poorly? I support the coalition's efforts in Afghanistan. I am happy that Saddam is no longer in power, and think that things there will improve gradually. You don't think it prudent, though, to examine how things went down, to ask questions, to praise success, and to criticize failure? Am I a moral relativist when I say that Donald Rumsfeld should be fired? No--I'm a Wilsonian liberal who takes great pride in holding myself and my society to a much higher moral standard than my enemies hold themselves to. I can cheer for the good guys, while criticizing them. Okay? Good.

If I understand how you are using the term "moral relativism", McCain, then you need to find someone else to apply it to. The term is defined by the online Philosophical Dictionary as the belief system that "there are no universal standards of moral value, but only the cultural norms of particular societies." If I believed that, why would I be arguing with Americans? I would think that you were right, because YOU think that you are right. I would be an apologist for female genital mutilation, amongst other things. I'm not. Okay? Good.

"Did Ahmed Chalabi tell you... (Below threshold)

"Did Ahmed Chalabi tell you that the Russians were going to invade Canada, cirby? 'Cause that guy's a liar."

Actually, the Soviet plan for that was pretty open during most of the last half of the 20th century, and once the Iron Curtain fell, the records were out there for all to see.

It just shows how little you seem to know about how things actually happened during most of the last 100 years. More of that "wish for it and maybe the wolf will go away" foreign policy you guys seem to like. Works about as well as the "terrorists will never come here" policy you tried or the last few years.


This is actually a victory ... (Below threshold)
CaptiansCheetos:

This is actually a victory for the Right.

What the ruling says is carte blanche is granted to one of the chief architects (if not the mastermind) to slander and intimidate any reputable critic of (false) WMD or "Imminent Threat" claims so that a path can be cleared for the deaths of 2400+ Americans and 30,000+ Iraqis in the most barbarous manner.

Anyone who is naive enough to still believe that "regime change" and "democracy" for Iraqis were the initial motives behind the Iraq war ought to have the shit they have for brains flushed out- because it's clogging their ears. Just once, prove that if the "Imminent Threat" claim were taken off the table, as it should have, even by the CIA's own assessments- that the invasion was justifiable.

All For Nothing, get it?
Zero. Zip. Nada.

Congratulations.

WMD and your mythical "Immi... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

WMD and your mythical "Imminent threat" were strictly PR justifications for the war. Fact of the matter is, the invasion of Iraq was always seen as a strategic necessity in the WOT, since that particular plot of territory controlled by a murdering bastard gave us access and the ability to deal military with the two most serious state sponsors of terrorism, Iran and Syria.

I see that "bemused" is nor... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

I see that "bemused" is north of the border. My guess is that he gets to be the "mommy" one day and the "daddy" the next.

Cheetoh, you are engaging i... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Cheetoh, you are engaging in the curious cultural phenomenon known as Liberal Logic. Let's amuse you by pretending that all you say is true. That still doesn't explain why you would be against our noble effort on behalf of mankind in Iraq.

Freeing Iraqi people from a despot who killed 2,000,000 people is probably a good thing. That is true whether or not some facts were wrong, whether or not you were lied to, whether people get killed with guns or WMDs, or if the job is more difficult to achieve than expected.

In other words, you are begging the question. So take another shot at explaining, morally, why leaving tyranny alone is good for mankind.

McCain,Those sorts... (Below threshold)
Son Of The Godfather:

McCain,

Those sorts of things do not matter to these folks.
Ridding the world of a despicable regime means, to them:
Zero. Zip. Nada.

Give the moonbats some room today... they've had a LOT of bad news. :)

it's not that those things ... (Below threshold)
sean nyc/aa:

it's not that those things don't matter, but if the US has to go into every place where there is genocide or a despotic regime and spread democracy, we've got a lot more countries to invade. Sudan, Congo, and several other countries in Africa, Saudi Arabia (really the entire Arabian peninsula), Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Egypt, Libya, Cuba, China, some of the old Soviet states, and probably a few more.

No, we chose Iraq, which I guess had to be the first choice considering Reagan gave him weapons to kill Iranians with, but also happened to kill some of his own people. But it was ok then cause Reagan was President.

Talk about moral relativism.

BemusedWhat doe... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Bemused

What does me being Canadian explain to you, Michael? Is it the fact that some want-wit keeps referring to me as a moral relativist, because I agree with a majority of Americans that the invasion of Iraq, as executed, went poorly?

A majority of Americans believing that the invasion of Iraq went poorly is conjecture. It's hard to tell where majorities stand as usually the minority is the most vocal; they carry bigger signs and plan more rallies. It seems that polls are not stratified enough to give a larger, clearer picture of attitudes, so I tend to ignore them.

As far as you being Canadian, I don't have to tell you that you should be proud of that. Canada has done alot more than it's given credit for, and that's coming from an American.

what can we admit? we do... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

what can we admit? we don't yet know all of what happened. true there are not a dearth of indictments, but the administration has still not told us the story. We know Karl Rove was a source to Matt Cooper. We still don't know who Novak's source. We still don't know how Woodward supposedly heard about Plame.

You keep peddling these inane conspiracy theories. Rather that just admit that Rove did nothing illegal, you still wish to believe he ACTUALLY did so.

As for who Woodward spoke to, he's already said it was Armitage.

We don't know if Cheney or Bush declassified the info, possibly outside of normal operating procedures, before her name was leaked.

There is no "normal operating procedure" for declassifying info. The procedure is the executive branch says it's not classified anymore.

We don't know if this was a concerted effort within the whitehouse to discredit Joe Wilson. We don't know who sent Wilson to Niger. Was there nepotism as some on the right claim?

We know who sent Wilson to Niger. The CIA at the bequest of his wife (and saying that, mind you, is what led to all of this). The WH didn't need to discredit Wilson as the guy discredits himself quite efficiently.

And who do you think is on the fat end of your trade deficit? It ain't Greenland. You think that your current trade relationship with China is actually symbiotic? I think you need to pay less attention to Larry Kudlow.

Well, I can mention who ALSO championed open trade with China.

He wasn't a Republican, mind you.

He also took money from them and sold them military technology against the wishes of the Pentagon.

No--I'm a Wilsonian liberal who takes great pride in holding myself and my society to a much higher moral standard than my enemies hold themselves to.

You're aware that Wilson was also an unrepentant bigot, aren't you?

Anyone who is naive enough to still believe that "regime change" and "democracy" for Iraqis were the initial motives behind the Iraq war ought to have the shit they have for brains flushed out- because it's clogging their ears. Just once, prove that if the "Imminent Threat" claim were taken off the table, as it should have, even by the CIA's own assessments- that the invasion was justifiable.

Bush specifically saying we can't allow them to become imminent threats should tell you something.

it's not that those things don't matter, but if the US has to go into every place where there is genocide or a despotic regime and spread democracy, we've got a lot more countries to invade. Sudan, Congo, and several other countries in Africa, Saudi Arabia (really the entire Arabian peninsula), Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Egypt, Libya, Cuba, China, some of the old Soviet states, and probably a few more.

So, you support war without end, eh? Got it.

Can we also toss in Cuba and Venezuela?

No, we chose Iraq, which I guess had to be the first choice considering Reagan gave him weapons to kill Iranians with, but also happened to kill some of his own people. But it was ok then cause Reagan was President.

Using this logic, FDR was liable fo the deaths of Russians under Stalin.
-=Mike

it's not that those thin... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

it's not that those things don't matter, but if the US has to go into every place where there is genocide or a despotic regime and spread democracy, we've got a lot more countries to invade. Sudan, Congo, and several other countries in Africa, Saudi Arabia (really the entire Arabian peninsula), Iran, Syria, Pakistan, Egypt, Libya, Cuba, China, some of the old Soviet states, and probably a few more.

I think when Iraq is finally stable again and becomes a free, prosperous and democratic state (pardon my optimism), the citizens of other states will take notice. While some complain that violence begets violence can the same be said with freedom begetting freedom?

We don't have to invade every country to to help people, when they see postive resluts right next door they may well want it for themselves.

Sean,I forgot part... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Sean,

I forgot part of your post:

No, we chose Iraq, which I guess had to be the first choice considering Reagan gave him weapons to kill Iranians with,

Iraq was chosen for many reasons. One, Saddam made a fool of the international community for a little over a decade by making deals at the UN so he could funnel all his money into self-glorification and weaponry while letting his people live and die in abject poverty...which is convenient, because he could them blame their predicament on the US and UK.
And of course there was the compromised MWD information and the ties to terrorism, Al-Queda more specifically.

"Reagan gave him weapons to... (Below threshold)

"Reagan gave him weapons to kill Iranians with,"

Not so much.

The total "military" equipment that Iraq got from the US in the 1980s was a handful of noncombat helicopters (which they actually bought, instead of being "given"). The most they could have used them for was observation (they didn't - they mostly ended up as airborne limos for Iraqi generals). No guns, no tanks, no missiles. Iraq also got some insecticide (which was unsuitable for chemical warfare applications, before you try that argument) and some military advice.

The other 99% of military "aid" Iraq got in the 1980s was from peaceful places like France, Germany, and the USSR. Lots of Soviet planes and tanks and copters and rifles, some French planes, et cetera...

There is no "normal oper... (Below threshold)
sean nyc/aa:

There is no "normal operating procedure" for declassifying info. The procedure is the executive branch says it's not classified anymore. mike sc

Really? So the DCI knew the info had been declassified, yet an investigation was still called for. That seems pretty strange.

As for who Woodward spoke to, he's already said it was Armitage.

The CIA at the bequest of his wife (and saying that, mind you, is what led to all of this). mike

Is there confirmation of these? I haven't heard any.

Using this logic, FDR was liable fo the deaths of Russians under Stalin. mike

did the fdr prop up stalin to help fight the nazis? the us had little choice to side with the soviets in WWII and did not have strong relations with them before or after the war. and if you're comparing WWII to the iran-iraq war, wow that's desperate. moral relaitivism indeed.

Yeah WWII was way worse..th... (Below threshold)
virgo1:

Yeah WWII was way worse..thats like comparing Iraq to the Viet Nam war, Nam was 30 times as costly in human lives..




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