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"If you wrong us, shall we not revenge?"

It should come as no surprise to anyone who knows the slightest about Jews, but now we know what it takes to provoke a hard military response: the chance (admittedly very, very slim) of saving a single Israeli soldier's life.

I've been expecting this for some time. Indeed, I've been calling for it. For far too long, they've been the target of relentless attacks of various forms, despite repeated "cease-fires" (which don't seem to mean the same thing in Israel as they do in the rest of the world -- there is no actual ceasing of firing going on from the Palestinian side.)

Many, including Secretary of State Rice, are calling on Israel to "use diplomacy" to settle the crisis. As much as I respect Dr. Rice, I have to disagree -- diplomacy is useless here. Indeed, it can be argued that "diplomacy" that led to this.

  • For years, Palestinians have committed acts of war against Israel on practically a daily basis.
  • Hamas has been behind a great deal of these attacks.
  • Hamas is currently the legally-elected government of the Palestinian Authority.
  • Elements of Hamas carried out the recent attack and kidnaping.
  • The Hamas government, while not admitting they possessed the kidnaped soldier, wanted to open negotiations with Israel not over his return, but merely "information" regarding his status.
  • The Palestinian version of "diplomacy," as confirmed in numerous negotiations, consists of "let's formalize what we already have, and then negotiate what else we will get."
  • The Palestinians have yet to keep a single element of any of the agreements they have reached with Israel -- yet Israel is to be bound to honor every single element of every single agreement.
  • Hamas has steadfastly refused to acknowledge Israel's mere existence, and (despite claims to the contrary) has maintained that position to this very day. The matter is not even open for discussion.

So, now, the Palestinians are being reminded of some facts in the only language they have ever understood: that while it's easy to kill civilians, and even occasionally individual soldiers, there is very little a guerrilla force can do to stop (or even slow down much) a determined modern military force. It's similar to what we are experiencing in Iraq; the terrorists can't stop the US from doing whatever we please, but only find success when they target civilians or small groups of soldiers.

I fear it is too late for that 19-year-old young man. To be candid, I considered him as good as dead the instant his disappearance was announced, as I am sure so did the Israeli government. But while there is the slightest chance of rescuing him, it must be done.

And if they fail, then perhaps the Palestinians (and the rest of the world) need a reminder that the Jews are followers of the Old Testament, and not the New. "Turn the other cheek" is not part of their theology -- but "an eye for an eye" certainly is.


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Comments (55)

Hmmmm.I think Isra... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

I think Israel has to realise that they're never going to be treated well by the international community. Frankly what I'd do if in charge is surround Gaza, eliminate all sources of power, water and food. And then put a complete embargo on Gaza and not allow anything, or anyone, in or out until that soldier is returned alive and unharmed.

And if that soldier is dead?

Then that embargo isn't lifted until every last individual in Gaza is dead of starvation.

Hamas and the Palestinians want brutality? I'd show them brutality in spades. More than enough for their fill.

While Ed's suggestion might... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

While Ed's suggestion might seem a bit extreme, it would certainly insure that there would be no more kidnapped soldiers in the future.

I think it was a deliberate... (Below threshold)

I think it was a deliberate provocation, designed to draw in the Israelis, to try to strengthen their hold on the "country."

I can't condemn Dr. Rice fo... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

I can't condemn Dr. Rice for her remarks because it is her job to say those kinds of things. As Secretary of State, she is supposed to be the voice of reason and diplomacy.

With that said, Israel needs to reduce Gaza and the West Bank to little pieces of rubble.

I agree with Steve it is Ri... (Below threshold)
just me:

I agree with Steve it is Rice's job to say those things and work the "talk" end.

But Israel has a valid reason for doing what they are doing, and frankly Israel has shown far more patience than I think anyone should ever be expected to have.

Now that Hamas is in charge, let the Palestinians reap what they sowed, when they elected a group of terrorists to lead them.

Sadly, I agree that things probably aren't going to be good for the kidnapped soldier, but I will hold onto hope until we know for sure.

Blow 'em to hell.... (Below threshold)
Candy:

Blow 'em to hell.

I completely agree, Jay, bu... (Below threshold)
bungaloebill:

I completely agree, Jay, but I wish you'd say "Israelis" not "Jews." Yes, the nation of Israel is predominately Jewish, but the U.S. is predominately Christian and you don't (or shouldn't) say "the Christians" when describing U.S. actions, right? Such rhetoric gives ammunition to those who would invoke anti-semitism regarding the absolutely justified right of the sovereign nation of Israel to defend itself from terrorists.

Excelent post Jay. I have n... (Below threshold)

Excelent post Jay. I have nothing to add except my complete agreement.

bungaloebill,I thi... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

bungaloebill,

I think Jay's use of "Jews" vs "Israelis" might be apropos here. It is because they are Jewish that the anti-Semitic Arabs wish to destroy them. It's never really been about land since the Pals don't seem too upset with their Arab neighbors for seizing nearly 80% of what of they consider their land....they obsess over the 20% that is Israel. Why? Because Israel's population is predominantly Jewish.

When the Pals and Hamas and the other anti-Semitic haters rail at Israel they don't use the country name. It is always the "Zionist" and evil "Jews".

In short, Israel has to defend itself not because it is Israel...but because they are Jewish. If Israel didn't exist as a country then the individual Jews would be persecuted. Pretending otherwise simply gives the anti-Semitic bigots a pretense to hide their prejudice behind.

Faith+1:All excell... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

Faith+1:

All excellent points but, I have to come down on bungaloebill's side on this one. It is not the Jews in Israel that are making the decissions, but the ellected leaders of a soveriegn nation. "Israel" would seem to be more appropriate.

Jay, good post and good tit... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Jay, good post and good title: Shylock's words from the The Merchant of Venice where he intends to sink to their level and get even:

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
Jay's shorthand descriptio... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Jay's shorthand description of Jewish theology that Jews are followers of the Old Testament, and not the New. "Turn the other cheek" is not part of their theology -- is slighty misleading and one-sided. Judaism is hardly a monolithic religious tradition. For every passage of Isaiah 2:4, "beat their swords into plowshares, their spears into pruning hooks," there is a Joel 4:9, "beat your plowshares into swords, your pruning hooks into spears." Judging by the comments on this site, 'smote them' would be the favored response..

18-year-old Eliyahu Asheri ... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

18-year-old Eliyahu Asheri has also been kidnapped by Islamic murderers. The IDF is trying to determine whether a body they found is the young man's. Read it on Power Line.

The "Palestinians" have always been the useful patsies of the surrounding Arab Muslim states. Unable to conquer Israel with military might (Israel has kicked their asses in 1948, 1967 and 1973) they've resorted to using these so-called "refugees," who the Arab Muslim nations absolutely refuse to accept into their own borders, as blunt instruments to wage a low-level war against Israel for the last 20 years.

Frankly, the "Palestinians" deserve everything that Israel would give them, should Israel let hell lose on them. It is only Israel's remarkable restraint that has saved their sorry asses. Until they throw off their terror masters and kiss Islamofascism goodbye, this situation will never be resolved.

As a Christian, I think bot... (Below threshold)
Candy:

As a Christian, I think both the word "Christian" and the word "Jew" have become dirty words to the Politically Correct. I'm starting to feel that the word "Heterosexual" is also a dirty word, but that's another discussion.

I highly doubt that the Israelis would take offense to being called Jewish. They are what they are - and they are being attacked because they are Jews, and God's Chosen.

Steve Crickmore - a better ... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Steve Crickmore - a better passage would be from Ecclesiastes 3:

1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,

3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,

4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,

5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,

6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,

7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,

8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

(I'll forgive anyone who's hearing that certain "Turn, Turn, Turn" song in their head right now.)

I'll just repeat what I wro... (Below threshold)
chsw:

I'll just repeat what I wrote yesterday.

Israel should announce that it will fight wars in Gaza as another Middle Eastern country, and not in the manner of a Western country. Israel should then point out what Syria did to domestic political opposition at Hama and what Jordan did to the Palestinians during September 1970, as well as what the PLO did to other Palestinians during riots after the PLO returned from Tunis to the West Bank. Then Israel should follow up with similar action.

And let the UN be damned.

chsw

I think the Palestinians ha... (Below threshold)

I think the Palestinians have gone just a little too far this time. I think the Israelis should obliterate them once and for all and get rid of the sorry lot. They've caused nothing but trouble and are driven by only jealousy and envy. The Palestinians lived in that area for thousands of years (as did many Jews, by the way) and they did absolutely nothing with it. The Jews came in and irrigated the desert and built great cities. It is a constant reminder to the Palestinians of just how worthless and useless they are. And their solution is to tear it all down rather than try to participate in the growth. Just look at what they do with the Israeli settlements that have been turned over to them.

The post was great until th... (Below threshold)
MtgyAU:

The post was great until the OT/NT comparison. "Turn the other cheek" is simply a recognition that punishment is up to God and those He has put in power, i.e. the government, just as "an eye for an eye..." is a command to judges, not individuals. The NT "version" is not a call to pacifism.

MtgyAU - you are correct. <... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

MtgyAU - you are correct.

I figured this would happen... (Below threshold)
Bugz:

I figured this would happen once Hamas took over the government, and Isreal pulled out of the the settlements. Once a sufficient provocation was committed, it would no longer be a retaliation for an isolated terrorist incident, but a justified full scale military assault against a hostile belligerant government.

The Palistinians asked for it. Now they've got it. I doubt they will have the stomach for it for very long, but that's too damn bad. We are going to see a good old fashioned ass kicking, and it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of assholes.

Hmmm.How long has ... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmm.

How long has this crazy nonsense been going on? 50+ years? 60+ years? 100+ years?

Enough is enough. I don't care that this involves the Palestinians. What I care about is that they aren't learning the lesson they need to learn. Namely that attacking is going to result in death, and not in Israel.

What else is Israel to do? The "international community" refuses to punish the Palestinians. Even now "humanitarian" aid is flowing into the Palestinian areas. Where's the international humanitarian aid for Israelis shot, stabbed, blownup or generically murdered?

We wouldn't coddle cannibals who acted in this manner. Why does anyone coddle Palestinians who do?

Frankly the lack of, at minimum, a proportionate response leads muslim extremists all over the world to believe that there are no limits to what they can do because they won't suffer the consequences.

Frankly I think the proper way to deal with Islamic extremism is to treat these murderers as extensions of their clans and tribes. Since they prefer to live that way, then they need to be treated that way. If any member of a tribe is involved in terrorism, then slaughter that entire tribe.

You'll see tribal elders clamping down *hard* on terrorism in their youth right frigging quick.

...

Some people see parallels between the Roman Empire and America. Personally I think the Roman Empire, in similar circumstances, would have dealt with Islamic extremism on a very permanent basis a long time ago.

It's just startling to read... (Below threshold)
mak44:

It's just startling to read all the posts here, generally advocating the destruction of Palestinians.

This group has completely failed to examine any of the Israeli actions or policies implemented since the '67 war and which, time after time, are fundamental violations of Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions.

The current collective punishment of the Gaza inhabitants through the destruction of the power plant, among other things, in Gaza is but the most recent example.

The building of the wall, effectively annexing significant areas of the West Bank, is another.

The demolition of Palestinian homes is a repeated and long term violation of Article 49.

Israel has effectively shattered the continuity of the territories w/ the development of settlements in the West Bank and the establishment of a myriad of checkpoints, often separating the Palestinians from their farms & their livlihood. West Bank natives constantly endure all sorts of obstacles & extended delays restricting their free movment within their territories.

Many of the posters here think that these Israeli "abuses" of the Palestinians are justified because of the acts of terrorism against the Israelis and many of you have suggested that the Palestinians should just be eliminated.

Were you to do a little exploration, beyond your knee-jerk reaction to some Palestinian act of terrorism, you might discover that Israel's hands are not exactly clean and that this intractable problem is far from one-sided.

The whole thrust of this original thread & the string of outrageous comments simply reflects the fact that none of you truly understand that about which you are ranting.

mak44 doesn't seem to conce... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

mak44 doesn't seem to concerned about the Palestian terrorists blowing up Israeli women and children. He seems to look the other way in his entire post seeking to blame the Isrealis only. These women and children do not evoke the slightest symathy from mak44.

mak44,You are defi... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

mak44,

You are definitely right in saying that neither side's hands are clean in this. The Geneva Convention means little, however, if only one side is supposed to be bound by it.

I'm also a little unsettled by the "kill them all" attitude. I agree with many posters on their assessment of the situation, but not in the proposed genocide answer.

I believe the only way to solve this ongoing problem is for the West to get involved actively and, if necessary, force a solution. Get the Palestinians to agree on a state, outline it, create it, and wall it off from Israel.

That's because all those Pa... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

That's because all those Palestinians from Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria are fighting for the rights of the 5% of Palestinians who have anything resembling a claim on land inside Israel proper. Mak honors these freedom fighters for being just that!

Now, if the Israelis ever w... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

Now, if the Israelis ever were to be persuaded to relocate, I would hope that before they left, they demolished every building and piece of infrastructure put in since 1947...and restored all land developed since then back to its original natural state.

Then let the Palestinians have it.

The terrorism would still c... (Below threshold)
914:

The terrorism would still continue as the Arab community at large wants the destruction of Isreal as a state. You could get the Palestinians to agree on a state and that state would be all of Isreal. No, appeasement does not work against this kind of mindset. Only the use of force is understandable to Hamas and the rest of terrorists around the world. Kill or be killed.

LoveAmerica Immigrant </... (Below threshold)
mak44:

LoveAmerica Immigrant

You didn't bother to read my post & consider its content. I never suggested a lack of concern for innocent Israeli civilians as victims of Palestinian acts. I simply called attention to the fact, that with a little more perspective & knowlege of Israeli actions, you might consider that this is more than a one-sided example of blind terrorist activity.

What you want to do is simply define Palestinian resistance as pure "terrorism" and simply refuse to consider what underlies Palestinian acts of desperation.

Had you been forcibly evicted from your historical farmlands by illegitimate settling, restricted in your free movement in your own homeland, endured illegitimate acts of collective punishment for decades, you might be motivated to acts of desperation that someone else would label "terrorist."

As I mentioned in another t... (Below threshold)

As I mentioned in another thread, this current series of "provocations" by Gaza Palestinians is a carefully orchestrated series of events designed to lead to this invasion, perhaps masterminded by an exiled leader. They expect some kind of response from either the surrounding Arab countries, or an AQ-type attack that will be justified by the Israeli "invasion."

At least that's my guess. The recent threats about bio-agents is worrisome, but whether that is just a feint or real threat will likely be obvious in the next 7-10 days.

If this is AQ inspired, I'd be wary of follow up attacks on the West in the near future as well, again "justified" by the Israeli invasion and whatever Western support they receive.

Apologists such as mak44 are witlessly acting as proxy agents for these dangerous people and their ideas.

Would mak44 also condone the slaughter of white settlers[invaders] by natives in America or Africa? It sounds like it.

Can't believe you guys ques... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Can't believe you guys question Mak 43 2/3 on his posts. Don't you realize he is a know it all nerd. What he says is gospel with no room to move.He takes the time to reserch ( 2 1/2 seconds) each thing that he posts. How could he be wrong? It does not make any differance what the thread is about you must realize that Mak 43 2/3 is the authority on anything that is brought up. My suggestion is to not respond to his posts (rants) as you are wasting your time. This way maybe he will go away amd hopefully go talk to the Kos Kiddies.

jhow66Try a... (Below threshold)
mak44:

jhow66

Try a quick scan of: Israeli violations of human rights & international humanitarian law in the Occupied Territories

from which I quote: "the Israeli Occupation is not simply a reaction to terrorism or a means of self-defense, but is an expression of a pro-active policy of de facto annexation that began immediately after the 1967 war. It is a goal in and of itself, which has generated over the years a high degree of suffering, violence and human rights violations."

mak44you might ... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

mak44

you might be motivated to acts of desperation that someone else would label "terrorist."

If there were never any other option to deliberately targetting civilians and hiding behind children, then Palistinian actions could be described as "acts of desperation". But there is another option, recognize the jewish right to exist.

I think it's appalling to call this terrorism an act of desperation, just as the quotes put around 'terrorist' in your post is. What word could you better attribute to these killers than terrorists? They think they will get their own state and stop Israeli incursions by killing twelve school kids on a bus? Completely on the contrary, these sort of occurances have been rewarded with Israeli military action, furthering the bloodshed and diminishing their chances of freedom.

Don't fall into the trap of pardoning the Palistinians actions because you view them as the underdog. Their actions are no less illegal than some of Israel's. There has always been a way out of this, but since it hasn't involved enough dead jews the Palistinians have chosen to pass it up. Repeatedly.


MAK, you're not going to co... (Below threshold)

MAK, you're not going to convince people that you aren't an anti-israeli mouth-breather if you keep quoting from partisan shinola.

You earlier asked folks to understand what "underlies" pal-Arab resistance. Here it is in a nutshell: in 1948 both the Arabs and the Jews were given a portion of Palestine to build a country with; the Jews made Israel, the Arabs made a war.

Upon losing, they made another war.

Upon losing again, they made another.

Under internationally recognized rules of war, when you continually try to conquer someone and lose, the winner is entitled to take your land. If pal-Arab farmers didn't want to be tossed off their lands then perhaps the pal-Arabs who deign to speak for them maybe oughtn't have tried to start so many wars against Israel.

...and, btw, if you wish to doubt the precept of territorial acquisition, then please endeavor to give East Prussia back to the Germans and huge swaths of many other eastern European countries back to whomever held them at the signing of Westphalia.

"acst of desperation." oh, ... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

"acst of desperation." oh, give me a break. If these were "acts of deperation," then the ones they should be making war against should be Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. who refuse to allow these "refugees" into their countries and do everything they can to keep them poor, dumb and riled up with hatred against Israel instead of actually building a future for themselves.

Stop apologizing for their murderous actions.

mak44,I have somet... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

mak44,

I have something else to quote in response:

Thus, immediately following the war, Eshkol issued a statement that he was willing to negotiate "everything" for a full peace, which would include free passage through the Suez Canal and the Strait of Tiran and a solution to the refugee problem in the context of regional cooperation. This was followed in November 1967 by his acceptance of UN Security Council Resolution 242, which called for "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" in exchange for Arab acceptance of Israel.

The Arab states, however, rejected outright any negotiations with the Jewish state. At Khartoum, Sudan, in the summer of 1967, the Arab states unanimously adopted their famous "three nos": no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiation with Israel concerning any Palestinian territory.

This source is from the U.S. Library of Congress and the full article can be found here: http://countrystudies.us/israel/25.htm

I think it bears in mind to how this started, and it was not from the rabid disregard of international law by expanding Israel, it was by the refusal for Arab (and by proxy Palestinian)negotiation. This in no way excuses Israel's later and continuous violations, but it does shed some light on why we are where we are today, and in my opinion completely defuses the Palestinian "act of desperation" argument.

It it clear that mak44 is a... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

It it clear that mak44 is a typical example of people on the left who are willing to excuse barbaric acts against women and children, esp if they are Israelis.

The palestinians have their... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The palestinians have their own country now. STart building on what you have and stop looking for excuses to annihilate Is.

Heralder et al... (Below threshold)
mak44:

Heralder et al

Since you all see it as one-sided, namely, that Israel has been the only real victim, and that, as a victim of Palestinian terrorism w/ the intent to destroy Israel from its inception, take a look at: Background to the Israel-Palestine Crisis

I'd like to know who thinks they can dispute this history of the events occuring in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

The fact on the ground is t... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The fact on the ground is that Hamas advocated the annihilatin of Is. THe Palestinians have their own state now. Build on what you have. WHy continue blowing up women and children? Why kidnap civilian and low level soldier and torture them to death? WHy lobbing mortars into civilian living area? Why such a disregard for the lives of Israeli women and children?

And why people on the left need to excuse such barbaric actions?

mak44,I don't see ... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

mak44,

I don't see it as one-sided, and I've said as much in my posts. I specifically took issue with the complete justification of Palistinian murder as acts of desperation.

My main point is no one has clean hands, and the time to negotiate for the betterment, and indeed for the sake of the Palestinians has come and passed many times since this problem began. Each time it has been rejected by both the Arabs and the Palestinians. I never once denied Israel was free from illegal action, but I did appeal for you to look at why this began and why it continues.

MAK, you also aren't going ... (Below threshold)

MAK, you also aren't going to get anywhere by continually and dishonestly characterizing the arguments you're attempting to refute. You've done little but invent a whole army of strawmen.

No one has said that Israel is blameless, and at least one has said they are not. But Israel has the law on its side while the Paliestinians and their brainless sympathizers only have anti-semitism on their own.

Yes, bucky, international law allows nations to be high-handed in exactly the ways Israel is being high-handed. Only, when it's Russia being high-handed to Chechens, or China to its own separatists, or Mexico to the the wankers in the south trying to fight a revolution today, no one peeps a peep.

But Israel? A nation of, by and for Jews? Being high-handed to the people who started three wars and countless simmering Intifada?

Now that's unacceptable.

Grow up, wujja please? And before you delve further into world politics, please take more than the one required course in PoliSci.

Heralder,My main poi... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Heralder,
My main point is no one has clean hands, and the time to negotiate for the betterment, and indeed for the sake of the Palestinians has come and passed many times since this problem began. Each time it has been rejected by both the Arabs and the Palestinians. I never once denied Israel was free from illegal action, but I did appeal for you to look at why this began and why it continues.
--------------------------------------------------
I do have issue with this statement. No one is perfect for sure. But in this conflict, Is has behaved admirably. Look at the lives of the Arabs living in Is. If it is so bad, then they are free to move to an Arab country of their choice. Can the Jews live anywhere safely in any Arab country now? The fact alone speaks for itself.

I don't want us to use the "perfection" arg as excuse for moral equivalency.

Mak44 - I don't look on Isr... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Mak44 - I don't look on Israel as "victim." I look on Israel as one who has time and time and time again extended its hand in peace only to have it bitten.

The so-called "Palestinians" have not made one meaningful step toward peace. They have not made one concession. They have not done anything to stop the terrorists in their midst, because many of them are, in fact, terrorists. They have made NO EFFORT whatsoever to do anything other than remain in squalor while blaming ISrael for all of their woes.

Israel has shown remarkable restraint while absorbing blow after blow while insane monsters infiltrate to blow up buses, pizza parlors and market places. Israel COULD wipe them out easily in one summer's worth of campaigning. But they don't. They hold out for peace. But the "Palestinians" cloack themselves in the "victim" mantle while sending in suicide bombers to murder.

I used to have sympathy for the "Palestinians." No more, because the majority don't want peace--as evidenced by their own actions of electing a proven terrorist organization to lead them. They want Israel destroyed.

LoveAmerica Immigrant:... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

LoveAmerica Immigrant:

I don't want us to use the "perfection" arg as excuse for moral equivalency.

I made no attempt to morally equate the two sides here, just an admission that Israel has taken part in illegal actions. That doesn't change my opinion that Israel is right in most of what it does.

The limp-wristed weakness o... (Below threshold)
DOUG BOOK:

The limp-wristed weakness of the Israeli left caused this incident, just as the poll-watching cowardice of the Clinton administration led to 9/11. Now the Israeli Army is doing the only thing followers of this phony religion understand. Hopefully it will be an ongoing display of power.

Epador wrote,"... ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Epador wrote,

"... this current series of "provocations" by Gaza Palestinians is a carefully orchestrated series of events designed to lead to this invasion, perhaps masterminded by an exiled leader. They expect some kind of response from either the surrounding Arab countries, or an AQ-type attack that will be justified by the Israeli "invasion.""

I fully agree. This is so obviously a test of Israel's will and determination. I think the newly-empowered Hamas/terrorist wing of the Palestinian leadership wants to see if Israel still has balls now that Ariel Sharon is gone.

We can all be thankful that Saddam Hussein is out of the picture, so there is at least one less kooky Muslim dictator that Israel has to worry about. Lest we forget -- Saddam attacked Israel without provocation during the 1991 Gulf War.

Hold on a second, Mak. Jew... (Below threshold)

Hold on a second, Mak. Jews had been living in the area known as Palestine for thousands of years prior to the formation of the state by the United Nations. Palestine was never a country. It was only the name of a territory assigned by the British. Just as Christians cherish the land, it was always a homeland to the Jews. Where else were they to turn when everything they owned was taken away from them during the Holocaust? Why would they want to go back to Germany or Poland? They were just as entitled to be there as the Arabs.

Mak44Please explai... (Below threshold)

Mak44

Please explain to me why someone should have sympathy towards a group of people represented by a known terrorist group who just recently "allegedly agreed" to recognize Israel and agree to limit their attacks to territories within the West bank (see CNN story from yesterday). Please - sympathy for a group of people who elected a terrorist group? Why is it that their President to the World Media says one thing and then towards the Arab Media says the total opposite - see mediawatch.com?

Wake up and smell reality

Since we are discussing ter... (Below threshold)
McCain:

Since we are discussing terminology, I assume that Jay is referring to terrorists when he refers repeatedly to "the Palestinians" in his piece, and I assume he means the Palestinians currently living in those lands. Even those Palestinians are not a monolithic group of people as their last election showed. Hamas got too many votes but they did not get 50% of the vote. I am going to guess that Jay is talking about Palestinian Hamas terrorists rather than Palestinians.

And the problem with a response, of course, is identifying morally appropriate targets in response. Which Palestinians do you kill in response, and how much risk do you take to assure a strike actually accomplishes that goal? That is the problem that often confounds Israel's response to these actions.

So when we gleefully shout in the Agora about an eye for an eye, do we cheer any random Palestinian death as a proper retribution? Or is Jay arguing for the killing of Hamas terrorist members? That would be nothing new as Israel has rightfully always claimed the right and often pursued that course.

Actually, COgirl, the name ... (Below threshold)

Actually, COgirl, the name "palestine" was assigned by the Romans after the second diaspora. The Roman province was "judea" because Hebrews were the largest ethnic group in the area, and they called it Judea. But after the Jews had their second uprising [~75AD] the Romans forcibly resettled about half the Jews throughout the Roman Empire, razed the temple in Jerusalem, forbade Jews from setting foot in Jerusalem on pain of death, and just to rub salt in the wound, renamed the province after the second-most dominant ethnic group: the Philistines.

"Philistia" in Latin was "Palestine".

But you're right, the standard canard of "the jews never lived in palestine until the late 1880s" is patently false. They've lived there non-stop for 5,000 years -- diaspora and all.

I stand corrected on who as... (Below threshold)

I stand corrected on who assigned the name Palestine to the region. I was referring to recent history, however, two points are still valid. Palestine was never a country (just a name of a territory) and second, Jews have been living there for thousands of years.

"(I'll forgive anyone who's... (Below threshold)

"(I'll forgive anyone who's hearing that certain "Turn, Turn, Turn" song in their head right now.)"

But Big Mo... what makes you think we'll forgive *you*? ;-)

But Big Mo... what makes... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

But Big Mo... what makes you think we'll forgive *you*? ;-)

Exactly, mobilize the tanks. :D

There is not much hope for ... (Below threshold)

There is not much hope for Palestinians until they become willing to give up the perpetual role they have adopted for themselves, as the poor, innocent victims of Israel. As long as they subscribe to that balony, Palistinians will remain simply the dupes of terrorist factions throughout the Middle East too cowardly to do their own dirty work.

BigMax, since the world all... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

BigMax, since the world allows them to do it, why would they ever stop the "woe is me" crap?

-=Mike




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