This portion of the Stengel quote caught my attention:

...the judicious questioning of the conduct and morality of war...

That is really the crux of the matter isn't it? The left has sought to convince us that it is this war in this time and this place that is particuarly immoral. The truth is, they are against every war.

It's not easier to be patriotic if you're a conservative, it's simply easier to justify. You see, it's easier for a lefty to be patriotic, simply because for them someone who is patriotic is completely indistinguishable from someone who is not patriotic, so it requires no effort. Now, the difficulty for a lefty is in convincing people that their traitorous behavior really is patriotism. Conservatives have the tougher time, as they have to do things like suffer the slings and arrows of anti-Americanism so rampant throughout the elites of the world and actually stand in defense of their country, but at least they don't have the problems with cognitive dissonance.

The entire country may disagree with me, but I don't understand the necessity for patriotism.

It's pretty clear she doesn't.

I'm sure it can be (and will be) said much better by other posters, but the DK quote you lifted above, Lorie, exemplifies in my mind the majority of lefty carping. "How can I say I'm proud to be an American when [add your own indictment of the US here]."
I'm not blind. I know the USA has done many things over the years for which we should feel shame. Slavery. The Mexican War. The Trail of Tears. The Scottsboro Boys. But those incidents, though committed by Americans, are not representative of America. I don't know of any honest conservative who wants to whitewash the past and say "well, we had to clear the Injuns out to grow the railroads. Screw them." We don't excuse barbarity, but we realize that we have not always lived up to the words of what Pauline Meier called "American Scripture:"

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Patriotism is being proud of your country despite her flaws, because of the heights she has reached. God knows I loathed the Syphilitic Hillbilly and his shrewish Evita with the best of them, and though I cursed the less than 50% who elected the bum, I never let my rage at Clinton make me ashamed to be an American (though I was certainly embarrassed, when Monica pulled out her blue dress).

If your initial reaction to July Fourth is not "how fortunate I am to live here; how can I help make this a better country," but "how can I be proud when soldiers rape and murder / BushHitler is pResident / we're a racist Amerikka / whatr's wrong with Kansas," then, yes, maybe we should question your patriotism.

I'm one of those people who feels uncomfortable at ostentatious displays of patriotism. Don't know why. But it doesn't stop there. When masses of people lay bare emotions and feelings I feel like I'm intruding and I cannot understand why I don't get caught up it; and I wonder what they think because I don't get caught up in it. I'm probably just not much of a joiner.

That said, I travel a lot, and the United States is home. Always will be. When the man or woman at Customs and Immigration stamps my passport and says "welcome home" I always appreciate it.

Two corrections should be made to the above thread:

First, Lorie, GOPers remaining patriotic during Clinton can not equate to Dems during Bush. GOPers by and large love and support our nation. Dems by and large do not.

Second, Jeff Blogworthy, it is NOT true that Dems are against every war. Dems favor our involvement in wars where our national security and defense are not at stake, such as Bosnia.

You know, I hope none of these people who can't seem to find patriotism at all appealing never have children. Not because I am not wanting them to breed or any such nonsense as that. But if there has to be perfection in somethig before they can feel pride in it, their kids are gonna grow up in one of the most dysfunctional families around. Kids, and people in general, are imperfect. If I can not feel good about the fact that my seven year old son did something good, without pointing out to all in earshot that he broke a window when he was four, there is something wrong with that.

Hell, I wonder what adult realtionships are like with those kind of prefectionists. "Honey, I am home!" "Yeah, but you were late five days ago!"

JSchuler swings true and cmd hits the nail. Again it comes down to understanding what the word means, and how to apply it. So easy for either side to distort, to contend that blind allegiance is what patriotism is all about. The strength of our country remains in those who do understand and apply with a pride tempered with humility and without hate, spite and scorn.

Here in Austin there are thousands of cars with "Dissent is Patriotic" bumper stickers. Most of these lefties bash the U.S., hate our military and embrace the enemies of our country. Still, they do have the constitutional right to do so. That does not make them patriotic. A more appropriate bumper sticker might read, "Tolerating Dissent is Patriotic". The "dissenters" may hate our country, but because I love our country I'll pur up with them.

GOPers by and large love and support our nation. Dems by and large do not.

Neoconservative propaganda. There are Democrats on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq, and what you have said about them denigrates and demoralizes that considerable portion of our troops who identify themselves as Democrats.

In other words, you don't support our troops, and are giving comfort to the Islamofascists who are trying to destroy us.

It seems that for many of the people posting here, a display of patriotism means putting down fellow Americans. Saying they're traitors, they shouldn't have kids, they hate their country and the soldiers.

Without going into comments about what "many" means, I would point out that finding a proportion of folks making denigrating comments, implied or direct, on either side of an argument does nothing to support or detract from the basis for the arguments. They are distractors.

"Dems by and large do not." A bit of a distortion. However an undeniably visible proportion of folks who are seen as part of the Democrats, do exhibit behavior and spout words that support the allegation. And they are not shunned by the mainstream. Sadly, the Right has a similar problem. Both of these are also distractors.

"I'm exercising the right not to walk."

--Dalton, Dead Poets Society

I can speak from first hand experience. Despite all her flaws and the attempt to hijact its history by the left, America is still the greatest country on earth and probably in history. Objectively, America has brought freedom and prosperity to the most number of people on earth. America has saved the world from fascism and communism, the two bloodiest tyranical reigns in history so far. America is the only one leading the fight against Islamic fascism today. You can be proud of this great nation and there is nothing wrong with the display of patriotism on this July 4th celebration. It is easy to take this country for granted if you have been born and growing up here.

The beauty of the U.S. Constitution you seem to think the left and right can agree upon is like the blind men and their respective views of the elephant. The left seems to gravitate to the ass-end of the elephant and come up with crap. Example: Article One: Legislative power belong to Congress. The left interprets this to mean that the judiciary can legislate when the law of the land conflicts with their social/political agenda. Article Two: The President shall be commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the U.S.and of the militia of the several States. The left interprets this to mean that Congress and Supreme Court can override his decisions, the media can drive presidential decisions with "polls", any State governor (Schwarteneger)can refuse to send militia to serve at the order of the President. Article Three: The judicial power shall extend to all cases in law and equity arising under this constitution, the laws of the United States.... The left believes the Supremes are free to bring foreign laws into their decisions. and to legislate, which is beyond their constitutional powers. Article Four: The United States shall guaranty to every State in this Union a republican form of government, and shall protect them against invasion.... Think illegal aliens here - by the millions. Article Six: Senators, Legislators, members of State legislatures, all executives and judicial officers of the U.S. and of the several States shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this constitution.... For the left, this means only those parts that don't conflict with their "personal belief system", however unconstitutional and crack-pot that might be.

Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if your head is up the elephant's ass, your "constitutional" view point is, well, just shitty.

astigafa, the Democrat Party (and its MSM ally) does, in fact, give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy. Hence, people who claim to be Democrat voters, give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy. (That seems pretty clear, doesn't it?)

Patriotism isn't an exclusively Republican or Democratic emotion. When you deny patriotism you, at least, deny solidarity with the rich body of tradition that is America and at worse you deny that which has made you what you are.

Whether you voted for, or despise the current occupant of the White House he (or, someday she) is your President. To deny this is to deny the validity of the democratic pincipal.

Whittaker Chambers describes patriotism as "...Feeling the forming influances of your country to such a degree that you can't envision life without them." Is this not true for each of us? Especially for those who are politically motivated (unless your political motivation is to destroy what it means to be an American).

Brad, precisely, "unless your political motivation is to destroy what it means to be an American". Isn't that exactly what the Democrats and their MSM allies are doing?

Am I missing something here?

One thing it seems most everyone, right and left, can agree on is the beauty of the U.S. Constitution and appreciation for the freedoms we are so blessed to experience. I agree especially the Bill of Rights and the checks and balances inherent in the Constitution..This is why we must be so careful of any branch of government usurping the powers of the other two. It is certanly more than a ...piece of paper or parchment.

Steve Crickmore, "checks and balances" issue is continuing to be misapplied. The MSM and the Dems (and I fear you) are really referring to a "checks and balances" between GOP and Dems. What if, pray tell, the three branches of Govt. are controlled by GOP: Executive, Congress, Courts!!! That's no "checks and balances" problem. We have no "checks and balances problem". It's a phony issue!

Ted, using the present, rather unique, political situation as evidence that a checks and balances system does not exist as envisioned by the Constitution is a very weak arguement. It is no fault of the Constitution or the electorate that the Democratic Party's message has not been enthusiastically embraced to a degree that would afford them significant clout in the legislature or White House. I am sure at some point that will change when the Dems freely undergo a journey of serious introspection.

astigufa, an example of twisted logic so common amoung the leftoids.

The history of America developing is a fantastic thing of admiration. The things our people have done under the protection of freedom is something done no where else. I can think of no other place to be as domany million across the world.

God Bless America...

God bless and protect this "last best hope" for mankind!

The Dimocrats love to disclaim and decry every action of this country that occurs when THEY are not in power. This part-time "patriotism" is really fickleness borne of a lust for power.

Yes, Republicans have their villians too. But the leading voices of the Dims these days are dangerous in their disparaging of the USA.

Durbin, Kerry and Dean have ALL loudly and repreatedly declared US the "terroriists" of the world. And Jimmy Carter seeks out every microphone he can to rail against our President!!

ted

You drooled, like the true patriot that you think you are, "astigafa, the Democrat Party (and its MSM ally) does, in fact, give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy. Hence, people who claim to be Democrat voters, give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy. (That seems pretty clear, doesn't it?)"

Just where the hell is your evidence for your puerile and absurd allegation?

Apparently you can't even follow the reasonably balanced lead of this topic, patriotism, as Lorie wrote it. You are NO patriot; just an obvious boob/slob who would march to the beat of any tyrant's drum. You are exactly the kind of pseudo-patriot of the right that makes so many of us on the Left want to PUKE.

Your patriotic salute is no different than a Deutscher Gruß.

mak44..."Just where the hell is your evidence for your puerile and absurd allegation?"

I'm sure Ted can provide lots more, but a simple example is the frequency with which Democrat TALKING POINTS wind up on Islamofascist websites, in the ramblings of Zark (Rest in Hell), and Binny's bi-monthly "newsletters".

it happens a LOT!

mak has arrived, let the poo flinging begin!

Mak44, how patriotic of you to point out your unbias opinion of what Ted posted. But Mak33, you alone have supplied the best example of what Ted was writing about. So Mak22, you are the answer to your own allegation. I'll bet, Mak11 that you are a charter member of the Daily Kos. All I can say, Mak00, is, is that you Bill Keller?

mak44 the evidence of Teds assertions is simply reading any one of your posts. that proves his point exactly.

astigafa, the Democrat Party (and its MSM ally) does, in fact, give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy. Hence, people who claim to be Democrat voters, give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy. (That seems pretty clear, doesn't it?)

No, it doesn't. Please include some links purporting to tie the DemocratIC party to support of the "Islamofacists". The CCM (corrupt corporate media) will serve the interests of the "right" before it does those of the "left" any time the purse strings and desire to climb the ladder are considerations.
But let me ask again - give me some examples, please.

I'm sure Ted can provide lots more, but a simple example is the frequency with which Democrat TALKING POINTS wind up on Islamofascist websites, in the ramblings of Zark (Rest in Hell), and Binny's bi-monthly "newsletters".

it happens a LOT!

Ah, yet another idiotic rant torn straight from the front page of idiots like Rush and Ann of the Adam's Apple's facist ramblings.

1. Logic lesson: There are varying opinions within any country on any current issues. Since one "side" opposes the war in Iraq (note: I thought Afghanistan was necessary and worthwile), it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that the enemy would latch onto the arguments coming from within the country that are contrary to that against which they are fighting.
The fact that the enemy chooses to glom onto one side of a LEGITIMATE discussion within our national discourse does not by extension invalidate that side of the discussion - unless you're a 6th grader on the playground without logical faculties. GIve me some examples of "Democrat talking points"

2. What are you doing reading "Islamofacist Websites"? Can you even NAME one of these sites?!
I can't.

P.S. -

I have no problem singing the National Anthem (still chokes me up sometimes), flying a flag on the Fourth of July, and being proud of all the good things my country has done.
Furthermore, I give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who has served their country in the Armed Forces, and think that the neocon rightwing nutcases such as those of you who frequent this site, are criminals and should be prosecuted for denigrating the military service records of ONLY the people who disagree with your worldview (for whatever that's worth to a sixth grader).
The right consists of paranoid, frightened bed wetters who think that the world is coming to get them, and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is worthy of being "swift boated" - nevermind that the Veep and most of the Repugs in Congress never served a day in their miserable lives.
Do you want a list of prominent Dems vs. Repugs who have served in the Forces?

Hypocrites and sissies.

Nice to see that there will be plenty of asshats out in force this weekend practicing their "Hate Thy Neighbor if They Aren't Like Me" approach to patriotism.

Ahhh, stupid americans at their finest! To you folks I hope that the concussion of a "too close" firework knocks you out cold, and that you wake up afterwards forgetting that you are programmed to hate, and start practicing the kind of patriotic love of this country and our fellow americans that the rest of us are celebrating.

We have a lot to be thankful for, living in in the greatest country in the world. It's time to celebrate!

You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its office-holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags -- that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it.

- Hank Morgan, from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court by Mark Twain

I have no problem with patriotism. I am loyal to my country and its ideals, not its clothing.

Lee your satyr is wonderful!!! Have you thought about contributing to hatebush.com? Did you get a gold star for composition?

While your posts are funny my time is limited to reading the post by adults...

KC, "strawman argument" you make:

Ted said:
"astigafa, the Democrat Party (and its MSM ally) does, in fact, give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy. Hence, people who claim to be Democrat voters, give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy. (That seems pretty clear, doesn't it?)

KC said:
"No, it doesn't. Please include some links purporting to tie the DemocratIC party to support of the "Islamofacists"."

KC, I DIDN'T SAY 'TIE THE DEMOCRAT PARTY TO SUPPORT OF THE ISLAMOFACISTS'" I said "give aid and support to our Islamofascist enemy".

KC, if a cursory review of the news does not reveal this to you, then an explanation would do no good.

And, on the "checks and balances" issue, I was not complaining about a lack of checks and balance, I was merely saying there's no lack of checks and balance as envisioned in our constitution just because the GOP currently controls the three branches of Government. It's the Dems who are incorrectly claiming a lack of checks and balance.

(Comments in response, from my own site:)\

With all respect to Lorie, this isn't murky at all, nor is it a hard question.

The truth is, that America has many enemies. She always has. However, the amount of enemies that she faces from within has never been larger than today. This is not due to America being less great, but rather because we have become complacent about the enemies among us.

There is a fine line between dissent and openly working for the other side, but it';s hardly a murky one. I draw the line this way:

The patriotic descent I can understand, and even respect. There's a proper argument that must happen As to how to achieve the goals as expressed by the founders of this country. I have long and loud and often quite publicly, argued with some about how best to achieve those goals. I have no argument with people who hold those goals dear. Where we often differ, is how best to achieve them. That is a healthy and just argument. Until recently, that has been the nature of politics here in the United States; a discussion... an argument... of how best to achieve those goals.

However, in recent years, (the last 60 or so ) the nature of that argument has begun to change, and the rate of change has become a dramatic within the last twenty years or so. Which brings us to the point where we are now; the kind of hatred, as Lorie mentions, coming from both outside and inside these United States, goes way outside those boundaries of argument, and, rather argues toward goals that are dramatically different from what the founders envisioned. That's not patriotism. That's working for the other side.

Lorie suggests:

For those on the left worried that if they wave a flag tomorrow they might be thought to be supporting the President of the United States, or the U.S. military, or American capitalism, relax. Fly the flag, sing some patriotic songs, shoot off some fireworks, eat some hot dogs. I did when Bill Clinton was President and no one that I know got the impression that I was endorsing him. One thing it seems most everyone, right and left, can agree on is the beauty of the U.S. Constitution and appreciation for the freedoms we are so blessed to experience. I encourage everyone on the right and left alike to celebrate what you find great about this country.

If you were to ask the KOSsacks, they'd say 'yes'.

Is America are allowed to protect itself, through military action.. example, Iraq...

If you were to ask the KOSsacks, they'd say 'no'.

In both cases, people not sitting way out on the left side of the street will give you the opposite answer to both questions.

These are merely two examples of how the central question of what the constitution says and means are vastly different. The end effect of those different perceptions can be seen quite clearly in the land of Kos, on the Memorial day, Flag day, and the Fourth of July. there are obvious and distaste for the days and what they represent is quite clear for anyone to see. Make no mistake whatever, here. These people want a weaker America. They are ever working for that goal.

The left are not alone in this. There are those who will claim that they are working toward the freedom of the individual. In doing so, oftentimes, they will dump on the founders and the ideals that they expressed, just as the left do.

Both these groups willingly ignore the fact that this America has become without any question or reservation whatsoever to free his nation on the face of the planet because of those ideas and ideals, and the culture that they gave birth to. They further neglect the concept that moving away from those ideas and ideals, and that culture, as expressed by this country's founders threatens to demolish the very individual freedom they claim to support.

For myself, I hope for.. and work for... a day where a strong America.. a world-leading America... with minimal government intervention, is moving back to the original purpose of government. That in fact is the purpose for this blog... the very reason I started it, and the reason I've posted some 5500 articles in it. These are purposes, that those groups as I've spoken of, to this day, cannot bring themselves to understand.

Admittedly; At this stage of the game, I don't see achievement of that goal happening in my lifetime. Still, I will work, I will struggle, I will write, I will speak, .....all to the achievement of that goal.

And I will honor... as both an instinctive and conscious reaction, those who serve those ideas and ideals true, while in Uniform. (Which is one reason I latched onto McQ's "Project Hero". ) AS I said a few months ago:

Call me old school, if you will... but when somebody's laying their life on the line for me I tend to be appreciative. At the very least, respectful. Alas, that our veterans of today are getting so little of each as to make one wonder.

It occurs to me that the people that are protesting our even having a military, much less using it, do not understand such concepts because they do not understand that there is something larger than the individual.... something larger than self. I do not deny the statements that the self, that the individual, is important , vital. Yet, there comes times, and situations, where self must morally, and logically, take a back seat.

That's a patriot, in my view. A patriot, to the original ideas of these United States of America as exemplified by the words... and deeds... of our founders. Ideas and ideals, which, while not perfect, have made us the strongest most prosperous and yes, the most free nation on earth. And those working against such of the military, and what they defenmd, are not. This isn't murky... this is clear-cut.

If you do not understand or do not agree with what I'm saying here, rest assured that I'll be working against you . No matter what flag you decide to wrap yourself in.

Posted by: Lee at July 3, 2006 01:46 PM

Kettle, meet Pot.

Nice to see that there will be plenty of asshats out in force this weekend practicing their "Hate Thy Neighbor if They Aren't Like Me" approach to patriotism.

Then in the very next paragraph, this pearl . . .

Ahhh, stupid americans at their finest! To you folks I hope that the concussion of a "too close" firework knocks you out cold snip . . .

Good to see you are joining in on that practice, asshat.

We have a lot to be thankful for, living in in the greatest country in the world. It's time to celebrate!

We will celebrate even more when you create a post that has something of substance Lee. Until then, you are a continuing troll who still has not answered questions to support your POV.

Nicely snipped, but for the record:

Ahhh, stupid americans at their finest! To you folks I hope that the concussion of a "too close" firework knocks you out cold, and that you wake up afterwards forgetting that you are programmed to hate, and start practicing the kind of patriotic love of this country and our fellow americans that the rest of us are celebrating.

DavidB - you can skip the wake up part. Everyone else, enjoy the holiday.

Definition of patriotism:

Love and devotion to one's country and willing to sacrifice for it.

You can't just proclaim it, you live it.

Anyway you cut it Lee, you are wishing hurt on another person. That's sort of hateful in my, and many others, book.

Oh, and since it wasn't that far above mine, it wouldn't be too difficult to go back and read the original, it was just snipped for brevity.

The point still stands, Kettle, meet Pot.

Oh, and that you still can't support your POV with factoids . . . .

Oh, and that you still can't support your POV with factoids . . . .

Right; can't prove a negative, and since the majority of broadcast, print and streamed media do not hate America and are not giving aid and comfort to the enemy, he can't prove that they're not. As for Lorie's point:

According to recent entries, some at Daily Kos don't want to appear patriotic, lest their patriotism be interpreted as support for a president they hate.

And there are people on the left who genuinely believe that humor and even laughter are undesireable human expressions; if A is laughing, B must be crying, they will tell you. And the fact that those people are out there saying this crap proves nothing, about anyone or anything. Go read www.stormfront.org; they're not lefty moonbats, so they've got to be your natural Rightist allies, people you love and trust, right?

DavidB, Astrand, Jainphx, Bithead, Serfer 62 et al

Looks like a lot of Rightie hate here in most of these posts. You hate-patriots really do expose what your American Patriotism is all about, HATE

The clear impression in most of these moronic Pavlovian posts is intolerance & hatred of dissent & dissenters. Any foreigner reading this site would come away w/ the clear impression that the Right is filled w/ pathological hatred of anyone or any idea different based on the swill that this Choir sings.

Just the kind of knee-jerk jingoidtic patriotism ripe for the first tyrant who comes along.

There isn't a one in this sour crowd who wouldn't have been a Tory during the American Revolution. So why the hell do you celebrate? What this day represents and what this Constitution represents, you all, had you been alive in the 18th Century, would have despised because you would have been another George's minions.

Apologies for not having a dictionary of internet abbreviations. Does "mak" mean:

moron@keyboard

????

mak44 at July 3, 2006 03:44 PM said:

Looks like a lot of Rightie hate here in most of these posts. You hate-patriots really do expose what your American Patriotism is all about, HATE

I suppose that the tenor of your comments in this post and earlier are filled with LOVE, Michael?

twolaneflash

Don't know about that, but according to the Internet Dictionary that you mentioned, twolaneflash is the polite spelling for Buttplug.

MAK:

Hate?

I'm reminded of a famous line from a movie ;

"You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means. "

As much as you'd like to project this statement of mine as hate, what it really is is something that you will never understand, apparently... principle. The principles in this case has laid down by the founders.

Or are you going to suggest that they, too, are filled with hate, because their ideas and ideals don't match with your socialist vision?

You speak of the perception of foreigners. Here's one that ought to make your head explode:

Would said foreigners, in the name of 'love' allowed you into their country and their society, and their culture, without your first adopting the foundational principles of the country?

Oh, happy day! I've pissed off another asshat! Muslim Ass Kisser

I'm sick of all this pussyfooting around. Liberals and Democrats are traitors. When the hell are we going to stop talking about it and start treating them as they should be treated?

They should be rounded up and put in jail. Our nation is at war and yet we allow them to endanger our soldiers and our lives!

Come on people. When does the talking stop and the action begin?

I linked my patriotism 4th of July post here, hope that's okay.

Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
--Governor George W. Bush (R-TX

Clock Maker--- Shhhh. We're not supposed to talk about that until they give the secret signal.

Steve Crickmore - yeah, he said that. And
that was before he became president and took on all the responsibilities and burdens of being the commander-in-chief.

And I think he's been quite clear: we leave when the Iraqis are fully capable of defending themselves. What's so damn difficult about understanding that?

So what's your point? Or was that just another trademark liberal gratuitous swipe with a comment/quote taken out of context?

And by the way, I notice we're STILL in Kosovo - a place where Clinton took us and NEVER provided an exit strategy.

Let's:

"Be kind to our web-footed friends,
For a Duck might be somebody's mother..."

Are we done flinging poo yet? Or are the Yahoos still in control?

mak44 and Lee keep saying they are all about teh love and teh real patriotism.

But I don't think it means what they think it means.

Today, in the United States, it is popular among self-styled "intellectuals" to sneer at patriotism. They seem to think that it is axiomatic that any civilized man is a pacifist, and they treat the military profession with contempt. "Warmongers"--"Imperialists"--"Hired killers in uniform"--you have all heard such sneers and you will hear them again. One of their favorite quotations is: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

What they never mention is that the man who made that sneering remark was a fat, gluttonous slob who was pursued all his life by a pathological fear of death.

I propose to prove that that baboon on watch is morally superior to that fat poltroon who made that wisecrack.

Patriotism is the most practical of all human characteristics.

But in the present decadent atmosphere patriots are often too shy to talk about it--as if it were something shameful or an irrational weakness.

But patriotism is NOT sentimental nonsense. Nor something dreamed up by demagogues. Patriotism is as necessary a part of man's evolutionary equipment as are his eyes, as useful to the race as eyes are to the individual.

A man who is NOT patriotic is an evolutionary dead end. This is not sentiment but the hardest of logic.Robert A. Heinlein, April 5, 1973, lecture at the Naval Academy

Whoops... blockquote tags messed up.

>>>"So what's your point? Or was that just another trademark liberal gratuitous swipe with a comment/quote taken out of context?

And by the way, I notice we're STILL in Kosovo - a place where Clinton took us and NEVER provided an exit strategy."

No exit strategy in Kosovo. USA still there - Bad. (Clinton's bad.)

No exit strategy in Iraq. USA still there. - Good. (Bush is good.)

Glad we cleared that up.

THE WAR (SCORE) CARD

World War Two:

Duration of USA involvement - December 7, 1941 to August 15, 1945 - 44 months (approx.)

Result: Axis Powers - Germany, Italy and Japan defeated.

Mussolini, Hitler dead.

Casualties:

oviet Union* 8,668,000 16,900,000 25,568,000
China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
Japan 1,506,000 300,000 1,806,000
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,700,000
Rumania* 520,000 465,000 985,000
France* 340,000 470,000 810,000
Hungary* 750,000
Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
Greece* 520,000
Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
Czechoslovakia 400,000
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
USA 295,000 295,000
Holland 14,000 236,000 250,000Belgium 10,000 75,000 85,000
Finland 79,000 79,000
Canada 42,000 42,000
India 36,000 *** 36,000
Australia 39,000 39,000
Spain** 12,000 10,000 22,000
Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000
New Zealand 12,000 12,000
South Africa 9,000 9,000
Norway 5,000 5,000
Denmark 4,000 4,000

Total circa 61 Million

The Global War on Terror:

Duration of USA involvement- September 11, 2001 to Present - 58 months

Result: The Axis of Evil not defeated. Hussein deposed from power, Iraq in midst of civil war. Insurgency still wreaking havoc. Baghdad not secured after three years of USA troops occupying it. Iran working toward nuclear weapon. North Korea testing long range missle to deliever nuclear weapon. US/EU talks with Iran ongoing. Negotiations with North Korea non-existent.

Casualties: http://icasualties.org/oif/

The facts speak for themselves.

Exit strategy my aunt Hanna,theres only one exit strategy its called Victory,thats some thing people like macoo. wouldn't understand. He's perfectly suited to the cut and run crowd.

No, facts do not speak for themselves.
Facts just lie there.
PEOPLE speak.

Whereas you....

Well, I'll be kind.

By the bithead Your post I have one word for you and thats BRAVO!

ONE MORE TIME: We leave Iraq when the Iraqis are strong enough to manage their own defense. By the (leaked) words of Gen. Casey and by the statements of the Iraqi government, that seems like it may well happen by the end of 2008.

WHAT IS SO DAMN DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT, LIBERALS?

Or has your hatred of Bush and conservatives so blinded you to the obvious that ...

ah, screw it. Never mind. I'll go explain it to my dogs. They'll understand much better than you liberals would.

Patriotism means putting God, our Country and our Flag above all else . Except our families and loved ones. And Our President, who if he is weakened would cause us to lose all the above.

Those liberals are now using the Constitution to attack him which is not how it was intended, if they want to put a piece of paper above our elected Leader then they are going against centuries of tradition. But we Republicans will not allow that to happen if we can regain the majority opinion to our side.

Because, you know, reconstruction and civil peace began on August 15, 1945. (That Berlin airlift thing is a myth.) Yes, children, on the morning of August 16, 1945 it was all over except for the parades.

Iraq has always had an exit strategy... it just hasn't had a *time line*. Leaving the country with a functioning government has *always* been the plan. You'd think, you really *really* would think that liberals would agree that this is a GOOD thing. I mean, that's a liberal thing, right? Social justice and democracy and equality. But apparently they don't. Rather than push for that result they (some noisy ones anyhow) just want us to go home now.

I have to conclude that they do IN FACT believe in justice and equality and the establishment of liberal democracies... they just don't believe that anyone not as enlightened as they are can achieve those things. Belief that those people over there are living people, just like in America, is naive... they aren't living people just like us but *different*.

Respecting the differences means ending this foolish plan to establish democracy in a middle eastern setting and get the hell out before more Americans die. (Iraqis will keep dying, but who the heck cares.)

Mouth

Are you advocating we fight the Islamofascists like we fought WWII?

Where do you want the B-52's to start, and which cities do you want nuked?

Shall we start with, say, Mecca?

Result: The Axis of Evil not defeated. Hussein deposed from power, Iraq in midst of civil war. Insurgency still wreaking havoc. Baghdad not secured after three years of USA troops occupying it. Iran working toward nuclear weapon. North Korea testing long range missle to deliever nuclear weapon. US/EU talks with Iran ongoing. Negotiations with North Korea non-existent.

WWII --- left NOT working against the US cause.
GWOT --- left ACTIVELY working against the US cause.
-=Mike

Cannon Mouth

We have not yet begun to fight. The Spartans and Thespaeans gave us a good start at Thermopylae in 480 B.C., thus saving Western civilization in its infancy. This skirmish in Iraq is just the world awaking to the true nature of the enemy. Europe will awaken, but as in WWI and WWII, they will pay a dear price before their hearts believe what their eyes see. The enemy is a death cult of enslavement; islam is intolerant of individual liberty, equality of sexes, freedom of religion. Islam and/or its followers must be destroyed, crushed, annhialated. It is not a belief system with which America, or any freedom loving people, can peacefully coexist.

Your view is very short-sighted Cannon. You badly underestimate the Christian soldier. God's love for the Jewish people, who have fought these inhuman beasts successfully with one hand tied behind them, may yet show mankind The Light through these, again, dark times.

All Christians and Jews should pray for God's judgment on these unGodly followers of hatred and evil, and that we be blessed to be the weapon in His Hands. His will be done.

Buttplug aka 2lane trash

"All Christians and Jews should pray for God's judgment on these unGodly followers of hatred and evil, and that we be blessed to be the weapon in His Hands. His will be done."

From that drool that you posted, you are certifibly INSANE. You are ONE RELIGIOUS KOOK.

mak44,
If you are intellectually honest, you would celebrate dissent, right? The left should be happy when more people show dissent, esp dissent against the corrupt ideology of the left. Or do you want people acquiese to the leftist propaganda as done in communist countries?

America is the greatest country on earth and in history. That 's a simple fact. I am an immigrant to this country. So all those foreigners who don't think America is the greatest country, then they don't have to come here. If you don't like this country, then feel free to go to a better country of your choice.

Mak44 is simply project his own hate on other people. He is a perfect example of what is wrong with the modern left.

mak44

you are certifibly INSANE. You are ONE RELIGIOUS KOOK.

And Islamists are ... ?

Isn't it educational to see what sets off mak44?

Religious kook? My what a tollerant POS you are Mak. We really don't need to wait for God's judgement to come if we simply ENFORCE THE FRICKEN LAWS ALREADY IN THE DAMN BOOKS. The Traitors and despicable democrats would piss their pants the second they saw one of their fellow cowards swinging from a rope. Democrat perpetual fraud would instantly die and they would be forced to realize that us Americans are not going to let them shame themselves and our Country in the proccess. They will actually have to work for a living and think and I don't mean "think of lies". "It's hard work" , Which is why George W Bush is doing. Democrats can't put a bullet in the ass they just fed from.

Darleen

There is no significant number of islamic terrorists among us. But there are far too many religious & ethnocentric bigots and looneies like 2lanetrash in our midst for the good of this nation. The insanity illustrated in his/her post is far more likely to take our country down the toilet than any terrorist could ever hope to accomplish.

You imply that Islamists, over 1 billion of the world's population are "insane." This is just another aspect of the fanacticism of 2lanetrash & his religious kookism.

You are not a well woman.

RobLACa

Your post speaks for itself; another raving ranting kook.

I am amazed that the folks at Wizbang, a number of whom are at least rational, don't find some way to ban you lest the whole lot of them look like the asshole you are.

Mak,

Spoken like a true coward. Why dould anyone ban me for speaking my mind? Especially when facts always prove you wrong and a liar?

"ban you lest the whole lot of them look like the asshole you are".

You really know ho to strong arm folks don't ya?

You are just like Hilary Clinton behind closed doors, an evil bitter maniacal fraud afraid of their own shadow and even more afraid of the facts and the truth spoken about them. They must shut them up because they have a date with destiny and nothing better get in their way.

"Find some way" ? Sounds so much like the democrats desparation as they "SAY ANYTHING" "DO WHATEVER IT TAKES" and now we can add "FIND SOME WAY" TO THE LIST OF HOW TO DECEIVE THE PUBLIC AND TAKE BACK POWER.

mak44

YOUR MUCH TOO STUPID TO KNOW HOW DUMB YOUR ARE.

RobLACa

You just prove my point above,man. You just ain't right in the head.

A small sample of your silliness: " You are just like Hilary Clinton behind closed doors, an evil bitter maniacal fraud afraid of their own shadow... "

I am awed that you have been behind "closed doors" w/ Hillary. I imagine you hear voices as well. Seeing "visions" can't be far behind, if that isn't happening already.

So they do "Holiday Passes" at the institutions in California?

Mak44

"I am awed that you have been behind "closed doors" w/ Hillary".

Mo Mak44 you are just plagued with "Democritis" the inability to interpret what you read as it is written and just talking out of your ass (lies).By all means do not stop I will thank you come election time if it's any consolation for another democrat defeat well done.

Roto-Rooter 1, please report to this thread: sewage backing up and has overtaken all posts. You are cleared to operate BFO* is deemed necessary. After dislogding all Yahoos, contact Houyhnhnm Central for further orders.

*Blood For Odin

MAK

Thank you for the compliment. I am a fool for Jesus, and take Him at His Word, especially when it comes to the consequences of evil. I know He loved those thieves who died with Him, and He did not stop the taking of their lives (wonder why?). If you are incapable of distinguishing good and evil, you are truly lost. I am commanded by Him Whom I follow to hate evil, and to leave he who will not hear His message of Love to destroy their very own soul. That free will thing can be a hard bitch - you decided already. Sorry for you I am. Pray for you I will. Please abuse me some more so God knows I'm trying.

P.S. The answer is that the law of the land must be obeyed, and the wages of sin must be paid. Somebody is running up quite an evil debt load, with no positive moral cash flow.

Happy 230th Birthday America. Thank you, all my fellow veterans, for your unselfish service to freedom. Special thank to you, my son, for your service in Iraq at FOB Paliwoda. God is with you. Free will is His gift to each of us. Keep fighting.

Happy 230th Birthday America. Thank you, all my fellow veterans, for your unselfish service to freedom. Special thanks to you, my son, for your service in Iraq at FOB Paliwoda. God is with you. Free will is His gift to each of us. Keep fighting. Those who seek death deserve it.

Beautiful and well-spoken comments, Lorie. Much like the woman who wrote them. Excellent post!

Prediction: While the right bashes the left, and the left bashes the right, a big fat nuke is gonna go off right between all of your eyes and you'll spend your last dying breath blaming the other side for your not being able to see the nuke coming.

Good riddens to you all.

Twits.

Mak44

You are not paying attention. Willful?

Islam is a religion. Islamism is an ideology akin to fascism. Even if only 10% of the world's moslems were Islamists, it still means something like ten million Islamists. There were not that many Nazi's in Germany and we know what refusing to take THEM seriously led to.

I just don't understand the bedwetting obsession with Christians by American Leftists.

Let me know when Pissed-off Presbyterians or Maddened Methodists start kidnapping people off the "It's a Small World" ride at Disneyland and videotaping their beheadings while shouting GOD is Great!

Until then, get a f*cking clue, will ya?

Big Mo.. Bush's Where's the exit strateg ? was not so much about the wisdom or lack of it
in Bush's Iraqi policy, but in reply to Clock Maker's comment, about locking up war dissenters,that many prominent Republicans were very quick to dissent from President Clinton's successful and contained war policy in Kosovo (I know you disagree on this) ... But as far as Iraq, goes I think we are under an enormous strategic misperception in the words of Gore Vidal, Bush saying we at war on terror is like saying "we are having a war on dandruff...it's endless and pointless"or less graphically in Bush's own words in the October 11, 2000 debate with AL Gore.
BUSH- "Maybe I'm missing something here. I mean, we're going to have kind of a nation building core from America? Absolutely not. Our military is meant to fight and win war. That's what it's meant to do. And when it gets overextended, morale drops."

And so comes the question:

Has MAK revealed himself to be a anti-religious bigot?

Crickmore

Interestingly, dandruff, while annoying and may cause others to point and snicker, doesn't usually issue fatwas and behead infidels.

Vidal has never gotten over the fact that while he's fawned over as a celeb, he's failed twice with voters. His celebrated "sassiness" is really a much bitter brew.

Posted by: mak44 at July 3, 2006 03:44 PM

DavidB, Astrand, Jainphx, Bithead, Serfer 62 et al

Looks like a lot of Rightie hate here in most of these posts. You hate-patriots really do expose what your American Patriotism is all about, HATE

The clear impression in most of these moronic Pavlovian posts is intolerance & hatred of dissent & dissenters. Any foreigner reading this site would come away w/ the clear impression that the Right is filled w/ pathological hatred of anyone or any idea different based on the swill that this Choir sings.

Just the kind of knee-jerk jingoidtic patriotism ripe for the first tyrant who comes along.

There isn't a one in this sour crowd who wouldn't have been a Tory during the American Revolution. So why the hell do you celebrate? What this day represents and what this Constitution represents, you all, had you been alive in the 18th Century, would have despised because you would have been another George's minions.

Wow, take a day away and things get really batty.

Now mak, take a moment, go back, and read what Lee said without the Rose colored glasses. I was merely calling him on practicing what he was supposedly preaching against. Really, is wishing any kind of injury to someone else anything other then hateful?

Then you melt in to name calling and hateful speech as well. Really, does it serve your point or are you incapable of ignoring the taunts of others and moving on?

The whole patriotism thing is a strange animal for me, actions speak louder then words in that regard, so your actions should support what you say. Many on the left and right have lots of words, but few actions to really support those words.

Kind of like the whole chickenhawk crap. Do you really know me to know whether or not I was ever in the service? No, but I don't wear it on my sleeve as well. I spent 6 years in the early eighties in the U.S. Navy, 4 of which was spent going to interesting places and doing interesting things.

So, don't assume anything about me and don't lump me in with anyone. I may share some of the views held here, but I may share some of yours as well, so I don't fit into one of your convenient little pots. I don't assume much about you, but when you, or anyone else for that matter, devolves into basic talking points from either side, you just pigeon hole yourself.

Most of the liberal/left responders here have at one time or another provided links to support their view. But Lee has never, to my recollection, ever provided any sort of substance to support his rants, and when called on it, he has either ignored the request, or slinked off to another posting to spew more dribble everywhere. If he is what you are defending, the ranks need thinning.

DavidB - Sorry, but your repeated questions aren't worth responding to. If you want to spin that into some sort of denial on my part - spin away. My guess is that you are in fact "LoveAmerica Idiot" or one of the other nonsensical trolls I ignore.

Lee, hilarious response!

My questions are not worth responding to, because you can't you troll. You have never, NEVER, backed a single assertion you have made with fact.

Just dribbling garbage spewed forth, it's not even qamusing any more, just pathetic.

Read above again, if you can, I'm my own person.

But keep guessing, like you do at life and the reality there in.