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Novak finally spills his guts on Plame

Robert Novak has finally revealed what he knew about Valerie Plame before he wrote his infamous column, when he knew it, and (mostly) who told it to him. And if Novak is to be given credibility, here's how it unfolded.

  1. Novak was interviewing an unnamed high-level source (let's call him "Skippy") about various matters. During the course of the investigation, Skippy casually let slip that former Ambassador Joseph Wilson's trip to Africa to investigate the possibility that Iraq was attempting to obtain material for weapons of mass destruction was pushed forward by Wilson's wife, who worked at the CIA.
  2. Later, Novak realized the significance of Skippy's slip when it started being passed around that Wilson's public accounts of his investigation -- that it turned up nothing -- were at odds with reports of his classified report. The notion that Wilson and his wife might have had their own agenda for his trip started looking more and more likely.
  3. Novak called Karl Rove to confirm that it was Wilson's wife who had pushed for Wilson to get the job, and not Vice President Cheney's office, as Wilson was saying. Rove confirmed it.
  4. At this point, Novak consulted Joseph Wilson's entry in Who's Who to determine the wife's name -- up until now not stated by anyone -- and published his infamous column.
  5. Novak then calls the CIA to confirm that Valerie Plame works for them, and the CIA's spokesman confirms it.
  6. Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald has the names of the CIA spokesman, Karl Rove, and Skippy, but declined to pursue any charges against any of them.
  7. To date, the only person charged with anything in this matter is Vice President Cheney's former chief of staff, "Scooter" Libby (who may or may not also be "Skippy" -- nobody is saying who Skippy really is), for perjury. Libby, in essence, is accused about lying about telling the truth about a liar, namely Joseph Wilson.
  8. Joseph Wilson will not get to see Karl Rove, Skippy, or anyone else "frog-marched out of the White House."

To sum up:

  1. The Wilsons arranged for Joseph Wilson to take the trip to Africa on behalf of the CIA for their own reasons. Whether this was to jump-start his career or make a political attack against the Bush administration is unknown.
  2. Wilson himself began politicizing his trip when he started lying about two things: who chose him to go, and what he found.
  3. The exposing of Plame's employment at the CIA was a direct consequence of her and her husband's actions, intended to prove the lies Wilson was telling about who sent him and what he found.
  4. Although he has not publicly stated so, the actions of Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald indicate that he does not believe that the publicity that Plame worked for the CIA violated any laws.
  5. Scooter Libby is once again proof of the old adage that "it isn't the crime, but the coverup." If Libby had simply told the truth about telling the truth about Joe Wilson's lies, he most likely wouldn't be under indictment.


Now, I'm no expert on all the minutiae of the Plame case. But I think this sums it up fairly well.


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Comments (102)

This is a great 'I told you... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

This is a great 'I told you so' or 'we got ya' post. Wonder how many lefties heads exploded and how many reported to their shrink for treatment.

5) Novak then calls the ... (Below threshold)

5) Novak then calls the CIA to confirm that Valerie Plame works for them, and the CIA's spokesman confirms it.

This also shows quite nicely that Plame wasn't covert in any fashion, since the CIA would never, ever "confirm" that publicly.

It'll pay to go over to LGF... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

It'll pay to go over to LGF and read the comments. The exploding head moonbats are totally freaked out. Lying to each other and anyone else that will listen to them. I knew it would be a real comedy when the truth came out.
Joe Wilson's lie that the Vice President sent him to Africa was the first lie he told and like a snowball on a hill it got bigger and picked up more dirt on the way down. Then his lies about what he found in Niger didn't help him any. Kind of hard to tell different people different stories when all of the people know and talk to each other. You'll get caught in the lies every time. LMAO

"Skippy" is thought to be R... (Below threshold)

"Skippy" is thought to be Richard Armitage by most of those deeply familiar with the Plame investigation.

Yup, you're no expert. ... (Below threshold)
Thom:

Yup, you're no expert.

Your sum begins on a false note. I know you'd like to believe that it was a personal trip, but there's nothing like proof of that, and to even infer it from your steps is a long stretch. Someone said it--so it must be true? What about the may who say it's not true. Including the CIA spokesman who Novak today named as his "confirming source"?

Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published. He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/26/AR2005072602069_2.html

And Cirby, don't write dumb things and I won't say you're dumb. CIA and other government officials confirm classified information to journalists on a regualr basis (remember the NSA story that the NYTimes sat on for a year before publishing?) The CIA has confirmed that she was a covert operative. Do facts mean anything to you?

Libby's crime is likely to ... (Below threshold)
bill:

Libby's crime is likely to be he forgot what he said years ago. You try that and see how good your recall is two years out.

My question why is it when the prosecutors prosecutor learned the truth he didn't tell the public and stop the whole sham, instead he just went on merrily lying and pretending until all his moonbat flock blew their heads off. Could have saved many a bad life if he had just fessed up and told the truth early.

Honest truth seeker my a$$.

And Cirby, don't write d... (Below threshold)

And Cirby, don't write dumb things and I won't say you're dumb. And Cirby, don't write dumb things and I won't say you're dumb. CIA and other government officials confirm classified information to journalists on a regualr basis

...but official CIA spokesmen (the description of Harlow) don't, without checking first to see what can be released. Harlow claims to have confirmed her identity, then found out that she was covert (he probably found out that she "had been" covert, but wasn't at that time).

As has been pointed out in many places, Plame was about as "covert" as Natasha Nogoodnik at that time.

There are three kinds of me... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

There are three kinds of men: The ones that
learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have
to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Will Rogers

He must have known a lot of left wingers because the continually 'piss' on the electric fence.

Why is it so common in peop... (Below threshold)
Thom:

Why is it so common in people towing this lien to throw out such comments with no backup? s has been pointed out in many places...

What places, Cirby? Blogs that say what you want to hear? Why are you so quick to completely dismiss something it would seem a true American conservative would hold in high esteem--the CIA? The CIA says she was:

But special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald found that Plame had indeed done "covert work overseas" on counterproliferation matters in the past five years, and the CIA "was making specific efforts to conceal" her identity, according to newly released portions of a judge's opinion. (A CIA spokesman at the time is quoted as saying Plame was "unlikely" to take further trips overseas, though.)

Even given that it may be "unlikely" that she would go overseas again, a covert operative's cover is obviously still something sensitive. Again, from my comment above:

Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used.

This was in 2003. Before this was a story. Before Harlow could be playing one side or another.

You've got to look at facts and think.

"You've got to look at fact... (Below threshold)

"You've got to look at facts and think."

Actually, you have to look at what people say and think, when their "facts" aren't supported by their actions.

The facts say that Plame wasn't covert, except maybe on some piece of paper nobody cared about, and that in the real world, too many people knew she was a formerly-covert CIA operative with a blown cover.

Why in the world would so many people know the name of some analyst who prepared reports that they didn't even read directly? She wasn't that important, she wasn't that connected (except as the wife of a political operative), and she certainly wasn't what any rational person would consider "covert."

All of the comments we see by other folks seem to fall in the same "cover my own ass" category, and are no more to be trusted than Wilson's public lies about what he found on his little junket.

Damn Skippy.... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

Damn Skippy.

First time I've not only NO... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

First time I've not only NOT been annoyed at one of your postings, astigafa, but got me to laugh. Very well said.

J.

Thom...your link confirms t... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Thom...your link confirms that
MSNBC says that someone says that Fitzgerald says (note he is not directly quoted) that an (unnamed) CIA person says that Plame had done covert work overseas in the previous 5 years.

That's a lot of "says".

Of course if Fitzgerald actually BELIEVED that she could have considered "covert" under ANY wild stretch of the term, then he would have proceeded to hang someone.

Didn't happen.

She wasn't.

Well done JayP... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Well done Jay

P

Cirby, "some piece of paper... (Below threshold)
Thom:

Cirby, "some piece of paper nobody cared about"? Some piece of paper at Langley? Ah yeah, screw that.

And what facts support your side? You haven't presented any.

Does it matter to you that someone revealed the identity of a covert operative, regardless of what her status was? That is a crime, and you're supposed to be par of the "Law and Order" party. And what "rational person" gets to decide how covert she is? You? Robert Novak? Does the CIA get a say, or should they just shut up and listen to you?

Did you use the word "junket" a lot before this story? It's one way to find out if you're a stenographer for someone else's thoughts, recognizing when you're language has been transplanted.

did it hurt y as much as it... (Below threshold)

did it hurt y as much as it did me?

JustrandYour misun... (Below threshold)
Thom:

Justrand

Your misunderstanding of the law is not a good platform. Simple covert status isn't enough, it's knowingly outing a covert agent, and the story goes on to say that Fitzgerald didn't feel he could prove that Libby knew.

And the judge's opinion is public opinion. Do I have to do all the work here?

"And what 'rational person'... (Below threshold)

"And what 'rational person' gets to decide how covert she is?"

If so many indirectly-connected people knew who she was and what she did, how in the hell can you call that "covert?"

Justrand understands the la... (Below threshold)
Totally Matt:

Justrand understands the law! Justrand understands that the law is quaint, and needs to be ignored when there are villains whose faces need a good shootin'.

I have to agree with Thom, cirby, that...

"The facts say that Plame wasn't covert, except maybe on some piece of paper nobody cared about, and that in the real world, too many people knew she was a formerly-covert CIA operative with a blown cover."

...isn't good enough. "Pieces of paper" oftentimes have legal relevance independent of what people think about them. See: Bush Jr. v. Constitution of United States of America

So Matt, is that why all of... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

So Matt, is that why all of those people are going to jail over Plamegate?

And if it is still bad to p... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

And if it is still bad to publish the fact that Plame was Mrs. Wilson, despite the fact that anyone who cared knew, why isn't it bad that the NY Times published the details about terrorist finance monitoring?

The <a href="http://frankwa... (Below threshold)
George:

The reward is still out for the first person who can name one thing, anything, Joseph Wilson found on his 2002 trip to Niger that proved "false" President Bush's 2003 State of the Union statement, "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

So Thom, why hasn't Novak b... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

So Thom, why hasn't Novak been indicted?

Everything you're throwing out there indicates that he should have, but Fitz didn't do it.

Hmmm, let's see: According ... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Hmmm, let's see: According to Joe Wilson's Senate Intelligence Commitee report, an Iraqi delgation traveled to Niger in 1999 and Niger officials believed they were there seeking uranium. So that qualifies as "recently sought". Whether the quantities were "significant" or not is, of course, a largely moot point. The point being that Iraq was seeking them period.

Second, it also indicates what little credence the Bush Administration gave to Wilson's report, which had long since been filed after his return in early 2002, and instead chose to go with British intel's report. Maybe Joe had too much tea in Niger, who knows.

Can I have my $5 now?

ZZZZZZZZFFZZZZZZZZhafpejfw ... (Below threshold)

ZZZZZZZZFFZZZZZZZZhafpejfw k

Sorry, fell asleep at the keyboard.

This whole Plame afair was "sound and fury, signifying nothing."

ANd it was definitely nothing especially compared to what the New York Slimes has pulled in recent months.

I have always preferred Jif... (Below threshold)

I have always preferred Jif to Skippy (or Peter Pan) anyways.

Lets compare damage done to US security:

Plame "leak" vs SWIFT leak.

No need for me to post any argument here, as most readers have decided long ago and have no interest in reading the other side's arguments. However, the marginalization of two arrogant and self-serving politically manipulative intelligence officers vs the sabotage of an effective intelligence tool seems hardly worth comparison EXCEPT for the level of vitriol spewed by the NYT and certain Kosa Nostra bloggers against the former leak and minimalizing the latter.

The whole problem with the ... (Below threshold)
millco88:

The whole problem with the theory that Plame was outed as "punishment" to Wilson is that it had precisely the opposite effect. Wilson was just some former diplomat looking for a gig before he was "punished". Now he's an icon in some quarters with a book deal and probably a lucrative speaker circuit.

IOW, how exactly was outing Plame supposed to hurt Wilson?? That's always been the part of the story that made no sense. Remember, in order to believe the malicious intent approach, the leakers had to both know Plame's status and leak it in an unauthorized manner. Then we have to believe that said leakers also miscalculated on the impact of such a leak even after going to such lengths to have it disclosed. So how does the knowledge that Wilson's wife was a covert agent at some point in her life HURT Wilson in any way? Doesn't it lend a bit more credibility to his story in Niger (wife works on WMDs at CIA, so Wilson knows yellowcake or something along those lines), at least until you find out that Plame had something to do with him getting the Niger gig??

This topic has been beaten to death at Tom Maguire's place, but there's always usually a holdout who still believes Wilson was somehow harmed by the disclosure. How??

Thom --- "I want my Fitzmas... (Below threshold)
Bill M:

Thom --- "I want my Fitzmas and I want it NOW!"

"And what facts support you... (Below threshold)
kirktoe:

"And what facts support your side? You haven't presented any."

Really?? So Robert Novak's own words aren't facts? No one indicted for outing Plame isn't a fact that supports our side? You are delusional my friend.

"Does it matter to you that someone revealed the identity of a covert operative, regardless of what her status was?"

I suggest you go back and read the transcript of Fitzgerald's press conference last October when he said that he did not know whether Plame was a covert agent or not when her name was revealed. So the FACT is that even the Prosecutor, with the knowledge of all the testimony before him, could not determine this. At that point this case was over because there was no crime regarding the original issue. That is the FACT.

So Joe Wilson frisched hims... (Below threshold)
Tony:

So Joe Wilson frisched himself : )

Man that verb couldn't have been created at a better time...

Wait, the <a href="http://w... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Wait, the Keatons' idiot neighbor told Novak that Plame was CIA?

It is troubling that all th... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

It is troubling that all the Thoms of the world think nothing of a CIA wife sending her hubby on a trip he was ill-qualified for (ref. what happened later, including op-eds in NYT), and apparently was pushing her own agenda that there were no WMD to be found anywhere near Iraq.

Isn't it more than a little interesting that her vested interest was in proving her theory of no WMD correct? And having her hubby go prove it was a safe bet, eh?

Losing the point with all this talk of her "status" as a field agent (clearly not--correctly stated above by admission of Fitz) is short-sighted, and really, indicative of the political motivations of those obsessed with the topic.

Most clear-thinkers know what the "game" was with Mr. and Mrs. Plame.

Columnist Robert Novak reve... (Below threshold)
Raymond Benson:

Columnist Robert Novak revealed that he discovered Valerie Plame's identity from her husband's -- Joe Wilson's -- entry in "Who's Who in American," in which he mentions her position with the CIA.

Does this not mean that Wilson should be charged
with the crime of exposing a covert agent?

Jay, small note. U... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Jay, small note.

Unless I'm off base, I think your 4 and 5 are sorta a bit out of order. You wrote:

---
4) At this point, Novak consulted Joseph Wilson's entry in Who's Who to determine the wife's name -- up until now not stated by anyone -- and published his infamous column.

5) Novak then calls the CIA to confirm that Valerie Plame works for them, and the CIA's spokesman confirms it.
---

Should be soemthing like:

4) At this point, Novak consulted Joseph Wilson's entry in Who's Who to determine the wife's name -- up until now not stated by anyone.

5) Novak then calls the CIA to confirm that Valerie Plame works for them, and the CIA's spokesman confirms it.


5a) Novak publishes his infamous column.

--

same idea just a typo kinda thing.

You guys are too funny....W... (Below threshold)
You parasites:

You guys are too funny....Who is the real author of this blog??? Is that you Rovey???? Joe Wilson never lied so get your facts straight. The VP office did ask to have someone investigate the claim however Dick never asked for Wilson directly. Mrs Plame Wilson new the story of the :Yellow cake" from Niger was false which was proven without a shadow of a doubt that the claim was in fact false. Used to get us in an illegal war of agrresion!

I confess. I made up the wh... (Below threshold)
Joe blow Wilson:

I confess. I made up the whole covert agent powder cake masquerade.. I hate Bush period! And I am a liar! signed under no duress..
JoeJoe Wilson

Wilson was born with a lie ... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Wilson was born with a lie in his mouth. He went to Niger because his wife, a clerk at the CIA, pushed his name as an expert on Africa. He returned and filed a classified report and immediately went to the traitorous NYT and wrote an article that was directly opposite his classified report. He then ran around telling everyone foolish enough to listen that the VP sent him to Niger. Then it got ugly when the VP ask who the liar was that was running around lying about him sending slow Joe to Niger. That's when it was discovered that a clerk at the CIA was married to slow Joe and her name came out since slow joe is such a snob he paid to publish his name and Plame's in the joke book 'Who's Who'. Took a while to explain this but I don't want 'you parasites' the troll to misunderstand. I'm assuming again that 'you parasites, can read a simple explamation since he evidently doesn't understand Novak's article, or confession, whatever it is.

"Used to get us in an il... (Below threshold)
Your own parasitic complex:

"Used to get us in an illegal war of agression"
What were the other wars thruout history Einstein? Legal wars of non aggression?

If Ms Plame knew the story of "yellow cake" from Niger was false? beyond a shadow of doubt? why pray tell did She not leak it to Dan Blather or the NySlimes?

Shouldn't we take up money ... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Shouldn't we take up money for flowers for the likes of old "pucker puss" (lee lee), "makie" and all his buddies? Don't know when the funerals will be held. Bless their misguided soles.

The funerals will be held s... (Below threshold)
virgo1:

The funerals will be held shortly after the next election cycle..As for flowers, I think Daisie's will suffice.

Help me understand here. W... (Below threshold)

Help me understand here. What lies about Africa are we reffering to? I don't recall "other than right wing MSM talking points" anyone being able to prove that what Wilson reported about his trip to Africa was untrue. Who Wilson claims sent him to Africa is a proven lie, the report from Africa, however still remains facutal. We were lied into a costly war.

Wow...both sides have annoy... (Below threshold)
Meghan:

Wow...both sides have annoyed me to the point of apathy. Why does EVERYTHING have to be a conservatives vs. liberals fight?

And come on...New York Slimes? Are we still in sixth grade?

Help me understand here.... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Help me understand here. What lies about Africa are we reffering to? I don't recall "other than right wing MSM talking points" anyone being able to prove that what Wilson reported about his trip to Africa was untrue.

Consider your bubble burst. Twice/

MeghanIm not in th... (Below threshold)
virgo1:

Meghan

Im not in the 6th grade, but I guess I should be more sypathetic to the great has been history of the NYTs? I will call them the New York liberal Chronicals from now on! Thank You.

With the hallelujah choir h... (Below threshold)
Biff Spaceman:

With the hallelujah choir here making every excuse to avoid admitting that the GOP has again traded American secrets to foreign powers for domestic political gain, why would there be any need for a KGB or an Al Qaeda?
With naifs and liars like wangbang and crapiron believing every official story down the pike, Bush can just sell the whole damn country to the Red Chinese like he gave up that spy plane. Every Republican president since Nixon has committed treason by entreating with foreign powers to subvert the will of the American people and the duly elected president, and you obsequious little Heathers eat it up. Kissinger sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks, Bush under Reagan traded arms for hostages and oil price increases, Bush himself traded drugs for arms for the nun-raping Contras while his children and cronies robbed America's Savings and Loans and crashed our economy, selling us out to the Reds. Bush II stopped terrorism by giving Al Qaeda EVERYTHING THEY ASKED FOR on a plate-removing US troops from Saudi Arabia and not investigating the Kobar bombings too closely, protecting Bin Laden interests in the US and abroad.
You don't appreciate what we have lost as a nation in terms of nuclear proliferation human intelligence and don't understand the first thing about the spy business, No Official Cover agents, or the political agenda of the Bush Crime Family and its allies. You have just manufactured or accepted a story you can relate to your own pathetic and corrupt little lives because you envy people who have worked to do something that matters to the world.
You identify with baby Bush because he is a sadistic, mean failure of a man, who failed at every job his father got him including President of the United States. Cheney is an evil little man but he at least used his five deferments to kiss ass and get ahead.
You wish you had the guts to be more than you are-pudgy little would-be tyrants. You are afraid to be free men and so you are lackeys and followers of the loud talking con men of the right. You are thinking and acting like a pack of high school girls.
Joe Wilson and his wife are American heroes who have sacrificed for this country and risked their lives. A trip to Niger is not a picnic and even Bush I has consistently praised Wilson and condemned the leakers as traitors. The conservative movement and its cheerleaders are eunuchs and yes men with no balls or ability beyond doing what they are told like good little Germans.

Shouldn't we take up mon... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

Shouldn't we take up money for flowers for the likes of old "pucker puss" (lee lee), "makie" and all his buddies?

Their absence on this thread speaks for itself.

They are either trying to put the shattered pieces of their skulls back together or -- mommy cut off their internet access early tonight.

Plus, I heard that Rove reset the clocks on the moonbat moonbeam satellites tonight so it may be a few hours before before they reboot.

What were the other wars... (Below threshold)
Son Of The Godfather:

What were the other wars thruout history Einstein? Legal wars of non aggression?

Holy crap, that was funny! :)

And Biff,Great use... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

And Biff,

Great use of the random comment generator.

I'm guessing that english is not your first language.

Otherwise, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Joe Wilson and his wife are American heroes who have sacrificed for this country and risked their lives.

I personally know thousands of young men and women who have risked and sacrificed much more than those two could ever imagine. You insult them all with your foolishness.

If Wilson or Plame are heroes, Benedict Arnold will be receiving his Medal of Honor any minute now.

Yup, it's pretty dangerous flitting between all of those NY and DC social events. Gotta watch out for those Vanity Fair photogs.

Man its a good thing there ... (Below threshold)
the dave:

Man its a good thing there are about to be arrests for this and a lot more. These criminals in govt have been getting away with things through intimidation and threats, but the house of cards is about to fall.

Just look at what they're doing. KLay got assasinated because he was threatening to expose it all if they didnt get him off the hook.

There's so much more, but I'll let you find out publicly, soon.

And remember, it doesnt matter what anybody believes, it only matters what is true. And the truth is not hard to see when you look at the facts and not the propaganda. Fasten your seat belts............

the dave,Do they e... (Below threshold)
mesablue:

the dave,

Do they even let you have sporks where you are currently "residing"?

I had to re-read your comment a couple of times to believe that you could possibly believe what you posted. Kept trying to find the sarcasm -- but. it. ain't. there.

You have to be joking.

You win.

Where do I send the award for most insane poster of the week?

I've got a box of circa 1972 Froot Loops with your name on it -- just let me know if they'll allow me to ship it to you.

One interesting sidelight t... (Below threshold)
Big Bang Hunter:

One interesting sidelight that falls out of Novaks "confession", that is aside from the "not indictment thats due any day now against Rove", or the howler that after countless words of pure wild speculation by the Left it turns out Joey "outed" his wife himself, concerns Harlow "confirming Plames employement" with the agency. CIA policy is strickly to deny, not confirm, in no way to comment on any sort of agency details. So either Plame was at that point simply a clerk, or Harlow intentionally broke policy, which in itself may or may not be legal. What it might be is some support for the "anti-Buah" cabal, opering within the agency idea. An attempt to deflect from their duplicity in getting caught falt footed on 9/11 and the entire al Qaeda mess, by floating the "Bush is the bad guy" rumor implying the "leaks" came from the White house. Nice ploy if true. Kill two birds with one stone. Of course the Liberal media laps it up. Problem is the 9/11 commision goes and pee's in the cornflakes by exposing old Joey's report, catching him in lies from his NYT article, and all hell breaks loose.

- Fitz has a problem now even worse than before. Now its clear he knew all this for quite awhile, and yet said nothing. Aside from that if there was no leak from the admin., then its doubtful Libby will end up cinvicted. It would be hard to get a conviction for "lying" about a lie. Well unless your name is Martha Stewart I suppose.

Even more difficult for Fitz to keep Libby from eventually getting some people on the stand, maybe even Wilson himself, in which case the wheels of this Liberal scam would come fkying off in all directions, and knowing Wilson I'd hate to have to depend on his br5and of character and motor mouth tendencies to keep the lies going if he thought he was facing prison time.

- Should be some interesting times ahead.

Did people change their nam... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf:

Did people change their names posting on here? Moonbats coming out of the woodwork. Covert agents do not drive to work every working day to Langley in Jag convertables. Niger is not all of Africa, what other trade could exist between Saddam and Niger except uranium? Does the left truely believe that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the accepted truth? Seems to be so. I would pay per view to watch the Liar Joe Wilson cross examined on the witness stand.

[email protected] doesn't read the pap... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

[email protected] doesn't read the papers; or worse, reads the NYTimes. The Niger reference Bush made was correct--ask anyone at MI5 in Great Britain. They stand by the story. You don't think Rove is controlling them, too, do you?

I love seeing the libs' heads explode on this thread. You can almost see the smoke coming out of the ears, face turning red, fingers tapping on the keyboard furiously, and then, the only response: highly irrational, nonfactual rant. But rant is so much more satisfying than getting the facts right, isn't it?

Shhh. Don't tell Thom that... (Below threshold)

Shhh. Don't tell Thom that the statute says that in order to be indicted and convicted for outing an agent, one has do know that the agent was indeed covert and has to do it with intent. None of that seems to be the case here and Fitzgerald agrees with me.

It's been explained simply and at length here and some people still just don't get it. Why aren't these people in jail? Because none of them fit the criteria above. There is nothing to indicate that anyone knew Plame was enjoying covert status.

Golly! Joe and Valerie are travelling across country giving speeches and writing books. In the meantime we have a bunch of moontarts screeching about Valerie's imminent danger and the treasonous people who "outed" her. All the while ignoring that Saddam's cronies actually were in Niger with the intent to procure uranium. Joe lied - get used to it. They weren't there to secure a lucrative deal on cow peas. And to top it all off, Niger isn't the only place they went.

Damnit Oyster!If y... (Below threshold)
Son Of The Godfather:

Damnit Oyster!

If you're gonna go off and get all "factual" on these libtards, they'll find a new "issue", and we won't be able to play with 'em on THIS issue anymore!

Now they're liable to jump on the "hey man, it's still a "fast", even though it's a rotating fast... that we can have coffee... and ice cream... and smoothies on" bandwagon.

What have you done? ;)

Mitchell,I was only ... (Below threshold)

Mitchell,
I was only asking what factual errors did Joe Wilson make in his report from Niger.
As of yet no one on this board or any other I visit, has been able to explain what was in Joe Wilson's report that was incorrect. All I'm asking for are the facts and then I'll let the chips fall where they may. I do acknowledge that Mr. Wilson claimed that the Vice Pres. office sent him to Africa when in fact his wife was the main instigator, but that does not change the facts of his report. The MI5 has walked away from there original position on this years ago. Oh, and by the way, I'm about as far from being a lib as you can get. Just because I like to question the government and refuse to swallow its propaganda may make you question my conservative credentials, I can sleep well knowing I still hold on to a healthy dose of sceptitisium. As far as not reading the papers or reading the NYTs, neither one could be farther from the truth. I've worked in a "fair and balanced" TV newsroom for years.

I'll stick to my original a... (Below threshold)
Thim:

I'll stick to my original assertion - if Novak isn't going to tell us everything he knows, and who Skippy really is, I wish he'd just STFU. Either tell us or go away. Stop jerking us all around already.

[email protected]:"the report... (Below threshold)

[email protected]:

"the report from Africa, however still remains facutal."

Well, yeah, it does.

You see, Wilson went to Niger, where he found out that there was a high-level Iraqi trade delegation looking into making a large trade deal with Niger. Considering that the two major exports from that country are livestock and uranium, that Iraq had plenty of livestock, and that one of the major people on the Iraqi delegation was a former bigwig in the Iraqi nuclear program, Wilson's public denial of what he found is sorta odd.


Is just me or does anyone e... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Is just me or does anyone else see some "NEW" poster here? Hhmmmm.

cirby,First off, tha... (Below threshold)

cirby,
First off, thanks for the reply without the tossing of insults. That is a refreshing change from what I usually get when I question the official conservative view point.
I agree that Iraq would have loved to get its hands on the Niger yellow-cake uranium, that is not in dispute. What I'm getting at is, there are no factual errors in Joe Wilson's report. The assertion used by this administration that Iraq was seeking to buy uranium from Niger was based on a known forged document the President used to build his case to go to war with Iraq. All Mr. Wilson did was to "spill the beans" on the forgery. Again, no factual errors were in the Niger report. For some to claim that the British stand by there earlier report is also false. This is from page 124 of the Butler report:

"Based on through analysis, the IAEA has concluded, with the concurrence of outside experts, that these documents, which formed the basis for the reports of recent uranium transactions between Iraq and Niger, are in fact not authentic. We have therefore concluded that these specific allegations are unfounded."

This is my faorite part of ... (Below threshold)
Thom:

This is my faorite part of Novak's statement:

I have revealed Rove's name because his attorney has divulged the substance of our conversation, though in a form different from my recollection. I have revealed Harlow's name because he has publicly disclosed his version of our conversation, which also differs from my recollection.

So Fitzgerald is sitting there with Novak's testimony saying one thing, and Rove's and Harlow's saying something else entirely. And one takes from this that this is "over"?

And Cirby, who are you talking about? All these people who knew Plame's identity? Name one.

And your arguments that "Nobody's been indicted--so there's no crime!" is too ridiculous. It's equivalent to having a body full of gunshots and saying, "Well, nobody's been indicted--so there's no crime!"

And kirktoe, I did go back to the October, 2005 pressconference. Here's what Fitzgerald said:

Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community. Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life. The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well-known, for her protection or for the benefit of all us. It's important that a CIA officer's identity be protected, that it be protected not just for the officer, but for the nation's security. Valerie Wilson's cover was blown in July 2003. The first sign of that cover being blown was when Mr. Novak published a column on July 14th, 2003.

"What I'm getting at is, th... (Below threshold)

"What I'm getting at is, there are no factual errors in Joe Wilson's report. "

Yes, his report.

The one that admitted that Iraqi negotiators were looking into buying yellowcake.

"The assertion used by this administration that Iraq was seeking to buy uranium from Niger was based on a known forged document the President used to build his case to go to war with Iraq."

The forged document was a very different case, and supposedly said that Iraq had already bought the yellowcake that Wilson found they were trying to buy. The CIA and other government analyses referred to this document as "suspect," and it certainly wasn't the basis for Wilson's report.

"Specific allegations" are very different from what really happened, which was an Iraqi trade delegation going to Niger to look into buying uranium, Joe Wilson finding that out and reporting it in his official report, and then Joe Wilson lying about what he reported when he wrote those op-ed pieces for the papers as a partisan political operative.

To sum up: the letter you refer to was probably sold to the Italians for some quick cash, Joe Wilson didn't find any actual uranium sales, and he did find that the Iraqis were proabably trying to buy uranium (but were stopped by local officials and the fear that they could get caught breaking sanctions).

As a footnote, most of the top guys in Iraq's nuclear program were still employed by the Iraqis, in their old offices and facilities... waiting for what?

"And Cirby, who are you tal... (Below threshold)

"And Cirby, who are you talking about? All these people who knew Plame's identity? Name one."

David Corn, who actually mentioned her "covert" status before Novak, with much more detail, and who probably got his info from Wilson.

Not to mention, of course, the KGB (from the Ames affair) and Cuban intelligence (from a CIA screwup that basically handed her ID to the Cubans).

The really funny thiing is that people pretend this leak was supposed to somehow "damage" Plame in some fashion by revealing her identity, but she was already public, due to her daily commute to her job at the CIA. They do not have covert agents walking in and out of the front door. Her job was "classified" (which means she couldn't tell people what she did) but the fact that she worked for the agency wasn't a secret at all.

Cirby,It looks like ... (Below threshold)

Cirby,
It looks like you and I agree. There was no way that Iraq did, or was going to be able to, buy yellow-cake uranium from Niger. Yet, President Bush went ahead and used this false claim in his state of the union address anyway. So to get back at Joe for exposing the truth, someone from inside the administration tried to harm the Wilson's by outing Valerie. Why? Let's also not forget it was the CIA that asked the Justice Department to investigation the outing of one of its covert agents.

As usual, Cirby, no links, ... (Below threshold)
Thom:

As usual, Cirby, no links, we're just supposed to trust whatever you say.

Corn's article came out two days after Novaks.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=823

You other nonsense about the KGB and Cuban intelligence--do you work for them?

Your following comment relies on your ridiculous assumptions with no evidence, so merits no response.

Bush can just sell the w... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Bush can just sell the whole damn country to the Red Chinese like he gave up that spy plane.

WHICH President was nailed for taking campaign contributions from the Chinese and had all of the witnesses suddenly run to China when they were subpoenaed?

Hint: Not Bush.

Every Republican president since Nixon has committed treason by entreating with foreign powers to subvert the will of the American people and the duly elected president, and you obsequious little Heathers eat it up.

But Democrats? Nope. They've never done that. I mean, yeah, Clinton tried to get US troops placed under direct UN control and all...

Kissinger sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks

This is where "proof" would go.

Bush under Reagan traded arms for hostages and oil price increases

Again, "proof" would be wise to include here.

Bush himself traded drugs for arms for the nun-raping Contras while his children and cronies robbed America's Savings and Loans and crashed our economy

Wow, it's funny that Clinton's best friends robbed an S & L blind and his wife "represented" the gov't in negotiations to basically giveaway all of the debt to the taxpayers, huh?

Bush II stopped terrorism by giving Al Qaeda EVERYTHING THEY ASKED FOR on a plate-removing US troops from Saudi Arabia and not investigating the Kobar bombings too closely, protecting Bin Laden interests in the US and abroad.

Khobar occurred in 1995.

Bush wasn't in office in 1995.

SOMEBODY else was, though. And HIS FBI director said HE refused to push for investigations to avoid causing gas prices to go up.

You don't appreciate what we have lost as a nation in terms of nuclear proliferation human intelligence and don't understand the first thing about the spy business, No Official Cover agents, or the political agenda of the Bush Crime Family and its allies.

Again, Plame worked AT LANGLEY.

You can't put somebody into ANY type of undercover work when THEY WORK AT LANGLEY.

Foreign intel officers can pretty easily figure out that the woman who drives into Langley every single day --- well, she MIGHT just work for the CIA.

You identify with baby Bush because he is a sadistic, mean failure of a man, who failed at every job his father got him including President of the United States.

He's "sadistic"? Are you sure you know what "sadistic" means?

Joe Wilson and his wife are American heroes who have sacrificed for this country and risked their lives.

Yes. A diplomat who names his wife in his "Who's Who" listing --- yeah, no problem with THAT. I'm sure NO foreign intel service can figure out who she is --- since, you know, Bob Novak did it and all.

A trip to Niger is not a picnic and even Bush I has consistently praised Wilson and condemned the leakers as traitors.

Specifically referring to Agee and guys like that. Nice try, though.

Hey, Washington praised Benedict Arnold immensely for years. He was one of his best military officers.

I bet his opinion of him changed, though, after his actions and all...

I was only asking what factual errors did Joe Wilson make in his report from Niger.

Actually, none.

It's just odd that his op-ed and his report from the CIA --- didn't remotely correspond.

The MI5 has walked away from there original position on this years ago.

Might want to check out the Butler Report.

And the 9/11 Commission Report.

The assertion used by this administration that Iraq was seeking to buy uranium from Niger was based on a known forged document the President used to build his case to go to war with Iraq. All Mr. Wilson did was to "spill the beans" on the forgery.

Except Wilson had never seen the documents as they were not in anybody's possession at the time. That happened about a year later. The CIA most assuredly did NOT have them in their possession when Wilson went to Niger.

Wilson claimed he did NOT go on behalf of the CIA (http://next.epic-usa.org/epicdev2/_media/2003forumaudio/28-lecture-wilson-32.mp3) which is a pretty clear lie.

Wilson stated he briefed the administration the documents were forged. Since he never even saw them, that is a lie.

Wilson admitted as much in Senate Intel Committee testimony.
-=Mike

[email protected]:1) Wilson's... (Below threshold)

[email protected]:

1) Wilson's REPORT was accurate -- Iraq DID try to buy yellowcake from Niger.
2) Wilso's REPORT was also accurate -- the effort failed.

The problems with Wilson are simple: His REPORT was classified, and in the meantime he published an op-ed piece in the New York Times that flatly contradicted his report, and added whole new lies (who sent him, etc.) to the mess. What the Bush administration was trying to do was to discredit him (justly) as a liar without violating the secrecy of his report.

In short:
Wilson writes in report X, Y, Z.
Government verifies much of X, Y, and Z through other sources.
Wilson writes op-ed for NYT saying X, Y, and Z never happened.
Bush administration, blindsided, tries to fight back against these damaging lies.
Wilson whines about frog-marching.

J.

[email protected]: you aren't reading... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

[email protected]: you aren't reading Cirby carefully. You got it wrong on yellow cake. Read the 9/11 commission report re Wilson's credibility problems. Do you think the commission works for Bush?

The forged Niger document issue is completely different from the issue over what Bush said in his speech. This tells me you are not well-informed, or haven't really thought this through.

Thom, you continue to miss the point. Are you comfortable with a Republican CIA analyst sending her Husband, with no experience in WMD issues, to investigate whether there were uranium for purchase by Iraq? And then saying that there were purchases/attempted purchases of uranium?

Then, are you willing to protect her status when the Hubby writes an Op-ed in the Washington Times attacking a Kerry or, heaven forbid, Dean administration over their assertion that there was no uranium sought by Iraq?

And then, hiding behind her "status" at CIA?

You really like those facts? Now, does that not make it a little clearer for you, if you are able to understand such things?

"[email protected]":No, we do... (Below threshold)

"[email protected]":

No, we don't agree. You took everything I wrote and pretended that it said the opposite of what I showed you.

You used the completely silly "Bush lied" idea, when what he said in the State of the Union agreed very well with what I said above (and what Joseph Wilson reported in his real report).

(I think I figured out where "Lee" is...)

[email protected],What's the ... (Below threshold)
millco88:

[email protected],

What's the false claim in the SOTU?? Didn't Bush say that Iraq was seeking to buy yellowcake from Africa?? Isn't that exactly what they were TRYING to do?? Where's the false claim??

Given all the connect the dots related criticism of the CIA and the Administration after 9/11, didn't it make sense to make some sort of assumption that Niger wasn't the only place Iraq was seeking nuclear material, but just one of many??

You can argue what the proper next step should have been, but when a guy like Saddam is looking to get nuclear weapons, you need to do "something" to stop him. If you want to know why, Iran and North Korea are pretty good current examples.

cirby, Mitchell, Jay Tea</p... (Below threshold)

cirby, Mitchell, Jay Tea

If it was known that Iraq tried and failed at purchasing uranium before the 2003 SOTU address, then why wasn't it deleted from the speech?
Mitchell, you make a great point by turning the tables and having a Liberal administration doing what you just said a conservative administration did. Either way you look at it two wrongs don't make a right. Outing someone's CIA wife for revenge, no matter how much you disagree with their public statements is no reason to put our nation at risk. Again, it was the CIA that asked for this investigation not some Democratic institution trying to discredit an unpopular President. I wish you would use this critical thinking logic and apply it to other areas of Bush policy. As for the Wilsons all I can say is, if you play with fire your going to get burned. But I see no reason what so ever to purposely go to the press and have stories published concerning our government secrets, however poorly they were being kept. This holds true for the NYT's Swift program disclosures, as well as administration insiders. I see no difference. I've enjoyed our give and take here today and feel I may have even learned something. Thanks

"If it was known that Iraq ... (Below threshold)

"If it was known that Iraq tried and failed at purchasing uranium before the 2003 SOTU address, then why wasn't it deleted from the speech?"

His actual words from the SOTU:

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Why should he delete something that was true? That all of the intelligence services (ours and others) were telling him, and which was borne out by the actual report of Joseph Wilson (not the op-ed he wrote for the Times)? "Sought" is the past tense of "seek," by the way, since you can't seem to comprehend what it means.

"Outing someone's CIA wife for revenge, no matter how much you disagree with their public statements is no reason to put our nation at risk."

...and if that had happened, you could have some glimmer of a point. But since Novak said, very clearly, that the guy who first let the connection slip did it by accident, and didn't mention her by name, you're grasping at a straw that never existed.

Even if it were true, how in the hell could that be a real punishment for Wilson lying about Niger? A more direct move would have been to fire or demote her for suggesting that such a partisan political hack would do a competent job and keep his mouth shut, not to mention the nepotism angle.


If it was known that Ira... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

If it was known that Iraq tried and failed at purchasing uranium before the 2003 SOTU address, then why wasn't it deleted from the speech?

"Failing to purchase" and "attempting to acquire" are not actually mutually exclusive terms. If I want to buy a car but can't afford a convertible, then my failure to buy a car that day does not mean I'm not trying to do so.

way you look at it two wrongs don't make a right. Outing someone's CIA wife for revenge, no matter how much you disagree with their public statements is no reason to put our nation at risk.

Except it wasn't for "revenge". Nobody can rationally say that at this point. It was done solely to explain WHY Wilson, who seems horribly unqualified to go, was sent to Niger.

Wilson claimed it was for the GOVERNMENT, not the CIA.

It was revealed that it WAS for the CIA and his wife, in particular, pimped him for it.

It wasn't an attempt to "punish" a soul. It was not even an intentional slip. It was done to simply explain why that guy was sent when he probably wasn't qualified to do it.

Again, it was the CIA that asked for this investigation not some Democratic institution trying to discredit an unpopular President.

The CIA has actually had an unspoken war with Bush for a long, long time.
-=Mike

The most glaring fact is th... (Below threshold)
DOUG BOOK:

The most glaring fact is that political hack Fitzgerald attacked, harrassed and intimidated absolutely innocent people for years, for no other reason than to see himself on TV, feed his obviously gigantic ego and do damage to the hated White House. This is the clown who should be investigated and brought up on charges of prosecutorial malfeasance. The leftist practice of prosecuting conservatives simply because they are conservative must be brought to an end and there is no better place to start.

On the points I find of int... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

On the points I find of interest.

-------------------------------------------------

To sum up:

1. The Wilsons arranged for Joseph Wilson to take the trip to Africa on behalf of the CIA for their own reasons. Whether this was to jump-start his career or make a political attack against the Bush administration is unknown.

2. Wilson himself began politicizing his trip when he started lying about two things: who chose him to go, and what he found.

3. The exposing of Plame's employment at the CIA was a direct consequence of her and her husband's actions, intended to prove the lies Wilson was telling about who sent him and what he found.

...

Now, I'm no expert on all the minutiae of the Plame case. But I think this sums it up fairly well.

--------------------------------------------------

To sum up your summing up. Items 4 and 5 are simply your interpretation. Since they are apparencly based on items 1, 2, and 3, and those items are based on error, then your conclusions are suspect.

Specifically. Item 1:

What reasons of their own the Wilsons might have for Joe going to Niger are hard to fathom from your writings. To jump start his career? If that was it why didn't he go public until a year and a half later? He went in Feb 02, he didn't speak about it publically until July 6, 03. How does he profit from that?

Did he intend to damage the Whitehouse's position? How? The Administration was not vulnerable on that issue in any way, shape or form. The issue was not publically known, and the Whitehouse did not have a position on it. That was one of the few things Cheney did right. He asked a question about it, to get facts before taking a position. Bush did not make his statement about the British reports until 11 months after Wilson's trip. Do you claim Wilson was so politically astute he predicted Bush would run with that 11 months after he said it was not good intel? If so,
Joe Wilson is so bright he should be secretary of state, instead of Condi Rice. If not, then there was no such motive even possible. BTW, Wilson's trip and report provided protection for the Bush administration, not damage, had they chosen to use it.

As to point two. On July 6, 2003 the NYT published an op-ed by Joe Wilson, in which he said the *CIA* sent him to Niger. He correctly stated that Dick Cheney asked a question of the CIA that eventually led to his trip, but he did *NOT* say Cheney sent him. Further, in later interviews he made it absolutely clear he believed Cheney did not know he went.

I have looked for any journalist who said, before that op-ed was published, that Wilson claimed Cheney sent him. I have not yet found one. The earliest I have found a journalist saying that was on July 6, after the op-ed was out, when Dana Bash stood outside the Whitehouse, after an administration briefing, and made that claim. Every single reporter I have found who said Wilson made such a claim was after July 6, 2003. At that time Wilson had made his statement clearly, and in print. Any error after that time is on the reporter, not Wilson.

So, do you have any reporter saying Wilson claimed Cheney ordered, or even requested, Wilson to go to Niger? If not, then please so state.

As to point 3, if you can't back up points 1 and 2, then point 3 falls by default.

I await your evidence to back up the accusations against Wilson.

bob klahn

Attn [email protected] (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

Attn Mitchell

[email protected]: you aren't reading Cirby carefully. You got it wrong on yellow cake. Read the 9/11 commission report re Wilson's credibility problems. Do you think the commission works for Bush?

AAMOF... YES!

The forged Niger document issue is completely different from the issue over what Bush said in his speech. This tells me you are not well-informed, or haven't really thought this through.

Not it is not completely different. Both the State Dept and Bush's then press secretary, Ari Fleischer, said it was the Niger report that was the source for Bush's comments.

"Did he intend to damage th... (Below threshold)

"Did he intend to damage the Whitehouse's position? How? "

Well, for starters, there's the whole "reported one thing in his official report, and turned around and lied about it in his New York Times op-ed" thing.

The facts say that Plame wa... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

The facts say that Plame wasn't covert, except maybe on some piece of paper nobody cared about, and that in the real world, too many people knew she was a formerly-covert CIA operative with a blown cover.

That piece of paper that nobody cares about is enough to make it illegal to reveal her identity.

And put some names on the people who knew she was a formerly covert CIA operative, and let them come forward and be questioned on it.

He neighbors didn't know it. Joe's family didn't know it. It was covert.

The facts say that Plame wa... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

The facts say that Plame wasn't covert, except maybe on some piece of paper nobody cared about, and that in the real world, too many people knew she was a formerly-covert CIA operative with a blown cover.

That piece of paper that nobody cares about is enough to make it illegal to reveal her identity.

And put some names on the people who knew she was a formerly covert CIA operative, and let them come forward and be questioned on it.

He neighbors didn't know it. Joe's family didn't know it. It was covert.

Uh... Cirby...... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:


Uh... Cirby...

Three points.

I don't recall anyone saying it was a large trade deal.

When was the Ambassador to the Vatican a bigwig in the Iraqi nuclear program?

Aside from the fact that Niger only has a few exports, has it ever occured to anyone on the right to ask, just what does Niger *IMPORT*?
(Hint... the same thing Iraq exports.)

[email protected]:

"the report from Africa, however still remains facutal."

Well, yeah, it does.

You see, Wilson went to Niger, where he found out that there was a high-level Iraqi trade delegation looking into making a large trade deal with Niger. Considering that the two major exports from that country are livestock and uranium, that Iraq had plenty of livestock, and that one of the major people on the Iraqi delegation was a former bigwig in the Iraqi nuclear program, Wilson's public denial of what he found is sorta odd.


attn: Raymond Benson<... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

attn: Raymond Benson

It wasn't Plame's name that was classified, it was her position with the CIA.

BTW, the intelligence identities protection act does not say an agent's name must be revealed to constitute a crime, it says the agent's identity.

attn: Raymond Benson<... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

attn: Raymond Benson

It wasn't Plame's name that was classified, it was her position with the CIA.

BTW, the intelligence identities protection act does not say an agent's name must be revealed to constitute a crime, it says the agent's identity.

"When was the Ambassador to... (Below threshold)

"When was the Ambassador to the Vatican a bigwig in the Iraqi nuclear program?"

There was more than one person on the trade delegation. Even though the Ambassador denies anything about the uranium purchase attempts, he also claims that he didn't know that Niger didn't sell uranium (even though Niger was Iraq's major supplier back in the previous nuke program).

"You see, Wilson went to Niger, where he found out that there was a high-level Iraqi trade delegation looking into making a large trade deal with Niger."

...and where he was told by his contacts that the Iraqis were looking at buying uranium since there wasn't anything else in Niger that Iraq needed to buy. No manufacturing, no strategic materials, no food, nothing at all.

It's like a paroled felon getting caught in a crack house, and telling the police that he was looking for a bottle of beer.

attn: Raymond Benson<... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

attn: Raymond Benson

It wasn't Plame's name that was classified, it was her position with the CIA.

BTW, the intelligence identities protection act does not say an agent's name must be revealed to constitute a crime, it says the agent's identity.

The woman who helped WRITE ... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

The woman who helped WRITE the law, on day one, said nothing here remotely comes close enough to even qualify as a crime under the law.

Again, a "covert" again working at Langley for years is not covert.
-=Mike

attn: Bob KlahnNov... (Below threshold)
Raymond Benson:

attn: Bob Klahn

Novak reported she was a CIA agent, starting this whole affair. Prior to that, her husband told the
world (or a least the readership of Who's Who) that
she was a CIA agent. If she was covert, then he
first exposed her, since Novak found the entry in
an existing copy of Who's Who.

Bob Novak has stated:... (Below threshold)

Bob Novak has stated:
"I have revealed Rove's name because his attorney has divulged the substance of our conversation, though in a form different from my recollection. I have revealed Harlow's name because he has publicly disclosed his version of our conversation, which also differs from my recollection."

Tell me if I'm wrong here, either Novak is lying or Rove and Harlow are lying. They all can't be telling the truth, can they?

Clearly not, as Fitz hasn't... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Clearly not, as Fitz hasn't decided to press charges.
-=Mike

[email protected] (and Cirby):<p... (Below threshold)
Tony:

[email protected] (and Cirby):

Through your conversation with Cirby, you both are so close to breaking through all the political FUD and understanding what the conservatives have been saying about this all along. Finally, the government has caught up to the internet in progress of discussion about the whole affair. You can see that some of the things you think were true about Wilson's side of the argument weren't, and also a lot of the things you think were true about conservatives side aren't true either. Your conversation is almost a model for the something that anyone could read and understand what's going on in this affair.

And civil to boot! Honestly, this is a rarity in the blogosphere.

There is so much misinforma... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

There is so much misinformation in some of these posts, and plain misunderstanding, that it would take way too long for me to go through it. It is obviously easier to type than it is to read with some of the libs.

You are left in the unenviable position of defending a liar per the bipartisan 9-11 Commission. And, you are concerned over something that was not illegal--the uncovering of the source of the Wilson slander/libel.

If this is what passes for critical thinking on the left, we have many good years ahead in the Rep. party.

Geez.

YesOf course the w... (Below threshold)
Steve:

Yes

Of course the whole thing does fall down one one major point.

Wilson was telling the truth after all.

Denial is a splendid thing of course.

Oddly enough, this doesn't make this presidency anything but the worst in history still.

Read the approval ratings and weap you idiots.

Even without any real opposition this admin is dissapearing up it's own bum.
Tell us again how the mission in Iraq is accomplished.

Actually it needs to be sai... (Below threshold)
Steve:

Actually it needs to be said. How can you clowns be so gullible as you are? One thing which has never even occurred to the RW circle jerkers. Iraq has a vey significant amount of Uranium of its own. Why would they evere have worried about buying it from Niger?

This is why everyone who actually knows anything and can think independantly, knew all along that Hussein never even atempted to buy Niger Yellowcake.

Iraq is in a position to export, not import Uranium Ore. At least it was until it was illegally invaded and the country laid waste on the back of a bunch of proven lies.

Idiots!

"Of course the whole thing ... (Below threshold)

"Of course the whole thing does fall down one one major point.

Wilson was telling the truth after all."

Well, he was telling the truth to the official folks. You know, the part where he said that Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Ghana, but failed.

He lied to people like you, when he claimed the opposite (in a forum where he couldn't be charged with falsifying testimony).

And you didn't notice, even after we pointed it out. Several times.

"Iraq has a vey significant... (Below threshold)

"Iraq has a vey significant amount of Uranium of its own."

Acually, that's exactly the opposite of the truth.

If they had any significant deposits, they wouldn't have had to buy that uranium from anyone else the first couple of times they tried to build nukes. The tiny bit they had was trace amounts out of things like gravel mining, and was nothing like what you need for any sort of nontrivial nuclear program. Ounces instead of tons.

Now, Iran has some uranium deposits, but nothing like what's found in Niger.

attn Cirby The sig... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

attn Cirby

The significant amount of uranium of it's own is hundreds of tons of yellow cake, not uranium ore. And it was left over from their previous nuclear work. Remember, Iraq does have a uranium mine, and did have a reactor program. After the reactor was blown up by Israel they had nothing to use the yellow cake for.

So, yes, Iraq had hundreds of tons of yellow cake, as per the CIA report on the Niger issue.

attn Raymond Benson:<... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

attn Raymond Benson:

I have never seen where Novak claimed to have found Valerie Wilson's employment at the CIA in Who's Who. I do recall reading that his entry listed his wife as employed at the front company.

Ah, I just rechecked on Novak's recent column. He said he found her name in JW's Who's Who entry.

Bob KlahnI posted ... (Below threshold)
Raymond Benson:

Bob Klahn

I posted in my first post the following:

Columnist Robert Novak revealed that he discovered Valerie Plame's identity from her husband's -- Joe Wilson's -- entry in "Who's Who in American," in which he mentions her position with the CIA.

I do not know which year's Who's Who he used, so I
cannot verify if it does or does not say that.

Two points:
It seems a strange place to mention her CIA job.
It would be strange if Novak would lie about
something so easily disproved.

Raymond Benson,Co... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

Raymond Benson,

Columnist Robert Novak revealed that he discovered Valerie Plame's identity from her husband's -- Joe Wilson's -- entry in "Who's Who in American," in which he mentions her position with the CIA.

Where does Novak say Wilson mentioned Valerie's position with the CIA in who's who? Not in the July 10 06 column. Here is what he had to say on that.

-------------------------------------------------

Following my interview with the primary source, I sought out the secondadministration official and the CIA spokesman for confirmation. I learned Valerie Plame's name from Joe Wilson's entry in "Who's Who in America."

------------------------------------------------

There is no mention of her position with the CIA being in who's who.

In Novak's July 14 03 column, the one that blew Plame's cover, there is no mention of Who's who at all.

In his Oct 1 03 column he says only that her name appears in who's who.

If you have any column by Novak where he say's Plame's position with the CIA is mentioned in who's who, please give a link to it.

Her position appearing in who's who is such an obvious breach I do not believe it could be there and not used by Libby's lawyers in his defense. Therefor, I conclude the belief that Plame's position with the CIA appearing in Wilson's who's who entry is erroneous.

Cirby: You have he... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

Cirby:

You have heard of discovery, haven't you? If your commentary below were true Libby's lawyers could blow it all out of the water, simply by putting Wilson under oath, and questioning him about this.

The fact that they haven't is very strong evidence the attacks on Wilson are not based on fact.

It would appear Wilson was telling the truth after all.

-------------------------------------------------

"Of course the whole thing does fall down one one major point.

Wilson was telling the truth after all."

Well, he was telling the truth to the official folks. You know, the part where he said that Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Ghana, but failed.

He lied to people like you, when he claimed the opposite (in a forum where he couldn't be charged with falsifying testimony).

And you didn't notice, even after we pointed it out. Several times.
Posted by: cirby at July 12, 2006 09:10 PM

Bob KlahnHere is m... (Below threshold)
Raymond Benson:

Bob Klahn

Here is my source for the statement that Wilson's
Who's Who bio mentions his wife's CIA job:

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/16032.html

"When was the Ambassador to... (Below threshold)
bob klahn:

"When was the Ambassador to the Vatican a bigwig in the Iraqi nuclear program?"

There was more than one person on the trade delegation. Even though the Ambassador denies anything about the uranium purchase attempts, he also claims that he didn't know that Niger didn't sell uranium (even though Niger was Iraq's major supplier back in the previous nuke program).

-------------------------------------------------
So, the ambassador was not the bigwig in the Iraqi nuke program? Who was?
-------------------------------------------------

"You see, Wilson went to Niger, where he found out that there was a high-level Iraqi trade delegation looking into making a large trade deal with Niger."
------------------------------------------------
To be a bit more precise, he was told that the prime minister of Niger was told by a third party that there was an Iraqi trade delegation that wanted to discuss trade with him. This happened back in 1999 or so, not while Wilson was in Iraq. The PM refused to discuss any trade with the iraqui government.
------------------------------------------------
...and where he was told by his contacts that the Iraqis were looking at buying uranium since there wasn't anything else in Niger that Iraq needed to buy. No manufacturing, no strategic materials, no food, nothing at all.
.................................................
Niger does, however, import oil. Which they then have to pay for. Iraq exports oil. And Iraq wanted something else almost as much. Iraq wanted votes in the UN to lift the sanctions. Niger had one vote, same as the US.
-----------------------------------------------
It's like a paroled felon getting caught in a crack house, and telling the police that he was looking for a bottle of beer.
-----------------------------------------------
Remember, when Iraq had a real WMD program, it was under the auspices of their allies, the Reagan/Bush administration. Hardly a convicted felon.

Posted by: cirby at July 12, 2006 03:45 PM

You idiots will fall for an... (Below threshold)
Jim:

You idiots will fall for any of the pablum/rumour/nonsense that the righties, -CON-men Conservatives feed ya.
Like you infer of Wilson, you have an agenda.
And it AINT to tell us the truth-but rather what youd like to beleive-no matter what the real story is.




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