What he says makes no sense. Allied parachute troops targeted German troops, not random civilians!

What can you expect from someone that had anything to do with the "peanut farmer"?

I keep hearing about the vast amounts of money these terrorists have funneled to them from Iran, Saudi Arabia etc.. could some of that money also be getting funneled to our "esteemed" MSM to write fluff pieces about them aka the wash post and NYT. And also maybe some are "lobbying" several former pols to say that Israel and the US are the bad guys? We hear all the time about how effective hizbulla's propaganda machine is, why wouldn't they try to have Americans lobby for them as well. I am not saying that this the case, but I do wonder about it. after all greed is a very powerful tool and being back in the lime light for another "15 minutes of fame" can be very alluring.

Another defining moment for a Clinton appointee...

When you are losing the argument, redefine the terms.

Amb Peck needs to be careful, otherwise Howard Dean might just call him an anti-Semite.

Anyone willing to put equivalency between a terrorist group and US troops or Israel and Hezbullah, is already too far gone. They have already decided we are the bad guys overall. You can point out to them the specifics of their tactics. But chances are they've bought into some Western Exploitation created these terrorists meme.

Just hand them a Dhimmi sash (or whatever) and move along.

This is a repost, with add-ons, from the CNN thread.

What is a terrorist organization?

A group that kidnaps civilians and takes them to foreign countries for questioning and torture, without the benefit of any due process or trial.

A group that indicriminately uses weapons of war on civilians.

A group that demonizes a race or religion in order minimize their crimes aginst them.

Well, Hizballah definitely meets this definition but so does the CIA and the Israeli Mossad. So, are the US and Israeli governments terrorists too?

One should be careful before "throwing stones".

Unless you are up for explaining the invasion of Iraq, "Rendition flights", torture at Abu Grai and Guantanamo. Then you can defend Israeli abductions and torture of civilians from age 13 and up, being held in prisons for decades without a public trial or defense, the apartied-like system Israeli arabs have to live under, the continual calling for arabs to leave Israel even though many families have hundreds of years history in the region and the worst part, state sactioned assinations which have included American, Canadian and British citizens and have always taken place on foriegn soil.

Hey Chris,

One of the "political pisoners" Hezbollah desperately wants out of prison is this guy. He's a hero to them and to many others, including some in the Lebanese government.

That tells me pretty much all I need to know about which side's on the side of the angels.

Umm, those rockets Hezbollah was firing into Israeli towns last week were not aimed at military targets, but at civilian homes. Sounds like terrorism to me.

jpm I think Chris is trying to prove your point.

the apartied-like system Israeli arabs have to live under,

What, you mean like voting, freedom of travel, all the privileges of citizenship AND being exempted from military service? Wow, must suck to be them!

JohnAnnArbor- Here is a celebrated Israeli "hero". Who also happens to be responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel, killing 90 innocent civilians and was a member of Irgun a well known Jewish terrorist organization. Who am I talking about? Menachem Begin! Click Here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/begin.html

Neither side is the side of angels.

mantis- You follow the sheep don't you? It's far easier to discredit someone that it is to argue against fact. Instead of attacking me, why don't you argue against me with the FACTS and back it up.

JohnAnnArbor- Yeah, it must really suck. Can you imagine the US passing a law that said any Jew in the country that gets married to a non-citizen must leave the country because their spouse will not be allowed in? That's the way it is for Israeli arab citizens.

Also, Wikipedia has this to say, "According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, the Israeli government "did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens." It's sourced if you want to see it for yourself.

Stop blindly supporting Israel until you know all the facts, then you will feel quite a bit differently.

manta- Oh and those Israeli rockets that targeted Red Cross ambulances, the Proctor & Gamble warehouse, the chocolate factory, civilians ordered to flee and the unarmed UN observation team, were aimed at "military targets"?

You just proved my point. Israel targets civilians too and meets the same definition of "terrorist organization".

Stop blindly supporting Israel until you know all the facts, then you will feel quite a bit differently.

Which side erupts in wild celebrations when a successful "operation" kills civilians?

Hint: their flags are red, white, black, and green.

And, as long as you're going back in history, who celebrated the "heroic" slaughter of Olympic athletes in 1972?

Israel is an imperfect democracy. Hezbollah and their Arab and Persian enablers are perfect genocidal maniacs.

Chris, think of the firepower that Israel has at its disposal. If they really were interested in killing civilians we would be seeing far more deaths than we have.

I question a few of their targets such as the milk farm and others, but from what I'm reading the Israelis have been remarkably precise in their attacks which are directed at Hezbollah and the infrastructure they use. While I think that by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure Israel will hurt the economy of Lebanon so much that it will work against them in the long run, I'm certainly not buying the "Israel targets civilians" meme. Further, it is entirely possible that some of the targets you mentioned were located close to Hezbollah targets (as we know the UN was) or Israel had intelligence identifying them as used by Hezbollah (and yes, Hezbollah hides among citizens and businesses, a cowardly and despicable practice).

I think many around here will find it amusing that you think I'm "following the sheep". On second thought, I kind of like that, because who follows the sheep but the sheepdog? Not exactly Hannibal Barca, but still...

JohnAnnArbor- See that bias and racist. You have just tried to lump every arab into celebrating the death of Israeli's and provided nothing to back it up. So, I say, "Prove it".

In the mean time, enjoy my "proof", that Israeli's celebrate terrorism, when it benefit's them. Here and Here and Here

This just in (no kidding...AP provided this, uh, tidbit)

"Lebanon's president, a strong ally of Hezbollah, warned Thursday that an intensified Israeli offensive to crush the guerrillas could backfire and drive them to more violence"

Wow! MORE violence?? So when police chase bank robbers, does that drive the bank robbers to rob MORE banks??

Still, AP led with the story, so it's GOTTA be important...right??

manta- We can agree to disagree that Israel is targeting civilians. :)

I just want you and everyone else to keep an open mind every time they here about a civilian owned tv station,like LBC, or gas station, or hospital or grain storage and on and on. Plus, all of Southern Beirut is not a "Hezbollah stronghold" as reported in popular media. Many of the towns bombed by Israel were Sunni and Druze, who hate Si'ites! Why turn them agianst you unless it's collective punishment?

Also, why won't Israel simply let the ICRC evacuate any civilians stuck in the south? It would take a day, day and a half.

lol - So, you are the Big Dog in the herd?

Keep in mind, Israel has used "collective punishment" very effectively against Palestinians, why would this be any different?

You said it, Chris. I asked two rhetorical questions. Your response indicates you know who celebrates slaughter with joy in the streets.

"Chris, think of the firepower that Israel has at its disposal. If they really were interested in killing civilians we would be seeing far more deaths than we have."

Oh come on mantis --- now I'm not saying Israel is targeting civilians, but if they were they certainly wouldn't be obvious about it, now would they?

No, if they wanted to target citizens that would do so in a manner that leaves doubt as to their intentions.

Justrand- It could get ALOT worse. We could see attacks in this country for our blatant support of this operation. I am definitely more worried about a group like Hezbollah, than I am of jokers like Al Quaida.

Hezbollah has a long track record of success in killing Americans. Al Quaida blew its wad, with an incredible amount of luck, in one attack.

Man this is so boring, playing "who's the terrorist?" It simply illustrates that complete lack of judgement many people have.

Israel has a law prohibiting its Jewish citizens from marrying non-jews. That sucks. Hezbollah has a charter stating their objective is the genocidal destruction of Israel. But hey, hey, I know. We shouldn't make quick judgements here. We need to get all the facts, right?

How about this thought problem. If Israel WANTED to kill Lebanese civilians, intentionally, without remorse, could they kill more civilians than they already are now? (answer is yes, even without the a-bomb). Now could Hezbollah kill any more civilians than they already are now? (answer no - they are already trying to kill as many Israeli citizens as possible)

I know. This is just so confusing. How can we possibly support good people who are not perfect? And, you know, Hezbollah may be homicidal nuts, but at least they are not...gulp...hypocrites.

JohnAnnArbor- Yeah - Israeli's. See, you still can't offer any proof. I gave you three very comprehensive examples of Israeli's celebrating terrorism. Give me some proof that ALL arabs celebrate terrorism. Well?

Also, Israel has assassinated Palestinian leaders as recently as July 2001, when they were under a so-called "truce". Is that what Israel calls a truce? Do assassinations of political figures count as terrorism in your book?

Lebanon is a "imperfect" democracy too. Is that how you justify decimating a country whose majority is made up of Christians, Druze, Sunni's and Jews?

Big D- You're clueless. High ranking Israeli's have called for the extermination and ethnic cleansing of arabs for decades. They have published cartoons aimed at children portraying, "the only good arab, is a dead arab." Hebrew text books portrya arabs as "inferior" and of "lower value" than Israeli's. The Israeli Jews truly, truly believe that they are "God's chosen people".

That means if you are not Jewish Big D, then they truly believe that you are inferior to them. Did you know that? You are defending a country that believes they are superior to the rest of us.

Big D- Israeli Jews can marry whomever they want, unless it's an arab. It's only ARABS that are fully discriminated against.

What would you say if the US Government passed similar laws against American Indians? If newspapers start calling for us to round up all the Indians and ship them to any country they choose? Would the Indians be justified in striking back?

Free Leonard Peltier!

Rather than understand why Hezbollah exists and what their purpose is, it's far easier to live in your sound-bite world and say they are "terrorists, extremists, religious nuts, ect". You discount and minimalize them before you even understand how and why they exist.

I have never defended their actions, like you who jump to defend Israel's crimes.

Try understanding your enemy and you will learn something about yourself.
-Sun Tszu

manta- ROTFLMAO

Chris: "It could get ALOT worse. We could see attacks in this country for our blatant support of this operation"

Holy shit!! Quick, Chris, help me understand how I can help appease them!! Maybe it's not too late. We sure don't TERRORISTS to start thinking about TERRORIZING people!! Yikes!

Justrand- It's pretty easy, we can stop blindly supporting Israel. Especially when they do something wrong. We can stop using our veto everytime the UN wishes to criticize and condemn Israel for their multitude of human rights violations.

The US can start speaking out against Israel's crimes and acts of state terrorism. We can stop acting like terrorists ourselves.

Any of this make sense to you?

Chris: "we can stop blindly supporting Israel"

So freaking S-I-M-P-L-E. Are you like an Ambassador type guy, or sumthin??? You're soooo smart.

So let's see...
1948 - Israel declares independance and 7 Arab nations simultaneously attack Israel. The Mufti (fresh from being a guest of the Third Reich) declares "Death to ALL Jews". We "blindly" recognize Israel's right to EXIST! What were we thinking???

1967 - the Usual Suspects line up to attack Israel...again. World stands by humming "Singin' in the Rain" while Arab propaganda declares the Jews are losing EVERYWHERE!! Reality surfaces about day 4 that the Arabs are lying their asses off...and are in fact getting those same asses KICKED!! World stops whistling and DEMANDS Israel stop!! We're part of the World, so we agree and Israel stops.

1973 - This time the World is CONVINCED that Isreal is about to be exterminated, and so goes on extended lunch break...for two weeks!! When Isreal surrounds and is about to exterminate entire Egyptian army the World burps and DEMANDS Israel stop!!

Jordan and Egypt cash in chips and leave the casino not too much later.

From 1948 until now we have this little bitty OIL-less nation surrounded by 50 million people who don't just want them GONE...they want them all DEAD. We (dammit) seem to feel that The Holocaust Part II would not be a great idea!! (sequels suck)

So we "blindly" support Isreal, and just royally piss off folks like the Arab Rocket Collector Society in South Lebanon. These budding rocket enthuisasts just want to admire their 15,000 rockets in peace...but those damn Joooooooos just refuse to die on their own!!

So now, these Wehner Vaughn Braun wannabes are "forced" to part with their "babies". Dumb old Joooos.

How am I doin', Chris??

Chris, I don't know if you are completely ignorant of history, or just partially. But rest assured, you are ignorant of history. Here is some help. How many mid east wars were started by Israel. Answer none. Your bias statements are tainted by your obvious hatred of Jews. Israel has the most powerful military in the area, yet they only use it in self defense. That cannot be said of it neighbors, can it. To be blinded by hatred is to be stupid.

Zelsdorf Ragsucker III said: "How many mid east wars were started by Israel. Answer none."

Let's not forget the Six Day War, launched by Israel.

Six-Day War From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Six-Day War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים transliteration: Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim, Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة transliteration: ħarb al-ayam as-sita), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, Six Days' War, or June War, was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. It began when Israel launched a preemptive attack[1] [2] [3] [4] against Egypt following the latter's blockade of Israeli shipping in the Straits of Tiran, removal of UNEF peacekeeping forces from the Sinai, and deployment of military forces in the Sinai on the Israeli border.

Ragsucker drooled: "...rest assured, you are ignorant of history." - lol! What a moron, but he didn't stop there. Ragsucker continues "Your bias statements are tainted by your obvious hatred of Jews. Israel has the most powerful military in the area, yet they only use it in self defense. That cannot be said of it neighbors, can it. To be blinded by hatred is to be stupid."

Stupid indeed. Is Ragsucker just a new name for LoveAmerica Idiot? jhow - is that you? Mitchell, my biatch - -are you hiding from me?

I support Israel in their current efforts against Hizzbullah, but you Republicans really should shut up and quit wearing your *sses as hats. You aren't helping Israel with these kinds of stupid remarks.

Lee: "Let's not forget the Six Day War, launched by Israel"

Uh, Lee, you might want to review the whole 6-day war thingee. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon MASSED their armies on Israel's borders. The Egyptian and Syrian air forces were fueled and armed, with H-Hour literally just hours away.

ALL records of that time are clear...the combined might of ALL those Arab nations was about to fall on Israel. This AINT THE FREAKING OLYMPICS...ok? Israel KNEW exactly when the attack was to begin and, oops, jumped the gun.

Good for them!!

Justrand, Israel started the war - paint it any way you wish - and I'm not arguing that they wren't justified in starting it - just that they did start it, as history clearly shows. Ragsucker is wrong, again.

Lee, a naval blockade is an act of war.