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Former Ambassador Peck -- "the terrorist organization is in the eye of the beholder"

A very alert reader, Larwyn, tipped me to this terrorist sympathizing appearance of former Ambassador to Iraq, Ed Peck, on Fox's Dayside this afternoon. Ian Schwartz has the video and a partial transcript. You really have to see it to believe it. Peck not only said that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, but rather an organization with "objectives to which we object very strongly," but he also compared Hezbollah to our troops in WWII.

Yesterday I blogged about CNN correspondent Tom Foreman's inability to define Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. There seems to be an epidemic of those who argue there is no difference between Israel and Hezbollah or between the U.S. and the terrorists. What is it going to take to make the distinction? Hopefully it will not take another 9/11. At this point, I fear that might not even be enough to make some understand the difference.


Comments (52)

What he says makes no sense... (Below threshold)

What he says makes no sense. Allied parachute troops targeted German troops, not random civilians!

What can you expect from so... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

What can you expect from someone that had anything to do with the "peanut farmer"?

I keep hearing about the va... (Below threshold)
SquidGrunt:

I keep hearing about the vast amounts of money these terrorists have funneled to them from Iran, Saudi Arabia etc.. could some of that money also be getting funneled to our "esteemed" MSM to write fluff pieces about them aka the wash post and NYT. And also maybe some are "lobbying" several former pols to say that Israel and the US are the bad guys? We hear all the time about how effective hizbulla's propaganda machine is, why wouldn't they try to have Americans lobby for them as well. I am not saying that this the case, but I do wonder about it. after all greed is a very powerful tool and being back in the lime light for another "15 minutes of fame" can be very alluring.

Another defining moment for... (Below threshold)
serfer62:

Another defining moment for a Clinton appointee...

When you are losing the arg... (Below threshold)
epador:

When you are losing the argument, redefine the terms.

Amb Peck needs to be carefu... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Amb Peck needs to be careful, otherwise Howard Dean might just call him an anti-Semite.

Anyone willing to put equiv... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

Anyone willing to put equivalency between a terrorist group and US troops or Israel and Hezbullah, is already too far gone. They have already decided we are the bad guys overall. You can point out to them the specifics of their tactics. But chances are they've bought into some Western Exploitation created these terrorists meme.

Just hand them a Dhimmi sash (or whatever) and move along.

This is a repost, with add-... (Below threshold)
Chris:

This is a repost, with add-ons, from the CNN thread.

What is a terrorist organization?

A group that kidnaps civilians and takes them to foreign countries for questioning and torture, without the benefit of any due process or trial.

A group that indicriminately uses weapons of war on civilians.

A group that demonizes a race or religion in order minimize their crimes aginst them.


Well, Hizballah definitely meets this definition but so does the CIA and the Israeli Mossad. So, are the US and Israeli governments terrorists too?

One should be careful before "throwing stones".

Unless you are up for explaining the invasion of Iraq, "Rendition flights", torture at Abu Grai and Guantanamo. Then you can defend Israeli abductions and torture of civilians from age 13 and up, being held in prisons for decades without a public trial or defense, the apartied-like system Israeli arabs have to live under, the continual calling for arabs to leave Israel even though many families have hundreds of years history in the region and the worst part, state sactioned assinations which have included American, Canadian and British citizens and have always taken place on foriegn soil.

Hey Chris,One of t... (Below threshold)

Hey Chris,

One of the "political pisoners" Hezbollah desperately wants out of prison is this guy. He's a hero to them and to many others, including some in the Lebanese government.

That tells me pretty much all I need to know about which side's on the side of the angels.

Umm, those rockets Hezbolla... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Umm, those rockets Hezbollah was firing into Israeli towns last week were not aimed at military targets, but at civilian homes. Sounds like terrorism to me.

jpm I think Chris is trying to prove your point.

the apartied-like system... (Below threshold)

the apartied-like system Israeli arabs have to live under,

What, you mean like voting, freedom of travel, all the privileges of citizenship AND being exempted from military service? Wow, must suck to be them!

JohnAnnArbor- Here i... (Below threshold)
Chris:

JohnAnnArbor- Here is a celebrated Israeli "hero". Who also happens to be responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel, killing 90 innocent civilians and was a member of Irgun a well known Jewish terrorist organization. Who am I talking about? Menachem Begin! Click Here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/begin.html

Neither side is the side of angels.

mantis- You follow the sheep don't you? It's far easier to discredit someone that it is to argue against fact. Instead of attacking me, why don't you argue against me with the FACTS and back it up.

JohnAnnArbor- Yeah, it must really suck. Can you imagine the US passing a law that said any Jew in the country that gets married to a non-citizen must leave the country because their spouse will not be allowed in? That's the way it is for Israeli arab citizens.

Also, Wikipedia has this to say, "According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, the Israeli government "did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens." It's sourced if you want to see it for yourself.

Stop blindly supporting Israel until you know all the facts, then you will feel quite a bit differently.

manta- Oh and those ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

manta- Oh and those Israeli rockets that targeted Red Cross ambulances, the Proctor & Gamble warehouse, the chocolate factory, civilians ordered to flee and the unarmed UN observation team, were aimed at "military targets"?

You just proved my point. Israel targets civilians too and meets the same definition of "terrorist organization".

Stop blindly supporting ... (Below threshold)

Stop blindly supporting Israel until you know all the facts, then you will feel quite a bit differently.

Which side erupts in wild celebrations when a successful "operation" kills civilians?

Hint: their flags are red, white, black, and green.

And, as long as you're goin... (Below threshold)

And, as long as you're going back in history, who celebrated the "heroic" slaughter of Olympic athletes in 1972?

Israel is an imperfect democracy. Hezbollah and their Arab and Persian enablers are perfect genocidal maniacs.

Chris, think of the firepow... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Chris, think of the firepower that Israel has at its disposal. If they really were interested in killing civilians we would be seeing far more deaths than we have.

I question a few of their targets such as the milk farm and others, but from what I'm reading the Israelis have been remarkably precise in their attacks which are directed at Hezbollah and the infrastructure they use. While I think that by destroying Lebanon's infrastructure Israel will hurt the economy of Lebanon so much that it will work against them in the long run, I'm certainly not buying the "Israel targets civilians" meme. Further, it is entirely possible that some of the targets you mentioned were located close to Hezbollah targets (as we know the UN was) or Israel had intelligence identifying them as used by Hezbollah (and yes, Hezbollah hides among citizens and businesses, a cowardly and despicable practice).

I think many around here will find it amusing that you think I'm "following the sheep". On second thought, I kind of like that, because who follows the sheep but the sheepdog? Not exactly Hannibal Barca, but still...

JohnAnnArbor- See th... (Below threshold)
Chris:

JohnAnnArbor- See that bias and racist. You have just tried to lump every arab into celebrating the death of Israeli's and provided nothing to back it up. So, I say, "Prove it".

In the mean time, enjoy my "proof", that Israeli's celebrate terrorism, when it benefit's them. Here and Here and Here

This just in (no kidding...... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

This just in (no kidding...AP provided this, uh, tidbit)

"Lebanon's president, a strong ally of Hezbollah, warned Thursday that an intensified Israeli offensive to crush the guerrillas could backfire and drive them to more violence"

Wow! MORE violence?? So when police chase bank robbers, does that drive the bank robbers to rob MORE banks??

Still, AP led with the story, so it's GOTTA be important...right??

manta- We can agree ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

manta- We can agree to disagree that Israel is targeting civilians. :)

I just want you and everyone else to keep an open mind every time they here about a civilian owned tv station,like LBC, or gas station, or hospital or grain storage and on and on. Plus, all of Southern Beirut is not a "Hezbollah stronghold" as reported in popular media. Many of the towns bombed by Israel were Sunni and Druze, who hate Si'ites! Why turn them agianst you unless it's collective punishment?

Also, why won't Israel simply let the ICRC evacuate any civilians stuck in the south? It would take a day, day and a half.

lol - So, you are the Big Dog in the herd?

Keep in mind, Israel has used "collective punishment" very effectively against Palestinians, why would this be any different?

You said it, Chris. I aske... (Below threshold)

You said it, Chris. I asked two rhetorical questions. Your response indicates you know who celebrates slaughter with joy in the streets.

"Chris, think of the fir... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"Chris, think of the firepower that Israel has at its disposal. If they really were interested in killing civilians we would be seeing far more deaths than we have."

Oh come on mantis --- now I'm not saying Israel is targeting civilians, but if they were they certainly wouldn't be obvious about it, now would they?

No, if they wanted to target citizens that would do so in a manner that leaves doubt as to their intentions.

Justrand- It could g... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Justrand- It could get ALOT worse. We could see attacks in this country for our blatant support of this operation. I am definitely more worried about a group like Hezbollah, than I am of jokers like Al Quaida.

Hezbollah has a long track record of success in killing Americans. Al Quaida blew its wad, with an incredible amount of luck, in one attack.

Man this is so boring, play... (Below threshold)
Big D:

Man this is so boring, playing "who's the terrorist?" It simply illustrates that complete lack of judgement many people have.

Israel has a law prohibiting its Jewish citizens from marrying non-jews. That sucks. Hezbollah has a charter stating their objective is the genocidal destruction of Israel. But hey, hey, I know. We shouldn't make quick judgements here. We need to get all the facts, right?

How about this thought problem. If Israel WANTED to kill Lebanese civilians, intentionally, without remorse, could they kill more civilians than they already are now? (answer is yes, even without the a-bomb). Now could Hezbollah kill any more civilians than they already are now? (answer no - they are already trying to kill as many Israeli citizens as possible)

I know. This is just so confusing. How can we possibly support good people who are not perfect? And, you know, Hezbollah may be homicidal nuts, but at least they are not...gulp...hypocrites.

JohnAnnArbor- Yeah -... (Below threshold)
Chris:

JohnAnnArbor- Yeah - Israeli's. See, you still can't offer any proof. I gave you three very comprehensive examples of Israeli's celebrating terrorism. Give me some proof that ALL arabs celebrate terrorism. Well?

Also, Israel has assassinated Palestinian leaders as recently as July 2001, when they were under a so-called "truce". Is that what Israel calls a truce? Do assassinations of political figures count as terrorism in your book?

Lebanon is a "imperfect" democracy too. Is that how you justify decimating a country whose majority is made up of Christians, Druze, Sunni's and Jews?

Big D- You're cluele... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Big D- You're clueless. High ranking Israeli's have called for the extermination and ethnic cleansing of arabs for decades. They have published cartoons aimed at children portraying, "the only good arab, is a dead arab." Hebrew text books portrya arabs as "inferior" and of "lower value" than Israeli's. The Israeli Jews truly, truly believe that they are "God's chosen people".

That means if you are not Jewish Big D, then they truly believe that you are inferior to them. Did you know that? You are defending a country that believes they are superior to the rest of us.

Big D- Israeli Jews ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Big D- Israeli Jews can marry whomever they want, unless it's an arab. It's only ARABS that are fully discriminated against.

What would you say if the US Government passed similar laws against American Indians? If newspapers start calling for us to round up all the Indians and ship them to any country they choose? Would the Indians be justified in striking back?

Free Leonard Peltier!... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Free Leonard Peltier!

Rather than understand why ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Rather than understand why Hezbollah exists and what their purpose is, it's far easier to live in your sound-bite world and say they are "terrorists, extremists, religious nuts, ect". You discount and minimalize them before you even understand how and why they exist.

I have never defended their actions, like you who jump to defend Israel's crimes.

Try understanding your enemy and you will learn something about yourself.
-Sun Tszu

manta- ROTFLMAO... (Below threshold)
Chris:

manta- ROTFLMAO

Chris: "It could get ALO... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Chris: "It could get ALOT worse. We could see attacks in this country for our blatant support of this operation"

Holy shit!! Quick, Chris, help me understand how I can help appease them!! Maybe it's not too late. We sure don't TERRORISTS to start thinking about TERRORIZING people!! Yikes!

Justrand- It's prett... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Justrand- It's pretty easy, we can stop blindly supporting Israel. Especially when they do something wrong. We can stop using our veto everytime the UN wishes to criticize and condemn Israel for their multitude of human rights violations.

The US can start speaking out against Israel's crimes and acts of state terrorism. We can stop acting like terrorists ourselves.

Any of this make sense to you?

Chris: "we can stop blin... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Chris: "we can stop blindly supporting Israel"

So freaking S-I-M-P-L-E. Are you like an Ambassador type guy, or sumthin??? You're soooo smart.

So let's see...
1948 - Israel declares independance and 7 Arab nations simultaneously attack Israel. The Mufti (fresh from being a guest of the Third Reich) declares "Death to ALL Jews". We "blindly" recognize Israel's right to EXIST! What were we thinking???

1967 - the Usual Suspects line up to attack Israel...again. World stands by humming "Singin' in the Rain" while Arab propaganda declares the Jews are losing EVERYWHERE!! Reality surfaces about day 4 that the Arabs are lying their asses off...and are in fact getting those same asses KICKED!! World stops whistling and DEMANDS Israel stop!! We're part of the World, so we agree and Israel stops.

1973 - This time the World is CONVINCED that Isreal is about to be exterminated, and so goes on extended lunch break...for two weeks!! When Isreal surrounds and is about to exterminate entire Egyptian army the World burps and DEMANDS Israel stop!!

Jordan and Egypt cash in chips and leave the casino not too much later.

From 1948 until now we have this little bitty OIL-less nation surrounded by 50 million people who don't just want them GONE...they want them all DEAD. We (dammit) seem to feel that The Holocaust Part II would not be a great idea!! (sequels suck)

So we "blindly" support Isreal, and just royally piss off folks like the Arab Rocket Collector Society in South Lebanon. These budding rocket enthuisasts just want to admire their 15,000 rockets in peace...but those damn Joooooooos just refuse to die on their own!!

So now, these Wehner Vaughn Braun wannabes are "forced" to part with their "babies". Dumb old Joooos.

How am I doin', Chris??

Chris, I don't know if you ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Chris, I don't know if you are completely ignorant of history, or just partially. But rest assured, you are ignorant of history. Here is some help. How many mid east wars were started by Israel. Answer none. Your bias statements are tainted by your obvious hatred of Jews. Israel has the most powerful military in the area, yet they only use it in self defense. That cannot be said of it neighbors, can it. To be blinded by hatred is to be stupid.

Zelsdorf Ragsucker III said... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Zelsdorf Ragsucker III said: "How many mid east wars were started by Israel. Answer none."

Let's not forget the Six Day War, launched by Israel.

Six-Day War From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Six-Day War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים transliteration: Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim, Arabic: حرب الأيام الستة transliteration: ħarb al-ayam as-sita), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, Six Days' War, or June War, was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. It began when Israel launched a preemptive attack[1] [2] [3] [4] against Egypt following the latter's blockade of Israeli shipping in the Straits of Tiran, removal of UNEF peacekeeping forces from the Sinai, and deployment of military forces in the Sinai on the Israeli border.

Ragsucker drooled: "...rest assured, you are ignorant of history." - lol! What a moron, but he didn't stop there. Ragsucker continues "Your bias statements are tainted by your obvious hatred of Jews. Israel has the most powerful military in the area, yet they only use it in self defense. That cannot be said of it neighbors, can it. To be blinded by hatred is to be stupid."

Stupid indeed. Is Ragsucker just a new name for LoveAmerica Idiot? jhow - is that you? Mitchell, my biatch - -are you hiding from me?

I support Israel in their current efforts against Hizzbullah, but you Republicans really should shut up and quit wearing your *sses as hats. You aren't helping Israel with these kinds of stupid remarks.

Lee: "Let's not forget t... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Lee: "Let's not forget the Six Day War, launched by Israel"

Uh, Lee, you might want to review the whole 6-day war thingee. Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon MASSED their armies on Israel's borders. The Egyptian and Syrian air forces were fueled and armed, with H-Hour literally just hours away.

ALL records of that time are clear...the combined might of ALL those Arab nations was about to fall on Israel. This AINT THE FREAKING OLYMPICS...ok? Israel KNEW exactly when the attack was to begin and, oops, jumped the gun.

Good for them!!

Justrand, Israel started th... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Justrand, Israel started the war - paint it any way you wish - and I'm not arguing that they wren't justified in starting it - just that they did start it, as history clearly shows. Ragsucker is wrong, again.

Lee, a naval blockade is an... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Lee, a naval blockade is an act of war.

Justrand- I'll start with y... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Justrand- I'll start with you.

1948 - Israel declares independence by taking 55% of the land mass of Palestine, without any thought or input of the 450,000 arabs living within those borders. They are instantly recognized by the US, against the advice of the top advisors to Roosevelt. Great Britian "abstains", even though they had been the initial proponents for a "Jewish State" They backed away from the plan when BOTH sides started behaving badly. Israel immediately expels or displaces 600,ooo arabs into refugee camps in Lebanon, Egypt, the West Bank, Gaza and declares, that "arabs need to take care of arabs", while refusing to compensate or allow the return of people that lost their homes, farms and businesses.

!967 - Israel started it, under the auspices of a "pre-emptive strike" They convinced Eisenhour that an invasion from Egypt was imminent. A little know fact, a US radar ship off the coast of Egypt that was monitoring the war was attacked by the Israeli's. For all intents and purposes the war was over day one. It was a surprise attack that completely routed Egypt. Jordan, to this day, admits they sent their army to the border, not to fight the Israeli's, but to prevent anymore Palestinians from flooding in and destabilizing their country.

1973 - The Olympics was a great tragedy.

Now to Zelsdorf Ragshaft III- hahahahahahah

I was waiting for you. Whenever anyone ever criticizes Israel they are automatically painted a "Jew Hater". Guess what? I don't have any problem with Jews. I have family through marriage that are Jews.

However, I love America first and I think our blind support for Israel is damaging to America. I say, let's spend the $3B a year we give away to Israel, here in the US solving our problems. Israel can solve its own problems, without our money and weapons.

Chris, do you even OWN a hi... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Chris, do you even OWN a history book?? Any history book?

Chris: [1948]"They are instantly recognized by the US, against the advice of the top advisors to Roosevelt. "

And serves those advisors to Roosevelt right!! Dammit, the man had been DEAD for 3+ years!!! Stop adivising him!

chris: "1967 - Israel started it, under the auspices of a "pre-emptive strike" They convinced Eisenhour that an invasion from Egypt was imminent."

hmmm...Eisenhower? not "Eisenhour"?? 'cause if you mean "Eisenhour", the guy who ran the deli down on 6th and Main street (GREAT Rueben sandwiches!) then ya got me, 'cause I have no idea what HE thought of the 1967 war!!

But Eisenhower the PRESIDENT had been the EX-Prez for 7 years, and I don't think he was Commander in Chief. So "convincing" him an invasion was "imminent" would be pointless. Although, you DID pick someone still ALIVE for this example (he died in 1969).

then this from you, Chris: "1973 - The Olympics was a great tragedy."

Chris...have you checked your medication levels? Is there someone we should call?

Seriously, dude...do NOT mix your meds!!!

It's late, I'm tired. I mea... (Below threshold)
Chris:

It's late, I'm tired. I meant Truman and Johnson.

Mispelling aside, can you just stick to the discussion or is this the only way you can win an argument?

Fine, you keep thinking I'm crazy.

LOL - actually Justrand, I ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

LOL - actually Justrand, I probably deserve that. (Yes - I feel like an idiot and I'm even blushing a little.)

I'm looking at what I wrote earlier and I'm cracking-up, though. That's what I get for stumbling in after "happy hour" and writing a response.

I'll give you a better, "clear-headed" response tommorrow.

Anyway ... till tommorrow. - lmao

dammit Chris, I was having ... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

dammit Chris, I was having so much fun toying with you...but now you want me to be serious!

OK, I'm tired too. so here goes

Israel wants to EXIST. The Jews who founded this State after WWII saw the ENTIRE Jewish people on the brink of extinction. These people fought for their very lives in 1948.

The Arabs who attacked them then and now, controlled and control a land area OVER ONE HUNDRED times their size...and sitting on untold wealth. With a population to match.

The Jews who settled in what is now Israel before 1948 BOUGHT the land they farmed. They did NOT steal it. Yet they have been accused of STEALING it. pure LIES.

When one people desire PEACE, and the others desire DEATH I tend to side with PEACE.

The "injustices" you and others mention regarding Israeli politics are nothing compared to the injustice of every Jew on the face of the Earth being exterminated.

That was the aim of Hitler...it is the aim of Hebullah and Iran.

Justrand- I don't mind you ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Justrand- I don't mind you messing with me. I actually like debating the topic because I usually learn something new or am reminded of something I have forgotten.

I know that the Jews purchased the land they settled into, prior to 1948. I know that the Jews suffered greatly at the hands of the Nazi's and Nazi sympathizers. I also have no problem with Israel existing as a Jewish state and I am happy to see her be a successful democracy.

However, it does bother me that there were atrocities on both sides, including Israel. It bothers me even more that, after how Jews were treated by the Nazi's, that they implement some of the very same "ethnic cleansing" activities that were used against the Jews. I don't defend the atrocities of Arab's, which are well published.

I just don't feel that Israel is completely innocent. I also feel like Israeli's did not do enough to resolve the "Palestinian Problem" after 1948. It is also a problem for me, that most American's don't realize that the 1948 boundaries of Israel had nearly as many Arabs within its borders, as it did Jews. The Israeli's forced about 500,000 Arabs out of their new country. There were massacre's, some just fled the violence and war or were pressured to leave, but it is horrible that Jews teach their children that the Arab's "just left".

It is also horrible that Israeli Jews systemically discriminate against the Israeli Arabs and we as American's turn a blind eye to it. If Israel truly wants peace then they have to be the bigger guy and lift the Palestinian's out of abject poverty. Will some of the Palestinian's take advantage of it? Probably ... but in the end, it is a lot harder to get a guy to strap a bomb to himself, when he has something to lose, like a home, job and family. The Palestinian's have a 60% illiteracy rate, their prospects for a better future are nil and they live like dogs in the camps. Have you ever seen a Palestinian refugee camp first hand?

I have and it is a crime against humanity that we, the US included, have done nothing about it. They have to steal electricity, many homes have no running water, most have no prospects of employment or even rudimentary medical care. They don't have Passports and wonder every day if Israel will let them come in and work today? Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah come in and build them schools, medical centers, Mosques, and provide social services. Of course they are going to turn around and support these groups, who else showed them any respect or gave a damn about them. I don't defend Hamas and Hezbollah but I do understand why they are so popular among the poorest of Arab's.

In my opinion, Israel doesn't need our help like before. The Palestinian's, Lebanese and Syrian's do and then we can win the hearts and minds of the average person in these countries. Instead, we refuse to understand them. We refuse to listen to them and we paint them all as religious zealot's. Even though that's not true.

There will never be peace as long as there is such an imbalance of wealth in that region. Lebanon was Israel's greatest chance at having a true Arab ally and they blew it. I was in Beirut three weeks before the bombing started. There was hope and pride at the flourishing tourism. Druze leader's discussed with me how there would be peace with Israel one day and that there was great pressure to disarm Hezbollah and it would come one day but no one wanted another civil war. Their big dream was to see a highway stretch from Europe, through Turkey, Syria, Lebanon to Israel and Egypt and for Lebanon and Israel to have "open borders". They wanted to be at the center of this trading hub of the Middle East and could foresee Israel being their partner. That dream has been crushed into dust. Everyone, including the Christian's, blame Israel, far more than Hezbollah, for the destruction that has rained down on them. With exception of the Shi'ite's they also hate Hezbollah but Hezbollah is part of Lebanon, where Israel is an invader.

There also has to be a Palestinian State that is not subject to the political and economic whims of Israel. There needs to be a good faith effort on the part of Israel to resolve land disputes with Palestinian families displaced in 1948, not with the Palestinian Authority but directly with the families that lost everything. Israel can not win this on a government to government level. They can only succeed by converting one family at a time.

Otherwise, there is no hope of peace and we should just stay the hell out of there.

I just wanted to add one la... (Below threshold)
Chris:

I just wanted to add one last thing. The idea for a Jewish state started in the 1890's by, I believe, an Austrian Jew. He wrote a book on the idea. He originally wanted this State in Europe but as the idea took hold, many supporters of the idea looked to the Holy Lands. I know in the 1930's that there were something like 500,000 Arabs and Druze in the region and only 30,000 Jews who were mainly on the coast.

The British supported the idea, seeing that they could benefit from a "friendly" Jewish State in the region. However, the British and French diplomats that carved up the Middle East colonies, did so without ever understanding or consulting with the inhabitants of the region. Which is why the entire region is so volatile. There are just as much Arab against Arab hostilities as there are against Israel.

In the mean time, tens of thousands of Jews immigrated from Europe, as the Nazi's came into power. Even more came to Palestine fleeing the war. This upset the Arab inhabitants who saw these European Jews as unwelcome in what they saw as their territory.

There were acts of terror on both sides. Interestingly, after the WWII, the Jews and Arabs actually worked together performing terrorist attacks on the British. The British imposed a ban on any further Jewish immigration. However, with millions of displaced Jews being released from concentration camps, there was a flourishing illegal boat lift from Europe to Haifa.

This and the attacks on British assets led Britian to back away from the idea of a Jewish State. They turned it over to the newly formed UN and abstained from voting. The day after the British Mandate expired on the colony, Israel declared its independence. Jewish leaders recognized a problem at the time. Nearly half their country, a supposedly Jewish State, was made up of Arabs. They recognized that it would be unsustainable to maintain a Jewish State with so many Arabs and set out on expelling them during the 1948 war.

Israel had every right to defend herself against the onslaught from the Arab world. We must also recognize that Israel wanted to rid herself of her Arab citizens. Also, after the 1948 war Israel adopted a policy of "Let Arabs take care of Arabs". This left half a million Palestinian's in refugee camps.

The Arabs were quick to act with aggression and were soundly defeated time and time again. The Arabs have committed horrendous acts of terrorism against Israel and called for death to all Jews. However, there are those in Israel that still call for the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel and make claims like "the only good Arab is a dead Arab".

No "pucker puss" (lee lee) ... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

No "pucker puss" (lee lee) that's not me. What's the matter, getting under your skin? I knew you would finally respond because you can dish it out but you are such a wimp that you can't take it. he he

That leads us to today. </p... (Below threshold)
Chris:

That leads us to today.

Palestinian's as young as thirteen are snatched off the street, detained, tortured and imprisoned without any defense or representation. Many "confess" to crimes to stop the beatings. Israel practices State sponsored assassinations even during "truce" periods. This always sets off a series of retaliation strikes.

Israel will arbitrarily close the border and prevent Arabs from their only means of supporting their families, as a form of collective punishment. This happened in Lebanon, when Israel pulled out. They closed the border, where many poor Shi'ites had been crossing to work on the farms in Northern Israel. This left an opening for Hezbollah to come in and "save" these people from starvation.

The repeated air strikes against infrastructure, food supplies, hospitals and ambulances does not endear the Israeli's to anyone. The entire world, with exception of the US and Britian, are condemning Israel's bombardment of civilian targets. This will not hurt Hezbollah and will only help them recruit even more members. All Hezbollah has to do to win, is not lose. They will be seen has hero's that stood up to the mighty US and Israel.

Chris your so full of lefty... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

Chris your so full of lefty shit that it boggles the mind. Why should there be a "Palestinian" State? There has never been one before in history for the simple reason that they are are an invented phony people, the trash of the Arab world. That is why their fellow Arabs kill them, expell them and generally isolate them from polite Arab society in the form of "refugee" camps. So much for brotherhood. They were Egyptians and Jordanians on June 6th 1967 and should be expelled back to their "countrymen". There already 21 Arab States there is no need for a worthless 22nd one to join the rest of wasted ten per cent of the worlds landmass.

Do you demand that the Arabs quit Kurdistan? Or indeed end their illegal thousand year occupation of the Middle East and North Africa? Or do you think it's right and proper for Arabs to steal the land from the Jews, Kurds, Copts, Berbers, Tuaregs and many others? When you demand from the Arabs what you demand from the Jews you might be somewhat less full of shit.

The terrorist scum has declared war on Israel and Israel is under no obligation to aid her enemies. And that includes giving them jobs and providing for them. They have the option of surrendering. Killing the enemies leaders is part of war. When the cowardly pigs wear uniforms they might be entitled to some minimal Geneva Convention protections. Until then the cowards who hide behind civilians in mufti should killed on sight as the lawless pirates they are and in full accord with international "law" and the the Geneva Conventions. And we should do the same the Taliban and AQ shit bags in Iraq and Afghanistan.

CubanBob - That's funny. We... (Below threshold)
Chris:

CubanBob - That's funny. We currently use our military to stop illegal Cubans and latin Americans from coming into our country. For some reason you think it was wrong for Egyptians and Jordanians.

Also, using your logic, there is no reason Israel should exist then, if you don't believe Palestine should exist. Israel was carved out of "Palestine". Look at any map produced prior to 1967, when Palestine disappeared form most maps.

Since you bring up Kurdistan, yes it should be its own country. Since we toppled the Sovereign Government, there is no reason Kurdistan shouldn't become independant.

Your racist anti-arab views, show exactly why the rest of the middle east doesn't trust us and most of them hate us.

You make me laugh when you bring up "Geneva Conventions" Since when did Israel start complying with international human rights demands?

As far as being "lefty", I am actually far more "right" than you can ever hope to be.

Chris the only racist is yo... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

Chris the only racist is you. Lets see, Arabs conquer Israel, expell the Jews, a thousand years later the Jews reclaim their land. But the Jews are the land thieves. They the Arabs steal Egypt from the Copts, but the Jews are the land thieves. They steal land from the Berbers and Tuaregs but the Jews are the land thieves. They expelled the same number of Jews from the Arab occupied world as the so called "Palestinians" but the Jews are the land thieves. It's time to demand an end the illegal Arab occupation of Zion. Do you demand that the Arabs quit all the lands they have aquired by force and return to Arabia?

Have you demanded the the US pressure Iraq to let Kurdistan go? Have you demanded the same of Syria, Iran or Turkey? Guess not since to you only Jews are land thieves.

Egypt blockaded Israel and precipitated a war they lost their territory of the Sinai and Gaza. Which incidentally prior to June of 67 Egyptians were using to launch terrorist attacks against Israel.
It's time for Egypt to reclaim their citizens and land in Gaza. There never was an Arab country called "Palestine". There was Egypt and Jordan but no "Palestine". So much for map reading abilities.

Jordan attacked Israel after being warned of the consequences and they lost. But the Jews are the land thieves.

Do you demand Russia give up Konigsberg? Poland captured German land? Do you demand that Germans be allowed to return to their former lands in eastern Europe?

No Chris, your no righty, just a lefty of the fascist anti-Semite variety, you can never reply to a fact, only screech slurs, because you can't refute the facts.

Israel, a country 290 miles long and 85 miles wide and a world leader in science, medicine and technology with all of 5 million Jews. The Arab world, 21 countries, 400 million population and 10 per cent of the world's landmass. And what is the Arab world's indigenous contribution to humanity?
Cotton, dates, Koran's, olive oil, rugs, sardines and terrorists.
Cuba fucked up as it is under Fidel and the communist still contributes more in the way of science and medicine than the entire Arab world.

The Geneva Convention applies to signatory States.
AQ, the Taliban and Hezbollah are not signatory states. The conventions allow for summary execution of illegal combatants such as AQ, Hezbollah and the Taliban. The only laughable comments are your ignorant posts and your carrying water for terrorist scum.


CubanBob- You're killing m... (Below threshold)
Chris:

CubanBob- You're killing me!! lmao

First, you can't address anything I say, you make up shit I didn't say and then you fall back on the "your a racist", when you have lost an argument. I never said Jews "stole" anything.

Why don't you go back 3000 years and tell me who was in the region prior to what became Israel?

Hint: They weren't the Jews.

If you don't believe me, pick up any Bible and read the story of Moses. Who did they have to conquer for the "promised land"?

Also, here's a short list of arab contributions. The worlds first mono-theiastic religion. Zoroastrianism! If you are Jewish, Christian or Muslim, you can thank them for believing in ONE god. Next we have the first alphabet, astronomy, the numeral system we currently use. Let's see, the worlds first light house, the pyramids, worlds first paper. Then there is Algebra, as we know it, famous contributions to physics, medicine and mathmatics, not to mention music, poetry and calligraphy. Here are just a few words we use in english that are derived from arabic, Algebra, Algorism, Algorithm, Almanac, Azimuth, Cipher, Nadir, Sine, Zenith, Zero.

Cuba contributes to the world in science and medicine? In what way? Using herbs and weeds as substitutes for modern pharmaceuticals?

Look, I've been to Cuba and the Middle East and there is no comparison. The Cuban's are cave people compared to the Middle East. The only thing I would say that Cuba is number one in the world at producing, is prostitutes. Cuba definiteley has the hottest and cleanest "puta's" in the world.

Chris your idiocy is mind b... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

Chris your idiocy is mind blowing!
A few of your howlers such as zero, algorisms etc are are Arabic derived words of Hindu concepts brought back by Arab traders from India. Not Arab inventions or discoveries. The others you refer to were from the Sumerians, Assyrians, Babylonians among others who had one thing in common: they were not Arabs.
Papyrus and pyramids to you refer to are ancient Egyptian, that is the present day Copts, not Arabs, the ones who stole Egypt from the Copts and the Ptolemaic Greeks. Zoroastrianism is a Persian, not Arabic religion. The Philistines to who you refer were not Arabs. Palestine derives from the Roman word for Philistine, which Rome used to refer to what was Israel after the Romans conquered Israel.
Cuba is indeed a shit house thanks to Fidel but she still has outclassed every Arab country in the world in scientific and medical achievements. Hint: biotechnology and vaccines as opposed to flying carpets.
Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq and the North Africa were populated by a large number of peoples in antiquity but not by Arabs.

From the way you carry one about Arabs, you shouldn't be criticizing Cuban putas while spreading your butt cheeks for Mo the camel jockey.
Every single thing you credit to Arabs is entirely wrong.

Bob-You are as bad... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Bob-

You are as bad as people that deny the holocaust existed.

Modern science and mathmatics wouldn't fucking exist without arabic numerals, the invention of the zero, negative numbers, fractions and the completion of Algebra. Moreover, the Sextant was invented by Arabs, by improving upon the astrolabe. What you incorrectly credit to the Assyrians, is actually credited to the Harranians, who lived in Assyria but where not Assyrians.

If you want to get really technical, both Jews and Arabs are really Semites. Further, Hebrew and Arabic are Semetic languages. To deny that Ancient Egyptions and the other ancient peoples are not arab is factually incorrect. Modern Arabs are a melting pot of the ancient civilizations. Unless you are going to try and argue that arab's didn't exist until 600AD?

Yes, Zoroastrianism was founded in Persia. That's very good! However, ancient Zoroaster symbols have been found as far east as modern Syria. How the fuck do you think Abraham invented Judaism? You think he came up with the "one god" concept on his own? Arab trader's brought the concept west 7000 years ago.

Lastly, I didn't criticize Cuban puta's, I celebrated them! I said the were the best in the fuckng world!! Pay attention!

I also don't want to get into a discussion about the Cuban people. I think they are the most resilient, industrious and hardworking people I have ever seen. Especially, in light of the overwhelming hardships they are subjected to on a daily basis. Communism is insidious. It rips the heart and ambition out of the strongest of people.




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