« Friday Afternoon Link Fiesta | Main | Wizbang Podcast #35 is up »

Nagin vs. Rudy

I've see a lot of stories lately about how wonderful Rudy Giuliani handled the aftermath of 9/11 vs Nagin rebuilding New Orleans. Lorie blogged about it below.

I have to wonder if these people have any understanding of proportions. (sorry Lorie)

Let's look at the two events.

In New York, a seven square block area of the city was damaged including 2 mammoth buildings falling down. What did Rudy manage to accomplish in the aftermath? He got heavy equipment to come in and haul away the debris. And that took 9 months.

That's it. No rebuilding of critical infrastructure, no restoration of power to a whole city, no struggling for a year just to return potable water to a city... No rebuilding effort of any type. Just hauling away debris... and that took 9 months. For this he is a Republican Demigod.

- Oh and he made some good speeches.

In New Orleans, the Corps of Engineers destroyed an entire city.

150,000 homes were destroyed and thousands more businesses. Consider this.... 350,000 automobiles were flooded and had to be hauled away... If you placed all the cars destroyed in New Orleans end to end they would reach from the broken 17th street canal floodwall all the way to New York's ground zero. (go head, do the math)

Then people all around the nation bash Nagin and act like he had that special city rebuilding magic wand but was too stupid to put batteries in it for 12 months. Get real.


Nagin can be faulted for any number for any number of things. But he was dead right in his recent remarks. Everyone is praising Rudy and New York for hauling away some concrete -in 9 months- but damning Nagin and New Orleans for not rebuilding an entire city in just 3 months more. Frankly, it's stupid.

Let's see Rudy rebuild a city of a million people in 12 months THEN we can make comparisons.

But you want to change the topic and talk about the rescue effort? OK.

Let's review, New York had emergency crews from several states who had nice pretty highways to drive on so they could lend a hand. In New York, the first responders had homes to go to so they could recover and work their next shift.

In New Orleans first responders themselves were under 8 feet of water. 80% of the police in New Orleans lost their homes.

What is that number in New York? That would be zero.

Comparing the two is simply folly. The only real backup the New Orleans first responders had was the Coast Guard who had choppers and the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries who had boats. (BTW as an aside... The LDWF was the unsung hero of the whole event. They did thousands of rescues and never get any ink. I owe them a post... or 12)

By and large the Sept 11 "emergency emergency" (if you will) lasted a few hours. After that it was a mostly an unfruitful recovery effort. In New Orleans the active response went on 24/7 for almost 2 weeks. Again, no comparison.

In New York Rudy and the "incredibly competent" emergency management folks got 343 firemen killed... And a few hundred more emergency responders from the NYPD and other agencies too.

Rudy never had to answer any questions about that. (rightfully so BTW don't get me wrong) But to hold the NYC response as a model of brilliance is letting patriotism blind you to reality. They had more than their share of problems... It's just politically incorrect to mention them so we as a nation have chosen not to.

And let's talk about those speeches Rudy was able to make. Why didn't we see Nagin make those same speeches? For starters, there was no communication in the whole city.

Local authorities couldn't talk to each other much less play to the camera! Rudy looked great standing there behind the podium in nice fresh clothes all shaved and bathed speaking on national T.V. I'm glad he had a nice clean studio he could retreat to.

In New Orleans people were trying to get food and water - oh and trying not to drown.

When Mayor Nagin could get thru to a T.V. camera, he used it to ask regular citizens with boats to meet him at a Sam's Club parking lot so they could go pluck people off rooftops. He was a little too busy to do Larry King and David Letterman.

I'm not defending Nagin in any way.

What I am doing is explaining that the scope of the events was too dissimilar (and asymmetrical) for them to be compared in any meaningful way.

(and read the postscript before you comment)



Postscript: Yes, I fully expect to be called every name in the book over this post. Get over it. I know, I know I've broken some taboos by daring to question NYC's response. So sue me.

Nagin was under a very harsh (cough partisan cough) spotlight even before the storm arrived. Rudy got mountains of patriotic sympathy. If the two men were in each other's cities I doubt history would have changed much.

9/11 (whether you like it or not) was child's play compared to the Corps flooding New Orleans. If you think Rudy making a few good speeches and getting some concrete hauled away was worth him being President then don't let me rain on your parade with facts and reason.

But don't try to convince me that Nagin is to be damned for not rebulding a major city in 12 months but Rudy should be praised for gettiing the debris hauled away in 9 months.

I just not buying it.

P.S. Don't bother mention the evacuation.

P. P. S. If anyone wants to talk about the 60 Minutes quote, you'd be well served watching the video to get the context. He was making the point that the PUBLIC streets were clear but that they city could not go on private land w/o permission. When the reporter beat him up for not clearing the private land, Nagin compared the rebuiding efforts. And he had a point.

Lorie adds:I am sorry I don't have time to respond to this post point by point right now, but I did want to say that Paul has more knowledge of Katrina than anyone I know, possibly of anyone in the entire blogosphere, and I have no dispute with him over the facts on the ground in New Orleans over the past year. When he asks whether others commenting on Katrina have a clue what they are talking about, well, we probably don't, especially so far as the specifics go. What we do all have, though, is a view of the event that is not shaded so much by personal experience and intimate knowledge, but of what the perceptions are of how well each mayor inspired those working under them, and the public in general. In politics, perceptions are, unfortunately, as important as reality. Actually, often they are more important than reality.

I do know that after 9/11 Giuliani was judged (be it fairly as I contend or unfairly as Paul does) to have done an excellent job, more than anything, calming the fears of a nation. Paul talked about how much greater an area was affected by Katrina. That is physical. 9/11 was every bit as much a psychological attack, as it was a physical one, and it was on the entire country. I live in North Carolina and we have had some pretty nasty hurricanes hit us, but obviously nothing like Katrina. After Katrina, though, I was not consumed by fear that we might be hit next. When those planes hit those towers, though, the thought that other attacks might soon follow on one of the many military bases in my area was real, and remains so to this day when I hear a plane buzz over my house much lower than usual. During the 9/11 recovery I remember very real fears that additional attacks could be coming at any time.

There were many differences between the two challenges. I might be wrong, but I don't recall getting around the clock reports letting us know that 9/11 attacks were on the way. I do seem to remember some advance warning that Katrina was coming, although it was not clear exactly where she would hit.

Those speeches that were made after 9/11 can be ridiculed by some, but they were incredibly important. I guess this goes back to the perception thing, but sometimes perceptions have very real consequences. Nagin cursing the government and making some of the outrageous statements he did making excuses for looters, etc., are separate from the reality of whatever he accomplished (or did not accomplish) on the ground. Paul points out that Nagin was not able to communicate freely, and I do not doubt that, but Nagin did make it to the microphone enough to sow seeds of panic and confusion. Maybe Rudy would have done the same, in Nagin's situation, although that is something I am not buying. .Rudy calmed the nation by having a take charge style that made most feel like he had things under control, to the extent they could be. If 9/11 was an easier challenge, as Paul believes, he may be right, although his memory of 9/11 is evidently much different than mine. But even if that is so, it does not change the perception of the public of the two mayors' responses to the those challenges. I contend that the perceptions that many of those in the nation have will do more to help Giuliani's presidential aspirations than hinder them. I disagree with Paul in that I think those perceptions were largely deserved.

Paul Replies:I'm not really sure how to respond. The comparison is obviously fatally flawed.

If some people think Rudy's speech making ability is worthy of putting in the oval office so be it. (Assuming he runs yada yada yada...) I may or might not vote for him... But if I do, his media blitz after 9/11 will be but a small factor. Did he handle it well? Sure. Obviously. Does he deserve the roses presently being thrown at his feet? Not to me but YMMV


Kevin adds (11:10PM): Wizbang is moving to a new server tonight. This means that any comments you leave in this thread tonight will be lost. You can keep commenting, but they won't be in the comment section when you come looking again tomorrow...


TrackBack

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Nagin vs. Rudy:

» Word Around the Net linked with NAGIN AGAIN

Comments (68)

I’m not defending Nagin ... (Below threshold)
Nahanni:

I’m not defending Nagin in any way.

Could've fooled me.

Paul,

I think most are upset that Nagin called the site of the WTC "just a hole in the ground". I am sure he would get upset if someone called NOLA "just a swamp".

I know better then to expect NOLA to be rebuilt in 12 months. Perhaps you should tell Nagin that. He seems to expect the federal government to go in, wave a magic wand and *presto*-it is all cleaned up and totally rebuilt.

From the get-go he has lobbed race cards and excuses. He was all bent out of shape about Mexican workers coming for the reconstruction jobs and the "Hispanification of New Orleans". He has constantly stated that everything concerning the reconstruction of NOLA is race based-from his "chocolate city" remarks to his recent "blame whitey" remarks because NOLA isn't completely rebuilt by now. It is Nagin who has the unrealistic expectations, not us.

Now...

Only a fool will think that NOLA will ever be the same as it was a year ago. The harsh reality is that the New Orleans you and I knew is dead. Even if it is rebuilt it will never be the same.

It is the people (both good and bad) that make a city what it is and most of the people who evacuated are not going to go back there. Some are traumatized and coould not handle living with the memories, some have had enough of hurricanes and do not want to live within 500 miles of the coast anymore, some simply do not want to live below sea level knowing what can happen, some for finacial reasons, some because they have cut their losses and started a new life where they are now.

Sure, new people will move there for the opprotunities presented and if I were to place a wager NOLA in ten years will not be a "chocloate city", it will be a "flan city" where spanish will be heard more then french.

Paul,Spot on! No d... (Below threshold)
ReadyFirst:

Paul,

Spot on! No defender of Nagin am I as I think he was the main person to blame for the Katrina debacle but when I saw his comments on Drudge my first reaction was so what. To have a reporter nitpicking as to why he had not rebuilt the city yet was naive and would be frustrating for anyone, regardless of political persuasion. His off the cuff comment was probably out of exasperation and completely understandable.

Paul, ... (Below threshold)
doctorj:


Paul,
I really admire your tenacity. I am afraid you are talking to fanatics though. La,la,la,la, They don't want to hear a thing. They don't care to hear the truth. They won't even listen to the eye witnesses like you and me because it disturbs their ideas of what America is. It disturbs us too, but we know the truth because we lived it. You were right in an earlier post. I don't want to be part of a conservative party that embraces lies because it fits their party line. I always thought conservative philosophy was based in reason. You identify a problem and you fix it. Not here. They see a problem and spin it to fit the party line. Where is reason in that?
As to Guiliani, I am willing to listen to him. He contacted the city and asked if there was anything he could do to help. He said he realized there was no comparison between what happened in NYC and NOLA. The firemen from NYC that came here to help us said there was no comparison to what they went through and the NOFD went through. They had homes to go home to. Their families were safe. NOFD and NOPD had no such luxury. Many still are living in trailers as are many New Orleanians. All you are going to hear here is that the 300 year old city is in a flood plain (as is Washington DC and London) and we have dark (OH MY GOD!) people in New Orleans so they must be slovenly and no good. This is a real eye opener to me for I have lived with people from different ethnicities my whole life. But to people in much of America, this seems to be a scary thing. They are the OTHER. They are DIFFERENT. (Another OH MY GOD!) It really is sad and something I don't want to be a part of. I thank God every day I grew up in such a wonderful, fascinating and complex city. The naysayers on this board will never know what they missed.
As to Nagin, I really think he is mentally messed up like many in the city. We need a leader. He is definitely lacking in that ability. I don't think he is the anti-Christ, just a guy over his head in a situation where most people would be over their head.

When you look at sheer amou... (Below threshold)
Tony:

When you look at sheer amount of material and infrastructure destroyed, New Orleans wins hands down. On that point, nobody can disagree. Nagin just has a bad habit and good history of saying stupid/inappropriate things to make his points.

And I think the thing for everybody to think about is that things like big buildings in large cities, or even major portions of cities themselves, don't sprout up in no time. I'd say that both the WTC site and New Orleans will be rebuilt/repaired/revamped in the natural time it takes to do so for each. To the ADD-riddled Americans that may read this:these tasks won't be wrapped up in a nifty little package like you see on a TV show.
According to this site (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/wtc1.html), the WTC planning by the city began in 1962, and the first tower was opened in 1970, and the other in 1972. That's 10 years from initial city engagement to final fruition. Keep that in mind everybody!!! New Orleans will be an even bigger endeavor.

I thought you quit blogging... (Below threshold)
magnetism87:

I thought you quit blogging? Couldn't stay away?

DoctorJ said it: There's no... (Below threshold)

DoctorJ said it: There's no comparison. It's apples and oranges, squid and Pontiacs.

Each mayor faced different and difficult challenges. Each dealth with them (or not) to his best ability.

People tend to think Guiliani did a good job and that Nagin didn't. Maybe that's just East Coast PR; maybe that's just a fact.

Paul:"In New Orlea... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

Paul:

"In New Orleans, the Corps of Engineers destroyed an entire city."

Statements like that make the entire rest of your posting, which by the way I tend to agree with, a worthless bunch of crap. The Army Corps of Engineers didn't destroy anything, Katrina did!

You can never appear rational, when you start off sounding irrational.

I think you missed the poin... (Below threshold)
JimK:

I think you missed the point of Nagin's comments AND the people who are criticizing him for them, Paul.

Nagin was making claims about how much had been accomplished, and a reporter pointed at a visible piece of evidence that refuted the claim, whereupon Nagin attacked the NYC effort for no goddamned reason whatsoever.

Nagin's criticizing the REBUILDING by dismissively and vitriolically calling Ground Zero "a hole in the ground" (which it is, but no need to be an asshole about it) and trying to use that to defend his own incompetence.

He's not talking about the cleanup of GZ. He himself compaired REBUILDING to CLEANUP. It was a false comparison from the start, and more evidence that Chocolate Cityboy doesn't know his ass from his elbow. You're compounding the false comparison and taking it further out to left field.

Nagin wasn't properly comparing cleanup to cleanup. He was incorrectly trying to use the lack of rebuilding the GZ site to defend the lack of cleanup...not rebuilding, but clearing of debris, in New Orleans.

Well said doctorj, and your... (Below threshold)

Well said doctorj, and your analysis on the way America views the two tragedies is right on.Most in middle America see Nawlins as some exotic outpost, with a funny culture, and people, -black and white- who are different. On the other hand, New York is really America's capitol and by default, Guilliani was made the hero after 911, even though I have yet to see just what he did that was so outstanding.

BTW USMC, Paul's comments about the Army Corp of Engineers is not outrageous. Especially when they ADMITTED that they f#@%@d up the levees that they were charged to build.
We can sit here and point all the fingers in the world, but the bottom line is, if the levees had held up, we would not have had a disaster of this magnitude. And yes, Nagin, like so many people in the "big easy", needs counseling big time!

As a MAYOR OF A CITY you ar... (Below threshold)
ama055131:

As a MAYOR OF A CITY you are suppose to know every
nook and cranny of your city, further if you have 3 to 7 days to prepare your city for a disaster
and you don t get your ducks in a row until it was to late you don t deserve to throw stones at
someone else to save your hide.

Living in here in south Florida we have seen our share of storms, and when a storm approachs we make sure that the elderly, homeless people are evacuated from the keys and low lying areas.

The best example is the free shuttle service for all the keys.

Those in hospitals are flown to other parts of the state.
This was a complete break down from Mayor to Gov.

USMC Pilot, you have exactl... (Below threshold)
Paul:

USMC Pilot, you have exactly zero clue what you are talking about. Search our archive for Corps Katrina and get back to me.

Here's a hint... The Corps admitted they flooded New Orleans not Katrina. Get some knowledge and come back to why don't ya. Sigh.

---------------

As a MAYOR OF A CITY you are suppose to know every
nook and cranny of your city, further if you have 3 to 7 days to prepare your city for a disaster
and you don t get your ducks in a row until it was to late you don t deserve to throw stones at
someone else to save your hide.

Sigh... Stupidity on parade. We had about 48 hours notice, not 7 days.

Buy a clue.

-----------------

Nahanni, well, you're still just a clueless idiot.

Nagin - A poor leader way ... (Below threshold)
Big D:

Nagin - A poor leader way over his head. But he shouldn't be damned because NOLA hasn't been fixed yet. The problem is monumental. He should be damned for the piss-poor planning, poor leadership, and big mouth he has displayed since.

What destroyed NOLA was a culture of corruption, of lies, of living for the moment. Everyone loved the city the same way they "loved" a cheap hooker. Sorry NOLA, but your city had a reputation of corruption a mile long before the hurricane hit. Nothing since has changed by the excuses.

Giuliani - overrated, but so what? He did a good job after 9/11, and was a great mayor even before the disaster. And by the by - hauling away the remains of the trade center was also a monumental task. I don't see how running down Giuliani makes Nagin, or anyone else look better. Just petty.

NOLA lovers - guess what? Race doesn't have a thing to do with how people feel about NOLA. Neither does whether or not someone ever had the joyous NOLA "experience". Comments like that simply illustrate your own prejudices, your own racism. Running down others doesn't make you look better.

What does matter is leadership. NOLA has to care enough about their city to rebuild it, to protect it. If you don't, why should I care what happens to it? When Nagin got re-elected I said the hell with NOLA. If you re-elect an obvious incompetent, then it shows you don't really care that much about your city after all.

Let me ask you this. What if Nagin used his mouth to loudly and repeatedly provide a laundry list of what NOLA needs? Of what the rest of us can do to help? Of encouragement and thanks?

I can tell you. He'd seem a lot more like Giuliani and less like a fool.


I think you missed the p... (Below threshold)
Paul:

I think you missed the point of Nagin's comments AND the people who are criticizing him for them, Paul.

Nagin was making claims about how much had been accomplished, and a reporter pointed at a visible piece of evidence that refuted the claim, whereupon Nagin attacked the NYC effort for no goddamned reason whatsoever.

Have you watched the video??? I didn't think so.

Don't try to bullshit me.

Go watch the video before you embarrass yourself. Again.

The difference in scale bet... (Below threshold)
eman:

The difference in scale between hurricane damage and terrorist attacks is not the point. The events were very different in nature, but they both tested two mayors of important cities. Hurricane Katrina did not attack New Orleans. It was a storm. New York was attacked. In fact, all of the US was the target. No one knew if that was it or if more waves of attacks were coming. Rudy helped New York and the rest of the country weather the attacks and recover. Who was inspired by Nagin? Who drew courage from him? Who learned leadership from him? Nagin is a corrupt, incompetant fool. What he says is not important.

"If you placed all the cars... (Below threshold)
lurking:

"If you placed all the cars destroyed in New Orleans end to end they would reach from the broken 17th street canal floodwall all the way to New York’s ground zero."

...the only reason there were enough destroyed cars to stretch from NO to NYC is because Nagin didn't get the people to use them to evacuate themselves from the city...now he gets a break because it is a bigger job to clean them up?

Nagin may need some defende... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Nagin may need some defenders if the people of NY and other Yankee's quit visiting the sin din of N.O. Can he feed the population his 'chocolate city'?

The propaganda has restarted to CYA Nagin and the most inept governor in history. There was enough supplies and man power on standby to rescue the entire south but they were blocked by stupidity in La. Everyone else (except La)effected seems to be doing well and on the way to recovery. Wonder if and when he's going to get caught with his hand in the Kitty,or did he take a humvee and go retrieve all of the evidence.

DoctorJ said it: There's... (Below threshold)
wilky:

DoctorJ said it: There's no comparison. It's apples and oranges, squid and Pontiacs.

I gotta second this.

However, the big difference to me was, New York got hit out of the blue and Giuliani got down to business. He didn't whine and complain about the lack of fed help(though he may have behind the scenes). New Orleans had advance warning, and Nagin did. Giuliani acted more like a leader and Nagin did not. I was more inclined to help the rest of the region who DIDN'T display the woe is me and why aren't I getting more and faster help from the rest of you people attitude. But thats just me.

Apples and oranges.<p... (Below threshold)

Apples and oranges.

That said, more people died on 9/11, murdered, than Katrina killed. Many of the Katrina deaths were totally preventable if Nagin and Blanco had followed their pre-existing plans.

The Corps may have flooded NOLA, but they killed no one. The personal choices made by some of the residents, and the decisions by politicians not to follow their plans did that. And, one could argue, the Corps did exactly what the politicians told it to do. It's been a source of pork and a political pawn for decades and the people of NOLA reaped the results. And until a year ago, the majority of the people of New Orleans were content with those conditions.

The disaster that struck New Orleans demonstrates one great truth. Don't count on the government.

Rudy is an icon. Whether or not he was right or wrong during the murders on 9/11, his was the calm and serious voice everyone in the United State heard. On 9/10 he was an SOB. On 9/12 he could have been elected Pope. In a narrow set of circumstances, he met a need the people had for a leader. He inspired us all at a time when we needed inspiration.

Nagin and Blanco cannot say that. Not ever.

So Paul - if Katrina hadn'... (Below threshold)
Big D:

So Paul - if Katrina hadn't come along NOLA would have flooded anyway. since the Corps "caused" the flooding? Uh-huh.

And, of course, no one in NOLA has any responsibility whasoever for protecting their own city?

And another thing - Paul - you might know NOLA and Katrina, but I suspect you are as dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to enginnering, construction, demolition, or emergency response. Your comments suggest as much. Don't be mad - most people don't understand these issues any better than you do.

Look, what is pissing the rest of us off is not whether or not the city has been re-built, but this mindless whinning blame game by everyone in NOLA.

To illustrate. My neighbor (Mr. Nagin) puts a shitty cheap roof on his house. The wind blows off his shingles.

Mr. Nagin then starts in. It was the contractor. It was the goverment. It was me for being an uncaring racist and not jumping up to help him immediately. I could've/would've/ should've saved his roof for him. Waaaahhh.

Meanwhile, down the street, Mr. Guliani is busy tacking back up his shingles. I decide to go by and help. He says "thanks bud." I feel good.

Paul - you getting any of this?


You are mixing apples and o... (Below threshold)
Craig:

You are mixing apples and oranges. New York was hit out of the blue in a murderous terrorist attack. New Orleans found itself under water in an utterly predictable natural disaster. Like an earthquake in California it was known that this would happen, yet hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars alloted over decades to Louisiana for flood control projects found their way into the pockets of corrupt local politicians and their pet projects.

Frankly, New Orleans was a damp dump before Katrina and I wonder why anybody in their right mind would want to rebuild such a thing. Maybe people in Houston would . I'm sure they are ready return the human crime wave back to where it came from.

Paul if you are going to te... (Below threshold)
ama055131:

Paul if you are going to tell me you only had 48hrs I guess you just did not bother taking the advice from every weather broadcaster in the US.
the national hurrcanne center gives you a 3-7 day window.
Even if you say u had 48 hrs all the school buses
that was at their disposal ( which we here in florida use to evacuate all the time) in a 24hr period do realize how many people could have left.


THE MAYOR AND THE GOV. ARE RESPONIBLE !!!!!

So Paul - if Katrina had... (Below threshold)
Paul:

So Paul - if Katrina hadn't come along NOLA would have flooded anyway. since the Corps "caused" the flooding? Uh-huh.

Actually yes. You're making me tip my hand. Come back Monday I have a post you'll be intersted in... New Orleans was going to flood with out without Katrina. In months not years. The levee broke under basically zero load.

Come back Monday.

And another thing - Paul - you might know NOLA and Katrina, but I suspect you are as dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to enginnering, construction, demolition, or emergency response. Your comments suggest as much.

Well, I had 1 engineering professor who would have agreed but I managed to fool the rest.

Another hint for you... The Corps admitted the flooded New Orleans not Katrina.

You might want to follow this link and come back when you're a litte more knowledge.

Are you getting any of this?

Paul if you are going to te... (Below threshold)
ama055131:

Paul if you are going to tell me you only had 48hrs I guess you just did not bother taking the advice from every weather broadcaster in the US.
the national hurrcanne center gives you a 3-7 day window.
Even if you say u had 48 hrs all the school buses
that was at their disposal ( which we here in florida use to evacuate all the time) in a 24hr period do realize how many people could have left.


THE MAYOR AND THE GOV. ARE RESPONSIBLE !!!!!

So Paul - if Katrina had... (Below threshold)
Paul:

So Paul - if Katrina hadn't come along NOLA would have flooded anyway. since the Corps "caused" the flooding? Uh-huh.

Actually yes. You're making me tip my hand. Come back Monday I have a post you'll be intersted in... New Orleans was going to flood with out without Katrina. In months not years. The levee broke under basically zero load.

Come back Monday.

And another thing - Paul - you might know NOLA and Katrina, but I suspect you are as dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to enginnering, construction, demolition, or emergency response. Your comments suggest as much.

Well, I had 1 engineering professor who would have agreed but I managed to fool the rest.

Another hint for you... The Corps admitted the flooded New Orleans not Katrina.

You might want to follow this link and come back when you're a litte more knowledge.

Are you getting any of this?

Wilky and Big D describe pe... (Below threshold)
al:

Wilky and Big D describe perfectly what bothers a lot of people about NOLA. Nagin has been nothing but a whiny ass since Katrina hit. Whine, complain, blame - thats all he's done. NOLA is messed up and will take years to rebuild - no intelligent person will disagree but Nagin needs to be acting like a leader and he has no clue what leadership is.

Guiliani acted like a leader - before and after 9/11.

Hopefully NOLA will get rebuilt and the folks that migrated north will return so that the crime rates that went up in places like Atlanta, Nashville, and Houston will go down.

Paul if you are going to... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Paul if you are going to tell me you only had 48hrs I guess you just did not bother taking the advice from every weather broadcaster in the US.
the national hurrcanne center gives you a 3-7 day window.

Sigh... Stupid and unwilling to learn -- a dangerous combo.

Friday afternoon the Nationa Hurricane Center was predicting it would hit Florida. By Friday night they revised it to the east 150 miles. By Sunday night the game was over.

Now please.... I've not deleted anyone from this thread for being stupid. Don't be the first.

But I'm glad the stupid poeple who have no clue are so vocal in blaming Nagin. It so proves my point.

Is it really necessary for ... (Below threshold)
JimK:

Is it really necessary for you to be such an asshole in replying?

The piece for 60 minutes hasn't aired yet, so I'm not sure where we're supposed to watch this video you say I need to watch. I'm getting my information here.

On a tour of the decimated Ninth Ward, Nagin tells Pitts the city has removed most of the debris from public property and it’s mainly private land that’s still affected – areas that can’t be cleaned without the owners' permission. But when Pitts points to flood-damaged cars in the street and a house washed partially into the street, the mayor shoots back. "That’s alright. You guys in New York can’t get a hole in the ground fixed and it’s five years later. So let’s be fair."

My point still stands. Nagin criticized the REBUILDING, and people are criticizing him for CLEANUP. Two different animals. Nagin made a false comparison. Apples and engine blocks.

But before any rebuilding can take place, the clean-up and restoration of the city’s infrastructure must be complete and it will be Mayor Nagin, recently re-elected, who leads the efforts.

Cleanup. Rebuilding. Two different things.

Paul maybe you do too much ... (Below threshold)
ama055131:

Paul maybe you do too much blogging if you only realized 48hrs that a storm has heading towards you while every weather forecaster had dire predictions for days in advance.
You also know that the national hurrcane center
gives you a 3-7 day forcast.


OK I'm done. Deleted You're a moron.

>Wilky and Big D describe p... (Below threshold)
Paul:

>Wilky and Big D describe perfectly what bothers a lot of people about NOLA. Nagin has been nothing but a whiny ass since Katrina hit. Whine, complain, blame - thats all he's done.

Al have you ever -even for a second- considered the very real possibility that the federal response might have been deplorable and he's had the nerve to say it.

Something for you to consider.

Why the comparison to Rudy ... (Below threshold)
MayBee:

Why the comparison to Rudy Giuliani at all? The attacks happened the day the mayoral vote was to have taken place, and even though it was delayed, he was out of office by April 1.
Shouldn't the comparison be to Bloomberg, if there is to be one? Frankly, I think Nagin's comment is defensible withoug placing a 5-year NY rebuilding problem on a man that's been out of office for 4.5 years.

I actually think Nagin made a fair point. It is going to take years to rebuild NO, and politics get in the way. Just as they do for rebuilding the WTC site.

Al have you ever -... (Below threshold)
JimK:
Al have you ever -even for a second- considered the very real possibility that the federal response might have been deplorable and he's had the nerve to say it.

At what point does he cowboy up and get to fucking work, though? How many times can one cry "BUT THE FEDS!" ???

OK. Fed response sucked. That was last year. This is now.

> Is it really necessary fo... (Below threshold)
Paul:

> Is it really necessary for you to be such an asshole in replying?

Is it for you?

----------

>The piece for 60 minutes hasn't aired yet, so I'm not sure where we're supposed to watch this video you say I need to watch.

It's called the CBS website. sigh.

I even asked in the original post to watch it before you commented on it.

I saw the video and you didn't but you're telling me what was on the video.

Guess it really is me being the asshole.

Sigh.

Paul, I gave you the link t... (Below threshold)
JimK:

Paul, I gave you the link that explicitly describes the moment in question. Stop being an ass and pay attention to the discussion at hand.


One of is certainly embarassing himself here. I'll leave it to others to decide who that is.

Jim...You didn't w... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Jim...

You didn't watch the video but you tell me what was on it... Then call me an ass.

Sigh.

Another brain child.

The link I posted has a cli... (Below threshold)
JimK:

The link I posted has a clip of Nagin on 60 minutes. I watched it. You have to watch an ad, then a clip, then another ad, and then they address the "hole in the ground" issue.

How does that video in any way contradict what I said? Ray Nagin compared REBUILDING the twin towers site with cleaning up debris in the streets of New Orleans.

It's a false comparison. There's no arguing with that, it's obvious on its face.

If there's another clip to be watched, instead of being an asshole, how about you just link the damned thing?

The link I posted has a cli... (Below threshold)
JimK:

The link I posted has a clip of Nagin on 60 minutes. I watched it. You have to watch an ad, then a clip, then another ad, and then they address the "hole in the ground" issue.

How does that video in any way contradict what I said? Ray Nagin compared REBUILDING the twin towers site with cleaning up debris in the streets of New Orleans.

It's a false comparison. There's no arguing with that, it's obvious on its face.

If there's another clip to be watched, instead of being an asshole, how about you just link the damned thing?

How does that video in a... (Below threshold)
Paul:

How does that video in any way contradict what I said? Ray Nagin compared REBUILDING the twin towers site with cleaning up debris in the streets of New Orleans.

You need to watch it again I guess, because you got it wrong.

Jim as I said in the first post...
==============
P. P. S. If anyone wants to talk about the 60 Minutes quote, you'd be well served watching the video to get the context. He was making the point that the PUBLIC streets were clear but that they city could not go on private land w/o permission. When the reporter beat him up for not clearing the private land, Nagin compared the rebuiding efforts. And he had a point.

==============

Now who mischaracterized it, me or you?

Sigh

The reporter pointed to deb... (Below threshold)
JimK:

The reporter pointed to debris IN THE STREET.

Paul, you're wrong. Admit it.

I can't link the damn thing... (Below threshold)
Paul:

I can't link the damn thing or I would but you got the right vid.... You just heard what you wanted to hear and not what was said.

"But when Pitts points t... (Below threshold)
JimK:

"But when Pitts points to flood-damaged cars in the street and a house washed partially into the street, the mayor shoots back. "That’s alright. You guys in New York can’t get a hole in the ground fixed and it’s five years later. So let’s be fair.""

Go ahead. tell me again how I got that wrong.

Jim... Watch it again... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Jim... Watch it again

You can dice it up however ... (Below threshold)

You can dice it up however you want, but the simple reality is that Nagin is a corrupt fool, the epitome of Louisiana politics, while Giuliani's mayorship was widely successful in turning around a city that was heading in a downward spiral. While direct comparisons between the aftermaths of Katrina and 9/11 are rather silly, we shouldn't lose sight of those facts.

Believe it or not, NO is hardly the only place hit by hurricanes. We get battered in FL all the time. Ivan devastated my area at a time when the rest of the state was also being pounded by several other hurricanes. We don't whine about all our troubles and blame them on everyone else, we get to work on fixing them; then again, we actually bother ourselves with a little preparation.

You also know that the n... (Below threshold)

You also know that the national hurrcane center gives you a 3-7 day forcast.

Complete, utter bullshit. No hurricane can be plotted a week in advance. All there are are "maybes" until--if you're really lucky-- about two days before one hits. And you don't evacuate on "maybe" because every false evacuaton leads to people staying behind the next time, not taking it seriously when they need to.

Jim, from watching the vide... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Jim, from watching the video I don't see how the text fits.

But I'll be generous. Let's assume for the sake of arument that there is a car in the public street. (the house they can't move unless it is deemed a public saftey hazard)

What does one freaking car in the steert mean? (even if the text is on and the video is cut funny)

Good grief it took NYC 9 months to clean up 7 blocks... Don't you understand an area the size of Great Britian might take a bit longer?

I can watch it 500 times. ... (Below threshold)
JimK:

I can watch it 500 times. Nothing changes. There was debris IN THE STREET, not on private land and Nagin lashed out at NYC when that was pointed out. he incorrectly compared removing rubble to rebuilding the tower site.

Plain as day. You refuse to admit when you're wrong, Paul, we all know that...but everyone else in the free frigging world can see this plainly. And with that, I bid you a good evening. I've clearly and overwhelmingly made my point with irrefutable evidence. I'll not devolve into an endess repetition to try to get the last word in.

Paul deleted my comment bec... (Below threshold)
rickinstl:

Paul deleted my comment because I don't agree with his defending the clown Nagin.

I'll take a page from his bood and Siighhh!

Paul deleted my comment bec... (Below threshold)
rickinstl:

Paul deleted my comment because I don't agree with his defending the clown Nagin.

I'll take a page from his book and Siighhh!

John, he/she or it is gone.... (Below threshold)
Paul:

John, he/she or it is gone. Don't bother.

But it could be worse... I read a NEWS REPORT that said something like "dispite weeks of warning the storm was coming, New Orleans still was not prepared."

I was so flabnergasted I didn't even blog it or email her editor.

Sometimes stupidity is just overwheming. Tongiht for example. ;-)

katrina hit florida on the ... (Below threshold)
jack:

katrina hit florida on the dade county line we where warned 3 days before hand. ama was right it is the responsibility of state and local officals
to make sure that people are evacuated. political parties are not involved people are and nagin and blonco are to be blamed

>I can watch it 500 times. ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

>I can watch it 500 times. Nothing changes. There was debris IN THE STREET, not on private land and Nagin lashed out at NYC

That's funny... It's not in the video.

Don't bullshit me.

========

No rickinstl I deleted you because you're an asshole.

Why am I leaving everyone else who disagrees with me and only deleteing you???

Don't bullshit me.

I've been tracking the rebu... (Below threshold)

I've been tracking the rebuilding at Ground Zero as well as the recovery along the Gulf Coast, and there really isn't any comparison between what Nagin and Rudy had to contend with.

There are a couple of issues though with Nagin's comments:
1) Nagin correctly notes that Ground Zero reconstruction is still delayed - although preparatory work is underway to build the Freedom Tower, the transit hub and memorial/museum. Those structures are expected to be built by 2009, though the full site isn't expected to be built out until 2012 at the earliest.

7 WTC is the only permanent structure rebuilt that was destroyed at Ground Zero - and that was done by Silverstein without government interference.

Ground Zero is 16 acres. Add another couple hundred acres if you include the buildings and surrounding area affected by the collapses - damaged buildings and those than were affected by the smoke and debris that infiltrated every pore of buildings surrounding the collapsed towers.

New Orleans is magnitudes larger in terms of the area affected.

2) Nagin likes to point out the bureaucratic delays affecting rebuilding in the Gulf Coast. I'd given Nagin the monkier Whiplash because he reversed his position on where and how to rebuild so many times in those early months that it could make your head spin. If you can't make up your mind and you're in charge, how is anyone else supposed to deal with the situation.

Who needs to blame bureaucratic politics and red tape when the guy in charge in NOLA caused a crisis in confidence all by his lonesome.

3) Nagin has done a poor job of dealing with those issues that are wholly within his control. Rebuilding and restoring infrastructure (including basic services like sanitation, fire, police, and health) has to be a top priority, and thus far it's been spotty. Getting into battles with Gov. Blanco doesn't help matters.

4) Rudy was term limited and could not stay on. People forget that 9/11 was actually primary election day in the City and that election was delayed. After the attacks, there was a move to change the law to let Rudy stay on, but that didn't get very far. No one knows how Rudy would have handled the reconstruction and rebuilding in the four years since he left office (he left in 1Q of 2002).

5) Nagin was reelected by NOLA despite his poor record during and after the hurricane and flood. That's because the alternatives were worse, if that can be imagined.

6) Nagin keeps finding ways to blame others for his failures and shortcomings, which gets back to his battles with Blanco - the slow pace of rebuilding is due to red tape in applying for federal funds. Mississippi, for example, has done a better job applying for housing programs and got their acts together earlier. Perhaps that was due to the fact that Mississippi was less damaged or that Barbour was more connected to the WH than Blanco, but they could have easily contact MS and tapped into how they ran their program to speed the application and disbursements.

7) Nagin continues to face ongoing worries and concerns that the levees and flood control could fail again despite the hundreds of millions spent to rebuild the levees to their prior condition (and who knows just how strong that really is). That leads to businesses and residents choosing to stay away until they know that the situation has stabilized. That affects the tax base and services that can be provided. NYC didn't have the same concerns.

Sigh...... (Below threshold)
rickinstl:

Sigh...

Jim...(just in cas... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Jim...

(just in case)

Follow this link then click "All 60 min videos"

then in the center scroll down and click "Ray Nagin's New Orleans Tour"

That's the one I've been watching. If you're seeing something different, describe/link it.

CBS has recut it like 10 different ways.

The car is (on its side) on private property.

The house has about 3 boards on the curb. "Partailly washed it the street" is overselling it.

Do you see something I don't?

Up here in Michigan we have... (Below threshold)
robert:

Up here in Michigan we have a color man for Tiger's games on radio - a former backup catcher who batted about 150.

Almost daily he gives batting tips to Pudge, a career 300 hitter and one of the top 3 catchers of all time.

Something wrong here.

Which brings me to the press, 60 minutes, Sam Donaldson wanabees and the questions that started this mess. Good grief, if I had been through what Nagin has in the past year, I would not do press interviews unarmed.

The only common denominator is Bush. After 911, both Bush and Giuliani were reassuring and inspirational to a shocked nation. After Katrina, Bush was trashed along with everyone else. Same guy.

The press looks for the story they want, often to fuel ratings. They have not yet owned up to all the BS we were fed during Katrina (Superdome murders, snipers, deadly waters, etc.) nor admitted that their BS Chicken Little bit probably did as much to slow relief as Brown.

Nagin could have turned the tables on the press: "Indeed sir, and while you were reporting baby rapes and shootings by armed gangs and snipers, did you realize that as a result, certain response teams had to wait to be supported by police or guard?"

Further you're lying when y... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Further you're lying when you say he "lashes out"

He says it with a chuckle. That's on the video plain as day.

Don't bullshit me.

Good comments as always law... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Good comments as always lawhawk...

Ironically people want to turn this into a battle where they bash Nagin and I (supposedly) defend him.

I guess they don't know how many times I've trashed him right here on this blog. And frankly, I'm better at trashing him because I know more about him. lololol

Anwyay it was an effrort to compare and contrast the 2 guys. As you say Rudy was headed out the door... I should have mentioned that as another way the comparison is flawed.

good to see you around

P

and you know... seeing you ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

and you know... seeing you around reminds me I must have lost a bookmark or something... I have not swung by your blog in months...

For people who don't know, lawhawk has (or he had) potentially the best blogosphere coverage of the storm for someone who didn't leave anywhere close. I used to go to his blog to get updates on stuff only 60 miles to my east.

Brass tacks.Rudi d... (Below threshold)
Headzero:

Brass tacks.

Rudi didn't blame the Federal government for the attacks and try to shift away resposiblity and take the "I'm a victim" stance. He stood up and took charge. Even if standing up and taking charge is just a nice speech, he did that.

What happened before, during and after Katrina rest on the general incompetence of everyone involved in someone not standing up and saying we can get through this, we need to work together. What happened was everyone stood up and started pointing fingers - and what did that do to fix problems? Nothing.

Action vs inaction, no matter the scale, I think its clear who would have the better outcome.

Had Rudi froze in his tracks in fear and did nothing, not allowed any responders or help from the Federal government in for several days, and Nagin had taken heed, evacuated the city, and got the federal government on the ball ahead of schedule - would not Naggin be hailed as a hero for saving all those lives and being on the ball?

Action vs inaction. History on this is clear. You can argue any aspect, fine tune any theory, play up any conspiracy and point fingers at whoever you want but the facts on the ground are there. Rudi acted right away, Nagins did not. There is no other comparision that needs to be made to the scope of the disaster or the lenght of time or amount of effort needed to recover - whn looking at how the tow men are compared for being the leader during a time of crisis, one acted, the other did not.

Paul, you're not only stupi... (Below threshold)
hotshit:

Paul, you're not only stupid, you're a liar. You deleted my earlier post, too, although you told rickinstl:

"No rickinstl I deleted you because you're an asshole.
Why am I leaving everyone else who disagrees with me and only deleteing you???"

For the benefit of all others, in my deleted post I told you you were a schmuck, and that N.O. voters who voted for thier corrupt mayor deserved exactly what they got from him. So shut the fuck up and stop whining like a chocolate-cated pussy.

In New Orleans, th... (Below threshold)
bains:
In New Orleans, the Corps of Engineers destroyed an entire city.

Thank god there is a federal body we can blame... It would be a shame if we had to take responsibility for our own indecisions/inactions.

Hmmmm.@ Hotshit</p... (Below threshold)
ed:

Hmmmm.

@ Hotshit

You're lucky. Paul et al have completely deleted every single comment I've ever made over the last year.

Oh no! I'm been edited out.

Well I've been meaning to do my own blogging anyways.

Cya all later.

Feeling a bit...peckish, Pa... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Feeling a bit...peckish, Paul?

The core difference between Giuliani and Nagin, all things considered, is that Giuliani responded well and responsibly in press conferences and left the politics out of it. He went out of his way to be clear, practical and realistic.

Nagin, on the other hand, didn't even know what was happening before he started throwing rocks at FEMA, and he hasn't stopped since. It's all Washington's fault. It's Bush's fault. It's FEMA's fault. It's the Corps of Engineers fault. It's whitey's fault. Blanco made it even worse, pointing fingers at Washington between sob sessions in her private office. She blocked federal efforts to send help, complained bitterly about Bush, and generally left the impression she was a helpless puddle of self-pity.

The combined result, interspersed with 'round the clock video feeds from the Sports Arena, sniping, looting and shooting, submerged schoolbuses, rampant speculation from the MSM and AWOL first responders, gun confiscations, and a complete lack of pragmatism from these two public officials was a public relations disaster which appalled millions of us. Facts are facts, and the comparison between 9/11 and NOLA came from Nagin, not me. I've never confused the two.

Your needlessly hostile, Chicken-hawk attitude (never thought I'd use that particular phrase seriously) suggests only one conclusion: You're apparently the only person on earth qualified to comment on the NOLA disaster. The rest of us have no right to an opinion on the subject. We're so unworthy, and so ungrateful. Bullshit.

Maybe you could brush up on your manners a little bit, too, while you're at it.

Never like to be late to a ... (Below threshold)
reno:

Never like to be late to a party, but....

Many, many valid thoughts above. I'll just add that I find the accusation that the "Corps of Engineers destroyed an entire city" a bit over the top. "Mother nature"/God/Karma/etc. at regular intervals proves that all of mankind's efforts are folly compared to the true powers in this world. Making our country, much less the world, safe from every form of conceivable disaster (hurricane, tsunami, earthquake, tornado, fire, etc.) is a non-event. Those of us who live, or have lived, in places frequented by natural disasters know that we're making choices, and we have to live with the consequences of those choices, good, bad, or otherwise. Blaming Katrina on the Corp of Engineers is ridiculous....

I'm curious as to why my co... (Below threshold)
Chris:

I'm curious as to why my comment was deleted.

I may have been critical of your piece and likened it to Charmin(R). But I didn't attack you personally. My point has validity to the discussion.

Nagin deflected criticism at the expense of the most reprehensible attack on American soil next to Pearl Harbor. That, in itself, makes him an asshole.

Whine all you want about viewing the video over and over. But, I know what's truly on the ground of NOLA, since I am "on the ground" in NOLA.

Comments left after Friday ... (Below threshold)

Comments left after Friday evening may have been deleted due to the server move. Since I warned everyone they won't be restored...

Thank you for the FYI. ... (Below threshold)
Chris:

Thank you for the FYI.

Yeah, 30+ comments which sh... (Below threshold)
BumperStickerist:

Yeah, 30+ comments which showed Paul knows as much about the WTC cleanup as he thinks we know about NOLA being deleted was a tragedy, unparalleled in the history of blogdom.

Not to mention any comment ... (Below threshold)
JD:

Not to mention any comment which disagrees with Paul's orthodoxy is magickally disappeared.

Nice.

And BTW Paul, the comment I had previously was entered AFTER the server move, ya tool.




Advertisements









rightads.gif

beltwaybloggers.gif

insiderslogo.jpg

mba_blue.gif

Follow Wizbang

Follow Wizbang on FacebookFollow Wizbang on TwitterSubscribe to Wizbang feedWizbang Mobile

Contact

Send e-mail tips to us:

tips@wizbangblog.com

Fresh Links

Credits

Section Editor: Maggie Whitton

Editors: Jay Tea, Lorie Byrd, Kim Priestap, DJ Drummond, Michael Laprarie, Baron Von Ottomatic, Shawn Mallow, Rick, Dan Karipides, Michael Avitablile, Charlie Quidnunc, Steve Schippert

Emeritus: Paul, Mary Katherine Ham, Jim Addison, Alexander K. McClure, Cassy Fiano, Bill Jempty, John Stansbury, Rob Port

In Memorium: HughS

All original content copyright © 2003-2010 by Wizbang®, LLC. All rights reserved. Wizbang® is a registered service mark.

Powered by Movable Type Pro 4.361

Hosting by ServInt

Ratings on this site are powered by the Ajax Ratings Pro plugin for Movable Type.

Search on this site is powered by the FastSearch plugin for Movable Type.

Blogrolls on this site are powered by the MT-Blogroll.

Temporary site design is based on Cutline and Cutline for MT. Graphics by Apothegm Designs.

Author Login



Terms Of Service

DCMA Compliance Notice

Privacy Policy