"They are actively manipulating the media in this country" by, for example, falsely blaming U.S. troops for civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, he said. "They can lie with impunity."

Does Irony have any greater application than in
the opium dreams of the FUBAR architects?

It'll be interesting to see if this gets any play in the mainstream media. I suspect not.

Does Irony have any greater application than in
the opium dreams of the FUBAR architects?

Semanticleo supports the troops, just not our troops. Yes, there is a greater application of irony and it is his inferring doubt and wrongful death on and by our boys fighting for our freedom. Ironic indeed.

And your point is what, exactly? "Bush is icky"? Thanks ever so much for your thoughtful contribution.

If we had known you were going to stay this p*ssed off, we wouldn't have bothered stealing the last two elections. But since the grown-ups are still in charge, why don't you come up with an actual workable way to win the war?

Hint: it doesn't include hugging and holding hands and singing Kumbaya and stuff.

comment directed at Semanticlod, not red fog.

"Does Irony have any greater application than in
the opium dreams of the FUBAR architects?"

This notion that Iraq is messed up because there wasn't some magical "plan" that could turn it into Switzerand in six months as opposed to the fact that it was run into the ground by a mass murdering police state for 35 years is one of the most insane things I've ever seen.

"What bothers me the most is how clever the enemy is,"

Rummy underestimates the enemy, what else is new?

Hermann Goering would be so proud of Rumsfeld right now.

“…the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.” - Hermann Goering

Now the administration is reduced to using Nazi propaganda? Unbelievable!

BarneyG,

I don't think its the enemy that Rumsfeld underestimated, it was the willingness of the democrats in the American Media (meaning 855 or more of the media) to aid and abet the enemy that the administration underestimated.

Like Live@9, the democrats in the press are just a bunch of useful idiots.

oops- meant 85% not 855 in last post...

Now the administration is reduced to using Nazi propaganda? Unbelievable!

Odd. You're the one using Nazi propaganda.

Whow!!! Live@9...it on took 1 hour and 22 minutes for a Nazi comparison to be thrown down. You and Lee are polishing the same turd I see...

Yes Paul, it was the media that underestimated the insurgency.

Wah! Wah! It's those dirty Muslims again It's all their fault. But careful folks, they're very clever. What a pile of steaming crap! Grow a spine you chickenhawk moron! Get a clue about how to fight terror, not blame everyone and everything else. The Islamist extremists have no monopoly on "lying with impunity".
With the terrorists manipulating the news on one side, and the BushCo media machine twisting and spinning it on the other, there's not much left.

So grouch, since you seem to have a clue - do you plan on sharing? How exactly do you propose we fight terror?

Since the Media types in this country were educated in the liberal colleges that makes manipulating the media easy. They also learned to use Photo Shop to lie complete with pictures. The entire left wing of the demoratic party has and is being manipulated by the socialist/communist wing (Soros and his ilk) of the party. The lefties can deny it but they are being led to slaughter with eyes wide open, but brain dead. They (left wingers) like to call others Nazi's while they are practicing, or falling, for the same tactice used by the nazi's on a daily basis. It's a real comedy to see what BDS has done to the left. The lefties really are scared that Bush is 'God', today they are saying if he had only stopped in N.O. last year and waved his hands over the city everything would have been ok. For a bunch of athiest they sure think he has a lot of power. ROFL

"Rummy underestimates the enemy, what else is new?"

Yes, this administration has a history of "getting it wrong" - Rumsfeld's frustration is, however, understandable. Iraq has blown up in our face, and not turned out anywhere close to what Rumsfeld and company predicted -- and more recently some fathead in a green helmet defeats Israel - who woulda thunk it...

If only we had people in Washington to whom the American people listened and trusted, it would be a simple matter to set the record straight. No one will believe Rumsfeld now, but that's what you get what you weave that tangled web of deceit, redheads.

With some semblance of intelligence, listening to advice from people in a position to know, taking the blinders off that prevent these fools from seeing the reality they've created. Get out of Iraq, partition the country and let them have at it. Re-concentrate our money, time and people here, at home, where it has been siphoned off to the black hole of hegemony in the Middle East. Maximize our intel gathering abilities, with appropriate oversight.

In short, nothing that's being done now.

Rumsfeld has also tried to manipulate the media
with certain success

it bums me out

without the media our government would do as they choose
the media is the last chance for our system of checks and balances

Grouch,

Go ahead a vote for Kerry again. I recall he has a "plan."

With some semblance of intelligence, listening to advice from people in a position to know, taking the blinders off that prevent these fools from seeing the reality they've created. Get out of Iraq, partition the country and let them have at it. Re-concentrate our money, time and people here, at home, where it has been siphoned off to the black hole of hegemony in the Middle East. Maximize our intel gathering abilities, with appropriate oversight.

That sounds a whole lot like what we did to get in this situation in the first place - or perhaps you just don't read history.

Besides - at what point in that diatribe did we actually FIGHT terrorism?

Love that line btw - "Intel with oversight" - HA And you may think Irag is another Vietnam NOW!!

Read some history groucho. Really.

Sinclair Lewis once said, "When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
My Grandfather fought fascism oversees (WW II intelligence officer) and just before he died warned my brothers and cousins that we would be fighting it here. So I make no apologies for pointing out the obvious comparisons, even to people who would rather not hear it.

Has there ever been a nation in the history of the world as willing to destroy itself as America? An increasingly vocal portion of the population thinks that everything we do is wrong and we deserve whatever we get. They actually help our enemies, apparently without realizing that by doing so they run to their own deaths.

"Suicide is painless" doesn't really work when millions who want to live will die painful deaths alongside you.

"What bothers me the most is how clever the enemy is...." says our Secty of Defense.

What bothers me most is the number of perople killed and yet to be killed. But Rumsfeld et al wouldn't even give that notion a passing thought.

I'm sure Live@9's grandfather would be so terribly disappointed to see that his grand-son/daughter is now fighting FOR the fascism he fought against. But he was right that we are fighting it here in America.

Anyone who takes the time to really look at the big picture here can see that the left, which is the socialist party, are the fascists. They might use the legal system more than the military/police as their communist brothers do in places like Cuba, Vietnam, N. Korea, and Venezuela, but no matter how its enforced, fascism is fascism.

And Live@9 is a hypocite for trying to call the right what the left is.

"What bothers me most is the number of perople killed and yet to be killed."

Including those UNDER Saddam's rule?

Now JB,

How dare you mention that "inconvenient truth"!

Ah JB and P.Bunyan....you have to pull out the old we're the saviors of the world card even though, of course, as you all know that had absolutley nothing to do with why we went to iRAQ.

If you're going to debate do it with credibility.

BarneyG: "Yes Paul, it was the media that underestimated the insurgency"

No, not at all Barney, but the media is fueling the insurgency. The insurgents know the American left wing- Murtha, Kerry, Pelosi, Dean- are on their side. They know media will report every insurgent "success" but will ignore downplay any successes of the Americans or the Iraqi forces.

I don't really think that the left is on the side of the terrorists. Not on purpose, anyway. Their aiding and abeting the terrorist is just an unintended consequence of their efforts to regain power and turn America into a totally socialist state.

Hugh,

I know its easier to be a democrat if you're ignorant, but you'd best read this:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

before you post anything so stupid here again.

"Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolutions of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population"

"Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people"

And yet Hugh has the typical left-wing hypocritical arogance to question our credability.

The twisted logic people like Bunyan use to blindly follow this administration is mind boggling. It's not GWB's policies or Rumsfeld's policies that fuel the insurgency. It's the leftist media. That has to be the most bizarre logic I've ever heard. Those Muslim insurgents in Baghdad (where they're lucky to get 7 hours of electricity a day) are squatting in their hiding places leafing through the NYTeat al. No, wait, they're busy watching CBS, NBC and ABC while cursing the infidels on Fox. They wait anxiously for quotes from Kerry, Dean and Pelosi to smile and laugh and realizes their cause is just. it energizes them so much they volunteer to blow themselves up, thinking besides the virgins they'll surely meet Kerry at al in heaven.

God forbid you should take a critical look at what's going on. Just blame it on the media. Katrina too. It's all the media, everything is the media.

Hugh,

If there is an afterlife that is anything like what the Christians believe, then the terrorists will get to spend time with Kerry when they get there.

If you think the terrorist aren't aware of their most useful weapon, the left-wing press, then you are truely ignorant. But all the regular readers here know that already.

You are a living breathing example of how powerful that weapon is to the terrorists.

BTW, understanding that the Iraq war was the correct thing to do (as even John Kerry did, before he changed his mind, before he changed his mind, before he changed his mind, before he changed his mind) is in no way "blindly following this adminstration".

But I do see the falacy of socialism. I don't want American to become the land of universal poverty, which is what socialism always ultimately gets you. So of the availible alternatives here in America, the Republicans are by far the lessor of the two evils.

... and two evils don't make it right. What an offal position we're in when we barely weigh toward 'the comparetively best, worst party' for our interests.

And what's all this talk about Kerry? You gotta get out of 'the hood', Home. Kerry don't play so good past Down East.

Maybe you could take a Great Lakes White-Out Cruise and experience niche Democrats havinga night on the town. See you there!

"What an offal position we're in"

That's right Todd.

It's all about money. You must be wealthy to make it in American politics and there aren't too many wealthy people who got that way by not being evil.

Believing the Iraq invasion was/is a good idea is to buy blindly into the misguided foolish excuse for foreign policy practiced by this administration. It was wrong then, and wrong now. Try, if you can to respond without mentioning Kerry. He's so 2004.

Most of the views here seem pretty rabidly right. In all of your fearmongering, you've missed seeing the majority shift away from support of the Bushies. It's picking up steam, it's the MAINstream. The world in general is less stable now than when Bush took office. Iraq is a long way from free. People can see that, no matter how loud you holler about the media, socialism, democrats and Muslims, trying to conflate them into a big bundle of fear. Seems like it's all you guys got. Name-calling and fearmongering. How's the current policy working out? Ask Americans anywhere. They are getting ready to answer in Nov.

Remember, no Kerry, no Clinton. That's history. Time to move on.

What's a perople? How do you spell awful?

Paul, and Katrina barred the door to you too. G'day.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: I support the war, but damned if the Administration is absolutely God-awful at communicating and explaining to the American public the nature and tactics of our enemy and why exactly we're fighting the war and looking to change the oppressive culture of the Middle East that preaches anti-Semitism and hatred of the west that gives rise to groups like Al Qaeda.

But until we start finding a way to get rid of hate-spewing machines like Al Jazeera that constantly feed images of alleged western atrocities to the masses, and taking out broadcast feeds like Hezbollah TV, then Rumsfelds' complaints, while spot on correct, comes across as so much whining. If we want to change the message being delivered to Muslims, then it's time to change the messenger.

Wars are won and lost on airwaves and in media. Pathetically, the western media still hasn't figure that one out when it comes to terrorism. But terrorist thugs have known and exploited it since Munich.

So now we're fear mongering. groucho - do you have any answers, or just party line criticism?

Kerry stays relevant because he's answer seems to be your answer: “I have a plan.”

For once and all - wtf is the plan??????

How do you think the democrats plan on facing terrorism?

How do you think the democrats plan on facing terrorism?

By facing backwards like before.

Like bees, if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone and it will be good.

I like that theory about he who mentions Hitler or Nazis ends the rational debate.

I'd like to see it include 9/11 too.
Anytime I hear people try to justify this war by referring to 9/11 I just want to yawn.
9/11 isn't even important to the Presidential Administration.

BTW, the left-wing press = Mother Jones Magazine, not those who promoted the Whitewater witch hunt and the War on Gore (NYT, WaPo).

Ed:

It used to be awefill instead of awful. And now it's becoming allfilled.

Thanks for the heads up on that one.

Umm...Groucho?

How stable was the world before the Bush Administration? I can't seem recall all this stability after the bombings of the Cole, Kenya and Tanzenia, NK, Oslo Accords debacle, Somalia, pilots attacked in the No-fly Zones and the Oil-for-Food going on, Enron etc.

I don't agree with Bush and I'm hardly a follower, but at the very least...this administration has made it impossible for ostriches like you to live like it was 9/10.

I'd like to see it include 9/11 too.
Anytime I hear people try to justify this war by referring to 9/11 I just want to yawn.
9/11 isn't even important to the Presidential Administration.

HAHA! That's so typical! 9/11 justified Afganistan. 17 Resolutions, 1441 and the majority vote in Congress justified Iraq. Just continue wearing your ass as a hat and enjoy the smell.

And, Groucho...those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The world didn't start at Nov. 2000, so everything is relevant.

I love it, he also said that our liberal friends are, and get this, . . .

"Intellectually and morally confused"

I think this man needs to be President!

Hey Scrapiron, I'm an athiest and frat boy is a born again christian. So for me, there was no stopping Katrina. But frat boy, on the other hand, could have prayed to stop it. Why didn't he? If he prayed hard enough, wouldn't his "god" have held back the water for him? Just wondering.

And P Bunyan, I think Sect 3 of that little cite you gave us, (The joint resolution to authorize...) says that frat boy has the authority to use the armed forces. It doesn't say he had to use it. Big difference there my man. But I blame congress, they gave him the power knowing the neocons around him would abuse it.

BTW, Hillary -oh I wish I were prez.-Clinton is just ass culpable in all of this, and all the double talk in the world won't get her out of having voted for this war.

My Grandfather fought fascism oversees (WW II intelligence officer) and just before he died warned my brothers and cousins that we would be fighting it here.

If your grandfather did today what he did back then, you'd be calling for his execution. The bar of acceptable has become a bit absurd as of late.

I'll GUARANTEE you that your grandfather did stuff that makes anything done in the War thus far seem downright tame in comparison.

Those Muslim insurgents in Baghdad (where they're lucky to get 7 hours of electricity a day) are squatting in their hiding places leafing through the NYTeat al. No, wait, they're busy watching CBS, NBC and ABC while cursing the infidels on Fox.

Yes, they routinely stage "atrocities" for the press for the hell of it.

They know how weak the left is.
-=Mike

Ever wonder why assholes like "pucker puss" (lee lee),1/2 dead@ 8:30, grouchie, hugh "baby", yard person of color, oh you know the ones I mean still live in the "worst country" on earth?

MikeSC,
Are you saying that our Grandfathers, Fathers and Uncles (Grandmothers, Mothers and Aunts were also a big part of the WWII effort) were guilty of committing war crimes? Because if you are, I hope you have some proof to back up your claim. Otherwise I'll just chalk it up to somebody who lives in his own fantasy world of spin.

"I'll GUARANTEE you that your grandfather did stuff that makes anything done in the War thus far seem downright tame in comparison."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the German war machine under trial for crimes against humanity, not American soldiers. I don't remember our boys committing torture and rape in any of the prisoners of war camps we maintained oversees during WWII. Our troops were to well disciplined to do something that stupid. After you win the battle you must win the hearts and minds (like japan and germany for example) to win the war.

how66,
Thanks for the laugh (1/2 dead@8:30: your new name for me made my night). You have no idea how often I feel that way. Seriously, thanks I needed that : )

Feild-negro; "frat boy has the authority to use the armed forces. It doesn't say he had to use it. Big difference there my man"

So you think it would have been best to just make an empty threat with no intention of enforcing it?

Yeah that would have worked.

Of course that's exactly what Kerry said should have been done when he was campaigning in '04. That guy was such an idiot, yet he is best that the democratic party has to offer.

Even though you historical revisionists on the left want to igore the truth on this one, Bush did not just attack Iraq out of the blue. He gave Saddam the option to comply with the United Nations. He gave them a deadline. One the deadline was reached and Saddam remained in defiance of the United Nations, Bush had no other option. Had we done what Kerry suggested (just made an empty threat) we would NEVER AGAIN be able to use diplomacy to solve a problem like this.

From reading your posts it shows that you sure need something-like a good dose of the smarts.

Are you saying that our Grandfathers, Fathers and Uncles (Grandmothers, Mothers and Aunts were also a big part of the WWII effort) were guilty of committing war crimes?

By the left's current definition, without a doubt. Horrific ones in the current eyes of the left. Psychological abuse of prisoners on a horifying scale.

Your grandfather, for example, sure as hell would not have provided a Muslim inmate Korans or assistance in finding Mecca. Which, of course, would be quite the war crime today.

However, are they war crimes by a rational definition? No.

But rational left the window the day Bush was elected with the left.

Because if you are, I hope you have some proof to back up your claim. Otherwise I'll just chalk it up to somebody who lives in his own fantasy world of spin.

I'll suggest you read up on what happened in the battlefields. Horrific stuff.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the German war machine under trial for crimes against humanity, not American soldiers.

Well, we DID win. We didn't try the Japanese under war crimes laws to any extent either and THEY did things that would've made the Nazis retch.

You can easily call the bombing of Dresden a massive war crime if one was so inclined.

I don't remember our boys committing torture and rape in any of the prisoners of war camps we maintained oversees during WWII.

Wow, things you don't remember. Stunning.

Torture by your definition occurred without any doubt whatsoever. Rape? Isn't occurring now in POW camps.

Our troops were to well disciplined to do something that stupid. After you win the battle you must win the hearts and minds (like japan and germany for example) to win the war.

It's kinda cute that you're this naive to believe nothing bad happened until Vietnam. Yup, THAT was where it ALL started.

Sure.
-=Mike

After you win the battle you must win the hearts and minds (like japan and germany for example) to win the war.

Amazing what dropping an A bomb on two inhabited cities will do for hearts and minds, huh. And by the lefts definition, wouldn't that be a war crime.

"So you think it would have been best to just make an empty threat with no intention of enforcing it?"

You mean kind of like frat boy has been doing with Iran, N. Korea, and that axis of evil?
Those empty threats?

Oh, and jhoe69 or whatever your handle is; real clever with the names.(You should be writing jokes...I mean news for FOX) But you still didn't answer my question. Anyway, I get it, republican die hards are like boxers, always sticking and moving.

Nice!

Fierld-negro,

I have no idea what threats you're talking about. Care to elaborate? Or give at least one example?

And the countries you mentioned in the second paragraph are part of the axis of evil so that paragraph was gramatically incorrect.

Ya need proof? (taken from the wikipedia on Eddie Slovik--the only American soldier shot for desertion in WWII)

Court martial
The 28th Division was scheduled to begin an attack on Hurtgen Forest. The attack was common knowledge in the unit and casualty rates were expected to be very high. Men indicated they preferred to be imprisoned rather than remain in combat and the rates for desertion and other crimes had begun to rise.

Slovik was charged with desertion to avoid hazardous duty and court martialled on November 11, 1944. The prosecutor, Captain John Green, presented witnesses to whom Slovik had stated his intent to "run away". The defense counsel, Captain Edward Woods, announced that Slovik had elected not to testify. The nine officers of the court found Slovik guilty and sentenced him to death. The sentence was reviewed and approved by the divisional commander, Major General Norman Cota.

On December 9, Slovik wrote a letter to the Supreme Allied commander, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, pleading for clemency. Desertion, however, had become a problem and Eisenhower confirmed the execution order on December 23. The execution, by firing squad, was carried out at 10:04 a.m. on January 31, 1945, near the village of Sainte-Marie-aux-Mines. Slovik was twenty-four years old.

Slovik was buried in the Oise-Aisne Cemetery in Fère-en-Tardenois alongside ninety-four other American soldiers executed for crimes such as rape and murder. Their headstones bore numbers rather than names. In 1987, forty-two years after his execution, Slovik's remains were returned to Michigan and reburied in Woodmere Cemetery, Detroit, next to his wife Antoinette, who had died in 1979. Slovik's wife and others have petitioned seven U.S. Presidents, but Slovik has not been pardoned.

You liberals are naive to believe that this behavior is "new". Do you honestly think that an execution for desertion could happen today?

P Bunyan, thanks for the correction. You are right, I should have said ~and that other member of the "axis of evil~. I didn't know I stumbled on the Librarian web site. But since we are correcting, it's field not "fierld".

Moseby,
Thank you for taking my bait so that I could make a simple point. Anyone with an 8th grade understanding of WW II knew that the punishment for desertion and war crimes by US troops was execution. Here were my traps:

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the German war machine under trial for crimes against humanity, not American soldiers."
: note the direct challenge
: and this little ditty.

"I don't remember our boys committing torture and rape in any of the prisoners of war camps we maintained oversees during WWII."

then stir in some left wing talking points ( buzz words like Hearts and Minds)

Knowing full well that at least one of you guy or gals would do a little research and prove me wrong. You know you guys love to prove people you perceive as libs wrong. Then all I had to do is have one of you advocate this form of punishment for todays combat situations.

"Do you honestly think that an execution for desertion could happen today?"

I know this isn't a direct approval of the policy but you leaning that way and you like to show how weak libs are by not supporting it. That's close enough and if I waited any longer for you guys we'd be on page 3.

Then all I had to do is ask questions like: How far up the chain of command are you willing to go with this policy? Why do you hate our troops? Why do they need to be in Iraq. How many more are you willing to sacrifice before they can come home?

hey Live@9, I had a good loff at yer post. SIMPLE POINT? Yer post is so convoluted and disjointed I have no idea what yer point is, dummy. Typical liberal.

Here's what I figger happened this morning:

-The bars closed at 2 AM
-It took you 9 minutes to stagger home.
-It took you 4 minutes to get the key in the lock.
-You fell down and slept on the floor for 7 minutes (ooh...how's that bump on the noggin?).
-It took 8 minutes to draft that ridiculous brain dump and hit "post".

Was I close? Lemme know, please...