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Oh, grow up!

Yesterday, Kim posted a piece about Al Qaeda's latest propaganda tape. And as is often the case around these parts, the discussion went off on its own in ways I'm sure she never expected, and became a debate on comparative theology. As an agnostic, I felt I was a pretty good "neutral observer," and poked through it.

I was not surprised to see the "Muslims aren't doing anything that Christians have done in the past" argument brought up yet again. It's a hardy perennial of a talking point, always making its appearance in such discussions.

I don't like that argument for a couple of reasons. The first reason is what I like to call the "unclean hands" fallacy. It reminds me of how some permissive parents are afraid to tell their kids not to smoke/drink/have sex/drive fast/worship Satan, because they did the same when they were kids. It's a form of egotism, to me; they would rather let their children suffer than be considered hypocrites.

Likewise, those of us who are of Christian heritage (even agnostics like me) are accused of having a double standard, because of the Crusades, the Inquisition and other ignoble events in Christian history.

And that is the key point: Christian history.

We (speaking of my Christian heritage, not personal beliefs) were like that once -- but we aren't any more. We outgrew it. We got over it. We now know that it was wrong, and have not made those mistakes again.

I don't much care for Bill O'Reilly -- he's a bit of a blowhard -- but he has one aphorism that really rings true to me: "you don't excuse bad behavior by citing other bad behavior." No parent worthy of that title accepts "well, I might have done X, but so-and-so did Y" as an excuse. And those who respond to Muslim atrocities by saying "other religions have done bad things too" ought to be horsewhipped.

Very bad things are being done in the name of Islam today. They are being done both against Muslims and non-Muslims. They need to be addressed today, not rationalized, not excused, not sloughed off.

The obligation to address this falls first on Muslims. This mess is theirs, it's their house that needs cleaning. They have to take a stand against those who they accuse of "hijacking" their faith and take it away from them.

But they haven't done very much on that front. Rather, they tend to simply say it's bad and leave it at that. When pressed, they say that they simply can't take sides against a fellow Muslim, even if that Muslim is woefully misguided and doing terrible things. This is usually followed by a recap of the Crusades and other Christian misdeeds (see above). And if you're really lucky, you'll get a denouncement of Israel and its "aggression" and "oppression" of Muslims, too.

So in the absence of Muslims cleaning their own house, it's incumbent on others to rein in their most heinous abuses. Those "others" are us non-Muslims who aren't overly keen about "submitting." (Remember, "Islam" does not mean "peace," it means "submission.") We need to tell the non-extremist Muslims to get the hell out of the way and stay the hell out of the way while we do the dirty work they have not done themselves.

The War on Terror is better known as the War on Islamic Fascism. It is not a War on Islam, but on those elements of Islam that pose a direct threat to our lives and our way of life. It should be a joint effort, with the West backing Muslims who, by rights, ought to be the fiercest opponents of those extremists. But they've chosen to simply say a few bad things about them, leaving us to do their dirty work and clean their house for them.

That's OK. We'll step up and do it, because we don't really have a choice. But those Muslims who have decided to shirk their own responsibilities should not think we won't forget that when it came down to challenging the vipers in their own bosom, they chose to do nothing.


Comments (43)

It is because Muslims refus... (Below threshold)
Peg C.:

It is because Muslims refuse to deal with their Islamofascists that this Long War will be a War on Islam. I am not at all certain we will win.

Islam means "Submission", t... (Below threshold)

Islam means "Submission", that is true. What it means is submitting yourself to God.

Since you didn't mention in your post the exact chronology of how some Muslims didn't stand up against those you labelled Islamo-fascists (a term that's becoming increasinly popular on Internet Blogs, I've noticed), could you mind explaining how that went about?

How the non-fascist Muslims didn't stand up to the others, what they could have done in your opinion and didn't, when, how... all these things or as many of them as you could possibly muster?

I'm interested in finding out how non-muslims think of this.

We can't win, as long as we... (Below threshold)

We can't win, as long as we are so divided on even the basics of who we are fighting and why. If you count 1979 as when this started, and note the steady stream of attacks since then, and that even 9/11 couldn't pull us together for any appreciable length of time... then considering that we may well lose is the "reality based" position.

Right now, in spite of all the "war" talk and the fact that troops are deployed, it's still being treated like a criminal investigation by the public and the media. No one is willing to really remember what winning a war looks like (Dresden, Hiroshima, for example where thousands of non-combatants are killed) and accept the fact that in order to win, we have to crush the enemy. And enemy includes passive supporters, not just active terrorists. Until or if we accept that, the best we can hope for is to stay even, because winning is out of the question.

"Very bad things are being ... (Below threshold)
scheisse:

"Very bad things are being done in the name of Islam today. They are being done both against Muslims and non-Muslims. They need to be addressed today, not rationalized, not excused, not sloughed off"
That is true.
The secondary problem comes when people ignorant of the diversity of Islam insist on holding all followers of Islam responsible for the acts of a teensy-weensy minority. Now, even though countless Muslim groups have come out publically since 9/11 as being against terrorism, they are not even believed. Perhaps you've heard, on this very site even, variations on "Ooh, those sneaky liars trying to lull us into a false sense of comfort, just so they can stab us in the back!". Nobody likes to be accused of actions or intentions that they are innocent of. So as I see the vast majority of Muslims being basically discriminated against because of their religion, it makes sense to turn the tables and put good Christians in the same position and see how they like it. They protest! Because it's *history*, man. But wait-- those who blame all Muslims are convinced that the problem lies not in the individuals adhering to the religion but in the very tenets of the religion itself! Even though millions upon millions of Muslims do not engage in terrorism. Seems to be a double-standard. Either every Muslim is tainted by definition (in which case, why bother to ask seeminly moderate ones to get their extremists in line) OR it's only some of them who pervert the teachings (like Christians!), BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
Does that make sense?

Faisal, it's a bit d... (Below threshold)

Faisal,
it's a bit difficult to describe things that haven't happened. And probably never will.

You could have been anti-Israel without espousing terror, but your blog says you "fully support Hizbollah." Do you consider yourself moderate, or extremist?

Oh, and as for me - "what t... (Below threshold)

Oh, and as for me - "what they could have done in your opinion and didn't"

When we see as many Muslims in the streets *without equivocation* protesting terror as we did protesting some lame cartoons, then I'll start to believe in the "majority of Muslims are moderates" myth.

Faisal:What do I t... (Below threshold)

Faisal:

What do I think? I'm thinking Islam needs to get a damn clue, look at CHRISTIAN history and avoid making the same damn mistakes! The books are out there, the lessons are clear as can be - and they need to be applied to Islam ASAP or the consequences are going to be dire indeed.

But I don't think you can. And it's looking more and more (with the propaganda efforts lately by Al Zawahiri and Goat-Boy Gadahn) like it's not 'surrender to God' the Islamic facists are looking for, it's surrender to their particular head-hacking malignantly corrupted version of Islam they're seeking for us poor, misguided 'unbelivers'.

If the mythical Moderate Muslims don't learn from Christianity's past and really push the issue of PEACE, then I see little hope for the continuation of Islam. And all it'll take is one jihadi nutcase with a nuke going all martyristic, and you can expect to lose pretty much all world sympathy and likely Mecca in the process.

You know something? This could all have been avoided if Bin Laden had left the West alone. Pre 9/11, the vast majority of folks in the West didn't give a shit about Islam one way or the other. Now we're being forced to pay attention to it, and your spokesbastards just don't have much to recommend it. The entire religion doesn't have much, in my opinion, just a seething cauldron of mysogynistic hatred and xenophobia, all set to a tune of religious justification.

That's my thoughs on the matter now. Pre 9/11, I had a pretty positive view of Islam - I'd worked for Muslim ex-pats from Iran and they were good folk. Post 9/11? You guys need to clean house and learn to coexist with the West FAST, or there's going to be millions dead before the radioactive dust settles.

J.

Likewise, those of... (Below threshold)
Likewise, those of us who are of Christian heritage (even agnostics like me) are accused of having a double standard, because of the Crusades, the Inquisition and other ignoble events in Christian history.

And that is the key point: Christian history.

We (speaking of my Christian heritage, not personal beliefs) were like that once -- but we aren't any more. We outgrew it. We got over it. We now know that it was wrong, and have not made those mistakes again.

I agree with Jay, here. How flawed can one line of thought be? Fatally flawed, in this case. Whereas, the Crusades were a dirty, sinful stain to those who professed to be Christian, it was ended at one point (7 Crusades, about 250 years later, in all), in the year 1290 A.D..

What started the Crusades? Islamic imperialism and expansionism. The ancient and still active mandate of Muhammad to "evangelize" (read: "rule") the world for Islam.

However, the history of Islamic brutal invasions and bloody conquests is near continuous from the 7th Century A.D., all the way up to the 20th Century obliteration of the Biblical city of Smyrna, a once thriving and vibrant port city along the Mediterranean.

Simply stated, Islam's only goal (as evidenced by their historic record) is to convert the infidels or kill them all, and to rule the world, thereby bringing an Islamic controlled "peace."

Geez Jay, I'm going to sta... (Below threshold)
todd:

Geez Jay, I'm going to start caaling you 'Little Constantine', who conquered Rome BY the cross and not FOR the cross.

Muslims are completely submitted to the Islamists as dictated by Mohammed, the biggest fascist to ever roam the planet. Inculcated obsequiescence to the thugs is self-propagating based on the mad mandates of Allah.

The comparison of the Islamists to National Socialist Germany fit perfectly, except they don't bother with concentration camps to create fear over those they rule.

Good thinking and good strategy. Kudos.

P.S. - Don't forget to miss the Burqa Fall Fashion Show!

I suspect we would all be s... (Below threshold)

I suspect we would all be satisfied if the "mainstream Muslims" were simply equally loud in their public denunciations of the radical terrorists as they are in complaining about the way Islam is being portrayed in the press or online.

That, they are emphatically NOT, or the violent radical beliefs would not be being spread through their own mosques in the US, UK, Canada, and Europe. Until and unless they clean up the mess in their own backyards, their protests to the rest of us reek of cowardice and hypocrisy.

"It reminds me of how some ... (Below threshold)
Semanticleo:

"It reminds me of how some permissive parents are afraid to tell their kids not to smoke/drink/have sex/drive fast/worship Satan, because they did the same when they were kids. It's a form of egotism, to me; they would rather let their children suffer than be considered hypocrites."

Jay's epistemology dovetails nicely with earlier
homily;

"I was not surprised to see the "Muslims aren't doing anything that Christians have done in the past" argument brought up yet again"

'Do as I say, not as I do' is generally among the first hypocrysies learned by a child, and it is most commonly heard from a beloved parent.

Excusing bad behavior by projecting a greater misdeed onto another is a false argument of moral equivilism. It is not necessary to prove equal, or greater wrongs in order to establish moral or spiritual superiority. The tenets or doctrines of Christianity that espouse the higher calling of the Sermon on the Mount are all that is necessary
to elevate one's behavior above the fray. If other's choose another Prophet or teaching which
promotes wrongdoing inconsistent with one's core beliefs, that does not alter or amend the views of one who adheres to the former.

Hypocrisy is the issue in such discussions. If you don't subscribe to the peaceful, apolitical views of the Prophet, then don't attach yourself to him. You do him a grave injustice by endorsing his name, but compromising his principles. Let's not muddy those waters.

LauraSee that's th... (Below threshold)

Laura

See that's the way you look at it. If you've seen my blog, then you might have noticed that I have a strong dislike for Islamists.

The way the last conflict played out had Hezbollah, which I do not consider a terrorist organization (for reasons explicitly stated on my blog), as defending their ARAB (not Muslim) land against an invader.

If the invader was Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the United States, Russia or even JAPAN, I would have still supported Hezbollah.

Finally, I don't consider myself anything. I have views. I apply them, learn from my mistakes, develop them and argue for them. What's a moderate? What's an extremist?

I'm sure you've seen and heard of so many definitions of these two words and people who say they belong to one camp or the other that (to me at least) it becomes pretty useless calling myself one or the other.

Uh, J?

Whatever you say man. You say you worked for good ex-pat Iranians (I don't know jack about Iranians personally, they're not Arabs, and I've never had contact with them) and you say Osama Bin Laden is this and that.

Cool.

I really don't mind. I don't put myself and the Iranians in one basket. I'm almost 100% positive they don't either.

But, by your own admittance and your own criteria (by grouping all people who belong to the Muslim Faith together) there are "good" Muslims and "bad" Muslims.

Okay. I can live with that.

As for the rest of what you wrote... just shows how misinformed you are.

But you'll just dismiss that statement, so I won't bother.

No scheisse it doesn’t mak... (Below threshold)
Sultanofsham:

No scheisse it doesn’t make sense.

When your so called “teensy-weensy minority” is out murdering people in pizza places, blowing up school buses, taking school children hostage, killing their own for wearing the wrong clothes, killing their own for being raped, sawing off the heads of people, claiming that basic Muslim behaviors allow for the enslaving and sexually abuse of housekeepers and so on while the rest stand by and do nothing at best ( or in the case of the governments and legal systems of Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and others give direct and or indirect support to such things) and things like you crawl out from under rocks whining that once upon a time Christians did some bad things because you think that “it makes sense to turn the tables and put good Christians in the same position and see how they like it” you see why people are getting sick of the rationalization that you and your ilk keep bleating and why we are getting tired of Muslims lack of action.

Lip service just doesn’t cut it, neither does rationalization. They need to get off their asses and fix the problem like Christians did quite awhile ago.

Bravo, Jay Tea! You have sa... (Below threshold)

Bravo, Jay Tea! You have said what needs saying. Leaders of the Muslim community must, in the words of that liberal puke Ted Turner, lead, follow, or get out of the way! If you won't clean your own house, us non-muslims must do it for you.

Good post, Jay Tea!

Faisal, that's the problem.... (Below threshold)

Faisal, that's the problem. If you don't consider Hezbollah "Islamist" or a terror organization... what use is further conversation? I don't really care about your reasons for doing so, or how justified you think you are. By supporting Hezbollah, you support terror - kidnappings, suicide bombings, combatants hiding among civilians, and preventing civilians from leaving a war zone. Whether they also do charitable things on the side - and whether their motives for that are "pure" or P.R. - is completely irrelevant, akin to the propaganda arguments that Mussolini made the trains run on time. They're terrorists. And you support them.

It only takes a quick Googl... (Below threshold)
Peter S:

It only takes a quick Google search to catch the conversation of what Muslims think. My first search was for Muslims in the US Military. From a brief skim through several web sites there are 4000 to 10,000 currently serving. The US military accommodates the Muslim religious requirements and a few bases have even built mosques.

http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1463_0_26_0_C

This particular web site is run by journalists who happen to be Americans, live in the US and are Muslim. I think the comments on the article are most enlightening in the fact that the Muslim community is as divided as any others.

Finally, we are all Americans regardless of race color or creed. When the terrorists divide the American opinions: religious, political, moral and so on then that allows them a bigger foothold in the GWOT. A concerted effort to publicize what the Muslim opinions are by the blog-o-sphere, because per usual the MSM has missed the boat, hook, byline, and sinker, could go a long ways towards coming to a united consensus which is, in my opinion, needed to win.

Notice how Faisal's support... (Below threshold)

Notice how Faisal's support for Hezbollah is based upon his belief that they are Arabs protecting an Arab country from invasion.

Look at his complete unwillingness to even acknowledge why Israel invaded - that is, Hezbollah, a terrorist organization, kidnapped two soldiers from Israel.

Also notice how he does not acknowledge that Hezbollah, a terrorist organization, killed our Marines in a barracks in Lebanon. Moreover, they were in Lebanon to help the Lebanese bring peace to their country.

Faisal does indeed support extremists and is an extremist himself. He is so caught up in the madness he does not even see it, however.

Yep!... (Below threshold)
914:

Yep!

At this point in this war i... (Below threshold)
Thor-Zone:

At this point in this war it is clear to me that Islam IS the enemy. It is true that all terrorists are Muslims, but not all Muslims are terrorists. Until "mainstream" Muslims get off their butts and start doing something to fix this problem, they are part of the problem.

US Citizens, especia... (Below threshold)
Southern_Born:


US Citizens, especially those of in the South, or like me, raised in the South was raised with weapons. There is a war coming, it is inevitable in my opinion. You can protect your family by converting or protect them with owning a weapon like a Glock20 and how to use it. Wife and I have both chosen the Glock20. She is a better shot than I am and when we first got married, she was terrified of even a BB gun. Now she would be terrified not to have a means of protecting us. Thank God the NRA didn’t let the Demo-fascist take away our rights to defend ourselves. That is the main reason why both her and I left the Democrat party and joined the GOP.

Nuke Mekka... (Below threshold)
jimmy:

Nuke Mekka

Nuke Mecca?Heh, ta... (Below threshold)

Nuke Mecca?

Heh, talk about extremism.

When other religions have p... (Below threshold)
robert:

When other religions have problems, like the pedophile priests, there is no shortage of their own to condemn them.

Not so with Islam, apart from a very few examples.

Where are the moderate muslims? Are they hiding under the bed?

Nowhere is Burke's adage more apt:

"All it takes for injustice to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

It is not nearly enough, I would add, to explain away your silence out of fear.

We'll You either convert an... (Below threshold)
914:

We'll You either convert and sacrifice Your children and Yourself or You dont convert and are a target? Either way Your fffd.. So take them out first!

Nuke Tehran

Shuffle off back to the DU... (Below threshold)
Sultanofsham:

Shuffle off back to the DU, KOS or whatever other slimepit you crawled out of jimmy the provocateur.

It's interesting to note ho... (Below threshold)
j:

It's interesting to note how readily virtually the entire world is to condemn the Crusades as this awful thing done by Christianity against the innocent Muslims. What religion was Jerusalem before the muslims showed up? The Romans had expelled the jews and then adopted christianity, which would mean that Jerusalem was a christian city. The moslems attacked and conquored it. They killed, oppressed (dhimmitude), and forcibly converted christians. The Great Mosque in Jerusalem is built on the foundations of a christian church. Can you imagine the resonse in the muslim world if a church was built on the foundations of a mosque? Pope Urban was not calling for the conquest of the muslims. He was not calling for unprovoked attacks on them. He was calling for the defense of christians against an oppressive conquorer.

The Crusaders were not attackers. They were defenders. The muslims were the attackers. It's interesting to note though how readily everybody is to accept the Crusaders as bad guys that the West has to appologize for without any question as to what the muslims were doing, which is basically the same thing they are doing today.

Hey, Faisal! <a href="http:... (Below threshold)
cybrludite:

Hey, Faisal! these the folks you want to go on record as supporting?

J: You are preaching to the... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

J: You are preaching to the choir. Everyone in the democratic party knows everything is America's fault and before that everything was the christian's fault. Right now they are rewriting history to prove it. I don't know if they all live in fantasy land or La La (stone cold crazy) land.

What's a "teensy-weensy min... (Below threshold)

What's a "teensy-weensy minority"? 10%? 5%? Because just 2% of Islam is 24 MILLION. That's quite an army if you ask me. And a "teensy weensy minority" of what? Quiet supporters or all out fanatics? Because if it's all out fanatics then what other percent do the supporters (quiet or vociferous) make up? Another 15%? 20%? At even only 10% that would be another 120 MILLION. That's quite a support group.

See where I'm going with this? Stop looking at percentages or using vague words like "minority" and look at the hard numbers if you want a true picture of the force we're up against.

Odd, Faisal, that you menti... (Below threshold)

Odd, Faisal, that you mentioned how you would have still supported Hizballah even if Syria were an invader. Because Syria was indeed an invader, occupier and oppressor. Does this mean you approve of Hizballah's connections to Syria - an occupier? Because you can't have it both ways.

Most of us, always looking for a way to apply common sense, would say that we support the Lebanese government getting it's act together. Not some renegade, self-appointed alternate government who engages in terror tactics and also just happens to build schools. Never mind the missiles hidden in bunkers under those schools and hospitals.

Faisal -You wanted... (Below threshold)

Faisal -

You wanted our thoughts - sorry mine didn't meet with your approval. As far as Iranians not being Muslim enough for your taste, too bad. As far as I'm concerned, celebrating Ramadan's a pretty fair indicator you're Muslim - at least in my book.

J. (Not Jay Tea.)

The first reason is what... (Below threshold)
astifgafa:

The first reason is what I like to call the "unclean hands" fallacy, so we must name our own, if we are using our own. It reminds me of how some permissive parents are afraid to tell their kids not to smoke/drink/have sex/drive fast/worship Satan, because they did the same when they were kids. It's a form of egotism, to me; they would rather let their children suffer than be considered hypocrites.

You would like to call it the "unclean hands" fallacy, because, in logic, there is no such fallacy: there is the "Fruits of the Poisonous Tree" doctrine in American law, and that one's logically defensible, yours is not. (Hey: And if those parents are still smoking, drinking, surfing the web to look at lesbiangrandmothers.com, et al? Worshipping Satan in the person of Katie Couric, Donald Trump, Tom Cruise?)

We got over it. We now know that it was wrong, and have not made those mistakes again.

So what the fuck are we doing in Iraq? Spare me the 9/11 excuses; even the president has admitted that one. We are spreading our culture at gunpoint, which is the Muslim way. We are using torture, and that's okay with most of the people on this site. Bin Laden wouldn't think twice; does that make you admire him more?

In general, I get your point, but the truth is that we are not perfect human beings for being Christian (or agnositic, or Muslim -- the only perfection I can document empirically is that of astigafaness, and it's non-transferrable; e.g. my farts smell like fresh-cut Christmas trees; I would hazard to say that yours do not.)

Okay, so Muslims aren't doing anything that Christians have done in the past, whatever; but they (Christians) might be doing one or two things that Muslims are doing in the present, and I don't recall any Muslim country doing things that this ostensibly "Christian" country are currently doing -- with the exception of Iraq. Saddam did indeed attack a small country (Kuwait) that had not attacked it.

Oh wait: Saddam's not really an observant Muslim, is he? You *do* agree that Saddam Hussein is not an observant Muslim, and that his secularism has been widely denounced throughout the Muslim world? Or are you immune to actual historical facts, as are so many Republicans these days?

It's okay. Christians who think that war is always the answer are equally non-observant. "If my kingdom were of this world," said Jesus, "they would fight." The unborn, as it turns out, are the only people Christians seem to want to preserve, and I know of no war scenario -- at home or abroad -- that conservative Christians dislike. Not one.

And that, my old, is the fucking truth, and anyone who denies it should not venture outside in an electrical storm.

My final judgement (pun not intended) is that Christian Wahabism is no more welcome than Muslim Wahabism, which is what we got, frankly. And if you're an agnostic, you must agree that the fundementalist urge, wherever you find it, is wrong and reprehensible.

If there's a difference between Islamofascists and Christofascists, it has yet to show itself.

Jay poses Bush's ultimatum ... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Jay poses Bush's ultimatum to Muslim moderates ."You are either with us or against us."Or Tariq Ali's choice between the 'Islamist anvil' and 'the American hammer,' but if the West's tone is threatening and hectoring, it will only makes the ordinary Muslim people very angry, and put them even more into the Islamist camp, whom they see as the only real opposition to Western threats (Iran) ..I just don't think West, led by the Bush administration has the sensitivity and form of recent experience (Iraq and Lebanon) to pull it off, and the results will probably be that we will continue to lose influential Muslim moderates like Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in an increasing polarized situation...According to 'the Daily Telegraph' today "The most influential moderate Shia leader in Iraq has abandoned attempts to restrain his followers, admitting that there is nothing he can do to prevent the country sliding towards civil war.
Aides say Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani is angry and disappointed that Shias are ignoring his calls for calm and are switching their allegiance in their thousands to more militant groups which promise protection from Sunni violence and revenge for attacks.
Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani
"I will not be a political leader any more," he told aides. "I am only happy to receive questions about religious matters."

The fallacy is often called... (Below threshold)
JGrams:

The fallacy is often called "Tu Quoque" (You Also).

Because, whomever forbid, w... (Below threshold)
cybrludite:

Because, whomever forbid, we should worry about offending folks who's only response to their co-religionists doing something horrible is to whinge at us about possible backlash against themselves. Never whinging or doing something useful about the folks doing the horrible backlash-inducing stuff, mind you. That huge majority of Muslims better do something about that "tiny minority", or they're going to get lumped in with the rest of them.

The secondary problem co... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

The secondary problem comes when people ignorant of the diversity of Islam insist on holding all followers of Islam responsible for the acts of a teensy-weensy minority.

I see no possible means of which you can actually state that a "teensy-weensy" minority either participates or ACTIVELY CONDONES (which is every inch as bad) the atrocities routinely committed, all over the world, in the name of Allah.

The "teensy-weensy" minority, which is becoming more and more clear, is actually the number of Muslims who are willing to live peacefully in secular governments.

Now, even though countless Muslim groups have come out publically since 9/11 as being against terrorism

Almost all of their "anti-terrorism" statements are "It's bad, BUT..."

Which, in simpler terms, is not a condemnation at all.

Nobody likes to be accused of actions or intentions that they are innocent of. So as I see the vast majority of Muslims being basically discriminated against because of their religion, it makes sense to turn the tables and put good Christians in the same position and see how they like it.

It isn't Christianity that has the concept of a peace treaty only until one can overrun one's enemies.

Islam does.

And it's funny that the "discrimination" Muslims face is people using their faith against them. The "discrimination" others face by Muslims tends to be dramatically more violent.

Even though millions upon millions of Muslims do not engage in terrorism.

Financial and moral support is not any different.

The way the last conflict played out had Hezbollah, which I do not consider a terrorist organization (for reasons explicitly stated on my blog)

Which is an absolute moral failure on your part.

Okay, so Muslims aren't doing anything that Christians have done in the past, whatever; but they (Christians) might be doing one or two things that Muslims are doing in the present, and I don't recall any Muslim country doing things that this ostensibly "Christian" country are currently doing -- with the exception of Iraq. Saddam did indeed attack a small country (Kuwait) that had not attacked it.

Missed the Afghan/Pakistan war, eh?

I haven't seen Christian states committing genocide. I can name SEVERAL Muslim states that have done so.

My final judgement (pun not intended) is that Christian Wahabism is no more welcome than Muslim Wahabism, which is what we got, frankly. And if you're an agnostic, you must agree that the fundementalist urge, wherever you find it, is wrong and reprehensible.

You are patently fucking moronic.

And an utterly pro-appeasement type. Your previous claims otherwise are disproven by this inane gibberish you posted.

"Christian Wahhabism"? Where the hell are the mass killing of Arabs for worshipping differently? Where is the mass killing of OTHER Christians for not worshipping as one sect believes they should?

IT. DOES. NOT. EXIST.

People like you are why nobody can take the left seriously.

I just don't think West, led by the Bush administration has the sensitivity and form of recent experience (Iraq and Lebanon) to pull it off, and the results will probably be that we will continue to lose influential Muslim moderates like Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in an increasing polarized situation

If I actually put up quotes from him, you'd be stunned what passes for "moderate" in this realm. Is he better than the alternatives? Arguably. But a theocracy is the worst possible solution.
-=Mike

Looks like Astigfa and Stev... (Below threshold)
epador:

Looks like Astigfa and Steve Crickmore are hogging a huge Joint. Or enjoying the same sliced peyote on their salad.

Must be pretty nice stuff.

Let me know when and if you come back to reality.

Astigafa, You are an asshat... (Below threshold)
914:

Astigafa, You are an asshat and a halfwit in one! lol

Cyberludite,Ros El... (Below threshold)

Cyberludite,

Ros El Yusuf is, in fact, an Egyptian (and I'm Egyptian) magazine. Though in its coverage of Egyptian politics (and since it's a state owned magazine) it's reporters spew absolute rubbish, I'll take their reporting at face value.

Yes, those are the the people I wish to support. Is it just me or is there this implied assumption that if I supported Hezbollah in its last war, then I must support them at absolutely everything they do.

Hezbollah didn't use children during the past war. The reason I can say this, even though I WASN'T THERE (much like the rest of you), with a bit of conviction, is that no one reported it. Not even all the News Media that Hezbollah themselves discredit (not saying I do, just that Hezbollah does).

That said, again, I continue to support them against any effort they undertake against Israel. They kidnapped two soldiers, eh? Well, Israel has been occupying parts of Lebanon since 1982.

Why is it that history starts 1-2 months, or years, ago for you? Israel occupied quite a large tract fo Lebanon until the year 2000. They still occupy the Shebaa farms. I don't want Hezbollah to come to political power, if I may use the term, more than any hardcore secular in the Middle East does.

BUT, AGAIN, I will continue to support them against Israel, as long as Israel occupies Lebanese Land.

Oh! I'm also sure you believe that all the Lebanese prisoners held by Israel are all terrorists and war mongers etc etc. Don't you? What a joke!

JL.,

I didn't say that they weren't Muslim enough, where on earth did you get that from?! What I was saying is that even though there are Iranian Muslims and I, along with many other Egyptians, are Muslims, we don't identify with each other as one people. Not at all.

In fact, Iran has heavy beef with Arabs in general. Check out your Persian/Arabian gulf political history and the going-ons at the moment. BUT STILL, since it's Iran we're talking about, I support Iran's use of peaceful Nuclear Technology. Of course I do! There is nothing anywhere, in any treaty or agreement, that says they can't use Nuclear technology for just that.

Asking them to suspend Uranium enrichment is like two countries who are at war decide to have an exchange of prisoners. Then one of them tells the other: Alrighty then, we'll start negotiating numbers, but you release all our prisoners first. Yeah. Right.

Oyster,

The statement which included Syria was meant as an EXAGGERATION. What? You think Japan will attack Lebanon anytime in the next BILLION YEARS?! I don't approve or disapprove of the connection. Let me reiterate, I support Hezbollah's fight against the Israeli aggressor. I don't mind where they get their funds, arms, weapons etc etc from.

The United States gives weapons and munitions to Israel. You didn't find me saying: That's NOT FAIR! or The United States is Evil because it does that! or The United States is the one killing all those Lebanese civilians!

Not at all.

As a former Political Science Student, I understand the strategic interests of the United States and I understand that Israel are their strategic ally. They will thus naturally give them arms and munitions. Furthermore, Hezbollah is, if you will, Syria's proxy because they themselves cannot get into what is termed a Regular War with the Israelis. I'm okay with that as well.

I don't see the United States, Syria, Iran, Great Britain, Hezbollah or any of these political players as benevelont entities whose direction in politics I should follow dogmatically. Nope. Not me.

I understand why they're doing this. Were I the leader, President, or what have you of any country, I would be looking for my country's well-being and personal advancement, just as most (if not all) countries/states in the world are doing now. It's really that simple.

That I wouldn't want people to die in the process, or have the suffering of the poor alleviated, etc etc are just bonuses that I can choose/not choose to add to my policy.

Ken.,

When the US and French marines were attacked, it was because someone didn't believe that they were there to perserve the peace. That's one. Hezbollah, who are NOT a terrorist organization, obviously believed that the Christian US and France would come to the aid of the Lebanese Brigades (one of the Maronite factions in the Lebanese civil war). I honestly have no opinion on that matter. I know it happened. I know the details of what lead to the incident, but I don't know the specific reasoning (other than to force the Marines to leave, which they did) behind the action.

Please keep in mind that this organization you call terrorist has not attacked any entity/organization/nationality outside the Lebanese border (although of all supposed "terrorist" organizations, they are one of the msot funded and capable). They have not forced themselves on anyone else's land.

It's strange that this drivel of "hiding within the civilian population" keeps coming mostly from Israeli commanders and politicians. There are articles, written by Americans, who say that Hezbollah SPECIFICALLY stay out of the way of civilians, for fear of informants! Hezbollah has, in Lebanon - which I've visited, repeatedly mentioned through its political branch that they have learned the lessons taught to the world historically about how an entity and organization like them should fight a war like that.

Lessons No. ONE:
1. Stay away from civilians as much as possible because they can be bribed, tortured, coerced into giving information to the enemy about yoru whereabouts, strength and numbers.

But of course, the majority of you would believe that since they are Muslims, or maybe Arabs, or just Middle Eastern, they do not understand anything on that or about that. That they are mindless rabble.

You know what? Fine.

Seems to me that they were able to deny Israel its announced wartime strategic goals and were, according to that strange myth spewed by many pro-Israeli politicians, bloggers, human beings in general, "saved by the SC RES 1701". Right.

You just go on believing that people, if you already do.

Apparently the rabble know how to thing, plan and strategize. I should think it highly amusing if Israel vacates all occupied Lebanese land and... Hezbollah disbands.

Such a simple solution... but I guess the Israelis are too stubborn. Oh. Excuse me. Right. They won't "bow to terrorism and terrorists".

Well then, enjoy the war and carnage is all I can say. *shrug*

You seem to want it.

Jay - I agree with most of ... (Below threshold)
Ric:

Jay - I agree with most of what you posted except I disagree with the definitions of "extreme" or "moderate" Muslims you are applying.

Folks like to apply the "extreme" or "radical" label to those that participate in or support groups like Hamas or Hizbollah. In actuality, a Hizbollah member isn't extreme or radical, only "devout". They read their books, take it to heart, and follow the instructions provided, religiously.

Folks apply the moderate label to the Muslim that is not a member of a group like Hizbollah or Hamas. This one is either a devout Muslim engaged in politically correct mis-information (read propaganda) about Islam, or one ignorant of what Islam actually teaches. An example in the mis-information category would be CAIR or Middle Eastern Studies enclaves in American Universities.

The ignorant one can be identified when they tell you that Mo taught "peace and tolerance".

Faisal, nice job defending ... (Below threshold)

Faisal, nice job defending your feelings about Syria's support of Hizballah in every which way but to address one single point I brought up. You, too, avoid the fact that Syria continues to abet a group which operates to its host nation's detriment. You speak of Lebanon as if it were only an aside. Let us also remember (another point you neglect to acknowledge in your arguments) the event that started this "Israeli aggression".

This argument was likely pointless from the beginning. It is even more pointless now. Good day, sir.

Why is it that history s... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Why is it that history starts 1-2 months, or years, ago for you? Israel occupied quite a large tract fo Lebanon until the year 2000. They still occupy the Shebaa farms. I don't want Hezbollah to come to political power, if I may use the term, more than any hardcore secular in the Middle East does.

Why is the constant provocation of Israel always forgotten by you? You always seem to act as if NOTHING was done to Israel to cause any of these problems.

As for using children, they FIRE ROCKETS FROM APARTMENT COMPLEXES WITH CHILDREN IN THEM.

In a society with any semblance of sophistication, this would be viewed as being "bad". For you, though, it's not terribly note-worthy.

You think Japan will attack Lebanon anytime in the next BILLION YEARS?!

Seeing as how Japan officially has no army, no, they likely will not.

Let me reiterate, I support Hezbollah's fight against the Israeli aggressor. I don't mind where they get their funds, arms, weapons etc etc from.

Israel ISN'T the aggressor. If your assorted brethren in that God-forsaken hellhole left them alone, there'd be no violence.

If the Muslims disarmed, there'd be peace.
If Israel disarmed, there'd be a Holocaust.

Thus, the Muslims, clearly, are the problem. Have always been the problem and always will be the problem.

Asking them to suspend Uranium enrichment is like two countries who are at war decide to have an exchange of prisoners. Then one of them tells the other: Alrighty then, we'll start negotiating numbers, but you release all our prisoners first. Yeah. Right.

Then we should bomb every reactor or building that looks like it could be a reactor. The sub-human thugs who populate those governments can't be trusted with pop-guns, much less nukes.

That I wouldn't want people to die in the process, or have the suffering of the poor alleviated, etc etc are just bonuses that I can choose/not choose to add to my policy.

Except you clearly want JEWS to die. You're not even all that subtle about it.

Hezbollah, who are NOT a terrorist organization, obviously believed that the Christian US and France would come to the aid of the Lebanese Brigades (one of the Maronite factions in the Lebanese civil war).

Sentiments like this are why I'm beginning to realize that trying to negotitate with Muslims is an utter waste of time. There is NO moral compass whatsoever. When we say "Why don't Muslims condemn these atrocities" --- people like YOU come in and not only don't condemn them, but JUSTIFY them.

Truly horrifying. Not remotely surprising giving the never-ending history of brutality that IS Islam, but still horrifying.

Who cares if a group bombs discoes or pizza parlors? They're only killing Jews and they hardly matter, right?

Right?

Please keep in mind that this organization you call terrorist has not attacked any entity/organization/nationality outside the Lebanese border (although of all supposed "terrorist" organizations, they are one of the msot funded and capable). They have not forced themselves on anyone else's land.

They've attacked Israel. They killed a lot of Americans. There is not a hot enough place in the middle of Hell for those sub-human thugs.

It's strange that this drivel of "hiding within the civilian population" keeps coming mostly from Israeli commanders and politicians.

And anybody who WATCHES the news.

Notice how the IDF wears UNIFORMS? It's for a reason.

Every single civilian death is solely the fault of those sub-human terrorists in Hezbollah.

I'd say the group bastardized the Islamic faith, but that'd be an utter lie. Violence, betrayal, and hatred are 3 of the 5 basic pillars of Islam, along with conversions at gunpoint and brutal misogyny.

Congrats on a faith with no redeeming qualities.

Seems to me that they were able to deny Israel its announced wartime strategic goals and were, according to that strange myth spewed by many pro-Israeli politicians, bloggers, human beings in general, "saved by the SC RES 1701". Right.

I'll be blunt: at this point, there is nothing Israel could do to its neighbors that I'd condemn. Your side has shown that it cannot be trusted and that the cult of Death only wishes to slaughter more and more people.

Which is precisely how Mohammad wanted it.
-=Mike

Islamic Fascists have the a... (Below threshold)

Islamic Fascists have the advantage of pursuing an offensive action without ever having to defend an actual state with borders. That's quite an advantage.

They also have the advantage of representing a worldwide religion while maintaining order and quelling dissent through terror and fear.

The next giant step is to go beyond striking from the shadows and establishing a presence and a method of maintaining order is an actual geographical area. When they make that step, they will face as much violence from within as without. They will reap what they have sown.

And with a nuclear strike anywhere in Europe, they may finally achieve the impossible... namely, forcing the united Europe into actually establishing and maintaining a big-league military.

Islam will not win. Unfortunately, if Israel does not address the Iranian threat, Israel may cease to exist.




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