Deb G: This isn't an attack... just an observation.

I don't think you are targeted because you are female. I don't think anyone is jealous of you either but by always using that as your defense coupled with some form of "LOL.... Hahahahaha, ROFLMAO, etc" kind of paints a bullseye on you.

Personally, I've enjoyed reading your posts which discuss JM but I feel the DCA posts are the same tactic for each attack... "break right, chaff chaff, flare flare". Its now become a predictable response that probably entertains your provokers.

If you really want the folks to back off then don't answer absurd attacks... or rather change tactics.

Just an observation.

From Deb G. on Oct 3 to Sickening "show me ONE post of mine which states that someone else is WRONG - yup, didn't think so, there are NONE LOL......"

From Deb G. later on Oct 3 to Jethro "fun again, your above theories on me are WRONG WRONG WRONG"

Here is a link stating she is going before a grand jury today cause she failed a lie detector

http://mms.tveyes.com/Transcript.asp?StationID=1335&DateTime=10%2F03%2F06+05%3A27%3A55&Term=Air+Force&PlayClip=TRUE

Reading an article that when Jill went missing, Josh did not want to go over there and help them find his wife. I can't help but wonder if he knew something. Article states they had a talk about "family matters" before she went shopping. I would think a husband would jump to go look for his wife especially being OSI.

Still trying to find out if they went on their honeymoon. Anyone know???

The AFOSI was not allowed to conduct a thorough investigation or debrief Jill (nor were local Kyrgyz officials) because they were preempted by the State Department.
Author: Buster

Most interesting as the Department of the Air Force cannot abandon or avoid its responsibility of defining and sustaining basic roles and rules of conduct without the potential collapse of discipline among the uniformed members of its ranks.

The State Department may have control of investigating the event and all its situations and circumstances, but the Department of the Air Force has jurisdiction of determining responsibility and accountability for deeds done by its military members. The purpose of military law (which is codified by Congress) is to promote justice, to assist in maintaining good order and discipline in the armed forces, to promote efficiency and effectiveness in the military establishment, and thereby to strengthen the national security of the United States. While Senior and Top Air Force leaders may at this time be frustrated to act, the time to perform their duties pertinent to military law will eventually arrive and I'm sure members of the OSI will get to do a few interviews and review any and all of the investigation done by the State Department. Her lawyer's certainly will when the judicial process begins to determine distinctions between intentional and unintentional behavior, degrees of culpability, and assignments of punishment.

Eventually the Department of the Air Force will need to decide if Major Metzger should be held responsible for any of her behaviors and actions and this can not merely be asserted, it must be reasonably shown why the should and shouldn't decisions were made.

Perhaps OSI and Senior Air Force leadership are frustrated by the State Department having lead investigative control in the matter of Major Metzger's disappearance and reappearance but the Air Force will have access to what is needed to unravel this specific mystery when it comes time to assign blame or praise for behavior and actions and determine the appropriate consequences.

Read an article today which has military stating Josh specifically did not want to go to help search for his wife. Being OSI in the military, you would think he would want to. He stated he was on the phone with Jill before going shopping and they talked about "family matters" - can't help but think Josh knew his wife was not abducted.....patiently waiting for someone to say something...

Yippee! I get to be the first of the next 1,400!

Some marginally related news from http://enews.ferghana.ru/
Ombudsman suggests a transfer of the US AF Base from Bishkek to Osh
04.10.2006 10:34 msk

Kyrgyz Ombudsman Tursunbai Bakir uulu suggests a transfer of the Gansi AF Base from the Bishkek airport Manas to Osh.

Bakir uulu maintains that the international coalition established the AF base in Kyrgyzstan to fight terrorism in Afghanistan, and Osh is much closer to this country than Bishkek. The ombudsman also believes that it should be done because AF base servicemen enjoy diplomatic immunity and get off the hook whenever something untoward happens. Substantiating the suggestion, Bakir uulu referred to the recent collision of a civilian board and an aircraft in Manas.

The ombudsman claims that he is bombarded with complaints from the Kyrgyz employed on the base - women battered by officers of the US Army and men fired despite the demands of the Labor Code of Kyrgyzstan. Numerous complaints are made by the locals who are affected by spillage of aviation fuel from US aircraft.

Bakir uulu appealed to Marat Sultanov, Chairman of the Jogorku Kenesh [national parliament], to revise the Gansi AF Base treaty with the international counter-terrorism coalition.

Buster,

I apologize for stomping on your username...that was not my intent, but I needed a login, and that sprang to mind. I was late to the fight, but just couldn't stand the idiocy any more....

Was posted in
http://op-for.com/2006/09/pray_for_maj_metzger.html blog.

I've been stationed and Manas Air Base and have been to the Tsum Market countless times. The Kyrgyz people are a decent people and conditions are safe. We have a huge American ExPat community there. Ok, here's what happened. Our good Major had a fling behind her husband's back while assigned to Manas and got knocked up. She wanted to have an abortion before she returned home. She sought the help of a Manas Air Base Third Country National (TCN) employee thinking she could undergo a same day outpatient abortion. It didn't happen as planned. She experienced complications. The doctor wouldn't release her. She panicked and faked her abduction once she realized she wouldn't make Col Reese's stupidly imposed 22:00 hour curfew. That's what happened. Period. She's embarrased her nation and in the process, she has strained relations with the American Embassy in Bishkek and the Kyrgyz Ministry of Interior. Next time I go to Kyrgyzstan I'll be scorned by the local population and the Ministry officials and businessmen with whom I must interact. Thanks Jill Metzger. If the Air Force has any sense of integrity and honor, they'll throw the UCMJ book at her - Adultery, Conduct unbecoming, Unauthorized Absence. Her career is over. What a dumbass. No wonder the Air Force made her a Personnel Officer. She might be a champion marathoner, but she can't run away from this idiotic episode.

Lt Col "In the Know" O · October 4, 2006 07:47 PM

DM: Saying Jethro was WRONG WRONG WRONG was meant that he/she was WRONG about ME ME ME. I meant I have NEVER posted that someone's theory about Jill Metzger has ever been WRONG. I respect what others have to say, whether it be for or against her and I have never said anyone's theories or opinions have ever been wrong. Saying to Jeth about being wrong about me was totally different. He was wrong, about me, and I am not the one here to be proven right or wrong. So, yes, I do get attacked for rather absurd writings - the same writings others do. I can say someone is wrong about me becauase I know me, however, I have no right, no business and no solid facts to say anyone is wrong about Jill Metzger's situation.

IKJ: I put LOL, ROFL, et al because I do truly think it is FUNNY and SILLY that some attack me the way they do. I really do. I take no offense to anything here, just typing away some wasted minutes and finger power replying to some. I appreciate your observation, however, don't really need one. I don't care why others attack me or anyone, just find it baffling and curious. Not a big deal really. Pointless to do it.

Buster2: LOL Was wondering who you were - thanks for the cover. You can come into our foxhole anytime!

Kuba: Again, I commend your passion on this situation and finding that piece of info! I have to wonder if anyone who had something to do with her disappearance will eventually talk about it.

Kuba/ JHater,

Nice find: You know, sometimes the most obvious theory REALLY IS the correct one.

It looks as if the UCMJ process has begun.

Clarification: I'm not intending to say that the posts above are the smoking gun we've been looking for. My bad for striking the gavel of conclusion.

Let the conspiracy theories continue!

Question to those with an Air Force Background - even if Josh had wanted to go to Kyrgyzstan to search for Jill, would the Air Force have allowed this?

It's been suggested that Josh knew something the rest of us didn't during Jill's disappearance. Personally I don't think that Josh knew anything more about his wife than we did at the time. In his interview with the Early Show he said ---
"We're going to stay here," he said. "I believe that my place is here with my family. ... I believe in our government to get things done to solve this case. I think there's about 20 highly skilled, highly trained, experienced agents over there right now rattling cages and looking for her. I believe that my efforts here would be better served honoring Jill's memory." I was particularly struck by that last line when I first saw the interview because it sounds like he thinks she is dead. In such a stressful situation, while she was missing it may have been easier to think she was dead than to think about all the horrible possibilities if she were alive, but I think this line shows that he did NOT know anything.

DM: I agree. That last line leads one to believe he thought she was dead. You would have to think too that if Josh KNEW she might have done something, he probably would have talked in order to avoid the hefty search for her....

still sticking with the abortion theory....

DM-

The AF would NOT allow Josh to go to K-stan if he wanted to (for several reasons).

I agree w/ you. At the time, I don't believe he knew anything.

Well... I see people have found their way to the new conference room.. I'm glad you could all make it.

Put your coffee cups down.. time for a poll.. ahhh.. forget it! Let's just get right down to business.

So... in order of importance:

a...what do you THINK about the Grand Jury deal-ee-o?

b...and what's this I hear about a failed lie detector test?

and.... finally

c...what are the implications of what Ombudsman Tursunbai Bakir uulu had to say? (I've met this guy, btw, sat down to a face-2-face with him) [for Kuba: his office is on the 2nd floor of the bldg right across from the Militia station on Moskowskaya]

Wizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Glad to see you back! Always smile reading your posts....

:-)

Wiz:

a. either the wizbang posters' letter writing campaign worked (no, not really) or the AF was doing a thorogh and fair investigation and the time has now come such a "deal-ee-o". (yes, that's it)

b. standard ops for AFOSI... maybe Josh did it.

c. I think its just normal PR opportunity for local gov't. US presence in Bishkek (in my opinion) has done a lot more good than harm (at least economically). I believe that US- K-Stan relations have grown and remained stable enough that these few "hiccups" will not have a lasting affect... but sillier things have happened.

I FEEL... like having a beer.

WizBanger - Wanted to tell you that I'm not avoiding responding to your recent long post to me, just taking some time to THINK about it.

Deb--------

You loooook great today!!! Gotta say, gurl, if I were 50 years younger... you'd be taking me to kindergarden.. HA!!!

Crap... where's the spell checker? Sorry about that.

BTW: for the 30,000 instances it was used on the previous comment board... the word is "MOOT"... not "MUTE".

ahhh forget it... its a mute point anyway.... no, moot.

Wiz: LOL A. I am not as young as you think B. I picture you an older retired Vietnam Vet - could be wrong on that as I don't know you or have all your info. C. Your wife would be really upset with me and I'm not into that! However, I love your posts and your character and personality - a welcome and refreshing visual....

and don't you ever leave my foxhole!!!

ikj: that was funny. You ok today? little things seem to be bothering you so I am passing you that beer you wanted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

a bit curious about the "my bad" you used...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ah, forget it

Deb:

actually, I'm bit behing the LD Max curve... aka power curve. Broke my arm last night and am floating on cloud percocet. Thanks for the beer offer but my wife already put a big stop to that.

I put in the "My bad" because in my post prior to that, it read as if I had concluded the truth of the stories based on Kuba and JHater's posts. (Although that is indeed what I think happened).

ikj: OUCH! Well then two beers for you - nothing wrong with cyber beer! Unless you can emotionally think yourself to slobberish drunkeness from it!

I think that is what happened too. Logical enough...

I know I have asked this before, but does anyone know if Jill went on her honeymoon? I don't think she did...Af might not have allowed that given the investigation they are doing.

I think my anonymous lurker friend said that she was not on leave (ie no honeymoon mon)... I'm not certain that is exactly what I heard though.

Anonymous lurker friend? are you there?

OK... gotta go for tonight. I just told my wife that I've got a "rocket in my pocket" and I'm HOPING she'll enter into a trance.

awww who am I fooling... I'll be alseep before my head hits the pillow.

IKJ: :-) maybe she will follow you into the bedroom, BE CAREFUL, those pocket induced trances will eventually lead to you getting your ars kicked before she escapes!!

ain't that the truth! c'ya later

DM........

Don't worry about the response.. I'm not here to tell you 'what' to think. You, and you alone, have to determine that.

But, don't be afraid to hold your ground. This is not a life and death situation here. We, or at least I, gather here to discuss this event. So far I haven't had to back off anything that I have laid out. Lucky? Maybe... but my luck started when I looked at what happened, what was reported, and what I knew... and started the thinking process.

Some people on another forum came right out and told me that I was full of crap.. that was almost a month ago. I'll be paying a 'visit' there again. Not so much to say 'I told you so', but to see where they are in their thinking now.

Wiz: I agree with you. Many of us were bashed hard for our thoughts on Metzger's situation and the fact we were posting anything negative at all in regards to not believing her story. I too wonder what they think now. I'm not one to say "I told you so", but it sounds like that might be exactly what I will say and so will many others.....will be interesting. Would really just like to see the truth come out and reprimand made. We would never allow other military to get away with something like this. Many people, integrity and ethnicity were put on the line because of this reported kidnapping....punishment is deserved here so it does NOT happen again.

I'm just patiently waiting for "the truth"...

Considering the enlarging debate on who knew what and who knew when of Florida Rep. Mark Foley, it would be most interesting what collateral inquiries into Major Metzger's immediate chain-of-command and most specifically those who were her Rater's on her OPR's would reveal. Especially if it is revealed the pattern of misbehavior existed at previous assignments and was not addressed appropriately by the chain-of-command.

The most favored scenario for cause of disappearance and 4-day reappearance is pregnancy and need to permanently conceal it by having an abortion. While a mother cannot be prosecuted under the UCMJ for deciding to have an abortion and having an abortion; there is in the UCMJ, Article 134-Self injury without intent to avoid service. Article 134 requires that the offense was committed (in time of
war) (in a hostile fire pay zone). This offense is characterized by intentional self-injury under such circumstances as prejudice good order and discipline or discredit the armed forces. It is not required that the accused be unable to perform duties, or that the accused actually be absent from his or her place of duty as a result of the injury.

This article opens up a very large catch-22 for the Department of Defense and it will be most interesting to see if the Air Force considers prosecuting Major Metzger under this article or avoids doing so as if it is the plaque. This article and what is done about it in this situation will definitely determine if Air Force leadership has integrity and moral courage.

Certain offenses in a time-of-war carry greater maximum punishments to include death and AWOL is one such offence carrying a maximum punishment of death. A state of war need not be declared by Congress, nor is a formal declaration required. A war situation can result from the fact our armed forces are engaged in actual combat against an organized armed enemy. We are in Afghanistan and Iraq conducting the Global Was on Terrorism and actual combat against an organized enemy is happening.

It is clear Major Metzger was deployed to a forward location in Kyrgyzstan supporting combat operations in Afghanistan and that the location was within the combat command Area of Responsibility (AOR) and that she was being paid imminent danger pay for providing direct support to the Afghanistan combat zone and eligible for combat zone tax relief. I would say in my opinion Article 134-Self Injury without intent to avoid service is an appropriate article and that time-of-war needs to be fully explored by the court in determining the appropriate punishments.

Appropriate UCMJ articles appear to be:

Article 86 Unauthorized Absence

Article 92 Failure to Obey Order or Regulation

Article 107 False Official Statements

Article 133 Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer and a Gentleman

Article 134 Adultery

Article 134 False Swearing

Article 134 Fraternization

Article 134 Self Injury without intent to avoid service

Article 134 Testify: Wrongful Refusal

Johca: Excellent info! Well done. Now, let's see if they use it. The words integrity and courage stuck out clearly - WHO will have the integrity and courage to insist on the punishment....stay tuned.

WizBanger Poster -- any more thoughts/info on the base relocation? Interesting that you've met the ombudsman. Is he one of the ones calling for the capital to also be relocated to Osh?

ijosha---------

Anyone who has experienced military 'residents' in their town or city knows that one ends up with a two-headed monster at the door.

First, it's nice to have a complex that is going to provide additional jobs for people and a revenue cow for local businesses. But, secondly, military are military..and their money has to be spent somewhere. That normally ends up at the local bars... not the local libraries. I suppose, it would be the best of both worlds if that were the case. Historically, it has proven to be a detriment for a community.

So, despite the good idea of moving it to Osh which is in the southern part of the Republic, it's not going to happen! They like the money where it's at. Furthermore, the US military would be very much opposed to it. LOTs of money has been, and is being, invested into Ganci.. Who knows, one day that will be the Military Retirement capital of the world. PX/BX, Hospital, Commisary, High School, the works... The Ramstein AFB of Central Asia!!!

As to moving the Capital from Bishkek to Osh.. That was not his idea, and it really doesn't matter whose idea it was.. it's not going to grow wings and fly. The primary reason being that it would put them just that much closer to the radicals. I'm not sure if you have read my posts about the place... but, the people of Bishkek are nice people. Also, the political bent in Osh doesn't necessarily fit in with the popular agenda in the North. WON'T HAPPEN!

Well, I am SHOCKED at the information above about Jill failing a polygraph, if in fact it's true. Not shocked that she failed, but SHOCKED that she apparently has CONTINUED to think she can get away with lying. Surely she must realize that there are way too many people involved now-- witnesses, police, investigators, husband-- that she can't continue to lie her way out of trouble. A panicky lie in a panicky situation I can imagine; but persistence in that lie? I can't imagine. I would have thought she'd have 'fessed up to everything by the time she got to Germany. I mean, if the pregnancy situation was true, that would have been apparent to everyone involved. Does that mean she said, "Well yeah, I'm pregnant, but that doesn't have anything to do with my kidnapping?" or did she say "Well yeah, I did go ahead and get an abortion, but THEN I got kidnapped?"
It will be very interesting.
How much will the public be able to access a grand jury hearing?

VR:

Apparently, she's still lying to at least her husband as well. She was for sure, when we saw the news article about their phone conversation.

He askd her if she was hurt and she replied that I was told not to talk about that.

I think you guys really did a lot to keep this in the public eye. The major media concerns are still not covering it.

Johca: Absolutely agree with your statement above with regard to the investigation, legal proceedings, and discovery process by her defense counsel. I thought it was a tad odd when it was first relayed to me but I'll assume it was/is due to the potential for political fallout. I'm sure more hardened facts will begin to filter out in the not too distant future.
I would also like to apologize for my barbs, posted much earlier, with regard to SERE. I'd been through the AF course years ago and am actually looking at having to attend an additional course in Brunswick. Not something I'm looking forward to at this point in my career.

Buster2: No worries and welcome to the discussion. It's an old nickname from when I was a little kid and had a little Dutch-boy hair-don't.

Gh---------

So, you really think this little outpost in cyberspace, manned by a contingent of outcast renegades was capable of such a feat????

Wonders never cease!!!

As a long time lurker, who's a goldbricker and uses work time and assets to follow this blog and proud of it.

My response would be YES!!!!

Hey the only place to get any news real, supposed or just plain made up was here.

Gh...

In that case, I suggest you change you moniker to GoldBricker.. That would be more befitting a member of this organization.

Welcome to the unit... pull up a chair, have a beer or coffee, grab your favorite cigar out of that box in the corner... and read the your packet.

Your assignment, should you choose to accept it....

GoldBricker....

I failed to mention that I admire your character.. Despite the ridicule and harrassment you have opened yourself up to, you were honest. Thanks!!

Now, let's get back to work... ahhmmm.. back to what we were doing.

Talking to an AF friend who said there are some folks at Manas who know what happened to Jill. He did not have any info., however, has heard this. Of course, it could all be rumor, however, one would have to think that if someone knows at Manas exactly what happened and the truth perhaps eventually it will come out....

OOOOHhhhh.. NOW I GET IT!!!

Deb G.. now I know...

dhall.. this person is a Marine!!!!

You know from dhall of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..

So, if I follow this correctly.. there's got to be a code in here some where........

Wiz: I love you man!

Excuse me for being off topic, but I wonder if the following initials who are regulars to this site are really the following people??

GH: Goldie Hawn is that you???

VR: Valerie Roberts is that you???

Julie: Oh wow, Julie Andrews. Wait, thought she was dead.

Buster: Buster Brown, nice to see you again.

I remember a Ron in here too, must be Ron Howard!!!!! I think he was a Captain in the Army at Bragg but is a Major now....

Don:

You know Metzger really should have sold the movie and book rights to this. I wonder who would play her. Jennie Garth maybe?

This sounds like a Sunday CBS movie doesn't it?

Strange feeling that info. on Metzger is coming soon....very curious....this should be a book, I agree....

Did anybody ever find out if Metzger went on her honeymoon? Her husband must be climbing the walls.

I was told Jill did not go on her honeymoon. Hearsay, third party, not completely factual so I myself don't know for sure....info. coming from AF Officer.

Kuba: Where are you?? You usually bring in some great updates....patiently waiting....

Just a reminder

Its nearing the holy time of "Rama-Hooters". A sacred period when those of my "Order" assemble for the ceremonial and time honored sacrifice of the grey matter. Ultimately, we ascend to a "TRANCE LIKE" state

----with pocket bombs-------

as we pay homage to our pagan deity.

Our spiritual hostess's guide us through this time in their owlish robes, to ensure we finish the ritual refreshed and and cleansed of sins as we prepare to move forward in life with a sense of decadence and indulgence.

Have a great weekend,

Pete

Ooophs,

I meant "without pocket bombs" in my last post.

sorry for the typo.

Pete

pete: lol

Was told by AF friend about 10 minutes ago that we should be hearing more about the Metzger situation within the next week....patiently waiting.

Disclaimer: Anything being typed here is hearsay and I have no valid facts to prove this will happen, just hearing it. Now, regarding the actual theories, well, that is a personal opinion and not solid either, but given all the pieces of the puzzle, it is starting to fit together really nicely, thus, will stick to abortion theory....

So... does Kim Jong Il have bomb in his pocket or is he just lookin' for some attention?

I think he had a hard time getting good authentic Bavarian beer and brauts for Oktoberfest this year and is treatening a nuclear test... unless, say a certain "shipment" arrives from Munich?

Guesses?

Happy Chusok!

My search skills must be in need of some fine tuning, because I keep on coming up with '0' current hits for Jill Metzger in the NEWS department.

IKJ........

How's the arm?

A little painful...thanks for asking. Doc says it's a "radial head fracture". Tons of fun!

Deb-G,

Thanks, I am glad you understand that levity is sometimes the best COA in these trying times.

Pete

My search skills must be in need of some fine tuning, because I keep on coming up with '0' current hits for Jill Metzger in the NEWS department.

Posted by: WizBanger Poster Mine too

However, I'm not surprised at all and all though I'm very curious to know what truly happened it is better that the truth if what happen be made public as accurate and complete as possible rather than inaccurate and incomplete. I can wait as I never expected much due to the complexity and potential collateral political and social discussion it can generate until mid-October anyway.

Definitely the worst medical condition to seek non-military provided medical treatment at the wrong time and wrong place and then choosing a fraudulent (criminally deceitful hoax) means against the U.S. Government to conceal it. I really don't think many grasp all the very significant legal complexities of this incident.

Johca: I agree. This, I believe, will be BIG... it may or may not be big news but I'm thinking the US Gov't vs. Maj Jill Metzger will be huge.

Pete:

"COA".... spoken like a true staff officer!

Johca ------------

I really don't think many grasp all the very significant legal complexities of this incident.
---------------------------------

That's the problem with many of the "I'm Jill's Fan Club" posters who come in here and want to do their honor, valor, above reproach, skit for Major Metzger.

If we can go with the illicit pregnancy thread.. the cheer leading squad has a 'civilian' mindset which would allow for a lapse in moral character and still hold the job of Head Honcho of Human Resources. They just can't seem to get their arms around the reality of Military Life and what a Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine is subject to under UCMJ, in addition to all the Civilian laws.

So, if nothing else, this may serve to 'educate' the populace with regard to the 'added' bonus of military life.

I also agree that the IMPLICATIONS of her antics aren't even on the radar of these Metzger supporters. It's almost like they're saying..."Gee.. what's the big deal, all she did was 'go missing' for a little while, what she does with her body is her business"

And that, my friend is what really TORQUES me up.. I don't like calling idiots - IDIOTS - because it's spitting in the wind.. But the frustration of having to hear it over and over again from them becomes taxing...

I also notice that not much has been said on the 'other' forum. BTW.. your advice to the ROTC kid was dead center.

Wiz, want to share the other forum link? If not, no worries. Its been slow here lately.

ikj-------------

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/37919558

you'll have to go to page two - I believe - to find the thread.. actually there are two threads.. got pretty hot there for a while.. I left.. but I will be posting more later..

Thanks wiz... I'll check it out for a few before I call it a night here.

ikj....

Here are the posts..

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/37919558/m/9840097580001

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/37919558/m/8700083780001

Johca ------------

When I think about the ROTC kid.. this is the exact scenario which can become a reality if that 'perceived' behavior isn't nipped..

Here's a kid who is just starting out and is struggling with the concept of doing the right thing. So much so, that he/she has to ask for advice to ensure that his/her instinct is headed true north.

One.. doing the right thing will reinforce the quality of leadership needed in todays military, and two, if the instinct is correct, may prevent an 'undesirable' from progressing into further questionable activity.

Had the job been done with Metzger when she was displaying these traits, we would probably not be sitting here having this discussion!!

Wiz,

Thanks.... Johca, good posts. I don't think I've got it in me to go thru that whole discussion on the other forum. (I thought I did, but nope... I don't).

Percocet is kicking in! I'm going to go apologize to my Harley (again).

For anyone who's out of the loop, Wizbanger to Johca above is referring to a thread called "What are your thoughts on this? (possibly controversial)" on the military forum website http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/37919558

DM---------

Thanks.. should'a opened it up for everyone to read..

ikj: Hope your arm is doing well and your wife did not kick butt the other night

Pete: Well said

Wizzzzzzz: Agreed, you're the man

A Jill Metzger update as of today... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,218323,00.html

All,

Sorry, I hit "post" a bit too soon... Anyhow, I just happened upon your thread a few days ago. I hope you don't mind me intruding, but I thought the above story may be interesting to some of you.

Mooney: THANKS FOR THAT ARTICLE! Welcome to the room. Caution: It gets hot in here sometimes.

That is exactly what is needed. AUTHORITIES investigating other than the AF - PERFECT!

p.s. ok, done cleaning up a bit in here - phew - taking out the trash can be exhausting :-)

Public Announcement #401-06

Calling all CheerLeaders.. A new group of CheerLeaders is being recruited for the Jill Metzger Defense Detail.. All prospective applicants and candidates are requested to apply in person. Prior members of the Metzger Cheer Leaders of America, and the St Thomas Hospital for the Criminally Insane (which btw, is where the Cheer Leaders reside)are encouraged to reapply. Personal knowledge of, or acquaintance with, Jill Metzger is not mandatory. You will be given 'The Book of Metzger Cheers' from which you can recite the chants. Some familiarity with the English language is mandatory.

Due to the abrupt departure of the previous contingent of supporters, the team has been left without leadership. A nominal 'supporter fee' will be paid by the Metzger Glee Club for your participation.

It is indeed, unfortunate that she has been abandoned by the previous support team. Like mushrooms, they left just as quickly as they sprouted.

Rehead Infidel... where are you when we need you?????

Wiz: You have got to be one of the most clever persons I have seen, err heard ah read!

That was.....PRICELESS....

I wrote to several editors and writers of several major newspapers, including the Washington Post and the NY Times. I'm upset at the lack of media attention this thing has received.

I actually put in a dig that Fox News being a better new service for information etc.

I am glad though that it appears the truth is coming out now or will soon.

Just noticed that my sentence structure needs work. LOL

With the FBI investigating, this is going to break soon enough. It is obvious she is not telling the truth, bout' time someone is looking into this. Some major areas were breached here and it is deeper than just a woman lying to her Command. Much deeper...

And the battle rages on. So glad to see someone pointing out to Deb G that using "you're jealous" as a defense, over and over and over and over and over again, is not really all that effective...more like pathetic. What's next, Deb G, something equally lame like "I know you are but what am I?" Believe me, people here don't pick on you because you're a "strong female" (excuse me while I do a little LOL-ing of my own!) but because you happen to be a major league jerk...simple as that. There's no doubt in my mind that you enjoy the hostility directed towards you because even negative attention is better than no attention at all. Sad.

Anyone want to talk about polygraphs?

It would be something different for a few posts and I'm curious about your comments. Maybe the resident agent who is trolling our board could shed some light for us, too.

I have a few comments and personal experience to share...

Bottom line (that would be from my bottom) is that polygraphs are pretty amazing tools. They are not perfect, but they are very telling.

Just because Jill failed though doesn't mean that she was not telling the truth or part of the truth...just that she didn't believe it or she was stressed about it or she was hiding something else.

I can't explain the psychology (of physiology) of the process, but my last polygrapher and I spent a lot of quality time talking about it as he was trying to unscrew me from the ceiling.

I was a repeat customer because, for example, when they said "Have you ever lied to someone who trusted you?" I had revealed everything I remembered, but I KNEW there had to be more...there had to be something more..."what if I'm forgetting something"...I found it terribly distracting and I felt like a horrible person. If they asked me if I was a bank robber, I would have FELT like a bank robber. It was like I doubted myself and I didn't believe it when I answered "no"...what if I was wrong? But it was the truth. It can make you crazy. I wasn't trying to hide anything, but I was worried what they thought and I how I looked. I can't IMAGINE the stress of taking that test if you had anything to hide...even if it was unrelated to the incident in question.

One last rambling comment is that "I'm a good person" is really a stretch when you are going back over your whole life and you are taking inventory of every infraction or indiscretion. Even if you are a "good person"

If Jill had other stuff to hide, it would make the polygraph hard to pass...even if she was telling the truth about her incident. I guess it just depends on how they were asking the questions. I am pretty sure though that the examiner knew how to ask the questions and they got the information they needed to continue their investigation in the right direction.

Long post, I know. It is late.

I meant pyschology or physiology, not psychology of phsyiology. Oops.

I am sorry I have been missing for a few days but someone put a bomb in my pocket, I felt like I was in a trance, I was led away in a Toyota Sienna Van and put in a dark room-I finally escaped when they were trying to feed me a meal....I, despite being 5'1 and 100 lbs. was able to beat up this huge male and run, barefoot to a house, miles away with bloody feet and explain to a family in the middle of the night that I was abducted from my shopping companions at the mall, from an Abercrombie.

You don't believe me?

What?

Sounds all too familiar?

OK...

Yes, I have been crazy with WORK (OK, yes, I am of the working class....ho hum) and have had a wonderful time reading the contributions to this board. Glad to see Deb, Johca and Wiz are still around...As well as the others...

Dorothy:

What do you think happened to Jill Metzger? Do you think she engaged in this ploy for attention or do you think there was an abduction?

Just curious...

Dorothy: Get over it. Seems we have been past this Deb G. fascination. Ah, I don't need negative attention and you're doing just fine at it, re-read my posts, they don't ask for negative attention, they contribute to this area. Sorry, but my posts are no different than many others on here so yes, jealousy and the inability to come up with any of your own theories comes to mind. Jerk? LOL - grow up. If relaying theories and then commenting on some comments directed to me makes me a jerk in your eyes, that is hypocritical. I guess Wizbang Poster, Julie, johca, DM, VR and a slew of other strong, intelligent and excellent speculators are jerks too????? Sorry, but the definition of "jerk" describes your actions by bashing someone for no reason and being foolish in that you offer nothing to this board and have no idea what you are talking about. You have issues. You don't know me, who cares what I say and write on this board and if it bothers you - don't read it. Do you have ulcers and do your nerves shake because you let small things and things other people do bother you? Thought so.......So, do YOU have any idea what happened to Jill Metzger and do you have ANY idea of the recent findings on here or did you just sign in and scroll down to see if Deb G. was around or on here lately? Psycho.

All: Was told that more info. on Jill would be out within a week - let's hope that hearsay info. is true....

It can't be feeling too cozy for Jill to be investigated by the FBI. I am so happy that something is finally being reported on this! Looking forward to the TRUTH...whatever that may be.

***Doing the happy dance here***

Julie: I think Jill is a "jerk" (funny writing that) and the whole reason she did what she did was for negative attention. She might not have been getting enough being a Major in the AF and a Marathon runner. Even though she was going to get a TON of attention when she got home because of everyone keeping eyes on her at the Marathon she was supposed to run and with all the parties family and friends had planned for her recent marriage and travelling (which the family stated) and then the honeymoon. I don't think that would have been enough attention, so, she staged an abduction because all the media attention and AF investigating is well ATTENTION. Even though NEGATIVE it seems what she needed.....or perhaps she was jealous that there might have been a runner at the marathon who she knew was going to beat her, thus, wanted an excuse not to run - that's it, Jealousy!

Julie: Happy dancing with you!!!!

You go girl!!!

Dorothy: Lastly, what is sad is people like you coming in here and commenting about comments being said in regards to Jill Metzger (which is why the room was set up). Sad that you feel the need to name call and character bash yet stand by Metzger - that is really sad given the loss of integrity she has, what she has done to this nation, the military and the relationship we have with foreign allies. But mostly sad because YOU take it personal when someone posts here (mostly me). Pathetic really and completely shows you have no knowledge or intelligence of the bigger pictures around you but stand within a tiny little bubble which reminds me of a kindergarten playground. The only negative attention is the one you live in your head.

I have a question: Why do you side with Jill Metzger? Do you personally know her? Lastly, why do you care so much what I post????? Creepy really.

Polygraphed: Great info. on the polygraph. I have had polygraphs for work situations, and you are right, at times, they make you doubt your own history and wonder if you truly could have done something in your past and then you wonder if the wondering is going to make you fail. Can be a bit stressing if you think TOO MUCH while doing it. I don't know all the details, but they have their ways on very "certain questions" to get the info. they want. I still don't like doing them.

Dorothy: LASTLY, how twistingly ironic it is that you say my saying you are jealous over and over again is not all that effective because it is YOU and 1 or 2 others who say OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER, etc...again Deb G. this and that and the other, over and over again bringing up Deb G., not effective any longer and very pathetic.....you seriously need to re-evaluate where the pathetic mentality is on this one - you are not in touch with reality whatsoever or right from wrong.....if YOU did not say over and over again things about Deb G. then Deb G. would not say over and over again how JEALOUS you are - get it???? easy huh???? the candle does not burn without the fire, fire can provide warmth and food, or burn your house down or you, a knife can cut things you need cut or your food or KILL you if used wrong, so, stop using this post/comment area/blog wrong and it will stop making you insane. As far as "I know you are but what am I" -sounds like you have that area covered (name calling, LOLing of your own-which is mimicking, providing no insight here)....so, grow up and find some area in your life where you are not miserable.......it will also help with your frustration in this blog/comment/post area...better yet, just don't come in here if it makes you that mad.

Deb & Polygraphed: I have often thought that if faced with a polygraph I would fail just on the basis that I would be nervous about each question, thinking about each little white lie I had ever told, doubting my "truth." Thinking about telling my friend I couldn't watch his mean pit bull because I was taking my pig, Hamlet to an anti-pork rally that weekend when, in fact that was not the case. Thinking about all those Friday nights I was really free when I said I wasn't. Thinking about each mitigating circumstance that I was being questioned about that didn't have a clear answer. I suppose the exams and those giving them do have more of a scientific approach to get their information but a rather intimidating experience for those of us unfamiliar with them, indeed.

Disclaimer: Julie does hereby acknowledge that some of the information in this post is for the purpose of humor. She in no way makes any way claim to own a living pig, have attended anti-pork rallies, or is making a broad generalized statement that all pit bulls are mean animals. She does, however, own a TY beanie pink pig, named Hamlet.

Deb: I agree with you on the negative attention. Regardless of the reason she went AWOL...abortion, affair, etc...I think she is arrested in her level of emotional/psychological development where negative attention is better than no attention. Just like a child who acts up to get attention. Like you said, all the attention from the marriage, marathon (although if abortion, she would not be running) and parties for being back home just wasn't enough.

Sad for her husband and family.

Not looking for an excuse BUT often the result of sexual abuse a young girl (broad generalization coming up) includes promiscuity, arrested development and attention seeking behavior in a negative manner. Just wondering if the heat gets put on Jill by the FBI, if an admission that she was sexually abused as a young girlwill follow, and she enters rehab for drinking, like Foley. That's it, she was on a 3 day drinking binge! Why didn't we see this sooner?

Sorry to all who have been victim to my typos and syntax errors due to my impatience and poor typing skills (no editor in residence...). This board is not updating for me and I think I may find myself on a three day binge...Starting with Pinot Grigio...OK, a glass. I am threatening to work my way up to the harder stuff. My typing doesn't get better, and my theories don't either!

I hope to start getting the "feed" soon!

Searching other avenues for news about Jill.

Julie: ROFL! A TY beanie pig and anti-pig rally. I have a Dobe whose favorite toy is a beanie pig!!! He takes care of the dang thing and is careful with it, funny to watch!

There has been instances where polygraph tests are not always accurate. Before the test they calm you down, telling you to RELAX, breath. For me, they did not start unless you were relaxed and ready. All work related though so it was not like I was up on a criminal charge. You do, however, wonder about your life and past and oh my, what if what if.....well, with the FBI investigating now, she should be worried. This could take a while, but I was told some significant news was coming within a week - again, this is hearsay and I don't know that for sure....3rd party stuff....we shall see

Julie: ROFL! A TY beanie pig and anti-pig rally. I have a Dobe whose favorite toy is a beanie pig!!! He takes care of the dang thing and is careful with it, funny to watch!

There has been instances where polygraph tests are not always accurate. Before the test they calm you down, telling you to RELAX, breath. For me, they did not start unless you were relaxed and ready. All work related though so it was not like I was up on a criminal charge. You do, however, wonder about your life and past and oh my, what if what if.....well, with the FBI investigating now, she should be worried. This could take a while, but I was told some significant news was coming within a week - again, this is hearsay and I don't know that for sure....3rd party stuff....we shall see

I don't know about those polygraphs. I had to take one (after I graduated from high school but before joining the navy) just to be a night stockboy in a supermarket. I called myself the nightstalker because it was the 11pm to 7am shift. Anyway i lied to a few questions that i didn't want to be honest about in that test and still passed. When the examiner asked me if I ever shoplifted anything i said no (that was a lie.... i did a few years earlier). I was amazed and still got the job. When i wanted to lie and a NO answer should have really been a YES answer, I simply told myself answer to a question that was true ... such as ... I would say "NO" and then say to myself "cows don't fly" or visa versa... i would say "Yes" and then say "Dollar bills are green" .

So did I beat the test??... a dumb ass 19 yr old
kid? I don't get it, i lied and I still got the job, ever since then, those things don't really mean much to me. Just a thought on my experience with a lie detector test.

Hey wait just a minute "Deb G"....I never said it made me mad to read the blog. Quite the contrary...I find it entertaining, the way freak shows are entertaining. As far as my opinion about Jill Metzger...I've said at least four times that I think she's lying but I'm not obsessing over it like some people are. You know, "Deb G," it's really starting to show that you're not an angry person at all...not even one teeny tiny little bit. Sarcasm intended.

Checking in today and see nothing happening. Will check again tomorrow.

Johni: Interesting way of looking at a polygraph test and your story made me smile. I have heard many stories of people actually lying to a question and still passing the test! They are not 100% accurate.

Dorothy: LOL, I am far from angry, don't get angry. You are useless and actually quite "mean". Angry people say bad things about others when they feel less than adequate about themselves. Strong people with intelligence know how to cope and defend. I should just ignore you, but I find you "entertaining"....there is not one thing on this blog/comment/site which bothers me, not even you. Not sure why my life has you so intrigued enough to constantly bash. You NEVER come in here without mentioning me and bashing, that Dorothy, is a real MENTAL ISSUE (like a bully in the playground)....do yourself a favor and seek help. This site should NOT make you sad, happy, glad, mad or anything against anyone....talk about freak show.

Wow, North Korea does a nuclear test. This made history. I wonder what the UN will do now? Maybe we should start a new thread.......

Someone posted funny stuff on Metzger subject about Metzger's claims that she was robbed.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=158587

Silly female Air Force Major make big lie story--say she robbed by Kyrgyz bandit. But we see big diamond ring on hand! What you think--we fool? We no know value diamond ring? Who silly fool now! You ALL go home! You lose war, Kyrgz warlord laugh at you! You no understand Asia, you fool!

Deb G. - to quote IKJ earlier "If you really want the folks to back off then don't answer absurd attacks... or rather change tactics."

Also, this is not an attack, an observation.
You responded to Dorothy's one post about you with THREE posts. You say you don't care what people on this board think about you but you respond so vehemently to what they say that it's hard to believe that you don't care. Just a theory, but maybe you're being targeted because you're easily provoked. Besides that, Dorothy is as entitled to her opinion of you as you are to your opinion of Jill Metzger or of me for that matter. You've laughed at me, ridiculed me, and condescended in your writings to and about me on this board for what I've written. That's no different than Dorothy thinking you're a jerk for what you've written on this board. If you're going to be vocal, then people are going to form opinions of you based on what you say. I'm not saying that you shouldn't defend yourself, but responding with name calling is juvenile and saying that everyone who opposes you is jealous and obsessed with you, well, that just comes off as narcissism.

I'm not trying to start an argument about this, but you posed the question of why people target you, so that's just my two cents.

DM: I come on here to mull around for any new info. on Jill Metzger and participate with info. of my own or opinions on the case, and have NEVER responded to you, nor anyone in regards to anything negative about what they say in regards to Jill Metzger's situation. I respond to anything said about me because I can and think it is absurd for you or anyone to keep bashing myself or anyone on this board. Fruitless really. And, sorry, but I don't care what you say about me - it means nothing to me or my life. I come on here to read words and info. on Metzger's case and as far I can recall, I am not making news anywhere around the world for lying to the government, military, civilians, or anyone about being abducted. Sorry, but I do NOT undersand why anyone would post or comment ro anyone else here about character, silly really. You don't know me and you certainly have no right to tell me what I should do or not do and I could care less about your observations about me, again, silly really...Immature to boot. Now, do you have any observations on Metzger? or how about the North Korean nuclear test? or perhaps Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes? Brad and Angelina? Illegal aliens coming into our country? Steve Irwin getting killed by a stingray barb? there are so many other topics in this world to dicuss, I'm not one of them and your observations on me are well, wrong, but hey, you're entitled to your opinion and so am I - I think you are just as immature and undirected as Dorothy. Perhaps the two of you could chat with each other? What a great coffee or tea time that would be. If you like drama and gossiping and forming opinions about so many other people, you shoudl work for the Enquirer.....those minds always want to know....people who constantly bash someone else do come across as jealous and obsessed - are you that way too??? The only time people like you seem to think I am vocal is when I respond back to you. So, you have a right to comment about me, but I don't have a right to comment back? LOL good one.

Kuba: I can't open that link. Is that the entirety of what it said??

Deb G. "So, you have a right to comment about me, but I don't have a right to comment back?" I didn't say that at all. In fact I said "I'm not saying that you shouldn't defend yourself". I really don't think that you even attempt to read what half of us are writing. You rarely actually respond to any of the points or questions that I've directed toward you.

"Sorry, but I do NOT undersand why anyone would post or comment ro anyone else here about character" - I find this hypocritical because you are here, at least in part, to comment on the character of Jill Metzger. In fact, what you do is worse, because you ripped apart the character of someone when they weren't even around to defend themselves, but you don't want the same thing done to you. At least you are here to defend yourself.

In regards to you thinking you've NEVER responded to me negatively about what I think about Jill Metzger, I just don't have time to go through the 1400 message on the previous page to find examples. It's all about perception. I think you've laughed at me, you don't think you've laughed at me. You think my last post was 'bashing', but I don't have a malicious intent. Oh well.

You've ask repeatedly why people specifically write negatively about you, so I offered you my theory (Isn't that what we do here - theorize?) - you are easily provoked. Why do I think you're easily provoked? Because you can't let the comments go. Someone thinks you're a jerk and you respond by flipping out on them. You ask why people attack you, I try to tell you what I think, and you respond with an outburst.

I'm not claiming to have the 101 on Deb G. All I'm trying to say to you is that from the style and content of your writing, these are the opinions I've formed. "Deb G" is the summation of what Deb G has written. Take it how you will. But if you truly want us to believe that you don't care, that these opinions "don't mean anything" to you or your life, that you "could care less about your observations about me", then try torespond thoughtfully as opposed to emotionally.

DM DM DM: I know you cannot SEE me behind this computer. I am not easily provoked and am as calm as can be and do not respond emotionally nor with an outburst (perhaps something you might do)- keep trying. I don't really WANT to know why people are bashing me or anyone here, just don't understand it - mind boggling really. I don't need an explanation, and I truly don't care. I don't comment on the character of Metzger, I comment on what I feel could have happened. Her character, however, is a direct reflection of her actions. Obviously, YOU, are provoked and rattled by me to keep commenting on what you think of me. I find that funny. I did not come on here posting about you, you came on here posting about me. You give it out, but cannot take it in. Would you like an observation on YOU?? Insecure, obsessed, unable to take what someone else says about you, unable to play games nicely, unable to theorize with others, opionated of others opinions, butts into others business, not in touch with reality, controlling, trying to make someone think the way YOU want them to think, ok, I will stop here - take it how you will, but if you truly want US (what do you belong to a gang or something) to believe that you don't care or my opinion means nothing to you then try responding intelligently instead of opionatedly (is that word?), or emotionally.....my perception is pretty good, yours is not....sorry

Came across this article. If you have already read this, apologies for the double posting. It is obvious at an early stage, Metzger was not believed.

Vanishing Major: Runaway Bride or Kidnap Victim?
September 11, 2006 8:12 PM

Luis Martinez Reports:

U.S. defense officials tell ABC News that serious inconsistencies have emerged in the investigation of the strange disappearance of Air Force Major Jill Metzger. Maj. Metzger vanished without a trace while shopping at a store in Kyrgyzstan on Sept. 5 until she just as mysteriously reappeared three days later.

Sources tell ABC News that surveillance video taken in the store contradict the Major's story that she was abducted after someone put a hard object in her back pocket along with a note saying that it was an explosive. The video indicates that she left the store of her own free will, and alone, according to sources who have seen the video.

As investigators gather all the facts surrounding the case, they are exploring the possibility that she was attempting to flee a recent marriage, according to one source close to the investigation. When she was found, her hair had been cropped short and dyed.

If Maj. Metzger was abducted, investigators will continue to work with local police in a criminal case. However, if she left on her own and she was not DUSTWUN -- Duty Status Whereabouts Unknown -- she will be reclassified as AWOL -- Absent Without Leave-- and open to punishment by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. A lower ranking enlisted person might just get a reprimand, but officers are held to a higher standard.

Maj. Metzger is currently at Landstuhl Air Force Base undergoing medical treatment and debriefing. She will return to the U.S. within the next three to four days to undergo further care and debriefing at Walter Reed Medical Center. Despite the fact that she is a two-time winner, Metzger will not be running in this weekend's Air Force Marathon as planned.

DM: "I don't comment on the character of Metzger". That's ludicrous. Reread what you've read and you'll see character judgment is a theme.

"You give it out, but cannot take it in." Deb, if I couldn't take it, I wouldn't still be here.

"Insecure" - If I were insecure, I'd hardly be able to stand the heat in here, especially as I often seem to be in the minority opinion.

"obsessed" - At the risk of feeding your naricissism, I'm not obsessed, you're just one of the most intriguing characters in here.

"unable to take what someone else says about you" - Untrue. I know what you think of me, and well, okay.

"unable to play games nicely" - I wasn't aware that we were playing games in here. But I'm glad to know that's what you think is going on.

"unable to theorize with others" - Just because I haven't thrown out a bunch of overblown theories out there doesn't mean that I'm unable to. I choose not to. And you can't say that I've not commented thoughtfully on other things - for example, my deduction regarding Josh's lack of knowledge regarding his wife as discussed above.

"opionated of others opinions" - How can you scold me for forming an opinion? That's what we're all doing here. Are you once again trying to make the rules to suit you?

"butts into others business" - I don't even know what you're talking about.

"not in touch with reality" - Who's reality? Yours? "Reality" is a subjective personal experience so this is hardly an insult.

"controlling" - How have I tried to control you? There is in fact, no way that I CAN control you. The fact that you bring this up so often makes me wonder if the person who has issues with control is not in fact you.

"trying to make someone think the way YOU want them to think" - First of all there's nothing illegal about persuasion. Second, I'm not jamming my opinions down anyone's throat. And thirdly, can you honestly say that YOU don't want people to think the way you do? You obviously want others to think that this is a story that deserves more media coverage and you want people to pay more attention to it. Otherwise, why would you have emailed anyone at Moody Airbase? That action alone shows that you want someone else to think the way you do.

When you say I'm rattled by you, well I'm not shaking in my shoes, but you do grate on my nerves.

Conclusion: Get off your high horse and ditch the double standard and hipocracy. This is what bothers me: You can do/say whatever you want, but if anyone who does or says that same thing and in doing so, offends you or comes into opposition with you, then they are wrong and worthy of a good tongue-lashing.

correction: The above is directed to Deb G., not DM.

"Sources tell ABC News that surveillance video taken in the store contradict the Major's story that she was abducted after someone put a hard object in her back pocket along with a note saying that it was an explosive. The video indicates that she left the store of her own free will, and alone, according to sources who have seen the video."

If Metzger was abducted, then the video doesn't necessarily contradict this. It DOES show that she walked out of the store on her own, which is apparently against the rules and is at the very least a careless decision. But the video can't show what happened OUTSIDE of the store. She could have taken a nap on the sidewalk, she could have joined a game a softball with some kids, or things could have played out as she said they did. Point is, a video only shows what happened INSIDE and can't rule out what happens someone walks out of range.

DM: Again, I ONLY respond to someone commenting about me, not about Metzger's situation. I did not start this blog, comment area, post/thread and her character is a huge part of what she has done, however, I am not here to bash her character, merely trying to figure out what the truth might be - YOU DM, do not understand the depth of what she has done and I am not going to try to explain that to you, you would not get it anyway. The games I am referring to is you (and a few others) posting back to ME, not in regards to Metzger, just me, yes, I see it as a game, because it means nothign to me and is entertaining, like games are - goes not make a difference in my life, like a game does not. Umm, I emailed a few folks at Moody to ask their opinion, NOT tellt hem what to think or do. I can't even remember the rest of your post, I just know you wrote I grate on your nerves......hmmmmmm, that my dear is a problem, YOUR problem. If I grate on your nerves, STOP POSTING AND RESPONDING TO ME. Who cares what I write, really now, this is silly. For you to allow anything in here to grate on your nevers is disturbing. You DO NOT grate on my nerves because you mean nothing to me, you are merely a cyber person who happens to post back about me. I forget about this stuff until I come back to see if any new news is out on Metzger and, there you are! I also check into the news often, not about Metzger, but about other life situations and am heavily in tune with world situations - are you? or are you just in tune and mad at everyone around you who has an opinion you don't like or a character you don't like. I have a visual of what you might be like in person and defintely not someone I would ever associate with anyway....not into YOUR games or YOUR control sorry. I don't tell anyone here what to do or how to think, but YOU do - your perception is a bit ill versed.....ok, YOUR turn, just like a game, because YOU DM have made it that way.....

DM: Now, I have to comment. A game of softball w/kids? It is certain, your reality factor is not in check.

DM: Now, I have to comment. A game of softball w/kids? It is certain, your reality factor is not in check.

Posted by: Deb G. at October 9, 2006 01:18 PM

That's obvious a petty dig at me. That's not the point at all of my post and you seem intelligent enough to know that. But if you're not, then read my post again until you do because I can't be any clearer about it.

DM: You petty dig at me constantly, re-read YOUR OWN posts and you couldn't be any clearer about it.

Intelligent enough? Now, I could almost assume the jist of your post, however, frankly, given the lack of recent sense, was not sure if you truly believed that could have happened. I have nothing against you DM, I really don't, but in all due respect, you DO NOT know me, my character, my intent, my reason for sending an email to Moody, my intrigue of reading this blog or thread or whatever you call it or the BIG PICTURE. Just like I don't know you, thus, it is silly of either of us to try and figure out what the other is like. Well, I am not trying to figure you out, but if we were put in a room together, say, for lunch, I can almost guarantee I would not grate on your nerves and ya might even like me! I don't know of anyone who feels I grate on their nerves, co-workers, friends, family. I actually have a rather good life and no enemies (none that I know of). This site does not count, because I don't know anyone here and noone here knows me either and this is a tiny fragment of my life, teeny teeny tiny, which I have met some nice folks whom I keep in touch via email right now. Mostly ladies, a few men. I have no ill intent here, toward anyone. I have the same reasons for coming here as 95% of others do. The other 5% are ill mannered in regards to the intent of this blog. and DM, I actually don't even think you are that 5%. I have actually enjoyed many of your posts, regardless of what you post to me.....

Deb G & DM.

I have come back refreshed from my spritual weekend retreat.

For my own gratification can we all stick to the subject of Maj Jill Metzger.

Please ladies, I fear you two may be making German spectacles of yourselves.

Pete

"spiritual weekend retreat"

If it was anything like mine it started Thursday afternoon and, rum, vodka, and tequilla all played a primary roll for the duration. :-)

For the sake of clarification, I do not believe that Jill Metzger left the mall to play softball. I was trying to make a point, which I stated - that any number of things could have happened outside of the store, including that which was reported by Metzger, and that I don't think that a video of what happened INSIDE the store can rule out what happened OUTSIDE the store.

Pete,

I was wondering who would be the first to ask Deb G. and myself to knock it off :-)

German spectacles?

Pete,
Hear, hear! Let's get back to Jill Metzger and out speculations about her situation.

Seems like it's pretty clear she left the mall to do something per her own agenda. Do we think she invented the entire story, or do we think something bad really did happen to her after her personal agenda plan fell through?

Let's assume she left the mall to go and do something the AF would be upset/embarrassed about: get an abortion, have an affair, buy EPO. But then is it possible she DID fall victim to foul play? Really WAS kidnapped? And then the perps realized she's military and panicked and let her go? If this happened, would it make sense that the military is keeping quiet about it now? What a touchy situation: on the one hand, she did something she shouldn't have initially, but on the other hand she was victimized and possibly raped/brutalized in some way. It would be somewhat difficult to punish her harshly...

Or is that way too far-fetched? Did she, instead, make the ENTIRE story up, dye her own hair, tear off her own necklace, slap her own face a little, run in bare feet to cover up for her botched abortion or her failed marital escape? If so, how could she POSSIBLY continue to tell her abduction story now, with all of the witnesses she left behind in Bishkek?

The comment from Lt Col "in the know", posted above, has the ring of truth to it. We've already covered this possibility here (abortion gone bad). Is there any other theory that holds water as well?

I am all with getting back on topic,too. Please.

2Deb G
FYI
Reposting here content of URL.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=158587

Title: Security Services Unable To Reconstruct What Happened To USAF Major
Source: Eurasian Secret Services Daily Review
URL Source: http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp? article=1062
Published: Sep 12, 2006
Author: Staff at USSDR
Post Date: 2006-09-12 20:53:49 by Idol Hanz
20 Comments

Security services unable to reconstruct what happened to US captain in Kyrgyzstan

AIA already reported about the case of Jill Metzger , a US Air Force captain who was presumed kidnapped on September 5 in Kyrgyzstan before turning up three days later. More questions than answers continue to surround the case, online agency Eurasia.net writes today. Metzger, who was reportedly in the final days of a deployment at the US air base at Manas outside the Kyrgyz capital, vanished after last being seen at Bishkek's Central Department Store in the late afternoon on September 5. Three days later, she reappeared in Kant, a Bishkek suburb that also happens to be the home of a Russian military facility. While missing, Metzger's long blonde hair had been cut short and dyed black, according to local reports. Metzger, according to witnesses, seemed dazed when she reappeared, but showed no visible signs of physical abuse; she is "undergoing follow-up medical evaluations and debriefings" at the Landstuhl Regional Medical Centre in Germany, according to a US Air Force statement. Beyond this, what happened to Metzger remains a mystery, Eurasia.net says. Local news accounts, citing security services investigators, say that Metzger claimed that she had been kidnapped, but in the moments immediately after she resurfaced, she reportedly provided Kyrgyz police with contradictory information about her experience. Several Kyrgyz media outlets said surveillance video at the department store showed Metzger leaving alone. The 24.kg news agency, citing a security forces source, reported that a woman matching Metzger's description speaking in Russian approached "the operator of a telephone outlet" in Bishkek and a private taxi driver admitted giving a "foreign woman" a lift on September 5 around the time of Metzger's disappearance. Security services have been unable to reconstruct what happened after this point until her reappearance. The 24.kg report of a foreign woman speaking in Russian contradicts an account provided by the couple in Kant who first encountered Metzger on September 8. The Bely Parakhod newspaper quoted a woman, identified as Svetlana Ishchenko, as saying that when Metzger mysteriously appeared at her front door, the American seemed to be in a state of shock and could not speak a word of Russian.

Comments:

1. To: Idol Hanz (#0)

Jusnt another chick gone wild. I'm wondering if she was wearing zee uniform or at least portions of it while being... you know... kidnapped.

A Vast RightWing Conspirator posted on 2006-09-12 20:55:54 ET Reply Trace

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2. To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator (#1)
Silly Air Force Major make big lie story! She insult all good Kyrgz people! She go home now---and take suitcase with her! Kyrgz warlord laugh at American-- why you use silly female major to fight war? We laugh! You look silly!

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-12 20:59:15 ET Reply Trace

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3. To: All (#0)
Silly female Air Force Major make big lie story--say she robbed by Kyrgz bandit. But we see big diamond ring on hand! What you think--we fool? We no know value diamond ring? Who silly fool now! You ALL go home! You lose war, Kyrgz warlord laugh at you! You no understand Asia, you fool!

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-12 21:04:19 ET Reply Trace

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4. To: Idol Hanz (#0)
Post hypnotic suggestion?

Manchurian Candidate?

scratch that

Womanchurian Candidate.

Goldi-Lox posted on 2006-09-12 23:09:59 ET Reply Trace

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5. To: Goldi-Lox (#4)
it's possible she did not tell the police what happened
I am sure she is telling the military everything now

palo verde posted on 2006-09-12 23:14:55 ET Reply Trace

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6. To: palo verde (#5)
No, Palo--you still don't get it.

The military is telling HER what to say now. They want this to go away and they will concoct a story. OR, they will quietly give her an article 15 and bury it. Article 15's are not FOIA'ble so the media wont find out no matter how hard they dig.

Meanwhile, the enlisted go to jail for the same offenses on Animal Farm. (some animals are more equal then other animals)

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-12 23:19:34 ET

Comments (continued):

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=158587

9. To: palo verde (#7)
1) USAF and the embassy refused to conduct a joint investigation--this alone speaks volumnes. If there was "foul play" suspected it is to the advantage of the United States to work closely with the host nation--This is NOT what happened! The US immedieatly put her on an aircraft and removed her. They refused to cooperate with the Kyrgyz authorities who had jurisdiction.

If there was "foul play" don't you think the US would work with the Kyrgyz to find the "culprits" DUH!!!! Wake up!

2) She told the Kyrgyz that she had been "robbed" of a necklace but she had a diamond on her hand!!

Give it up Palo--stop being "PC". If you can't smell the truth in this case, I feel sorry for you. This is not "animal farm" where some animals (female officers) are more equal then others. Just because your a female and an officer doesnt excuse you from "equal justice under law".

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-12 23:32:40 ET Reply Trace

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10. To: palo verde (#8)
Great, the investigators were there. Why didnt they conduct a joint investigation after she was found? Please explain this FACT.

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-12 23:33:37 ET Reply Trace

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11. To: All (#10)
Why did she leave by herself??? She was under orders not to go out alone and yet she left by herself. This fact is evidenced by the video tape!!

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-12 23:34:53 ET Reply Trace

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12. To: All (#0)
The bottom line her is the USAF leadership want this to go away and they will lie and deny till the bitter end.

I'm writing all the major media and demand that they investigate, investigate, investigate, dig dig dig....get to the bottom of it!!

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-12 23:37:40 ET Reply Trace

13. To: Idol Hanz (#9)

Give it up Palo--stop being "PC". If you can't smell the truth in this case, I feel sorry for you. This is not "animal farm" where some animals (female officers) are more equal then others. Just because your a female and an officer doesnt excuse you from "equal justice under law".

I'm not pc
I'm not on her side because she is a gal
I am on the side of truth

if she was abducted in foreign country
and crimes done to her during her abduction
and in a state of shock, I can understand why she would not say anything to the foreign police
she just wanted to be returned to the military
she just wanted to be safe

I do not want to cast aspersions on foreign police I know nothing about
but if she were abducted by gangsters
she doesn't know who in the police dept may be connected to gangsters

her best bet is so say almost nothing to them
just be returned to military
and then tell the military everything
which I am sure she did

palo verde posted on 2006-09-12 23:41:02 ET Reply Trace

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14. To: Idol Hanz (#11)

Why did she leave by herself??? She was under orders not to go out alone and yet she left by herself. This fact is evidenced by the video tape!!

I thought the article said she was taken on military shopping spree
and was last seen in the department store

obviously you know far many more details about this than I do
and have followed it much more closely

however your conclusions don't wash with me
I prefer my own conclusions
I don't care how many times you call me stupid bimbo

I think she was abducted and I think she was raped
because she showed up at the woman's farm house with bruises on her face, in state of shock, wearing clothes way too big for her
and her blond hair was dyed black

I don't think they realized they had abducted a US Air Force Colonel
but after her pic was shown on tv
they dyed her hair

palo verde posted on 2006-09-12 23:50:08 ET Reply Trace

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15. To: Idol Hanz (#11)

Why did she leave by herself??? She was under orders not to go out alone and yet she left by herself. This fact is evidenced by the video tape!!
she may have been abducted from the dept store at gunpoint
I don't know why she left the dept store with the gangsters?

the videotape from the department store you mean
I am not so sure I trust what the foreign police are saying now
it is very serious thing that US Air Force Colonel was abducted and crimes done to her

they may prefer to make it sound like she is a crazy lady making stuff up
(the store would say what the police want them to say)

palo verde posted on 2006-09-12 23:56:15 ET Reply Trace

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16. To: Idol Hanz (#10)

Great, the investigators were there. Why didnt they conduct a joint investigation after she was found? Please explain this FACT.
maybe the Air Force does not want investigation either
neither does the foreign police
nobody wants to make waves about this

palo verde posted on 2006-09-12 23:58:53 ET Reply Trace

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17. To: Idol Hanz (#12)

The bottom line here is the USAF leadership want this to go away and they will lie and deny till the bitter end.

on that we agree

palo verde posted on 2006-09-13 00:49:29 ET Reply Trace

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18. To: palo verde (#17)
Yes, but what about the enlisted going on trial for the same allah damned thing.

I suppose you think that's fair....? Again, you have no sense of justice. Political correctness is the order of the day!

REVOLT!

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-13 13:02:58 ET Reply Trace

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19. To: palo verde (#15)

she may have been abducted from the dept store at gunpoint
yeah, and monkeys are flying out of my butt too...dream on, Palo

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-13 13:03:42 ET Reply Trace

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20. To: Idol Hanz (#18)

Yes, but what about the enlisted going on trial for the same allah damned thing.
I suppose you think that's fair....? Again, you have no sense of justice. Political correctness is the order of the day!

I am not going to respond to your posts further because of the contempt you are expressing for me in these posts
(even tho I remain tremendously fond of you, and always have been)
I do not belive an enlisted man was abducted, raped, beaten
and then put on trial for AWOL
our Air Force is not monsters

and if she were simply AWOL -- I think she would be on trial
pc only goes so far
Kelly Flynn's career was destroyed by Air Force, in fact they were going to court martial her
for refusing to stop dating the civilian husband of an enlisted woman

she was only allowed to have Dishonorable Discharge instead of court martial
because of the intervention of Trent Lott, then Majority Leader of US Senate

palo verde posted on 2006-09-13 13:59:30 ET Reply Trace

ijosha: Funny stuff. Sounds like a great weekend retreat!

German spectacles? What the?? ah heck....

What were we talking about anyway....Metzger.....

I think I might change the abortion theory to the playing softball outside theory - why not? Possible, she was, afterall, atheletic....(cough)

Kuba,

Thanks for posting that. You come up with some great info.! I know at times it seems you post intently and folks give you a hard time too, however, I also understand your loyalty to your country and this is what provokes your need for further info. as it does mine and many others here. I don't see anything wrong with what you do, keep doing it!

Metzger Flier, snagged off a building in Bishkek
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathanhamm/254271745/

The Major's story holds water until offical news release states otherwise. There may be a hole or more causing the water to leak out, but the investigation might just find something other than what we on best guess think happened.

The medical examination done immdiately after her reappearance will have found signs of medical condition and medical procedure if it happened. I can wait for official disclosure of cause of the disappearance which will state at minimium if misconduct and medical condition was or wasn't the primary cause.

Here is a recent abduction that happened in Mexico. Alaskan woman escapes kidnappers near Zihuatanejo

Has some similarities except there was ransom demand and other communications.

May I ask you all one simple question. Give me simple answer.

Kyrgyzstan has huge American expat community.
There are number of Peace Corpse volunteers, most of them work and live in remote, rural areas.
They would have made an far easier target for potential abductors.

And why then Jill Metzger is picked out of the crowd to be abducted? What was the agenda of abductors?

- Maybe, it's because she was so exceptionally pretty? And some local warlord wanted to make her his wifey?

- Common, drop it, she is not that good looking woman. Her looks are below average.
There are much better looking gals walking in Bishkek streets.

- Did she have an value as an intel source?
- She could not come up with better excuse than bomb and trance story. I am questioning here her intellectual abilities. What kind of intel source she would have been then?

- Maybe someone wanted to abduct her and ask for ransom?

- And why exactly no female Peace Corps Volunteer was abducted in nearly 16 years time since they arrived in Kyrgyzstan? And they are more vulnerable than Jill Metzger: they live with Kyrgyz host families in rural Kyrgystan, they have no body guards and weapons to protect them. Often villages they live are located in remote areas. Perfect place to snatch someone.

- She claimed she was robbed by abductors.
But she was still wearing expensive diamond rind when she reappeared.

- One strange thing: When she reappeared, Kyrgyz police informed US embassy. The US marines arrived shortly, smashed video and photo cameras of local journalists, shouting "No press!".
So, US Embassy knew something at that point of time that we do not know?

I am now really baffled at Jill Metzger's moronity. A kid could have done better job of lying.

Kuba Kyrgyz -- Wow! I found that link to the flyer foto barely 20 minutes ago and was going to post it, only to see you beat me to it.

OK, here's the question I was going to post along with it:

I wonder what the hand-written note on the lower-right side of the flyer says?

"I wonder what the hand-written note on the lower-right side of the flyer says?"

Looks like, just a scribbles. Cannot make it out.

If Jill WAS snatched (which sound unlikely, but possible) she would look like a good target because:
she is small and thin
she looks Europeanish so probably a tourist
she is by herself
she has a big bag of stuff and a cellphone and jewelry, so looks relatively wealthy
she looks lost and doesn't speak Russian

Going against the possibility of a kidnapping:
--the Kyrgyz officials clearly think it didn't happen, and they aren't pursuing it. Jill is not giving them more information, as far as we know, which would probably be happening if she had been kidnapped
--her story (even if we discount the bomb in the pocket/trance part) is wacky. They dyed her hair? She hit someone and escaped?
--kidnapping is an unlikely crime of opportunity. Robbery, yes; rape, yes; but a 3-day kidnapping, no.
--if it was a planned kidnapping (let's say some bad guys knew her plan to go into Bishkek by herself and waylaid her) then they would have had a ransom plan and a better security plan. (And let's consider what kind of fools would kidnap an American military member? An airman would have a hell of a lot of people looking for him/her right away, and clearly his/her family would be unlikely to be wealthy enough to pay any big ransom. Bad selection.) Kuba is right, a Peace Corps volunteer would be a better target because they're often from wealthy families.
--hair dye and cut. Why would kidnappers bother?

What really happened? She lost another pool-hall panties bet! (HappyCivilian post from long ago)
She was supposed to streak all the way back to base, but got lost. She stole some clothing drying on a closeline. The real mystery is the cut and dyed hair (wasn't part of the bet)...

Another, alternative theory:

She (Metzger) was going to return to US in couple of days. She left TSUM shopping mall to buy Afghan heroin, which is available at dirt cheap price in Bishkek. She hoped to smuggle it to USA on military transport and earn a few bobs. (I do know that militaries are involved in Afghan heroin trafficking.) She made a couple of phone calls. Met with drug dealers. Something went wrong. And et cetera.

Why Is the US Letting Afghan Drug Production Resume?

According to the 2/18/02 Financial Times (London),

"The US and United Nations have ignored repeated calls by the international anti-drugs community to address the increasing menace of Afghanistan's opium cultivation, threatening a rift between Europe and the US as they begin to reconstruct the country....

How could the US, which until recently spoke loudly and often of the need to wage a war on drugs, be so silent about the Afghan drug problem? One can think of a number of possible explanations. One is that drugs are now the chief source of income for Afghanistan, whose traditional economy has been almost destroyed.

This is a matter of extreme concern to America's chief ally in the region, Pakistan. Pakistan, which has had to support about 3 million Afghan refugees for the last two decades, saw an additional two hundred thousand flee the country after September 11, 2001. The failure to secure a stable peace has meant that refugees are still coming. Musharraf and the US have political as well as economic reasons to wish to reverse this flow. Many of the refugees are disaffected and open to Islamist recruitment.

This brings us to the sensitive and complex question of the drug involvement of Pakistan's lead intelligence agency, the ISI (Interservices Intelligence). The ISI, CIA, and Afghan drug traffic have been a single story since the CIA, in May 1979, first met with the ISI protege, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar; and proceeded to fund him, even as his guerrilla operation evolved into a professional drug network with its own heroin labs (McCoy, Politics of Heroin, 451).

From 1996 to 2001 bin Laden was a source of support, along with "Islamic charities in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States," for the Tajikistan-based Uzbek Islamic resistance known since 1998 as the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, or IMU (Rashid, Jihad, 154; cf. 133, 140, 165). Bin Laden has allegedly, with ISI and Taliban blessing, used the former Hekmatyar drug network to sustain the IMU; he even instituted a regular air service between Nangarhar, where the opium was grown, and Kunduz in northern Afghanistan, a city with a reported heroin lab where the IMU had a major base (Labeviere, 105, 113 [air service]; Cooley, 154 [heroin lab]; Griffin, Reaping the Whirlwind, 150). The IMU has since allegedly established heroin labs in Tajikistan (Rashid, Jihad, 165).

Despite these facts, the relationship between the US and the IMU is far too complex to make the IMU an obvious target for the US "war against terror." If the CIA, via its sister agency the Pakistan ISI, can maintain a degree of control over the drug flow reaching the IMU, this confers a degree of influence over not just the IMU but the Government of Uzbekistan.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060921&articleId=3294

Legal Business and Illicit Trade are Intertwined

There are powerful business and financial interests behind narcotics. From this standpoint, geopolitical and military control over the drug routes is as strategic as oil and oil pipelines.

Moreover, the above figures including those on money laundering, confirm that the bulk of the revenues associated with the global trade in narcotics are not appropriated by terrorist groups and warlords, as suggested by the UNODC report. In the case of Afghanistan, the UN Office on Drugs and Crime estimates that a mere 2.7 billion accrues as revenue within Afghanistan. According to the US State department "Afghanistan drug profits support the Taliban and their terrorism efforts against the United States, its allies and the Afghan government." (statement, the House Appropriations foreign operations, export financing and related programs subcommittee. September 12, 2006)

However, what distinguishes narcotics from legal commodity trade is that narcotics constitutes a major source of wealth formation not only for organized crime but also for the US intelligence apparatus, which increasingly constitutes a powerful actor in the spheres of finance and banking. This relationship has been documented by several studies including the writings of Alfred McCoy. (Drug Fallout: the CIA's Forty Year Complicity in the Narcotics Trade. The Progressive, 1 August 1997).

In other words, intelligence agencies, powerful business, drug traders and organized crime are competing for the strategic control over the heroin routes. A large share of this multi-billion dollar revenues of narcotics are deposited in the Western banking system. Most of the large international banks together with their affiliates in the offshore banking havens launder large amounts of narco-dollars.

This trade can only prosper if the main actors involved in narcotics have "political friends in high places." Legal and illegal undertakings are increasingly intertwined, the dividing line between "businesspeople" and criminals is blurred. In turn, the relationship among criminals, politicians and members of the intelligence establishment has tainted the structures of the state and the role of its institutions including the Military.

Kuba, I've read through many posts regarding Metzger on the libertypost.org and was wondering - are you Idol Hanz?

Deb G said: "ok, done cleaning up a bit in here - phew - taking out the trash can be exhausting :-)"

Methinks thou doth protest waaaaay too much.

DM, I'd say that Kuba and Idol Hanz are definitely the same guy. This is Kuba's post here at Wizbang:

Silly female Air Force Major make big lie story--say she robbed by Kyrgyz bandit. But we see big diamond ring on hand! What you think--we fool? We no know value diamond ring? Who silly fool now! You ALL go home! You lose war, Kyrgz warlord laugh at you! You no understand Asia, you fool!

Posted by: Kuba Kyrgyz at October 9, 2006 07:46 AM

...and here's Idol Hanz's post at libertypost:

3. To: All (#0) Silly female Air Force Major make big lie story--say she robbed by Kyrgz bandit. But we see big diamond ring on hand! What you think--we fool? We no know value diamond ring? Who silly fool now! You ALL go home! You lose war, Kyrgz warlord laugh at you! You no understand Asia, you fool!

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-09-12 21:04:19 ET Reply Trace

Same guy who loves that copy and paste - must think he's wittier than he really is.

As to Kurt's comment: I've been lurking on and off and have seen a lot of Deb G's rants on this board, but none of them - NONE - matched her meltdown over having her real name posted. Talk about pure entertainment!

Kurt: Taking out the trash was no in reference to a name being put on this site. It was in reference to the Metzger situation. Ah, I did not remove the names. Privacy policy states names are not to be posted on here. Whether it is real or not, it is a full name so, thus, was deleted.

Lurker: Ah, I don't recall a meltdown, at any time. Again, not my real name, but you can keep believing that in your own head. Again, just shows ignorance...

I just see a few ignorant people here with nothing better to do than comment about commenters with a continuation of Deb G. fascination. Pathetic really......now, what is pure entertainment is a few of you who think you know me, think that is my real name, but don't have a clue...... :-) sorry, but the real meltdown here is you folks obsessed with this constant bashing.....psychological meltdown LOL

Kuba: Met with drug dealers? Now, there is a new theory.....

Kurt and Lurker: Do you two have anything better to do than try to put down other folks on here? calling them names, lying, etc...???? Obviously not very good team players are you? Who cares who anyone on here is, who cares what Kuba posts or what I post. I am starting to think you are obsessed with defending Metzger or is it just that you can't play with others?? Again, this comment area/blog section/ post, etc...should provoke no ill feelings towards another on here as it is NOT directed toward you - just mere speculation of a media situation. Not a big deal really so get over who someone is, what someone does and what they post......

Let's try this: I'm a new anchor from FOX news, writing a story about Metzger, gathering info. I also had a bomb in my pocket, read a note, fell into a trance, was abducted and then escaped. Do you believe that? If you do or don't WHO CARES.....you folks are letting this area bother you WAY TOO MUCH.....

I have many theories about Jill Metzger and this is why I come here. I theorize, politicize, socialize, and try to do a psuedo qualitative approach to: "What happened to Jill Metzger?"

The people in here are entertaining, witty, funny and sometimes emotional and angry with each other...but this personal thing with Deb G. really has to stop. I don't care what Deb has said or done to any of you but unless she has threatened you in some way and you need to take it to the owner of the board and get the authorities involved, I suggest you take the juvenile "I know your name," threats and bullying to another place, because that is exactly where it belongs.

I don't know Deb. I don't know Jill. But I DO KNOW I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF MY WORK DAY! And, it is my business who owns my computer.

Do you really want people threatening to put your name out on a board? Do you want people to find public information about you and spreading it around? Divorce record? Bankruptcy record? Arrest? DUI? Come on people, be mature. Who really cares who the heck Deb is? Is that why you are here? She sticks up for herself and you constantly target her because of it. Knock it off. Deb, don't let them bully you into going away.

Julie: Thanks for covering my back. I'm not going anywhere because I enjoy the updates on Metzger, unfortunately, reading through the Deb speculations and "I know who you are" games is in the way of some of the reading. I feel like you, the only entertaining part is the people who keep posting about me or to me, ludicrous really.

I remain totally calm, no meltdowns or whatever. These folks are making fools of themselves and they don't even see it.....completely immature. Little bullys on the playground.

Well, you see, Julie...way back in the day (before your time), Deb claimed that she knew a commenter's IP address and full name and threatened (twice) to disclose both here on this website. Then last week, when her name was revealed after numerous insults to all and sundry, she threatened (once again) that she had the commenter's name and IP address and that they "should expect a couple of visitors soon". WTF is that? Anyone smarter than Deb would know that's a lie, but there are some real morons on this board who might've taken her seriously! So, I ask you, how come it is OK with you for Deb to bully and threaten with impunity?

The point is: Deb can't go around threatening people and not expect a little push-back. She started something she had no clue about. In her case, ignorance is not bliss.

The threats to "expose" Deb G. are getting a little creepy. The option of anonimity is an important factor in encouraging open discussion. We don't really know who we're talking to on this board or who may be reading it. Certainly those who would like to bring personal details to light would not want their own personal information shared with us all by someone with ill intent. The anonimity ensures that no one can be persecuted in "real life" for what they say here. No matter how much someone enjoys analyzing what Deb G. (or anyone) says, destroying her privacy is going too far.

The next person who threatens to out another commenter, or starts speculating about someone's "real name," or identity is going to be banned. That goes for Kurt, Deb G., and everyone else.

If you volunteer that kind of information, that's another story, but I'm tired of cleaning up this shit. Play nice or I'll just shut it all down...

I had read about the IP address discussion. I can't comment on it at this time as I would have to go back and read it. I would have to say that it would probably have been not the best move on her part either...

Regardless of Deb's previous posts you guys just keep it up. What is wrong with this picture? What will cause you to relent? When she finally gives up and walks away from the board? Do you just enjoy her responses? YOU provoked her this time. And people keep provoking her. You can't let it go. Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people just need to move on.

Can people stay on topic...oh yeah, the topic is not Deb; it is Jill.

Sure, Kevin, whatever you say. You're the boss. You can pull the plug whenever you want. Might be a good idea!

But, for the record, Deb did choose to reveal her own identity, it's only later after bad-mouthing others who didn't agree with her, that she regretted her stupidity.

Remember, she's posted all sorts of inane personal and family information here for everyone's boredom. She went so far as to post her Match.com info here for everyone, including directions on how to find her profile online. And she's tried to hook up privately with various military men on this board.

Those aren't exactly the actions of someone who doesn't want the attention.

Oh, and Julie? "Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people just need to move on." Everyone except Jill Metzger no doubt - she needs to fry! Right?

Kurt: Final - way back when, someone posted they had hoped I would be kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered. I obtained the person who did that utilizing the IP address and computer forensics via our IT forensics/investigative department. However, as this site is truly merely a blog area to share theories, I stopped the process. After reviewing the Privacy Policy here, did not post the name. Now, any police department or government entity has the capability to find someone using an IP address. It is not hard for them. So, if I wanted to follow through on any of this ludicrous name revealing, I could. However,it is senseless and fruitless and means nothing. Seeing how that is not my REAL name, I really don't care. Just know though, people can be tracked back to IP address and so forth. This blog area should cause noone to reveal names or what not. Kurt, you sure hold a grudge, that was A LONG time ago and not something to bring up now.....let it go. There are other things to do than worry about anyone in here.

Kurt: For your own little record. I have NOT hooked up with ANYONE here on this board, especially military men. Against the rules for my job. So, sock it, because YOU are the clueless one......very clueless, and I have never posted my name here. YOU seem to have taken this way too personal. A bit angry aren't you??

Kurt,

NOONE said Jill Metzger had to fry. Noone. However, if she has lied to the government then she should be held accountable. Don't you think??? or would you just allow her to freely go about her usual daily business??

As far as you accusation of trying to hook up privately here - I would ask anyone on here whom I have tried to contact come forward and say this - noone can because it has never happened. I don't talk to anyone here - except a few woman, whom, have intelligence and great articulation and theories. Met 2 men whom I rarely keep in contact with, just military stuff. You have a sick bothered mind......

don't bad mouth others either - re-read the posts, that perception is WAY OFF and I mean WAYYYYY OFF....there is no stupidity involved here other than those who relentlessly keep digging....

Julie: The IP address situation came up where someone came on threatening to reveal my name. It started with the first name and so on and a challenge to post a name I obtained WEEKS ago was put on the table. I read the privacy policy and then just realized "what am I doing", now stooping to their level and decided against posting it. I never threatened to reveal anyone for no reason, but hoping someone is kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered is a pretty darn good reason. I don't threaten people and again, this site is just no area to be doing stuff like this. Fruitless. I don't even live my daily life with insanity like this place can get. The only answer I have is some pretty miserable, irritated and annoyed folks sitting behind a computer. I might have responded too strongly at some points but only because the postings started to get ludicrous and now posting speculations of me which are so FAR OFF are insane. No big deal though - I know who I am and this place in no way shape of form defines my character, being or person....funny to watch though.

Kurt! Noooo, don't say that! Kevin can't pull the plug! We've got a betting pool going on for how many times Deb will add the word "really" to one of her statements: "silly really" (her fave), "pathetic really", "sad really", "psychotic really", etc, etc. Per post, mind you. Bonus points if she responds more than once! I've won $13.50 already - that's lunch right there!

Julie: Do we just enjoy her responses? Hell, yeah! There ain't nothing funnier than to see a 6'4" maintenence officer prance around saying, "You're so jealous! Silly, really!!"

PS: I posted this from work, and have it on good authority that Kurt did too.

Kurt: If you can point out where I said for Jill to fry, the more power to you. People make mistakes. Some people verbally say the wrong thing at the wrong time. Some people screw up at work or with their kids. Others, more rarely, yet severely on the deviant end of the spectrum make mistakes that go against the rules and laws society have set up. Those people then find themselves engaged in the justice system involved with attorneys, judges, juries, etc., with other people determining their fate because of their mistake. Sometimes it is a "mistake." Sometimes it is a learning experience in life through which one can grow and mature. People who commit crimes deserve to be punished because they intended to commit the crime, cover up the crime, lie about the crime and so forth.

I speculate on Jill Metzger but I have not once said I think she should fry because of what she has done.

Unless she is crazy, she obviously risked her career, a career she worked hard to achieve and possibly marriage, not to mention international embarrassment to do whatever it was she was doing those 3 days. Obviously, she is unstable if she thought she could lie her way out of it.

Awwww,man! I just lost points for no "really" add-on, but gained double points for the quadruple posting, and a bonus for an "I really don't care." Not quite breaking even, but I'll get it back. We've got a new pairing to watch for: "fruitless...really".

Keep this blog alive: Glad to see you are making money off of my writing! Wonderful really (ha, more $). Wow, you must be truly bored! 6'4" maintenance officer?? LMAO - I do hope that was not referring to your speculation of what I might be? In that case, you are more stupid than I thought really (add more $). I think I will start a pool for how much money I could make on your reference to "points". Are you that ignorant or just that ignorant??????

Julie: I agree with the instability reference. Way to many inconsistencies really (more $ for KTBA). The FBI might take a while to do their investigation and along with other government entities, the truth will come out......

Thanks for obliging, Deb - I am now breaking even, though some of the guys think it's a gimme. Never fear, we'll hash it out.

And no, sweets, the 6'4" MO is not you, just a big, goofy guy imitating you. Nuances like parody, satire, and oblique references really do escape you entirely, don't they?

Runaway Bride Sues Former Fiance

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/10/runaway.bride.ap/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

"LAWRENCEVILLE, Georgia (AP) -- The "runaway bride," who took off days before her lavish wedding in 2005, is suing her former fiance for $500,000, claiming he defrauded her out of her share of their assets, including a ladder, a gold sofa and gifts.

Jennifer Wilbanks is seeking $250,000 as her share of a home she says John C. Mason purchased through the partnership with proceeds from $500,000 received for selling their story to Regan Media in New York."....

Kurt, look! Another threat: "The FBI might take a while to do their investigation and along with other government entities..."

FBI??? Invesitagtion??? Government entities????!

Whooooo - JACKPOT, baby! The motor pool sweeps the winnings!

Awww, I'm just kiddin', Deb.

The guys think I'm bein' too hard on you. We know what you're talking about.

.........hmmmmm

I think I smell a dog in here..

I think this is Kurt's reason for his threats:
"Sure, Kevin, whatever you say. You're the boss. You can pull the plug whenever you want. Might be a good idea!"
Fairly clever idea to come to a blog and voice threats in the hope of shutting us down; what will you do next, call in a threat to the FBI so they stop investigating Jill?
Get a life and concentrate on coping with the fact that your girl Jill is about to be revealed as a deceptive, attention-seeking hillbilly. These anti-Deb G posts are simply passive-aggressive outbursts which are a result of your disappointment in Jill Metzger. It is obvious you view Deb G as the spokesperson in the anti-Jill campaign and for that Deb should be proud; she was one of the first to raise the BS flag when Jill first went missing.
Nobody said Jill should fry...stop being so dramatic! And YOU call Deb emotional?

Wizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!
A few dogs....

Willhedoit: That was priceless.....can he sue her for defrauding him out of what he thought was his wife to be? who ended up being a fraud, fake abduction story and all? This will be interesting too!

Keep this blog alive: "nothing" escapes me, nothing....I find you FUNNY.

Happyyyyyyy: Where have you been???????? We have missed you around here!

Deb:
Business Trips and lurking here when I have time.
GREAT news on the FBI investigation - just saw that article on Fox News, trying to catch up now.
Not looking good for our girl Jill : )

Dude, Deb nothing-escapes-me G. will never get your dog reference; you're gonna have to be a little more specific. Email it to her privately, so she can save some face.

Happy:

Be careful of hard objects being placed in any area of your clothing. DO NOT read anything on any piece of paper you find (careful of even those newspapers, ya just never know), practice combatives while on your business trip (ya never know when you might need to escape kidnappers in dark room) and most importantly, if you do not return to work on time, don't lie about it!!!

lurker: You are so clueless - I will not even begin to explain - perhaps Wiz can if he is still in here....

For those of you who may be interested in some of the details of life in the "SandBox"... go read:

And for those of you who admire Jill Metzger so much, go read it too.. perhaps you will be able to get a slight perspective of why I have a disdain for this lying wench.. and those like her!!

Redhead Infidel... where are you when we need you???

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1543658-1,00.html

If lurker is who I think he is, he doesn't need Wiz to explain a thing to him - unlike yourself, Deb. And unless Wiz isn't as bright as we think he is, then he knows exactly what I mean by that. I know you've made him slap himself in the head a few times.

Debbie, you are a very simple creature. Transparent and simple. You've gone everywhere we've led you, and it's been a lot of fun. You surprised us initially with how obtuse you are, and we quickly learned that you are nothing if not consistent. But, as you know, consistency leads to predictability, and predictability leads to boredom - so you'll have to excuse a few guys for trying to liven things up with petty bets. It's like a drinking game - but one they can do at work. It's harmless. Right? No one - least of all you - would ever be hurt or embarrassed by what has been written here. Right? Because you don't care, really. ($$)

By the way, don't flatter yourself needlessly with thinking how "obsessed" anyone is. We thought it would do you good to sample a little of your own medicine. You've slandered Major Metzger, her father, her mother, and her husband, all under the guise of not-so-anonymous speculation - wild, tawdry, nonsensical, sensationalistic, and malicious. No rumor was too small; no dirt too dirty. Drugs, sex, abortion, you wallowed through it all. Leading the charge, so to speak.

But wait - it's all so innocent, right? And everyone is doing it, right? You think you are free to do so because this is a blog; heaven forbid you actually have a modicum of class yourself.

Why do people direct their comments at you? Because you are the loudest, most verbose, most piercingly strident, most falsely authoritative, and least prudent commenter in here. That's why. No one is jealous of you. You are a caricature.

One of the ugliest things in human nature is to gloat at the downfall of another. It's called shadenfreude. You, Debbie, are pitifully full of it - as are many others in here.

Where's Redhead Infidel? She's one of the top milbloggers out there, why would she dick around over here forever?

FYI That Marine letter ain't secret, fer pete's sake! Redhead posted it weeks ago, and the other milblogs picked it up soon after. She's probably the one that forwarded it to Time.com. But you liked it, eh? Looks like you two have something in common after all!

-------delurked

I'm sure that RedHead and I would have SOME things in common... However, Redhead 'likes' to be on the 'winning' side.

Her blog dropped Jill Metzger like a hot IED and kept it that way. Wonder why? hmmmmm....

My 'theory' is that Redhead Infidel would drop her own baby if it turned out to be a detriment to her milblogging ability... and that my friend is why she dropped Metzger in such a big hurry!!!

The Redhead Infidel was in here leading the pack of Cheerleaders like nobody else... then, suddenly from out of nowhere, including her own blog.. the posts stopped!!

That is indicative of a very serious character flaw!! I wouldn't want to be in her skin for anything in the world.

Redhead is in it for one thing and one thing only. Don't let any of her patriotic rhetoric fool you. Go ahead... check out her site. See how long it takes you to (1) find Metzger, and (2) find any of the rah!rah! posts that were on it previously. You won't find them. WHY?

To Thine Own Self Be True

Yet here, Laertes! Aboard, aboard for shame!
The wind sits in the shoulder of your sail,
And you are stay'd for.
There ... my blessing with thee!
And these few precepts in thy memory
Look thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue,
Nor any unproportion'd thought his act.
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar.
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledg'd comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel but, being in,
Bear't that th' opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thy ear, but few thy voice;
Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgement.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man;
And they in France of the best rank and station
Are of a most select and generous chief in that.
Neither a borrower, nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell; my blessing season this in thee!

-- William Shakespeare

Wizbanger, I've read your stuff along the way and thought you were a pretty reasonable guy, though a bit flaky. But now I wonder.

As you suggested, I did a search for metzger posts on Redhead's blog and found the two original articles she wrote about the subject. It looks like she's posted about 100 articles since, so Metzger doesn't appear to be a mission for her like it is for you.

Your comments about Redhead are intensely personal - yet I venture to say you don't know her, and have never spoken to her. So why the intensity of your hatred? That really makes me see your behavior here on this blog in a whole new light.

But what I really don't get is why you say Redhead removed her posts on Metzger - and point that out as evidence of a "serious character flaw". They are both clearly still there. So why are you lying...or are you merely incompetent?

Most people have quickly moved on from this issue - even the bloggers here at Wizbang haven't touched it since. Is that evidence of their serious character flaws? There's all kind of news going on - gay scandals, nuke tests, upcoming elections. And there's been no real news on Metzger, just all the rumors swirling around here. So what should a blogger say about it? Report on every rumor as if it's fact? I think you need to step away and gain some perspective. You've already proven your judgment is flawed - no point in aggravating the offense.

Wizbanger - as you suggested, I did a search for metzger on redhead's blog. So tell me, are you lying...or merely that incompetent?

Grasshoppa: (how fitting of a little green monster). Ya better go back to the more than 1400 posts here and clearly see I have not led any charge or posted terrible comments about Metzger and her family. I have posted theories along with others......people like YOU are pretty simple with ill intent towards people who mean nothing here. Bash someone here and then bash again when someone comments back. How ironically twisted is that? LOL You might say I am a caricature and how coincidence is that because those of us here who have something to being to the table of what this area is for think the same of people like YOU, well then, how sweet is that. You have not led me anywhere, you have led yourself on a path of relentless postings and believe it or not little green creature, YOUR defense to my responses are only to bash again because you have NO DEFENSE because you make no sense. Finally, for you tiny little illogical record: noone in here, especially myself, am not gloating at the downfall of another. Metzger caused her own downfall, her own actions, not mine or not those actions of anyone in here. Again, if you would LISTEN (I know it is hard, but try), I come in here to theorize about a situation, a betrayal of an AF Officer (whether it be Metzger or Mickey Mouse) to the military, our government, a foreign country, the world really, and RELATIONS.....I am CURIOUS as to the truth. I stated I was sticking to an abortion theory, did not state that IS WHAT HAPPENED, merely speculating. I do, however, hope she is punished if she has, in fact lied. I would hope you would too. If you do not, well then, you hold no integrity.

Lastly: How ironic of you to post about me on here. You do not like others to post about Metzger, yet, you bash my character not knowing anything about me and only speculating yet I am not the one who caused the START of this blog in the first place - remember Metzger?? Have you heard about her? If you had any moral fiber or clue in your body, you would not post about others and would not care about what others put here.....now go find a nice piece of yard to hop around in before I end up squishing you by accident. Would make a little green mess.

Wizbanger, since you feel so strongly about Redhead Infidel that way, why don't you grab your balls and go over there and tell her yourself?

Will you be able to find the posts? Here's a tip: go to the search bar and type in "Metzger" and voila! Incompetence can no longer be your excuse.

Wiz: Don't let these fools spin around in here. They come in here with intent to try to shut this area down and get others to stop posting about Metzger. Kind of like those ludicrous people who go to funerals of soldiers and rant about war and rally during a family's grief from a fallen soldier or the crazy people who wanted to go to the Amish children's funerals and speak they deserved death. Taking out their anger on others for no apparent reason. I could go on, but just not worth it......

Well, I went to the hospital tonight to visit a friend who was nearly killed following a jump. Broken back, leg, crushed heal, broken arm, wrist, etc....stuff like that is important, the people posting back to commenters in here is just not important, entertaining, but not important...Came back in to see any new info. and the bashing continues. Hypocrites in here for sure. They get upset for comments posted and then post rudely to others who mean nothing - just like a protest from people who have no concept of the BIG PICTURE or the reality of what is REALLY GOING ON....

Dot: What is up with the comments? If someone does not like what someone says in here, just leave. It takes an angry person within to constantly comment about a commenter. Ludicrous. Wiz does not have to go to another area to tell someone how they feel, he is pretty secure with what he KNOWS and could care less if Redhead knows. He is merely relaying in here what is already known....

Jim H: In Wiz's defense, Redhead has been in here and has said some rude comments to several people.

You write:

Your comments about Redhead are intensely personal - yet I venture to say you don't know her, and have never spoken to her. So why the intensity of your hatred? That really makes me see your behavior here on this blog in a whole new light.

Ya know, I feel the EXACT same way for folks posting here.

I recall Redhead in here. Point here is: this area is for speculating and tryig to figure out what happened to Metzger. It should not be an area for others to bash others here. I can assure you that I HIGHLY DOUBT anyone here has ill intent toward Metzger on a personal level, and that anything posted here is in relation to a situation the entire world is aware of. Kind of like global warming and the N. Korea Nuclear test and so on.....people comment about situations. Commenting about someone commenting is just ignorance. Responding to someone commenting about someone commenting is fun. Thank you for making this place fun....

And what's that, deb? What is Wizbanger relaying that is already known? What little he did relay was wrong, so what am I missing?

dot: Wiz is not wrong. I have been in here to witness much said by Redhead. I have seen the lies, the brutal outbursts and so on.....Sorry, I am standing by Wiz. He has been one of the most fun and most intelligent bloggers/commenters in here. Always humor and reality in the content. I truly believe too many people in here take things way too personal. I have fun with it, Wiz has fun with it - even with people posting against us. The ones who are relentless with bashing folks in here like us don't have a clue of WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON.....

Out damn spot, Out!!!

--Shakesphere--

-------Jim

Well, hi Jimmy... nice of you to stop in. And, as Bartle & James would say.."I appreciate your Support" Now, let's go over your 'paper'..

As to my qualifications... I am capable of multi-tasking, that is, I can follow quite a number of things simultaneously.. you could say I've been trained in that.

First, I appreciate your approach on your post. Very nicely put, and for the casual observer, it may be a "GOOD ONE". But, first let me critique you on a couple of your less than astute observations.

1). Disdain, albeit a harse word, is not in the same category as HATRED. (more on that later) Furthermore, to couple your mis-quote with "intensity". Not good.. (you get an "F")

2). "Intensly personal" If you mean "directed toward a particular person", then yes, it is 'personal' and personal would suffice. Nevertheless, INTENSLY personal is a bad use of the English language..(You get a "C-")

3). "doesn't appear to be a mission for her.." At this point... you are absolutely correct.. (You get an "A") She has 'shifted' from her 'losing' position to one which will serve her better. It would appear that one who initially approached this issue with such fevor, would still be "in there" defending the cause. I'll leave it at that! A lot of fizzle... no substance!

"But what I really don't get is why you say Redhead removed her posts on Metzger - and point that out as evidence of a "serious character flaw". They are both clearly still there. So why are you lying...or are you merely incompetent?"

4). In answer to your question: I will give you the Discordian 'Mu'. (go look that up then sit and think about it for a while) Ahhh, on to your 'paper'...Another mis-quote, coupled with a Loaded Question, otherwise known as logical fallacy: (at this point I am tempted to fail you for the entire course!!!) However, I am confident that you have some promise.. just hang in there Jimmy.(Nevertheless, I am compelled to give you an 'F') Now, be a good boy, and re-read what I posted:

"The Redhead Infidel was in here leading the pack of Cheerleaders like nobody else... then, suddenly from out of nowhere, including her own blog.. the posts stopped!!

That is indicative of a very serious character flaw!! I wouldn't want to be in her skin for anything in the world."

I stand by what I said!! RedHead was in here hooping it up for a while.. then the tide turned.. and she went with it. Jimmy, if you have friends like RedHead...beware.. they're there only in good times. Furthermore, if you are so inclined, you may want to go back and match up the 'posts' and the departure times... you will may notice that they 'just happened' to occur at about the same time that something else was going on.. go on.. go figure that one out..

5). "You've already proven your judgment is flawed - no point in aggravating the offense." You're pushing it Jimmy.. But, let me say this. In very short order I came to my 'conclusion' on Jill Metzger. I believe it was within a couple of days actually. To date, Jill Metzger has not proven me wrong on my 'judgement' and I sertiously doubt that she will.

Despite your valiant effort to defend the RedHead Infidel, I will hold to my assessment of her. That, Jimmy boy, is my prerogative... as is the case with Jill Metzger. I won't bore you with other accounts of my 'judgement', from which I earn a good living, and enjoy doing.

The question now, Jimmy, is do you want my 'judgement' on you?

Class is over.

DM:

"Kuba, I've read through many posts regarding Metzger on the libertypost.org and was wondering - are you Idol Hanz?
Posted by: DM at October 10, 2006 09:59 AM"

Idol Hanz is Idol Hanz. He is American guy.
And Kuba is Kuba. He is Kyrgyz lad.

Should've noticed by now that by difference in usage of English between me and Idol Hanz. English is not my native language.
In fact, English is very foreign language for me.

Lurker:

You posted my posting out of the context. I was referencing to posting in www.libertypost.org

"Someone posted funny stuff on Metzger subject about Metzger's claims that she was robbed.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=158587

Silly female Air Force Major make big lie story--say she robbed by Kyrgyz bandit. But we see big diamond ring on hand! What you think--we fool? We no know value diamond ring? Who silly fool now! You ALL go home! You lose war, Kyrgz warlord laugh at you! You no understand Asia, you fool!

Posted by: Kuba Kyrgyz at October 9, 2006 07:46 AM "

Deb G:

It's really amazing, that how many people are trying to push you out of this board. Talk about agenda here. What are they up to? What they are trying to achieve?

Sorry, but for me the specific person doing the misconduct is nothing more than the identity of the person involved in situation and circumstance needing inquiry and corrective actions. Last I checked the USAF claims commitment to the following three core values. Integrity First, Service before self, Excellence in all we do. My concern is something needs to be done other than abandoning core values.

In regard to Integrity, it is more than Major Metzger's integrity being put into question by the situation and circumstances. In this regard the incident and current explanation puts into question the integrity of all holding a military commission.

There is a higher expected minimum moral character expected of those receiving a military commission. The expected moral competency is one of the reasons the requirement of a four year baccalaureate degree is a mandatory minimum qualification requirement for eligibility for appointment to hold a military commission. The higher moral cognitive ability is the presumed result of a higher education achievement.

My interest does not result from personal interest in her as a person, but rather in the person holding a military commission which is a legal instrument given to a person expected to bring high moral conduct and behavior into the execution of the duties of the military and who consequently should be held to higher standard for misconduct and criminal wrong doing the enlisted member of the military service. I believe misconduct of significant criminal nature occurred and my curiosity is of what moral courage will be shown pertinent to commitment to core values that top leaders say is important to them and me.

Out damn spot, Out!!! --Shakesphere-- Posted by: Deb G.

LOL-the works of Shakespeare and other great writings were a mandatory requirement for graduating from high school several decades ago. When Lady Macbeth uttering it she was having an emotional and mental breakdown from guilt. She also had an obsession that caused her to goads her husband into to doing a deed she came to regret.

Are you hinting a need of a visit from those wearing the white jackets or perhaps of a vacation at the funny farm?

Wiz: Always a great response. Shouldn't be needed, but great nonetheless.

Kuba: Insecurity, yes jealousy and an agenda. They say entertainment, however, the REAL people in here know those bashing others are the clowns.

johca: Without going into detail, I meant exactly that - however, the ones bashing others in here are acting like this....Relentless bashing, thinking it is entertaining, thinking they are getting folks like me rattled, but in reality, they look INSANE with ill intent and just never STOP simulating mental breakdown of not liking what people post in here - get it??? quite simple for intelligent minds.

Kuba: People post back to me because they want a response. They don't realize how silly they look when I respond and then they or someone else responds again and then they comment about how I must care because I respond yet they are the ones who keep commenting - FUNNY STUFF! Like that whack a mole game, you hit one, another pops up, hit another one, another one pops up or like when you have a dog who does tricks - give him a treat and he will keep doing tricks! Seems I have trained some folks in here very well - good boys and girls. They think I am the funny one yet they look like the circus people provoked by ONE person they don't even know and way off topic from the Metzger situation. Posting directly to me about character is ignorant, when I post back, they can't take it and insinuate I should stop, poor kids, they don't like when the bully does not get his way. I come in here to check updates and get comments directed to me - simple answer: they are BORED and don't know how to participate in the class project so they divert attention to another alternative which they feel is easier to accomplish, really sad (does that count toward $ for KTBA because that was reversed?)....could be double "points"....geesh

Kuba: Lastly, people like to jump on the band wagon and be with the "in" crowd. A true high school scenario. Some kids start beating up a kid and they don't even know why they are doing it, but others jump in because they think it is cool even though they have no real idea why they are doing it, most of the time they don't even know the kid. Well, the real courage comes from the kids who stick up for the kid getting beaten (maybe he has ugly glasses, or a big nose or getting into bigger things, his religion, being from a foreign country, etc...). It takes courage to step up and defend someone or disagree with others. It shows individuality, a strong will and courage. I don't really KNOW anyone in here, but I see those traits in people like you Kuba, and Julie, and Wizbanger Poster and anyone else who does not jump on the band wagon of bashing someone around them and then making games out of it, betting games and so forth. Now, if those who want to jump into the fight that they are not really sure of all the details, perhaps they should start at the beginning of these posts and read EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM to realize where the conflict started. It is easier to joing the "gang", jump on the bandwagon and hang with the brutes because being an individual with courage is "dangerous" and if you look at any HERO in this world you will see those exact traits.....
As for the Metzger situation, well, she did that to herself and seeing how people like myself were worried about her when she went missing and checking daily to see if she had been found only to think we have now been lied to and deceived, I don't stand by this and know she was not truthful and I have the courage to stick to my opinion without joining the band wagon of others who think she just might have had that bomb in her pocket and followed a note enduced by a trance theory.....oh my, nearly forgot, do those of you bashing folks like us even know about this situation??? or do you just come into this area to act like small children and keep commenting about people like me and others in here??? I hope you realize how SMALL you look when you keep doing this......teeny tiny small....

and Happyyyyyyyyyyy - how could I forget happy!!

Did someone turn up the heat in here?

Those folks like the little green bug and ktba won't theorize on Metzger because they would rather try to go through old posts and find things to question everyone else about. It is their way to feel superior. Those who won't discuss the issues at hand but try to find flaws and inconsistencies in your posts rather than discussing Metzger are the ones with the dereliction of character.

Kuba:

I like your heroin theory...Although, I know she would be tested for drugs in the military-It is also not all that uncommon for women to use heroin, cocaine and meth to get and/or stay skinny, especially if she wasn't able to keep up her running schedule @ Manas-She definitely wouldn't want to put on any pounds.

This could go back to my previous post that when she finally gives something up to the FBI, she then immediately enters a treatment facility (crisis management) and in a hushed manner is exited from the military. I am not military thus I don't know if, 1) is an addiction eligible for medical discharge 2) would this decrease her liability for her being AWOL, if she were high?

I still like the abortion theory but am throwing this out there.

Kuba,

I was just curious. Your use of English is pretty good and Idol Hanz doesn't always sound like a native English speaker. To use an Idol Hanz post that is similar to that which was quoted above, it doesn't sound like he is an American, referring to the Kyrgyz as "we"...

"Silly girl Air Force major tell big lie story! She insult good Kyrgyz people! She go home now and take suitcase with her! She say Kyrgyz bandit robbed her but we see big diamond on hand! What you think, we stupid!? We no know value diamond! You Americans all go home now! You wreck Kyrgyz President Airplane last week! You American all walking and flying disaster, need new home! You send silly girl big lie story Major to fight war, now Kyrgyz warlord laugh at you! You lose war! You all go home now! We want money for airplane you wreck and damage for slander you make against good Kyrgyz people! You send big gas airplane that wreck into our airplane! We want new airplane now! You pack suitcase now. You 2 time charlie, you no good!

Idol Hanz posted on 2006-10-06 20:22:29 ET"

No new info. on Metzger today, dang. I will check back later....

Wiz: Just wanted to let you know that I have a very good "judgment" on you, based on intelligence, ability to breeze through conflict with humor, participation in debate, plausible deniability does not phase you and you understand it, intel tactics, reality and puzzles are part of your fiber, you defend others you feel should be defended (not just myself), standing your ground and opinions and always maintaining HUMOR. You are one of the, if not the best blogger in this comment/blog/post area....

Deb G:

If talking to you is anything like reading your writing then I sure as hell would need lot's of booze to be around you. You just can't shut up... when you reply, you do so in 4-8 bursts of the same old s#!t. 'silly really'. When you just go on and on and on, you just look 'tiny tiny small'.... blah, blah, blah. Oh, and 'jealous'. You really 'sound' crazy.

What made me post was your recent entry where you potray yourself and your "foxhole mates" as "heroes". Are you INSANE? Being a minority voice does not make you a hero. 'silly really'.

Wiz surely has great written communication skills and makes great arguments but, a "hero"? If so, its not due to his presence on the blog. Is Johca a hero? Assuming his PJ identiy is legit, then "yes"... but not because of his blog presence. Quit throwing around these words as if they are cliches... you destroy their value. Heroes don't need to proclaim thier status...nor do men and women who live by the creeds of honor, courage, etc. You rattle them off as if you just finished a novel or something. What about when you faked other identities to pump up "Deb G"? Then you want to preach to others?

There are several "guilty" parties in here BUT you are the target because of your BIG 'MOUTH'. You might be brilliant... a savant for all I know but the common sense train apparently left town without you.

If I were Wiz, I'd quietly start looking into a new foxhole before he gets pulled deeper into crazyville with mayor Deb.

BTW: does your argument mean that the posts from defenders of Jill are "heros"? It should, because they are certainly the minority on this blog. Oh, and I have read ALL of the posts.

Now... go find your long overdue meds. (How you EVER got into a sensitive job which would require a polygraph is well beyond me... you certainly lack the discretion needed with those positions).

If your persona on this blog is reflective of the real Deb G, then I'm confident that your weight is being pulled by more mature members within your unit.

Maybe this is old, but considering how slow the board has gotten in regards to Metzger, I'll take a chance on being boring. What are possible reasons for the US Embassy removing Metzger before local police were satisfied? I don't know what Manas is like, but some people on this board do - why not just take her there to provide her with the medical treatment she needed? I've wondered about this and wanted some opinions.

Come on, Idol Hanz is obviously an English speaker poking fun by pretending to be a Kyrgyz butchered-English-speaker. His syntax sounds more fakey Vietnamese than anything.

The use of illegal drugs in the military is a criminal offense, not a medical one. If someone comes up positive on a drug test, it's a legal matter and not a medical one. So to answer Julie's question: no, a drug addict wouldn't get a medical discharge. They'd get a dishonorable discharge. It would be REALLY hard to be a heroin addict in the military. Almost impossible. Random drug screens are done FREQUENTLY; an active duty member usually gets tapped for a urine sample once or twice a year and they're hard to cheat (an observer watches you pee into the cup).

VR- and a truly dedicated observer will hold the cup for you! :)

just add some variety here while we wait for the verdict, errrr, climax (STS) of this cliffhanger:

here's a Jill Metzger FACTOID:

between her freshman and sophomore year in college, Jill's summer break job was at a bikini car wash in Myrtle Beach, SC. (no kidding).

Julie: Was just about to leave and saw your post. Drug use to stay skinny? Great theory! Now, giving her some credit, would she be that insane or "stupid" to do that? Perhaps knowing she would be drug tested and most likely tested again at the Marathon?? yikes. Perhaps maybe even a drug to induce stamina and speed....on to something here....yup, I will stick to the abortion theory too, but one just never knows and crazier things have happened....Idol Hanz sounds Chinese to me.......

:-)

Deb G:

I agree. Maaaybee a performance enhancing drug but doubtful. Jill wouldn't need to worry about drug use for weight control. Remeber, she is a world class runner and doesn't face the same weight challenges that many of us might.

The abortion theory is where my bet is.

IKJ: I doubt the drug theory too, but at this point anything is possible. Staying on the abortion theory unless something else comes up more simple and better....

DOD lurker: Your comment pours of immaturity and character bashing. I have some thoughts on you as well, but I will hold them in as heck, I don't even know you nor do I believe you work for DOD. Big mouth? Ah, this is a comment area and my responses are to those with written comments about me as I cannot hear nor see a "big mouth". You make no sense and are clueless as you have no idea of the person I am and this comment area cannot possibly portray someone's true character. As far as a Hero, I am more familiar with what and who they are and consist of then you could probably even fathom and for you to believe or think I meant a serious HERO in regards to people posting here, then you are more well, stilly really (stupid) than you write....This is a comment area, which does not form a Hero in the true sense....DO YOU KNOW WHAT HUMOR AND REFLECTIVE WRITING IS? No, did not think so. I would imagine and hope most in here would know what I meant by referring to courage and a Hero in light sense....

IKJ: bikini wash? I can't help but think Metzger is really attention starved.....maybe the reasoning for training so hard at marathons and wanting to excel. Without bashing her family, perhaps she never did anything exactly good enough for her family, or mother or father or both????? leading to the cause of her recent actions....

Lets ask Kuba: What is Idol Hanz - Chinese, Vietnamese, Kryg with a bad accent???? help us out here...

Thanks VR: I am thinking the drugs would be a pretty STUPID move on her part...but what possibility of going missing (other than actually being abducted) isn't stupid. I like the abortion theory best but if we could remove some of the culpability from Jill...

I know this was visited earlier...I could entertain the idea that she was raped and due to her position as a Major, woman, perhaps was drinking, etc., did not report it and that is how she wound up pregnant...or at least maybe this is how the story will go. A false accusation of rape, like Jennifer Wilbanks.

Bikini car wash? Did I read that right? *rubbing eyes*

oh and DOD lurker: mimicking and imitation is the finest form of flattery so Thank You. Childish and immature to do, but Thank You - now, go find your own form of character and stop copying mine :-)

Or maybe she was just gifted with athleticism and drive and parents who encouraged success.

Deb G,

This one is sung to the tune of the Beverly Hill-Billies....

Hmmmmm,
This is a story bout a gal named Jill,
Poor Officer trying keep the horses fed
Booted out her hubby for INFIDELTY..
Then axed why is everyone bashing me?

Fraud, waste abuse....

Next thang yuh know ole Debs a commenteer,
Happy, Julie & Wiz cry never leave here!
You our Metzger rumor CELEBRITY...
as Deb posts and comments from work with glee.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
The Metzger Hill-Billies!

as sung by sister Jethrene

Deb G:

"As far as a Hero, I am more familiar with what and who they are and consist of then you could probably even fathom..."

How?

"I don't even know you nor do I believe you work for DOD"

maybe I'm a SEAL, maybe a cook. maybe an artillery NCO, maybe an O-6. maybe a Marine or maybe AF too. maybe I'm in a polygraph required job, maybe not. heck, maybe "DOD" stands for "Donuts of Dallas". bottom line is this: if I AM in a sensitive or "heroic" position, I'm smart enough to not come onto the WWW to boast about it. I'm immature? funny...'really'.

I'm quite capable of reading things in context...let me repost your words. And, if this was indeed "humor and reflective" then your friends Wiz and Julie should be pissed that you apparently mocked them.

"I don't really KNOW anyone in here, but I see those traits in people like you Kuba, and Julie, and Wizbanger Poster and anyone else who does not jump on the band wagon of bashing someone around them and then making games out of it, betting games and so forth. Now, if those who want to jump into the fight that they are not really sure of all the details, perhaps they should start at the beginning of these posts and read EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM to realize where the conflict started. It is easier to joing the "gang", jump on the bandwagon and hang with the brutes because being an individual with courage is "dangerous" and if you look at any HERO in this world you will see those exact traits....."

Now you go pretend to do something important at work like, oh I don't know, "defending my freedom"
(one of your older mantras) and I'll just go back to making the donuts.

DM: You are probably right. Seems her parents pushed her for success, but who really knows....if it was an abortion, could have been one wild night party on the 4th of July with one of the Marines she was flirting and squirting and then bang, she is an international story because of her lies.....Without the abduction story, this would never be where it has gotten.

Jeth: Wow, you certainly are bored and it didn't sound very good so, keep trying......flattering to attempt to write a ahh, err song? very poor attempt - clueless absolutely clueless...

DOD: Joker comes to mind. I don't care who you are or what you do. Good one, trying to turn those against me in here LOL. You truly have no idea and cannot interpret writing. I admire the courage of Julie, Wiz, Happy, Kuba and several others in here. However, I am CERTAIN they are intelligent enough to know and understand that a medal for being a Hero does not come with the courage from a comment area like this. However, many a rea hero shows the type of courage for having individual thinking and not trying to be a part of a "band wagon" mentality. Get it??? Try to. I don't think you understand that things posted in here mean nothing to the reality of the daily lives of anyone in here.....silly really - ah, there is my personality trait coming out....imagine that, being individual.....

I don't like doughnuts, but I am glad you make them.....have you EVER heard of the phrase "time to make the doughnuts".....now, for anyone in here involved in certain areas of work, you would understand, for those who are not, then yes, that man on the Dunkin Doughnuts seems to come to mind....DOD, somebody's got to do it....

DEB G/S:

"I don't like doughnuts, but I am glad you make them.....have you EVER heard of the phrase "time to make the doughnuts".....now, for anyone in here involved in certain areas of work, you would understand, for those who are not, then yes, that man on the Dunkin Doughnuts seems to come to mind....DOD, somebody's got to do it...."

What the hell does that mean?

The current Air Force Times issue has an article about Jill Metzger...her picture is even on the front page (in the top corner).
http://www.airforcetimes.com. Has anyone read what it is about? Although it is printed in hard copy, you have to be a member to read the electronic version.

The article is titled "Major Mystery"

Excerpt: Airman's father: 'They beat her up'
Maj. Jill Metzger, the Air Force personnel officer who went missing in Kyrgyzstan for three days last month, was kidnapped, beaten and tortured by her captors, her father said Sept. 28.

"I, Jill Metzger, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

At the time she departed (perhaps willingly on surveillance camera) from her group she no longer was following orders from the President of the United States. She was no longer doing what she SWORE to do. She was no longer doing her job. She perhaps "willingly" (http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=39393&archive=true) departed from her group and is currently being investigated by the FBI because her story does not add up. The FBI is investigating her because there obviously something to be investigated. Again, it gives us something to "talk" about.

Are you still wondering why people are picking on Jill? This is a place for people to discuss the events surrounding "Jill's abduction." We are engaging in a discourse about it. We can't help that it appears that there wasn't an abduction.

This is more than about Jill...It is about an oath she took, her fellow comrades, her country and our relationships with other countries. It is not just about poor Jill and your disdain for the people here who want the truth to come out.

Easier to understand now or do I need to set it to music?

The previous post was to Jeth....

Jeth: I can give you a hint on why people are questioning the character of Ms. Metzger...She swore the following upon entering the USAF:

Maj F: Any info on the Grand Jury?

DOD: I didn't think you would understand that. For security reasons, I will cease any explanation.

Julie: You're on it girl. PERFECT explanation. Much more than about Metzger on a personal level, this is about an international situation beyond the scope of just Metzger's being. The lies, the AF not saying anything, the AF taking her immediately out of the area, nothing being said to media after the media spread the word she was abducted - Manas being unable to leave base now, people WONDERING if the area is safe, the kryg people NOT being told anything as to whether or not there are kidnappers lurking around and on and on.....this is the reason why so many people have taken an interest in this....

If you don't want to follow an oath - don't go in the Army, if you don't want to get wet, don't go in the water, if you don't want to get burned, don't play with fire, if you don't want to make national and international attention, don't lie about being abducted.....

Deb-G

And if I am an officer in the army and like you, I guess I'll comment all day from my work computer on this blog. Then I'll just lie and say I never use my government computer.

I invite everyone to look at the times of DEBs postings. I wish I had you tough job. Where do I sign up?

You are a piece of work, The epitome of an Officer; No Integrity and and a REMF slacker in the office.

Shouldn't you be fighting a war or somthing?

OH I forgot your protecting my freedom...chortle...chortle...

Jethrene,

That is right, Deb. Good addition...Well, Someone is in the hot seat now for playing with fire, she had gotten wet when she had worked in the bikini car wash and she did in fact take the oath. You sure did nail them all on the head! And, well the international news...again, good one!

Maj F, I'm interested too...

Does anyone on here have access to the Air Force Times, either hard copy or online?

Just read the AF Times piece.
- No new substantive information IMO
- Her dad says she won't talk much because she's so "traumatized"
- She was subpeonaed
- Testified at a federal grand jury on 5 Oct
- Article written as though she testified for court to issue indictment for some Kyrgyz person in absentia
- Her dad describes the internet chatter as "bogus junk"

Thanks AA

AA left out a couple interesting tidbits --
her captors "beat her up real bad, had a rope around her neck, her face black and blue". He also said the rope left abrasions on her neck. She lost wheight during her ordeal -- went from 107 down to 90 pounds. After somehow escaping, ran for 7 hours through the countryside (estimated 35 to 40 miles).
"[The investigation is] not really about Jill. It's about diplomatic channels. It's about foreign relations, and she's just kind of caught in the middle right now."
Grand jury hearing is "to validate that she was abducted" so the Justice Dept can investigate in Kyrgyz.

Oh,and one more thing -- the article ends with
John Metzger said his daughter has no desire to be caught up in international diplomacy.
"Her words were, 'I want to be under the radar screen.'" he said.
"She doesn't want to deal with anyone right now except for her family."

ijosha - Thanks for the additional info

Someone bring in Kuba!!! 1/2 the article was in revelation of our "rocky less than perfect" relations with the Kyrgyz people/govt. i.e. MEDIA NOT SO CLEVERLY SHIFTING FOCUS
Honestly--regardless of what the truth is the AF will vindicate this officer and/or it will quietly go away...under the radar screen so to speak.

Thanks AA and ijosha!

Just start a list of 'unexplained' details and see how it all falls into place with 'dads' account: (cut and paste if you want)

a. 'pocket bomb'
b. observed on camera leaving alone
c. departure not witnessed by group
d. trance state
e. only 'one-like-it' abduction...

If I recall correctly, the Kyrgyz Police said that Jill did not appear to have been beaten!!

But the woman at the house where Metzger showed up said that her face was bruised.

To all conspiracy theorists & Maj Metzger Bashers;

What will you do and post if all your speculative theories are proven wrong?

Have you considered the impact of your posted comments on the military and Maj Metzgers family?

I welcome stones from those who have never made mistakes.

b/c I, for one, am certainly not perfect.

I hope the truth eventually comes out, either against MAJ Metzger, or for her.

OBTW Kuddos to AA for the impartial research minus the personal opinion and rumors.

Yes, there are several inconsistencies in what was reported over the days of abuction/recovery. Another that has puzzled me regards her cellphone -- some said calls went unanswered to her phone, others said that call were from her phone prior to being turned off.

WizBanger: I've always tended to treat with a grain of salt item b in your list -- that may or may not be her (I'd like to hear testimony from her shopping companions that it looked like her, what she was carying, etc.), it is not clear to me that the person shown is actually leaving, and so forth. It would also sure be nice to see of the approximately 15 minutes she was there, the purported other instances where she was video'd, supposedly with the same male stranger nearby in three of those instances.

jethro: I in no way expressed personal opinion -- everything I said in the previous posts are quoted from the article. The only embelishments were to add italics and bold on the last statement.

ijosha,

I don't understand your comment to me. I did not mention you by name. However I agree with your statement: " I in no way expressed personal opinion.

nuff said

jethro: Sorry, I guess I was being overly sensitive, reacting to the fact that you gave kudos for impartiality to only AA (implying to me that you thought that I was not). I guess I've been reading the endless/childish dialog going on in here for WAY too long :-)