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Pope Benedict XVI? Glad I voted for him

The more I think about Pope Benedict's remarks last week, and the fallout thereof, the more I think I like this guy.

He initially quoted they Byzantine emperor Manuel II, who said in 1391:

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

It provoked a HUGE furor, with all sorts of people -- not just Muslims, but some others as well -- calling him all sorts of names and demanding all kinds of apologies and acts of contrition and even some for some serious retribution against the Pontiff.

Then he issued his apology, stating that he"sincerely regrets that certain passages of his address could have sounded offensive to the sensitivities of the Muslim faithful..."

A few accused Bennie (I like him so much, I feel comfortable calling him by a nickname) of weaseling, of backing down from his initial statement. Hell, at first, so did I. But then I thought about it some more, and two things struck me:

1) While whole hosts of people got bent out of shape over his quoting Manuel II, I didn't see too many refutations of it, with people citing just where Manuel got it wrong and showing some positive innovations from Islam.

2) Bennie's "apology" followed the liberal model of such things, saying in essence "I'm sorry you were offended." He didn't say he was wrong, that he regretted saying it, or any of the other hallmarks of a sincere apology; he just said he felt badly that some folks didn't like hearing it.

I have a lot of issues with the Catholic Church in general, and I'm not really thrilled with a lot of Benedict XVI's notions and policies, but in this matter he's got this agnostic firmly in his corner.

Can I have an "AMEN!" from the people?


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Comments (62)

AMEN!... (Below threshold)

AMEN!

Amen, brother !... (Below threshold)
audrey:

Amen, brother !

Ditto!... (Below threshold)
Diane C. Russell:

Ditto!

ya know..if you folks want ... (Below threshold)
Drew:

ya know..if you folks want to live in a world over 500 years ago..before Martin Luther literally nailed the Cath Church..before so many of the white folks came to America because of Cath crap like this...then I say Amen....
Jesus expressed love to a whore..a tax collecter was one of his disciples..his message was one of tolerance(I can quote scripture)
C'mon..how about some amens for the Spanish Cath. Inquisition..


Dear Jay! I completely agre... (Below threshold)

Dear Jay! I completely agree with you - having the same distance from the Catholic Church (compare with my blog), except that I am impressed by one thing: are you an atheist who became a Cardinal and actually voted for Bennie? :-) Or what do you mean by saying that you voted for him?

Amen, Bennie!!!Catho... (Below threshold)
Elroy Jetson:

Amen, Bennie!!!
Catholics have looked upon their shameful past history with forced conversions and the Pope has invited Muslims to do the same. The answer was quite predictable when you consider most of these people are still living in the 7th Century.
Somehow I get the feeling that this was not the kind of dialogue Khatami had in mind when he was on his "Smiling face of Islam" tour here in America. It is too frank and honest for his tastes.

<a href="http://www.ushmm.o... (Below threshold)
Drew:
AMEN! May god continue to ... (Below threshold)
Jo:

AMEN! May god continue to give this man the wisdom and strength to speak out against the oh so peaceful religion ;)

Yeah the old , "My God is b... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Yeah the old , "My God is better then your God" argument. That always has worked so well in the past to settle disputes.

I would like to comment on ... (Below threshold)
Moin ansari:

I would like to comment on the Pope’s recent message denigrating the prophet Muhammad and misinterpreting Islam and misunderstanding jihad (self control).

1) John Paul II was the embodiment of the love of Jesus and he endeared people to him and Catholicism. Praying to the common God and joint prayers were a fantastic manifestation of our common humanity. Any other direction will alienate Muslims, Christians and Jews away from each other.

2) Arab armies never conquered or stayed in India, Indonesia, Malaysia, or Bangladesh, where 80% of all Muslims reside. Arab armies did reach the Indus, but Mohammad bin Qasim quickly withdrew. The conversions for a vast majority of Muslims (who now live in Asia)was by Sufis and traders and by example and because Islam was LOGICAL and simple...pray to one God.

3) In the 7th century, Arab armies comprised of less than 25,000 able bodied men as soldiers, out of a population of 50,000. It is a physical impossibility to spread Islam to millions with such a small army or by force of arms. Muslims could not have spread Islam through the sword from Arabia to Morocco and destroyed the Byzantine and Roman empires, if Islam did not have grass level appeal based on "Arianism" (unity of God), which was never actually eliminated even though Emperor Constantine had imposed trinity at the Council of Nicea in 325AD.

4) The idea of holy war or jihad (which is about defending the community or at most about establishing rule by Muslims, not about imposing the faith on individuals by force) is also not a Quranic doctrine. The doctrine was elaborated much later, on the Umayyad-Byzantine frontier, long after the Prophet's death. In fact, in early Islam it was hard to join, and Christians who asked to become Muslim were routinely turned away. The tyrannical governor of Iraq, al-Hajjaj, was notorious for this rejection of applicants, because he got higher taxes on non-Muslims. Arab Muslims had conquered Iraq, which was then largely pagan, Zoroastrian, Christian and Jewish. But they weren't seeking converts and certainly weren't imposing their religion. http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/09/15/18311787.php

5) But there have been many schools of Islamic theology and philosophy. The Mu'tazilite school maintained exactly what the Pope is saying, that God must act in accordance with reason and the good as humans know them. The Mu'tazilite approach is still popular in Zaidism and in Twelver Shiism of the Iraqi and Iranian sort. The Ash'ari school, in contrast, insisted that God was beyond human reason and therefore could not be judged rationally. (I think the Pope would find that Tertullian and perhaps also John Calvin would be more sympathetic to this view within Christianity than he is).

As for the Quran, it constantly appeals to reason in knowing God, and in refuting idolatry and paganism, and asks, "do you not reason?" "do you not understand?" (a fala ta`qilun?)
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/09/15/18311787.php

6) The idea of holy war or jihad (which is about defending the community or at most about establishing rule by Muslims, not about imposing the faith on individuals by force) is also not a Quranic doctrine. The doctrine was elaborated much later, on the Umayyad-Byzantine frontier, long after the Prophet's death. In fact, in early Islam it was hard to join, and Christians who asked to become Muslim were routinely turned away. The tyrannical governor of Iraq, al-Hajjaj, was notorious for this rejection of applicants, because he got higher taxes on non-Muslims. Arab Muslims had conquered Iraq, which was then largely pagan, Zoroastrian, Christian and Jewish. But they weren't seeking converts and certainly weren't imposing their religion.
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/09/15/18311787.php

7) Did the Pope have selective amnesia about tolerating the holocaust, sprinkling holy water on the marching Nazi soldiers, directing the crusades, supporting the ethnic cleansing of native Americans, supporting conquistador invasions, administering the Spanish inquisition, encouraging colonialism to civilize the natives, and finding quotes in the Bible to support slavery.


7) Finally, that Byzantine emperor that the Pope quoted, Manuel II? The Byzantines had been weakened by Latin predations during the fourth Crusade, so it was in a way Rome that had sought coercion first. And, he ended his days as a vassal of the Ottoman Empire.
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/09/15/18311787.php


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade

8) Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire did not agree with the Vatican. He wrote the quote during the siege of Constantinople.

9) The propaganda against our prophet has been waged for centuries, and Muslims keep growing. The more they send crusades, the more Islam grows.

10) [2:62] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians-- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. '

May God forgive the sins of the Pope and may he find enlightenment. God Bless him.

.................. when you... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

.................. when you consider most of these people are still living in the 7th Century.


Posted by: Elroy Jetson

Yeah when they catch up with our 9th century Catholic/ Christian Religions then we should stop bombing them.

I am just so disgusted that... (Below threshold)
fran:

I am just so disgusted that the Pope decided to recant all that stuff he said and now says he is "deeply sorry". So much for infallibility. Turns out he is just a Muslim-lover like all the rest of the liberals when the pressure is on, he doesn't have the stomach for a really holy war.

Those Muslim barbarians;</p... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Those Muslim barbarians;

http://www.europas-historie.net/hispaniola-50a.JPG


I mean I see the attraction of painting everything with the simplicity of either black or white like the modern neocon likes to do. I mean life is just SO much simpler that way.

But unfortunately some of us are stuck wanting to know the truth and are unable to accept these simplifications because we are uncompromising with the truth and all its shades of grade.

AMEN! Well put, and I hope ... (Below threshold)
Zsa Zsa:

AMEN! Well put, and I hope the Pope won't be strong armed bt those dopes...

muirgeo:Others mig... (Below threshold)

muirgeo:

Others might accuse you of having a "September 10th" mentality. That's not fair.

You're fixated on stuff that happened decades, if not centuries ago.

We're dealing with the here and now. Perhaps you've heard of it.

And before you bring out the "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it," let me give you a new catchphrase: "those who spend all their time looking backwards tend to walk off cliffs."

J.

I too am confused how you c... (Below threshold)
Guess Who:

I too am confused how you can claim to have voted for the Holy Father. Perhaps you are a Cardinal running a blog for fun in his spare time.

I think the Muslims are just proving the point of their violent ways by rioting and attacking churches. The ironic thing is, they're not smart enough to attack the right churches. They're attacking Orthodox and Protestant churches.

I am somewhat disappointed in the Vatican issuing the quasi-apology. It seems that for some reason in the world, people are afraid to offend Muslims, but to hell with everyone else. Look at the Democrats who are going against Bush's interrogation legislation. They want to give these Muslim terrorists more rights than our soldiers get when they're captured. Newsflash...the Geneva convention only applies to uniformed soldiers fighting for a state...not terrorists.

I digress.

It's amazing to me how it is so socially permissible to mock the Catholic Church with jokes about priests, yet the minute someone says something against another religion (which isn't even what his holiness did), all hell breaks loose. What a double standard.

All Pope Benedict did was quote someone to illustrate how some Muslims have used Islam to buttress their violence.

Arab armies never conque... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

Arab armies never conquered or stayed in India, Indonesia, Malaysia, or Bangladesh, where 80% of all Muslims reside. Arab armies did reach the Indus, but Mohammad bin Qasim quickly withdrew. The conversions for a vast majority of Muslims (who now live in Asia)was by Sufis and traders and by example and because Islam was LOGICAL and simple...pray to one God.

India was taken over by Islamic force more than once. Your qualifier of 'Arab' is deceptive.

I wish he hadn't even given... (Below threshold)

I wish he hadn't even given that much of an apology.

And it's rther typical that the usual suspects have stepped up to compare the Catholic past to the Muslim present. I guess we're all screwed, since the prerequisite for speaking Truth is eternal perfection.

And Moin ansari must have missed the "conversions" of the FOX reporters at the point of a gun. Not to mention all the warnings about violence in response to Benedict's suggestion that Islam is violent. Surely those giving the warnings believe that it is *true*.

I wish he hadn't issued even that non-apology.

How can we expect any Muslim to denounce violence if Benedict backs down? How can we expect any "moderate" Muslim to speak up if our media, the high-priests of free speech back down from threats of violence?

My God forgive Muslims, Moin ansari, for failing to denounce those who truely denegrate Muhammad. Every pulic demonstration of violence, of hatred such as burning Benedict in effigy, every threat made, and every person killed over a picture of Muhammad with a bomb in his turban only proves that Muhammad does not serve God nor do his followers.

The people making Islam look bad are Islamists, not Popes and not cartoonists.

You make your prophet a mockery. No one else has to do it for you.


I wanna' add my AMEN! to Ja... (Below threshold)
barbara:

I wanna' add my AMEN! to Jay's comments. Barbara

Someone should come up with... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Someone should come up with something every day to set the Islamofascist off. They will kill their own and burn their own countries down. Works for me.

The only thing i've seem more stupid in the past 40 years was the blacks burning their own neighborhoods in several protest that changed nothing. The only ones that made out were the theives that started to riots, and what they stole was gone when they needed the next fix. Hey, something similiar to New Orleans last year. Protest as a cover for robbery and murder.

More proof that religion... (Below threshold)

More proof that religion is the opposite of truth, wisdom, and justice

Now we have the Grand Inquisitor (the pot) lecturing Islam (the kettle) about spreading religion through violence (dark deeds) and quoting a Dark Ages text while the USA and Europe are in the midst of the Neo-Crusades. Does anyone else see the irony and absurdity in this situation?

The West has killed far more Muslims than they have killed westerners, yet our press and leaders can only see Muslim desperation in the face of western military and economic dominance, (all in the name of God and country), as the sources of evil in this world.

Guess what guys and girls, war is evil, no matter what the excuse or cause or who is doing the killing. Any idiot who thinks the Creator would judge religion or war as wise or acceptable activities has a very big surprise in store.

Here is Wisdom...

I'll give you an 'Amen' to ... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

I'll give you an 'Amen' to that JT.
The Pope called them on their actions, they didn't like it and the predictable Friday evening riots after prayers erupted. RoPMA

muirgeo, we don't really care about the color of the sky in your world, its fxved up and you're ignoring reality.

"West has killed far more M... (Below threshold)
89:

"West has killed far more Muslims than they have killed westerners" - Uhm *Muslims* have killed more Muslims than any of those.

What worries me most is the Mufti of Saudi Arabia's reaction. Instead of questioning whether the Pope was correctly quoted, asking for an apology or actually answering the Pope's concerns, he's all like "This shows that this inter-faith dialogue stuff is nonsense. As we allways KNEW." .... What? Was he correctly quoted on that?

Any idiot who thin... (Below threshold)
Any idiot who thinks the Creator would judge religion or war as wise or acceptable activities has a very big surprise in store.

C.S. Lewis, a noted Christian apologist and Oxford don, wrote this in his essay, Why I Am Not A Pacifist:

“The doctrine that war is always a greater evil seems to imply a materialist ethic, a belief that death and pain are the greatest evils. But I do not think they are. I think the suppression of a higher religion by a lower, or even a higher secular culture by a lower, a much greater evil. Nor am I greatly moved by the fact that many of the individuals we strike down in war are innocent. […] The question is whether war is the greatest evil in the world, so that any state of affairs which might result from submission is certainly preferable. And I do not see any really cogent arguments for that view.”

misunderstanding jihad (... (Below threshold)

misunderstanding jihad (self control).

Moin ansari,

Maybe we misunderstand because too many Muslims use that as the battle cry to kill people. I guess that means they misunderstand it too. Obviously in their understanding exercising good 'self control' means good aim, well disciplined bomb-making, honing one's decaptiation skills, firing misiles at cities ffull of people with some degree of accuracy and learning to fly planes into buildings full of civilians. Then again, maybe we have a better grasp of what it means than you do.

Hey,I am glad that... (Below threshold)
Cathy:

Hey,

I am glad that Jay can see the truth in what the Pope said and also carefully discerned his apology to see that it was done with Christian charity, while not sacrificing the truth in his message.

By the way, you should look into the Catholic faith. I am an x-atheist, x-agnostic, and fortunately am finally a Catholic revert. There is nothing more precious than finding and following the truth.
Some websites have excellent information about the Catholic faith:

www.catholic.com A radio program, Catholic Answers Live, answers call in questions from anyone curious about the faith. Their programs are archived can be downloaded at www.catholic.com. Many of the apologists are converts to the Catholic faith.

Find out what you've been missing! Learn answers to questions about the faith from those who know it and love it, not the media and others who have decided to hate it and don't understand it.

Other websites:

http://www.catholicity.com/maryfoundation/ (free tapes and CD's about topics in the Catholic faith)

catholicconvert.com (info posted by a convert from Baptist to Catholic)

www.patrickmadrid.com

God bless,
Cathy

To all well-meaning peace-l... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

To all well-meaning peace-loving Muslims everywhere who are willing to stand up and publicly denounce those attempting to force Islam down our throats via terrorism and despotism...WELCOME!!

To all Muslims who do NOT fit into the category above or are themselves attempting to force Islam down our throats via terrorism and despotism...DIE!!

Period.

Nuff said?

You get an "Amen!" from thi... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

You get an "Amen!" from this Catholic, Jay.

Where are the Muslim cleric... (Below threshold)
Guess Who:

Where are the Muslim clerics denouncing beheadings, suicide bombings, insurgency in Iraq, etc? Nowhere to be seen. Yet they come out of the woodwork against the Holy Father.

And none of them are denouncing the attack on the churches.

I love how our military can't even go after Al-Qaeda when they're hiding in a Mosque...and if we do, we're disrespecting their faith. But they can burn Christian churches down. Which, again, are the wrong churches if they want to prove a point. Just shows their stupidity.

I saw some Arab punk interviewed on the local news today and he said that Pope Benedict should educate himself about other religions. Um, excuse me, son, I think the Pope knows more about religion than you will know about anything in your entire life.

I don't even think 95% of these idiots know exactly what the Pope said...they just hear that he is supposed to have torn into Islam and they run with it.

I hope to God that he does not apologize tomorrow. I would have preferred if the Vatican hadn't even said what they have so far. But a "sorry if you're mad, but too bad" kind of statement isn't too bad I guess.

This is getting a little off-topic, but frankly, I wish Vatican II had never happened. It loosened the Church up too much and allowed too much lovey dovey-ness with other religions. I'm not saying we should hate all other religions. I'm saying that we've gone to the other extreme and begun to be hyper-sensitive to everything.

The full text of his talk m... (Below threshold)

The full text of his talk makes clear the central problem of this primitive, anti-humanistic "religion" called Islam. Their "allah" requires blind submission and the suppression of reason in exploring the fundamental questions of life!

I have the full text, and some rather incendiary, if also historically accurate, comments over at http://thomistic.blogspot.com/.

The last thing they need is the equivalent of the Reformation!

1) The Byzantine emperor w... (Below threshold)

1) The Byzantine emperor was much closer to the roots of Islam than we are today. He knew what he was talking about and was disgusted by it.

2) Please don't believe the "Benedict sprinkled Nazi's with holy water" crap. He was involunatarily inducted into the Hitler Youth Army as a boy but he, at great risk to himself, refused to participate. He rebuked the Nazi movement upon pains of his life.

3) Pope Benedict did NOT apologize. He said he regreted that if offended Muslims, rather like Dick Durbin said he regreted that any military personel took it badly that he compared them to Nazis or Pol Pot.

4) Pope Benedict, when he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, since 1981. His job before the Papacy was literally to fight heresy and protect the teachings of the Church. He understands world religions and relativism, humanism and secularism in the Church. He is AMPLY quaified to speak on Islam, and he has been speaking out against Islamic terrorism for a year and a 1/2.

5) What the Emperor was referring to is Muhammed's synthesis of the monotheistic faiths (Judaism and Christianity) and the reducing of them to simplistic categories that codified 7th century Arab culture. There is not much anyone can point to of any value in Islam that was not already revealed through Moses and Jesus. What IS unique to Islam is the introduction of violence into its canon, the reduction of the rights of women, the bizarre sensuality of its afterlife rewards, and many other things that are wildly out of step with the ancient texts it claims to endorse and supersede (the Christian Bible). The Pope MUST repudiate the Qoran which flatly denies the Divinity of Jesus, his vicarious atoning death, his resurrection and the Church. How can the Pope represent Christ by going too far to demonstrate concord with THAT?

GO POPE BENEDICT. I'm proud to be a Catholic.

Of course you like Benedict... (Below threshold)
ST:

Of course you like Benedict, because you're ignorant. I said more than 5 years ago that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger would be the next Pope after John Paul died.

How did I know, other than the fact that I always know? Because Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) who was in charge of doctrine, said that "Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah."

I was sold. I knew then, FIVE YEARS AGO, that Ratzinger would be the next Pope so I was waiting in anticipation for the announcement after John Paul died. When the guy said, "Ratzinger," I was like, darn, the world is screwed.

I knew then. I'm telling you now. Ratzinger has already said that he doesn't have that much time. Who else mentioned in end times prophecy in the Bible also knew that he didn't have a short time?

The guy who I thought, FIVE YEARS AGO, that Ratzinger (now Benedict) would end up being.

The FALSE PROPHET mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

Go Blue!... (Below threshold)
robert:

Go Blue!

ST, please give a link for ... (Below threshold)
goddessoftheclassroom:

ST, please give a link for that.

I can well imagine context makes a huges difference. For example. I believe it is more likely that Cardinal Ratzinger said, "Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah--he was mankind's Messiah." I don't know that's what he said, but I don't accept your quote without documentation--the burden of proof is on you.

Amen!... (Below threshold)
Carole:

Amen!

ya know..if you folks wa... (Below threshold)

ya know..if you folks want to live in a world over 500 years ago..before Martin Luther literally nailed the Cath Church..before so many of the white folks came to America because of Cath crap like this...then I say Amen....
Jesus expressed love to a whore..a tax collecter was one of his disciples..his message was one of tolerance(I can quote scripture)
C'mon..how about some amens for the Spanish Cath. Inquisition..


Posted by: Drew at September 16, 2006 05:33 PM

To set the record straight ... Mary Magdalene was not a whore. That was one of the many deceptions perpetrated by the Catholic Church to disempower women, originated by Pope Gregory, whether maliciously or not is still debated, when he described "Mary" as a sinful woman.

Anyway ... this whole deal with Muslims seething at every offense, whether merely perceive or real, yet at the same time, they offend against the rest of the world in word and in action, often bloody ... it's getting old. Really old. Churches and synagogues are burned, Jews and Christians reviled and mocked ... I think it's time for some Judeo-Christian seething. Car swarm anyone?

One of the hallmarks of a psychopathic personality disorder is the delusional thinking that one can do as one pleases with impunity, that one's opinions are the only ones that count and are right, that others must submit, obey and agree ... pretty much describes Islamic thinking.

Psychopaths are also experts in using language and semantics ... for instance, the Koran forbids the killing of innocents. Great. Wonderful. Religion of Peace. Tolerant and all that. You betcha.

Now define "innocent"

As when Bush uttered the "I" word (Islamofascist) the mere fact that common, everyday Muslims ... the so-called peaceful, non-violent, moderate Muslims ... got all offended speaks volumes about how they really feel about terrorism and how they identify with the Splodeydopes.

Ya almost had me for a seco... (Below threshold)
epador:

Ya almost had me for a second there 7thStar, til the part about the West killing more Muslims than visa versa. And what followed.

I'm not Amening anyone anymore. Especially the Pope. When the Catholic Church backs up its words of reconciliation/apology regarding past transgressions with meaningful action, well, that'll probably be when Hell Freezes Over. Until then I see the Pope as another Pat Robertson with fancier clothes and abode.

Aside: Human beings tend to kill each other over control of land, resources and other people. Words and ideas don't stop this. It's a world of survival of those who recognize, structure their society, prepare and act based on that sad fact of genetics. Its sometimes possible to convince would-be killers to take non-violent actions, but sometimes its not. It is never possible from a position of weakness relative to the killers. Non-violence has not prevailed unless the violent side lost its will to kill. I am not aware of this having happened due to simple fatigue from slaughtering victims.

A significant portion of Islam wants control of the world, and it is prepared to lie, cheat, maim, enslave, threaten and slaughter to this end. Kinda like certain other organized religions have in the past. The religions that now restrain their battle for power to avoid overt slaughter, gained so much ground and wealth from the same approach in the past.

The Pophet of Islam is no w... (Below threshold)

The Pophet of Islam is no way a terrerist. He came here with peace and love , he suffered alot for his purpose. the only war in the world history is 'victory of makkah' won without any bloodshed .later his grandson in karbalah proved that his grandfather was a pacifist. there is alot of differene between apope and an emperor .pope should not have done so.
if Islam is said to havespread through sword it werw some other people not prophet of islam him self and history knows very well they are disputed ones .
read the history of saints and s,ufis of islam, the true followers of the prophet it will became totally clear there is nothing like this
everybody has the right to defend them as crusaders have been doing despite the lovely teachings of the Holy Christ
what they are doing now is not in conformity wih his teachings . am I right?

If what they are doing now ... (Below threshold)

If what they are doing now is not in conformity with his teachings, I'm glad to hear it. I hope it is true. I want it to be true.

But if someone *says* Islam is violent and that violence begins with the prophet, hassan, the way to prove them wrong is not to become violent and threaten violence.

The people giving Islam a bad name are not the Pope or some cartoonists in Denmark. The people defaming the prophet are Muslim. It's the glorification of martyrdom in Palistine. It's protestors in Indonesia who wear "bomb vest" fashion. It's the long history of terrorist violence from Al Qaida culminating in the 9-11 atrocity. It's the people dead because of a lie about a flushed Koran and people dead because of "cartoons" that a Muslim religious leader added horrible pictures to in order to rile up violence and which resulted in more dead people.

Insisting that Islam is peaceful is probably worth while but maybe you should tell the people killing others in the name of God and the prophet or converting journalists with a gun to their heads.

They seem to have missed the memo.

Hassan ... the Koran is the... (Below threshold)

Hassan ... the Koran is the word of Allah as told to Mohammed, therefore it is his interpretation and teaching, correct?

OK, then ... so, what does the Koran say?

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

=========

RoPMA™

let's see, islam brought ru... (Below threshold)
Francel:

let's see, islam brought rules of war, rules of marriage, rules of punishment, rules of inheritence, when the catholic church blinded scientists for say the world was round and orbited around the sun, islam's book said that the earth orbits around the sun and around itsself as with all other planets each in their unique universe in the many universes, it says not fear the dark oceans as the deeper you go, the darker they are and this is due to refraction, mary was a woman chosen by God, not to what the jews have said and made stories up, i will leave that to your imagination, etc. etc. although i was born catholic, yet i cannot deny islam's virtues, the sad ting is that our socalled western civilization was the result of the demise and revolt and the falling of our church, show me what the spanish inquisition and what the catholic missionaries gave to the maya and the aztec indians? the sad thing is that we take cheap shots at muslims becuase we know they cannot insult mary and jesus because both are up there and equal to mohammad, and the punishment of one of their own insulting the lord or the virgin mary is the same as insulting mohammad, etc, etc., lets see, philosophy, medicine, mathematics, astronomy. one has to ponder, why would a man of such intellect and prestige say his. also, it s a bad example, the person mentioned in the dialogue was an orthodox christian emperor whose city was later looted and ransacked by the fourth crusade, the typical crusader carnage and massacres, not a smart example to begin with. the church wants dialogue to create controversy, controversy means unity and jobs for them use of their services, controversy would mean facing the Turkey question and embarassing them and kicking them out of the eu talks, controversy means we are back an we have a cause know, forget the child-molesting, forget everything, lets justify muslim blood, all in all, it was prety stupid, unless, could it be that the pope mentioned as an example of intolerence? think about it, an emperor of another christian faith who suffered from the crusaders going to kill the muslims and whose fate was the same as the muslims, hhhmm, that would really be interesting!

Sounds to me like old "mun-... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Sounds to me like old "mun-go" is a goat herder.

Benedict is nothing ... (Below threshold)


Benedict is nothing but a pathetic face of the crusaders.

There is a pattern of hatred that betrays this man's mind and true feelings. It is clear that his agenda runs parallel with the Islamophobia that has gripped Western countries.

There is no 'philosophical' difference of opinion here, there is no 'taking' his speech out of context. His speech and the juxtaposition of the opinion of a looser (14th century Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire) without any embarrasment for the sheer ignorance it displays.

Is he a coward that uses the speech of a man dead some 700 years to voice his own thinking? Then retreats to the excuse of 'difference of philosophy'? Wussy

Is he not implying, in the faux apology and multifaceted-speak of the Catholic Church, that he STILL believes Muslims force people to convert on pain of violence thus 'philosophically' disagress with them?

Would he just as happily quote the Catholic Church's anti-semitic, specifically anti-Jewish views?

Does he not see, or is he too thick or dumb to comprehend that Islam today is the fasterst growing religion all over the world especially in America and Europe. Who is forcing these poeple to convert? His stupidity astounds me!

Let this be a lesson to those who believe the Catholics are sincere in their quest for dialogue between faiths. Let them see that despite their seemingly polite words, hatred, ignorance and consequent bigotry runs deep in their hearts, sometimes beyond the reach of evidence or thought.

Bunch of evil crusaders with leaders like Bush and Benedict as dumb as each other.

Dear LissaKay and othersI<b... (Below threshold)

Dear LissaKay and othersI
I did not mean this at all .You have misinterpreted that. Those who imposed Islam through sword are themselves controversial figures in Islam. As far as koranic verses are concerned they are about particular time, event and must not be generalized
.O.k. thank you .

You guys at whizbang and me... (Below threshold)
John Miller:

You guys at whizbang and mensnewsdaily are doing a terrific job speaking out against the Jihadists.

Keep up the good work. Here's a link to an excellent essay defending the Pope by a mensnewsdaily columnist:

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/09/16/the-pope-should-not-apologize-to-muslim-leaders/

You have misinterpreted ... (Below threshold)

You have misinterpreted that. Those who imposed Islam through sword are themselves controversial figures in Islam.

We're not understanding Muslims again! Muslims who killed people who refused to accept Islam are controversial! Some day we'll all look back and those who are killing people now might be called controversial too, at least those of us who survive the controversy.

I have been listening and k... (Below threshold)
stan25:

I have been listening and kind of keeping my ear to the ground—so to speak. It seems to me that there are Muslims that are bound and determined to make things rough for everyone. No I am not talking about the average Joe blow Muslim that has to live under the conditions of poverty, I am talking about the ones that have everything and they still want more.

They inflame the young people to do their dirty work (suicide bombings, car bombings and the use of IEDs) by promising them with the myth of 72 virgins when they get to the promised land. Of course, these cowardly clerics and others sit back and gloat, while these young promising youths get is more death and destruction.

These are the ones that are easily offended and the first to lash out at whoever makes any derogatory (supposedly) comments about Islam. It also seems to me that the ones that are doing the most squawking are the ones that are doing these things.

I still think that if Jimmy Caaaaaaater had bombed the American Embassy, in Tehran, when the Iranian radicals invaded it; the radical Muslims would have quit then and there. I am also sure that the families would have understood the rational behind the move.

Then there is the so-called mainstream media. They are the ones that are fanning the flames of the jihad. They report the jihadist bullshit as gospel and most of the sheeple believe what they printed or put out on the tube. These radicals have found a willing participant in their crusade and are exploiting it to the max

White liberals love to reci... (Below threshold)
Nate B.:

White liberals love to recite the litany of rotely learned Catholic atrocities, most of which are the inventions of their own crazed, puritan ancestors, at the slightest pretext, but I have yet to read a post here that in anyway even attempts to refute the Byzantine emperor who the pope quoted. One historically confused person sniffs that it's a dark age quotation, as though that somehow by itself discredits it or as though the 15th century
were in the dark ages! Besides that we are off to the races with sanctimonious condemnations of the crusades and Spain.

2 questions:

A)How again is it that the muslims originally came into the land that the crusaders invaded? Were they going door to door on bicycles, handing out pamphlets?

B)How again is it that the Muslims originally came
into Iberia? Vacationers? Algebra Teachers? Just asking.

The Pope should not apologi... (Below threshold)

The Pope should not apologize for telling it like it is. The violent reaction of the Muslim world has spoken volumes about the ‘religion’, and has proven the Pope’s quote to be true. Killing a nun…? Come on, is that what Allah would really want?

You know how to do a google... (Below threshold)
ST:

You know how to do a google search? It was about 5 years ago. If that page is still up, I'll be surprised. And it wasn't in that context. It was in the context that Jews are still waiting for their messiah to show up because Jesus wasn't their's, even though Jesus himself said that he came to save both the Jew and the Gentile.

What Ratzinger was doing was laying the foundation for the antiChrist to claim to be that messiah, and Ratzinger, as I said back then, would be the next Pope and False Prophet leading people to that antiChrist.

Oh, and your boy Bush is in on it as well.

It's just like the Catholic Church to change what Jesus said, though. That's why Leo IV and Urban II adopted the muslim doctrine of Jihad and commissioned the killing rampages that characterized the Crusades when Jews and Christians were also slaughtered, right along with Muslims; mostly women and children.

There is more than a history of religious bloodshed to go around, and the fact of the matter is it never solves anything.

Hopefully, those who advocate these wars and retaliations are the ones actually fighting them, otherwise they are nothing but loudmouthed cowards.

Found it
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=5649#top

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42039

ST,Uh huh. Did you ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

ST,
Uh huh. Did you read the Jewish Week article?
To quote it:
“That is a clear affirmation of Judaism with no theological strings attached, no Jesus waiting for Jews at the end of the theological day. If this is the book’s message, then it is an important step forward on the part of the Catholic Church.”

Father Pawlikowski stressed that the new document also appears to affirm the importance of the “Jewish Bible,” a new term for the Vatican that he said would be highly significant if it replaces the traditional “Old Testament,” which has a negative implication as being replaced by the “New Testament.”

“The document seems to say that Christians should never deprecate or see the Jewish Bible as inferior, which coming from major Vatican biblical scholars could have profound implications for Catholic religious and educational material,” Father Pawlikowski said.

Wow. What anti-semitism. Affirming the legitimacy of the Jewish faith. Establishing that their covenant with God is still valid. That the Messiah that opened the gates of heaven for all of mankind may not be the Messiah that the jews were waiting for. Esp. since by virtue of their covenant with God, jews were already eligable for heaven...

Son, learn to read, and learn some history and theology before you try to debate it.

YES I TOTALLY AGREED WITH T... (Below threshold)
THE LION:

YES I TOTALLY AGREED WITH THE POPE 100%.
THIS IS WHAT U CALL FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Just urm.....i don't... (Below threshold)
confused&worried teenager.:

Just urm.....
i don't know...
just don't harm/attack/criticize anyone...
the world will be better place then.
islam/christian/jews/buddah/hindu/etc=equal
all religions want their followers to be good.
thats it.the end.

An 'Amen' is coming from th... (Below threshold)
Maria:

An 'Amen' is coming from this Catholic as well. Great post!

please can you help me find... (Below threshold)
A.R.NEWTON:

please can you help me find the 16 benedict pop
E-mail address to request to help to find my sister

So after he had washed thei... (Below threshold)
n:

So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13: Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14: If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15: For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17: If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18: I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. 19: Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. 20: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. John 13:12-20

Algebra Teachers? Just aski... (Below threshold)

Algebra Teachers? Just asking

As a matter of fact Algebra is AL-Gebra created by Muslims. The name Al gibraan comes ot mind. Also Al-Chemia (Chemistry), and Kulliat (Collegiate) etc etc.

Muslim in the 7th century only had 25,000 ablebodied men, so they could NOT have conquered the lands from Arabia to Morocoo without local help. Actually the followers of Arius, known as Arianism were pure monotheists, and they converted to Islam en masse. When Muslims liberated jeursamlem, they invited the Jews back in and the number of churches grew astronomically.

Kindly read the covenant of Muhammad posted on [email protected], or on hundred of sites.

The covenant prohibts Muslims from harming Christians.

Also, early Muslim did not want any conversions an actually turned Christians and others away. See my earlier post.

groups.yahoo.com/group/ajma

Algebra Teachers? Just aski... (Below threshold)

Algebra Teachers? Just asking

As a matter of fact Algebra is AL-Gebra created by Muslims. The name Al gibraan comes ot mind. Also Al-Chemia (Chemistry), and Kulliat (Collegiate) etc etc.

Muslim in the 7th century only had 25,000 ablebodied men, so they could NOT have conquered the lands from Arabia to Morocoo without local help. Actually the followers of Arius, known as Arianism were pure monotheists, and they converted to Islam en masse. When Muslims liberated jeursamlem, they invited the Jews back in and the number of churches grew astronomically.

Kindly read the covenant of Muhammad posted on [email protected], or on hundred of sites.

The covenant prohibts Muslims from harming Christians.

Also, early Muslim did not want any conversions an actually turned Christians and others away. See my earlier post.

groups.yahoo.com/group/ajma

Algebra Teachers? Just aski... (Below threshold)

Algebra Teachers? Just asking

As a matter of fact Algebra is AL-Gebra created by Muslims. The name Al gibraan comes ot mind. Also Al-Chemia (Chemistry), and Kulliat (Collegiate) etc etc.

Muslim in the 7th century only had 25,000 ablebodied men, so they could NOT have conquered the lands from Arabia to Morocoo without local help. Actually the followers of Arius, known as Arianism were pure monotheists, and they converted to Islam en masse. When Muslims liberated jeursamlem, they invited the Jews back in and the number of churches grew astronomically.

Kindly read the covenant of Muhammad posted on [email protected], or on hundred of sites.

The covenant prohibts Muslims from harming Christians.

Also, early Muslim did not want any conversions an actually turned Christians and others away. See my earlier post.

groups.yahoo.com/group/ajma

Algebra Teachers? Just aski... (Below threshold)

Algebra Teachers? Just asking

As a matter of fact Algebra is AL-Gebra created by Muslims. The name Al gibraan comes ot mind. Also Al-Chemia (Chemistry), and Kulliat (Collegiate) etc etc.

Muslim in the 7th century only had 25,000 ablebodied men, so they could NOT have conquered the lands from Arabia to Morocoo without local help. Actually the followers of Arius, known as Arianism were pure monotheists, and they converted to Islam en masse. When Muslims liberated jeursamlem, they invited the Jews back in and the number of churches grew astronomically.

Kindly read the covenant of Muhammad posted on [email protected], or on hundred of sites.

The covenant prohibts Muslims from harming Christians.

Also, early Muslim did not want any conversions an actually turned Christians and others away. See my earlier post.

groups.yahoo.com/group/ajma

If you wish to quote from t... (Below threshold)

If you wish to quote from the quran, please post the correct translation. Also, please quote the entire surah (chapter) so that the enitre verse is self evident.

"Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191"

When you see the surah following this surah, it clealry says, ONLY is SELF DEFENCE, and ONLY if they throw you out of your homes. If they repent, let them go. THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION

So even though Muslims are supposed to defend themselves, very SCRICT restriction of DEFNISIVE war have been clearly laid down.

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends (actulally the Arabic word is AULIAY, which means religious benfactor, read the translation of Mohammad Asad); they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
==============================

I would hate to play the scripture game, and do not want to insult our Christian and Jewish friends, therefore I will not quote from Deutronomy or Numbers to show how allegorical stories from the Torah or the Bible can also be mistaken taken out of context.

God Bless you. Please spread the love of Jesus Christa, the magnanimity of Prohpet Mulhammad, the wisdom of Solomon, and the intellect of Moses.

God Bless America

Saul to kill of the Amaleki... (Below threshold)

Saul to kill of the Amalekites "both man and woman, infant and suckling." (1 Sam.15:2-3)

he Bible's guide to torture

Sometimes you have to beat people for their own good.

The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:30

Some people should be beaten as a punishment for their crimes.

And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten. Deuteronomy 25:2

It's always a good idea to beat fools. Beat them whenever you find them.

A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes. Proverbs 18:6

Judgments are prepared for scorners, and stripes for the back of fools. Proverbs 19:29

A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back. Proverbs 26:3

And slaves may be beaten, as long they survive for at least a day or two after the beating.

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20-21

Beating your children is a sure sign of parental love.

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Proverbs 13:24

And don't stop just because they cry.

Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. Proverbs 19:18

Beating your children will make them less foolish.

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15

The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. Proverbs 29:15

So beat them hard and often. Don't worry about hurting them. You may break a few bones and cause some brain damage, but it isn't going to kill them. And even if it does, they'll be better off. They'll thank you in heaven for beating the hell out of them.

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:13-14

The Bible has many examples of a good and proper use of torture.
For example, David was "a man after God's own heart" (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22) and "did what was right in the sight of the Lord ... save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite" (1 Kings 15:5). Since he tortured the inhabitants of several cities, torture (at least in certain situations) must be okay with God.


And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. 2 Samuel 12:31

And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. 1 Chronicles 20:3

Nehemiah, who is considered a good leader in the Bible, beat people and pulled out their hair.

And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. Nehemiah 13:25

At times, Jesus seemed to look favorably on torture.

In his parables, for example, Jesus often spoke of torturing his enemies.

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors. Matthew 18:34

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 22:12-13

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:50-51

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:46-48

The devils expected Jesus to torture them. (And Jesus didn't deny that he planned to do so.)

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matthew 8:29

Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. Mark 5:7

What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. Luke 8:28

God uses a rod to beat those who disobey his commandments.

If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.Psalm 89:31-2

At the end of the world, God will torture people until they want to die. But he won't let them die so that he can continue to torture them.

And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Revelation 9:5-6

But the ultimate torture is hell. If hell is justified, anything is permissible.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42

If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8-9

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

...hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:22-24

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. Revelation 14:10-11
Tags: torture,




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