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Have Democrats And The Media Been Good For Recruiting?

Recruiting jihadists, that is. I am gonna catch you know what for this one, but somebody had to ask it.

One of the favorite topics of discussion in the media and among Iraq war critics is whether or not the Bush administration has properly prosecuted the war, but the topic I have yet to hear discussed is whether or not the anti-war left and the media in America have properly prosecuted their roles during the war in Iraq.

With Bob Woodward's book, State of Denial, in the news, and the recent declassification of the April 2006 National Intelligence Estimate, the topic of how things are going in Iraq, whether we are more or less safe, and whether or not the action there has led to the recruitment of more terrorists, is a hot topic.

Not being debated, though, is what the status of the war in Iraq might be today if Democrat leaders and the media had conducted themselves differently. If all the successes of American troops in Iraq had been reported as studiously as the setbacks, would terrorists have been able to convince their young, impressionable followers that they were winning? If it were clear to the Iraqi people that politicians in D.C. were committed to finishing the mission in Iraq, would the attitude of the people there be different? If politicians and anti-war activists had not accused our own troops of engaging in torture, and worse, would world opinion, and specifically the opinion of the Iraqi people be different?

No, I am not blaming all the ills of the world on the reporting in Iraq or on Democrats. I am just wondering, aloud, why there has not been more discussion about the consequences of the words and actions of the anti-war left and anti-American reporting.


Comments (68)

Great point! Like with alm... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

Great point! Like with almost everything else in life, a lie told often enough is believable.

What AQ, and the lib media is saying isnt all that different. Libs though would rather lose the war, or hurt Iraq's future, than somehwo suport W.

Saddest part is, if a Dem ever wins WH again, Dems will get same payback.

From the President's speech... (Below threshold)

From the President's speech September 5, 2006:

(A)long with this campaign of terror, the enemy has a propaganda strategy. Osama bin Laden laid out this strategy in a letter to the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar, that coalition forces uncovered in Afghanistan in 2002. In it, bin Laden says that al Qaeda intends to "[launch]," in his words, "a media campaign... to create a wedge between the American people and their government." This media campaign, bin Laden says, will send the American people a number of messages, including "that their government [will] bring them more losses, in finances and casualties." And he goes on to say that "they are being sacrificed... to serve... the big investors, especially the Jews." Bin Laden says that by delivering these messages, al Qaeda "aims at creating pressure from the American people on the American government to stop their campaign against Afghanistan."
DKK

The terrorists have since t... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

The terrorists have since the start of the war, and today still get their greatest motivation from the Press and the democratic politicians. Just hang in there and you'll win. Right now a defeat for America is assured if the democrats take over congress. Talk about America being in danger, we won't be able to walk the streets of any city in safety. I truly believe that they (democrats) will screw up and get hundreds of thousands killed and the American people will march on Washington and lynch those in charge. They will go to the pail one too many times. Mark it down.

I am just wondering, alo... (Below threshold)
Brian:

I am just wondering, aloud, why there has not been more discussion about the consequences of the words and actions of the anti-war left and anti-American reporting.

Because it's a tired old story. It was BS in Vietnam, and it's BS now.

Well Brian I don't know. P... (Below threshold)
cate s.:

Well Brian I don't know. Perhaps good news from Iraq seems like BS to you but it would be nice if we heard good stories once in a while. I know the big news is the Iraqi police that just got pulled in for more training, etc. What you don't hear are the two groups of IP who are now on their own with minimal Army support. I know of this story because my husband is there. However, if you want to diss the military and think that the anti-military, left of center press really does tell the truth about everything going on in Iraq that's fine. BTW I have some Ocean Front property in AZ up for sale.

When treason becomes a word... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

When treason becomes a word that you toss around like a baseball with your family, no one takes treason seriously anymore.

There was a time when people were patriotic and believed in supporting their country, even if they had a few doubts. If they did have doubts, they tried to work within the system to overcome whatever problems there might be.

Now however, no one is even remotely worried about being put to death for treason. People will stand up and say all sorts of heinous things against our great nation. They will even accuse our own government of killing almost 3000 of its citizens. They have no fear of prosecution for treason though.

Unfortunately, words are very powerful. More powerful sometimes than deeds. They spur people from remote corners of the earth into action against the United States.

But we don't hold people accountable for their words. And so jihadists rise up, encouraged by the words of treasonous americans, to defeat us abroad.

It is a sad thing and it is killing our boys and girls in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But it is going to take a lot more sliding down into oblivion before we realize just the sort of harm we are causing ourselves but not taking traitors seriously. I hope my children won't be around to see that day.

The terrorist have an intim... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

The terrorist have an intimate relationship with the media.

Since there is absolutely no tactical accomplishment to any of their attacks, they are completely meaningless unless they make it to the news, particularly the US news. So how the US news media portrays or spins those events is exceptionally critical to the sense of success that the terrorists get from their actions.

>It was BS in Vietnam, and ... (Below threshold)

>It was BS in Vietnam, and it's BS now.

Might want to rethink that, Brian. There's some folks in Vietnam who disagree with you so strongly that they dedicated a room in a museum to it.

In the Vietnamese Communist War Remnants Museum (formerly known as the "War Crimes Museum") in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon), a photograph of John Kerry hangs in a room dedicated to the anti-war activists who helped the Vietnamese Communists win the Vietnam War. The photograph shows Senator Kerry being greeted by the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Vietnam, Comrade Do Muoi.

More pictures of the room are here.

Have they had an effect? A... (Below threshold)

Have they had an effect? Are you kidding? It's like Hanoi Jane had a whole litter of Media Pups.

John Pangia at Exit 4

Well, here goes. This post ... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Well, here goes. This post and the comments are doing to get dicey today so i suppose I'll start. I have 2 points.

1) This is America in case all you "patriots" forgot. One of the differences between us and those we are fighting is that we have the right, not the privilege, to state that we oppose what our government is doing. Remember all those Republican politicians who opposed the bombing of Kosovo? I imagine one or two of you did also.

2) Iraq is a sectarian war - a civil war. The Sunnis hate the Shiites and the Shiites hate the Sunnis. And we are in the middle. But lets assume it it isn't a civil war. In a country where they have electricity for about half the day I suppose you think the "terrorists" are sitting in front of their tvs watching CNN and getting all whipped up? They hate us because we are there not because they read the Washington Post and the New York Times and become encouraged because of the opposition in the US. Yes they have Al Jezera. Do any of you have evidence that Al Jazera uses the opposition party in the US to encourage terrorists?

I'm sorry Lorie but i think your hypothesis is absurd. You throw a piece or red meat to the righties who hate dems and who hate the NYT and the Post and they'll jump all over it and say yes. We'll hear from Scrapiron and his ilk about how we should all be lined up and shot. That's swell. And that's what makes those who hate us happy. It's not dissenters who are dangerous it's folks like Scrapiron et al who are.

Remember all thos... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:
Remember all those Republican politicians who opposed the bombing of Kosovo?

Thanks Hugh for validating Lorie's hypothesis with this reminder of the two sided mouth talkers on the left.

I have yet heard one leftie actually state a negative against the action in Kosovo. Why is that do you suppose?

Why did the left defend "Operation Desert Fox" even though Russia, France and China called it illegal, but then goes bonkers over "Operation Iraqi Freedom"?

Why do lefties always stick their fingers in their ears when they hear Democrat words claiming Saddam was a threat to "OUR" security back in the 90's but now claim "Bush lied"?

Do any of you have evidence that Al Jazera uses the opposition party in the US to encourage terrorists?

Opps, you forgot to finish this sentence.

Should have read: Do any of you have evidence that Al Jazera uses the opposition party in the US to encourage terrorists besides the shared verbatim talking points?

Remember all those Repub... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

Remember all those Republican politicians who opposed the bombing of Kosovo?

No. I don't. Cite?

SS

Hugh , you are stupid an... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

Hugh , you are stupid and full of shit. You are not an American , YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT. Traitor Fraud Kerry , that punk ass Pssy should have been drawn and quartered and disposed of with the city garbage. That's is where you and Lee belong you spineless maggots.

It is YOU who hate. You petulant little liar. It is democrats that are embattled and in the MINORITY lying their ass off because that is all you can do and know how to do. Democrats don't represent AMERICANS they represent Democrats. And the fact of the matter is that though I am technically still registered democratic. I'M NO F*^&EN DEMOCRAT , I AM AN AMERICAN.

YOU ARE NOT A DISSENTER , YOU ARE A LYING PUNK ASS FRAUD. ONLY "TRUE AMERICANS" CAN DISSENT AND YOUR CITIZENSHIP HAS BEEN REVOKED THE MOMENT YOU TRAITORS DECLARED WAR ON MY PRESIDENT , MY COUNTRY AND ME.


" I truly believe that they (democrats) will screw up and get hundreds of thousands killed and the American people will march on Washington and lynch those in charge."


Damn right!

A quick question for Hugh: ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

A quick question for Hugh: Just for a minute visualize the orange jumpsuit the beheaded Berg wore in his final video.

Now visualize what many, if not most, of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib wore.

Do you honestly believe it was a coincidence that the jihadist head choppers chose that orange jumpsuit as a simple matter of luck?

Or is it just possible they, rather than you, are more intelligent and media savvy than yourself?

That aside I find it interesting Hugh and your ilk find it so easy to dismiss the words of the enemy. Osama's words are quoted above and are only a small part of the media storm that al-Qaeda, al-Jazeera and many other jihadist-cut-throats have said.

But you guys find it much easier to play ostrich and pull the Rove-Cheney-Bush-Rice-Israel conspiracy card.

Hugh recited the fol... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Hugh recited the following rhetoric:

1) This is America in case all you "patriots" forgot. One of the differences between us and those we are fighting is that we have the right, not the privilege, to state that we oppose what our government is doing.

Having the right to do something and responsibly excersizing that right are two completely different matters... which part of the basis of this post.. which you obviously missed. No one is questioning whether you have the right... they're questioning whether or not you're excersize of that right is (unintentionally) aiding the enemy.

Acts terrorism aren't about achieving a military victory. They're a Public Relations campaign aimed at undermining the support of the enemy.

The topic Lorie brings up is whether or not the actions of Democrats and the MSM serve to amplify the enemy's Public Relations campaign.

To reach an answer on the question, pretend your on the side of the enemy. Would you view the aforementioned actions as helpful to your cause ?

I believe the answer to that question is "yes".

sanssoucy: In answ... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

sanssoucy:

In answer to your request here's an article written by William Kristol. Pay attention to the last paragaph. If you google you wikll find a democratic paper listing specific republicans with specific quotes on specific dates in specific papers/other media. So you don't have to believe the dems paper but check out the articles and the quotes.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=252

Mike:Well put. But... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Mike:

Well put. But I disagree that the terrorists need anything to inflame them. As I said, the fact that we are 'infidels" in their eyes and occupying a muslim country is enough.

That said, I would choose the right to dissent and the right to exercise it as more imprtant to our values. And because of that I remain committed to my view in this case.

Hugh

Hugh said:<bl... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Hugh said:


I disagree that the terrorists need anything to inflame them. As I said, the fact that we are 'infidels" in their eyes and occupying a muslim country is enough.

For some that's certainly true. The question is how do the actions of the MSM and certain Democrats affect recruitment.

There are, perhaps, some that are less radical and are seeing what's being said about the U.S. by our own media and politicians. Wouldn't this serve to reinforce the idea that we're 'evil' and that we're losing the war ? Wouldn't this, possibly, move some percentage of these less radical people to join the effort against the 'evil' U.S. that might not have otherwise ?

There's also a rather base human tendancy to 'pile on'. That is, some people will stay on the sideline until it appears that one side is 'winning' and then join that side simply because they're 'winning'.

Suppose, just hypothetically, for a moment that....
the politicians were united in their resolve to win this conflict and that reports of the media highlighted that the radicals were losing the war, might this not hurt the enemy's recruitment ? That is, would it not be reasonible to believe that some percentage of the less radical might stay on the sidelines ?

If that's true, isn't it reasonible to believe that the counter also true ? (that the division, lack of resolve, painting the U.S. as 'evil', and the highlighting of U.S. losses move some to action that would have not otherwise). In other words, it would help recuitment.

The second and third paras ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

The second and third paras from your link are interesting also Hugh.

Bet it pained you to read them.

Mike:It's an inter... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Mike:

It's an interesting hypothetical but I don't think it is supported by the facts. What about the April NIE which said that our continued presence was the chief reruitmant tool?

I guess the bottom line is though that there is no objective evidence for or against Lorie's point. If there is I'd like to see it.

Hugh

The terrorists don't need h... (Below threshold)

The terrorists don't need help to inflame them, but they also don't necessarily understand our concept of free speech (one example is the idea that "free speech" doesn't include the freedom to offend) and are quite likely to view dissenting speech differently than we do. Simply, if Bush allows it, it's because he can't stop it. Not won't, can't.

Dissent and free speech is very important to us, yet we voluntarily suppress our "free speech" when it comes to Mohammad cartoons while freely undermining the efforts to fight terrorism for a little bit of domestic political gain.

When Osama issues a tape that mimics Moore's 9-11 "documentary" and the president of Iran mimics Dem talking points and every time one of these guys opens their mouths you can just about hear St. Sheehan speak... it *ought* to make people wonder if maybe, just maybe, they're encouraging the enemy.

If it really were about free speech rather than opposing Bush at all costs the newspapers in this country would have taken a stand by printing the Mohammad cartoons instead of folding. If it were about free speech as our most important value... but it's obviously not.

It's about political gain at the cost of safety to our troops, undermining the war effort and encouraging the enemy to hang in there just a little bit longer.

Democrats say they could do a better job. I'd like to see evidence that they even want to win. I'd like to see a commitment to winning instead of this straddling the divide between pleasing folks like Code Pink and trying to claim they take our security seriously and would do better if only they were allowed.

They ARE allowed. There's any number of things that Democrats could do without ever saying Bush was right about anything. While castigating Bush for using too few troops they could take public leadership in encouraging young people to enlist while introducing bills to increase the size of the military. 'Course, that'd piss off Code Pink and all the anti-recruiting types. They could talk *now* about what should be done to support stability in Iraq and Afghanistan. They could be publically pro-victory without *ever* agreeing with president Bush. But that'd P.O. all the doom sayers, the people who believe in failure above all else.

They'd lose their base.

So they just talk because talk is cheap, dissent is admirable and requires nothing, and because *they* know what their words are worth and that they're free to say any old thing at all, they don't think anyone else takes more account to them than they take to themselves.

It's irresponsible, self-serving, and utterly dispicable.

LoriE,This blog take... (Below threshold)
mark blahut:

LoriE,
This blog takes the cake - all you have to do is LOOK at the stupid admin you defend .
Lets talk about how Condi's lies have killed more soldiers then any truthful comment a democrate may have made . You make me sick , I would love to see you chickenhawk ass in Iraq . I will bet you dad was a draft dodger .
You make me sick 1

I am just wondering, alo... (Below threshold)
MyPetGloat:

I am just wondering, aloud, why there has not been more discussion about the consequences of the words and actions of the anti-war left and anti-American reporting

Because there isn't one shred of evidence that proves domestic oppostion to policy is equatable to providing aid to our adversaries -real or perceived.

Who on earth asks questions like that anyway?

Hmmm let's see here..

ah -

"How are you going to work with people who seem to have divorced themselves from reality?"

That's why you are not a journalist, Lorrie.

Wow! with intellectual hea... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Wow! with intellectual heavyweights like mark blahut weighing I feel a little intimidated...but here goes anyway.

In VietNam there was the SUSPICION that the WorldWide Press was offering aid & comfort to the NVA and Viet Cong...a suspicion totally CONFIRMED by General Giap, and others, after the war. Giap's account of the Tet Offensive is particularly telling...he considered suing for PEACE after the massive DEFEAT of the Viet Cong and associated NVA forces during Tet. It was the Pres's depiction of this as a defeat for AMERICA that made him prolong the war.

In Iraq, and worldwide, the IslamoFascists routinely regurgitate Democrat talking points, and NY Times editorials. Routinely.

"Because there isn't one sh... (Below threshold)

"Because there isn't one shred of evidence that proves domestic oppostion to policy is equatable to providing aid to our adversaries -real or perceived."

It's pretty clear that Al Qaida, along with each and every one of the other non-government militant groups in the region as well as governments in the region *believe* in the efficacy of media manipulation and propaganda to influence our will to fight. So, what you're saying is that they are wrong? That parroting
"domestic opposition" in their statements actually means they *aren't* paying attention to our domestic politics?

Many Democrats (and a few Republicans, to be fair) and the media have been behaving as though their words and actions are entirely consequence free. This isn't even *possible* by what we know, and it's not a *partisan* knowledge, about waging any kind of war.

That we value freedom of speech and view dissent as important does not *negate* the fact that war is far more about motivations, about convincing the other side that they will lose, about presenting a untited national will to win. Proof? This is like, Waging War 101. It's the basics, the most simple concepts of warfare.

And we get "where's the proof it matters?"

I think that that, right there, is proof of who can be trusted with the military even in peacetime. It's almost as basic as which end of an M-16 the bullets come out of.

Please explain why repeated statements that we're the ones sure to fail *doesn't* give our opponents a morale boost. Since you're basically saying that everyone who ever studied war all the way back to Sun Tzu are idiots, I think the burdon of at least presenting a logical argument falls on you.

There is a particular probl... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

There is a particular problem that is complicating the situation...and Synova touched on it in his post.

The Democratic party is fractured. There have been a growing number of people occupying the far left, joining or supporting groups like Answer and Code Pink. We saw what happened when Joe Leiberman disagreed on a single issue, he was ostricized, demonized and tossed from the party.

Their whole platfrom seems to have become to oppose Bush, and anything he advocates. The Iraq war being one of them.

Justrand:... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Justrand:

Wow! with intellectual heavyweights like mark blahut weighing I feel a little intimidated...but here goes anyway.

Ha!

And considering just how ma... (Below threshold)

And considering just how many idiots in the US are convinced that we're doomed to lose a conflict that we can not possibly lose militarily, shows that they are intent on losing it non-militarily or have been persuaded that losing non-militarily is an inevitability.

And then they claim that what people say and believe has no impact on anything that matters.

Jeez Louise... and the military is supposed to hate Rumsfeld.

I'm all for free speech, bu... (Below threshold)
P. Buynan:

I'm all for free speech, but I'm against freedom to lie, distort, spin, misrepresent, and exaggerate which is about 99% of what comes out of the mouths and keyboards of most lefties.

Abu Grabe blown WAY, WAY, WAY out of proportion aids and abets the terrorists.

Murtha claming the American troops are overtaxed aids and abets the terrorists.

Durban saying we are as bad as the Natzis aids and abets the terrorists.

Remember when concrete undisputable proof of all the 100's of WMD's that we found so far was released last summer and all the lefties rushed to the blogs to say stupid things like: "we didn't go to war over THOSE WMD's, we went war over some other WMD's that Bushitler lied about"-- that aids and abets the terrorists.


The disingenuous democrat mantra that WMD's was the ONLY reason for going to war aids and abets the terrorists.

Would one of you lefties like to explain why Osama released a tape a few days before the 2004 election on which he endorsed John Kerry? (Paraphrasing: "If you live in a red state we will attack you, if you live in a blue state you're safe:)

A victory for the democrats this November will be a victory for terrorists and they know it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again to all you lefties: Osama, Kim Jung Il, Ahmedinajad thank you for your support.

Let's be vry clear about wh... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

Let's be vry clear about what you're saying here: Your complaint is that you live in a country in which newspapers and tv news organs are allowed to criticize the administration over an ongoing war -- something you all did during the Kosovo conflict, without apology -- and this makes you unhappy.

You should live in North Korea; you have exactly their mindset.

HughYou are right.... (Below threshold)
drjohn:

Hugh

You are right.

I love you. Keep up the good work.

best regards

Osama

I have bee writing about th... (Below threshold)
drjohn:

I have bee writing about this for some time. It's one thing to disagree, but Democrats go beyond the pale. Pelosi call Bush mentally unstable and incompetent, Reid call Bush a "loser," they call Bush a "liar." These personal slurs come at a price.

All this flashes on Al Qaida screens before any of us read it.

These are words of encouragement for Al Qaida and Al Sadr. They are the vindication of these groups and people who similarly exhort their followers.

The Democratic Party is a de facto ally of Al Qaida and the Iraqi insurgency.

Democrats want control far more than they want this country to succeed.

re:astifagaLet's b... (Below threshold)
Mike:

re:astifaga

Let's be very clear about what's being said here: You live in a country where citizens are allowed to criticize the administration while we're at war no matter how baseless it may be and how much aid and comfort it gives the enemy. We're also free to question whether or not it's a responsible exercise of that freedom to give aid and comfort to the enemy.

Perhaps, you'd prefer that future generations are forced to deal with this conflict after the butcher's bill grows larger so that you can enjoy a little temporary peace.

Astig:"Let's be vry ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Astig:
"Let's be vry clear about what you're saying here: Your complaint is that you live in a country in which newspapers and tv news organs are allowed to criticize the administration over an ongoing war..."

Well, if we're going to be very clear, then that statement is absolutely wrong.

We're happy to live in a country in which newspapers and tv news organs are allowed to criticize the admin over an ongoing war.

But we're unhappy that newspapers and tv news organs choose to criticize the war effort while they won't even admit that their actions may be aiding the enemy.

Exactly. When it w... (Below threshold)

Exactly.

When it was the Mohammad cartoons everyone was all about how the freedom to print them didn't equate to a mandate to print them and that it was *responsible* not to print them.

So what happened?

Talking about what is *responsible* is now contrary to freedom?

Let's see if we can ... (Below threshold)
Hugh:


Let's see if we can cut to the chase here. More than 60% of the country disapprove of the way Bush is handling the war. More than 60% disapprove of the war altogether. More than 55% think we are less safe because of the war.

So they are just supposed to shut up about it and let the fringe right wing of this country tell us what's ok and what is not? I understand now why you don't like us on this site.

Hugh...there is a ... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Hugh...

there is a HUGE difference between the Press REPORTING on Public Opinion and the Press MAKING Public Opinion.

When the Press keeps up a steady drumbeat of "DOOM...DOOM...DOOM" it certainly DOES have an impact on public opinion.

When the NY Times finds a way to keep the AbuGharib "story" on Page ONE for nearly two months with NO NEW NEWS happening after the first couple days...well, that's NOT "responsible journalism"...that's AGENDA Journalism. Clearly.

The lefties lie to throw ou... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

The lefties lie to throw out their biased poll numbers. The only poll that matters is the one taken on the first Tuesday of November.

Not to mention the fact that most of what the left has forced on this country through their fascist judicial system is not supported by the majority of Americans, but the left doesn't care about that.

Soooo, what you are saying ... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Soooo, what you are saying Justrand is that overwhelming majority cited above are ignorant idiots swayed by the MSM? You righties are the only people in the country capable of discening the truth?
Yike, I see a cult growing.

opps, meant to say "like" n... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

opps, meant to say "like" not "lie" in the first sentence above.

Of course "The lefties lie" is a true statement too...

Hugh,I wouldn't sa... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Hugh,

I wouldn't say they are "ignorant idiots" but anyone who gets their news from the NYT, CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, or CNN is truly ignorant as they only know maybe 20% of the whole story and many of the things they think are "facts" are simply opinions and are clearly untrue.

Most of what you lefties post on this site is ample proof of that.

Now people who think that s... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Now people who think that socialist/communist governments do more good than harm are truly ignorant idiots.

Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, & Hugh do fall into this category.

So that 60% of the country ... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

So that 60% of the country only gets its news from left wing media? You have evidence of that I suppose. You've done some research on your assertion?

'It's almost as basic as wh... (Below threshold)
LJD:

'It's almost as basic as which end of an M-16 the bullets come out of.'

Not very basic for a lot of Democrats.

Unfortunately for us though, not many of them are experimenting with it.

I didn't do the research bu... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

I didn't do the research but I remember reading from someone who did, that somewhere around 82-85% of the Amerian media is left biased.

I would guess that a lot more the 60% of Americans get their news from left biased media as most of the media is left biased, but not everyone believes everything they're told. Some people actually think.

Hugh, I must have missed th... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Hugh, I must have missed that call from the pollster asking my opinion. For you to say 60% of the country is against the way Bush is handling the war indicates someone asked 100% of the people their opinion. I would like to see the question asked, who was asked and where they were asked as in what part of the country. Big city, east or west coast and that would not indicate a true picture. Denial is indemic in the Democratic party. Clinton denied having sex with that woman, and you people deny the effect you have one the enemy. Ask those who lived in formerly South Viet Nam how they feel about the American Press. Talk about fighting wrong. You cannot fight a war to keep the enemy at bay. You must fight a war that defeats and destroys the ememy, so that they cannot repeat their aggression. Why you idiots seem to think you can talk you way to peace is not backed up with fact.

That should be on the enemy... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

That should be on the enemy on one the enemy. My bad.

Zelsdorf:Don't fee... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Zelsdorf:

Don't feel bad, you would have just been one of the minority had you been called. Your voice would have been heard. We libs woouldn't stifle your dissent.

"We [secular-socialists] wo... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"We [secular-socialists] woouldn't stifle your dissent."

If the numbers did not support your worldview you just wouldn't bother to report them.

And as far a the left's record with stifling those with a non-secular-socialist opinion, I think you might have ask conservatives like Ann Coulter about their experiences trying to speak at college campuses.

Bunyan, Zelsdorf and the re... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Bunyan, Zelsdorf and the rest of the fringe loonies:

I give up. You're world view is correct. Move on now - preferably back to your caves where you can continue honing your knives in preparation for the vast heathen horde of muslims approaching.

Sharpen your knives and please leave me alone as I peruse my secular, liberal, commie, aclu loving, terror loving, abortion loving, traitorous newspaper(s) at Starbucks as I sip my late in my birkenstocks with my uncut hair getting a bj from a 22yo as i plot the overthrow of bush's government before i fill up my car with citgo on the way to picket the minutemen as i listen to npr...whew i'm getting tired. I should just wear plain sandals shouldn't I?

And as far a the ... (Below threshold)
Mike:
And as far a the left's record with stifling those with a non-secular-socialist opinion, I think you might have ask conservatives like Ann Coulter about their experiences trying to speak at college campuses.

Or more recently (this week), Jim Gilchrist, the founder of the Minutemen, at Columbia University.

http://www.nysun.com/article/41067

Hugh, your posts prove you ... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Hugh, your posts prove you are not all there. Still campaigning against someone that can't run again. Making charges against the president that if 10% true would have you sleeping with the fish before morning. The only people you effect are the slow learners and mental retards like yourself. The majority laugh at your post. Evidently you aren't too involved in history, Hitler did away with anyone that opposed him and so do all of the government types that you support. Millions have just 'disappeared' in the past few years in socialist/communist countries. There are still millions of unlocated people in mass graves, put there by your hero Saddam. Usama didn't hide it, he just shot or removed the head (in public as a scare tactic) of anyone that opposed him and his 'Islamic' regime. There was a run of 'unknown' cause deaths in the U.S. not too far in the past. Well covered up but did happen. The people are still dead.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/clintonfriends.htm

The answer to the original ... (Below threshold)
schulz:

The answer to the original question posed by Lorie is irrelevant because Republicans and Democrats are fighting two different enemies.

Democrats talk about immediate pull out of troops from Iraq as being a major setback for Republicans and a blow to the Bush administration and a defeat of the Bush Doctrine. They never talk about how pull out would be a catastrophic devastation for the Iraqi people as it was for millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians in 1975 Southeast Asia (since Iraq a quagmire like Vietnam, right?).

This is not a concern for Democrats because whereas the Republican plan for Iraq is to defeat insurgents, the Democrats' plan for Iraq is to defeat Republicans. And that's all that matters to them, all others be damned.

Hugh, guess I missed the ca... (Below threshold)
cate s.:

Hugh, guess I missed the call too. Anyways, my father was in during the Korea conflict, my half-brother was killed in Viet Nam, I was in Desert Storm and injured, my husband was too and now he's on his third tour in Iraq. What have you done for your country besides put down those who you don't know by calling Republicans "chickenhawks"?

The fact is, Hugh, that pub... (Below threshold)

The fact is, Hugh, that public opinion is formed by the information that people have. When people who ought to have access to information frame their every word so as to not offend Code Pink it INFLUENCES public opinion. When someone like Murtha stands up in public and declares our Marines guilty, absolutely guilty, of cold blooded murder and how it's to be expected for good men to respond to the extreme and hopeless situation by snapping... people believe him! DUH! They believe that our soldiers routinely "snap" and they believe that our troops are on the razor edge of collapse. Murtha, like the other big mouths, are speaking from "authority" and people believe them.

At home.

And overseas.

Raising a straw-man of "not supposed to say anything" bad or disagree with the president is a straw-man. There's a great deal of dissenting that can be done without shouting to friend and foe alike that we are DOOMED DOOMED DOOMED.

Readers of blogs like Wizbang do not spend all their time exchanging warm Fuzzies over Bush. Nor is Instapundit a bastion of group hugs. Nor do milblogs, who's proprietors at least understand what is *realistic* to expect from war provide a criticism free environment.

So quit with the idiotic "no criticism" straw-man. There's a huge difference between dissent and the political play that is being done. There's a big difference between dissent and portraying everything as a disaster and inevitable humiliating loss.

If Democrats don't think we have enough troops in Iraq, Hugh, why are not DEMOCRATS encoraging people to enlist so we can send more? Why aren't they sponsoring bills to force Republicans to vote for or against increasing the overall size of our military? Why? Because they can't "dissent" and still push for victory without their own loony fringe passing a cat.

And every time I see the su... (Below threshold)

And every time I see the subject title of this post I think about how effective Democrats could be for recruiting if they wanted to be. They could and they don't.

Cate SUS Army 1970... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Cate S

US Army 1970-1976.Infantry Lieutenant, then JAG Corps - Captain. That ok with you?

Cate S I also mean... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Cate S

I also meant to ask you to point out when and where i have referred to "republicans" as "chickenhawks". Although I would defend anyone's right to say it or anything else they choose to say about anyone anytime the want to.

Synova:Once again ... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Synova:

Once again you posit that 60% of the american population is incapable of discernment. That the only ones are folks like you who, of course, look to the right wing media for your answers.

What an insult to that 60%. But then that shows the arrogance and blindness of folks like you who's real mantra is our way or the highway. What kind of America do you come from anyway. You think that that 60% who clearly oppose this war are doing it for political reasons? Do you folks actually believe that? Cause if you do you are beyond help.

Thanks for the "Clinton's f... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Thanks for the "Clinton's friends" link Scrappy. I will print the page and hang it next to my Sooper-Double-"D"-Dooper top secret photo of those black helicopters that are circling my house - lol

That's right.We had ... (Below threshold)
Robert:

That's right.
We had no plan to win the war. We had no plan to secure Iraq.
We had no plan to keep Americans safe.

But to point this out is the reason we are losing.

Maroons!

To paraphrase Marley: "I shot the messenger, but I did not shoot the morons who got us in this mess."

I support a universal milit... (Below threshold)
nogo postal:

I support a universal military draft...
First of all it is clear that we lack patriots who want to enlist...If we had those(forget recruitment goals met)perhaps we could allow returning from Iraq more time before their return..
Second...if posters here, their children, their neighbors were drafted and were forced to fight for our nations security...maybe they would be more affected/effected by http://icasualties.org

C'mon...there are slackers in our nation..not stepping up so we can fight them over there and not over here...if they(you)won't volunteer, than...you know...

of course..it is easy for m... (Below threshold)
nogo postal:

of course..it is easy for me to call for a draft..it is not my age..56..but the fact that my disability discharge in June 1972..would mean WWIII before I could be drafted....oh by the way for those who seek..my purple band-aid USN number is B65-03-96
Look it up...... (of course USN vets from that era know our numbers were not our SSN's)

C'mon...there are slacke... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

C'mon...there are slackers in our nation...

Why yes, yes there are. And look! here they come now! Children and all...

I give up, Hugh. Bush is r... (Below threshold)

I give up, Hugh. Bush is right. Everyone who doesn't think so is stupid. The mere whif of disagreement is treason. Anyone who doesn't agree is 100% brain addled.

How else do you explain the number of people who think "blood for oil" is a sane statement. No, they aren't smart people being fed a line of political bull, they're retarded.

Obviously.

All better now? I'll quit trying to discuss anything with nuance or understanding of other people's point of view or ever ever again suggest that people believe what they do because of what they see on television and hear from people like Kerry, Gore or Murtha. Why should I bother?

And next time I percieve even a hint of sanity in anything you write I'll try to remember that no matter how I respond all you'll hear is what I wrote above. So I'll just save the effort.

I truly appreciate that I s... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

I truly appreciate that I shall not hear from you again Synova. Promise?

"There was a run of 'unknow... (Below threshold)

"There was a run of 'unknown' cause deaths in the U.S. not too far in the past. Well covered up but did happen. The people are still dead..."

Cue in Twilight Zone music here.

Wow! Hey Hugh, why do you even waste your time?
You must be a pre school teacher or something. You have the patience of Job.

See folks, I do know my bible ;)

Schulz opined: "Democrat... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Schulz opined: "Democrats talk about immediate pull out of troops from Iraq as being a major setback for Republicans and a blow to the Bush administration and a defeat of the Bush Doctrine. They never talk about how pull out would be a catastrophic devastation for the Iraqi people as it was for millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians in 1975 Southeast Asia (since Iraq a quagmire like Vietnam, right?)."

Apparently you drank the Don Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice kool-aid, Schulz. They are lying and want you to believe that line of total BS.

Most Iraqis Want U.S. Troops Out Within a Year
Say U.S. Presence Provoking More Conflict Than it is Preventing

Approval of Attacks on U.S.-led Forces Rises to 6 in 10

A new WPO poll of the Iraqi public finds that seven in ten Iraqis want U.S.-led forces to commit to withdraw within a year. An overwhelming majority believes that the U.S. military presence in Iraq is provoking more conflict than it is preventing and there is growing confidence in the Iraqi army. If the United States made a commitment to withdraw, a majority believes that this would strengthen the Iraqi government. Support for attacks on U.S.-led forces has grown to a majority position--now six in ten. Support appears to be related to a widespread perception, held by all ethnic groups, that the U.S. government plans to have permanent military bases in Iraq.

Was that whole "democracy" thing just another Republican lie? THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ are telling the truth about the US presence in Iraq, and the REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS ARE LYING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE -- all because they want your vote, Schulz - they are lying to you to get your vote.

Read the article I linked, and decide for yourself.




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