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Amazing Grace

I'm in awe of the faith and forgiveness of the Amish who suffered such terrible losses at the hands of Charles Roberts. Today, he was buried and half of those attending his funeral were Amish.

Dozens of Amish neighbors came out Saturday to mourn the quiet milkman who killed five of their young girls and wounded five more in a brief, unfathomable rampage.


Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, was buried in his wife's family plot behind a small Methodist church, a few miles from the one-room schoolhouse he stormed Monday.

His wife, Marie, and their three small children looked on as Roberts was buried beside the pink, heart-shaped grave of the infant daughter whose death nine years ago apparently haunted him, said Bruce Porter, a fire department chaplain from Colorado who attended the service.

About half of perhaps 75 mourners on hand were Amish.

"It's the love, the forgiveness, the heartfelt forgiveness they have toward the family. I broke down and cried seeing it displayed," said Porter, who had come to Pennsylvania to offer what help he could. He said Marie Roberts was also touched.

"She was absolutely deeply moved, by just the love shown," Porter said.


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» Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator linked with Amish mourn gunman in school rampage

» Stander's Point linked with An Old Fart Reminds Me of an Old Friend

» Dean's World linked with The Faith Of The Amish

» The Queen of All Evil linked with The Unwarranted Forgiveness Towards Charles Roberts

» Conservative Musings linked with True Forgiveness

Comments (38)

Amish are pacifists that I ... (Below threshold)

Amish are pacifists that I can respect because they hold their beliefs faithfully and not just when it's easy to do so.

Yeah, maybe the fake christ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Yeah, maybe the fake christians who support this administrations war, bigotry, wealth accumulation and disregard for the poor could learn something from them.

http://www.harpers.org/art/cartoons/mrfish/JesusChildren_350x570.jpg

<a href="http://peacetakesc... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:
The real religion of peace.... (Below threshold)
Socratease:

The real religion of peace.

An even better examp... (Below threshold)
jack rudd:


An even better example was the 13 year old Amish girl, now dead, who said, "Shoot me first". Her 12 year old sister said, "And me second." They were trying to protect the other girls, particularly the younger ones. The killer then asked them to pray for him before he shot them. The younger girl is recuperating.

hmm, apparently some commen... (Below threshold)
JWR:

hmm, apparently some commenters here are so perfect that they have nothing to learn themselves from this display of forgiveness. If not humility in the face of this act of selflessness, then when?

Hatred takes its greatest ultimate goal on the haters themselves. The Amish as a group understand that. Would we all.

Muirgeo,To despise... (Below threshold)
Luke:

Muirgeo,

To despise someone is something I have tried to avoid all my life. I could always find some good in anyone.

With your hijacking and post on this thread about the love of the Amish people, you have made me rethink my position.

You are to be despised.

To those who despise one an... (Below threshold)
epador:

To those who despise one another.

I think if love isn't possible, then pity would work a little better from a Christian viewpoint.

muirgeo ...While y... (Below threshold)
yo:

muirgeo ...

While you may think you've provided some sort of service to the readers, here - all you've really done was feed into the stereotype of the morally backrupt and hypocritical leftist agenda.

You deserve neither pity nor scorn.

You deserve whatever Fate will hand off to you. And hand off she will .. because being that big of an asshole doesn't come without a cost.

In short, you vile, contemptuous, moronic meat sack: gent bent.

Muriego - couldn't you rest... (Below threshold)

Muriego - couldn't you restrain yourself from posting snark and hatred for just one post?

Maybe you could learn something from the Amish yourself.

Who is muirgeo? Did he say... (Below threshold)

Who is muirgeo? Did he say something? I must have missed it. Oh well...

I must say that the Amish have demonstrated their faith better than I would. Another reason to admire them. Too bad there are not more like them.

Looks like I pissed off a f... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Looks like I pissed off a few fake christians....cool!!! I hold no candle to the tolerance and forgiveness of the Amish. But as an atheist raised a Catholic I'm quite certain I'm more a follower of the teachings of Christ then your run of the mill pro war pro wealth fake christian.

I wish more knew about the ... (Below threshold)
invernessie:

I wish more knew about the courage of the Amish girls. I know that they demonstrated a much stronger faith than I could have. Their courage, faith, forgiveness, and acceptance deserve greater attention by all, regardless of their religious beliefs.

Forget the "pacifist" comme... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Forget the "pacifist" comments. Forget supposed ex-Catholic comments who proclaim to know God, yet reject God, because they know better. Agnositics, forget them, too.

No, this was the penultimate act of forgiveness.

It is perhaps the most humbling acts of forgiveness we will see in our lifetimes.

I would defy anyone, including myself, to forgive with such utter and complete sincereity.

We should all have so much faith...

October 8, 2006 | David ... (Below threshold)
Luke:

October 8, 2006 | David Cox

AN AMISH girl who was expected to die after being badly wounded in last week's horrific schoolhouse shooting in the US has shown signs of making an amazing recovery. Six-year-old Rosanna King was taken off a life-support machine and sent home from hospital to die at home with her family on Wednesday.

Doctors had concluded they could do nothing more for the young girl... but she defied all the worst expectations and continued to breathe on her own. She has now been taken back to hospital after showing enough strength to squeeze a family member's hand.

I would defy anyone, includ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

I would defy anyone, including myself, to forgive with such utter and complete sincereity.

We should all have so much faith...

Posted by: Peter F.


Yet when one dares to suggest that the Middle East Muslims may have reasons for resorting to terrorism that involve some fault of our own and that maybe we would actually do better to talk and give food over bombs then that person is called a terrorist sympathizer, an unrealistic moon bat and a "cut and runner".

As you said, "I would defy anyone, including myself, to forgive with such utter and complete sincereity.
We should all have so much faith..."

Me too....but I'm betting none here will. Rather they'll just ew and awe over the Amish and go back to calling me a coward and for a new push for bombs over bread.

Screw you...ya a-holes..TOTAL HYPOCRITES!!!! or as i said FAKE cHRISTIANS!!

"may have reasons for resor... (Below threshold)
engineer:

"may have reasons for resorting to terrorism"

Nobody has any reason to resort to terrorism.

It is perhaps the most h... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

It is perhaps the most humbling acts of forgiveness we will see in our lifetimes.

Agreed - great comment Peter.

correction ^ - great com... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

correction ^ - great comments by Peter F. on all of the articles regarding this.

"do better to talk and give... (Below threshold)
yo:

"do better to talk and give food"

... with and to whom? You make it sound as if we invited the likes of Nasrallah, OBL, Lil' Kim to Burger King and had a chat we'd be able to solve all the world's ills.

Man, you're either off your nut or you completely fail to understand the breadth of the situation. Or both.

Besides, who ever said I was christian? I, too, am an atheist whose parents tried to raise a catholic. Get over yourself.

muirego doesn't understand ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

muirego doesn't understand his hypocrisy. He complained about big evil corporations, yet he is not willing to move to countries like NOrth Korea, Iran, or Cuba. He is hiding behind the Amish for his utter corrupt ideology. The Amish are pacifists and they are willing to give their lives to protect others from violent attackers. Liberasl like muiergo don't know the difference. They used pacifism as a means to make excuse for the communist tyrants and now the terrorists. When are people like muerigo willing to go form a human chains to protect the innocent Iraqui or Is women/children from the violent attacks of the terrorists? No they won't. That 's why they are despicable as Luke said.

Muirgeo,Mideast Musl... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Muirgeo,
Mideast Muslims are not resorting to terror. It is a small group of radical fundamentalists. The Amish are a small sect of Christianity that adhere quite humbly to the teachings of Jesus - to turn the other cheek and the like. To mention them together as you do is quite twisted. You are one of the few people I see post here who has an uncanny knack of weakening his own views simply writing about them.

muirgeo - Your comments in ... (Below threshold)
Lee:

muirgeo - Your comments in this thread are totally inappropriate and off-base.

As a liberal, I'm embarrassed by your actions.

Unity is a beautiful thing ... (Below threshold)
Peter S:

Unity is a beautiful thing indeed and an amazing grace for all which is the hallmark offered by Jesus Christ. It's because the families of both the assailant and victims seek to find common ground that makes it admirable and a worthy goal. In particular is the Amish community's choice of detachment from a secular world that makes this all the more poignant.

The Amish are pacifists ... (Below threshold)

The Amish are pacifists and they are willing to give their lives to protect others from violent attackers.

They are willing to give up their lives but I don't see how that protects anyone from violent attackers. Every day I am grateful the Amish are not in charge of our national defense. It's a good thing Gandi was fighting the British and not the Nazis or he would have learned an important lesson about pacifism.

If I thought there was anything wrong with hating a guy who murders little children then I might find this grotesque display of forgiveness inspiring.

The main reason for forgiving is to allow the victim to get on with his or her life without dwelling on the past. This forgiveness is best given after suitable punishment has been instituted lest we forget to administer it.

Forgiving needs to be reserved for those who repent their actions otherwise we debase the act. If someone does you evil, gets caught and then does not repent you have good reason not to forgive them. The fact that you have not forgiven them will act as a reminder that the person has shown a willingness to repeat the act in the future.

This was indeed a tremendou... (Below threshold)

This was indeed a tremendous act of forgiveness.

Liberal pacifism I cannot respect, Amish pacifism on the other hand proves itself quite noble.

"may have reasons for resor... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

"may have reasons for resorting to terrorism"

Nobody has any reason to resort to terrorism.

Posted by: engineer

True but did we have a right to do this???;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

Operation Ajax (1953) (officially TP-AJAX) was a covert operation by the United Kingdom and the United States to remove the nationalist[1] cabinet of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh from power, to support the Pahlavi dynasty and consolidate the power of Mohammed Reza Pahlavi.

"do better to talk and give... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

"do better to talk and give food"

... with and to whom? You make it sound as if we invited the likes of Nasrallah, OBL, Lil' Kim to Burger King and had a chat we'd be able to solve all the world's ills.

Man, you're either off your nut or you completely fail to understand the breadth of the situation. Or both.

Posted by: y

Yes I'm off my nut just like the Amish must be.

Learn about the Camp David Accords if you haven't already. Talk is truly cheap...war is very costly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords_%281978%29

Also, the Camp David Accords prompted the disintegration of a united Arab front in opposition to Israel. ...........

Lastly, the biggest consequence of all may be in the psychology of the participants of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The success of Begin, Sadat, and Carter at Camp David demonstrated to other Arab states and entities that negotiations with Israel were possible -- that progress results only from sustained efforts at communication and cooperation.

Muirgeo,Mideast Musl... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Muirgeo,
Mideast Muslims are not resorting to terror. It is a small group of radical fundamentalists. The Amish are a small sect of Christianity that adhere quite humbly to the teachings of Jesus - to turn the other cheek and the like. To mention them together as you do is quite twisted. You are one of the few people I see post here who has an uncanny knack of weakening his own views simply writing about them.

Posted by: DaveD

So you are saying the Amish would support the war in Iraq???

And you are wrong about who the terrorist are. Many are Iraqi citizens with no prior link to terrorism or Al Quada. The overwhelming majority of Iraqi citizens want us to leave and support attacks against our soldiers.

muirgeo - Your comments in ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

muirgeo - Your comments in this thread are totally inappropriate and off-base.

As a liberal, I'm embarrassed by your actions.

Posted by: Lee

Well Lee you are one I respect as reasonable. Please tell me why I'm off base pointing out the hypocrisy of those who respect the Amish pacifism yet support an unjust war and call people like me and you treasonous for suggesting war is not the answer.

Liberal pacifism I c... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:


Liberal pacifism I cannot respect, Amish pacifism on the other hand proves itself quite noble.

Posted by: David Earney

The difference being???

Plus as always you paint with only black and white. Most Liberals are not Pacifist. Somewhere between the current War Mongering War Profiteering Chickhawk Neocon and the complete Pacifist exist a middle ground of common sense and benevolence mixed with a rarely used strong defense....Remember Kung Fu? Grasshopper?

I have an easy answer. You... (Below threshold)
Ryan M.:

I have an easy answer. You can respect something while disagreeing with it as the most appropriate course of action.

...those who respect the... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

...those who respect the Amish pacifism yet support an unjust war and call people like me and you treasonous for suggesting war is not the answer.

Perhaps that is because there's an inherent respect one has to have for people such as the Amish who posses such incredible forgiveness. It doesn't make those of us who support hypocrites necessarily, it does make us weaker than the Amish i would concede.

I would also caution that the scale of comparing the two (the Amish murders and the GWOT) is really unfair because the situations are entirely different. The Amish murders were a random act of violence; the violence perpetrated by terorists has unquestionably been ongoing, nay, almost relentless for years and it has been global, murdering countless innocents--women, men and children were near unconsciousness or humanity.

You also suggested in this thread that we should talk instead of drop bombs. A perfectly reasonable and rational solution. However, that assumes that OBL and his minions and other terrorists are somehow reasonable and rational; clearly they have demonstated that talking is the last thing they want. Nor have they ever offered a truce or a ceasefire of any kind or offered to negotiate a settlement that a) hasn't involved all of us renouncing our Christian gods and submitting to Mohammad and Allah or leaving the Middle East entirely and, essentially, ending any and all support for Israel. None of which are within the zip code of reasonable or rational or are ever going to happen.

I believe that while you believe that war is antithetical to leading a good Christian life, I would say that, yes, in some instances, that proves true. However, if say, we turned the other cheek in WWII, what would have happened to us the human race? Imagine what an awful world it would be with true fascists ruling the earth. From a humanity standpoint, from a Christian standpoint, how can you just stand back and watch the world get slaughtered? I think the greater sin is not to act, in certain instances. Yes, there's sin in war, no question.

And what would have happened if we turned the other cheek after 9/11? Would it have shown we were a "better" people becuase of it? Possibly. But we were attacked on 9/11 because OBL and Co. thought we were "paper tigers"; or, rather, because we turned the other cheek (somewhat) he felt he could act with little or no response. After 30+ years of turnign the cheek, it was clear on 9/11 that we could no longer afford to do such a thing as humanity and the world would be (and still is) in danger if we did. Not fighting back would be the greater sin; letting humantiy be ruled by murderous madmen without conscious is not a option. And it would be sin to turn the other cheek.

In short, there are times to turn the cheek or "give my beard to those that pluck" at it, and there are times not to turn the other cheek. That is how I live with supporting the GWOT.

Finally, and I'm going to pick on you here a bit, you're not really an atheist. As a former Catholic you should know that our modern sense of humanity, our sense of morality, our sense of right and wrong, across the world, comes from the teachings of Christ. It is undeniable. You may not believe in God or that Christ is the Son of Man, and that's fine. As a human being living in today's world it is a philopsohical impossibility for you to be an atheist. Agnostic? Sure. Atheist? Nah.

I don't agree with pacifism... (Below threshold)

I don't agree with pacifism in any case (and someone mentioned that Ghandi lucked out in the choice of who he oppossed with non-violent measures.) But I respect true pacifists. It's not an easy thing. It's an admirable undertaking and I'm glad that America is a place where those people can live. We're better for having their example.

Pacifism has no concept of an "unjust" war.

This is where the peace movement today fails completely to even approach the concept of pacifism. They aren't peaceful. "War isn't the answer" is a lie dripping from their lips. Every aspect of their lifes reflects confrontation and violence and often hate. Look at the demonstrations, the slogans, nothing about the "peace" movement is peaceful.

It's nothing more to do with "peace" that not believing in the cause. With cause violence is embraced, be it throwing a stone through a recruiting office window, flinging hateful sexist words at a deserving target, or getting rid of that fetus that's going to put a cramp in your life, or rushing a stage and intimidating people you hate into silence. Nothing about the left is peaceful. Nothing about the peace "groups" that protest are peaceful.

Equating people like the Amish to Peace activists is not only unfounded, but a bit like equating something noble to a pile of shit.

muirgeo,Being a Ch... (Below threshold)
BigCatGirl:

muirgeo,

Being a Christian is a life long jouney and process. It is a process that takes in the need for weeding out the weeds and growth. The Amish are IMHO, lay Christians that have for monesteries, whole communities. They are a quiet folk and have lived to the fullest their Christian faith. What their have experenced in their sorrow is an example for the rest of the Christian community of the USA to remind us that we must aways reform our lives to the full.

Brian, you said that "The m... (Below threshold)
Jim Price:

Brian, you said that "The main reason for forgiving is to allow the victim to get on with his or her life without dwelling on the past."

I have to disagree with that- you paint a very selfish picture of the act. Forgiveness has nothing to do with easing the mind of the one who has wronged you.

Forgiveness has much to do with the person doing the forgiving. One of the fundamental pillars of living the Christian life is forgiving those who have wronged you.

Of course it makes little sense to forgive someone before they repent (turn away) from the behavior that has wronged you; occasionally that may take away the motivation for repentance; but there is ultimately a time to forgive anyway. Sometimes repentance will not come- in this case, the man is now dead, so he obviously cannot repent.

Forgiveness is about realizing that our Father in heaven forgives us, and that He has instructed us to follow that example and "forgive those who have trespassed against us, as we have trespassed against them".

No one on this planet is innocent of tresspass against another. If we are to follow the example of Christ, we should ALL be willing to forgive as these brave, quiet folk have.

I'd like to think I could do the same if I were them, but I don't know if I'd be able to.

Tnat the Amish have so few ... (Below threshold)
Richard Aubrey:

Tnat the Amish have so few horrors to endure and forgive is due to their being surrounded by large numbers of non-pacifists.
Many million of us less laudable people dream of, somehow, catching that effing b...... before he got going and pulling his guts out.
Had one of us been able to do so, the Amish would have been spared.

muirgeo,Have you e... (Below threshold)
BigCatGirl:

muirgeo,

Have you ever heard of the "just war theory" ? That was a philosphy taught by a great Christian, St. Augustine.




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