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Up, Up, and Away

Today the Dow passed 11,900 for the first time ever.

Update: The Dow closed at 11,947.70.


Comments (84)

Damn those Bush tax cuts! ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Damn those Bush tax cuts! They're destroying the "democrat" party...

(sarcasm off)

Huge public debt, ma... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:


Huge public debt, massive trade imbalance, negative personal savings, increasing housing foreclosures, huge gap between rich and poor incomes/wealth....but its a BIG NUMBER ...What a nice house....lets build it higher with some more cards.

http://www.stock-market-crash.net/1929.htm

All Doom and Goom, all the ... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

All Doom and Goom, all the time!

Thanks, muirgeo!

Not!

Meanwhile the poor and midd... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Meanwhile the poor and middle-class families in America continue to struggle and fall further behind.

The Republicans don't make any pretenses of trying to help. It's only tax cuts for the rich, and help and support for any lobbyist willing to pay the freight.

I'm middle class and my fam... (Below threshold)
A.J.:

I'm middle class and my family has struggled through the years and is getting ahead... not behind.

Another middle-classer here... (Below threshold)
Wyatt:

Another middle-classer here... hard work and common sense has brought my family from lower-middle to middle class... without welfare handouts. It's called hard work, taking those jobs that others might turn their noses up at, and trying to find better jobs while working at the crappy ones. You go without luxuries (that people consider necessities)- no television, buying calling cards instead of regular long distance through the phone company, buying clothes at Goodwill, rolling up pennies, buying generic brand instead of name brand, buying at thrift stores, etc. No xbox, no ipods, etc. Liberals like to think doing it yourself is impossible, but it's not.

Obviously this must be a mi... (Below threshold)
OLDPUPPYMAX:

Obviously this must be a misprint. Harry Reid has said the economy is terrible. Unless of course one is involved in real estate.

Lee:Your correct. ... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

Lee:

Your correct. It is only tax cuts for the rich, since the poor don't pay any taxes. One day you will figure out that when you continue to say only stupid things people will assume you are stupid. Even the worst of the Democratic pundits have quit beating the dead horse that you keep pounding on.

USMC Pilot,Lee has... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

USMC Pilot,

Lee has been demonstrating his stupidity here for quite a while now. No one here needs to assume.

Gimme Gimme 12G Maan, <b... (Below threshold)

Gimme Gimme 12G Maan,
Gimme Gimme 12G Maan,
I wanna short the 12G Maaan!

(cue Joey's Maria Bartiromo)

Yuh know lee and the other ... (Below threshold)
David:

Yuh know lee and the other twit, I starting working young doing jobs no American would want, picking fruit, cleaning latrines, detaslling corn, etc. 30 years later I am upper middle class and you class robbers want to steal my years of hard work so you can feel good about yourself. No thanks.

All Doom and Goom, all the ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

All Doom and Goom, all the time!

Thanks, muirgeo!

Not!

Posted by: Sheik Yur Bouty


Can't you guys ever comment with some substance?????


Tell me why we should rejoice over a stock market number in isolation and ignore the other factors?

It's not my doom and gloom that's the problem it's your unwillingness to consider the facts.

It is only a matter of time... (Below threshold)
Michael A:

It is only a matter of time before the antique MSM attempts to tie their over-hyped Foley coverage and silly theories about Democrats taking both houses of congress to account for the recent string of stock market records. Some strange headlines may appear as this link is made such as: "DOW surges as investors react to prospect of Democratic mid-term victory".

I'm middle class and my fam... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

I'm middle class and my family has struggled through the years and is getting ahead... not behind.

Posted by: A.J.

Well that settles it then....the middle class is doing just fine as long as they...."struggle"...

AJ you are one person and the steam roller of economic collapse that these guys have got us on could quickly turn to against yopu. eanwhile these super wealthy people who are screwing you over will have no problem weathering the storm because their incomes have gone up 300% compared to yours and THEY HAVEN'T WORKED one bit harder....they've simply controled the system to transfer wealth in their direction.....you believe what you want and just keep on struggling because it ain't gonna get any easier for you and your kids with these guys Robber Baron policies.

Some strange headlines m... (Below threshold)

Some strange headlines may appear as this link is made such as: "DOW surges as investors react to prospect of Democratic mid-term victory".

Michael, it would take a twisted mind to consider investors running up the market in hopeful anticipation of higher capital gains taxes. In other words: you're right, we'll probably start seeing this in the press before long, along with the stories about how 'wealthy rupublican backers, fat and bloated with their tax handouts from the poor, are artificially inflating the market to make the economy look better than it is, after all, isn't inflation still at a staggeringly, unconscionably high 4.6%?'.

You misunderstand me. My f... (Below threshold)
AJ:

You misunderstand me. My family has struggled in the past. We're doing fine now. It's not a struggle anymore. Yes, working hard to get from poor to comfortable is a struggle. Read what David commented. A lot of us middle-classers feel the same way he does. And we're tired of people like you saying it HAS to ALWAYS be a struggle, saying middle class life is terrible, how we're being sucked dry and dragged down. It's a lie, and I'm tired of people blindly labelling to support their agenda.

@ muirgeo...it'... (Below threshold)
Red Fog:

@ muirgeo

...it's your unwillingness to consider the facts.

That's rich. Why attempt to argue economics with a lib. They all think welfare and retreat can keep him warm and safe? I say, I say, you're a jackass, boy! Now go away. The big roaster has a job to do.

I think libs are just jealo... (Below threshold)
Jason:

I think libs are just jealous of people who have worked to achieve their wealth. Why should someone who has worked and had their investments pay off handsomely have to be penalized? This country is great because we're able to forge our own destinies. I should not be forced to have my wealth taken and given to people who won't work, who are lazy and ignorant. The system we have now sucks, because it's so easily abused. I know a guy with three kids by two moms, who is THRILLED because he's getting housing, food stamps, hundreds of dollars a month, heating assistance, etc. He brags about getting to live off the system instead of having to work- he says he hates to work (he hasn't held a job for longer than two weeks in YEARS, literally). He'd much rather stay up all night playing Halo 2 on his X-Box. THIS is the problem with society, not free enterprise.

It is only tax cuts for ... (Below threshold)
Lee:

It is only tax cuts for the rich, since the poor don't pay any taxes. One day you will figure out that when you continue to say only stupid things people will assume you are stupid."

USMC Pilot, I humor you and your attacks, usually just ignoring your stupid remarks, but that takes the cake.

FYI - Their used to be (and many think still is) a lower-middle class and a middle class and an upper middle class in America that don't benefit from the capital gains tax cuts - or has the Republian party just written off anyone with an income of under $200,000 a year?

Lee, Muirgeo, others who ha... (Below threshold)
Laney:

Lee, Muirgeo, others who have posted conveying their dislike of the current economic system... please humor me- I wondered if you could tell me what you'd change to make the system work the way you think it should? And what would the end result of it be? Asking this sincerely, I promise. Thanks very much.

Muirego, what was the purpo... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Muirego, what was the purpose of that link? What you have so aptly demonstrated is that you are no student of financial history, at least as it applies to this country. When was the last time you could buy stocks on a 90% margine? I think the difference between now and then is lost on you. As a matter of fact, many things are lost on you and your sisters, Lee, Brian, Hugh and Barney. Things like honesty, truth, intellect, intelligence, facts, faith, and reailty.

Muirgeo and Lee evidently l... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Muirgeo and Lee evidently live a sheltered life. I live in small town America (all small towns), I see hundreds of new homes going up on ever plot of land available, new vehicles in every driveway (not one buy several per home) and everyone I know is working. I do not honestly know one person that is losing their home (I see a few in the paper where people bit off more than they can chew, or drug dealers getting caught and the law selling their homes) or anyone that is looking for a job unless they are looking for a specific job (never going to get it in the area) and won't accept anything else.

I do hear Peloshi (a multi-millionaire) screaming she will do away with the tax cuts for the rich. Give me a break, my tax cut (and it was a good one) will disappear long before Peloshi and that bunch of criminals lose a dime of theirs. Anyone with a brain knows the rich will never take away from the rich.

The Poor and the middle class has shrunk because more and more people moved up, not down.

I've been clearing some large trees around my home and may as well sit and talk to one of the stumps as talk to a brain dead democrat when he leaves his $250,000 home and pulls up in my driveway in his $45,000 diesel truck, drinking Bud and complaining about hard times. Calling them brain dead is being polite.

Time to paint my 4 X 8 signs and mount in my truck telling the public to look out, Peloshi is going to take away every gain (high paying job, tax cuts, investments, etc) they've made in the past six years (a lot) and put them back on unemployment.

The rich democrats just can't stand to see the average person get ahead so they will drive them down again.

Laney,Thanks good ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Laney,

Thanks good question.

First...we need to make lobbying basically illegal. An indirect passage of money from a Corporation to a lobbyist to a politician IS NOT free speech....its bribery and influence peddling.

We need single payer health care. We are the only developed nation with out it. We pay over $10,000 a year for health insurance and other countries pay $5,000 and have better outcomes.

We need to drop the rate on social security to 3% and get rid of the cap. This along with rolling the VA medical system, meducare and medicaid together will pay for a single payer system.

We need to walk away from GATT, NAFTA and the WTO. Ross Perot was absolutly right. The big sucking sound is happening...our jobs and money are all going overseas never again to be invested in our country and its people.

Tariffs need to be re-instituted.

Unions need to be empowered not weekened.

Eductation has to be prime. We need to invest much more in education. Head Start, day care and and work training programs properly done repay society much more then we invest. College loans need to be easier and college costs need to be less.

Taxes on the wealthy need to be returned to at least the Clinton era rates.

We can discuss from here...I have to go back to work.

But before you disparage my ideas think back to the last time we had policies like now that you advocate and how it ended up in the Great Depression...then remember how FDR instituted policies as I mention and the middle class worker saw his income and security rise substantially.

Next look at all the other third world countries and all the democracies of Europe and the world and ask which have polcies that resemble the republicans and which have policies that resemble what I and many progressives advocate.

Why is Mexico and Colombia like they are and why is Sweden and canada as they are?


OK let's see if there are any neocons capable of honest intellectual debate...otherwise let the name calling being.

Remember, the liberal defin... (Below threshold)
hermie:

Remember, the liberal definition of 'rich' is anyone who has more than you do. They have no clear definition of who is 'rich', so they can go and play the class warfare game.

If they talk to a bunch of hamburger flippers, the 'rich' are those who own their own home.

When they talk to clerical staffers, the 'rich' are those who own an SUV and have fully vested 401Ks.

When they talk to middle management types, the 'rich' are those who get stock options.

When they talk to professionals like doctors and lawyers, the 'rich' are those who are CEOs of corporations.

It goes on and on. As long as their is a group who does better than another, the Dems will always point to the 'rich'.

To the Dems, anyone who has... (Below threshold)
BOB:

To the Dems, anyone who has a dime left to tax is "rich."

We need to walk aw... (Below threshold)
We need to walk away from GATT, NAFTA and the WTO. Ross Perot was absolutly right. The big sucking sound is happening...our jobs and money are all going overseas never again to be invested in our country and its people.

Hmmm. Then why is our unemployment half that of Western Europe's, with its much more protected economies?

Goodbye to 11,000..Hello 12... (Below threshold)
914:

Goodbye to 11,000..Hello 12,000.. Darn it BUSH KNOCK IT OFF!! I wanna give all My new found profits to Peloshi and Gried and the rest of the Demoncratic multi-billionaire party..heehee No way bitchasses!!!

Thank you Muirgeo, I'll pro... (Below threshold)
Laney:

Thank you Muirgeo, I'll probably have more questions later on about a couple of your points. I appreciate you taking the time to post back to me.

Muirego is there some part ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Muirego is there some part of the failed communist system you could not ingest? Muirego, I do not see people that live in capitalistic countries as sucessful as this one moving to socialist countries. This country has the greatest economy in the world, and you want to change it. No nation on earth with a population equal to ours lives anywhere near as well as we do, inspite of what you might read in the newspaper of your choice. Only an idiot denies the truth when it stands in front of him, and Muirego, you are an idiot.

Laney,Good I look ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Laney,

Good I look forward to some serious discussion. Hard to find around here.....see the replies I got already about how I define rich...those people aren't interested in other view points or serious discussion.

I think I asked some good question and made some good points about different political economies and different economies in other countries. Lets ee if any one can answer them.

The rich would roughly be those making over $300,000 / year and the Super rich would be those with incomes of over $1,000,000 per year.

Hmmm. Then why is our unemp... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Hmmm. Then why is our unemployment half that of Western Europe's, with its much more protected economies?

Posted by: JohnAnnArbor

I think they calculate the numbers different. In Europe if you are out of work you count as unemployed. Here you only count if you are activly looking for work.

Europeans take far more time off, retire younger, live longer and never have to be worried about health insurance even when without a job.

Now you tell me about unemploymwent rates in Mexico and other third world countries that have economies like you want to set up here.

And I mean that. Tell me why you wouldn't want to live in Mexico or Columbia....they have minimal taxes, no regulation and illegal abortion along with concentrated wealth a small middle class and a huge underclass and an elitist single party rule.

Muirego is there some part ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Muirego is there some part of the failed communist system you could not ingest? Muirego, I do not see people that live in capitalistic countries as sucessful as this one moving to socialist countries. This country has the greatest economy in the world, and you want to change it. No nation on earth with a population equal to ours lives anywhere near as well as we do, inspite of what you might read in the newspaper of your choice. Only an idiot denies the truth when it stands in front of him, and Muirego, you are an idiot.

Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft

Here we go again!!! Zeldorf name calling and setting up Straw man arguements. I'm not talking about communism. I'm talking abouit a democratic system. If anything the question to you should be what part of failed fascism governemnts don't you understand? Your support for this administration makes you far more of a fascist then I am a communist.

Were we a great country in the 50's and 60s after 30 years of FDR's policies??? Are we better now after 25 years of Reagan policies?

Here you go Zeldorf this is... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Here you go Zeldorf this is what your pulling for.

http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

Muirego, I see you are not ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Muirego, I see you are not only and idiot, you are a liar as well. I am not calling you names, I am describing you. If I called you a moonbat I would be calling you a name. Many of FDR's programs violated the U.S. Constitution, as it was written. Social Security is surely not the job of the Government as envisioned by the framers. Neither is socialized medicine, welfare or income tax, for that matter. Muirego, you believe in government, I do not. You democratic idiots want to throw my money at every problem that comes along. Let me see. Under FDR's sucesssful dealing with Joseph Stalin, millions in easter Europe suffered and died. Because of actions of the Reagan Administration, the Soviet Union is not on the ashheap of history. Rooseveldt was a democrat who turned the party toward socialism, Reagan was once a democrat, through enlightenment became the greatest American President of out time. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it.

Muirego, I see you are not ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Muirego, I see you are not only and idiot, you are a liar as well. I am not calling you names, I am describing you. If I called you a moonbat I would be calling you a name. Many of FDR's programs violated the U.S. Constitution, as it was written. Social Security is surely not the job of the Government as envisioned by the framers. Neither is socialized medicine, welfare or income tax, for that matter. Muirego, you believe in government, I do not. You democratic idiots want to throw my money at every problem that comes along. Let me see. Under FDR's sucesssful dealing with Joseph Stalin, millions in easter Europe suffered and died. Because of actions of the Reagan Administration, the Soviet Union is not on the ashheap of history. Rooseveldt was a democrat who turned the party toward socialism, Reagan was once a democrat, through enlightenment became the greatest American President of out time. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it.

Sorry for the double entry.... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Sorry for the double entry.

Muirego do you really want ... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Muirego do you really want to compare the US economy to the EU economy?

Population Below the Poverty Line:
EU: 17%
US: 12%

Inflation:
EU: 2.1%
US: 3.2%

GDP:
EU: 12T
US: 12T

Real GDP:
EU: 1.5%
US: 3.0%

GDP per Capita:
EU: $26,900
US: $41,800

Unemployment:
EU: 9.1%
US: 4.6%

Europe lags behind the US in almost all categories. Read this.

EU birth rates are declining and so is the population, whereas US birth rates are growing and so is the US population.

Read this and this

I've lived in Europe and the U.S. Have you lived in both? I can tell you from personal experience that Europeans have a much lower standard of living than Americans. They live in smaller houses, drive smaller cars, and I always thought their food products were of much lower quality.

I certainly wouldn't want the same kind of health care they have in the EU.

Anecdotally, my neighbor is Welsh. She had to have a front tooth replaced when she was in the UK and what they did was extract one of her wisdom teeth and reshape it to be her front tooth. It looked horrible. When she got to the U.S. she had it corrected.

She has lived all over Europe and has nothing but praise for the U.S. healthcare system compared to the European healthcare system. It may be free for everybody, but you get what you pay for too.

As for unions, I have worked in Union shops and non Union shops. Every union shop I've ever worked the unions were corrupt and productivity was horrible. All of the non-union shops I've ever worked were better run, people made more money and had better working conditions. Go figure.

Muirgeo, I find that intere... (Below threshold)

Muirgeo, I find that interesting. I was reading an article in an old Economist that my mother sent to me on my ship (I'm a Merchant Mariner), and I'm not sure if you know, but The Economist is a publication that originates in Great Britain, so their articles are usually written with a slightly conservative UK slant (I say slightly conservative because I do not know the political party situation in the UK, what they stand for etc..., but considering the advertisements in the magazine...often for top management, political jobs, they probably cater more towards businessmen). It was a VERY interesting article about the welfare reform pushed forward by the American Congress during the Clinton years that Clinton broke away from his party line and actually signed. They wrote that despite all the hooting and calling from the left in America (and most of the European left-leaning politicians, too), it was supremely successful. In case you don't know, it had to do with the time limit of being on welfare, forcing many to look for work instead of staying on welfare indefinitely. The article mentions one precinct in Ohio where they set up an emergency center when the time limit for the first group was about to hit, ready to "hand out cash". According to the article, they never received a call, everyone was able to get a job that wanted one.

I sort of bring up that point to introduce this, there is a difference between unemployed and unemployable. The unemployed is considered to be those that are only without a job because of the rising and falling of the market, a temporary thing, while the unemployable are those that either don't want to work or can't. That the Europeans don't distinguish between the two just an example of their welfare state.

Now to talk about their health insurance is sort of a misnomer. Socialized medicine, which is what is practiced in much of the world, isn't exactly the greatest. One reason we have such great doctors, great specialists is that those that do exceptional work in saving lives, allowing people to live better lives than they normally would, are rewarded for it. The day doctors are protected by unions...is the very day that I start to mistrust my healthcare system. Doctors that can't operate on you because they are taking their "union coffee" break, or who show up to work even slightly inebriated and they just happen to work on you, screwing you up but you can't do anything about it because the state's doctors are always right, and the union says you can't take his job away.

One reason why unemployment is so high in Europe is because of the difficulty in firing someone. I've read articles about that in France it's extremely hard to fire someone, due to it being so expensive, so its hard for new, young people to find a job.

Come on, folks. Lee, muerto... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Come on, folks. Lee, muerto, Brian, Hugh and Barney have long ago demonstrated their intellectual inadequacies. They're constant moaning and bitching merely underscore the desperate state of liberalism. Why should we bother to lend them our credibility? I vote for leaving them alone and allowing them to look stupid, all by themselves.

"I think they calculate the... (Below threshold)
RicardoVerde:

"I think they calculate the numbers different. In Europe if you are out of work you count as unemployed. Here you only count if you are activly looking for work.
Europeans take far more time off, retire younger, live longer and never have to be worried about health insurance even when without a job.
Now you tell me about unemployment rates in Mexico and other third world countries that have economies like you want to set up here.
And I mean that. Tell me why you wouldn't want to live in Mexico or Columbia....they have minimal taxes, no regulation and illegal abortion along with concentrated wealth a small middle class and a huge underclass and an elitist single party rule."

My counterpoint, for what it's worth:
Europe has higher unemployment rates .... Because they have higher unemployment. The US rate, although understated by some measures, is also overstated by others. A sizeable portion of the US unemployed actually work, but do so under the table. I have very close associates that are in carpenter and pipe fitter unions that are often listed as unemployed but they seldom are without paying work. Even the majority of undocumented aliens (that is, illegal aliens) spend most of their time at tasks that are paid. European unemployed are paid to not work, so they generally don't, or at least don't try as much as American workers. Why should they?

As far as the comparisons made between the US and Mexico/Columbia I think a better choice would have been Mexico and Cuba. Cuba has in place almost all of the items on your wish list. I have worked in southern Mexico (Minatitlan and Coatzacoalcos). Poverty is very widespread and noticeable without even trying. They are still better off than Cubans.

We mostly have "economies like you want to set up here" already in place in the US. Our national debt, while much greater than I would like, is still not at the inflation adjusted figures for the second world war and probably not much different than the late Carter, early Reagan years. I get tired of writing. Hope this helps.

Muirego, you believe in gov... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Muirego, you believe in government, I do not.

Posted by: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III


First I DO believe in government when it is OF, BY and FOR the people....that's called a democratic system. To say you don't like government to me says you don't like people...WE ARE the government but we've been taken over by corporations.

Further you TOO obviously DO believe in government and BIG GOVERNMENT at that because you support Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2 who each have spent more money then any other president in history.

The difference being is that their spending went to bombs and corporate welfare....while FDR to Kennedy spent money on people and infrastructure.

"mun-go"(linkman) if it is ... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

"mun-go"(linkman) if it is so damn bad here why are there 12,000,000 Mexicans here. You are frigging dumber then dirt.

You prove my point consider... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

You prove my point considering the stupidity of your statements and lack of historical knowledge. Kennedy claimed a vast missle gap between the Soviet Union and the USA. Does the term Minuteman I II and III mean anything to you. What do you think it cost to develop our ICBM systems? What do you think the Manhatten project cost, which started at the behest of FDR? Roosevelt spent more money an any one of his terms than any President preceeding him. Muirego, I do not suffer fools well, and you are a fool. That is not a name that is an evaluation. I suppose the only answer is to ignore you which I will endeavor to do.

muirgeo:"bombs & c... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

muirgeo:

"bombs & corporate welfare" vs "people & infrastructue"

Bombs protect us!

Corporate welfare protects jobs and provides profits for dividends to stockholders!

Money to the sick, lame, and lazy is money down a rabbit hole!

Infrastructure is a good thing, but usually ignored by both parties.

BTW, corporations are not things, they are people.

muirgeo:When you o... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

muirgeo:

When you outlaw the lobbyist, does that include the lawers and unions (especially the teachers)?

Why is it that we spend more per child now than we ever have and yet you seem to agree that education in this country is going to hell in a hand basket?

Don't you suppose that when we instigate tariffs that other countries will do the same, thus reducing our production as well as theirs?

Mungo, Lee, Hugh, etc how c... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

Mungo, Lee, Hugh, etc how could this be!!

We were all told that this was the worst economy since Herbert Hoover!

If that's the case, I'll take more of this Depression. Yeehaw!

I, too, unlike Mungo, Lee, ... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

I, too, unlike Mungo, Lee, et al lived in Europe for a period of time (6 months in the '80's, several months worth of travel in the 2000's), and our standard of living, even in a place like England which is comparatively richer than most of the rest of Europe, is much greater.

There is no doubt about it. The houses here are bigger, newer, better constructed, equipped; the gas is much cheaper here, the jobs more plentiful, the costs lower.

You boys need to get off your computers and see a bit of the world. Even if you can't understand what you read about it.

I agree Mitchell, I see the... (Below threshold)

I agree Mitchell, I see the world, one port at a time (granted it's only for a few days, max). I'm grateful that I chose to be employed (currently, anyway) by Military Sealift Command so that I actually get some time to go in and see the world. I've sailed most of this world's oceans, and been to most of this world's continents. America by far has the best standard of living (for the Average Joe), the best healthcare (we may pay a little more for it, but I think it's freaking worth it), the best economy, etc...
I can't say we're best overall, I haven't visited all of the world, but I am right proud to be a citizen of the United States of America.

Henry, we do have it good. ... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

Henry, we do have it good. Some people don't realize how good.

I have often thought that my travelling Eastern and Western Europe in the '80's (including USSR and Eastern Bloc) was the best thing I did, besides marrying my wife. It really gave me some perspective on the world.

And I can't think of many things I'd rather be doing than traveling to other countries, seeing the culture, meeting the people. It's a great experience.

It's great you are able to do some of that, and server the country. God Bless.

muirgeo:1)When you... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

muirgeo:

1)When you outlaw the lobbyist, does that include the lawers and unions (especially the teachers)?

2) Why is it that we spend more per child now than we ever have and yet you seem to agree that education in this country is going to hell in a hand basket?

3) Don't you suppose that when we instigate tariffs that other countries will do the same, thus reducing our production as well as theirs?

Posted by: USMC Pilot

1 ) Absolutly..YES!!!

2 ) I'm not sure that's true. I thought spending has gone down. It has in California. But I do know in California per pupil spending is about $4,500 and if you want to go to a private school you'll pay much more and they don't even have to deal with all the special needs kids.....It's a myth that privatization is always better and cheaper.

3) Many countries already DO impose tariffs and the playing field is not level as our workers/ businesses have lots of regulations (good regulations) that these third world workers don't have to deal with.


USMC Pilot what is happening now is all about maximizing profits for multinational corporations and nothing about democracy or the American middle class. You don't see that?? It amazes me you all worry about the United Nations taking away our sovereignty but seem to be willing to casually give it away to multinational corporations. I don't get it???

"I think libs are just jeal... (Below threshold)

"I think libs are just jealous of people who have worked to achieve their wealth."

Ahhhh that would be incorrect Jason. Unlike you, we view this country as a whole and not just our own little families tucked away in surburbia. So no, we are not jealous of your wealth, we just think it would be nice if America's leaders-the frat boy et al-could insure that more people share in that wealth that you like to proclaim that you have ;)

Now now Mitchell, in a spat... (Below threshold)

Now now Mitchell, in a spat of modesty, I'm not "in the service" except maybe the oft-forgotten Merchant Marines. Thank you though, and I do enjoy the work. I travel the world, play with huge engines and machinery, and get paid for it. It's a bonus that I also happen to work on ships that keep the Navy supplied at sea (My last ship was the USNS Mount Baker, one of the older ammunition supply ships, my current ship is the USNS Saturn, one of the dry cargo supply ships). We keep the Navy "At sea", so to speak.
If you would like more information, check out http://www.msc.navy.mil
or
http://www.sealiftcommand.com

Because of MSC, I've been to Djibouti, Africa (small country in the horn of Africa that's currently in the middle of the Somalia-Ethiopa spat, US Military Base is located there in support of OEF), United Arab Emirates (Dubai, interesting place, extremely commerce-friendly, but still "ruled" in the real sense of the word, each Emirate having its own ruler), Bahrain (small tourist-friendly country off the coast of Qatar in the Persian Gulf, Michael Jackson was reported to be living there, the US Navy has a good-sized Morale, Welfare, and Recreational installation there)...and a few others.

I've sailed to many other countries (too many to list), islands, and territories as a function of sailing on the training ships from maritime academies (in the Pacific on the training ship from California Maritime Academy, my alma mater, and the Atlantic/Mediterranean with State University of New York's Maritime College as my first job as an engineering watch officer).

Heh, sorry I tend to ramble on.....

A sure sign the economy is ... (Below threshold)
Jo:

A sure sign the economy is doing fine is that it took a sex scandal for the dems to perhaps take control of one of the House or Senate.

And dats the fact, jack.

Muriego and Lee are just pi... (Below threshold)
Jo:

Muriego and Lee are just pissed the economy is doing so well. All the lengthy posts and attempts to complicate the matter just make them look silly.

It's pretty simple. We're doing good. I blame Bush : )

"Multinational Corporations... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

"Multinational Corporations" is a term used by those who don't know what one is, how it operates, or the contribution it makes to our economy and standard of living.

If there were no "multinational corporations," our overseas earnings would be greatly diminished, or cost of goods greater, and therefore, a drag on economic growth we've had throughout our history.

Saying you're against "multinational corporations" is like saying you're against "demand and supply" or something else basic; that's what makes it nonsensical.

You'd outlaw them, then. Brilliant. Without any proof for your fantastic conspiracy claims.

Typical lib. Don't understand economics, doomed to wallow in your own failures. The rest of us are headin' up. So, see ya later. Your choice.

Henry, thanks for that post. I wish I could see all those sights. I've more recently gone to C. America, and married a nice chica from Nicaragua. It is really a paradise down there despite the old Press. Very nice people. Few tourists. Gorgeous scenery. I wasn't a "nature person" until I went down there. That's as exotic as I've gotten so far.

..what is happening now ... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

..what is happening now is all about maximizing profits for multinational corporations..

...and as as result good things happen.

What an economy! we have 95... (Below threshold)
jainphx:

What an economy! we have 95.4% of Americans working in this country,And we also have 50% of Mexico working in this country.Thats some thing to brag about,by the way I'm very comfortably retired even though I only had a 10th grade education.Of course back then it was almost adequite.I worked very hard from carrying beef to so many dirty jobs until I finally bought my own business.Lee and Muirigo would' nt understand no sense arguing.Bush has saved our economy with tax cuts,cuts that work every time they are tried.

It's amazing that this is s... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

It's amazing that this is such a heated topic with the large amounts of comments... ...and primarily good comments.

Although it's just a number, and an American number at that, the DJIA does not reflect necessarily the wealth that has is occuring in other parts of the world, such as India and China.

That said, my question is - is the DJIA represented properly...

Source: http://www.fool.com/school/indices/djia.htm

Consumer Discretionary 6 20.0%
Consumer Staples 3 10.0%
Energy 1 3.3%
Healthcare 2 6.7%
Industrials 6 20.0%
Information Tech 4 13.3%
Materials 3 10.0%
Telecomm. Services 2 6.7%

As I mentioned, it's a U.S. number, so of the high-cap companies that are listed, are they the correct ones?

In my opinion, yes.

Snowball--I think the DJIA ... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

Snowball--I think the DJIA is ok. I'm more interested in small caps since that is the "farm team" that sends us the big ones. But with the dynamism comes volatility.

The big value companies have nice earnings and stability. That's why they're finally getting their day in the sun.

Mitchell, I can relate on a... (Below threshold)

Mitchell, I can relate on a stop to Quepos, Costa Rica on the Cal Maritime training ship, TS Golden Bear. Just nearby Quepos is a rain forest, and we also stopped on Cocos Island (owned by Costa Rica), also a protected area.

by the way, Imperial, brewed in Costa Rica, is one of the best beers in the world. I charge any of you to disagree. =-)

Why is Mexico and Colomb... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Why is Mexico and Colombia like they are and why is Sweden and canada as they are?

Are you really sure you want to pick Sweden and Canada as your shining examples? I seem to recall that BOTH COUNTRIES just threw out their Liberal Governments recently.

Mitchell @<a href="http://w... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

Mitchell @ October 12, 2006 10:01 PM

Agreed. Small business in America is achieving leaps and bounds in efficiency, productivity and innovation.

Amen snowballs. Big evil "c... (Below threshold)

Amen snowballs. Big evil "corporations" aren't the ones who promote jobs, it's the small startups and small business that choose to expand even just a little are the job creators. The big corporations actually diminish jobs because the big corporations are most likely unionized, which minimizes the overall job market there. Companies are free to hire when they don't have the added burden of costs that unions give (and I'm not just talking pay, I'm also talking about legal fees resulting from negotiating contracts as well as lack of efficiency...to quote an exceptional movie, The Sand Pebbles, a phrase used about the chinamen "It's his rice bowl"-Steve McQueen's character tried to shave himself in the morning, but all the other Navy guys looked at him like he was evil because of the Chinaman barber...."it's his rice bowl").

First...we need to make ... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

First...we need to make lobbying basically illegal. An indirect passage of money from a Corporation to a lobbyist to a politician IS NOT free speech....its bribery and influence peddling.

A wonderful dream, but considering both parties benefit from soft money, it ain't gonna happen real soon.


We need single payer health care. We are the only developed nation with out it. We pay over $10,000 a year for health insurance and other countries pay $5,000 and have better outcomes.

Oh, lord, you've never suffered under the NHS have you? I have, trust me...you think a one-hour wait in the doctor's surgery is bad? Try waiting for several WEEKS to get an appointment! Better outcomes my left nut.

Americans may go to Canada/Mexico for cheaper drugs, but Canadians come here for their important medical procedures.


We need to drop the rate on social security to 3% and get rid of the cap. This along with rolling the VA medical system, meducare and medicaid together will pay for a single payer system.

Better yet, we need put the Social Security back ON THE BUDGET, and allow taxpayers to invest part of their SS into their own retirement plans.

I prefer to do away with it entirely, and take that SS money and put it in my IRA. I know I'll get a much better rate of return on it.


We need to walk away from GATT, NAFTA and the WTO. Ross Perot was absolutly right. The big sucking sound is happening...our jobs and money are all going overseas never again to be invested in our country and its people.

Tariffs need to be re-instituted.

I don't feel qualified to discuss the nuances of these issues, so I'll let them stand.


Unions need to be empowered not weekened.

Unions are so empowered these days that they are starting to bankrupt their employers. When
you can get paid to not work, I think that's some real f--ing empowerment:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm


Eductation has to be prime. We need to invest much more in education. Head Start, day care and and work training programs properly done repay society much more then we invest. College loans need to be easier and college costs need to be less.

Each year we allocate more and more money to education, and get less and less for it. Part of the problem is (ahem) the Teacher's Unions. Much of that money is going to their salaries, and they aren't giving us our money's worth. There's a reason private and home-schooling rates are up. Some of you here can't even spell properly (and I'm talking about consistantly, not a typo here and there).

Have you looked at the default rates of college loans? College loans are pretty easy to get, they just aren't being paid off.

I agree that college costs should be less, but tell that to the administrations and faculty who demand more money to do less in class. State colleges are less expensive than private ones anyway, so if that's the issue, go there. There are scholarships abound for just about anyone, if you know where to look.


Taxes on the wealthy need to be returned to at least the Clinton era rates.

At least? Why stop there? Why don't you roll them back to the Ford/Carter era? Business was really booming back then.


But before you disparage my ideas think back to the last time we had policies like now that you advocate and how it ended up in the Great Depression...

Sorry, that doesn't wash. The primary culprit of the Great Depression here was bad stock market practices, with wild speculation and buying on high margins. Practices that do not exist today. High tarrifs (didn't you advocate tarrifs up above)hurt international trade and agriculture the most. (Dust Bowl, anyone?) Weath disparity was MUCH MUCH greater than it is even now...there was virually no middle class to speak of. And then, finally, the Crash itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression


then remember how FDR instituted policies as I mention and the middle class worker saw his income and security rise substantially.

From same URL:
These reforms (together with relief and recover measures) are called by historians the First New Deal. It was centered around the use of an alphabet soup of agencies set up in 1933 and 1934, along with the use of previous agencies such as the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, to regulate and stimulate the economy. By 1935, the "Second New Deal" added Social Security, a national relief agency the Works Progress Administration (WPA), and, through the National Labor Relations Board a strong stimulus to the growth of labor unions. Unemployment fell by two-thirds in Roosevelt's first term (from 25% to 9%), but then remained stubbornly high until 1942.

9% is still pretty high. Note the year: 1942. Hmm...what were we doing in 1942? Hm...

While the worker programmes did some good, the overall depression hung through all of his term in office. It was, ironically, a world war which caused production to rise and productivity to increase again.


Next look at all the other third world countries and all the democracies of Europe and the world and ask which have polcies that resemble the republicans and which have policies that resemble what I and many progressives advocate.

Most of Europe have socialist governments and policies, and most of them have high unemployment, bad health care, lower standards of living, higher taxes, more government regulation than you could ever hope to get from Republicans, and lower birth rates. Most third-world countries are run by self-appointed autocratic regimes. So, this is what your progressives are advocating? No thanks.


And, Sweden and Canada just tossed their Liberal leaning governments, so your two shining examples were poorly chosen.

By the way, those jobs in t... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

By the way, those jobs in the FDR programmes were, you know, low-skilled labour jobs...you know, the ones that illegal aliens do today? Hard labour, and the pay wasn't that great, but at least you didn't starve. The jobs weren't exactly, you know, like being in a business office or anything.

Plus they were government jobs, and they were not permanant jobs either. But, if it's that or standing in a queue for soup...

Thank you James. That abou... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Thank you James. That about covers it. Any of you lefties want to dispute any of the above information?

Good comments James Cloning... (Below threshold)
snowballs:

Good comments James Cloninger,

The primary culprit of the Great Depression here was bad stock market practices.

And, don't forget that there was no FDIC then either, so when the run upon the banks happened, it was a crushing final blow. A lot has changed since then, in spite of what some folks have been saying, and even going so far as stating that today's economy can be compared to the pre-depression years.

"mun-go"(linkman) if it is ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

"mun-go"(linkman) if it is so damn bad here why are there 12,000,000 Mexicans here. You are frigging dumber then dirt.

Posted by: jhow66


Because corporations want them here because they benefit from the cheap labor. And thus the explanation why a completely Republican controlled government has done NOTHING to address the problem of illegal immigration because while they tell you, their SUCKER VOTERS, to your silly gullible face that they care about the illegal immigrant problem they are getting money behind their backs from the corporations that control them and have no interest in really addressing your concerns. Hey JHow what's it like to be a butt monkey pawn for the Corporatist Republican Party...must suckkkk hey???

muirgeo:"bombs & c... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

muirgeo:

"bombs & corporate welfare" vs "people & infrastructue"

Bombs protect us!

Corporate welfare protects jobs and provides profits for dividends to stockholders!

Money to the sick, lame, and lazy is money down a rabbit hole!

Infrastructure is a good thing, but usually ignored by both parties.

BTW, corporations are not things, they are people.

Posted by: USMC Pilot


"Bombs protect us!" Hmmm .....this is a little like Homer saying, " Donuts make Homer happy!" and thinking you've made a good point as to why everyone should eat more and more donuts.

Then you go on to justify corporatism which by definition makes you a fascist. You follow that with a plea for Social Darwinism and end it with the creme de la creme of bizarreness telling us that corporations are people. Nice job Corky!!!

Put circus music here...duet duet do do dododle duet duet do do dododle...DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE..DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE..DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE..DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE..DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE..DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE..DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE..DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE..DUET DUET DO DO DODODODLE.....

Because of MSC..........I'v... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Because of MSC..........I've been to Djibouti, Africa (small country in the horn of Africa that's currently in the middle of the Somalia-Ethiopa spat, US Military Base is located there in support of OEF), United Arab Emirates (Dubai, interesting place

Posted by: Henry


You mean because of the US Tax Payer right??? I do appreciate you service but it bugs the crap out of me when some people justify their line of government work ie the MSC and assume it plays a higher role then say teachers working in public schools or social services workers helping poor children.

Saying you're against "mult... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Saying you're against "multinational corporations" is like saying you're against "demand and supply" or something else basic; that's what makes it nonsensical.


Posted by: Mitchell


Mr Straw-man did you say something again? In fact I NEVER said I was against Multinational Corporation did I? To remind you my point was I'm against Multinational Corporations influencing elections and policy while undermining democracy OF, BY and FOR the people.

To say you support Corporations buying off elections, policy and politicians ( which is what It seems you MAY be saying) is like saying you favor a corporatist government over a democracy.

Is that a good statement of where you stand? Or in fact is there actually some significant common ground called democratic principles on which we both can stand?

Any of you lefties want... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Any of you lefties want to dispute any of the above information?

Judging by the above pointless posts by muirgeo, I'm guessing "non"

(It's French, see, mai quelle nuance, mai oui? Hon, Hon, Hon...)

Muirgeo....what kind of res... (Below threshold)

Muirgeo....what kind of response was that? Did I ever claim to have a "higher calling"? I never mention anyone else.

You know what? Fuck you. My older sister is a high school math teacher in San Dimas, California (and she despises the teacher's union, too). My younger sister is IN THE NAVY. She's stationed on the USS Ronald Reagan and you aren't worthy to lick the gunk out from between her toes.

field negro, people like me... (Below threshold)
Jason:

field negro, people like me do view this country as a whole. But we have different mindsets. Did you even read my post, or just the first line of it? I don't think people who have worked hard and made something of themselves should be forced to carry the lazy on their backs. I think charity should begin at home, not forced by the gov't by heavily taxing the rich. Another shining example of system abuse-- a single mom I know used her government assistance which was supposed to go toward her rent to buy her boyfriend a TV and stereo system for Christmas. She then went back to the gov't and lied, saying that she tried to access her money and due to a computer error she did not receive her money. This is what my taxes are supporting?? Now I know there's more to this all than the welfare system, and I do strongly feel there SHOULD be gov't programs for those who need help, but never will I support a socialist gov't and I'll never feel it's right for honest, hard-working people who have accumulated wealth to be penalized for it.

I'm young, am just getting ... (Below threshold)
Laney:

I'm young, am just getting into learning about different viewpoints and ideas, and I tend to have conservative views in general. I don't know much about liberal views (okay, I know the basic VIEWS but not the why of them) which is why I asked people to explain what they'd change and how it'd be done. Two points off the top of my head (regarding what Muirgeo posted) :

Healthcare for everyone, like Canada has-- yes it would be nice to have universal insurance/healthcare. It isn't right that so many, especially children, are not insured. BUT the universal system (at least in Canada- from what I read the problems are similar elsewhere) is flawed in terms of the quality of care. The quality of healthcare there is quite poor. My family has Canadian roots, and some relatives reside there. My uncle, a U.S. resident, had hip-replacement surgery here in the U.S.. Shortly after his first surgery, my grandmother (in Canada) was ill. My uncle decided against visiting her at that point... because he was afraid if something happened to his hip while he was there, he'd have to have Canadian health care. There was no way he wanted to risk injury in Canada because the health care there is so poor. (This wasn't just a prejudice on his part- he grew up in Canada and has dual-residency, so he knows the systems in Canada.) Further-- I read somewhere that a new drug to treat a longterm disease (I can't remember details but I'll try to find out more specifics) was not put on the market in Canada because it did not CURE the disease- even though it helped symptoms and gave relief, it was too expensive to put in the Canadian healthcare system BECAUSE of the universal healthcare. They couldn't afford the drug, so people must go without it. I think that's terrible. Also, if universal healthcare is implemented in the US then that means more doctors will be needed, and those doctors will very likely be mediocre at best. Is it not a health risk going to someone who really SHOULDN'T be a doctor? Just a few thoughts-

As for unions- I think they were a good idea in the past but now they are outrageously overpowered. Both my parents are union and both have conveyed disgust at the politics played, and how a vast majority of it is unnecessary. I've heard numerous similar complaints as well, from others. This is something I don't know a great deal about, and I do think unions help some people, but I don't think they are a necessity everywhere anymore.

I wish I had time to write more, and thanks for sharing your views (on BOTH sides)- debate is much more interesting than insults :)

Laney, I always v... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Laney,

I always voted Republican when I was younger. I believed in their motto of Individual responsibility and hated the Democrats lawyers and victim mentality. I still feel the same way about those issues but the Republican party does not..IMO. The current republican Party is all about transferring wealth and power to an elite few at the expense of the many and to the detriment of democracy.

Universal Health Care and labor unions are complex issues and can not be simplified into black and white. You make good points on both of them.

My advice to you is too ALWAYS listen to both sides. For the best Progressive view listen to Thom Hartmann. His show is free via Podcast on iTunes or at The White Rose Society. Also consider Lou Dobbs, Jack Cafferty or Kieth Olberman..and seriously for a satirical but somewhat honest view of poliitcs The Daily Show or the Çolbert Report.

He regularly invites Conservative guess on to the show and has great and civil debates. Conservative callers go to the front of the call line. Compare that to Rush Limbaugh who basically never has guest or rarely allows opposing views or to Sean Hannity who simply shouts people down.

Bottom line keep your mind open, listen to both sides and never assume the issue can be easily defined in terms of black and white.

Why is Mexico and Colombia ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Why is Mexico and Colombia like they are and why is Sweden and canada as they are?

Are you really sure you want to pick Sweden and Canada as your shining examples? I seem to recall that BOTH COUNTRIES just threw out their Liberal Governments recently.

Posted by: James Cloninger


That's a good thing. That means they are true democracies and their countries will be stronger for it. I bet they keep their main government institutions like socialized medicine.

James, I would re... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

James,

I would reply but I really don't think you made any significant points. And the ones you did make are either wrong or simply your own unsupported innuendo.

Per pupil spending is declining not increasing as far I understand it. So you'll need to back that claim before I'd believe.

As for the Great Depression. you guys are getting really good at the blame game but the fact is that it occurred after 25 years of Republican dominance, de-regulation and laissez faire policies.

A lot of the other stuff you said we agree on. Oh and who was it that took social security off budget????

Henry, I agree, Muirgeo isn... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

Henry, I agree, Muirgeo isn't worthy of the gunk on your sister's shoe. The military put their lives on the line for even the stupidest son of a bitch like Muirgeo, and he has the audacity to complain that they get good travel, like it's some kind of damn corporate perk. F'n idiot, as we all know by this and his other posts.

I do like Imperial beer; I was in the Tamarindo area, typical tourist a couple of years ago. But, Nica beer, Victoria, is awesome, too. I think the beer is better there because it's lighter for the hot weather. Or, maybe it's better because I felt so hot down there and needed a cold one.

If you ever happen to find yourself in Nicaragua, let me know, I can hook you up with some great folks there. Drivers, guides, etc. Lowest crime rate in Latin Am, believe it or not. The people actually like Norte Americanos!

As for the Great Depress... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

As for the Great Depression. you guys are getting really good at the blame game but the fact is that it occurred after 25 years of Republican dominance, de-regulation and laissez faire policies.

We don't have laissez-faire capitalism here anymore, so again, your trying to compare today to then is poor.

First...we need to make ... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

First...we need to make lobbying basically illegal. An indirect passage of money from a Corporation to a lobbyist to a politician IS NOT free speech....its bribery and influence peddling.

So, presenting your views ISN'T free speech? Is it "bribery" any more than "if you don't do this, I'll have my people not vote for you"?

The First Amendment --- she is a cruel mistress.

We need single payer health care. We are the only developed nation with out it. We pay over $10,000 a year for health insurance and other countries pay $5,000 and have better outcomes.

Except they DON'T have better outcomes. Why do you think so many foreign leaders come HERE for medical aid when they have a problem? Do you think waiting lists for heart surgery is a good thing?

By the way, those jobs in the FDR programmes were, you know, low-skilled labour jobs...you know, the ones that illegal aliens do today?

Actually, that, too, is a bit of a fallacy. The jobs he created were for skilled artisans, by and large. Low-skilled labor didn't get a lot of FDR.

And, just to show his goodness, states that were "swing" states in elections got many times more benefits than "safe" states. The West received MUCH more federal money than the "safe" South, even though the South was hit much harder.

Revamp malpractice claims dramatically (an OB/GYN can be sued for birth defects EIGHTEEN YEARS after the child was born). Have the government get out of Medicare and Medicaid completely. Nothing will lower prices quicker than that.

We need to drop the rate on social security to 3% and get rid of the cap. This along with rolling the VA medical system, meducare and medicaid together will pay for a single payer system.

Except I like getting major surgeries without waiting 6 months. And I certainly don't trust the gov't to handle my healthcare --- nor do I want my medical files in the possession of gov't bureaucrats.

We need to walk away from GATT, NAFTA and the WTO. Ross Perot was absolutly right. The big sucking sound is happening...our jobs and money are all going overseas never again to be invested in our country and its people.

Jobs, which have been priced outside of the worth of the job, are being lost. That's life. People griped that horse carriage manufacturers would lose their jobs when the cars hit. The zeppelin industry took a huge blow after airplanes became common.

Tariffs need to be re-instituted.

Hint: You know what CAUSED the worldwide Great Depression of the 1930's?

Tarriffs.

The stock market crash was hardly the cause of the problem. The Smoot-Hartley tariff unleashed a tariff war that basically killed off EVERYBODY's economies.

A worse idea has not existed.

Unions need to be empowered not weekened.

I stand corrected. Forced unionization is virulently anti-American (what happened to the Freedom of Choice the left is so big on?) and leads to spiralling labor costs and dramatically reduced productivity.

There is a reason why Europe's economies tend to struggle. France has had double-digit unemployment FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

The power of the unions is one of the key causes. That and the social welfare system.

Eductation has to be prime. We need to invest much more in education. Head Start, day care and and work training programs properly done repay society much more then we invest.

Work training programs are economic boondoggles and always have been. Absolute fiascoes.

And allowing school vouchers will improve education more than throwing more money in the pit will.

College loans need to be easier and college costs need to be less.

Blame the faculty of colleges (who, mind you, tend to be "progressives").

College is vastly overpriced for what you receive. Yes, college costs need to be slashed massively --- but since the college won't do it unilaterally, somebody will have to make them do it.

Which leads to the protests and whining that nobody wants to touch.

Taxes on the wealthy need to be returned to at least the Clinton era rates.

The rich pay a larger percentage of the overall tax burden now than they did under Clinton.

Why do you wish to punish the poor?

But before you disparage my ideas think back to the last time we had policies like now that you advocate and how it ended up in the Great Depression...then remember how FDR instituted policies as I mention and the middle class worker saw his income and security rise substantially.

Which, to be generous, is an out-and-out lie.

FDR did not end the Depression. FDR extended it and made it worse. He basically froze blacks out of jobs (forced unionization + unions refusing to allow blacks = freezing blacks out of jobs). He couldn't get unemployment below 10% UNTIL WORLD WAR II hit. He imprisoned people for doing such DASTARDLY things as charging less to press a shirt than the gov't mandated. He had food destroyed to keep prices high rather than give it to the poor.

FDR did more to hurt the economy than Hoover did.

Next look at all the other third world countries and all the democracies of Europe and the world and ask which have polcies that resemble the republicans and which have policies that resemble what I and many progressives advocate.

State control of the economy? Every ME state has that and you have some IMPRESSIVE misery there.

Cuba? Wow, that place is a goldmine.

Why is Mexico and Colombia like they are and why is Sweden and canada as they are?

Why are Cubans NOW fed less than Cuban SLAVES were back in 1862?

I think they calculate the numbers different.

They do. Their unemployment numbers, by all accounts, are much worse than they reveal.

Europeans take far more time off, retire younger, live longer and never have to be worried about health insurance even when without a job.

It is also increasingly obvious that the gov't cannot maintain their system and will end up defaulting on the "promises" they made.

I'm not sure that's true. I thought spending has gone down. It has in California. But I do know in California per pupil spending is about $4,500

Actually, it ranges between 4,800 and 34,000/yr.

Washington DC, which has the worst system in the country, spends an average of 8,044 per student.

Money isn't the issue. The system is the issue.

And, don't forget that there was no FDIC then either, so when the run upon the banks happened, it was a crushing final blow.

That is not totally accurate, actually. We had laws where a bank could have only one branch and that was it. This led to a total lack of diversity of revenue and when, for example, banks with heavy reliance of farmers had to deal with farmers having massive income disruption, they ALSO went under.

Banks with diversified portfolios didn't have the problem.

Sorry, that doesn't wash. The primary culprit of the Great Depression here was bad stock market practices, with wild speculation and buying on high margins.

Gotta disagree. Bad market practices and policies definitely helped cause the crash --- but the DEPRESSION was largely caused by tariffs choking off trade and plunging the entire world into a massive depression.

He regularly invites Conservative guess on to the show and has great and civil debates. Conservative callers go to the front of the call line. Compare that to Rush Limbaugh who basically never has guest or rarely allows opposing views

An outright lie. Libs are put to the front of the line on Rush's show.

BTW, why complain that Rush won't allow opposing views while praising Olbermann's show, which is markedly worse about that.

Per pupil spending is declining not increasing as far I understand it.

Care to provide a link to back up your incorrect assumption?

As for the Great Depression. you guys are getting really good at the blame game but the fact is that it occurred after 25 years of Republican dominance, de-regulation and laissez faire policies.

It occurred because a tariff war shut off all international trade.

And you ignored that "progressives" ran the WH for most of those 25 yrs. Teddy and Taft were HARDLY conservatives.

And, mind you, early on, FDR ALSO promised laissez-faire programs.
-=Mike

By the way, those jobs i... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

By the way, those jobs in the FDR programmes were, you know, low-skilled labour jobs...you know, the ones that illegal aliens do today?

Actually, that, too, is a bit of a fallacy. The jobs he created were for skilled artisans, by and large. Low-skilled labor didn't get a lot of FDR.

Thanks, Mike, I stand corrected. And, you reiterated several of my points (FDR unemployment and the horrible idea of tarrifs)

Gotta disagree. Bad mark... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Gotta disagree. Bad market practices and policies definitely helped cause the crash --- but the DEPRESSION was largely caused by tariffs choking off trade and plunging the entire world into a massive depression.

I think the Crash was the lynchpin, though events were stacked against the economy for quite sometime, I agree. And the biggest stack before the crash was the tarrifs.

muirego posted:<bloc... (Below threshold)
Mike:

muirego posted:


Can't you guys ever comment with some substance?????

You go first.




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