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Manipulating Voters in Missouri

There's a commercial currently running in Missouri asking to voters to vote against Senator Jim Talent because, as it claims, he doesn't support stem cell research. Mary Katharine calls it emotionally manipulative. It is. Allahpundit calls it shameful and it's that too. Take a look:

Young, beautiful, dewy-eyed, and completely hypothetical people who might, someday, contract an illness or, God forbid, get into a car accident and become paralyzed. What, according to the left wing group the Media Fund, is the only thing that can save them? Stem cell research. It's complete and total manipulation. And it's dishonest.

Jim Talent supports stem cell research. He supports adult and umbilical cord stem cell research, both of which have produced therapies that are working right now to save people's lives. What Senator Talent doesn't support is federally funded embryonic stem cell research. That's a very small, and at this point in time, completely unproductive part of stem cell research that requires life at its very beginnings to be destroyed.

So, I pose this question: what if those who are against federally funded embryonic stem cell research ran an equally manipulative ad asking Missouri to vote against Claire McCaskill because she wants to kill embryos before they have a chance at life. And what if the ad looked something like this:

8%20cell.jpg

Please don't kill me. My life is just beginning. I could be born and grow up to cure AIDS, or diabetes, or Parkinson's disease. Vote against Claire McCaskill because she wants to end my life just as it's beginning in the name of research that has yet to provide a therapy or cure for anyone anywhere.

Manipulative, huh? Those on the left who support federal funding of embryonic stem cell research would be screaming from the mountaintops about how shameful and manipulative it is. Yet, this is exactly what the the Media Fund's anti-Talent ad is doing right now.


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Comments (63)

We need more organizations ... (Below threshold)
Lee:

We need more organizations like ACORN.

Fortunately this ad, if any... (Below threshold)
ted:

Fortunately this ad, if anything, will drive voters AWAY from McCaskill.

Voters are a bit more sophisticated that Dems take them for -- and this ad is a big "turn off".

Moreover, when GOPers see ads like this, it infuriates them even more, driving higher GOP voter turnout!

So, let the Dems run ads like this and spend their $. It only helps Talent.

Lee: "We need more organ... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Lee: "We need more organizations like ACORN."

...whose members are more than willing to break ANY law in order to get the election outcome they feel they deserve.

Lee, I just thought I would help you out and finish your sentence for you. Several ACORN members are currently either in jail or under indictment for election fraud.

Nice bunch to endorse!

The Missouri Stem Cell amen... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

The Missouri Stem Cell amendment is a no-brainer.

The amendment basically says that any stem-cell research allowed under federal law will also be allowed in Missouri. Currently, that includes research on stem cells from human embryos.

The research CAN lead to new cures so the first ad is TRUE but your supposed ad is false because with out the tools of stem cell research no embryo will grow up to find a cure or at best they will be signioficantly hampered from doing so.

It's a mass of cells people...get over it!! Missourians can choose to be progressive and advance medical care or they can choose to be ignorant, superstuitous and conservative.

Yeah, we know the Republica... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

Yeah, we know the Republican party is just dead-set against emotional manipulation.

On the other hand, if you vote for a Democrat, you're voting for another 9/11 -- terrorists will stop fighting us over there and come here. Gays will enter your schools and teach your children the finer points of consensual sodomy.

And now, the Wizbangblog anthem: "Can you say, 'hypocrisy'?"

This is the exact same comm... (Below threshold)
Steve Splinter:

This is the exact same commercial, same actors, same dialogue being run in Virginia against Thelma Drake, a republican congresswoman running for re-election. The only difference is a change of the target.

...whose members are mor... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

...whose members are more than willing to break ANY law in order to get the election outcome they feel they deserve.

Oh yes: will you folks be in Maine to jam the Democrats' get-out-the-vote phone effort again?

This is the exact same c... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

This is the exact same commercial, same actors, same dialogue being run in Virginia against Thelma Drake, a republican congresswoman running for re-election. The only difference is a change of the target.

Why, it's almost as if a single advertising company has been paid to do this. Clearly cheating! How dare they?

Embryonic stem cells are no... (Below threshold)
K:

Embryonic stem cells are not the panacea everyone wants us to believe they are. Take it from someone who teaches about the subject. Adult stem cells show more promise.

On the other hand, if you v... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

On the other hand, if you vote for a Democrat, you're voting for another 9/11 -- terrorists will stop fighting us over there and come here. Gays will enter your schools and teach your children the finer points of consensual sodomy.
------------------------------------------------
I just look at the actions of the Dem party and the liberal left. I found nothing but an intellectual and moral sewage: the dems and the left are engaged in the worst kind of gay bashing with the full support of liberals. Why? Is that hypocrisy?

Did CNN just provide free propaganda for the terrorists? Did the NYT reveal our tracking of the terrorist finance? Did the liberals oppose terrorist surveillance program?

We don't need to manipulate emotion. just look at the facts. Wonder why Pelosi and Reid are not out there campaigning? What do they have to hide?

What a sewage!

Just look at every action a... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Just look at every action and ad and speech of the dems/liberals. You will find constant deception and lying. These people simply cannot be honest about who they are.

It's a mass of cells people... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

It's a mass of cells people.
-----------------------------------
Muerigo, you are simply a mass of cells. You have no intrinsic worth or value as a human being. Is that what you want people to treat you? NO wonder the left doesn't show any outrage towards the terrorists. THis is what I found so despicable about the liberal left: they are so adamant about killing babies, the disables, the elderly. Yet they are making excuse for the terrorists, the crimimals, the killers.

Muerigo, here is the quiz for you: this ad is so dishonest, despicable, and unconsionable that only the liberals can support it. Do you know why?

more-ego: "It's a mass of c... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

more-ego: "It's a mass of cells people...get over it!!"

LoveAmerica Immigrant already commented on this...but it is too indictative of the Left to let is pass by.

Conservatives: they are BABIES
Liberals: they are just a "mass of cells"

I am one of those hypotheti... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

I am one of those hypothetical persons in the ad as I have a chronic condition that may benefit, one day, from stem cell research.

However, even in my shoes, I see this a blatantly misleading. Adult stem cells are the only productive cell lines to date. Fetal cells have been a bust. So, the jury is way out on this one.

Plus, no one is saying you can't use private or state money for fetal cell research. California has funded lots of it.

Very misleading and downright dishonest in my book.

When it comes to murder the... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

When it comes to murder the democ'rats condone it from conception to old age. Euthanasia of everyone over 50 or seriously ill will be their next drive without realizing they will soon be next in line for the shot. Weep for a mass murderering child rapist and try to prevent their execution but murder millions of unborn, but living babies. Not the kind of people I want to know or associate with.


I see the demo'rats have gained a major endorsement from the terrorists organizations worldwide. How many millions of dollars in campaign contributions have they accepted from terrorists organizations starting with CAIR?

Just talked to a friend that is completing 8 years of military service and due for discharge or reenlistment. He was asking for advice since I retired from the military. My advice to everyone in the military is to see what happens Tuesday. If the dim't take over the house and senate, run like hell before the dim's put you in a position to be killed and dragged through the streets. Don't look back for your backup, they will have already cancelled that. Don't enlist and don't reenlist. When the dem's start the draft you can always avoid it. Hell they've done declared you are all stupid so that should excuse you from military service. The Rangel draft will require at least two years of college to be elegible for the military to prevent too many 'poor' people from serving.

Muerigo, here is the quiz f... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Muerigo, here is the quiz for you: this ad is so dishonest, despicable, and unconsionable that only the liberals can support it. Do you know why?

Posted by: LoveAmerica Immigrant

Hmm let me guess....is it because I hate babies, cripples and old people or because I love terrorist, criminals and murderers?

The most difficult thing for me is babies of terrorist. I hate babies but love terrorist so I'm torn about terrorist babies. Should I love them or hate them? I just don't know. Then sometimes terrorist get old (if they don't blow themselves up first) and then with my hate for old people what do I do? Do I love an old terrorist or hate them for being old. Life is so confusing. Now murderers who kill babies and old people and cripples ..them I like the best. They make it easy being the baby hating terrorist loving person I am.

Another thing I'm confused about is when a terrorist blows some one up and makes them a crippled. I like terrorist but then it bothers me when they go making cripples...whom I hate. Anyway I'm sure you can all see the dilemma it is to be me thanks to LoveAmerica Immigrant bringing out my real situation.

Astigafa, get your lies str... (Below threshold)

Astigafa, get your lies straight. The GOP phone-jamming scandal happened here in New Hampshire in 2002, not Maine. Several are in jail for it right now -- and rightly so.

J.

muirgeo: "Anyway I'm sur... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

muirgeo: "Anyway I'm sure you can all see the dilemma it is to be me thanks to LoveAmerica Immigrant bringing out my real situation."

The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

This as has been used in at... (Below threshold)
Diane:

This as has been used in at least one of Indiana's congressional districts (Incumbent Chocola-R).

I find the commercial well done. However, it amuses because it implies Chocola, Talent, etc. who are not doctors/scientists have no right to vote against funds for embryonic cell research; but a teen-ager, a mother, & a very young child (all non-doctors/non-scientists) are allowed to convince the public we all need to vote for gov't funding for embryonic research.

And what if the ad... (Below threshold)
jpe:
And what if the ad looked something like this:

I strongly urge the GOP to run this ad that shows what a bunch of nutcases they are. The voters deserve the truth.

Muiergo, Since you ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Muiergo,
Since you ask, I will try to explain to you again. As Mitchell pointed out, the adult stem research have been showing real results so far. Embryonic stem cell research hasn't born fruits yet. It is unconsionable to lie to sick people and their families that a cure is coming and we only need FEDERAL money to do it. This is downright dishonest and despicable.

This is another example of the passionate actions of liberals: they fight hard for abortion (killing babies - just a homework for you: find a liberal friend who is pregnant, then you can ask her how her "mass of cells" is doing), embryonic stem cells (destroying embryonic babies again), euthanasia (killing the disabled and the elderly). They are passionate and willing to fight to kill the young/the old/the weak. Yet they try to make excuse for the terrorists, the criminal killers. Heck they even try to make excuse for Saddam Hussein.

That 's why the liberal left is in the moral sewage.

LoveAmerica Immigrant,... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

LoveAmerica Immigrant,

I admire how sometimes you can be still cordial after the commie morons act and say like they usually do. That is a forte of yours, and you would make a great person to have in the foreign service for America (in a consulate or embassy).

As far as your talking to muirgeo, as I said yesterday, I am thankful that he helps me do what Jim Valvano recommends we do everyday to have a successful life -- one of those is to have your emotion moved to cause you to cry each day. And I cry often after muirgeo's posts because it''s so hilarious or because I am so sad that a person could be so misled. Thank you, muirgeo, for affecting my emotions often.

muirgeo: "Anyway I'm sure y... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

muirgeo: "Anyway I'm sure you can all see the dilemma it is to be me thanks to LoveAmerica Immigrant bringing out my real situation."

The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

Posted by: Justrand


Come on Justrand...admit it...that was a funny post.

And I cry often after muirg... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

And I cry often after muirgeo's posts because it''s so hilarious or because I am so sad that a person could be so misled. Thank you, muirgeo, for affecting my emotions often.

Posted by: nehemiah


Nehemiah,

Do you really cry for me? If so that's good because that means you are capable of a deep and platonic discussion. Try me...I'm seriously dying for some deep discussion and its very hard to find it on any of these conservative blogs. The discussion almost instantly becomes a flame war and indeed I do enjoy that as well since my flames are much hotter...not to mention fact and logic based.

Lets start with what you think I'm misled about? A little about me first. I'm an atheist by my own definition, my morality is guided pretty much by my love for my 2 daughters, everything I do has to have an eye towards what's best for their future and I am daily moved by the enigma of nature and our very existence.

Basically I'm a Secular Humanist and their affirmations closely coincide with my beliefs;

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=affirmations

Anyway let me know if you really want to talk.

Being a "secular humanist" ... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

Being a "secular humanist" means you can make it up as you go along. That's pretty much what I see in your posse's postings here.

And you don't have to be an overly devout Christian, Jew, Hindu etc. to believe there are some intrinsically important moral values that can't be compromised in life. That's really what Christianity means to me, at least.

In reality, you stand for nothing but yourself as a "secular humanist."

Muirego, Let 's hav... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Muirego,
Let 's have some deep discussion then. Since you are a secular humanist, where does your love for your 2 daughters come from? Are they merely product of your chemical reactions? You and your daughters are nothing but masses of cells. Maybe you have more cells now compared to the embryos, but still you are nothing but masses of cells. That should be part of your secular humanist creed.

I know for a fact that Muir... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

I know for a fact that Muirego's brain is a very, very small "clump" of cells. That they are so small, we should be able to do stem cell research on them, no?

The lowlings did go to jail... (Below threshold)
Robert:

The lowlings did go to jail for the phone jammimg shceme.
Just like the lowlings who took the blame for torture at Abu Ghraib.

Fish rot from the head down, not the republican party.
I think it has something to do with fish having brains in their head.

Come on Justrand...admit... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Come on Justrand...admit it...that was a funny post.

I'll admit it for him. It was funny!

LoveAmerica Immigrant,<b... (Below threshold)
Brian:

LoveAmerica Immigrant,
I admire how sometimes you can be still cordial after the commie morons act and say like they usually do. That is a forte of yours, and you would make a great person to have in the foreign service for America

I guess this passes for "cordial" on the right:

I just look at the actions of the Dem party and the liberal left. I found nothing but an intellectual and moral sewage ...

What a sewage!
...

You have no intrinsic worth or value as a human being.
...

That 's why the liberal left is in the moral sewage.
...

Liberals will be happy to swim in the moral sewage with the Dems.
...

You keep confirming my conclusion about the intellectual and moral sewage of the liberal left.
...

Anyway, the point stands that liberals are happily swimming in the moral sewage with the Dems.
...

these liberals will be swimming the sewage of racism, bigotry, ACLU-NAMBLA, pornography, Clinton etc.
...

Many thanks again for confirming my point about the moral sewage of the left.

Well, one thing you can say is that his message is consistent.

Flashback to political medi... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Flashback to political media ads, circa late 2004...

Young, beautiful, dewy-eyed, and completely hypothetical people who might, someday, [get attacked by terrorists]. What, according to the [right] wing group the [Republicans], is the only thing that can save them? [Reelecting George Bush]. It's complete and total manipulation. And it's dishonest.

Hmmm....finally we find out... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Hmmm....finally we find out who LoveAmerica really is!!! He's Ralph Kramden!!!! Reborn from his job in the sewers!!!

Thank you so much Brian!!!

I think it is obviously man... (Below threshold)

I think it is obviously manipulative and therefore not an effective ad. On the other hand, Corker in neighboring TN closed with a really fabulous ad. We have all the latest ads in the "polical ad" archive over at RightLinx if anyone is interested, except we are one day behind.

Give me a break - that's no... (Below threshold)
Timmy:

Give me a break - that's not manipulitive.

And even if it is even remotely manipulitive, that isn't half as bad as being backwards and against stem cell research because theoretically, in 9 months those cells COULD be a person.

"On the other hand, if you ... (Below threshold)
Timmy:

"On the other hand, if you vote for a Democrat, you're voting for another 9/11 -- terrorists will stop fighting us over there and come here. Gays will enter your schools and teach your children the finer points of consensual sodomy" - says the redneck hillbilly while playing his banjo on his front porch of his broken down delapidated house.

.....there are some intrins... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

.....there are some intrinsically important moral values that can't be compromised in life. That's really what Christianity means to me, at least.

In reality, you stand for nothing but yourself as a "secular humanist."

Posted by: Mitchell at November 4, 2006 03:00 PM

Mitchell I think we got that covered;

We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.

We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.

Great line....Liberal dems ... (Below threshold)
dickdee:

Great line....Liberal dems are in the 'moral sewage'!!! Ranks right up there with 'stuck on stupid'! Muirgeo is full of crap...spouting those righteous values while undermining them at every turn. He be brother to Dean, Kerry, Orca, Pelosi, Murtha, and Dingy Harry. I'm now going to vote, and will talk at least 5 others into following my lead. And don't worry, after I tell them about the leftist dems and their diversions we'll have another small group to defeat these godless people. The Republican hordes are massing....onward! Hey, muirgeo, I don't think you will want to be in the way...you might end up looking as haggard as Cindy 'the hag' Sheehan. The woman known to disrespect her own son's honor. Her conscience will melt her in the end.

The problem is that Muirego... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

The problem is that Muirego is in charge of identifying and applying these "morals" unfettered by any higher power. Foolish men have been trying it for ages, and they always raise themselves up above others, and God.

Brian, your point is . . .?

For those of you liberals w... (Below threshold)

For those of you liberals who think that Amendment 2 is no big deal, you need to understand that the language on the ballot is utterly deceptive. The actual amendment allows human clonging, and writes governmnt funding into the Missouri constitution.

Ask yourselves this: If there were any promise to embryonic stem cells, wouldn't private funding be all over this?

It ISN'T, because the promise isn't there. It's a false hope.

Most of the funding for Amendment 2 has come from two people from Kansas City--$28 million worth. They founded a cancer research center. If the promise were there for embryonic stem cells, don;t you think they'd have no trouble attracting private resources--instead of needing to do this shell game with the Missouri voters?

I've blogged extensively on this at Hang Right Politics. This amendment is bad news.

I notice that Brian and Hug... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

I notice that Brian and Hugh cannot challenge any facts to show that the liberal left is in the intellectual and moral sewage.

The fact that no liberals dare to condemn this despicable, dishonest, unconsionable ad is simply another proof of their moral sewage. Brian was the loudest to demand Hastert resignation. Where is he now wrt Reid and Webbs? I am not surprised because Brian is willing to swim in the intellectual and moral sewage of the Dems. THat 's why they keep defending a despicable liar like Kerry and have guys like Carter, Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan in their party.

altruism, integrity, honest... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility
------------------------------------------------
How can you support the liberal left and the Dem party where their mode of operation is dishonesty and deception. They are the home of modern racism, anti-semitism, pornography, ACLU-NAMBLA, anti-Americanism (moore, sheehan, carter, clinton), gay-bashing ....

Let 's go back to the deep ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Let 's go back to the deep discussion with Muerigo: where do those values come from? Are they a matter in the eyes of the beholder? If someone is simply masses of cells that accidentally here on this earth, then what is the purpose of being altruistic, honest, responsible ...? The only rational purpose is for self-preservation. If you can get away with being mean/wicked/evil to maximize your accidental existence, then what is wrong with that? What is wrong with what Hitler and Stalin did? They could get away with mass killing as long as it satisfied their own selfish desire and they can manage their own survival?

Damn, that was an awsome ad... (Below threshold)
John:

Damn, that was an awsome ad! I hope they run that as much as possible.

Just so you all know, we don't go around murdering babies just to get embryonic stem cells.

If you're really up in arms about this, shouldn't you be picketing the fertility clinics?

The castoff, the waste, from these procedures are what we're talking about as our raw material.

We're not asking for a single human being to be conceived just to support our research. But we could save lives.

Isn't that important?

John

JOhn, That was an e... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

JOhn,
That was an example of cheap rhetoric. Adult stem cells have produced a LOT of results already. In England, they were just able to grow human liver from umbiblical cord stem cells. Why don't liberals call for more funding for adult stem cell research? Embryonic stem cells do not produce any result yet!

It is despicable and unconscionable to lie to the sick and their families about the cure from embryonic stem cells. Besides this is utterly dishonest. So you either don't really know what you are talking about or you are truly in the moral sewage with the dems for defending such a dishonest, despicable, and unconsionable ad. I am not surprise if you are a liberal since I don't expect much intellectually and morally from liberals in any case.

BTW, I don't believe what t... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

BTW, I don't believe what the liberals say any more. They have been caught so many times already. Just give you an example: the communists said that they care about the poor. But in practice, they killed the poor en mass. Liberals condemn gay-bashing, now they openly practice it. They condemn sexual harrassment, yet defend Clinton. Too many examples of their hypocrisy and dishonesty already. So liberals ' words are of no value to me. Their actions show their true color.

LoveAmericaImmigrant,... (Below threshold)
John:

LoveAmericaImmigrant,

I can field that question... You asked;

"Let 's go back to the deep discussion with Muerigo: where do those values come from? Are they a matter in the eyes of the beholder? If someone is simply masses of cells that accidentally here on this earth, then what is the purpose of being altruistic, honest, responsible ...? The only rational purpose is for self-preservation. If you can get away with being mean/wicked/evil to maximize your accidental existence, then what is wrong with that? What is wrong with what Hitler and Stalin did? They could get away with mass killing as long as it satisfied their own selfish desire and they can manage their own survival?"

Altruistic, honest, and responsible behaviors, when in ballance, over the long run and on average help insure the survival of your offspring, your family, and your social unit. This helps you pass along your genes to future generations who also inherit these traits.

Selfish, deceitful and irresponsible behaviors may benefit you in the short term. They are not wideley valued by society, and they limit your longevity and mating privilages, which means that you can pass your genes, but your opportunities may be limited.

Stalin was devistated by the death of his first wife. Any love for humanity died with her. Hitler, as you know was taken at great cost. The selfish, decietful, and irresponsible behaviors are self destructive as in the case of Stalin, or something that society is willing to expend great energy to stamp out, as in the case of Hitler.

Currenly, about 5 percent of the male population shares psychopatic traits. The other 95 percent play nice because they bear the genes that favor this behavior.

Oh, by the way, people like Hitler get away with seizing control of government because enough people don't stand up early enough and ask questions of their elected officials. Vote for oversite, restore habeus corpus, demand checks and ballances... Ah, you know.

John

I notice that Brian and ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

I notice that Brian and Hugh cannot challenge any facts to show that the liberal left is in the intellectual and moral sewage.

And I notice that you cannot challenge any facts to show that the right is in the intellectual and moral sewage.

The fact that no liberals dare to condemn this despicable, dishonest, unconsionable ad

Prove that it is dishonest and unconsionable.

Brian was the loudest to demand Hastert resignation.

No I wasn't, you liar.

Where is he now wrt Reid and Webbs?

Same place I was before, you liar.

Hey, LoveAmericaImmigrant</... (Below threshold)
John:

Hey, LoveAmericaImmigrant

Try to keep up.

I never discussed adult vs embryonic stem cells. I think we should try 'em both.

What's with all that ranting communism, gay bashing, clinton stuff...?

That's really not on topic is it? Are you feeling OK?

John

John, Let 's start ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

John,
Let 's start from a secular humanist assumption. I am simply a mass of cells. I am an accident here on earth. My life has no inherent meaning. When I am dead, I am gone. So the ultimate purpose of my life is to maximize my pleasure since my existence is accidental. Why should I care about offspring? What 's the point of having children? More burden in my accidental life. Having children to satisfy some need for "love" which is nothing but a chemical reaction. Why should I care about my offspring? THe only rational response is to care about my own survival and pleasure in this accidental life. This is simply the logical consequence of secular humanist assumption. I only try to be nice, responsible mainly for self-preservation so that other masses of cells won't kill me or inflict pain on me. BTW, what is the point of your existence if you are simply a mass of cells? Is it better off to kill yourself?

What's with all that rantin... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

What's with all that ranting communism, gay bashing, clinton stuff...?

That's really not on topic is it? Are you feeling OK?
------------------------------------------------
Are your brain cells intact? Just try to explain to you why the liberal left is in an intellectual/moral sewage. They are dishonest and their words don't mean anything. Is it that hard for you to understand? Do you need me to explain slowly to you so that you have time to absorb my explanation?


THe ad is dishonest and unc... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

THe ad is dishonest and unconscionable. I explained to you why. I am surprised that you think dishonesty is a good thing. That 's why I wonder whether I need to explain to you slowly again.

LoveAmericaImmigrant.... (Below threshold)
John:

LoveAmericaImmigrant.

Since you asked...


"Let's start from a secular humanist assumption. I am simply a mass of cells. I am an accident here on earth. My life has no inherent meaning. When I am dead, I am gone."

Wrong. Your life has inherent meaning. Your meaning is to pass your genetic material to your offspring.

"So the ultimate purpose of my life is to maximize my pleasure since my existence is accidental. Why should I care about offspring? What 's the point of having children? More burden in my accidental life. Having children to satisfy some need for "love" which is nothing but a chemical reaction. Why should I care about my offspring? THe only rational response is to care about my own survival and pleasure in this accidental life."

No. No species that has thought that way has ever been viable. That's the road to extinction. The fact that we are having this discussion now, indicates that our ancestors did not follow this. Your argument is flawed.


"This is simply the logical consequence of secular humanist assumption."

Well, given that your other two arguments didn't pan out, I think your logic needs examination.

"I only try to be nice, responsible mainly for self-preservation so that other masses of cells won't kill me or inflict pain on me."

Ah, this is in fact true. If you don't play nice in your society, your chances of passing down those "don't play nice" genes become limited. And it can hurt. But the fact that it hurts is more Maslow than Darwin, yes?

"BTW, what is the point of your existence if you are simply a mass of cells? Is it better off to kill yourself?"

Well, now we get back to Maslow. I'm here to self actualize.

Just so you know, I'm a Buddhist. Many of us would consider ourselves to be secular humanists. I do.

I'm also an ordained clergy person as a spiritual humanist.

So... IF you'd like to debate eiether side... I'm your guy.

John

Wrong. Your life has inhere... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Wrong. Your life has inherent meaning. Your meaning is to pass your genetic material to your offspring.
------------------------------------------------
My life simply has no meaning. Why do I need to pass my gene along. Why should I care whether my species extinct or not? What if the human race is extinct? Why does that matter to me? All I care is to maximize the pleasure of my accidental existence on this earth.

Your rambling made no logical sense at all. I am simply a mass of cells from a secular humanist standpoint. I am using the word "meaning" to see whether muirego understands that the word "meaning" is meaningless based on secular humanist assumption. I suggest that you look up Immanuel Kant about meaning and justice. Think through your rambling. I made no sense at all. You just make up words as you go. I have to go to bed now.
If you still don't understand what I said, then I can explain to you tommorrow.

Correction:Think thr... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Correction:
Think through your rambling. It made no sense at all. You just make up words as you go.

THe ad is dishonest and ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

THe ad is dishonest and unconscionable. I explained to you why.

Nice dodge there, sport.

" Vote for oversite, restor... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

" Vote for oversite, restore habeus corpus, demand checks and ballances... Ah, you know."

John:

The checks and balances have always been there. Please remember that the Dems voted for the war in Iraq before they vote against it.

Democrat = Flip Flop

BOT: Why is it so hard for you to understand that some people just don't want their tax dollars spent on certain things. If fetal stem cell research is so terribly important to you and Michael Fox then fund it all you want to in the private sector. BTW: Most of the advances in medicine come from private research, not government funded research, which is just another way for people who can't make it on their own making a living.

Democrat = Tax & Spend

Prove that it is dishonest ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Prove that it is dishonest and unconsionable.
------------------------------------------------
(1) Talent was all for adult stem cell research and PRIVATE embryonic stem cell research. Not to say this is DISHONEST.

(2) Adult stem cells have produced results. Embryonic stem cells haven' produce any results yet. Promising a cure from embryonic stem cells is despicable and unconsionable

(3) Bush already allowd embryonic stem cell line that would be destroyed for embryonic stem cell research already. Pushing for federal funding of new embryonic stem cell research is imposing your view on a large segment of AMercican population that has serious moral concern is intolerant and totalitarian. This is again despicable. In the mean time, adult stem cell research has shown great promise. A decent person would work hard along this line of research to save lives and to preserse the respect for human life.

Brian,
You are simply too intellectually dishonest to acknowledge your own dishonesty. Your continuing defense of this despicabale and dishonest ad is another example of the intellectual and moral sewage of the liberal left.

Your hypocrisy wrt Hastert and Reid/Webb is clear. Only they people who have been drinking/swimming it the moral sewage wouldn't be able to see it.

BTW, it was the democrats w... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

BTW, it was the democrats who voted against funding for adult stem cell research. Fox should have railed against the dems for not funding a line of research that has shown great promise already.


Brian is reduced to dodging and hedging, a common tactic of typical sewage liberals.

LoveAmerica, you stated;</p... (Below threshold)
John:

LoveAmerica, you stated;

"My life simply has no meaning. Why do I need to pass my gene along. Why should I care whether my species extinct or not? What if the human race is extinct? Why does that matter to me? All I care is to maximize the pleasure of my accidental existence on this earth."

Well, if you really feel that way, let's get you some help.

If on the other hand, you're attempting to pose a rhetorical question, I'll answer it in spite of you...

"You" don't need to pass your genes along. Over time, people that don't "need" or care to pass their genes along, won't. If that lack of desire to propigate is strongly inherited, your descendents will eventualy become extinct.

To put it another way, sex feels so good because people that did not enjoy sex did not have much sex, and thus had few offspring. Those that did enjoy sex, and could also compete in other ways for food and resources, had more offspring.

To the extent to which the ability to enjoy sex has a genetic link, those offspring passed on "sexy" genes.

So from a secular standpoint, yeah... You are a mass of cells, but that's not to say that you can't be a worthy, or impressive, or beautiful, or important mass of cells.

That lovley meal you enjoy tonight is just an old dead mass of cells, but that's not to say that it's not delicious. Nothing wrong with being made up of cells.

You do have a purpose. You're here to love, and laugh, adn take care of other people. You're here to teach and learn, and give. You're here to self actualize... to improve yourself. And by doing that to improve others.

Isn't that enough? What else were you expecting out of this life?

John

John, I am not sure... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

John,
I am not sure you really understand the point of the discussion here.

Again, let me explain it slowly again. According to secular humanist creed, human life is an accident and a product of random chance. Your life or my life is simply an accident, a product of random chance. What is the "purpose" and "inherent meaning" of an accident?

That 's the point of the discussion. I am not sure what you mean why we must love, enjoy etc ... We are nothing but biological machines. Your feeling is simply a product of chemical reactions and how reliable is it?

Again, my central question: What is the "purpose" and "inherent meaning" of an accident?

That 's the first point of a deep discussion. Take some time to think through it before you veer off into some peripheral issues which do not make sense at all.

I don't agree with your pre... (Below threshold)
John:

I don't agree with your premise that you are an "accident".

I think you are the end product of millions of years of evolution. You are carefully designed, crafted, taylored.

You are no "accident".

You fit perfectly in your environment.

Your design in fact is brilliant. Accidents don't happen like that.

You are sculpted by millions of years of natural selection. This does not require a maker.

You are a unique, wonderful human being. Express joy. Help others. Be fabulious.

John

The stem cell issue has bee... (Below threshold)
Voice of Reason:

The stem cell issue has been incorrectly framed as a contest between adult and embryonic cells. In reality, the battle is between society and disease.

Adult stem cells have a long and proud history dating back 50 years. It was in 1956 that Dr. E.Donnall Thomas (the "grand daddy" of adult stem cell research) performed the first successful adult stem cell treatment - the bone marrow transplant. He was later awarded the Nobel Prize for his efforts.

But in the political arena, those who purport that we need only adult stem cell research never mention his name. The reason is that by doing so they would likely expose the true scientific perspective of stem cell research.

Dr. Thomas is among the 80 American scientific and medical Nobel laureates who sent a letter to President Bush explaining...

"Some have suggested that adult stem cells may be sufficient to pursue all treatments for human disease. It is premature to conclude that adult stem cells have the same potential as embryonic stem cells -- and that potential will almost certainly vary from disease to disease. Current evidence suggests that adult stem cells have markedly restricted differentiation potential. Therefore, for disorders that prove not to be treatable with adult stem cells, impeding human pluripotent stem cell research risks unnecessary delay for millions of patients who may die or endure needless suffering while the effectiveness of adult stem cells is evaluated."

You can read the entire text here:
http://www.aau.edu/research/StemCell2.21.01.html

It is also important to note that no Nobel Prize winner - not one - opposes embryonic stem cell research. The same is true for medical schools, medical research institutions, disease foundations and patient advocacy groups. [The list is actually quite staggering. 591 encouraged expanding research for hESCs during the U.S. Senate's HR810 debate.]

Adult stem cell research has yielded nine FDA approved therapies and we should remain grateful, but we must also remember that it has been given over 50 years to do so. Human embryonic stem cell research is a mere 8 years old (hESCs were not isolated until 1998). The scientific community agrees that given sufficient time and resources, this area of endeavor is likely to produce remarkable results. In animal models, hESC reserach has ameliorated Parkinson's in apes, repaired damaged brain tissue in the rodent equivalent of multiple sclerosis and fixed nerve fiber and re-grew myelin in rats with severed spinal cords.

Will it work in humans? We won't know until we do the research, but I can assure you it won't work if we don't.

I respect those who object to embryonic stem cell research based upon their ethical or religious beliefs. They are, of course, free to reject any treatments, therapies or cures that may be developed by means they find objectionable. The question is whether or not they should be able to legally restrict research which could lead to making treatments available to others. In this regard, the ad in question does hold a politically relevent and fair message.

Respectfully, a big reason ... (Below threshold)
Jill:

Respectfully, a big reason why embryonic stem cell research is slow to show porgress is becasue of the LACK of funding and loopholes scientists need to go through to carry out their research.

This really is a no brainer folks. Please support this important funding that can help ALL of us in the future.

Scientists in Universities and bio tech companies are want to do research - NOT sit around and figure out how to clone one another..... stop the paranoia and start thinking about ALL of us as we age and get diseases that can be CURED with this research....




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