I love it. Another major tax increase for the working people on the horizon.
Does anyone really believe the super rich dim's will tax the rich? If so I highly recommend an early appointement with a mental health professional. I usderstand they're filling up fast with the BDS crowd who suffered a let down when the conservatives didn't whine and cry but cheered the dim's coming destruction of America.

I think I'm gonna be sick...

The greatest enemy of the middle-class in America is conservatism. Right-wing resistance to making health care affordable for all Americans will help sink their little rowboat in the '08 election.

It's bad medicine, no doubt. But the Republicans were never going to become conservative again without a shakeup like this. America is going to pay dearly for this, but without the loss, we would say goodbye to fiscal conservatism forever.

Let's hope it only lasts two years.

Pelosi, Murtha, Hillary - could we possibly have a more clear indication of the end of the world?

If America's So Great, Where's Our Health Care?

Lack of health insurance kills six times as many Americans each year as 9/11 did.

[snip]

For Joel Segal, it was the day he was kicked out of George Washington Hospital, still on an IV after knee surgery, without insurance, and with $100,000 in medical debt. For Kiki Peppard, it was having to postpone needed surgery until she could find a job with insurance -- it took her two years. People all over the United States are waking up to the fact that our system of providing health care is a disaster.

An estimated 50 million Americans lack medical insurance, and a similar and rapidly growing number are underinsured. The uninsured are excluded from services, charged more for services, and die when medical care could save them -- an estimated 18,000 die each year because they lack medical coverage.

But it's not only the uninsured who suffer. Of the more than 1.5 million bankruptcies filed in the U.S. each year, about half are a result of medical bills; of those, three-quarters of filers had health insurance.

Businesses are suffering too. Insurance premiums increased 73 percent between 2000 and 2005, and per capita costs are expected to keep rising. The National Coalition on Health Care (NCHC) estimates that, without reform, national health care spending will double over the next 10 years. The NCHC is not some fringe advocacy group -- its co-chairs are Congressmen Robert D. Ray (R-IA) and Paul G. Rogers (D-FL), and it counts General Electric and Verizon among its members.

Whine, whine, whine about their taxes, while their fellow Americans die at an annual rate six times that of the 9/11 toll.

Republicans don't care about Americans. They care about themselves and no one else.

Ayn Rand is way cool.

-When you're reading Ayn Rand in High School, that is. Then, you move on.

But hey, what could be better than healthcare being managed by a 3rd-party-for-profit industry?

Do all of you individuals chomping at the bit for socialized medecine have a clue what goes on in Canada and Europe? Or is that what you want? People dying from curable problems on waiting lists? Government needs to do more to get out of the health care business (i.e. getting businesses to stop providing health insurance) not get more involved.

Despite all of the real-world lessons wrought by socialism, some just never learn.

ScrapIron, I'm never quite sure if I should take you seriously or not. I'm about half convinced you're a progressive, mocking the right wing here.

So, Kim your article starts out talking about Hillary's points about trimming the federal deficit, reducing dependence on foreign oil, and improving the image of the United States abroad.

But......

All of those are good things, right? Required, even? Those are all great ideas, aren't they?

That's not really a good lead in, if you're trying to make someone look like a crank.

Americans pay more for the same healthcare than other developed nations. Congress has passed some really bad laws over the last couple of years that funnel OUR money toward the drug companies, and tying the hands of government officials for trying to negotiate volume discounts with drug manufactures.

I don't understand why an older gentleman like ScrapIron would bitch and scream when someone wants to provide better services at a lower cost...

Oh, yeah - wait, I do. ScrapIron is getting his already from the government VA. He's getting much better service than tens of millions of uninsured Americans. He's bennefiting from the government healthcare system, while arguing for denying it to other Americans. For that matter, he's also drawing a government pension which he got after only 20 years of work.

He disgusts me.

So all that screaming about how bad government is, and he's standing at the mailbox every month with his hand out waiting for his prescriptions and his benefit checks.

And you know what?

He earned every dime of it.

What disgusts me is not that he's on the government dole, with government healthcare. What disgusts me is how he spends his "retirement" slapping other people down.

John

How many new hospitals are the democrats going to build and how many additional doctors are they going to graduate? If these things aren't going to happen then "Universal Health Care" will only increase stress on an already stressed system. It's just lovely how people think they can make rules and all the bad side effects just go away.

Basically these people live in a fantasy land. The economy doesn't understand nor follow their fantasy.

Actually Lee, I think republicans can see the socialist health care already in places like Canada and Europe and can see that it costs a whole bunch of money and fails miserably.

But liberals don't care about people and if they are getting proper health care. They just want the money and to stay in power.

VagaBond, and merc,

I'm going to guess that neither of you have a passport, and have done much traveling.

If I'm wrong, please tell me, and tell me where you've been.

John

I found this article interesting. It discusses socialized healthcare (the Canadian model, I know they vary):

It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system. This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance. This is much more expensive than the most comprehensive private health insurance plan.

My suggestion is if you're having problems getting healthcare...pretend you're an illegal alien and you'll get it for free.

We have a whole generation and then some that were raised on "A" for Effort in school and a healthy job market shielding them from the concept of reality over good intentions.

Of course they are going to swallow all the socialist paradise fantasy despite what history has told us.

Lee, When did you have a brain transplant (switch) with a retarded monkey? Name someone that doesn't have healthcare or someone that has died from lack of healthcare. I've hauled thousands of people to the E.R. and not one of them has ever been refused the same care in the E.R. as someone with the best health care money can buy, and all that needed hospital care have been admitted. Not one person has ever been refused transport due to lack of insurance or ability to pay by any ambulance service in this area.

Social services takes care of those who don't have any type of coverage and they make out better than the workers who pay for their health care. Thousands are walking in to get free flu shots while I pay $20-25 for mine, but that's fair to. I hear all of the rumors on the antique MSM outlets but that is just what it is, rumors. Never facts.

If what you claim was even 10% true there would be dead bodies stacked on every street. Even burial is free if you need it.

The poor who are on Medicare have the best medical care and prescription program available in the world.

Maybe medical care isn't available in some of the large cities ran totally by the liberal dim's, but why anyone lives there is beyond me. The liberal politicians steal more money than they spend on the poor. .

I guess we are just better people in middle America and take better care of the our citizens than the so called leaders in your area.

Put away your crying towel, if you can afford the 50% + increase in federal taxes which will be required, I can. Health care will never see the money, it will just disappear in the dim's established oversight and administration offices.

I have been to Italy, Greece, Canada, Amsterdam and Scotland....not necessairly in that order. oops...forgot Tunasia.

Herlder,
That $5000 is a hidden cost, however, like most taxes assesed before hand. They never had that money in their hands and then had to give it to the govt. There would be more opposition to all taxes if folks had to pull out their checkbooks once a quarter or so and pay out to the govt rather than have the govt deduct "off the top"

John,

If you yourself had a passport and a little more experience outside the US you would realize that the vaunted Canadian universal health care system has a substantial set of problems.

In fact if you had been in Canada last month you would have seen the following two headlines inside the Globe and Mail.

1. "Clement defends waiting-times strategy"
2. "Here's progress - very long wait times are now just long"

If you did a little research you could also find and article in bmj (June, 1999) that started with this paragraph

Faced with long waiting lists for cancer treatment, the government of Quebec province, Canada, plans to send patients to the United States at a cost of $US15000 (£9375) each. About 1200 patients are waiting for radiotherapy, 500 in Montreal alone, some for as long as five months.

And you would know about the Canadian court decision forcing the government to allow private health insurance because the government healthcare monopoly was negatively impacting the human rights of Canadian citizens.

Canada can send patients to the US when the Canadian universal health care system starts failing, the US does not have that luxury.

I like Heralder's post, because he's actualy got some numbers to consider. He gives numbers for Canada, but not for the US. Canada's may seem high, until you look at our numbers.

"Health care is one of the most expensive items of both nations' budgets. The United States spends more per capita on health care than the government does in Canada. In 2003, the government of Canada spent $1886 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government spent $2548.[11]

Despite the American government paying more per capita, private sources also pay far more for health care in the United States. In Canada an average of $630 dollars is spent annually by individuals or private insurance companies for health care, including dental, eye care, and drugs. In the United States this number is $2719. In 2001 the United States spent in total 13.6% of its annual GDP on health care. In Canada only 9.5% of the GDP was spent on health care." *

* Wiki...

John

John

I have a passport and have been traveling for years. Such garden spots as Australia, Japan, Korea, France, England, Ireland, Mexico and Canada. I even have relatives from Canada.

Some of them come here and pay for their expensive medical procedures because they can't get them done in a timely manner in Canada. Many patients suffer and die each year in Canada from waiting their turn. This is not a unique problem for Canada, it happens quite a bit in government managed health care, because it is even less responsive to the consumer then a private organization. You don't think so? Try getting something resolved through Medicare, just try, because you could die or be very old before it is actually resolved.

Making Health Care affordable by decree will not make it so, it will only make it less available.

While I share the desire for a more affordable health care system, the solution is not government managed health care, it does not work. It will not work because there is no incentive for the people controlling it to respond to problems, much the same as any other bureacracy created to solve a problem. Think your local City License division, State Department of Motors Vehicles, or any Federal Agency that you deal with regularly. How responsive are they really and how long do you wait for a response? Translate that into a health care system and wait for the nightmare.

I see Lee is still a moron though, no disappointment there. . .

TJIT,

In Canada, you're talking about universal coverage, and implying that it's unacceptable because some people may have to "wait".

In this country, if you don't have health care coverage, you don't "wait", you just don't get ANY.

You also imply the common misperception that all Canadians are stuck in waiting lines. Not so. If you have the cash, you can get whatever healthcare you desire, and whatever insurance you like.

Canada provides a safety net that people can't fall through, not a lid.

I also think you'll find there are more state agencies and seniors that are interested in getting INTO Canada for cheaper medicines, than Canadians trying to get out for "cheaper" medical care in the US.

John

I'm curious.. John, Lee, etc.

Do you believe that health care is a right ?

John,

Your description of Canada makes it sound exactly like the US.

Canada just has bigger waiting lists and more government spending. With a fraction of the improvements in future medical care that are being developed in the US.

And of course healthcare is cheaper in Canada, the government does not pay for developing new healthcare technology and they ration and restrict access to healthcare

Canada's healthcare is cheaper because they prescribe Aspirin for every ailment. After all, how much does aspirin cost anyway?

What John is quoting is the personal cost separate from taxes paid to support the system.

Trust me, doctors don't volunteer to show up to work for free, Nurses don't change bedpans out of the kindness of their hearts and medical companies don't donate supplies for free as a matter of course.

SCSIwuzzy, good point.

John,

I try to stay away from Wikipedia. Nonetheless, in the article I linked to, I only quoted a small part of it. Check out the link, there's more information there to be considered.

John,

Also from my article:

The most visible consequence of socialized medicine in Canada is in the poor quality of services. Health care has become more and more impersonal. Patients often feel they are on an assembly line. Doctors and hospitals already have more patients than they can handle and no financial incentive to provide good service. Their customers are not the ones who write the checks anyway.

No wonder, then, that medicine in Quebec consumes only 9 per cent of gross domestic product (7 per cent if we consider only public expenditures) compared to some 11 per cent in the United States. This does not indicate that health services are delivered efficiently at low cost. It reflects the fact that prices and remunerations in this industry are arbitrarily fixed, that services are rationed, and that individuals are forbidden to spend their medical-care dollars as they wish.

All of north America, Central America and SOuth America.
UK, France, Spain, Germany, Austria, Italy, Greece, Isreal, Sweden, Norway, Finland (has it all), Ireland, Egypt, Kenya, South Africa, Belgium.
I hope to visit Poland, Ukraine and India before this decade is out.

How about you, Johny cakes?

Seriously, if people wanted health care, they would pay for it instead of buying their IPod's, Flat screen TV's, high speed internet, Play Station 3's, etc. etc. Lee, I hardly think knee surgery is life threatening. I had my ACL replaced but I was able to do my job before and after. The average cost for a year of Medical Insurance is around 2500 bucks. Most young people don't feel it's worth the cost because they are young and healthy. If I had to choose between paying for my own plan or getting taxed to have big governement mandate my plan, I would opt for freedom of choice and pay for my own and skip the tax.

This may just be the plan - assuming we have a plan, that is.

The Great Unwashed simply will not believe that the Donks will be worse than the Repubs unless they see for themselves. And Nancy and the Clown Brigade are wasting no time demonstrating their fecklessness.

In Mao's phrase: "Agonizing Reappraisal"

In this country, if you don't have health care coverage, you don't "wait", you just don't get ANY.

And to that I call "bullshit".

Ask anyone in the medical field.

I spent a month in an American hospital this year (1 week in, 3 in and out), and I was one of the few people on my floor with any private health insurance.
They got the same care and the same meds that I did. The difference, at the end of the day was that I got to choose my outpatient options (so long as my insurance covered them).
In the ER, I had to wait behind people with the sniffles who use the hospital as primary care, while one of my internal organs ruptured. A young man behind me had his appendix burst, and had to wait as long as I did, if not longer.
Don't tell me the uninsured don't get medical care.

I thought Hillary was dead set determined to overhaul the Electoral College:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/11/10/politics/main248645.shtml

Yeah, Hill .., health care, electoral college, whatever, you worthless tramp.

Yakkity yakkity yak.

If her legislative history means anything, she can bark socialized medicine all she likes, it's either a pipe dream, a hollow promise, or a smoke screen.

I don't trust her enough to even be worried.

I had a throat infection last year that was pretty horrible. At this point I was between jobs and didn't have insurance. I went to a walk in clinic in Brooklyn and paid $75 dollars for my checkup and about $25 for the antibiotics prescribed.

Not bad. If I had a serious injury, I'm not sure what my options are, but for common issues, there are many.

SCSIwuzzy,
From being a merchant marine engineer...
S.Korea, Japan, Russia, Guam, Saipan, Costa Rica, Mexico, USA, Belgium, Turkey, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Bahrain, UAE, Djibouti...

Enough for your list? ;-)

Oh, and I'm on Blue Cross/Blue Shield, affordable, and US. I wouldn't have it any other way (although I used to be on Kaiser Permanente, another good HMO, due to the doctors making the medical decisions, not business "suits").

Frankly, I don't have the faith in our government to administer a safe, reliable and efficient healthcare system. It all sounds so nice to just go to the doctor when you're sick and not worry about the money, but the pitfalls and snags will be no better and may be worse. The baby boomers could soon very well deliver a crushing blow to what will be a relatively new system seeking to avoid all the "bad parts" all those who went before us have faced.

If you think this system is bad, wait until it falls prey to the massive abuse that, again, I don't have faith in our government controlling.

And if you want to just talk money: Every state has healthcare options available to those who truly can't afford insurance, especially their children. That people don't take advantage of these programs already is often ignorance of them. National health care will only shift the economic burden from the state to the federal level and the states are certainly not going to lower their tax rates when the burden is no longer theirs. Therefore - higher taxes for everyone.