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Talk Of Plans For Failure

I watched the morning news today with a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. The "anchor," if you can call Diane Sawyer that, was a little too happy to report all the talk of the possibility of imminent troop withdrawals now that Democrats won control of Congress. They also reported on the upcoming report from Baker's group and a bit on Rumsfeld's replacement, Gates. The information Bob Owens has compiled at Confederate Yankee about Robert Gates gives me even more reason for concern. Read it all.

Owens also quotes James Lewis at The American Thinker.

The Baker commission seems to be doing a lot more than just re-thinking Iraq. It appears to be copiously leaking a Vietnam-type cut-and-run plan that will leave the Gulf far more dangerous than it is now. The Vietnam model looks like a "face-saving" retreat by the United States--just like that one that left Vietnam a Stalinist prison state with tens of thousands of boat people fleeing and dying, and next door in Cambodia, two or three million dead at the hands of Pol Pot.

Baker's press leaks seem designed to test public reaction to the cut-and-run plan.

Conservatives have lost Congress for the next two years, but acquiescing in a disastrous retreat from Iraq would be the worst of all possible worlds. It would empower all the most destabilizing actors: Ahmadinejad, his dangerous guru Ayatollah Yazdi, and Moqtada el Sadr, who wants to turn Iraq into another Khomeinist state.

Withdrawal would embolden Hamas and Hezbollah and weaken Iran's natural enemies--the Sunni Arab countries, including the Sunni Gulf states. In Afghanistan, the Taliban would be reinvigorated, and in Pakistan the Al-Qaida-supporting elements in the military and secret services might try--again--to launch a coup. A successful Al Qaeda coup in Pakistan would give Islamofascists not just one, but two nuclear-armed states.

The US held on in Vietnam for fourteen years. We gave Vietnamization a chance. The 12 million Iraqis who voted for parliamentary parties deserve a chance to see their elected government work.

Not long ago I wrote about how a lot of attention was paid to the way the President had conducted the war, but practically none was paid to how those who opposed the war had conducted themselves and how that might have affected the situation in Iraq. I got a lot of email from liberals saying I was trying to blame Democrats for Bush's failures and that nothing they had done had any impact on the mission in Iraq. They are dead wrong. Public opinion and support is incredibly important when waging war and I think it can be seen now quite dramatically in the talk of plans to cut and run. Democrats are not in power yet, but just from the support gleaned through their success at the polls, corresponding action is being discussed seriously. God help us if their plan for failure in Iraq, and it cannot be described in any other way, is enacted.

Update: I referred to the "Brady" plan when I meant the Baker plan but have now corrected it.

Update II: Read Bob Owens' plea to the President to recommit to the effort in Iraq.


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Comments (68)

God help us if the... (Below threshold)
Old Coot:
God help us if their plan for failure in Iraq, and it cannot be described in any other way, is enacted.

God may have already helped by giving liberals enough rope to finally hang themselves, along with their enablers in the MSM. Perhaps I'm trying to make lemonade out of lemons, but letting them play in the sandbox (pun intended) for a year or so just might result in a solidified conservative majority sooner rather than later.

The ironic thing about want... (Below threshold)
John F Not Kerry:

The ironic thing about wanting us to get out of Iraq now is that it will lead to a nuclear bomb being dropped by us over there sooner rather than later, in response to being hit by someone harder than we got hit on 9/11. Don't worry, I won't say "I told you so" when it happens.

Lorie, you are dead right. ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Lorie, you are dead right. Democrats crave another Vietnam and it looks like they may produce it. Mark Steyn has a good coulmn about his visit with the President and covers this topic. It ends with this quote from Rumsfeld - "You can make a case that the centre of gravity of the war is in the United States," said Donald Rumsfeld. "I mean, you can't lose it militarily over there. The only place you can lose it is here." Just like Vietnam.

Steyns's column is here:

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/world/article.jsp?content=20061113_136254_136254d

I stayed home today to wait... (Below threshold)

I stayed home today to wait for a plumber and caught more CNN than usual. One of the reports was saying.
"Is any option too late in Iraq, even if we send in MORE troops?"
Talk about CYA, incase the liberal plans fail.

"The 12 million Iraqis w... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"The 12 million Iraqis who voted for parliamentary parties deserve a chance to see their elected government work."

The majority of Iraqis want us out of their country -- and they want us out within the next year.

Conservatives suggesting that they care about the Iraqi people? That they are motivated by the best interest of Iraqis? What a joke. What a sad, sick joke.

Lee, to quote Chandler, cou... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

Lee, to quote Chandler, could your link be more slanted?

To those who stayed home (d... (Below threshold)
RM:

To those who stayed home (did not vote) and to those who voted as "reprimand"; you bit off your collective noses to spite your faces; "free country = your choice..." and because it, as we "speak", still a "free country", I must say; "SHAME ON YOU!" In my opinion ya'll not only put yourselves in harm's way, you have dragged the "rest of us" along with you. I am sooo not a happy nor optimistic camper. What?! were ya'll thinking?! "Our" future is now! Consequences could be grim, perhaps we don't have 2 years to "fix it". At this writing, I'm quite concerned and pondering the ? "Where will my family be safe?!" Rumsfeld was "our" Military's staunchest supporter and he "resigned" (yeah right.) I do not think all is well. 1st hint was when President Bush apologized for saying, "Bring it on..." I was stunned then. And I am very concerned by the election results and how the tide is turning. (damn just damn).

While Baker is suspiciously... (Below threshold)

While Baker is suspiciously close to the old Realpolitik gang from the GHWB Administration, he isn't necessarily a part of them. He isn't stupid, either. He has already mentioned what an asinine idea "partitioning" Iraq is.

Given that Bush obviously is privy to the Commission's workings, and chose to nominate Gates to replace Rumsfeld, we can assume the President has already bought into the yet-unpublished conclusions.

Would Dubya be so willing to bug out of Iraq? I doubt it. I hope not.

Democrats clearly are, though.

Mark Steyn's Sunday column ... (Below threshold)

Mark Steyn's Sunday column in the Chicago Sun-Times is the sharpest piece of honest writing I've read in months. Make the time to read it carefully.

Not to be outdone, the New York Times reveals the answer this morning (see link above). "Democrats Push for Troop Cuts Within Months" says what you think it says. If this article is believable, the Democrats are calling it "Operation Somalia", which is an incredible and revealing use of words.

It's been a hell of a week since the election. Nancy Pelosi is shoving aside execrable Jane Harmon and pushing the execrable Jack Murtha as Majority Leader. Don Rumsfeld had the good sense to resign, just before some German Court accepted a civil suit brought by released terrorists. Harvey Waxman will be capitalizing on his movie-star good looks and taking over as Grand Inquisitor, responsible for concocting an endless parade of phony "getback" investigations targeting every Republican in Washington wearing shoes. Over the weekend, Al-Quaeda, the BBC, the government of Iran all officially congratulated the Democrats for their win.

For the life of me, I can't understand what liberals are so damned happy about. They're about to betray the blood spilled by our troops and abandon the Iraqis all over again. Iraqi militias and terrorists all over the world are doing the Happy Dance and drawing up "redeployment" plans of their own on an accelerated schedule. "Operation Somalia" is right, if not prescient. What mystifies me is that they haven't figured out yet that they will have to bear the accountability for the damage they are about to cause. They're trapped by the very strategy that finally got them the power they sold their souls for and can't back away from it or shove it across the table at the Republicans without losing power in 2008.

Geez, what a world... Funny thing is, I thought I would be angry about all this. I'm not. But you know that funny taste you get in your mouth just before you vomit? Yeah, that one.

One thing about it, if the ... (Below threshold)
radioone:

One thing about it, if the Democrats force US to leave Iraq with the ensuing holocaust, the MSM will still blame the Republicans.

Damn. The link dis... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Damn.

The link disappeared. See Drudge if it's still Monday where you are.

"You can't lose it milit... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

"You can't lose it militarily over there. The only place you can lose it is here." Just like Vietnam... Rumsfeld. That is not very comforting for the thousands of Iraqi families who are losing loved ones. The Iraqi health minister, last week put civilian deaths over the entire 44 months since the U.S. invasion at about 150,000". If the Democrats have a plan for failure' what has Bush's been., a success? Rumsfeld predicted "the US use of force in Iraq at the beginning of the war could last five days, or five weeks, or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."..Try the figure of 44 months again, and we still don't seem anywhere closer, than we started, except for agreeing that Democrat plans to end the conflict which the Republicans created,(ok premptively) would end in failure.

I'm not at all certain how ... (Below threshold)

I'm not at all certain how the left intends to produce a troop withdrawal. Congressd does not have the legal authority to order it. They could refuse to fund the war, but that would be subject to a Presidential veto that the Democrats do NOT have the votes to override.

"Lee, to quote Chandler,... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"Lee, to quote Chandler, could your link be more slanted?"

Could it be slanted any more in favor of the Iraqi people? Probably not.

A new WPO poll of the Iraqi public finds that seven in ten Iraqis want U.S.-led forces to commit to withdraw within a year. An overwhelming majority believes that the U.S. military presence in Iraq is provoking more conflict than it is preventing and there is growing confidence in the Iraqi army. If the United States made a commitment to withdraw, a majority believes that this would strengthen the Iraqi government. Support for attacks on U.S.-led forces has grown to a majority position--now six in ten. Support appears to be related to a widespread perception, held by all ethnic groups, that the U.S. government plans to have permanent military bases in Iraq.

The poll was conducted for WorldPublicOpinion.org by the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) at the University of Maryland and was fielded by KA Research Ltd. / D3 Systems, Inc. Polling was carried out September 1-4 with a nationwide representative sample of 1,150 Iraqi adults.

A large majority of Iraqis--71%--say they would like the Iraqi government to ask for U.S.-led forces to be withdrawn from Iraq within a year or less. Given four options, 37 percent take the position that they would like U.S.-led forces withdrawn "within six months," while another 34 percent opt for "gradually withdraw[ing] U.S.-led forces according to a one-year timeline." Twenty percent favor a two-year timeline and just 9 percent favor "only reduc[ing] U.S.-led forces as the security situation improves in Iraq."


Well, it's been about a wee... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Well, it's been about a week since the country came to its senses. I have resisted the urge to "crow" (my good) for the past week and have instead been just reading the various threads and posts here. Just trying to get a handle on the thinking of those who prowl this site.

What is amazing to me is that the tenor has not changed in the face of reality. I think the loon right must still be in denial. The country voted. The country spoke and the message was clear. Solve Iraq. The loons here go on and on with the same old worn out garbage. You talk as if Iraq is going well. As if the solution is right around the corner. As if there has been no corruption. As if the deaths and the maiming are meaningless. As if Iraq had anything at all to do with the war on terror until this disgraceful administration set up the recruiting offices for terrorists by starting this war.

Now I know many of you believe the "terrorist" "army" is just waiting to load up on their ships and invade us. Kill them there or else is your mantra. Well, again the sane people in the country just don't buy that and they don't buy your silly "cut and run" and "stay the course" sloganeering.

You talk as if it is THE democrats who have to solve the problems there and you forget that it is ultimately Bush's responsibility to figure that out. Great job so far by the way. The dems are not going to cut off the money and those of you who believe that probably believe in space ships too.

You folks used to piss me off. Now I just feel sorry for you.

I feel sorry for us, too, w... (Below threshold)

I feel sorry for us, too, when we have to put up with your nonsense.

"Conservatives suggestin... (Below threshold)
cmd:

"Conservatives suggesting that they care about the Iraqi people?. . .what a sick, sick joke."

Yes, Lee - and you compassionate liberals were so content to let Saddam's rape rooms and plastic shredders deal with them, weren't you? They're all just a bunch of sand ni**ers to your side. Let me guess, too - you've probably got a SAVE TIBET bumper sticker on your car, but if the GOP ever tried to do anything to wrest control of Tibet from out of the Chinese grasp, you'd be first in line to scream about "neocon warmongerers." You're the joke, Lee. You and your whole treasonous party.

"For the life of me I can't understand what liberals are so damned happy about."

They're going to stick it to Bush, bobdog. That's all it has ever been about. As Lee personifies, they don't give a damn about the Iraq people, and they certainly don't give a damn about the soldiers - they're likely creaming their panties over the fact that the unwashed, undereducated killbots are going to run away with their tails between their legs - this is a chance to hurt Bush.

Hurt Bush. That's ALL this has ever been about. But that's the Democrat party for you - born in treason, nursed in murder and perversion and now in power. Like I keep saying -this is your country now, so choke and die, asshats.

Courtesy of Brian on anothe... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Courtesy of Brian on another thread:

BAGHDAD, Sept. 26 -- A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence, according to new polls by the State Department and independent researchers.

In Baghdad, for example, nearly three-quarters of residents polled said they would feel safer if U.S. and other foreign forces left Iraq, with 65 percent of those asked favoring an immediate pullout, according to State Department polling results obtained by The Washington Post.

Everyone knows that those rascals in the State Department are just leftist puppets for the jihadists, right Vagabond?

So the question is -- why are conservatives do dead set on overriding the wishes of the Iraqi people?

Who's agenda is driving this bus, Exxon's? Haliburton's?

Pulling out of Iraq at this... (Below threshold)

Pulling out of Iraq at this point would be the dumbest thing America has done since voting in Carter, and that's saying a lot.

When did the United States ... (Below threshold)
herzhonour:

When did the United States start operating
war by poll numbers? Since when did the side
that gets its butt handed to them have a say
in withdrawal?
Oh, and Hugh be sure you save a nicely toasted
crust to go along with that 'crow' you're postinga
about. You will need it.
I lived through the treasonous lefts actions of
betraying the people of S.VietNam and watched
with horror the news about the killing fields
in Cambodia. Lots of politians here damned their
souls over that one. And in 1991 began the same
sorry disgusting pattern of doing it to the people
of Iraq. Hundreds of thousands died for the
betrayal of being told to stand up against Saddam.
American government should call itself the king
of rug pullers.

I refuse to go to any link ... (Below threshold)
Scraprion:

I refuse to go to any link provided by a totally anti-American and communist leaning a-hole like Lee. Who did he link to , his god KOS?

Oh, my god, a WAPO poll. Why not just go poll Usama and Saddam, and classify them as 100% of the people.

It has been so much fun the past week watching the 'winners' (sic) make a**es of themselves on every antique MSM outlet that will let them on.

More proof daily that they not only didn't have a plan they didn't have a clue. Someone please sell them a vowel.

Get the shovels ready, they're digging the hole, we'll only have to cover up the pile of suicide's among the lefties.

I can't wait for my 22% tax increase in Jan. At least we'll know that making under $30K is classified as the rich by the dim's.

All of you guys and gals with a VA claim pending had better fight to get it approved now. The 75% increase in VA funding over the past 5 years is about to go away. Since you managed to avoid death in the war the dim's will do they're best to let you die from lack of promised medical care. You know, anything to save a dollar so they can steal it for themselves.

Hugh, STEP AWAY FROM THE BO... (Below threshold)

Hugh, STEP AWAY FROM THE BONG.
your "blame America" leftist diatribes probably play well at the Daily Kos where you can circle-jerk with fellow "free thinkers," but many here have a clear understanding of history and reality.
You and others like you are absolutely the biggest threat to this country, and it appears your Godless party comrades are about to prove it.

AP - In a WPO poll today, m... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

AP - In a WPO poll today, more people in major US cities feel they would be more safe if police were pulled out of the city.

"They are just causing more violence to erupt on our streets." said I.B. Dum. "The criminals would stop their attacks and leave us alone if the police would just leave and stop antagnozing the situation."

"Solve Iraq."Does ... (Below threshold)
yo:

"Solve Iraq."

Does not mean "cut and run."


I think it'd be interesting to know how much the folks calling for an immediate withdraw understand about the total concept of this war.

It's not just about Iraq. It's a very complicated issue, and I will say the President has not done a good job in presenting the overall goal on an easily digestable factoid that the left can understand.

I am deeply saddened by the fact that Lee-types can still bark about big oil as the only "real" criticism of the war while completely ignoring what is at stake.

One big problem is not that the fundamentalists will load up ships and invade ... a lot of them are already here just waiting for the thumbs up to go to work. A lot of them are already scattered about the world just waiting for a sign of weakness from one of the few countries that is able to look beyond the here and now, look beyond the corruption of the UN and make the hard decision to do what is right.

The Left has been working very hard, and apparently effectively at getting re-elected. based on what? Nothing more than trying to take this country back in time 30 years. Their slanderous attacks cannot hold up to scrutiny and yet, people still buy into it.

The dems have 2 years to "solve Iraq" and they think that they will be able to retain their congressional hold as well as gain the white house if they get us out of Iraq before the '08 elections.

Dems are more than happy to give the people what they want (even if the only reason why they don't want it is because they're pissed about being blocked from power for 12 years); Republicans .. or rather, Bush, is less than happy - but more correct - about giving the people what they need.

Whereas you may be able to get what you want, you're more often better served getting what you need. And what we need is a lot less pandering for power, and a lot more of actually working to solve the problem.

Cutting and running is not a solution, and I fear the ramifications of such. Folks like Lee apparently can't think beyond the Sheehan-zone to see into reality.

Steve Crickmore - just so y... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Steve Crickmore - just so you know, the words of Rumsfeld I posted above from the Mark Steyn article are those words within the quotation marks. The "Just like Vietnam" is mine. The point being that we didn't lose Vietnam over there, we lost it here. History may be about to repeat itself courtesy of the democrats - again.

The poll results are so hig... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

The poll results are so high in the Maryland WPO poll sited by Lee earlier: 87% of the Shiites, 96% of the Sunnis, feel that the US has "had mostly a negative influence on the situation in Iraq," that I suggest the US troops withdraw to 'Kurdistan' where they are much more popular, only a 34% rejection rate..Conservtives were very gracious about their defeat in the midterms, at the hands of American public opinion, why can't they similarily acknowledge that we are being defeated by Iraqi public opinion ..After all isn't very comfortable ground for any peacekeepers.., particularly the Americans in an unaccustomed historical role. If the Iraqis overwhelmingly now want to confront their own terrorists/ insurgents, foreign provocateurs by themselves, even prematurely, why should we try to disabuse them of their hopes. They certainly have a inside view of the violence they must surmount.

Mike, ok thanks..What was i... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Mike, ok thanks..What was it
George Santanya said?: "Those who forget the lessons of history are condemned to repeat them" (I must go to pick up my child at school)

Fuck it. Let's just pull o... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

Fuck it. Let's just pull out. Tomorrow. Let all the dumbass ragheads who couldn't figure out how to just not murder each other when they were handed their country on a silver platter just collapse into a huge shitheap of mayhem and butchery.

They'll get what they deserve. Enjoy, assholes.

SS

Is it me or does Scrapiron ... (Below threshold)
hansel2:

Is it me or does Scrapiron sometimes sound like Dr. Evil.

You're an angry man, Scrap. I think what you really need is a hug.
C'mon big boy. Let me give you one. Lets wash all that anger away.

"Is it me or does Scrapi... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"Is it me or does Scrapiron sometimes sound like Dr. Evil."

My guess is that he's a syphilitic drunk, living out his retirement stuck to his computer -- banging out his spew in between shots of cheap vodka -- angry at the world that done him wrong....

PeaceMoonbeam:Than... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

PeaceMoonbeam:

Thanks for recognizing that my side has "thinkers." Somewhat a relief as your side seems to be populated by rabid , foam at the mouth, xenophobic believers in UFOs. Sheeeesh, what a relief!!!

I went to church on Sunday to worship the Holy Trinity. What did you do on Sunday? Howl at the moon?

Ummm, as to the threat to our country - the voters gave a clear answer on that one.

Hugh: Actually, I SERVED in... (Below threshold)

Hugh: Actually, I SERVED in church.
I'm pleased to see you attended a church, although I'm not familiar with one that sanctifies abortion, or are the "Holy Trinity" you referred to Clinton, Reid, and Pelosi?
I guess I need to pray for you?

Anyone who's seen me post a... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Anyone who's seen me post a bit knows my opinion on polls, and it's not good (yes even for polls that happen to agree with my opinions.)

From the Washington Post article Lee linked to, I'm wondering how pollsters are getting accurate results in a country at war:

The director of another Iraqi polling firm, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he feared being killed, said public opinion surveys he conducted last month showed that 80 percent of Iraqis who were questioned favored an immediate withdrawal.

How, if you fear being killed, do you ask someone a sensitive question? Furthemore, if the "wrong answer" is overheard, could get the respondant killed...it make me wonder how reliable these polls are.

The PIPA poll, which has a margin of error of 3 percent, was carried out by Iraqis in all 18 provinces who conducted interviews with more than 1,000 randomly selected Iraqis in their homes.
The Program on International Policy Attitudes poll, which was conducted over the first three days of September

This poll was carried out by Iraqis, not a "neutral" pollster. 1000 randomly interviewed people in three days? That sets majority opinions for 26 million ethnically diverse people at war?

The greatest risk, he said, was the safety of the interviewers. Two pollsters for another Iraqi firm were recently killed because of their work.

Now, this is actually a statement on any Iraq poll, not just this one. Someone who has a better understanding or opinion on this feel free to set me straight, because it hasn't made sense to me for a long time.

Peace:Continuing t... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Peace:

Continuing to display your ignorance and lack of your own critical thought I see. As a "thinker" from the other side I actually "think" about who and what i support. I care not a whit for Reid or Clinton but I do admire Pelosi. Whereas, the loon right listens daily for Herr Limbaugh and Herr Hannity for the orders of the day.

The Holy Trinity I worship is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And i believe in a woman's right to choose for herself. Not the right for loons on the right to choose for her.

Thanks for the prayers by the way. God knows, unlike the conservative right wing, I am a sinner.

Hugh: Oh I see, you only fo... (Below threshold)

Hugh: Oh I see, you only follow the parts of Christianity that don't conflict with your political views.
Unless you're in some kind of New Age cult or whatever, I have a feeling your church elders would like to talk to you about your beliefs, or lack thereof (make sure you tell them you're a "thinker" so they'll know where you're coming from ;)
Keep repeating this so you can feel good about yourself: "It's a choice, not slaughtering children," It's a choice, not slaughtering children...."

Prayers coming your way!

If we are to leave Iraq, I ... (Below threshold)

If we are to leave Iraq, I want nothing more than for it to turn out to be the right decision who ever made it. I'm just not convinced.

Oh they may not fall to becoming a terrorist haven of the magnitude the Taliban provided, but I suspect that the best case scenario will be that they will go through the fake motions of a Democracy with massive election fraud to keep religious fascists in power and Jimmy Carter will endorse every bit of it. They'll be smarter this time too and limit media access in and out of the country so they can hide crimes large and small committed against the Iraqi people and the UN will pretend it's okay or may go out on a limb and begin a whole new barrage of stern letters. Beards will be optional, but Hajibs will be mandatory and women will be cowed again by brutish men. All across the country. Not just in a smattering of small enclaves that we've had the hardest time getting under control.

To some, this will be okay because then they can get back to arguing about American Idol and go on blissfully unaware that there are those who will be enjoying cover from getting caught planning the next 9/11.

If we left too soon, Irag w... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

If we left too soon, Irag would become the New Lebanon.

Time to take a deep breath.... (Below threshold)
John S:

Time to take a deep breath...

The Democrat's Sunday Surrender tour was designed to create headlines and placate their moonbat base. When Dems actually take power in two months they'll need to address the moderates who actually voted them in.

There's a poll out today. If you read past the Bush bashing part, it's very interesting. For example:

The percentage of Americans who are at least "somewhat concerned" that Democrats will withdraw from Iraq too quickly -- 80%. (A bare majority, 51%, are *very* concerned.) Or those worried that Democrats may prevent Bush from taking the steps necessary to protect us from terrorism -- 66%.

So Nancy Pelosi is on very thin ice, and knows it. But consider Harry Reid's predicament. His majority is one seat -- Joe Lieberman -- a Democrat who favors winning the war, has already paid a price for that belief, and who refuses to rule out switching parties to hand the Senate back to the Republicans. One stupid vote on Iraq and the Senate is gone. And Reid knows it.

Hugh, how many folks have y... (Below threshold)
epador:

Hugh, how many folks have you known that kill their unborn child and label it a "women's choice?"

I get to see them every day. And they carry scars, some hidden, some not. Some are Jewish, some Christian, some of no faith (not met any Eastern or Muslim folks who've had one yet). The religion doesn't matter. The scar on their soul is a burden, a burden ignored or discounted by most who support this "women's choice."

Now when I've placed posts like this in the past, there are usually a few women who post and tell their tale something like: "I had one, doesn't bother me, get a life." To them I ask, "what about the one you took?"

But to bring this digression back to topic, the same dishonest logic and thinking that allows one to tolerate abortion (I liken it to the doubling described by Robert Lifton of the Nazi Doctors tolerating medically sanctioned killing of mentally and physically disabled, and eventually 'genetically defective' individuals) allows one to think that our pulling out of our commitment to Iraq, no matter how ill-conceived it may have been, is a good, honorable and honest thing that will leave the world a better place.

Kinda like the Rhythm Method. It doesn't work.

Peace:You couldn't... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Peace:

You couldn't have done a better job , with your reply, of demonstrating why I so disagree the extreme right of this country. Who the F*** are you to preach to me about how i practice my Christianity? This is one of the reasons you folks lost last week. Your holier-than-thou sanctimonious preaching about faith, religion and morals. As if people like you have the answer to it all.

Though it is of no importance to my previous paragraph I am a Catholic. Nineteen years of catholic education as a matter of fact. And one of the differences in the church I attend is that we actually have a dialogue about these kinds of issues. One thing that we don't do, is judge one another about our beliefs. We don't believe "we" have the only answer. We don't believe "we" know how other people should practice their faith or struggle with their moral beliefs. No, we don't "judge" others by our standards. We don't tell "you" what you should believe or how "you" should act on questions of faith and morals. it's a wonderful church. You might try attending one like it sometime just to hear something other than the directive of the day.

My priest would probably counsel me right now as I get so incredibly angry when I am met with that smug, arrogant, holier-than-thou attitude you display. Jesus would probably forgive my anger and I am grateful for that.

Epador:Your logic ... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Epador:

Your logic makes no sense, hence no response from me. Your insults are good though.

Christians are led by faith... (Below threshold)
herzhonour:

Christians are led by faith, not
through rational thinking.
Otherwise we limit G-d with our
own weaknesses, disbeliefs, and
inabilities.
And I didn't get the alert that
Jesus Christ endorses women aborting
babies in this modern time.

Hugh: Your "Who the ... (Below threshold)

Hugh:
Your "Who the f***..." reply pretty much says it all about your "faith."
Gosh, your "church" does sound wonderful.
The fact it doesn't claim to have "the" answer, doesn't think it should tell people how to practice faith or morals, etc. obviously makes it the perfect fit for a liberal who doesn't want to wrestle with such weighty issues.
Oh yeah, I really stand firm on my "Godless" remark, now based on your own profane, rambling indictment (I hope you're not an lawyer, the guy would be fried!).
"....19 years of catholic education" - Hilarious! Please come and write for me, I'll pay you.

Peace Moonbeam writes;... (Below threshold)
John:

Peace Moonbeam writes;

"...Oh I see, you only follow the parts of Christianity that don't conflict with your political views."

Oh, Peace EVERYBODY follows the parts of Christianity that don't conflict with their views.

If Jesus came back to earth and saw what we were doing in his name, he'd never stop throwing up. Jesus said to feed the poor. To not be violent. To love people. We do so very little of what Jesus meant and said. Mahatma Gandhi said, and I feel the same way myself...

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

We get all dressed up for church and sing and pass the plate and go off after the hour's over, then do whatever we want, no matter who it hurts for the other 167 hours of the week.

I heard a Republican policy maker in Washington respond when asked if Jesus would really sanction all this killing, he said somethign to the effect of "If he doesn't, I'll just take it up with him when I get there." ....oooooh yeah. You're gonna school Jesus in the afterlife. Well good luck with that.

Here's another thing I really believe...

"If Jesus Christ were to come today people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner, and hear what he has to say, and make fun of it. ~Thomas Carlyle"

John

Peace, You sound a... (Below threshold)
John:

Peace,

You sound angry. Tell us about your faith and how it's different.

Please, no offense intended.

John

Peace:As expected ... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Peace:

As expected your reply was smug, holier-than-thou and sanctimonious. thanks for affirming my point. I knew you would.

Am I the only one who finds... (Below threshold)
RicardoVerde:

Am I the only one who finds it humorous that the far left side of the Democrats has succeeded in making Joe Lieberman the most powerful man in congress?

Hugh, if epador's logic mad... (Below threshold)

Hugh, if epador's logic made no sense to you why was it necessary to respond with an announcement that you had no response? Yet completed it with further commentary about his ability to insult?

Even though I think you're wrong on so many issues, I can at least credit you with trying to explain yourself. But that was another of your wave-of-the-hand dismissals that are just so unecessary.

RicardoVerde,I can... (Below threshold)
John:

RicardoVerde,

I can't decide if I should ask you to score me $40 of that stuff you're smoking, or try to educate you...

Ah...

Lieberman LOST the primary. Democrats did not favor him over Lamont.

Lieberman won the general election with support from Republicans more so than the "far left".

I'm hoping we're going to go back to teaching more civics in school. That would be humorous.

John

Oyster, you're doing it too... (Below threshold)
Jesus:

Oyster, you're doing it too...

Ack! Damn! now I'm doing it!

John: I sound angry? Are yo... (Below threshold)

John: I sound angry? Are you serious? You read Hugh's profane diatribe and you say I sound angry? Another comedian!
BTW, nice dig at the "Republican policy maker" :)
Gee, I'm sorry you don't like Christians, but then again you would hardly be a liberal if you did, right?
Hugh, I continue to be endlessly humored by your repeated claim that I am holier-than-thou and sanctimonious (how many years of "catholic education" did you have again? hehehe). I guess when someone calls you on your implied piety ("I was in church last Sunday..."), it pretty much makes you go crazy, complete with F bombs. Interesting. Side note: If you went to a "real" Catholic (capital"C" BTW) church they could do an exorcism on you or something and make you stop that:).
Okay, you two have finally worn me down. Hugh, I for one am now fully convinced you are, in fact, a Holy Man of God, and totally take back anything that I wrote that may have implied you are a fake Christian practicing fake Christianity in a fake church. I'm really, really sorry.
BTW, I suggest you not get too close to John as he says he doesn't like your faith...

Peace Moonbeam,Dam... (Below threshold)
John:

Peace Moonbeam,

Damn, yeah you do really seem angry. You seem to be getting more and more wound up, and for my part, I'm sorry about that. I'm not your enemy.

In fact if you sit right now, and ask yourself "Am I angry?" I think you'd have to say yes. If not, I think you're lying to yourself, and if you deny that, you're lying to the rest of us. If so, nothing you say has any credibility.

I'm trying to ask you a serious question or two.

It's not a "dig" at "the republican policy maker". I heard him say it within the last two weeks, I just don't recall the name.

OK, can I appologize, and we can talk? Tell me about your faith.

Peace, about Hugh's 19 ye... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

Peace, about Hugh's 19 years of Catholic schooling, it's highly possible that it took him 7 yrs to pass the 12th grade.

"As expected you... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

"As expected your reply was smug, holier-than-thou and sanctimonious."

This is typical behavior of the Democrat Party of Perpetual Fraud. The best time to find a Democrat anywhere near a church would be just before an election. The one where their Media has set up camp at.

Hugh , your eyes should be ripped from their sockets since they serve you no purpose. Your blind as a bat and to reality.

Lee, lucky for you , your comment you made toward Scrapiron wasn't made with the three of us in the same room. But then again, the punkass Un-American coward that you are hasn't the BALLS to do so.

Now before you start labeling me RightWing whatever or Religious whatever. I'm Registered Democratic , went to Catholic school for 12 years with of course means I served as an alter boy for many years. I haven't been to church in years other than Weddings or Funerals. Having won back your pretious power back , why do you guys still sound like assholes and sore losers?

Gee John, are you trying to... (Below threshold)

Gee John, are you trying to hypnotize me into thinking I'm angry? "You are so angry, just relax and know you are so angry..." Please stop, I just don't feel like being angry right now, and I certainly don't feel the need to explain traditional Christianity to you, so you can lamely attempt to discredit it.

You can borrow someone's Bible (I'd suggest a Republican:)and read all about it yourself. After you familiarize yourself with it, you can explain it to Hugh (if he's not in his "catholic education" class, of course.)
Me, I've got to play some Battlefield 2 with other warmongering conservatives. It's what we do.

Peace,You started ... (Below threshold)
John:

Peace,

You started this part of the thread with;

"Hugh, STEP AWAY FROM THE BONG.
your "blame America" leftist diatribes probably play well at the Daily Kos where you can circle-jerk with fellow "free thinkers," but many here have a clear understanding of history and reality.
You and others like you are absolutely the biggest threat to this country, and it appears your Godless party comrades are about to prove it."


Then you expect me to feel bad because Hugh may have insulted you after you sent this to him?

So now, you want to go play your shoot-em-up games because that's what good christian republicans do?

I was trying to have a legitimate discussion with you. I've not called you any names, or made fun of your point of view.

Wow,When did you Win... (Below threshold)

Wow,
When did you Wingnuts become such doom and gloom chicken little drama queens? Just go back and read your post election posts and you'll see what I mean. I use to respect the political right of this country (Reagan, Bush 41) but you guys have turned into the biggest bunch of finger pointing cry babies ever.

What if we pull out of Iraq in a phased and orderly manner and things don't fall apart here in America? I know some (not all) of you who support the occupation of Iraq have a vested interest in keeping this gravy train rolling. We are talking 2 to 3 billion dollars a week are being spent on this war in Iraq. The American people have said in no uncertain terms, no more.

Solve the Iraq issue for middle Americans and you may just have a chance in 08. Stay the course, and see your political capitol continue to slide downward. Looks to me like you guys kind of enjoy being on the loosing side of things.

I'll make a few comments, b... (Below threshold)
hansel2:

I'll make a few comments, because this is just absurd.

The fact it doesn't claim to have "the" answer, doesn't think it should tell people how to practice faith or morals, etc. obviously makes it the perfect fit for a liberal who doesn't want to wrestle with such weighty issues.

PeaceMoonbeam, my church (and I grew up Methodist) had a minister who actually told us to question what was considered the "exact" translations of events in the bible - not because he was a hethen but because it would strengthen our faith when we try to understand the reality of those times. For example, he considered Adam and Eve more of a parable than a real event.

Believe it or not, your arrogant certainty about what's right and wrong is, well, wrong. And just because you can't think for yourself doesn't mean others are assholes or politically corrupt. You seem fearful. That's what I get out of this. You probably don't even know you are. Get some help.

Lee, lucky for you , your comment you made toward Scrapiron wasn't made with the three of us in the same room. But then again, the punkass Un-American coward that you are hasn't the BALLS to do so.

Rob, you're a posturing little ass with nothing to contribute other than your typical nastiness. You throw out alot of slogans and particularly like "Democrat Party of Perpetual Fraud" but it just shows your inability to add useful criticism to a discussion. Go back to school.

Now, I'm not suggesting I'm any voice of reason here (and my comments tend to be ridiculous anyway) but I just can't stomach some of this bile - especially from some hypocrite like PeaceMoonbeam who cloaks his anger behind the bible. It's ugly, simple minded and it exposes you for who you are - a scared little child who needs to be told what to do and how to think (obviously by a church that caters to that) and is deathly afraid of change or opinions that challenge his tenuous grasp on reality.

And Scrapiron, if you still... (Below threshold)
hansel2:

And Scrapiron, if you still need that hug, it's here for you, big boy.

John,I doesn't mat... (Below threshold)
John S:

John,

I doesn't matter that the Democrats ran Joe Lieberman out of the Democrat party and that he won anyway without the far left vote. Joe holds the balance of power in the most powerful legislative body in Washington. If he decides not to vote for Harry Reid as Senate Majority Leader but for Mitch McConnell instead, the Senate will belong to the Republicans, PERIOD. I only wish I could see Howard Dean groveling and sucking to keep Joe happy.

Oyster:Sometimes w... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Oyster:

Sometimes when you're in a pig pen you just have to wrestle with the pigs. They can get unruly you know.

I guess it's too late to as... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

I guess it's too late to ask if anyone could answer my questions about the polls? Every time I post something about how I don't understand how these polls come to the conclusions they do, no one answers. Could it be I'm not the only one?

hansel2:Wow, another... (Below threshold)

hansel2:
Wow, another religious freedom fighter! My guess is you also have been extensively trained for decades in "catholic education."
BTW, it's Bible (capital "B").
hansel2 I thank you for your learned theological input, it changed my whole belief system.

PS: My Methodist minister told me Adam and Eve were aliens from Venus.

John S.,My thought... (Below threshold)
John:

John S.,

My thoughts were in regard to RicardoVerde who had written;

"Am I the only one who finds it humorous that the far left side of the Democrats has succeeded in making Joe Lieberman the most powerful man in congress?"

Of course it wasn't the far left... But it's easy to blame everything on the mysterious, evil, lurking "Far Left".

So you mentioned that;

"I doesn't matter that the Democrats ran Joe Lieberman out of the Democrat party and that he won anyway without the far left vote."

Well, yes... For the purpose of my response to RicardoVerde it does. That's exactly the point. Secondly, the "Democrats" did not run Joe out of the part. It's a primary vote for Pete's sake. In any primary, republican or democratic unless it's unopposed, somebody wins and somebody loses. That's just the way it is. You don't get tossed out, you just have to try again. There are no "The Democrats" that toss you out. You just didn't get enough votes.

He does hold a certain ballance of power as you mention, but it's a bit like the power the Vice President holds in the senate. Man, when it's a tie, he's got absolute power, but other than that not so much. Joe as an independent won't be able to do much on his own, so he's got to throw in with somebody (which was your point, and well said), and he's stated he'll caucus with the Democrats.

Ah, we'll see what happens. I'm sure it's going to be an interesting session.

Thank you,

John

"Oyster:Sometimes ... (Below threshold)

"Oyster:

Sometimes when you're in a pig pen you just have to wrestle with the pigs. They can get unruly you know.

Posted by: Hugh at November 14, 2006 08:25 AM"


Hugh,
Most normal people don't feel a need to start wrestling pigs when in their vicinity. I have little doubt PETA would not be happy with this violent behavior directed at peaceful beings.

In any case it seems obvious that if you are planning to wrestle you better at least make sure you're stronger than the pigs.

Add john to the list of tho... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Add john to the list of those with shit for brains.

Jhow66,I am overwh... (Below threshold)
John:

Jhow66,

I am overwhelmed with your superior logic.

If you parents will let you on the internet later I demand a rematch.

John

OK. Iran's Leader primes an... (Below threshold)
as reality dawns on us...:

OK. Iran's Leader primes and crows even louder, he seems emboldened; are you still confused how the election results and Rumsfeld's resulting dismissal aka resignation were deciphered by "them"?




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