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It's a Quagmire!

Without looking at the URL or the headline at the top, try to figure out which city this is. Each red dot represents a murder in the past year. Isn't that a quagmire? Isn't it time to consider pulling out?


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Comments (146)

Yes, it's time to pull out ... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

Yes, it's time to pull out of that city and every other city that has innocent civilians and policemen being killed.

We cannot win a war against gangs, burgulars and angry spouses. I'm voting to cut and run.

Does Philadelphia have a gr... (Below threshold)
ted:

Does Philadelphia have a green zone?

What's our exit strategy? W... (Below threshold)
DL From Heidelberg:

What's our exit strategy? Why hasn't the mayor stepped down? Why hasn't the police chief been fired?

Yep! That is Philadelphia a... (Below threshold)
RFYoung:

Yep! That is Philadelphia and I have already pulled out and redeployed to Alabama. That ought to make those murdering criminals sorry!

Yes we do have a green zone... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Yes we do have a green zone here in Philly. It's the Northwest - Manayunk/Roxborough/Chestnut Hill - area. Large number of cops call this area home.

<a href="http... (Below threshold)
Lee:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Gunmen dressed as police commandos kidnapped up to 150 staff and visitors in a lightning raid on a Baghdad research institute Tuesday, the largest mass abduction since the start of the U.S. occupation.


The sooner we pull out of t... (Below threshold)

The sooner we pull out of this area, the safer it will be, as I believe the police presence is creating more criminals.
I also strongly suspect the local jails aren't totally respecting the criminal's civil and cultural rights, aggravating the problem.

Lee, that number has been r... (Below threshold)
SurfinKC:

Lee, that number has been revised down to around 50. Please go there and confirm for us all!

Maybe the murder rate would drop in Philly if the Frickin' Eagles could cover the spread once in a while.

Did you notice that over 85... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Did you notice that over 85% of the homicides were committed with a gun?

ALSO - PROFILING WILL NOT B... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

ALSO - PROFILING WILL NOT BE PERMITTED.

Even though NO deaths were caused by white females, IT IS LIKELY that little gray haired grandmas WILL be behind future murderers and therefore they - along with their homes - MUST be searched for AK47's (or other lethal weapons such as their bobby pins).

I agree with SurfinKC, we n... (Below threshold)

I agree with SurfinKC, we need to take up an offering so we can send "Lee" to Baghdad so we can get the straight scoop on how bad we're losing.

It would be especially helpful to have him embedded with the Iraqi police.

I'm in for $5.00.

Hey, Barn, doesn't Philly h... (Below threshold)
gdb central texas:

Hey, Barn, doesn't Philly have some of the toughest gun control laws in the country? So what's your point - the victims are undergunned?

And Barney, I can garuantee... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

And Barney, I can garuantee that off the 200 some gun homocides in Philly, many of those bodies belong to the same killer, and a higer ratio still belong to the same gun.

"Did you notice that over 8... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

"Did you notice that over 85% of the homicides were committed with a gun?" -Barney Fife

And several with bare hands. Therefore everyone in Philly has now been notified to stand in line at city hall for mass hand and foot amputations.

Ahhh it's not so bad.. at l... (Below threshold)
914:

Ahhh it's not so bad.. at least they dont have a problem with IED'S yet.

I was the first to tell the... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

I was the first to tell the mayor that we should NOT have gone in there to try to stop the killings.

We now have MORE people being recruited by the killers because of police arrogance, tactics, and mistreatment of prisoners. Also, the torture of using handcuffs MUST stop!!

Philly cannot win this war.... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

Philly cannot win this war.

How can anyone with any sen... (Below threshold)
quantumfizz:

How can anyone with any sense of decency and honor even think of pulling out of the City of Brotherly Love without first having considered removing the Weapons of Mass Destruction???

This is John F. Street's wa... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

This is John F. Street's war - not ours. He should be impeached for lying.

"When the Mayor took office in January 2000, he offered the citizens ... safer streets for our residents..."

http://www.phila.gov/mayor/initiatives.html

He's stupid and he's a liar. Impeach the Dumbocrat.

Shorter Whiztard Logic:... (Below threshold)
MyPetGloat:

Shorter Whiztard Logic:

..But we're that much closer to a Democracy in Philladelphia!!

We should have NEVER remove... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

We should have NEVER removed these people. They were innocent and we were mistaken:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/howard_unruh/9.html

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Gunmen dres... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Gunmen dressed as police commandos kidnapped up to 150 staff and visitors in a lightning raid on a Baghdad research institute Tuesday, the largest mass abduction since the start of the U.S. occupation. Lee

This only shows that the terrorists are doing their part to repay the moral and financial support they have received from the dim's over the past 5 years. Violence was ramped up by the terrorists to sway the elections (Spain Again) and the cowardly Americans jumped right in. Now they're killing people by the hundreds to insure the dim's put those friendly to them in leadership positions. Hey Mr. terrorists, it doesn't matter who they put in leadership positions, all dim's are anti-American and pro-terrorists.

I love it, the kiss them and they'll go away approach of the dim's isn't working too well is it. More blood for the dim's to soak their hands in, which is a daily requirement to be a left wing dim. Soon the American people will figure out they got what they paid for. A high price for worthless politicians.

Well it's obviously NOT Bag... (Below threshold)
muir:

Well it's obviously NOT Baghdad because they have that many murders in one week.

The problem in Philly is that it's an American city and we have pulled out. Tons of resources sent overseas to a dreadfully counterproductive war when there is so much we could be doing here for OUR citizens.

So what's your point?

Ever notice how the most da... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

Ever notice how the most dangerous cities in US are all controlled by Dems?

Guess taking care of their own really isnt a priority, and since it doesnt get impact from lib media, they ignore it.

I live west of Philly, and the so called 'white' areas of Philly dont have many red dots in them. Is it racist to imply that whites are a disproportionately low amont of murderers, and victims?

Where Jesse and Al?

"Did you notice th... (Below threshold)
Old Coot:
"Did you notice that over 85% of the homicides were committed with a gun?" -Barney Fife

And several with bare hands. Therefore everyone in Philly has now been notified to stand in line at city hall for mass hand and foot amputations.

And don't forget baseball bats and knives and rocks and hammers and.............

So, by muirgeo's logic, the... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

So, by muirgeo's logic, the long standing problems of one of America's oldest and largets cities, which have been festering for longer than the 33 years I've lived across the river from it, are all Bush's fault.
Scary to think he works with children.

Muir(geo?), uh, trust me it... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Muir(geo?), uh, trust me it ain't the money. Nice try, though.

No Blood for......?????????... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

No Blood for......?????????

What exactly does Philadelphia have that we want to take through imperialism?

Not only are the most dange... (Below threshold)
IllTemperedCur:

Not only are the most dangerous cities in the US controlled by Dems, it takes a Republican to clean up one of the worst.

Giuliani Time!

I've been to Philadelphia a... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

I've been to Philadelphia a few times, it's a beautiful city...but it obviously has some enormous problems that aren't getting any better.

If the soft on crime Republ... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

If the soft on crime Republicans would get behind sensible gun control laws, and stop sucking the dick of the NRA, many of those deaths would have been prevented..

Cheesesteaks Steve, cheeses... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Cheesesteaks Steve, cheesesteaks.

No blood for cheesesteaks!

Actually, Scrapiron,you sho... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Actually, Scrapiron,you should't be so upset, (if you support someone like John Negroponte). It wasn't the terrorists that kidnapped 150 men, it was the Shiite death squads, the ones we have been training and financing as part of ' Salvador Option, the Iraqi army and police stand up we stand down policy'.They were checking identity cards in the car park. They picked only the Sunni employees. They even took the man who was just delivering tea," the man said.
Police were watching, but did nothing, he said
The terrorists are the Sunni insurgents, that's why the shorthand is correct, ' it's quagmire'. No one can tell the good guys, (unless they're our boys )from the bad guys anymore.

BarneyG2000,Do you... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

BarneyG2000,

Do you suppose the criminals and gang members would have been hobbled by gun control laws? I have a hunch that these people do not aquire and possess firearms legally.

Good point, BarneyG2000.<br... (Below threshold)

Good point, BarneyG2000.
As soon as we put a gun in the house of every citizen we can turn this thing around.
Oh yeah, I'd keep your homoerotic fantasies about the NRA to yourself, this isn't Frisco.

Steve Crickmore,<bloc... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Steve Crickmore,

Illegal groups, including Shiite militias who have widely infiltrated the police force, are known to wear stolen or fake police and army uniforms.

Doesn't really sound like we're training them.

Hey Barney,Several w... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Hey Barney,
Several weeks ago a headline here in the Philly Inquirer said "Gun Deaths Related To Drugs". Yep, we know how well the war on drugs is going, too. I always say, boy if we could just get those guns out of the hands of those drug dealers, why, the drug problem would just disappear. Yep, that's what I say. Plus, well, also that darned drug problem is all Bush's fault. That's despite the fact that all politics is local, well, sometimes it is unless it's all Bush's fault.

"..do not aquire and posses... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

"..do not aquire and possess firearms legally"

That is why the ballistic signature of every hand gun should be registered, and all background check loop-holes should be closed.

It is just like domestic spying, if you're not a criminal, you got nothing to be afraid of. Right?

Members of the fabricated r... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Members of the fabricated reality based community, like BarneyG, would prefer that we have the skyrocketing crime and murder rates that are seen in other countries that have gun bans like Austrialia and England.

Lefty Logic: If someone is planning on robbing or killing someone, they're definitely not going to use a gun if guns are illegal. It's not like the muggers, theifs, and murderers would want to break the law! No they'd never do that! All we need to do is outlaw guns and they'll be gone forever. It's worked great with drugs-- we outlawed them and now no one can get any drugs at all.

/secular regressive socialist babble off

At least that helps us understand how stupid one has to be to vote for "democrats".

Heralder, it doesn't sound... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Heralder, it doesn't sound like we are training them very well if militia groups/death squads can inflitrate the police force so easily ,and weapons and uniforms are so unaccounted ...I will grant you the US seems finally to be addressing this problem, but not the Maliki government ministries, who are so dependent on the militias support.

"That is why the ballist... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"That is why the ballistic signature of every hand gun should be registered, and all background check loop-holes should be closed."

I have no problem with either of those things but they will not solve the problem at all as the criminals will simply be able to get guns through the black market which cannot ever be stopped (look at our drug laws as an example-- we spend billions and have no net effect on drug availability)

The murder rate in Philly i... (Below threshold)
suhnami:

The murder rate in Philly is EXACTLY like the problems we are having in Iraq.

Do you liberal's really thi... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Do you liberal's really think that the terroritsts are the only ones capapble of building a bomb. If you somehow manage to disarm the American public you will have a rude awakening. Instead of shooting the one person the gang members are after they will set off a bomb and get the one person, plus dozens of bystanders. I would, you would, and the gangs will. Common sense is totally missing from the left wing liberal anti-gun dim's.

That's right Barney. I own several handguns as well as numerous long guns, all registered, and have nothing to fear from the law, now, give the dim's a year and I'll probably have to bury them to keep them. That will be the day I join a revolutionary force to fight the dim's, violently. I also possess a CWP. Thanks for reminding me to put the 9MM back in the truck, after I check the laser site. Visited the high school yesterday so removed it before I went.
Issue a concealed weapons permit to every 'honest' non-criminal citizen that wants one and the violent death rate will take a dive immediately. It's worked in other places and it will work in Philly. The leadership in Philly are just to stupid (all dim's) to give it a try. Maybe when the death toll reaches a thousand a year they'll wake up.

After we get Lee over to Ir... (Below threshold)
SurfinKC:

After we get Lee over to Iraq for a first hand inspection, we should re-deploy over the horizon to Pittsburgh!

Moonbeam, I've got $10 to add to the pot.

BarneyG2000,I have... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

BarneyG2000,

I have no problem whatsoever with that suggestion. That would keep track of guns purchased legally. But again, do you think these criminals get their firearms legally?

Steve Crickmore,

it doesn't sound like we are training them very well if militia groups/death squads can inflitrate the police force so easily ,and weapons and uniforms are so unaccounted...

Sounds like a difficult problem to get a handle on. After all, many may have joined the force with the sole purpose of carrying out these acts. If you wear a mask and do it while you're off duty, it wouldn't be too hard. The original headline I saw for this story mentioned the "gunmen" were clad in the old police uniforms, but I couldn't that mention from Reuters.

It's along the same lines as the general insurgent/terrorist problem. The guy is a civilian until he picks up his weapon, and many times after he is dead and the weapon is removed, he's a civilian again...and a civilian death.
In this case, these guys might be joining as normal recruits and secretly carrying out these acts. I hope it's something we an get a handle on and soon. There's no way we'll have stability if a portion of the police force is a rogue death squad.

But then, if we withdraw, this problem will get a lot worse rather than better.

Barnyard said:1... (Below threshold)

Barnyard said:

1.) If the soft on crime Republicans would get behind sensible gun control laws, and stop sucking the dick of the NRA, many of those deaths would have been prevented..

2.) That is why the ballistic signature of every hand gun should be registered, and all background check loop-holes should be closed.

First off, is murder a crime? It is here in Ohio, so I think it is in Philly, so these folks obviously don't mind breaking THAT law, so why would they obey a law about gun control?

To the second comment, do you have any idea how many guns are out there? Are you going to foot the bill to have all of them checked? What about shotguns? Rifles? Do you think the criminals are going to take their gun to have the ballistics recorded?

Surely you're just trying to stir things up, I'd like to think no America can really think that way. . . or DOESN'T think for that matter.

I own four rifles, a 12-gag... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

I own four rifles, a 12-gage and two pellet hand guns. If you have the attitude that laws don't prevent crimes, than let's get rid of all laws.

Ask yourself, why is the NRA so against common sense gun laws as I wrote about above? It is about money. They need a boogie-man to scare all the rednecks into payer their dues.

If a gun could be tracked back to the buyer, than the illegal trade in guns will drop.

Muir(geo?), uh, trust me it... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Muir(geo?), uh, trust me it ain't the money. Nice try, though.

Posted by: DaveD


OK Dave then you tell me/us specifically what it is.

And then next you tell me your advice for this kid born to a drug using mom in the ghetto's of Philly and with no father.

Let's see your logic through.

Let me phrase it another wa... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Let me phrase it another way Dave.

Is that baby a victim of circumstance, of genetics or of culture? And then explained your proposed solutions with no presumption that the baby even has any boot straps!

If the soft on crime Republ... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

If the soft on crime Republicans would get behind sensible gun control laws, and stop sucking the dick of the NRA, many of those deaths would have been prevented..

1. Who mentioned BarneyFrank, McGreevey, or Gavin Newsome?

2. What does gun control have to do with crime? Ask any Philly area cop, I did, and they'll tell you guns are very prevalent, and most are not legal.

A cop in Chester County told me about a week and a half ago that they confiscate over a dozen illegal guns a week, and this is in a township where avg home price is getting close to half a mil. Yup, only a IDIOT would think controlling guns would control crime.

Barney:If a gun c... (Below threshold)

Barney:
If a gun could be tracked back to the buyer, than the illegal trade in guns will drop.

I, too, am a gun owner. How would we enforce laws preventing me from selling my gun to my neighbor, him to his father, him to his son, his son to a criminal?

I'll make it easier: Steal a gun. Wow, now it can't be traced at all. They are already criminals. Making it harder for citizens to own guns will only increase crime. It's been proven.

According to Fox news, the ... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

According to Fox news, the homicide rate for Baghdad was:
2002 14 per 100,000
2004 76 per 100,000

According to this study (just out yesterday):
http://www.brook.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

The homicide rate in Irag for 2006 (thru Aug) is about:
2006 354 per 100,000

Hey I got an idea. Why not ... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Hey I got an idea. Why not post a sign on your door that says I don't own any guns. Then those that do post the sign saying I own guns.This way the crooks will know where to go. Do you think old muri(geo), b'google, "pucker puss"(lee lee) and the like would post the sign? I will give $20 for p'p'(lee lee) trip. He could earn the money him(?)self by just putting up a sign saying--"open for business"(hint hint)

BarneyFife.02,I... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

BarneyFife.02,

If a gun could be tracked back to the buyer, than the illegal trade in guns will drop.

That's just about the biggest damn IF you're ever going to see, ladies and gentlemen.

It's typical of liberal thinking. It sounds good. It makes me feel good. Therefore, it must be good.

It's completely IMPOSSIBLE, of course, but don't let that deter you.

If we can't stop (not to mention slow down) the flow of illegal drugs into this country, what could possibly make you think we could stop the flow of illegal guns into this country? Just to make this so simple even you should be able to understand it, Barney, assume for the sake of argument that we do manage to spend billions and billions of dollars and successfully get the ballistic signature of every gun in this country as of right now. Great! Now what? What are you going to do about all the new illegal guns that come to this country every year?

As much as you like to complain about the actions the Republicans have taken to attempt to combat terrorists and terrorism, you really do want a police state, don't you? You just want one with a Dim in charge. Because that's the only way you'll achieve the kind of gun control you are advocating.

More homicide rates per 100... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

More homicide rates per 100,000 persons:
Philly = 22
Dallas = 20.2
LA = 13.4

US Forces in Iraq = 656

Muirgeo, this is a very sa... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Muirgeo, this is a very sad picture. However, the original post deals with murders in Philly. So it is not clear what this poor child's picture has to do with the murder rate. My comment still stands about funding. You made a simple statement that if funds/resources were not diverted to Iraq and instead were spent in the cities that these sorts of murder statistics would not occur. I countered your simple statement with a simple reply. Pleasingly, your follow up to me suggests that this is a more complex problem than your initial comment indicated. But the Philadelphia DHS/ School System discussions can be left for another time. If my later comment about the murder rate being related to drugs generated your reply to me then I ask where you feel the level of this mother's sense of personal responsibility to herself and her child end? That is an important question to me. First, society is basically good because I don't think there is anyone here (liberal or conservative) who would not feel sympathy for this child. But does society's sympathy absolve this mother's responsibility??? Money does not change that. I also feel the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq are wasting their time fighting each other while freedom is knocking at their door. You would suggest no amount of money will change that. At least the Kurds seem to get it. And I bet each and every one of them owns a gun to protect their sense of freedom.

This issue has almost nothi... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

This issue has almost nothing to do with gun control.

It's an issue of poverty, lack of education and human resources. Give me just 1 billion a year of the hundreds of billions spent/ wasted in Iraq and I could have the murder rate in Philly down and the literacy rate up.

These are the issues where many under estimate the true cost of the Iraq war....what a waste of our soldiers and of our people here living in need. And much of it going to profiteers who feel they need more millions for themselves with no thought for the troops or the drug babies back home...there time has come....they are going to pay back to society what they owe.

It our fault. If we were o... (Below threshold)
engineer:

It our fault. If we were only nice to the criminals, they won't hurt us. (Isn't that the Iraq logic?). So give the mugger your wallet, spread your legs for the rapist, hand the keys to the car thief (and gasoline credit card) and make sure to have the silverware in a case ready for the burglar (and leave the door unlocked).

I feel safer already!

Mungo, haven't we spent tri... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

Mungo, haven't we spent trillions of $$ on the "War on Poverty?" This is great--Mungo's theory is at odds with BarneytheDinosauerv6.0. Both theories are illustrative of the loony left not having its act together, or much else.

I blame the police in Philly for "provoking" the "insurgents" by their presence among the proud people there.

I say, shut the place down and pull the voter registration. Then, we'd get Santorum back.

Muirgeo, I have no criticis... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Muirgeo, I have no criticism about your last post other than to thank you for not mentioning gun control as a productive means of curbing violence.

Giving money to somebody wi... (Below threshold)
engineer:

Giving money to somebody without them earning it, is wasted money. They won't appreciate it and when they do get it, then they expect it. Thus leading to lower education (since they are given money, they really don't need an education) and more crime (especially if you quit giving them money).

We've spent about $4.5 tril... (Below threshold)

We've spent about $4.5 trillion on social welfare programs in the last forty years, resulting in the situation we have now.

The left's solution? More social welfare spending.


"He's a one-trick pony, but he turns that trick with pride."

But the Philadelphia DHS/ S... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

But the Philadelphia DHS/ School System discussions can be left for another time. If my later comment about the murder rate being related to drugs generated your reply to me then I ask where you feel the level of this mother's sense of personal responsibility to herself and her child end? That is an important question to me. First, society is basically good because I don't think there is anyone here (liberal or conservative) who would not feel sympathy for this child. But does society's sympathy absolve this mother's responsibility??? Money does not change that.

Posted by: DaveD


Dave,

Thanks for a reasoned reply. I'm a Pediatrician who started my career as a conservative who somewhat despised my welfare mom's having babies they couldn't or wouldn't take care of. The disregard for individual responsibility and the everyone's a victim mentality of the left really bothered me.

But time and experience has shown me that that mom who acts irresponsibly was indeed once the child I see before me.

It truly is a cycle of ignorance and poverty and it is one we can break with proper attention and resources.

Get that mom the health care she needs (help her plan her family, help her and her husband find a job, help them break their drug habit, help them graduate from highschool, help them not become pregnant teens, support head start and child care needs, overhaul the eduation system, enforce the laws and make their streets safer.....lots of money needed here but nothing of the sort we are spending in Iraq and on other corporate welfare. The return rate will be great not just for those families but for their cities, for me and you and for our country.

I'm not promoting self-fullfilling welfare of the past. We all recognize the failure that was but the flip side is a lot can be done with programs that help these people break the cycle of poverty. We can do more but we are squandering our resources on lost causes and some I see as infuriatingly aimed at pigs feeding from the trough just as dependent on government welfare and costing us far more in the long run then the welfare mom.

You'll never end poverty pe... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

You'll never end poverty per se but you can choose to minimize it like we have and better still as they has in the social democracies of Europe. Or you can ignore it in preference for an unregulated "frre market" system that the conservatives wish to push but which results in economies like Mexico or Columbia...highly concentrated wealth, a very small middle class, a corrupt ruling elite, single party governance and upwards of 50% of people living in poverty.

"Does Philadelphia have a g... (Below threshold)
N. O'Brain:

"Does Philadelphia have a green zone?
Posted by: ted at November 14, 2006 09:33 AM"

Yeah.

Fairmont Park.

muirego,You'll never... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

muirego,
You'll never end poverty per se but you can choose to minimize it like we have and better still as they has in the social democracies of Europe. Or you can ignore it in preference for an unregulated "frre market" system that the conservatives wish to push but which results in economies like Mexico or Columbia...highly concentrated wealth, a very small middle class, a corrupt ruling elite, single party governance and upwards of 50% of people living in poverty.
------------------------------------------------
You really don't know what you are talking about here. The reason Mexico is in the bad economic shape because it is following the socialist policies of the western European countries. The people in Europe are far poorer compared to people in the US. The Canadian/British health care system is a disaster for the poor, who are languishing int the public health care system with long waiting period. Only the very rich in England can afford the private care.
Just look at the unemployment rate in Europe for example. Airbus is in trouble now because of its socialistic practice.

You'll never end poverty... (Below threshold)

You'll never end poverty per se but you can choose to minimize it like we have and better still as they has in the social democracies of Europe

Posted by: muirgeo


Europe is also touting how great their unemployment is. It remained at a five year low of 7.8% USA unemployment is currently 4.4%, and many (on the left) are still saying that's too high. Can you imagine unemployment being 7.8% in the US right now? Correct me if I'm wrong, muirgeo, but if you don't have a job, you are going to have to get government aid, if you are getting government aid, (a.k.a. paid for doing nothing) why would you get a job?

There were 337 murders in P... (Below threshold)
CCc:

There were 337 murders in Philly between Jan. 1, 2006 and Oct. 1, 2006. The Brookings Institute reports that there are over 5000 murders MONTHLY in Baghdad. You republicans crack me up with your math.

Comparing our inability to ... (Below threshold)
seattle slough:

Comparing our inability to regulate illegal drugs and guns is not a logical comparison. We manufacture guns. No one is growing a basement full of glocks in Auburn, Washington right now. We are not importing kilos of bullets from Columbia. I can't buy a bunch of cold medicine and whip up an Uzi in my canning kitchen.

Every single gun and bullet used in every single crime, in all likelyhood, entered the stream of commerce legally at some point and was later lost, stolen, or sold. Every one. Every bullet. Every gun.

The only comparison to drugs is something like Oxycontin, where we know exactly where every pill is made.

Can anyone disagree with the following statement?

We should make it as difficult as possible for felons, children, and the mentally and physically incompetent (i.e. blind people) to purchase or possess firearms.

Don't tell me it won't work. Sure it will. It won't stop every gun crime, but it would certainly stop some.

That is why the ba... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:
That is why the ballistic signature of every hand gun should be registered, and all background check loop-holes should be closed.
-Barney

Sorry, but that doesn't work either. All it takes to alter a ballistic signature is a wire brush or a file.
And every time you fire a gun, you alter the signature by a fraction. The signature of a gun when it rolls off the line is NOT going to match the signature it has after a few boxes of ammo have done down the barrel.

Plus, many of the favorite sources of gang guns are from smuggled in through the ports, not coming right off of Colt's assembly line. The Russian mob will not be in compliance with any fingerprint laws.
Finally, many of the guns used are recycled from thug to thug, crime to crime.
You still hear about gang bangers using full auto Tec-9s, even though that gun hasn't been built since 1982. The non-convertible version was banned in 1994. Heck, the Swedish company that made them went under in 2001.
But you'll still see police reports citing Tec-9s in Philly this year.

SS,Do you know what ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

SS,
Do you know what the black market is?

There were 337 murders i... (Below threshold)
dave:

There were 337 murders in Philly between Jan. 1, 2006 and Oct. 1, 2006. The Brookings Institute reports that there are over 5000 murders MONTHLY in Baghdad.

And unfortunately, not one single solitary moronic brownshirt fuck puking wingnut talking points on a blog was one of them

Because they're Mother. Fucking. Cowards.

Yeah, just like Philly. </p... (Below threshold)
eb:

Yeah, just like Philly.

In Baghdad, the Brookings Institution's Iraq Index estimates that 5,320 people are killed a month, meaning there were 53,200 murders between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006. (Brookings notes this number may be "too low since many murder victims are never taken to the morgue, but buried quickly and privately and therefore never recorded in official tallies.")*

*Think Progress

You really don't know what ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

You really don't know what you are talking about here. The reason Mexico is in the bad economic shape because it is following the socialist policies of the western European countries.

Posted by: LoveAmerica Immigrant

You are absolutly wrong here. There is nothing socialist about Mexico. In fact almost all of their policies mirror what conservatives want for our country. Miminmal taxation, minimal regulation, single party rule, abortion illegal, huge gaps of wealth between the rich and poor, no middle class and lots of poor cheap laborers and no significant human services...it's a Neocons dream an their citizens night mare.

<a href="http://thinkprogre... (Below threshold)
John Gillnitz:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/14/iraq-philadelphia-quagmire/
Usually Wizbang is one of the smarter right wing blogs. Not this time.

Can you imagine unemploymen... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

Can you imagine unemployment being 7.8% in the US right now? Correct me if I'm wrong, muirgeo, but if you don't have a job, you are going to have to get government aid, if you are getting government aid, (a.k.a. paid for doing nothing) why would you get a job?

Posted by: Logan

Logan,

If we calculated unemployment the same way the numbers would not be so different.

* Isn't it time to consider... (Below threshold)

* Isn't it time to consider pulling out?

i wasn't aware that the US military was occupying Philadelphia. it's hard to pull out of something you're not... in.

but, it's nice to see you're getting a good laugh over 377 dead Americans!

The evidence that the Europ... (Below threshold)
muirgeo:

The evidence that the European social democracies are worse off then us is lacking. When unemployed they still have health insurance. When employed they generally have 4 more weeks of vacation then ttheir USA counterparts.

See here.

<a href="http://thinkprogre... (Below threshold)
disgustipated:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/14/iraq-philadelphia-quagmire/

Rep. Steve King (R-IA) has also tried to claim that living in Washington, DC, is as dangerous as living in Iraq. Comparing the murder rate in any U.S. city with the situation in Baghdad only underscores how out-of-touch some conservatives are from the real situation on the ground in Iraq.

. . . Oh look. . . a doggy! Frogs are green! Sponges are alive. . . I hate Nancy Pelosi!!!

Very prescient analysis, Einstein.
What the hell is your point again?


It remained at a five ye... (Below threshold)
ahem:

It remained at a five year low of 7.8% USA unemployment is currently 4.4%, and many (on the left) are still saying that's too high.

Apples and oranges. The US uses a different standard to measure unemployment.

Hey, here's an idea; how ab... (Below threshold)
David:

Hey, here's an idea; how about one of you brave boys actually enlist in the armed forces and go fight in the war you support?

Thanks for listening, cowards!

"Prior surges in the homici... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

"Prior surges in the homicide rate had easy explanations. Gangs. Crack. The economy.
"Not this time.
"I don't think anybody could just give an instant answer," said State Rep. Dwight Evans, a Philadelphia Democrat who has been leading antiviolence efforts.
Experts find clues in police statistics. Seventy percent of Philadelphia's homicides involved young men in arguments. Some argued over drugs, but many feuded for far less."

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/violence/13524288.htm

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS - murigeo is wrong again!!

Yes, I quoted a DEMocrat - not a Republican you can disagree with.

I've been to Iraq, spent mo... (Below threshold)
Iraq participant:

I've been to Iraq, spent more than a year there as a contractor, mostly in the Green Zone, and as recently as this June.

Comparing any American city to Baghdad is a sign of stupidity. The only relatively safe place is in the Kurdish regions, there are still kidnappings and car bombs even in Erbil and Sulymaniyah on occasion.

Baghdad and the rest of Iraq is a hell on earth. Every day you hear explosions from car bombs, mortars and rockets. The Iraqis I worked with were in constant fear - many had had close calls with car bombs and mortars, and militia and police. In addition, they say it is very common to find several bodies dumped on your street in the morning.

The death rate by violence is so far ahead of anywhere in the USA. The extremity and randomness of the violence - you have to fear militias, the police and criminals - is driving Iraqis with any means out of the country.

My goodness, you people are... (Below threshold)
IH8GOD:

My goodness, you people are stupid. Comparing Baghdad to Philadelphia...honestly.

Are any of your fools wibbl... (Below threshold)
So Very Sick:

Are any of your fools wibbling on about the second ammendment going to address the fact that...

THE INITIAL COMPARISON IS COMPLETELY WRONG AND THE MURDER RATE FOR IRAQ IS MASSIVELY HIGHER THAN FOR PHILADELPHIA?

After that, we can then look at the ownership rates of firearms in Iraq. But for now...

PHILADELPHIA: 337 PER YEAR
IRAQ: 5320 PER MONTH
http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index20060223.pdf

I know you want to lecture "the left" on being stupid: But you can start by proving you know how to debate properly in the first place.

this post plumbs new depths... (Below threshold)

this post plumbs new depths of cupidity AND stupidity.

Comparing Philly's 355 homicides this year to Baghdad's 1000s of homicides, kidnappings, sectarian militias, roadside bombs, suicide bombings, and car bombings is beyond the pale and the mark of a very unserious person. What's your point? "B'duh, Philly's violent too"?

GBD Central Texas asks whether Philly's gun control laws are some of the toughest in the nation. That is emphatically not so: Philly doesn't have tough gun control laws. It's very easy to get a gun here, and if you can't buy one yourself, there's always an enterprising young straw dealer happy to fill your needs.

I live in Philly, in one of the more dangerous neighborhoods, but it's nothing like Iraq here.
Dumbass.

uh... a map of this size wi... (Below threshold)
David2:

uh... a map of this size with the murder rate in Bagdad would be SOLID BLOOD RED you would need to project it in 3D, 150 layers deep to read the individual dots, like this map. The murder rate in Bagdad is around 5300 a month (that they know about). This map shows 337 1st-3rdQ, 2006, deaths in Philly Cheese. During the Jan - Oct. 31, 2006, at least 47,700 people have died in Bagdad.


Sectarian death squads roam the street killing and kindapping indiscrimitly.


your comparison to inner city drug and gun violence in Philly is pretty weak

"Do you liberal's really th... (Below threshold)
dagdag:

"Do you liberal's really think that the terroritsts are the only ones capapble of building a bomb."

I love reasoning like this. I would almost guarandamtee this person believes that "liberal's" are crazy to be against profiling.

Because a pregnant woman would never attempt to hijack an airliner, so let's let them all through and get straight to them A-rabs, right scrapiron? oh wait...that actually happened once...

Profiling is dumb! Except when it's smart!

My god, just when I thought... (Below threshold)
JesusCrispy:

My god, just when I thought you couldn't get dumber, a post comparing Philly to Baghdad. Jesus, as far as credible numbers minimally 1% of the prewar Iraqi population has been killed. Imagine if all the people in Arkansas had been killed since the beginning of the war. We may be upset. Of course, using your numbers the vast majority of those killed in Iraq are brown and only count 160:1.

Who's comparing? I'm just... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

Who's comparing? I'm just saying that we should cut and run because THERE'S NO WAY WE'RE GONNA WIN IT.

There is NO HOPE for Philad... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

There is NO HOPE for Philadelphia.

Hey, you guys are famous on... (Below threshold)
Zelda:

Hey, you guys are famous on ThinkProgress!! And you look like idiots!

FACT CHECK: Baghdad Murder Rate Is 160 Times Greater Than Philadelphia
In a post this morning, Wizbang blogger Alexander K. McClure compared the homicide rate in Philadelphia to the situation in Iraq:

Without looking at the URL or the headline at the top, try to figure out which city this is. Each red dot represents a murder in the past year. Isn't that a quagmire? Isn't it time to consider pulling out?

The city McClure pointed to is Philadelphia. It had 337 homicides between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006.

In Baghdad, the Brookings Institution's Iraq Index estimates that 5,320 people are killed a month, meaning there were 53,200 murders between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006. (Brookings notes this number may be "too low since many murder victims are never taken to the morgue, but buried quickly and privately and therefore never recorded in official tallies.")

Rep. Steve King (R-IA) has also tried to claim that living in Washington, DC, is as dangerous as living in Iraq. Comparing the murder rate in any U.S. city with the situation in Baghdad only underscores how out-of-touch some conservatives are from the real situation on the ground in Iraq.

Wow, this is the dumbest po... (Below threshold)
CKT:

Wow, this is the dumbest post I have seen in a VERY, VERY long time. But to be honest, there is some value in the comparison. Philly, by anyone's standards, is a very dangerous place. It has one of the highest homicide rates of any US city. Yet, the murder rate in Baghdad is 160 TIMES the homocide rate than that of Philly. That is, for every homocide in Philly, there are 160 in Baghdad. And that estimate is a bare minimum; the actual homocide rate is probably a lot higher given that many homocides are not reported to authorities.

I would like to see a map of Philly showing the locations of all IED explosions, car bombs, massive grave burial sites, and kidnappings of 50+ people at a time over the last nine months. Or maybe Alexander might be willing just to list the number of IED explosions in Philly per month for 2006. I'm sure it's not too different from Baghdad. Couldn't be, right?

Whoa. I knew this was goin... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Whoa. I knew this was going to be moonbat bait, but no idea they would be so much fun.

I don't recall reading abou... (Below threshold)
Zelda:

I don't recall reading about 100 plus people being kidnapped from a government building in Philly while the police stand idly by. And I also don't recall hearing about everyday citizens of Philly having their names and addresses tattooed on their thighs so that their bodies can be identified if they get executed on the streets. I also don't think the morgues of Philadelphia are overflowing with decaying bodies. Oh, and last I heard, Philadelphia has electricity 24/7. So, I guess, yeah, I'd have to say that Baghdad is at least a BIT worse off than Philadelphia.

There are some SERIOUSLY co... (Below threshold)
karatebreakfast:

There are some SERIOUSLY confused folks on this site. The Second Amendment is about leaving open the possibility that citizens will once again have to revolt against a tyrannical government. Do some of you "Conservatives" actually believe that Democrats and/or "Liberals" will be the ones to produce such a government?! You know...us America-hating terrorists who don't think George Bush should have the power to disappear people who have not been found guilty of a crime? Who think the President should not be able to simply say, "Nahh...i don't think i'll follow that law..."? Y'all's freaking idiot President has ALREADY implicitly claimed the ability to SEIZE YOUR FIREARMS and have you put in solitary confinement forever. Do you really not understand that? Jesus Christ.

SCSIwuzzy,Yeah, an... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

SCSIwuzzy,

Yeah, and I thought our regular moonbat trolls were crazy! They got nuttin' on this new batch.

"Without looking at the URL... (Below threshold)
Eric:

"Without looking at the URL or the headline at the top, try to figure out which city this is. Each red dot represents a murder in the past year. Isn't that a quagmire? Isn't it time to consider pulling out?"

Philly -- 337 homicides between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006...

Baghdad -- 5000+ homicides per month...

Alexander K. McClure -- Not the sharpest knife in the drawer...

Skeik,What is it abo... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Skeik,
What is it about the progressive mind that misses satirical intent? Exageration? Some, I think, probably beleive that Swift liked young flesh.
I also love the logic that you can win an arguement by being as purposely offensive as possible.
A shame really, when you see a valid point invalidated by spiteful rhetoric or the choice of a screen name that they think will offend (based on their preconcieved notions of who post here).
It's like Borat, but without being on purpose.

Comparing the two cities ha... (Below threshold)
Anon:

Comparing the two cities has other faulty reasoning besides the others listed. The advances in medicine has dramatically reduced the numbers killed in US wars but if one were to compare lost limbs or some mental disorder of soldiers, the results would show the tragedy.

You moonbats are a bunch of... (Below threshold)
gunza:

You moonbats are a bunch of idiots. You are all saying that you are talking about murder rates of Philadelphia and Baghdad, but you are actually talking about total numbers of murders. You forget that Baghdad actually is a lot bigger than Philadelpia. So of course you would expect to see more murders there than in Philly.

Also, I realize that Baghdad has a higher murder rate than Philly, but it's not as big as you're saying. It's also clear that there is a war going on in Baghdad. So of course it's going to be higher. This post is just satire. duh.

But there is another problem. The incarceration rate in Iraq is a lot less than it is in the US. This means that there are a lot of bad people walking Iraqi streets that shouldn't be otherwise.

gunza, I'm glad you see t... (Below threshold)
Anon:

gunza, I'm glad you see the satire but the truth is this garbage has been kicked around before. If I remember right it was in the Washington Post or (Times), and put out by a quack of a professor in demographics.

Yet another striking simila... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Yet another striking similarity between Philly and Baghdad: Residents of both cities consider the Iraq war to be a disastrous failure.

Murders in the U.S.<... (Below threshold)
Scapiron:


Murders in the U.S.

Murder in 2003: 16,528
Murder in 2004: 16,148
Murder in 2005: 16,692

Total Murders: 49,368

That's almost as many as the moonbats predicted would be killed during the invasion before an American set foot in Iraq. More Americans have been killed by falls in the bathtub than have been killed in two wars in the same time frame.

These have been the most effective wars ever fought when comparing fatilities, and if the dim's don't screw it up will result in freedom for over a hundred million people. Isn't that more than was freed in WWII? Just asking.

Over a 100 million people? ... (Below threshold)
Matt:

Over a 100 million people? WTF? The population of Iraq is less than 30 million. So multiply the number of murders you hear by 10 to get a comparable US figure...

If the liberals and their a... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

If the liberals and their attorneys representing the terrorists hadn't have forced us to release them, there would NOT be as many killers on the streets of Bagdad.

Thanks again you libs.

Why aren't the moonbat libs... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

Why aren't the moonbat libs in here crying for the mayors head? He lied and he's incompetent.

Maybe the cold silence is because the mayor is another liberal?

Your a complete imbecile. ... (Below threshold)
Julie:

Your a complete imbecile. Comparing a few hundred murders in Philadelphia a year to the thousand which happen each month in Iraq is outlandish, simple minded bullshit.

Creative thinking... moonba... (Below threshold)
kklylu:

Creative thinking... moonbat insults, huh? Wow, those are some really strong words - I think you must have permanently damaged people's self esteem for using such dirty and demeaning names. Give me a break! Too bad people outside your small circle of right wing radicals don't even get the whole "moonbat" reference.

BTW

Not every Conservative is an Islamic Extremist -
But every Islamic Extremist is a Conservative

That's dumb. As a ... (Below threshold)
Josh Davis:

That's dumb.

As a country, our police have an obligation to combat crime in one of our own cities. Fighting crime in an American city is called law enforcement - fighting violence in a foreign country is called war.

To Scrapiron... (Below threshold)
Candy Hand Grenade:

To Scrapiron


WOW, YOU ARE CRAZY! I MEAN, AS CRAZY AS I HAVE EVER SEEN. ALL I CAN SAY IS HOLY FUCKING SHIT YOU ARE A CRACK POT.

there sure are alot of peop... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

there sure are alot of people in here that are not even Americans.

We should treat Philadelphia terrorists just like Iraqi terrrorists.... cut and run!!

"WOW, YOU ARE CRAZY! I MEAN... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

"WOW, YOU ARE CRAZY! I MEAN, AS CRAZY AS I HAVE EVER SEEN. ALL I CAN SAY IS HOLY FUCKING SHIT YOU ARE A CRACK POT."

Well, that's some mighty deep thought you have there CandyHandGrenade (whatever that means).

Fact is, scrapiron is very knowledgable and has more wisdom than half the people on this blog.

"Comparing a few hundred mu... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

"Comparing a few hundred murders in Philadelphia a year to the thousand which happen each month in Iraq is outlandish, simple minded bullshit.
Posted by: Julie at November 14, 2006 07:49 PM"

It might matter if just one of them few hundred was you.

I also assume that you HATE FDR because if not for his hesitation going into WWII MAYBE 65MILLION (no not a few thousand) PEOPLE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN KILLED.

Stupidity reigns. FDR coul... (Below threshold)
Wow:

Stupidity reigns. FDR could not declare war. Congress would not declare war. And just how the hell is this relevent?

"Fact is, scrapiron is very... (Below threshold)
Rob:

"Fact is, scrapiron is very knowledgable and has more wisdom than half the people on this blog."

Well, he's certainly chock-full of truthiness.

Every single sentence in his post, after "49,638" and before "Just asking," was a factual error. All of them.

He certainly misinforms with sincerity, though. He'll make a fine Republican congressman some day.

Really? Roosevelt was "hesi... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Really? Roosevelt was "hesitant" going into WW II?

Please cite the data on which you base this rather curious observation.

"He certainly misinforms... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"He certainly misinforms with sincerity, though."

It's just the cheap vodka talking.

Scrappy is just a harmless liar. You'll learn to just ignore his drunken rants after a while...

The population of Baghdad i... (Below threshold)
Robert:

The population of Baghdad is approximately 5,750,000. Phillie is about 1,500,000. Even allowing that Baghdad is larger, it is still radically more dangerous. If there were a dot for every murder, it would be one solid stain of bloody red. But it's all a game for the 101st Chairborne, isn't it? You're all cackling away while American soldiers are caught in the crossfire of a civil war.

If this is what passes for ... (Below threshold)
shingles:

If this is what passes for wit on the right side of the blogosphere, then damn, you guys are in far more trouble than you realize. I believe that humor is suppose to actually be funny.

...or at least original.<br... (Below threshold)
shingles:

...or at least original.

Off the web this morning...... (Below threshold)
Reality check:

Off the web this morning....
"In Baghdad, the Brookings Institution's Iraq Index estimates that 5,320 people are killed a month, meaning there were 53,200 murders between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006."

So Philly has 337 in the same period that Iraq has at least 53,200...that is 157.8 times more or on a month to month it would be 33.7, a little over 1 murder a day vs. 5320 or 177.3 murders a day....yes, great comparrison! You make your math teacher so proud!

Please re read this post fr... (Below threshold)
jvf:

Please re read this post from Iraq Participant

"...Comparing any American city to Baghdad is a sign of stupidity....Baghdad and the rest of Iraq is a hell on earth..."

No wonder you clowns got blown out in the election.

I see that the terrorists h... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

I see that the terrorists had their brainwashed monkeys at work.

"Really? Roosevelt was "hesitant" going into WW II?

Please cite the data on which you base this rather curious observation.
Posted by: Rob at November 14, 2006 09:38 PM"

1939:
Hitler "invaded" Austria and Chechoslovakia.

The world did nothing (except for the beginning of the "Phoney war".

1940:
Hitler invaded Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Luxemburg, Netherlands and France (not all countries are listed).

FDR still did nothing.

Hitler invaded N. Africa, Yugoslavia, Greece (not all countries are listed).

FDR still did nothing.

In fact, FDR did NOTHING despite the fact that Germany signed the International Hague Convention - yet violated it.

UNTIL THE END of 1941.

Tell me, how many millions of lives would have been saved if FDR had acted sooner as GW Bush did?

Yeah, thought so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_II
http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/finding-aid/military/toc.html

UUgggh - Libs bad - dems ba... (Below threshold)
Oaktree:

UUgggh - Libs bad - dems bad - Gdub guud -uuuggghgowaw!!

Jeebus people - for factual clarification - useless war on drugs - republican. Throwing a huge blunt instrument (the military) at a problem that didn't exist there (iraq) instead of small scale, ultra informed through humint (that's human intelligence) surgical strike force teams that could be deployed anywhere in the world quickly and quietly - republican. Building halliburton detention camps in america for "illegal influx" (riiiiight) - republican. Repressive civil liberties - republican. No habeus corpus, and that includes citizens - republican. If they haven't been convicted / indicted / tried / for anything how do we KNOW they are terrorists? Answer - we DON'T! Your guns won't save you - the military has more. And now that gdumbya has signed his latest act, they can be used on american soil. Wake. The. Fuck. Up. And dems aren't gonna be any better...same coin, different side. Time to rise up and toss them ALL out, start over.

Hey Exec - how many million... (Below threshold)
Oaktree:

Hey Exec - how many millions of lives would have been saved if Prescott Bush wasn't a war profiteer (can you say Dick Cheney?) financing hitlers war machine? Funny how these despots are our friends when they are making our elites money (saddam, hitler, noriega) until it becomes a losing bet. Maybe FDR wouldn't have had to wait or invade if people and corporations like that had been put down like the mongrels they are. And I suppose you would like FDR, like Gdub, to join in the war even though the american public didn't want to? Until Pearl Harbor (can you say station H, yes they knew the japanese were coming, why else did they move the best and newest ships out just two days before and pack the rest into a harbor - easy pickings and not military protocol?) the american public wanted nothing to do with wwII. History, people, you can learn from it. Funny how it repeats itself...

"how many millions of lives... (Below threshold)
theExecutioners:

"how many millions of lives would have been saved if Prescott Bush wasn't a war profiteer"

How can millions of lives be saved if they weren't lost in the first place. Stop smoking that stuff. You are posting embarressingly stupid comments and wasting our time.

"And I suppose you would like FDR, like Gdub, to join in the war even though the american public didn't want to?"

You are talking nonsense - probably because you're so brainwashed that your talking points are melding together...

Fact is, FDR was one of the worst presidents we ever had and his socialist tendencies slowed the recovery of the country to a snails pace. It's sad that WWII pulled us out economically. We would have been MUCH stronger had his socialist programs not been enacted. GW Bush has learned from FDR NOT to repeat history - and it's a good thing we haven't.

Yes, that's what a great leader does (the correct thing).

correction:"And I ... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

correction:

"And I suppose you would like FDR, like Gdub, to join in the war even though the american public didn't want to?"

Yes, that's what a great leader does (the correct thing).

I just saw Levin on CNN. ... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

I just saw Levin on CNN. He was so stupid that he couldnt' answer the simple question, "How will pulling out of Iraq appear to Iran and N. Korea?"

America voted for some VERY stupid people and we will pay for it. Just a matter of time.

A great leader, especially ... (Below threshold)
Oaktree:

A great leader, especially in a DEMOCRACY does what the PEOPLE want, not what HE wants. THAT my friend is the problem here. OF, BY, and FOR the PEOPLE. Why can't conservatives understand that? true conservatism = keep the government the FUCK out of my life. They are elected by us to do OUR wishes, not theirs.

"How can millions of lives be saved if they weren't lost in the first place. Stop smoking that stuff. You are posting embarressingly stupid comments and wasting our time."

What? talk about stupid and embarrassing. So you are denying the facts of history? You need to smoke MORE of whatever your smoking, or get a better source.

The correct thing - invading a country that hadn't killed any americans in decades, had no WMD, had no sectarian violence, had NOTHING to do with 9/11 - wow, sounds like the correct choice to me. Wouldn't a more "Correct" choice been to invade somebody that was actually a threat and / or supported the people who did 9/11, like say Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Syria? Our "correct" choice has gotten us what - massive debt, lessened stature in the eyes of the world, 2800+ dead fine americans, a military demoralized and in shambles so much so that we can't react should something else come up (like Iran, NK), hundreds of thousands of dead innocent iraqis, nukes in NK, nukes in Iran, Osama Bin doin laundry or wherever the fuck he is, and Osamas wet dream of a whole country to train terrorists in under battle conditions - great choice, stick with it.

"A great leader, especially... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

"A great leader, especially in a DEMOCRACY does what the PEOPLE want, not what HE wants."

1) A great leader SWEARS AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION - NOT THE PEOPLE.

2) "DEMOCRACY" No. We are GUARANTEED a REPUBLIC, NOT a democracy.

Go back to school. Better yet, DON'T. You'll be brainwashes some more. Get with it so you don't embarress yourself.

I won't waste my time corre... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

I won't waste my time correcting all the mistakes in your posts except to say 3,000 is a WHOLE LOT LESS THAN THE 65 MILLION the world lost under FDR in WWII.

It's been admitted that some in this blog are NOT EVEN AMERICANS. Yet, they are here to attempt to brainwash the ignorant - and it seems to be working.

"America voted for some ver... (Below threshold)
Deo:

"America voted for some very stupid people..."

Yeah. We seem to do that an awful lot, don't we? Fortunately, it seems that we've learned a lesson and voted for some smarter ones last week. But we will still have to pay the price for the stupid ones we elected in 2000.

I think that comparing any American city to Iraq is just bizarrely out of touch with reality. I doubt that anyone will accept my challenge, but I offer it sincerely: I will go and stand on any street corner of your choice anywhere in the US from 6 AM to 6 PM local time if you will go stand on the street corner of *my* choice in Iraq for the same time period. I will pay my own travel costs, and can put up $2K towards yours.

Most US homicides are committed by someone known to the victim. Since you don't know where my ex-wife lives, I should be perfectly safe.

I rest my case. We should... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

I rest my case. We should pull out of Philadelphia. It's no different than Iraq - UNwinable.

Here's the big difference b... (Below threshold)
Robert:

Here's the big difference between Baghdad and Philadelphia. Philadelphia is part of the United States. People in Philadelphia pay taxes to the United States. Philadelphia is within the territorial borders of the United States. The United States is responsible for Philadelphia. Baghdad, on the other hand, is a city in another country. There are a lot of cities in a lot of countries that have crime rates similar to or worse than Philadelphia's. But so what? They aren't our responsibility or our problem. When did it become the Republican position to spend American money and American lives on policing cities in foreign countries that have nothing to do with ours?

If we don't go to Iraq, do ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

If we don't go to Iraq, do the liberals expect that AlQ terrorists will simply go home and not trying to do their useful work somewhere else, including the US? Let 's say we don't go to Iraq, then the terrorists can focus their effort on attacking the US mainland. How many trillions of dollars we need to spend to protect the US? How many lives would have lost if the terrorists were to succeed only one more in the last 5 years?

When did it become the Repu... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

When did it become the Republican position to spend American money and American lives on policing cities in foreign countries that have nothing to do with ours?
-------------------------------------------------
Why did we spend money fighting WWII and rebuilding Europe? Why did we spend money in Bosnia, Kosovo? Why did we spend money on the totally corrupt UN?

YOU should go back to schoo... (Below threshold)
Oaktree:

YOU should go back to school - tell me, what are the first three words of the Constitution - WE THE PEOPLE . Therefore, you are swearing allegiance to, and are elected by, the will of the people, or be tossed out. We are GUARANTEED a republic, which (barely) functions under WHAT TYPE of governance - c'mon kiddies, you know the answer - A DEMOCRACY.

Typical wingnuttery - deny history, deny reality, and can't respond to criticism in any meaningful fashion.

Again:
Wouldn't a more "Correct" choice been to invade somebody that was actually a threat and / or supported the people who did 9/11, like say Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Syria? Our "correct" choice has gotten us what - massive debt, lessened stature in the eyes of the world, 2800+ dead fine americans, a military demoralized and in shambles so much so that we can't react should something else come up (like Iran, NK), hundreds of thousands of dead innocent iraqis, nukes in NK, nukes in Iran, Osama Bin doin laundry or wherever the fuck he is, and Osamas wet dream of a whole country to train terrorists in under battle conditions.

If you have facts that dispute those conditions above, I'd like to hear them.

For LoveAmerica: There wer... (Below threshold)
Oaktree:

For LoveAmerica: There were NO terrorists IN Iraq UNTIL we went there. NOW, yes, they could and would movon to bigger and better things should we turn tail and run. So, should we spend billions of dollars having Americans take off their shoes in airports, or perhaps spend that money on say protecting our borders, protecting nuclear/chemical/and oil facilities, inspecting shipping containers, or in other words actually protecting Americans instead of creating MORE terrorists, which will eventually come here. Do conservatives really think that AlQ terrorist are ALL going to run to Iraq and stay there, or is it possible they may "take a lesson" or two in Iraq and then bring that new found knowledge to our shores while we are still there?
THAT is the whole point - mismanagement of the threat. The threat of terrorism cannot be contained in one country, nor can it be defeated by a large, cumbersome military. These are small groups of individual cells that COULD be defeated by more non-politicized intelligence gathering and small surgical task forces that could go to their fucking homes and take them out

You are no American. Amer... (Below threshold)
theExecutioner:

You are no American. Americans abide by the Constitution and put it first - not their political party. We ARE GUARANTEED a REPUBLIC - it's as simple as that. As I said, go back to school.

Nobody's looking....<... (Below threshold)
ag:

Nobody's looking....

Crap boobs crap hell damn!

Wow! slightly more than 30... (Below threshold)
DKirk:

Wow! slightly more than 300 murders in one year for Philadelphia? That's a lot. Still safer than Baghdad though...there in Baghdad it only takes them a couple of days to get up to 300 murders.

I don't blame any of you th... (Below threshold)
Dave:

I don't blame any of you that still support this war for doing so. You have your reasons and some of them are valid. But to make this argument that Philly is worse then Baghdad is just beyond ignorant, it is insulting to the men and women fighting every day there. To make a joke or light of what is currently going on shows how truly delusional some of you are. People are scared to leave their homes, neighborhoods are firing mortars at each other and thousands are dying and you make light of it all. I don't think your bad people for supporting the war, I think your bad people for having no soul.

"There were 337 murders ... (Below threshold)

"There were 337 murders in Philly between Jan. 1, 2006 and Oct. 1, 2006. The Brookings Institute reports that there are over 5000 murders MONTHLY in Baghdad."

Yup. Right-wing moonbats can't do math --which explains why they can't balance the budget, figure out how many troops it takes to occupy Iraq, or how much body armor our troops require.

They can spell "Macaca," though.

Thank God there finally will be some adult supervision over these clowns...

The rise in the murder rate... (Below threshold)
Naveen:

The rise in the murder rate in Philadelphia has risen every year since George W. Bush became president (after a decade of historic low crime rate during the 90's).

So you're right: Philly and Baghdad are the same!

The premise of the post tha... (Below threshold)
JT:

The premise of the post that started this is flawed. No US city have close to the murder rate of Baghad (the rate in Bagdad is 15 to 50 times higher per person than Philadelphia).

Please learn basic math before posting nonsense.




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