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Charlie Rangel Wants to Institute the Democrats' Favorite Scare Tactic

In the run up to the 2004 presidential election, leftists started an internet rumor that President Bush and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld would reinstate the draft in order to fight their "illegal" war. Now that the Democrats have majorities in both houses of Congress, guess what Democrat Charlie Rangel wants to do? Yep, you got it. Reinstate the draft:

Americans would have to sign up for a new military draft after turning 18 if the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee has his way.


Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., said Sunday he sees his idea as a way to deter politicians from launching wars and to bolster U.S. troop levels insufficient to cover potential future action in Iran, North Korea and Iraq.

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said.

Rangel, a veteran of the Korean War who has unsuccessfully sponsored legislation on conscription in the past, said he will propose a measure early next year.

In 2003, he proposed a measure covering people age 18 to 26. This year, he offered a plan to mandate military service for men and women between age 18 and 42; it went nowhere in the Republican-led Congress.

Democrats will control the House and Senate come January because of their victories in the Nov. 7 election.

At a time when some lawmakers are urging the military to send more troops to Iraq, "I don't see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft," said Rangel, who also proposed a draft in January 2003, before the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican who is a colonel in the U.S. Air Force Standby Reserve, said he agreed that the U.S. does not have enough people in the military.

"I think we can do this with an all-voluntary service, all-voluntary Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy. And if we can't, then we'll look for some other option," said Graham, who is assigned as a reserve judge to the Air Force Court of Criminal Appeals.

Rangel, the next chairman of the House tax-writing committee, said he worried the military was being strained by its overseas commitments.

"If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft," Rangel said.

He said having a draft would not necessarily mean everyone called to duty would have to serve. Instead, "young people (would) commit themselves to a couple of years in service to this great republic, whether it's our seaports, our airports, in schools, in hospitals," with a promise of educational benefits at the end of service.

Graham said he believes the all-voluntary military "represents the country pretty well in terms of ethnic makeup, economic background."

A military draft won't have a snowball's chance in hell because supporting the idea would be political suicide. But leave it to a Democrat to announce something like this.

Again, I ask: buyer's remorse, anyone?

Don%27t%20Blame%20Me.jpg


Update: Allahpundit has video of Charlie Rangel discussing his brilliant idea on Face the Nation and also writes this:

With talk now of Bush sending 20,000 more troops to Iraq and Zinni and Batiste telling the Times that withdrawal would be disastrous, doves need to recapture the momentum. Enter the draft bill, which is doomed to fail but at least gives the media a few weeks of material with which to dissuade anyone leaning towards redoubling our efforts to win this thing.

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Comments (65)

Rangel's been saying this f... (Below threshold)
jpe:

Rangel's been saying this for years. Either you don't pay attention or this is a really badly designed gotcha post.

Hey, slack off. Let Rangel ... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Hey, slack off. Let Rangel introduce the bill and let the dimwit's pass it. Contact every republican in congress and ask them to abstain from every vote. Let it be a 100% dimwit bill. The only comment a republican politician should have is (hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil) 'no comment'. If this tactic is successful the republicans won't have to campaign in 08, just set back and get elected.

As we've been saying, this election will be a real comedy for the next two years.

Peeeloshi has been renamed by a liberal rep on FOX news. She is now 'The Wicked Witch Of The West'. Pass it on. ROFL

Let Rangel introdu... (Below threshold)
jpe:
Let Rangel introduce the bill and let the dimwit's pass it.

This has been Rangel's hobbyhorse for years, and doesn't represent the policy of the Democratic Party. But keep drooling over scenarios that'll never come to pass if that's what it takes to make you happy.

Fine Charlie, but no deferm... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

Fine Charlie, but no deferments. And no skipping the military by joining other public service organizations. Lets have a 16+ million strong Army.

Rangel is so full of shit. The Republicans ought to call him on that just for shits and giggles.

"especially on t... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:


"especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress,"


Never do they miss an opportunity to lie their asses off. The dumbass probably said "THE STAINED BLUE DRESS" was the flimsiest of evidence also. The filtiest of evidence would be more correct. How much longer does America have to suffer these traitorous criminal frauds?

jpe : My point exactly. Ra... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

jpe : My point exactly. Rangel has been screaming this for years and Peeeloshi (The Wicked Witch Of The West) puts him in a leadership position. The republican members of congress should stick him with this bill. Or maybe like the last time the idiot won't vote for his own bill.

We're having great fun with this election cycle, not so for the leftie's. Even winning with anti-American losers is a downer that they can't excape even in they're their drug induced state.

All Charlie Rangel does is ... (Below threshold)
Thor-Zone:

All Charlie Rangel does is throw bombs at the people with ideas about how to move this country forward. Mr. Rangel's greatest skills lay in being able to dismantle something that works well.

The all volunteer U.S. military is the best military organization in the history of the world. We have something like 1.5 or 2 million people protecting 300 million Americans. If you add the rest of the world's population who also depends on our military the number is in the billions. That really says something.

You have to remember, we have not lost a single military encounter in Iraq or Afghanistan. We have had people die, but the men and women in our military have totally opened up a can of whoop ass on our enemies (hat tip to everyone in the US military).

Requiring people who do not want to be there to serve will dumb it down and will significantly lower military performance. If the draft passes, we are taking one of the only things in government that works and will reduce it to a level of performance we see with the rest of the government programs.

Charlie Rangel is a dope. I don't ever recall anything remotely resembling an intelligent thought come from that man. This is just the latest in a long line of idiotarian ideas which he loves to promote.

The one thing Rangel doesn'... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:

The one thing Rangel doesn't take into consideration is the fact the military branches DO NOT want draftees.

I joined the Army in 1979 and went to the 82nd Airborne Division for my first assignment. I really, really hate to say this but the Army was really broke down in those days. Drugs were still part of the culture and anyone that served in the 82nd back in those days can verify that the Divisions nickname was the "Jumpin Junkies".

I got out in 1982 after my term and moved home to Norwalk Ohio where the unemployment was a staggering 20%, as part of the early 80's rust belt.

After a year of working the job I had in high school I went back in and never looked back. I watched the military do a 180 and transform into the lean, mean fight'in machine that it is now. Thank you President Reagan. I retired in 2000.

As the saying goes, a unit is only as strong as it's weakest link. Now imagine the disciplinary problems associated with druggies and moonbat hippies that do not want to be there. Why change it from a Professional Army to just an Army for the sake of filling it with bodies to fill the ranks.

Those that volunteer do what they do and obey orders because they want to be there. If we are fully engaged in WW3 and the left finally gets it then, then let them volunteer.

BTW, my son graduates from Basic Training next week at Fort Benning, GA. Then he's off to Fort Sill for AIT, for MOS 13F (Artillery Forward Observer) then back to Fort Benning for Airborne School. Then destination unknown.

Though his letters he is motivated and driving on to do his best. I can't imagine that type of letter to home from a draftee that did not want to be there.

~All the Way, Airborne~

Thor-Zone,<blockquote... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Thor-Zone,

The all volunteer U.S. military is the best military organization in the history of the world.

You are spot on. Knowing that some liberals want to derail this country's military power, it seems logical for them to want to bring back the draft.

If this nation needs more young people in the military then we should up the rewards. Besides pay, then going forward let every military veteran be exempt from federal income tax for every year they were on active duty. Each individual gets to pick when they will use that benefit. This should attract young men and women from higher economic backgrounds given the tax benefit is greatest for those who expect to make the most money. It's a win win deal, both to attract young folks into the military and for the nation. Not only do we get their service, the cost is deferred to the future, but in such a way that likely stimulates the economy. If we are going to give tax cuts, then who better to give them to than those willing to put their lives on the line for the rest of us.

Is it possible to send Rang... (Below threshold)
Carl:

Is it possible to send Rangel over to Iraq or Afghanistan as a truck driver for an independent company for two years AFTER he has to live in rural Wayne County, Mississippi for two prior years?

Thanks Carl, forgot about t... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Thanks Carl, forgot about the idiots remarks about Mississippi in his drive to suck up more homeland security money.

I guess like Hanoi John his remark (a joke) was misunderstood and the republican took advantage of it.

There is an important diffe... (Below threshold)

There is an important difference between Rangel's previous calls for a draft and the current one.

Remember, he originally decided to propose the bill to keep the unsubstantiated rumor alive that Bush would institute a draft after the 2004 election. Introducing such a bill was an easy way to get publicity and slap at the Administration from the minority.

Now, Charlie is no longer just a big-mouthed huckster from Harlem. He's the incoming Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee. His hands control the purse strings now. Those who fail to cooperate with him may find their favorite projects don't make it to the House floor.

Charlie is suddenly just like E.F. Hutton: when he talks, people listen.

;-)

Good ole Chuckie Rangel is ... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Good ole Chuckie Rangel is just trying to screw up the military. Period.

F**K HIM!!

All Rangel is doing is call... (Below threshold)
civil behavior:

All Rangel is doing is calling the Republicans bluff.

Everyone knows that war is good business as long as their kids aren't having to do the fighting.

Let them institute a draft and see how much more reticent the war profiteers would be if their kids were on the firing line.

The less employable, the poorer kids, the ethnic nationals are the ones asked to sacrifice in the name of good business, war business.

Jumpinjoe wonders why we would want to change it from a professionre army to just an army for the sake of filling it with bodies. Why? Because if we did chickenhawks would be going too and war would become extinct.

Hmm, such a solution probably rankles all you warriors out there but someday the peacemakers will inherit the earth as evolution will take place and hunting and killing people will go out of fashion. The power of the peacemaker will be legitimized and recognized as the natural way of solving porblems by attacking the issues not the messenger.

Just because war has been used in the past doesn't mean it is the vision of the future.

And if you are all so worried about the "terrorists" you might begin by asking yourself if our country was attacked by a foreign militia to change our way of governing in order to secure resources for their use would you be using any and all methods to repel them even to the extent of seeking out the invaders in their own turf?

Don't lie, each one of you know you would think differently if the tables were reversed. No diffrent than what Rangel is doing. He's telling republicans to put up or shut up. Turn the tables and see how quickly the loud mouths are willing to pay their debts.

P.S. It's really not necessary for me to post all the bush administration officials who never served to prove my point now is it.

civil behavior,You... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

civil behavior,

Your entire screed is so typical of the naive fools who grow up apart from the reality of the real world. That reality is rooted in human nature and there will always be some willing to use force to gain wealth and power. The response to such people is to either submit or fight. Any young man who's been the target of a bully soon learns that lesson. Maybe you need to experience that first hand to understand why the U.S. needs to be willing to fight rather than submit. History has proven over and over that peace comes from strength and never from weakness.

Like Rangel, you believe that conservatives wouldn't want to fight wars if we had to do the fighting, but many of us are veterans and have children in the military. What we don't want to do is pollute the military with people who don't want to be there and are a liability to others.

Let Rangel propose his draft bill. The GOP should than counter with the federal tax incentive I expressed above. That incentive would attract young adults from economically advantaged backgrounds, the very people Rangel wants to see in the military.

Add "civil behavior" to the... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Add "civil behavior" to the club for those with shit for brains.

All Rangel is doin... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:
All Rangel is doing is calling the Republicans bluff

What bluff is that? I missed the details. Quite frankly it is Rangel's bluff using a scare tactic to keep the military loathing lefties riled up.

Of course Rangel wants you to believe that his draft bill is to even out the poor verses rich in the ranks of the military. This is just pure B.S.

The less employable, the poorer kids, the ethnic nationals are the ones asked to sacrifice in the name of good business, war business

Thanks for the example of the total misconception.

As I stated in my post, my only son is in Basic Training right now. I did spent most of all my adult years in the Army myself, however my civilian life has been fruitful. I own two outdoor outfitting stores and this winter will be working on my third. My son has worked for me since high school and made very good money for someone his age. In fact he took more than half a pay cut to join.

Your talking point may have held up 20+ years ago, but in order to be successful in the military you cannot be a dummy no matter what your economic conditions were before you went in.

Everyone I associated with came from middle to upper middle class families. That doesn't mean poorer people weren't joining too for various reasons, it just means you are buying into Rangel's myth. (And John Kerry's)

So in a nutshell, that talking point self life has expired.

Hmm, such a solution probably rankles all you warriors out there but someday the peacemakers will inherit the earth as evolution will take place and hunting and killing people will go out of fashion

That is pure stereotyping of those who understand the threat. WAR! WAR! WAR! KILL! KILL! KILL! Yeah buddy, cha-ching! MONEY! MONEY! MONEY! MONEY!

The difference with this enemy is while you are sticking a daisy in his gun barrel, he has no problem pulling the trigger.

The difference between us is right now I understand what's happening in the world of "jihad" and understand they don't negotiate.

You on the other will learn when it becomes all too obvious, but then it will be too late.


civil behavior: You are rea... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

civil behavior: You are really screwed up. The republicans are no longer the rich and famous, but is now made up of the working class that has always protected this country and as a fact, built the country. The rich and famous class that have never worked a day in their lives and aren't willing to protect even they're own families now belongs to the dim's. Sometime in the past 30 years the parties have switched rolls. Now it's the dim's that don't want their children to serve, unless it's serving drugs at a party.

This election just produces more comedy every day as the idiots come out of the closet. You won the election, now produce a result that doesn't get millions killed in the U.S. I don't think you are any more capable of it now than you were in the 90's.

I get a good laugh every day just thinking about the dim's protecting the country. Like the 90's we will have terrorist freely attending flight schools all over the country, but they won't want to learn to land the aircraft, just crash them into buildings.

The republicans will not support the draft but I hope they stay quite and abstain from all votes and let the dim's hang themselves. Save us a lot of rope and trouble later.

Jumpinjoe wonders ... (Below threshold)
Marc:
Jumpinjoe wonders why we would want to change it from a professionre army to just an army for the sake of filling it with bodies. Why? Because if we did chickenhawks would be going too and war would become extinct. Posted by: civil behavior
War... Extinct?

How extinct was war during the draft years of the Vietnam era?

CB, you're a delusional moron.

Not one of you has the slig... (Below threshold)
civil behavior:

Not one of you has the slightest interest in understanding the other cultures in this world. Not one of you has any concept of the word peacemaking.

Your world is very small. It relates only to the American nationalist warrior state and the kill or be killed mentality no matter that the reason for the killings are the result of years of failed AMERICAN foreign policy, most particularly the last six years. No admittance that America has been a rogue state for years.

Your inability to see the relevance of our actions and the resulting consequences is just another example of small mindedness. Your exhortation that my opinion which has been validated by the last election and your appropriate trouncing wherein the people have chosen MY reality over yours for the sake of our children leads me to believe that this blog and others attract the most radical and fervent Bush groupies who are really the ones unable to admit their mistakes ust like your leaader.

So as for all your attempt at rebuke I suggest you get out more. Try places outside of the US. See for yourself what is happening on the planet you live on. There are lots of problems but many of them have been brought on ourselves by the greed and hubris that has decapitated the sense of community that used to exist in this country. We have exported attitudes and insolence not respect for others and justice for all.

Rangel is spot on. Let the wealthy capitalists who are making the money on the blood and wasted treaseure ante up their young. Watch how quick they find a new business other than war machines to keep thier purses full.

Foolish Americans........

I'm enjoying civil behavior... (Below threshold)
Jo:

I'm enjoying civil behavior's "The Onion" type satires.

P.S. Someone needs to make those "Don't blame me" bumper stickers. Soon everyone will want one.

Maybe Charlie should just s... (Below threshold)
Jo:

Maybe Charlie should just set up a draft in Mississippi, because, you know, who the hell wants to live in Mississippi anyway?

CB, why is the liberal argu... (Below threshold)
LCDR MacKay:

CB, why is the liberal argument always about the kids??? Are we not adults that have enlisted into the military knowing full well the risks and challenges that we face ahead??? Why does it have to involve our parents??? Does everything we do have to involve our parents and if so, how come my parents can't be held responsible for me after I turn 18??? Also, are you saying that every rich, fat cat is a conservative Republican?? What about Hollyweird? Bill Gates? etc. You guys are living in a time warp from the 60's. We in the military don't want unwilling volunteers. We are just fine and don't need the liberal, PC touch.

Maybe Rangel heard Bush's b... (Below threshold)
Robert:

Maybe Rangel heard Bush's bullshit about the war in iraq being for the future of civilization.

Maybe he bought Bush's bullshit (I wouldn't think that would be such a stretch on this board).

Maybe Rangel knows we don't have enough troops to win the war over the future of civilization.

Or maybe he was just calling out the war supporters.

If the Right wants to callout rangel, all they need to do is have the college republicans march down to the recruiters office.

I know. You can file that last idea under "Fat Fuc**n' Chance".

Why does the right want us to lose the war over civilization??

This "get out in the world"... (Below threshold)

This "get out in the world" thing is a riot. In the "world" Pakistan just made (or is trying to make) RAPE illegal. They're trying to actually make it so investigators can look at forensic evidence instead of stoning a raped woman for adultry if she can't get four adult MALE witnessess to say it was rape.

THAT my dear delusional friend, is the real world.

All the sanctimonious preaching about love and brotherhood and blaming it on the isolation of us militant sorts takes no account of Pakistan, none of Dafur, none of most of the former Soviet Union, none of Central America, none of South Asia. The delusional ones are those sitting on their arses in the good old US of A talking about how *we* are the uncivilized, violent ones.

You know who "gets out?" People who join the military "get out" and see the real world. They live in Europe, in Japan, in Turkey... they go TDY to the sex pot and exploitation arm pits of the world and they see what other people in other places think about human dignity and the value of human life.

And even then... it doesn't take going there to see, all it would really take is watching the news and paying attention. Pay attention... read about overseas adoption to find out how people view the value of children in their own cultures who aren't there own. Think about what it means to the larger picture.

Oh sure... we're the cause of problems...

Idiot.

Oh, and demographic of mili... (Below threshold)

Oh, and demographic of military members, numbers darned easy to find, show exactly *who* is joining our military and it is not the poorest by any means. The poorest areas of the country, the poorest 20% geographically, contribute way less than 20%... something like 13% or so of recruits.

Civil Behavior could at least get easily obtained numbers correct.

The war has been lost. <a h... (Below threshold)
Lee:

The war has been lost. Bush's closest advisors are saying it publicly now.

Former Secretary of State Henry A. Kissinger, who regularly advises President Bush on Iraq, said today that a full military victory was no longer possible there. He thus joined a growing number of leading conservatives openly challenging the administration's conduct of the war and positive forecasts for it.

"If you mean, by 'military victory,' an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don't believe that is possible," Mr. Kissinger told BBC News.

Watching you political dinosaurs grazing on the day's headlines it is obvious that you guys will be the last to know. Last one to get it is a conservative!

The best news is that he even admits that there exists a civil war in Iraq now - not the "happy talking point" crap from the White House that the civil war is a figment of the Democrats' imaginations.

"Bush's closest advisor... (Below threshold)
Marc:

"Bush's closest advisors are saying it publicly now."

Kissinger is one of Bush's "closest advivors?"

Since when Lee? Have you seen him enter the White House of late? I'd ask you if your wiretap caught a conversation between the two but we KNOW that to be impossible.

And you have the nerve to call conservatives political dinosaurs. Kissinger hasn't been relative for a couple of decades.

Civil behavior:If "t... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Civil behavior:
If "the poorer kids are the ones asked to sacrifice in the name of good business, war business", then how do explain how recruitment from the richest 20% of the country has gone UP since 2000 (now providing 23% of all recruits), while recruitment from the poorest 20% has gone DOWN (providing only 13% of recruits)?

If "the less employable are the ones asked to sacrifice in the name of good business, war business", how do explain that 97% of recruits are HS grads, compared to 80% of the general population? And that recruits have a mean reading level a full grade level above their peers?

If "the ethnic nationals are the ones asked to sacrifice in the name of good business, war business", then how do you explain that both African-Americans and Hispanics are UNDERrepresented in the military compared to the population at large?

And how do explain that all of these standards are IMPROVING as time goes on?

When Rangel (and 14 Dem co-... (Below threshold)

When Rangel (and 14 Dem co-sponsors) proposed the bill to reinstate the draft it was called up in '04 for an immediate vote. Rangel called it a "dirty trick", even though it proved just how little support there was for it and it subsequently squashed the rumors that it was Bush's or the Republicans' idea. He should be chastizing John Kerry for that. Kerry was the one who kept insinuating during his campaign that Bush was thinking about re-instaing a draft. Hollings(D-SC) submitted an identical bill in '03 (with NO co-sponsors) which still sits there, dead on the floor.

Rangel said himself he introduced the bill to make a political point. And Rangel's own vote was - NAY.

The only two YEA votes were John Murtha and Pete Stark.

Now Rangel wants to pick this turd up off the floor, polish it off and submit it again?

Clueless liberal idiots. W... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Clueless liberal idiots. Words truly spoken by those with not a day of experience in uniform. Your bleeding heart myths would be funny if not so despicable.

'The power of the peacemaker will be legitimized and recognized as the natural way of solving porblems by attacking the issues not the messenger.'

What about when the 'message' is 'We want you all to die'?

The War is not lost, but you jackasses are certainly trying your damnedest to support the enemy.

Lee,So the left is... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Lee,

So the left is getting what they always wanted in Iraq, the failure of the U.S. to build a democratic nation where the people have hope for peace and prosperity. The lesson we have learned is that American voters don't have what it takes to win a protracted, nation building conflict. Next time the U.S. is attacked by terrorists hosted by some nation, all we can do is either take the hit without retaliating, or declare war and destroy that nation. We can no longer come as liberators, occupiers, or even as conquers, but only as destroyers. Whether that was the intent of liberals is irrelevant as it's the direct result of successfully derailing the nation building effort in Iraq. Something the insurgents couldn't have done without your help Lee.

(realizing that addressing ... (Below threshold)
Bo:

(realizing that addressing my left foot would be more productive...)

Lee, you seem to have completely ignored a major qualifying point in Kissinger's quote:

...in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support...

He's saying, essentially, that if anything, the democracies involved in the conflict are not collectively patient enough to devote the necessary time and effort to achieve a full military victory. I know it's much more convenient for you to first misrepresent his position as a "close advisor" to Bush, then slight a truly great diplomatic mind by deliberately misrepresenting the intent of his quote, but then again, I have to remind myself that you've never shown much problem with intellectual dishonesty.

To the "get out and see the world" fucktard...
I suppose the "kill or be killed" mentality should be replaced with the "submit or be killed" mentality being imposed in every area where Islamic law is being strictly followed. While I'm sure in your twisted view of cultural equivocality, that would be a return to eden, most of us don't actually want to live under Sharia law.

And, as I said after his "Mississippi" comment,
Fuck Charlie Rangel

The excuses for bullys has ... (Below threshold)
civil behavior:

The excuses for bullys has become long and protracted given that the mindset is Roo haha and damn the torpedoes.

Haven't had enough of death by bombs? Don't believe that through understanding, compassion and nurturing you get more than by abuse, violence and explotiation.

All you are doing is perpetuating the same cycle on your children which in "defense" is are what other cultures are teaching their kids. And who is to blame for such prejudices?

Still not one of you is able to refute that Rangel is calling out for the loud mouth bullys to put their youngs blood where their mouth is. As Robert said: "why not have the college republicans march on down to the recruiters office", sort of an equal opportunity death for all.

Right, fat chance. That's why the numbers show that kids whose families make under $40K a year are the fodder for their machines. Don't give me the horse pucky about how the richest 20% numbers are going up and the poorest 20% has gone down to 13%. The poor ARE the majority of recruits whose families are trying to live on $40K a year and if you have kids in this country that is a joke. Try sending kids to college on $40K a year. Try basic living on $40K a year.

And Kissinger is barely the only one. Try Adelman, and Perle,and Scowcroft and Baker and we know darn well Poppy is behind this rescue of Kiddy boy. Why you lunatics want to keep using a bilge pump when the Titanic is sinking is beyond me as it simply shows that the 30% of this nation are the smae lunatic fringe we see in the ones who are so intent on destroying us.

Karma has never occured to you.

Foolish Americans........

someone over at polipundit ... (Below threshold)
pts:

someone over at polipundit wanted a larger version
of gop banner. I created one is it okay to share it with others. Created illustrator file and new jpeg.

CB...What, exactly... (Below threshold)
Bo:

CB...

What, exactly, would constitute a refutation of Rangel's words? Someone to say that that wasn't what he said? Certainly there's no way to argue that he didn't voice that attitude. But do you really think that's the issue? Do you think those who opposed the draft for the Vietnam conflict were strictly upper-income, well-educated folks? What exactly are you looking for here?

Nevermind...your closing sentiment clarifies it wonderfully...just another shot at tearing down the culture of we to whom you refer as "foolish Americans."

And no, Karma hasn't occurred to me, chiefly because it's horseshit.

I do understand, however, when one suspends all rules of logic and reason, strips away any historical models of how international conflicts are best waged and resolved, and disallows any reference to the obvious superiority of western civilization, one really is at a loss to understand why we "foolish Americans" see a need to defend our way of life and national security with force.

Haven't had enough... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Haven't had enough of death by bombs? Don't believe that through understanding, compassion and nurturing you get more than by abuse, violence and explotiation.

If there were no evil in the world, then your statement would be true. But history has proven your theory wrong time and time again.

Still not one of you is able to refute that Rangel is calling out for the loud mouth bullys to put their youngs blood where their mouth is. As Robert said: "why not have the college republicans march on down to the recruiters office", sort of an equal opportunity death for all.

Many of those "loud mouth bullys [sic]", as you call them, have served and many have children in military service, but a draft would put loud mouth bullies like you in the military as well as those willing to serve this nation. It's bad enough having your ilk back stabbing the military on the civilian front, let alone from within as well.

Why don't you go to Darfur with your message of understanding, compassion and nurturing and see if you can get the Janjaweed to stop the Genocide? Or are you unwilling to put your life on the line for what you believe? Maybe we need a peacemakers draft so that we can send folks like you to places like Darfur where they can learn first hand how foolish their ideas are.

Right, fat chance. That's why the numbers show that kids whose families make under $40K a year are the fodder for their machines. Don't give me the horse pucky about how the richest 20% numbers are going up and the poorest 20% has gone down to 13%. The poor ARE the majority of recruits whose families are trying to live on $40K a year and if you have kids in this country that is a joke. Try sending kids to college on $40K a year. Try basic living on $40K a year.

All good reasons to support giving future military veterans a 100% federal tax exemption for every year they serve on active duty. That exemption wouldn't mean much to poor kids with little hope of making lots of money later in life, but it would be a huge benefit to the wealthiest. If you really want to get kids from rich families into the military that's the way to do it. If you want to destroy this nation's military, then the draft and defunding are the way to go. Lets see what the liberals do in the next two years. We'll find out in 08 if the majority of voters really want to disarm the U.S.

Reality has never occurred to you.

Foolish Liberals........

Apparently the Al Jazeera j... (Below threshold)
914:

Apparently the Al Jazeera jihadist's have already drafted Rangerl and plenty of other lib's to do their recruiting around the world.

The useful idiot's

ooh. I know its uncivil, b... (Below threshold)
Mark:

ooh. I know its uncivil, but can I beat up on "Civil Behavior" just a little.

The excuses for bullys has become long and protracted given that the mindset is Roo haha and damn the torpedoes.

actually its more "Why can't we take the shackles off the military?" if it really was Damn the torpedoes there would be a few glass parking lots glowing in the Middle East.

Haven't had enough of death by bombs? Don't believe that through understanding, compassion and nurturing you get more than by abuse, violence and explotiation.

Please tell me when the militant jihadis stop using abuse, vilence and explotiation to achieve their ends. When that happens I'll let you try to use understanding and compassion. The truth is that you have no understanding of the jihadis and appear to have no desire to really know them. You assume that they want what you want. If you actually listen you'll realize they want something inimical to Western Values. (but when was the last time you valued anything from the west?)

All you are doing is perpetuating the same cycle on your children which in "defense" is are what other cultures are teaching their kids. And who is to blame for such prejudices?

I can't figure out what you are trying to claim here, other than to try to blame american might and military for other cultures hating the USA. If that is it, you are right, but mostly because they have a bad case of "penis" envy.

Still not one of you is able to refute that Rangel is calling out for the loud mouth bullys to put their youngs blood where their mouth is. As Robert said: "why not have the college republicans march on down to the recruiters office", sort of an equal opportunity death for all.

Wow, liberal intolerance at its finest. The reason we don't want a draft has been explicitly stated many times, but you still don't listen. "WE DON'T WANT ANYONE IN THE MILITARY WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BE THERE." Our military is a well-trained, extremely well-educated, precision instrument. You don't had it over to a bunch of high school drop outs just because some idiot liberal thinks it will win political points. In truth the current armed forces is at its current force levels with few vacancies. They are becoming more and more careful about who they accept and won't just accept every Joe Schmoe who applies. You could march all the college republicans to the recruitment office, and they all could apply under gunpoint like you desire. The military would then probably reject 50-70% because they didn't fill a need and the military doesn't see a reason to carry dead weight.

Right, fat chance. That's why the numbers show that kids whose families make under $40K a year are the fodder for their machines. Don't give me the horse pucky about how the richest 20% numbers are going up and the poorest 20% has gone down to 13%. The poor ARE the majority of recruits whose families are trying to live on $40K a year and if you have kids in this country that is a joke. Try sending kids to college on $40K a year. Try basic living on $40K a year.

I do very well on $45K per year and have for the last 9 years. You obviously don't know how to budget.

And Kissinger is barely the only one. Try Adelman, and Perle,and Scowcroft and Baker and we know darn well Poppy is behind this rescue of Kiddy boy. Why you lunatics want to keep using a bilge pump when the Titanic is sinking is beyond me as it simply shows that the 30% of this nation are the smae lunatic fringe we see in the ones who are so intent on destroying us.

so a bunch of old "paleo-cons" who include one of the biggest doves in the world (Kissinger) are saying that they are against the current policy. What's funny is that you ignore any conservative voice, but because these men are supporting your cause you ignore the fact that most younger members of the GOP consider these dinosaurs RINOs. They may be right, they could be horrifically wrong. Time will tell. I personally believe that time will prove them and you very wrong, but I can see you allow yourself no doubts about the consequences of if you are wrong.

Karma has never occured to you.

Actually it does all the time in my case, but I don't believe it applies to world politics. I see the US as a dying empire much like Rome once was, but that with the advancements to military technology as well as transportation I don't think the US will linger on for 300 years like Rome did. I support a policy that I believe can slow the decline, but I expect that the liberals have already done too much damage in their quest for Utopia. I expect the Karma will be that the children (if any) of the current liberals will get to live in the next "Dark Ages", which will be a product of the liberals own policies.

Foolish Americans........

a statement that proves you are not an American. Which leaves me to wonder how much you really understand.

There must be a non-profit ... (Below threshold)
LJD:

There must be a non-profit somewhere than can connect those like Civil Disobedience, who want to 'talk', and the Jihadis who are all too willing to chop their heads off on video.

If Rangel was calling the r... (Below threshold)

If Rangel was calling the rights bluff, explain how the military is 4 to 1 Republican? If only democratic sons and daughters goto the military (cause we all know that republicans aren't poor) why do they not vote with their parents?

Thats right, cause it's just not true.

Civil Behavior (oxymoron anyone) and Lee would be better turned to look at some facts (any facts) and leave the spouting off to people like Kerry and Rangel who at least get publicity out of it.

lee, he also does NOT say t... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

lee, he also does NOT say that the war is lost, he says he doesn't see it as possible to win "in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support" Tell me again who has been whining about timelines?

"Tell me again who has b... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"Tell me again who has been whining about timelines?"

The American people, the Iraqis, and the rest of the free world.

The draft will not be reins... (Below threshold)
Lee:

The draft will not be reinstated at this time.

Top House Democrats to bar military draft plan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A reinstatement of the military draft, being pushed by a senior Democrat, will not be slated for consideration in the House of Representatives, the chamber's newly elected top leaders said on Monday.

"We did not include that" in legislative plans for early next year, said Democratic Rep. Steny Hoyer (news, bio, voting record) of Maryland, who will be House majority leader when the new Congress convenes in January under Democratic control for the first time in 12 years.

Never has an administration... (Below threshold)
civil behavior:

Never has an administration done so much for so few at the cost to so many.

Never has an administrat... (Below threshold)
Mark:

Never has an administration done so much for so few at the cost to so many.


Posted by: civil behavior at November 20, 2006 01:44 PM

Lets see.

Entire populations of Afghanistan and Iraq freed from represive governments and given an opportunity to change? CHECK

Entire population of US kept safe and not suffering from terrorist attacks from 9/11/01 until today (5 year period). CHECK

Total population having received benefits from the actions of the Bush administration? AT LEAST 310 Million human beings.

Cost in American Military Lives? 3000

lets compare with say.... humm... World War 2?
We will give all of Western Europe the benefit. being set free from Hitler's insanity, but we can't really count the US since other than Japan's attempt to keep the US on the sidelines neither axis power ever directly threatened the mainland US. (Germany considered it, but had to eliminate Russia and the UK first. Japan just wanted the US to leave them alone to conquer the eastern Pacific territories.) so... lets say 350 Million people benefitted.

Cost to just the US? over 50,000 military deaths.

Sorry civil behavior you have no knowledge of real costs and your attempt to claim the moral high ground is pathetic at best.

Please, Lee and CB never le... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Please, Lee and CB never let facts get in the way of their diatribes. Why bother trying to correct them?
Although, I'd like to see where CB has traveled to, since it is her stance that "we" need to get out and see "the world".
I think it would be amusing.

"The American people, the I... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

"The American people, the Iraqis, and the rest of the free world."

Wrong, try again lee. And as usual, avoid the fact that your previous statments were fabrications as well.

Ok you lying slimy tards - ... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Ok you lying slimy tards - here's the White House's Tony Snow - on Kissinger.

Q That's all right. It's in the context of the book, but is Henry Kissinger a regular advisor to the President? And did he tell the President to stick it out, and that any withdrawal would be like eating peanuts?

MR. SNOW: No. As a matter of fact, Henry did not talk to Bob Woodward. I spoke with Henry on Friday. So there are some second- or third hand recollections. Dr. Kissinger appears fairly -- he appears from time to time. I don't want to say "fairly regularly," but he's been in the White House, as have Jim Baker and Lee Hamilton and any number of people, in contrast to those who say the administration sort of puts on blinders and puts wax in its ears. Dr. Kissinger comes in quite often -- it's when he disagrees with the administration on policy. He told me, what's the purpose of coming here when I already agree.

Regarding Kissinger's quote that "...in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support..." - What's the beef ladies? Kissinger recognizes the political realities that you right-wing retards choose to ignore? Which proves what? That he can think and you can't! Sheesh.

Karma?That's why I... (Below threshold)

Karma?

That's why India is a bastion of human dignity, ain't it.

And pacificm as a method for peace only works if your enemy are Christians in culture such as the British in India or Americans during the civil rights movement in the U.S. People with an ingrained abhorence for killing or abusing peole who are not fighting back.

Yup... being passive is the way to peace.

Why do they hate us? Not because we are warriors, they *respect* warriors. They hate us because we are morally regenerate, sexually regenerate, and we pollute the world with our culture.

What are you willing to do about that CB? How far are you willing to go for peace? What matters enough to you that you wouldn't freely give it up?

How many whores and homosexuals (and the definition of "whore" includes most American women) are you willing to stone?

In other words, Lee... we'v... (Below threshold)

In other words, Lee... we've LOST because people want to lose.

WE KNEW THAT.

It's morally inexcusable, it's reprehensible, but if it's true it's true and if we lose it's because people chose to lose and the deaths and hardship resulting will be on the heads of those "without the patience."

I too would like to know wh... (Below threshold)

I too would like to know where CB has travelled too, where she stayed (how modern the accomodations) and how long she stayed, how many locals she got to know by name, what their economic station was, etc.

Yeah, the same old bleat about how Americans don't travel enough to understand the depths of human nature.

Karma, man. What goes around comes around... in the form of the US Army. Hoo Aah.

I'm still laughing at the m... (Below threshold)
Jo:

I'm still laughing at the many great smackdowns in here of Lee and civil behavior's moronic posts.

That's why I enjoy this blog so much! :)

Buhs led us into war, and l... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Buhs led us into war, and lost it. Now America must decide what to do next.

Since conservatives are choosing to whine and lay blame they are and should be left out of the discussion. You worthless sots got us into an un-winnable war, and have cost hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly, destroyed families, ruined cultures, and facilitated our enemies. Iran and North Korea should not be threats they are now - but you morons and your failed war on terror have done much more harm than good.

That must really sting. No wonder you idiots are crying louder than ever. History will mark this disaster as a monumental failure of the conservatives and Republican'ts.

You flat out LIE lee and th... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

You flat out LIE lee and then ignore it when people call you out. You specifically said that the war was lost, and that Kissinger said so publicly. That is not at ALL what he said, he said that it can't be won "in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support", aka, the timeline that the democrats want to put on it. Nowhere in there does he say that the war is lost like you continue to say he is saying.

As for Kissinger being a regular, Snow said, "I don't want to say "fairly regularly," in no way does that sound like he's saying hes a regular. The other quote in there, "Dr. Kissinger comes in quite often -- it's when he disagrees with the administration on policy." I take it you didn't actually see this press conference where Snow laughs as he says that, an obvious joke referring to Kissinger disagreeing often with the administration. You are so fucking dishonest lee.

History will indeed tell le... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

History will indeed tell lee, and you will be wrong on all counts. Unfortunately you are so intellectually dishonest that you'll be teaching your putrid liberal grandkids that Bush blew up the towers and personally raped and tortured 2 million Iraqis.

"he said that it can't b... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"he said that it can't be won "in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support"

Glad you can read piggy. It thrills me that someone with your obvious disabilities can read.

Now this proves what moron? Does it change the outcome predicted by Kissinger? Not at all. All it does is provide an opportunity for Republican apologists like you to blame someone else. This time, you can blame on it the fact that America and Iraq are both democracies -- feel better? No -- I'm sure you'd prefer that the US wasn't a democracy, and that our citizens didn't have the right to vote and speak up, right piggy?

The blame lies with the failure of the Republican'ts to execute on the war on terror. It was wrong from the start. Bush lied going in - and lied about where we are today - Stay the course - my ass!

The rest of your loser slobberings aren't worth addressing.

First of all dumbass, since... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

First of all dumbass, since when does an outcome that Kssinger predicts equal reality? The only thing he said in that statement is that he doesn't forsee this war to be winable if placed on a timeline. As far as I have seen there is no timeline yet, and Kissinger's "theory" doesn't make it so anyway!

Secondly, I suppose you saying that you're glad I can read means that you can not read. Because you are the one who read those statments as him saying the war is lost, which he most definitely did not say. So, keep on making shit up lee, I would say you look dumber and dumber with every post, but I am not sure that anyone here thinks there is any lower for you to go. Where the fuck were you educated anyway, and for how long?!!

Please don't be stupid! The... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Please don't be stupid! The only reason Rangel even brought this up was to generate a dialog where by EVERYBODY in our great country sacrifice something for the vanity war dubya started. He doesn't want a draft. He simply wants everybody to understand that the War on Terra (accodring to Dubya) will last forever and there needs to be an awareness that someones kids must serve so we can kill the furriners. The thinking is that if donors to the republican party thought maybe their own children will be sent to die in this illegal way, maybe - just maybe, they would re-think their stance on the war. After all, I am for war as long as someone elses kids fight it for me. So please don't be naive. I give you folks much more credit than that. Is that credit misplaced? I hope not.

Yes Tom, we all get that, t... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

Yes Tom, we all get that, thats why the title of the post says it is the dems favorite "scare tactic".

Buhs led us into war, an... (Below threshold)
Mark:

Buhs led us into war, and lost it. Now America must decide what to do next.

Since conservatives are choosing to whine and lay blame they are and should be left out of the discussion. You worthless sots got us into an un-winnable war, and have cost hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly, destroyed families, ruined cultures, and facilitated our enemies. Iran and North Korea should not be threats they are now - but you morons and your failed war on terror have done much more harm than good.

That must really sting. No wonder you idiots are crying louder than ever. History will mark this disaster as a monumental failure of the conservatives and Republican'ts.

Posted by: Lee at November 20, 2006 03:57 PM

First, Bush didn't lose the war. How can a president lose any war? if we retreat the people of the united States of America will lose the war, not any one Tom, Dick or George, no matter waht their current title is.

Second, the war is not unwinnable. No war is ever "unwinnable". I'll allow that some battles such as faced by the Jews at Masada can be, but wars are never unwinnable. If they were the VietCong would have given up in the first 6 months of the "Vietnam War" as they were never going to win on the battlefield.

Third, could you produce the hundreds of thousands of bodies you say that the Americans have caused the death of and then produce actual medical evidence that proves US involvement in the deaths? Or is this the standard anti-patriotic, anti-military paranoia being spouted?

As for Iran and North Korea being threats? How are they threats? The fact that they might have nuclear capability? How would you have prevented that? Talk? We did, they ignored it. Or are you saying we should have bombed them? I thought you were against violence. Or are you only against it until you are for it?

As for whining and "laying blame". Where have I done that. I am personally disappointed that the US military was not permitted to execuse a much more aggresive battle plan, but that is neither here nor there. And I don't think the war is actually lost. I think its become more of a slow drip of pain and blood and that it didn't need to, but I also believe that if we allowed the US military to be a bit more aggresive and made it clear that we were there until Iraq had a stable government that wasn't threatened by the jihadi militants the war would be won in under 2 years. However, I also know that liberals like youreself will never accept the possibliity and that your rhetoric will keep the morale of the enemy up as they believe that you will be able to generate enough political pressure to force an early retreat.

"I also know that liberals ... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

"I also know that liberals like youreself will never accept the possibliity and that your rhetoric will keep the morale of the enemy up as they believe that you will be able to generate enough political pressure to force an early retreat."

Lee and CB, YOU ARE THE ENEMY! As far as I'm concerned , You might as well be along side the Terrorists next time they are in the crosshairs of a gunship. I'm registered democratic and not only our Country would greatly benefit but the entire planet would be a more peaceful place without your self worshipping lying punk asses. STFU!

The blame lies wit... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
The blame lies with the failure of the Republican'ts to execute on the war on terror. It was wrong from the start. Bush lied going in - and lied about where we are today - Stay the course - my ass!

It won't work this time, Lee. If the war is lost it's because of all the back stabbing lefties like yourself who have been whining from 9/12 to this day. Unlike the leftist caused disaster of Vietnam, your whining words and back stabbing antics are forever recorded and searchable on the web. Whatever happens as the result of the left's cut and run policy in Iraq will be properly credited to the left. The insurgents could never win in Iraq without the help of the loony left in this country.

Charles Rangel isn't too fa... (Below threshold)

Charles Rangel isn't too far from the mark when he calls for re-instatement of the draft. But with one caveat .. only so in time of war as declared by the Congress. Other than physical disabilities, no deferrments .. especially to university and college matriculators
Committing our armed forces into war is a grave decision. It's a time of criticality, separations, shattered lives, suffering and sadness It must be entered into as such.
Given this, why the War Powers Resolution of 1973? This act by Congress was and remains a tarnished abdication of one of the Congresses' most critical responsibilites. It's all there in Article 1, Section 8 of our Constitution .. short and specific. It' a political cop-out and institutional disgrace. It should be exorcised from the books. This Act made the disastrous tragedies of Korea, Vietnam and Iraq not only possible, but near impossible to avoid.
Will our next Congress be prepared to declare war on terrorism?

Charles Rangel isn... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Charles Rangel isn't too far from the mark when he calls for re-instatement of the draft.

Rangel's intention with his draft proposal is to make war so unpalatable with the public that no President can sustain any future military action. In effect, Rangel want's to disarm this nation. A lot of lefties see that as a good thing, apparently believing there's no real need to use military force. Given the U.S. is at war with radical Islam, which apparently is news to those on the left, disarming this nation is suicide. Of course lefties see such talk as just scare tactics, but by the time events prove the left wrong, it will be too late to do anything about it.

We already see Iran moving to take over Iraq on the diplomatic front. As soon as the Iraqi government agrees to expel all U.S. forces, much of the violence will stop, simply because Iran has been the instigator of that violence from the beginning. When the U.S. leaves the area, the takeover of Iraq will proceed until completed. Similarly, Iran will force the U.S. to leave Afghanistan while continuing to threaten Israel. Iran can do this because it's not about military force alone, it's about the will to use that force and the U.S. has proven it doesn't have the will to win the war with radical Islam. Being the real target of radical Islam is the destruction if Israel, the leaders of radical Islam would be smart to leave the U.S. to slumber in leftist decay.

At some point the forces of radical Islam will march against Israel in overwhelming numbers, something like 100 million armed men. Then the big surprise comes.




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