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Those Ludicrous Bloggers Again

I have been gone the past few days on a really neat trip I will write about later, but right now I am working on little sleep and trying to catch up with the day-to-day stuff that needs to be attended to since my return. I will be blogging more later tonight, but wanted to quickly pass along the following on the controversy over the "Burning Six" story, which continued to develop over the weekend.

Curt at Flopping Aces has an informative post responding to the New York Times, including an extensive roundup. Pay attention folks. This one has significance beyond this specific story and is worth paying attention to because of what it says about the pattern of shoddy journalism coming out of the Middle East, and Iraq in particular, and the role the blogosphere will be playing as watchdog to the mainstream media, and also in directly providing good information from the region. Here are some excerpts from Curt's post. Read it all.

The Iraqis set up a unit so that the press could be assured that the official spokesmen that these reporters like to quote so much are in fact who they say they are. What's absurd is the notion that this wrong and somehow restricting their freedoms. Is it too much to ask that the media quote REAL police officers?
As I said last week, forgive us lowly bloggers for questioning a story coming out of the mainstream media from a source who isn't who he says he is, but some of us still have visions of identically matched smoke clouds dancing in our heads.

Update: Bruce Kesler compares the AP's sources on the "burning six" story to John Kerry's sources on his Vietnam medals.

John Kerry's claims to his medals in Vietnam has more credibility than the Associated Press' claims about its reporting of the six Sunnis purportedly set afire by Shiites.

As we used to say in the Marine Corps, that's lower than whale sh_t, which lays on the bottom of the ocean, and you know how low that is.

Kerry's medals were issued, however manipulatively or erroneously, by an official U.S. military process. The AP's source for its story is not the policeman he and the AP claims he is, according to Iraqi and U.S. officials, and the AP refuses to produce him.

Kerry mustered several named boatmates to support parts of his claims, although far more fellow and chain of command witnesses saw otherwise. The AP says it has, afterwards, found three witnesses, who are unnamed and not produced.

Update II: Mark Tapscott has an excellent piece on this story and explains how easy it would be for the AP to clear up this whole thing.


Comments (30)

"Is it too much to ask t... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"Is it too much to ask that the media quote REAL police officers?"

No, but asking the media to ONLY quote the sources that the Iraqi government wants quoted would be absurd.

Lee:As I read your... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

Lee:

As I read your comment, the MSM should not only quote the official stories, but continue to make ones up at the same time. How about we simply ask that they start getting it correct, or don't publish it. There was a time (a long time ago), when it was more important to get it correct, than to get it quick.

Well, when quoting governme... (Below threshold)
Thrush:

Well, when quoting government sources, they should at least make sure they're actually government sources. i.e. police are actually police, etc. So far, they haven't cared. Quoting someone who's lying about his job doesn't lend much credence to the his story.

I am assuming that FOX is i... (Below threshold)
nogo postal:

I am assuming that FOX is included in the spectrum of MSM...after all they "report" BS on the same or greater level as NBC..CBS..ABC..etc...
...actually one of the only sources I trust is C-span when they broadcast from the "chambers"..
...We should never forget who really owns the media..(and no, GE which owns NBC is not run by Libs)
..it is the owners and not the hired help that creates direction...
...remember it is mostly presented as a "show" where the big breasted gal with minimun clothes moves around while the "magician" puts the rabbit into the hat.
..That is why an uncensered net is critical...
...that is why sites such as Whizbang as well as DailyKos are important...

Give an example of Fox's "g... (Below threshold)
George:

Give an example of Fox's "greater level [of BS]" using CBS's fraudulent Texas Air National Guard documents as a reference.

Give an example of Fox's... (Below threshold)
Luke:

Give an example of Fox's "greater level [of BS]" using CBS's fraudulent Texas Air National Guard documents as a reference.

I hear the distinct sound of crickets.........

"...actually one of the onl... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

"...actually one of the only sources I trust is C-span when they broadcast from the "chambers".."

Nogo:

You realy do have an tremendous tolerance for "BS".

If you think that the mains... (Below threshold)
John:

If you think that the mainstream media gets fooled by their sources, and knowing that the MSM has people on the ground, an editorial review process, peer review, credentialed and educated journalists, and a budget....

If the mainstream meadia gets fooled after all that...

Why would you assume that some blogger in Podunk with no background in journalism, and no budget, blogging in their spare time after work would be a better source of information?

"Lee:As ... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"Lee:

As I read your comment, the MSM should not only quote the official stories, but continue to make ones up at the same time."

Well, that explains why you're a Republican USMC Pilot - I didn't say anything of the kind.

"How about we simply ask that they start getting it correct, or don't publish it. There was a time (a long time ago), when it was more important to get it correct, than to get it quick."

Sure, and we can ask them to issue a correction when they get it wrong. After all, mistakes happen all the time. Only paranoid people, and asshat bloggers trying to make a name for themselves, can't accept that fact of life.

Well, John, judging on how ... (Below threshold)

Well, John, judging on how many times those bloggers have proven to have caught out the mainstream media, I'd say they at least deserve a LITTLE consideration...

J.

Good work being done by Flo... (Below threshold)
MattG:

Good work being done by Flopping Aces. But, Bruce Kesler's bit (connecting it to Kerry) comes off odd.

Jay,A bit of consi... (Below threshold)
John:

Jay,

A bit of consideration is in order.

I will say, however that because bloggers in general don't have boots on the ground, lack access to primary sources, lack training, and tend to blog using other bloggers as sources, the credibility (present company excluded, of course), is not nearly as high as the MSM.

It creeps me out when I see people here that claim authority over the facts on an issue, and proudly proclaim that they don't get information from the MSM. I don't think that's a good idea, and I don't understand why ignorance has become such a virtue.

Hey, how's the new job thing going? Any news?

John

John,It's not that... (Below threshold)
Red Fog:

John,

It's not that the MSM gets "fooled" by their sources as much as it's MSM manipulation of the facts to set their agenda that gets them caught out by bloggers with PhDs, access to facts, first hand accounts of the truth, better sources, or just more insight than 'the agenda' being presented. But unfortunately you must think everything you read is true if it's in a newspaper.

The Wright Bros invented controlled flight by self educating while tending to their sick mother in nowhere Ohio and without formal higher educations. Bloggers operate in the same spirit as these brothers did a century ago by questioning formal beliefs of their time and imagining real solutions. The predecessor to the Smithsonian initially felt the Wright Bros were not educated enough to present their findings to the scientific community and now the first Wright Flyer hangs as a center piece to this same institution.

Imagination is more powerful than knowledge according to Einstein. Try imagining a free press without an agenda to sway public opinion and you may find yourself living in that dreamy utopia we all long for with a free press that can be trusted.

Good day.

Red Fog,What agend... (Below threshold)
John:

Red Fog,

What agenda are you referring to? State it.

I'm a former member of the media. Nobody every shared this with me.

The only agenda we know about is the Fox memo that came out the day after the mid term election. That was clearly beyond the pale.

No, dude... Imagination is not more powerfull than knowledge when it comes to news reporting. That's an odd thing to say. Facts, context, credibility, transparency are critical.

You think your average blogger is more qualified to report than your average journalist? PhD's and better sources? You're smoking something.

Hey, just for fun, how about we take a survey here? Let's ask the Wizbang editors to give us a summary of their professional credentials, education level, and their annual budget for their individual news reporting.

"former member of media"--w... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

"former member of media"--when in the hell have youever heard a member of the "media" call someone a DUDE? LMAO

Uh johnie boy how about you... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Uh johnie boy how about you giving us some proof of your FORMER MEMBER OF THE MEDIA BS. tick-tick--tick---tick-------

Jhow66,I don't kno... (Below threshold)
John:

Jhow66,

I don't know how I'm going to be able to "prove" anything to you. Lord knows, I've never been able to convince you of anything. You've got your world view, and you don't like anything that disturbs it.

For what it's worth, I hold an Associate Degree in Televison Production, and a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Radio and Television Broadcasting from one of the best universities in the country. I have 7 years of experience in the industry.

Following that, I spent over 15 very successful years in the software industry.

I'm 46 years of age, and I retired at age 44 two years ago, which leaves me with lots of free time on my hands to try to school ass-hats like you, dude...

I assume you don't have any more questions about me, so how about you stick to the topic.

Reading this this comments ... (Below threshold)
epador:

Reading this this comments in thread to following appropriate soundtrack:

Jimi singing about "Castles in the Sand"

Sheryl & Friends in Central Park doing Dylan's "Tombstone Blues."

Somehow my iPod makes it all worthwhile...

\sarcaster off

I just finished my intervie... (Below threshold)
Mark:

I just finished my interview with Tommy Franks #2 on what he knew about Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda while planning for the invasion. He mentioned some NEW intelligence on the link between the two. Solid intelligence yet to be seen.


3-Star General reveals additional details of former regime's ties to terror (al Qaeda)
http://regimeofterror.com/archives/2006/09/3star_general_reveals_addition/

If you owned one of the mos... (Below threshold)
USMC Pilot:

If you owned one of the most expensive desk top calculators, and found that it made a mistake you would have to wonder about results in the future. However, if you found out that it was continuously making mistakes, it wouldn't matter how much you paid for it, you would through it out. The continuous mistakes by the MSM should cause a rational person to throw out any information supplied by them, reguardless of how many "boots on the ground" they had. I personaly reguard information received from bloggers as opinion, not fact. I then use my experience and common sense to see what makes sense, knowing that both sides will attempt to spin the news

"Lee:

As I read your comment, the MSM should not only quote the official stories, but continue to make ones up at the same time."

Well, that explains why you're a Republican USMC Pilot - I didn't say anything of the kind.

"How about we simply ask that they start getting it correct, or don't publish it. There was a time (a long time ago), when it was more important to get it correct, than to get it quick."

Sure, and we can ask them to issue a correction when they get it wrong. After all, mistakes happen all the time. Only paranoid people, and asshat bloggers trying to make a name for themselves, can't accept that fact of life.


Posted by: Lee at December 4, 2006 07:52 PM"

Actualy since the AP is standing behind their story, it is exactly what you said, and there is no reason why "mistakes happen all the time" should be accepted from the MSM. Especially when they won't even acknowledge them once they have been uncovered. What good are all of those "boots on the ground", advanced degrees in journalism, and experience in reporting the news if you continually accept "mistakes happen all the time"?

Lee -I agree with ... (Below threshold)
jim:

Lee -

I agree with you that MSM should not just quote official government sources. However, would you not agree that MSM should quote them accurately to at least let that view be expressed, even if just to provide contrast? Would you also agree that whatever person(s)the MSM quotes should be carefully vetted by the MSM to be exactly the persons the MSM states them to be? And that such a standard should apply to the non-government sources quoted by the MSM?

Thus, if the MSM quotes a terrorist/insurgent/militant (choose one), should not the MSM identify that person as such?

John,Were you an edi... (Below threshold)
Red Fog:

John,
Were you an editor at the New York Times? Your credintial summation is spooky smart compared to us blooger pajama-wearin' stoops. Such a waste that you're retired, dude. Maybe you could teach spelling at the local community college?

Oh, and don't forget to ask for a refund from your alma mater because that would be good plain justice.

John,What agenda? E... (Below threshold)
Red Fog:

John,
What agenda? Every news story has bias which can be part of a broader agenda. It's that twinkle in your former editor's eye right after he's masturbated to a photo of JFK and tells you to go out there a drum up another Kennedy history spew.

Study history and you may discover that everyone has an agenda when telling a story, dude.

My agenda today is to encourage an escallation of U.S. aggression in Iraq so that we can force that country into an ethnic coalition while dudes like yourself back here beg for a retreat. Looser coward drone paperboy.

To johnie (the back slapper... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

To johnie (the back slapper-his own)--sure you are. And I am the King of Siam. Wonder why you did not name the school? Hmmmm. Just one more question--how did you get to be such a liar in only 46 years? Do you really expect us to believe that BS. (It is so nice to be the King of Siam even though I retired 10 years ago--young women laying around with me feeding me grapes and all the other goods things that go with being King) Makes about as much sense as what you wrote. LMAO

Sounds like someone...<br /... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Sounds like someone...
...with an Associate Degree in Televison Production, and a Bachelor of Arts Degree in Radio and Television Broadcasting from one of the best universities in the country and 7 years of experience in the industry...
...is a little put off about bloggers beating network news on RELIABILITY.

Maybe it's the lack of a lucrative career in your chosen field, or the fact that you're 46 and still sayin 'dude'. OUCH!

John -Above you as... (Below threshold)
jim:

John -

Above you asserted that MSM "had boots on the ground":

"If you think that the mainstream media gets fooled by their sources, and knowing that the MSM has people on the ground, an editorial review process, peer review, credentialed and educated journalists, and a budget...."

And then you asserted that bloggers did not:

"I will say, however that because bloggers in general don't have boots on the ground, lack access to primary sources, lack training, and tend to blog using other bloggers as sources, the credibility (present company excluded, of course), is not nearly as high as the MSM."

I would assert that both the above are not correct. Per Roggio - who is an embedded blogger and thus boots on the ground - and others, the MSM sits in the Green Zone and simply takes the inputs of indigenous "stringers", works on them, and files them. That is hardly "boots on the ground" with any capability to personally vet items in a story. In fact, one post indicated that there were - at present - zero MSM embeds with Coalition forces. The MSM stringers may well be terrorist embeds, but they do not seem to state that in the MSM pieces either.

Thus, MSM stories should perhaps more properly contain lots of disclaimers that simply are never there. Maybe something like:

"Per xxx, a Iraqi militant who claims to have killed 17 civilians using three IEDs, two vehicle bombs, and a gutting knife, Coalition forces conducted a brutal attack that killed two civilians as they innocently buried objects along a road and another while others playfully aimed rifles while atop the local mosque."

See, that lets the readers better place credibility of the alleger in context. Blasting to the world that a police lieutenant that they cannot seem now to produce said that 6 Sunnis had been burned alive, though they seem not to have left bodies or familes, does not appear to me to meet the standards you avowed above.

Bloggers and posters, perhaps by their very nature independent of MSM, may be better than you claim. They may not have been trained at the NY Times Jason Blair School of Truthfulness or the LA Times Hiltzik School of SockPuppetry, but that may not be all bad. Instead, they likely include engineers, scientists, investigators, inspectors, auditors, detectives, attorneys, professors, soldiers, police officers, etc. In fact, they do, because members of all those professions have prominent blogs or post to them.

Well, it's a pretty thougth... (Below threshold)
John:

Well, it's a pretty thougth if it were true.

Some journalists are better than others. Judith Miller was a shill for the administration. Bill Moyers on the other hand is a pretty impressive guy.

Some stories turn out to be misguided, but the vast majority of the MSM stories are factualy correct. The only asset that a news service like AP has to sell to it's consumers (media outlets) is it's accuracy. It has an inherent interest in delivering the best, most accurate, and timeliest news possible.

I don't know if the book is closed on this story. I'm willing to give it a bit more time before I make up my mind.

I do know I'm likley to get better information from a reliable orginization of professional journalists that follow published standards of ethics, and adhere to best practices.

If you need a doctor, you go to a professional. If you need an attorney, you go to a professional. If you need a haricut, you go to a professional.

When you need news to help you perform your democratic obligations, you go to a ... ?

You get the idea.

Jhow66,You asked <... (Below threshold)
John:

Jhow66,

You asked "Wonder why you did not name the school? Hmmmm. Just one more question--how did you get to be such a liar in only 46 years?"

Well, as I mentioned when I answered your last question, it's because you're not interested in learning anything. If I thought it was important to the discussion, or helping you understand my point, I would have.

You're just interested in engaging in ass-hattery.

So, for your final question, I've never lied to you. Or to anyone else here, for that matter.

I have neither the time or interest to come here and lie. No point to it. I barely have the time to argue with you, but I'm curious to see if you have any capacity to learn.

Like that other person said the other day, you're basicaly a monkey in a cage performing for our entertainment. That's fun for a while.

I think I've pretty much had enough of you for the day.

" Bill Moyers on the other ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

" Bill Moyers on the other hand is a pretty impressive guy."

Bwahahaha! Yeah, no bias in that guy!

What's most impressive is how he funnels public taxpayer money into his production company and his pockets through PBS. I'd love to run a scam like that. I'd be a millionaire like Bill.

Yeah johnie boy you had eno... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Yeah johnie boy you had enough of me because I see you for what you are-- a pompous Liar. How hard is to back up your claims if they are true?
Don't want to list them because they can be checked? We are waiting------------
(P.S.-don't stop at my cage-I don't like celery.)




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