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Our Brave Soldiers Did Not Die Just To Mitigate Defeat

If all the leaks from the Iraq Study Group's recommendations are accurate, then they are an insult to all our brave heroes who made the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq.

Read Rick Moran's post. Here's a portion:

Today is the day that the Iraq Study Group will deliver its not so secret recommendations on how we can best pull out of Iraq without leaving behind a bloody mess, regional chaos, increased Iranian influence, and a helpless, toothless, Iraqi government dominated by theocrats and thugs.


This is our new battle cry; "We must mitigate defeat!"

Stirring, isn't it? Not quite the ring that "Remember the Alamo" has but then, this is the 21st century and such patriotic and emotional displays are frowned upon by the blue blooded "wise men" of the ISG who have labored long and hard to produce this recipe for American retreat.

The only acceptable outcome is total victory.

Update: Download the report here.

Update II: Check out Stop the ACLU, which has a roundup of blogger reaction.


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Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Our Brave Soldiers Did Not Die Just To Mitigate Defeat:

» Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator linked with Iraq Study Group's findings to be released online

» The TIW Blog linked with The Best Reason to Have Never Gone into Iraq

» Church and State linked with Fight. So We Can Negotiate?

» FullosseousFlap's Dental Blog linked with Iraq War Watch: Iraq Study Group - Try Diplomacy and then Cut and Run

» Flopping Aces linked with The ISG Report

» Blogs of War linked with Bloggers React: The Iraq Study Group Report

» Chronicles of War linked with Bloggers React: The Iraq Study Group Report

» ReidBlog linked with 'It is over'

Comments (163)

Come on Kim, even the incom... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Come on Kim, even the incoming SoD says we are losing. It is over, and it is time to leave, thanks for coming, turn-out the lights.

Is quitting, losing? ... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

Is quitting, losing?

I guess it has much the same outcome and repercussions, but the causes are different.

I guess actually losing can be honerable if you gave it your all. Quitting isn't no matter what.

If we are losing BarneyG200... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

If we are losing BarneyG2000, would you get behind an effort to win it? Because it can be won.

Barney, he did not say we a... (Below threshold)
Bo:

Barney, he did not say we are losing, he said we are not winning. He elaborated, stating that it was a situation where we're neither losing nor winning, and a change is in order to facilitate victory.

Barney, you lied.

Apologize.

Now.

Unbelievable. We have the ... (Below threshold)

Unbelievable. We have the equivalent of a 28 point lead in the 4th quarter with 10 minutes to go. Our opponent makes a few first downs and all the idiot armchair quarterbacks come out of the woodwork screaming that we're "losing"; and we ought to just end the game now.

Pathetic, spinless worms, the lot of you who think we're losing. A few guerrila tactics and you're ready to throw in the towel. Absolutely pathetic.

Something cool that Xerox i... (Below threshold)
cstmbuild:

Something cool that Xerox is doing,

If you go to this web site, www.LetsSayThanks.com you can pick out a thank you card and Xerox will print it and it will be sent to a soldier that is currently serving in Iraq. You can't pick out who gets it, but it will go to some member of the armed services.

How AMAZING it would be if we could get everyone we know to send one!!!

If you aren't doing anything else for the troops, at least take the time to send one of these cards.

In case I wasn't clear...I'... (Below threshold)

In case I wasn't clear...I'm speaking to BarneyG2000 and our now worthless SoD for claiming that we're "losing". Guess the media tactic of repeating a lie for 5 years until people believed it worked...

...and my apologies for misspelling spineless...

Tom, why are YOU perpetuati... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

Tom, why are YOU perpetuating the lie that he said we were losing? Or are you no better than BarneyG2000?

KimThe problem wit... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Kim

The problem with "total victory" is that no one can seem to articulate exactly what the conditions of that might look like. If it means, say, only one car bomb a month in Bagdhad then it might be 20 years before we achieve "total victory".

The problem is also that we are no longer fighting a war in Iraq. It is a police action in an extremely bad neighborhood. It is all up to the Iraqis now and no amount of political maneuvering by the US will make them stop killing each other, and as collateral damage our troops, until THEY decide to.

Either way, our troops have been set up for failure by their leaders for their lack of clarity on the scope of the mission and more of them will continue to die while babysitting Iraqis who would rather blow each other up than embrace the democracy that Americans have paid for in blood and treasure.

Betting on the Iraqis to lead the way in reshaping the region has turned out to be our biggest mistake, not troop levels.

KimThe problem wit... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Kim

The problem with "total victory" is that no one can seem to articulate exactly what the conditions of that might look like. If it means, say, only one car bomb a month in Bagdhad then it might be 20 years before we achieve "total victory".

The problem is also that we are no longer fighting a war in Iraq. It is a police action in an extremely bad neighborhood. It is all up to the Iraqis now and no amount of political maneuvering by the US will make them stop killing each other, and as collateral damage our troops, until THEY decide to.

Either way, our troops have been set up for failure by their leaders for their lack of clarity on the scope of the mission and more of them will continue to die while babysitting Iraqis who would rather blow each other up than embrace the democracy that Americans have paid for in blood and treasure.

Betting on the Iraqis to lead the way in reshaping the region has turned out to be our biggest mistake, not troop levels.

To me, saying 'we're not wi... (Below threshold)

To me, saying 'we're not winning' is the same as saying we're losing. His was a terrible choice of words. WE ALREADY WON.

We're trying to help a fledgling government get on it's feet, and the entire world is trying to undermine it. The last thing we need is for a new SoD to provide more fodder for the people trying to undermine it.

Did you, or did you not see the headlines this week about his statement? Perception in a nation with a short-attention span is everything.

Tom, this is something like... (Below threshold)
Bo:

Tom, this is something like arguing with an athiest about the existence of God. If you begin any sentence with, "Let's just suppose there is no God..." you've lost the debate.

Now, the incoming SoD did indeed seem to echo the "quagmire" meme to some degree, but the subsequent questions and his answers indicated that he deems the situation far from hopeless.

I personally think that we should adopt the "provocation is met with crushing retaliation" ideology of warfare, accepting that war is truly nasty, barbaric, and cruel, and should be waged in such a way as to be supremely short and effective. What we're doing is akin to executing a death-row inmate by starvation; in essence making an unpleasant but necessary task unnecessarly inhumane.

Rob, there's never been any waffling on "total victory" idea. That will be achieved when an Iraqi democracy is established and has the ability to sustain itself. I don't think anyone thought that would be an overnight development, and although our attitude towards warfare (see my above paragraph) has made this task more arduous than necessary, it is by no means an impossible feat. Even a weak (but stable) democracy set up in Iraq will break the backs of the Islamofascists and of the regimes who choose to side with them.

Bo, ListKeeper:You... (Below threshold)

Bo, ListKeeper:

You'll have to forgive me. This is my "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!" moment.

My point is, I'm tired of people drinking the 'we're losing' kool-aid. Hence, my analogy to the football game.

Barneygoogle- French for "p... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Barneygoogle- French for "pucker puss" (lee lee).

We have not lost anything. ... (Below threshold)
SurfinKC:

We have not lost anything. The left ties our hands behind our backs militarily and then claims "we've lost". Yes we have been in Iraq longer than it took us to defeat Nazi Germany. The difference is that we allowed our military to do what was necessary to win in WWII. The only way to win this war is with force. Anything else is seen by America's enemy's as weakness. Just putting this report out has further emboldened them! We should never quit! We should keep fighting until they do!

P.S.: I'm 41 years old. If all goes well, I will be sworn into the Army reserve on Monday. That's how much I believe in what we are doing.

Bo,The problem wit... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Bo,

The problem with your definition is that it is way too abstract. I'm asking "what would that look like". Iraq has a democracy. Stability is the problem. The Iraqis could have a stable democracy if they wanted one, all they have to do is stop killing each other. Not to discount the other factors like Al Quada's instigations of violence, stability is something Iraqis must choose and it likely cannot be imposed by them by a larger American military presence. I also feel the prospects of that stability are very slim now, as Iraqis, especially their leadership, are proving themselves not the most strong, focused, and peace loving people of the world. Nor have they proven themselves repelled by, but rather sympathetic to, the extremism of their neighbors, making me doubt that even with stability will they be the bulwark against Iran and Syria that we'd hoped.

So, with things the way they are, I ask you, would you send your child there to potentially die? I feel that is a reasonable measure of whether one feels a war is worth continuing to fight or not. I would not, as I no longer feel that a free Iraqi is worth a dead American.

"If we are losing Barney... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

"If we are losing BarneyG2000, would you get behind an effort to win it? Because it can be won."

Posted by: VagaBond at December 6, 2006 09:39 AM

Now why would he do that? Our defeat has been the Left/Dem/BDSer goal all along.

The elected Dems overwhelmingly 'supported' the war at the beginning only because of craven, calculated political reasons. (They didn't want to appear weak and unpatriotic to the voters.)

Since then it's been a non-stop assault of defeatism and now out-and-out opposition to our war effort. The MSM/Dems have highlighted everything bad and mostly ignored everything good that happens over there. They even make fake stories up to make it look worse than it is.

When this war started, did these people want the American effort to succeed? Did they support our efforts all along? No. It's taken a few years but now they are finally saying publically what they have been saying privately amongs themselves. They want us to lose.

These people are unpatriotic and unAmerican.

it's easy to sit at your ke... (Below threshold)
jay k.:

it's easy to sit at your keyboard and call others unpatriotic and unamerican. there's a growing call for 20-30k more troops. why don't you enlist? show me your patriotism.

"The left ties our hands be... (Below threshold)
tommo:

"The left ties our hands behind our backs militarily...."

"We're 24 points ahead in the 4th quarter...."

That must be acid laced kool-aid you all are drinking.

To say our troops should not exit because you, you fat slob typing in your parents basement, would feel humiliated, too f-ing bad.

Suck it up or join up, you cowards. Bullies. Losers.

Wow. The 'chickenhawk' meme... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Wow. The 'chickenhawk' meme. How original.

It's time to echo John Kerr... (Below threshold)
carolha:

It's time to echo John Kerry's statement of 30 years ago : How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? My son is in the Army, currently serving in Ramadi. I do not want him to be the last man to die for George Bush's collosal mistake. There is no way to "win" in Iraq, there may be a slight chance we can get out without leaving the country in total chaos. It is the best we can hope for.

We have the equivalent o... (Below threshold)
Brian:

We have the equivalent of a 28 point lead in the 4th quarter with 10 minutes to go.

You must be watching a different game. The coach of this one disagrees with your rosy assessment.

The only acceptable outc... (Below threshold)
Brian:

The only acceptable outcome is total victory.

Congratulations. You and Bush are now officially the only ones left who believe that.

"The Left" isn't setting of... (Below threshold)
jvf:

"The Left" isn't setting off car bombs
"The Left" isn't chopping off heads
"The Left" isn't shooting down helicopters
"The Left" isn't laying roadside bombs.

you can blame the media, the Democrats, etc. till you're blue in the face but you cannot change the facts on the ground. And no, domestic political debate, and our media did not create these facts.

oh yeah, and the reason that the Chickenhawk meme keeps coming back is that it fits.

Good for you, mr 41 year old volunteer, I hope you stay safe. but 99.99% of those who are screaming "kill 'em all" are hypocrites, including the AWOL Commander in Chief and the 5 deferments, other priorities Vice President.

carolha...thank you ... (Below threshold)
jay k.:

carolha...
thank you and your son; for his service and your contribution. i agree with you about bush's collosal mistake. i was among the 500k that marched in nyc before the war. why it took three years for most of the rest of the country to recognize the mistake i'm not sure.
today i am less concerned with leaving iraq in chaos, than i am about leaving the entire region in chaos. i fear the baker commision, by delaying it's report in an attempt to protect a republican congress, may have missed the window of opportunity. today i wonder how we calm down a region enflamed by our actions, and move forward towards peace. it took a hand-full of huge egos and their un-critical supporters to get us here. it will take some real leadership and vision to salvage the situation.
thank you again.

It is a great thing we are ... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

It is a great thing we are doing in Iraq. May God Bless President George W. Bush for having the wisdom to go there and do what we have done.

We've won one war in Iraq already, defeating Saddam's military, killing his evil sons, and getting him convicted of murder and having him sentenced to death.

Now we need to win the media war. We don't need stability in Iraq to win. What we do need is to complete the job of empowering the Iraqi's to take care of themselves. We're almost done.

You can tell we are almost done and we've almost won by how frantic the Democrats and the Terrorists are becoming. They can see the writing on the wall, as it were.

Soon we will leave Iraq, with the exception of perhaps a base filled with troops, and the Iraqi's will be able to handle their own problems, thanks to President Bush and the United States Military. The Media, the Democrats, and Gates will take the credit and pat themselves on the back for pulling victory from the jaws of President Bush's defeat.

But for those people who've been paying attention, and history itself, will be the judge. And all will see that it was the steadfastness of President Bush and his supporters that allowed us to leave Iraq only after the Iraqi's were able to support themselves and defend themselves.

Again, God bless President Bush and God Bless our boys and girls in harms way in Iraq.

What garbage.The "... (Below threshold)
joe:

What garbage.

The "left" isn't losing the war, the "right" already lost it - and they lost before the first soldier was deployed to Iraq.

The conservatives lost the war by not having a plan going in, and by being unable to even define what was they defined as "victory". And they still can't. "Total victory"? Meaningless and non-responsive. Define the goal or admit you don't have one Kim. And if you don't have one you can't win it.

Pretty simple, huh?

So from a "loony leftie" who protested the war and argued against it ad nauseam with every moronic Kool-Aid drinking "they'll love us in Baghdad" wingnut for a full year before you lunkheads sent the first American soldier off to die for your hubris let me say this: go to hell. I didn't start this, I told you it was wrong and stupid and impossible from the get go as did every other liberal I know. Every single one of them. And you simply didn't listen. And as the bodies pile up (even among your OWN FAMILY for god's sake!) you still won't listen or think or consider or even reason. Keep whistling past the graveyard you all created.

And by all means keep waving the flag and pointing the finger of blame at all the people who were right and who desperately, passionately tried to make you see the truth but who you insulted and yelled at and disparaged as being "un-American" and "traitors".

Because 600,000 people are now dead as a result and you're still wrong.


"You can tell we are almost... (Below threshold)
jvf:

"You can tell we are almost done and we've almost won by how frantic the Democrats and the Terrorists are becoming. They can see the writing on the wall, as it were."

??????

what are you smoking?

Conditions in Iraq are "grave and deteriorating," with the prospect that a "slide toward chaos" could topple the U.S.-backed government and trigger a regional war unless the United States changes course and seeks a broader diplomatic and political solution involving all of Iraq's neighbors, according to a bipartisan panel that gave its recommendations to President Bush and Congress today.

doesn't sound like almost finished to me.

Oh brother. Yeah, the Guar... (Below threshold)

Oh brother. Yeah, the Guardian is a great, objective news source. Keep proving my point. Tell me, what strategic positions or infrastructure have we lost? What major or even minor battles have we lost? Any major economic resourses that have been captured by the enemy? That's right, zip, zero, nada. The only thing we're "losing" is the propaganda war because of the constant drumbeat of negativity being offered up without mentioning *any* of the positives. You're feeding right into what al-Quaeda, et. al, want. This article proves that the world is undermining the effort to get this democracy underway. But you just keep chug, chug, chugging that Kool-Aid. It'll help keep that linguini spine of yours soft.

Chickenhawk? How pretentious. With that logic, can't criticize the President anymore until you become President.

Fat slob in my parent's basement? Once again, how pretentious of you. Way to bring the conversation to a Neanderthal level. I'm out.

Did anyone else notice the ... (Below threshold)
Jeff Irvin:

Did anyone else notice the reference to the Alamo in Kim's original post? Weren't all those men killed?

Were Kim and Rick "Moron" suggesting that our only options are complete victory or a massive suicide mission?

is the baggi post above art... (Below threshold)
jay k.:

is the baggi post above artfully crafted satire?
please tell me it is. please.

Please folks, listen. We in... (Below threshold)
Tom:

Please folks, listen. We invaded a soverign nation for no good reason. We pushed a democratic process on the people who were not ready for it. We hand chose their "new leader" (chalabi) who was a nutjob and a CIA "friend". He turned out lousy. Then we went through the highly visible, but practicaly useless election (remember the purple fingers?). It did no good. We disbanded the police force and civil servants who really ran the infrastructure of Iraq - and things fell apart (electricity, water, security, etc...). We then created a security force comprised of Iraqis who were more loyal to their religion (and tribe) than the central government. We should have put all faiths intermixed within single units - not separate units based on faith. Sunnis won't engage other Sunnis - Shia won't engage other Shia, etc...So, nobody really is in charge. Debating whether we are winning or losing is a waste of time as we shouldn't be there in the first place. For all the reich wingnuts out there - this is the main point: We shouldn't be there at all.

athetic, spinless worms, th... (Below threshold)
maggysturn:

athetic, spinless worms, the lot of you who think we're losing. A few guerrila tactics and you're ready to throw in the towel. Absolutely pathetic.
Posted by: Tom Blogical at December 6, 2006 09:49 AM

I love these "idiot armchair" conservatives who think we're winning. Tom, if it's such a "winnable" war, why aren't you (and the Bush twins) in Iraq helping to get the job done even faster?

No, you and the entire Bush family will let others die for your "war on terror". Hypocrites, complete hypocrites.

Fat slob in my parent's bas... (Below threshold)
janew:

Fat slob in my parent's basement? Once again, how pretentious of you. Way to bring the conversation to a Neanderthal level. I'm out.
Posted by: Tom Blogical at December 6, 2006 11:53 AM

Notice that he doesn't deny it? LOL.

I guess actually losing ... (Below threshold)
observer 5:

I guess actually losing can be honerable if you gave it your all.

The United States never "gave it [it's] all" in Iraq. That's a historical fact now, too few troops, too few civilian advisors, too little aid money.

I'm reading the ISG report now, I don't see anything dramatic in it, there are common sense ideas in it. Whether we can implement them is another matter.

People should read the ISG report before criticizing it.

The Left caused us to lose ... (Below threshold)
John:

The Left caused us to lose in Iraq...

What an incrediable load of bullshit...

You guys had the house, the senate, the executive branch. A president with a historic approval rate. Media that gave you a free pass for years. Every single budget request. The best, most advanced, largest military in the world. You could not possibly have had it any easier.

Over the last three years, bad decision making, bad planning, bad hiring and procurement, and bad truth-telling have caused...

THE ADMINISTRATION

...to lose this war.

Unless you're trying to tell us that 70% of Americans are now part of "the left".

Perhaps the outgoing SoD is now part of the left. Perhaps the incoming SoD is now part of the left. James Baker is now part of the left.

The Administration lost the long war in Iraq.

The military won the first two.

The war was origionaly about WMD. We won that. No WMD... (There were no WMD, but regardless, none now).

The war was to get Saddam out of power. We won that. No Saddam.

Then the war was to free the Iraqi people. We won that. They are free. Sometimes being free sucks, but it is what it is. So, mission accomplished.

How many times do we want to keep moving the goalpost?

I will say that a free Iraq is not the ultimate US goal. The ultimate US goal in Iraq is to promote a form of government that will accept US intervention and work on behalf of US goals to help destabilize our "enemies" in the middle east, and to provide us with strategic energy reserves for the next 20 years or so.

But it's easier to say Democracy.

Chickenhawk, checkwh... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Chickenhawk, check
why aren't the Bush twins serving, check
AWOL president, check

Yep, the Kos Kiddies and DU Loonies are here.

Some memes never go away...

When are you enlisting, Mr.... (Below threshold)
Devil's Advocate:

When are you enlisting, Mr. Wizbang? Because, as you point out so rightfully, we need to achieve total and complete victory. And we need to have a few more thousand US soldiers die or be maimed because otherwise we are disrespecting the already dead and already maimed ones. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Methink that The Dems need to bring back the draft pronto! We'll see if our little radical warmongers change their stance when they, or their loved ones, have to ship to Iraq.

"I love these "idiot armcha... (Below threshold)

"I love these "idiot armchair" conservatives who think we're winning. Tom, if it's such a "winnable" war, why aren't you (and the Bush twins) in Iraq helping to get the job done even faster?"

This is idiotic logic. Aside from the fact I can't enlist because of my age, you've now just disqualified yourself from criticizing any job you've never done before. Like, for example, the Presidency. Congratulations. I will, however, continue to support the troops in any other way that I can.

Janew:

Grow up. Not that it matters, but I own my own house and I could run you into the ground. I work out 5-7 days a week.

What's my conditioning level or my home ownership status have to do with my First Amendment right to express my opinion?

Like I said, Neanderthal level.

What exactly is it that the... (Below threshold)
cat:

What exactly is it that the lunatic right thinks can be won and how exactly do you propose achieving this victory? Throughout this debacle, the longer you have stayed, the worse things have become. And things can only continue to get worse with every month and year that you delay the inevitable.

You could have saved tens of thousands of lives - nearly three thousand of them your own soldiers - if you had left three years ago. Instead you choose to remain in denial and let the slaughter continue. You're already dredging up the "stabbed in the back" lie that Hitler was so fond of (no, calm down, I'm not accusing you of being Nazis) and has kept your Vietnam fantasies alive for three decades.

But your fate in Iraq will be the same as the Soviet Union's in Afghanistan. The only question is, will you wait for nine years before you accept reality, or will you give Iraq and your own nation a chance to recover sooner?

There is no movement of goa... (Below threshold)

There is no movement of goalposts. The goal remains the same. But we can't just say "Well, they're free now, let's get out of here," then watch as Iraq is taken over by Iran/Syria and the Iraqi people are in even more peril than they were under Saddam. It don't work like that.

Things are tough for us in Iraq, but let's face it: the Iraq Study Group has been nothing more than a waste of time, money and energy, and an insult to all that has been done by our brave soldiers.

Les Nessman:You fo... (Below threshold)

Les Nessman:

You forgot another meme: "Personally insulting those you disagree with in an attempt to disqualify their arguments."

But that is a lot to write.

Loved your pronunciation of Chi Chi Rodriguez in WKRP, by the way!

Well said, John!He... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Well said, John!

Here's what Gates says about winning ---- briefly, we aren't.

Gates says U.S. losing war

WASHINGTON - Robert Gates, seemingly clinching confirmation as the new secretary of defense, said Tuesday the United States is not winning in Iraq and he's confident President Bush will listen to his ideas about forging a new war strategy.

As John said, America gave the Republicans carte blanche to win this war and they failed miserable. In the end Bush put Republican politics ahead of winning the war, and backed Rumsefeld's policies to the bitter end rather than admit to the mistakes that were made and apply course corrections a year ago. That would have been politically inconvenient as the election approached. Instead more soldiers and innocent Iraqis died.

Our Brave Soldiers Did Not ... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Our Brave Soldiers Did Not Die Just To Mitigate Defeat, but it is fine to send more to their death to keep a lie alive?

Tom Blogical writes...... (Below threshold)
John:

Tom Blogical writes...

"Tell me, what strategic positions or infrastructure have we lost? What major or even minor battles have we lost? Any major economic resourses that have been captured by the enemy? That's right, zip, zero, nada."

Well, Tom - Bagdad used to have electricity on most of the day. I think they are down to about two hours a day. Faluja is leveled. We can no longer pump oil out of the country via land routes because the pipelines keep getting blown up. Water systems have been destroyed. We can go into an area and win a battle, but we can't hold those areas.

Tom, it's not going swimmingly.

By the way, almost 3,000 Americans died. Zip, zero, nada, eh....?

What's wrong with you?

Join the fucking army if yo... (Below threshold)
eastriver:

Join the fucking army if you think "winning" is so fucking important.

cat wrote;Throu... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

cat wrote;

Throughout this debacle, the longer you have stayed, the worse things have become.

Oh cat, how I wish you'd watch something other than the MSM. Things have gotten much, much, much better. We've gotten rid of the corrupt police officers and replaced them with better trained officers who will do the job out of a sense of duty to their country rather than to work for the factions trying to destroy it.

We've got many Iraqi divisions coming on line everyday. New recruits, new commanders, communications abilities, vehicles, construction, payment, the list goes on and on.

Of course, this sort of progress does not get reported in the news sources you are apparantly reading, but we are reaching our goals and we are doing so quickly.

We aren't in Iraq to make sure they have a robust economy, or to make sure that they have the same chance at educating their children as we have here, we aren't even in Iraq to stop the political disagreements the citizens of the country might have. We are in Iraq to help them stand up so that we can stand down. This means preparing their military and their police force to adequate levels so that when we leave, yes, the bombs will still go off, the fighting will continue, but the forces for freedom and democracy will be strong enough to continue.

This time is coming soon. We must be steadfast so that we can achieve this victory.

Let's not allow Al'Queda or the Democrats stop us.

And now, a fresh new wordin... (Below threshold)

And now, a fresh new wording of the "Bush Lied, People Died" meme, a presumption moonbats will agree with; but nobody else will.

The insult has been to our ... (Below threshold)
Joe Public:

The insult has been to our brave and brightest by putting them in Iraq without clear mission objectives. You can talk about "winning" and "finishing the job", but the reality is that Iraq is getting worse and slipping further into chaos. We no longer control the events on the ground and certainly not on the streets. At some point, you all have to face facts. It's over, how many more of our people have to die for this failure?

If we're winning, what woul... (Below threshold)
woofyman:

If we're winning, what would losing look like ?

Baggi,OK, so you r... (Below threshold)
John:

Baggi,

OK, so you recommend we don't watch the MSM. Please send links to back up your points so that we may read them.

You state;

Things have gotten much, much, much better. We've gotten rid of the corrupt police officers and replaced them with better trained officers who will do the job out of a sense of duty to their country rather than to work for the factions trying to destroy it.

"We've got many Iraqi divisions coming on line everyday. New recruits, new commanders, communications abilities, vehicles, construction, payment, the list goes on and on."

I'd like to see your sources, please.

"Well, Tom - Bagdad used to... (Below threshold)

"Well, Tom - Bagdad used to have electricity on most of the day. I think they are down to about two hours a day. Faluja is leveled. We can no longer pump oil out of the country via land routes because the pipelines keep getting blown up. Water systems have been destroyed. We can go into an area and win a battle, but we can't hold those areas."

Everybody knows Baghdad and Faluja are the biggest battlefronts at the moment. What do you expect? Because of people like you, we're pullling the reigns on the strongest military force in the world right now because you, the pacifists and the appeasers don't want to offend anybody.

As far as the loss of life concerned, compare our casualties to any other war in history, and it is a paltry amount. And before anybody gets their panties in a bunch, I think it's terrible that they've lost they're lives because of *terrorists*...not hawkish conservatives. We're in a war, people, we didn't ask for it, but we're in one now. There are *going* to be casualties.

Unbelievable that I have to go into this argument that has been repeated over and over and over. No critical thinking skills in liberal land?

Baggi...where are the news ... (Below threshold)
groucho:

Baggi...where are the news outlets that are providing factual evidence to support your claims? (Hint: Faux news and anyplace the sun don't shine don't count!)

All you've left us is insul... (Below threshold)
joe:

All you've left us is insults Tom.

We tried reason and logic appeals to humanity and any possible other way we could to try to make you cons stop your idiotic war - but you refused to listen. Are the insults working Tom? Because time is running out.

600,000 people have died. More are going to die. What's your plan? Pretend everything is great? Not a single person says that anymore - even among the neocons in the White House.

But you know the "truth", right Tom?

The situation is "grave and deteriorating" according to the bi-partisan Iraq Study Group.

But it's all propaganda, right Tom?

My son called me from Al-Anbar just last night. When he got there 3 months ago he said it was bad but he wasn't afraid. Yesterday he said in the last month it's gotten really, really bad and he's now afraid for his life. He thinks we're losing too, BTW.

Is he a pathetic, spineless worm too? Or can we reserve that insult for those too old to fight but more than willing to send others off to do so?

So far, no answer to the qu... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

So far, no answer to the question: would anyone who think we are losing, get behind an effort to win the war in Iraq?


For God's sake Baggi, get a... (Below threshold)
cat:

For God's sake Baggi, get a grip. The Iraqi army and police are as incapable of controlling Iraq as they ever were. They will never be able to take proper control until you leave, because it is your military presence there that is fanning the flames of insurgency.

You've been sucking on the teat of your government's propaganda for too long and it's softened your brain. You're like a brainwashed member of a cult chanting the mantra MSM! MSM! MSM!

Go to Iraq and find out for yourself just "much, much, much better" things have become - and see how long it takes before you're dispatched to a Much, Much,Much Better Place in the Sky. Your complete inability to grasp any kind of reality is summed up in your final sentence. The so-called "al-Qaeda" is a tiny proportion of the insurgency. Don't you even read what your own military and intelligence agencies say?

And now, a fresh new wor... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

And now, a fresh new wording of the "Bush Lied, People Died" meme, a presumption moonbats will agree with; but nobody else will.

Save for the majority of Americans who threw out right wing politicians and their record of incompetence to the curb. That must still taste a little bitter, Tom.

Grow up. Not that it matters, but I own my own house and I could run you into the ground. I work out 5-7 days a week.

It doesn't, Tom. And neither does your tenuous hold on reality. The rest of America has left your wingnut ranting about "But the Left is worse" behind and want to see things actually get done. So why don't you let the grownups tackle the mess for a while.

Joe:Let me just sa... (Below threshold)

Joe:

Let me just say this. Obviously, I respect your son and anyone who puts their lives on the line. I can't thank them enough.

People who are going to give up the fight for freedom, for the preservation of innocent life, and succumb to appeasment because it's the easy way out are doing exactly what the terrorists want. To a tee.

And, they'll prove Osama Bin Ladin correct. He's the one that said, and I'm paraphrasing, America is a Paper Tiger; if you fight long and hard enough, they'll lose their will and give up the fight. Well, Joe, guess what? We're doing exactly that.

Don't you or anybody else remember what the hell we're fighting for?

Spare me the bullshit of the "Bush Lied, People Died" meme, please.

"We're in a war, people, we... (Below threshold)
cat:

"We're in a war, people, we didn't ask for it..."

Tom, what is the name of your planet?

Matthew:Not bitter... (Below threshold)

Matthew:

Not bitter. Disappointed is more the correct word, now that the "we're losers and the US is evil" attitude won out. You won't catch me screaming that I'm moving to another country; or going to a psychologist because we lost at the polls, unlike you and your friends.

Nice cherry picking of my comments. If you read the entire comment you'll see why I felt the need to say that.

You see, that's the point. This, your BDS rants and Kumbaya mentality is proof that you don't have a grasp on reality or are even close to being grown up. "Taking my toys and going home" is fairly pre-schoolish.

cat:Present Day Ea... (Below threshold)

cat:

Present Day Earth; you must be living somewhere around September 10, 2001.

"Don't you or anybody else ... (Below threshold)
cat:

"Don't you or anybody else remember what the hell we're fighting for?"

Tom, what the hell is it you're fighting for? 600,000 people have been killed for no WMD and no al-Qaeda links (until you invaded) and they continue to die in their thousands. But, since you ask, I don't know what you're fighting for and I don't know what they died for. Please tell us. It certainly can't be to prevent terrorism, because that gets worse by the day.

vagabond,nothing we ... (Below threshold)
jay k.:

vagabond,
nothing we have done to date has slowed the sectarian violence...does that mean we are losing...we are certainly completely ineffectual at this point. as of late i have given up on getting out. i'm not a convert to bushs miopic way of seeing...it's simply too late...it's too far gone. i am looking for an effort to stabilize the middle east that i can get behind. (to answer your question directly...what would victory in iraq be?) the isg report, from what i can gather at this early date, seems to make some sense. the overarching question is what will the bush administration do in response? are they willing to forget politics...the one thing at which they excel...and deal with real policy...something at which they seem totally incompetent. judgeing by bush's comments this morning it does not appear so. time will tell.

You can't win an illegal Wa... (Below threshold)
BG:

You can't win an illegal War of Aggression based on manipulation, distortions, and manufactured intelligence!

Theres a old saying in Texas, I'm sure you have it where you live, it goes like this:

"You can't save your ass and face at the same time"

Sad so many on the left fal... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Sad so many on the left falling over themselves to fulfill the terrorists' dreams...
Just goes to show, if you repeat a lie often enough, you start to actually believe the crap you peddle.

Get comfortable Demo-asshats. When your very survival is at stake, don't come knocking at my door, there'll be a 12 ga. behind it.

9/11? Then, why, Tom did yo... (Below threshold)
cat:

9/11? Then, why, Tom did you not just invade Haiti? Just like Iraq, it had nothing to do with 9/11. But unlike Iraq, it can't fight back.

Hey - you jerks signed on w... (Below threshold)
bobdevo:

Hey - you jerks signed on with Dubbya as your Commander in Chief - and he pulled the most royal F***up in American history.

At least admit you were wrong in thinking a draft-dodging moron was going to be able to lead us to "victory" in a very complex political situation. If you've got a gripe - take it to where the buck stops - with the Imbecile in the Oval Office.

"The left ties our hands be... (Below threshold)
Devil's Advocate:

"The left ties our hands behind our backs militarily...."

Yeah! That's the left all right that has been in charge of the conduct of this war... I guess that makes Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the GOP-controlled Congress over the past six years, a bunch of leftists...

Not bitter. Disappointed... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

Not bitter. Disappointed is more the correct word, now that the "we're losers and the US is evil" attitude won out. You won't catch me screaming that I'm moving to another country; or going to a psychologist because we lost at the polls, unlike you and your friends.

Really? Just for fun I'll humor your strawman. Could you cite specific examples wherein myself or my friends have ever made the claim we would leave the country or see a shrink because of elections? I'd like details, if you have them.

Nice cherry picking of my comments. If you read the entire comment you'll see why I felt the need to say that.
You see, that's the point. This, your BDS rants and Kumbaya mentality is proof that you don't have a grasp on reality or are even close to being grown up. "Taking my toys and going home" is fairly pre-schoolish.

You don't have a point, Tom. Especially nowadays. And I relish the fact that reckless demagogic dinosaurs like yourself have been made so irrelevant and that rational heads have made it into Congress to clean up this 'catastrophic success' as the president calls it. That way you can go back to what you're good at... tilting at windmills and railing against invisible monsters.

Your insistence that we're winning, when even the current nominee for Rumsfeld's position has admitted we are not is why you and your ilk are so marginalized.

Because your lunacy won't be tolerated or legitimized anymore, not when the sick 'stay the course' rhetoric is based in nothing but naive optimism and continues to get our sons and daughters killed. You guys fucked up and didn't have a clue what you were doing. For nearly six years. Your views are a relic, sir. Born of a time when you thought 9/11 could give you a free pass on anything.

Those days are over, chief.

Were I a better entrepreneur, I'd put political ideology like like yours in a museum and start charging admission.

cat:You must've mi... (Below threshold)

cat:

You must've missed the Yellowcake story, the Blood for Oil story, the funding of money from the Iraqi government to al-Quaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah. Wake up and smell the coffee. I never said Iraq had any specific involvement in 9/11, but I do say it funded OUR ENEMIES and terrorist groups that WERE involved. Anybody should be able to see that, unless they simply choose not to.

Lemme guess...you thought Karl Rove was going to be frog-marched to jail...right? And even though he wasn't, you still believe Joe Wilson was telling the truth. (He and his wife sure left the headlines pretty quickly, didn't they?)

Allright, well, it's been fun living in this alternate, history-revisionist reality, but I've got to get some things done around here.

It's obvious to me if you're rehashing all this debunked garbage there won't be any changing of hearts and minds anyhow. We'll just have to call it a day.

Run for your ideological li... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

Run for your ideological life, Tom.

Thanks for responding Jay k... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

Thanks for responding Jay k.

The ISG report is doesn't set policy nor does it need to be implemented.

I agree the area needs to be stablized. So, obviously the best way to stablize the area would be to support not undermine the military's efforts to deal with it?

It appears to me they are trying their best to implement a plan in the face of harsh criticism and subversive efforts by some to discourage the homefront from supporting the war. That plan may not have worked as well in some areas. However, much of it has succeeded.

are they willing to forget politics...the one thing at which they excel.

In what way are they playing politics with it? If they are as you contend in what way are they exceling at it?

Matthew:Before I l... (Below threshold)

Matthew:

Before I leave, how does Alec Baldwin grab you? And there were many, many stories of Democrats going to psychologists after the 2004 elections because John Kerry lost. That's who I meant by your "friends"; fellow Democrats in general.

Invisible monsters, eh? Wow. I guess Nick Berg was beheaded by invisible monsters conjured up by his imagination. I'm sure he'll be relieved to hear that.

Congratulations to you and your victory on November 7th. You're going to be getting exactly what you wanted.

I truly hope you're right and I'm wrong; and that things will get better with Democrats in charge. We'll see.

Sad so many on the left fal... (Below threshold)
Devil's Advocate:

Sad so many on the left falling over themselves to fulfill the terrorists' dreams...
Just goes to show, if you repeat a lie often enough, you start to actually believe the crap you peddle.

Get comfortable Demo-asshats. When your very survival is at stake, don't come knocking at my door, there'll be a 12 ga. behind it.

Posted by: LJD at December 6, 2006 12:55 p.m.

The Chimp has fulfilled the terrorists' dreams with his imbecile policies. The entire world hates us. We have lost our allies. At home, we are being spied upon. The budget is busted for the next five decades... That was Bin Laden's dream and the Chimp stepped right in to make it happen.

As for our survival, right-wing freak, we know you are a useless coward. All you can do is cheer up the carnage in Iraq from the depths of your armchair. You are the one who would come to us shaking and crying and begging us to protect your sorry butt. 12 ga.? You'd probably shoot yourself in the foot if you tried to use it.

Go back sucking on the Kool-Aid, moron.

So what SHOULD a nation who... (Below threshold)
Craig234:

So what SHOULD a nation who has started an unnecessary and wrong war do?

Should the Japanese and Nazis in WWII have ignored any offers for peace by surrender, in order to avoid all the Germans and Japanese who had been killed being insulted?

You sons of bitches are murderers and need to have any power taken from you at the ballot box.

One of the worst reasons for war is so that those killed already aren't 'insulted'.

That works both ways, and just makes unnecessary war longer and bloodier.

Listen carefully: there SHOULD BE A PRICE FOR WRONG WAR.

That price is you having to face the fact that you killed US soldiers and Iraqis needlessly, not have some out of 'victory' where you get to pretend you were right. YOU LOSE. And the only quesiton is how many more you kill in your evil to try to avoid the accountability.

Ha! I guess I meant "Food ... (Below threshold)

Ha! I guess I meant "Food for Oil" not Blood for Oil. Aye Carumba.

Before I leave, how does... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

Before I leave, how does Alec Baldwin grab you? And there were many, many stories of Democrats going to psychologists after the 2004 elections because John Kerry lost. That's who I meant by your "friends"; fellow Democrats in general.

When did I state I was personal friends of Alec Baldwin? For that matter, when did I state I was a Democrat? Thirdly, are there any other stupid conclusions you'd like to come to, since you're on your way out to "do some things around here"? I'm genuinely looking forward to the best you can offer.

Invisible monsters, eh? Wow. I guess Nick Berg was beheaded by invisible monsters conjured up by his imagination. I'm sure he'll be relieved to hear that.

You must've missed my context. Your demonization of 'The Left' is a mighty big umbrella that practically includes anyone who disagrees with your myopic views. Y'know, the Left that will only now result in defeat in Iraq (cause the last few years were just a conservative dress rehearsal). Those invisible monsters. Sure beats taking your own responsibility.

You're welcome to try to distort that into a belief that I've stated that terrorism isn't relevant. God knows, you'll be all day trying to find a legitimate quote backing your claim up.

Congratulations to you and your victory on November 7th. You're going to be getting exactly what you wanted.

Yep. Oversight and some legitimate solutions. Rather than the yearly pep rally we've been getting from corrupt Republicans.

Holy shit, it took 65 comme... (Below threshold)
Bill Hicks:

Holy shit, it took 65 comments for some redneck asshole to talk about shooting somebody. Good stuff, LJD! Maybe you should go practice in Iraq! You might be too old to enlist, but I bet KBR's hiring, ya feckin' douche.

C'mon, we all know that these right-wing lunatics secretly crave an invasion so they can go all Red Dawn all over some evil brown guy's ass who wants to subjugate his wife slightly worse than he already has and ban Dukes of Hazzard reruns. Well, the longer American troops are in Iraq, the closer your semi-subconscious wish is to coming true. WOLVERINES! Go jerk off to Guns & Ammo, LJD.

The conservatardarian "war of ideas" will be a hilarious footnote in history textbooks fifty years from now. I hope your grandkids see your specific names cited alongside the Virgin Ben's and Instafuckwit's, you chickenhawk scum.

O.K. you pussified liberal ... (Below threshold)
LJD:

O.K. you pussified liberal fucktards.

First matthew, the questions is not whether we are winning or losing. The question is what do you do now. Rational people adapt and change strategy so they can WIN AT ALL COSTS. You spineless bitches want to QUIT.

Devil- how appropriate. You poor dumb bastard. You are so comfortable in your life here in the US that you feel you will never have to fend for your own survival? Ever hear of the LA Riots, or hurricane Katrina, Andrew? You are a millisecond away from total chaos every minute of every day.

You know nothing about me, so I'll tell you. I am a well decorated Veteran who has honorably served his country. You are probably at the peak of your pitiful life, toking on the crack pipe and pushing propaganda on the internet.

I know that if and when a catastrophy occurs, resources will become scarce, and you socialist freaks will want me to share the fruits of all my hard work. I know me and my family and friends will be very well cared for.

Victory1 : the ove... (Below threshold)
Jeff Irvin:

Victory

1 : the overcoming of an enemy or antagonist
2 : achievement of mastery or success in a struggle or endeavor against odds or difficulties

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary

"Total" Victory

More of the same? Redundant?

Matthew wrote:Bec... (Below threshold)
lingeringdingleberry:

Matthew wrote:
Because your lunacy won't be tolerated or legitimized anymore, not when the sick 'stay the course' rhetoric is based in nothing but naive optimism and continues to get our sons and daughters killed.

We're only losing it, asshat, because of broadcasters like Matt Lauer going on and saying, "We're losing. We're losing. The red coats are coming. It's over. It's civil war" Demoralizing the American people, a Democratic Congress not backing our allies.

And that's why I don't really understand the point about carping about every casualty, every bombing, every death. War is hell. That's why people say war is hell. At no point during a successful war, I mean, nobody would say after D-day, "Well, that went well." When Americans are dying you never say that's a great thing. But to say we're losing the war is preposterous.

Matthew wrote:
So why don't you let the grownups tackle the mess for a while.

Please do. I live no where even remotely close to a large city, so when the suitcase nuke goes off. Don't forget to duck and cover, appeaser.

10 more U.S. soldiers were ... (Below threshold)
woofyman:

10 more U.S. soldiers were killed today.

This war has already cost us 1 trillion dollars, 3000 soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

A total waste of life and money.

Did you see H.W. Bush break down in tears ?

I love it how the chickenha... (Below threshold)
mick:

I love it how the chickenhawk neo-cons are the one's who determine how many hundred thousand dead Iraqi civilians and U.S. troops are worth "victory"....particularly when victory will constitute the eventual election of a stable, Iran-alligned
shiite government.

Why are you people so stupid?

Tom Blogical:"but... (Below threshold)
BG:

Tom Blogical:
"but I do say it funded OUR ENEMIES and terrorist groups that WERE involved. Anybody should be able to see that, unless they simply choose not to."

You nean like when Reagan supported and funded the Mujaheddin which is Al Qaeda, or when the Bush administration gave the Taliban $43 million??

Or when the Pakistani ISI (CIA created & funded)Director Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed wired Atta $100,000 a few weeks before 9/11, he was also in Washington D.C the morning of 9/11 meeting with Senate Intelligence Committee. The FBI followed the money to him & ISI and did nothing...wonder why??

mick--because they let peop... (Below threshold)
Bill Hicks:

mick--because they let people like Douglas "fucking stupidest guy on the face of the Earth" Feith (to quote Tommy Franks) and Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle and Donald Rumsfeld and Ahmed Chalabi and Brit Hume and Dick Cheney do their thinking for them.

This has been another edition of easy answers to silly questions.

Matthew:Since my d... (Below threshold)

Matthew:

Since my daughter is still finishing her lunch, I have one more response for you.

Never. When did *I* state you were "personal" friends with Alec Baldwin? As I noted, friends in general. Learn to read and interpret English.

It's hard not to conclude you're a liberal with some of the arguments you're posing. You also pretty much admitted you didn't vote Republican and voted Democrat last time around. Well gee, excuse the hell out of me for assuming something that seemed fairly obvious, since you neglected to indicate otherwise.

Nick Berg topic: These are the monsters we're fighting. When did I distort your opinion? You DID say I was fighting invisible monsters...right? (pssst...that's a rhetorical question...you don't have to answer) I can re-quote you, but you know what you said...I think.

I disagree with your premise that we've "lost" in Iraq. Once again, we haven't lost any strategic land or economic resources, etc. We're losing the propaganda war, and you're helping.

Corrupt Republicans. As if there are no corrupt Democrats, Libertarians, or Green Party members. Let me break it to you Sparky, corruption isn't just a Republican party issue. William Jefferson, William Jefferson Clinton, Sandy Berger, just to name a few Dems.

I'm genuinely hopeful the changes from the last election cycle will be good for the country. I highly doubt it will, but I can do nothing but hope.

Oh, and as for your presumptuous, pompous attitude...you are cordially invited to kiss my ass.

I think, Tom, that this wil... (Below threshold)
cat:

I think, Tom, that this will be my last reply to your strange ramblings.

Yellowcake? Iraq already had plenty of yellowcake and had no need to import any from Niger. Before your catastrophic war, that yellowcake was under IAEA safeguards, regularly inspected and none of it was diverted to anything. Unfortunately, when your brilliantly conceived invasion plans were executed, for some unknown reason no one saw fit to secure that yellowcake and it was looted. So thank you, Tom. You made us all a hell of a lot safer with that one.

Blood for Oil? I'm sorry, you've completely lost me on this one. I checked Google to find out what I'd missed, but remain completely mystified.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-10,GGGL:en&q=blood+for+oil

Funding for al-Qaeda? (By the way, most people agree there is no "u" in that word.) Tom, when was the last time you read a book without pages made of cardboard and pictures that pop up? What al-Qaeda funding?

Funding for Hamas? I disagree with Hamas on many things, but its sole aim is justice for the Palestinians who have suffered decades of ethnic cleansing at the hands of Israel. Hamas had nothing to do with al-Qaeda or 9/11. And when al-Qaeda offered support in Gaza, Hamas told it to go away and mind its own business.

Funding for Hezbollah? ? ? ? Please explain.

I salute you Tom. You appear to have boldly gone where no Flopping Wizmalgfjwawan has gone before. You have surpassed all known "alternate, history-revisionist... rehashing" of "debunked garbage" and created brand new garbage that you can proudly call your very own.

First matthew, the quest... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

First matthew, the questions is not whether we are winning or losing. The question is what do you do now. Rational people adapt and change strategy so they can WIN AT ALL COSTS. You spineless bitches want to QUIT.

No, LJD, the question IS whether we are winning or losing. White House insists we're winning, all the while our men and women are being fed into an endless thresher, with no plan or result of their prescence there in sight. First it was WMD, then it was Iraqis voting, then it was the constitution, then it was enough police to handle the violence. All of it's come and gone and the interfactional strife just gets more and more insane.

Now you might be the kind of brain-damaged simpleton who thinks there's a pony in a room full of horseshit OR you might be able to understand the civil war meltdown that's going on over there like the rest of America. I honestly don't give a damn which you choose, as it's not a matter of IF we pull out of Iraq but how soon. There are only a few options.

Either we let Kurds, Shias and Sunnis carve the place up three ways and get the hell out of Dodge or we kick up the draft and start putting the right number of boots on the ground (and we're talking D-Day numbers). And that's not likely a political bullet anyone in Washington is going to take. So unless we start seeing Selective Service get more active in the next year or so, the fact is we're waving our dicks in the wind over there. No offense, LJD, but your belief that we can win "AT ALL COSTS" is a comfortable little pipe dream.

I'm not a believer in complete withdrawal. Now that Bush has thrown a tea party for terrorists and given them a new place to grow, we have no choice but to see the place sorted out. But to blame this mess on Democrats is just about the stupidest thing I've seen from some people here. Answers don't lie in perpetual optimism or on ignoring the mess you've made. They lie in actually looking at the goddamn problem with some grasp of reality. If you can't even come to terms with the nature of the region, than seriously... get the fuck out of the way and let someone else work on an answer.

Actually, the problem lies ... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Actually, the problem lies in the fact that there a a whole bunch of crazy MFers over there that want to saw your head off because you aren't one of them, and feel free to state your opinion.

At least you have given us some real insight into the Dem strategy on Iraq- taking 'political bullets'. This isn't about WMD, national security or our troops. It's about political ass-covering.

Dare I ask, what WOULD be worth staying the course? How can some one with no balls know so much about waving his dick in the wind?

vagabond..."...So, o... (Below threshold)
jay k.:

vagabond...
"...So, obviously the best way to stablize the area would be to support not undermine the military's efforts to deal with it..."
that leap to conclusion assumes facts not in evidence. first who is undermining the military? you can question the civilian policy without undermining the military. be careful what you conflate. also the solution may be, as indicated by many parties outside the administation, less military and more diplomatic.
they are trying to implement a plan that has not worked for four years. i say it's not so much that anyone is trying to discourage support...realists are finally saying look...IT IS NOT WORKING. be honest...very little has succeeded. you have in place an impotent government...that even if it had any strength would be closer to an iranian theocracy than a democracy. services are down from pre-war. the average citizen has more to fear than before our occupation. and the country is essentially split into a shia/iranian run south, a kurdish north, and a civil war in the middle.
bush goes out on the trail and says we're winning...but the opponents want to cut and run...even though no one i've heard of advocated cutting and running. he gets the press to say the opponents want to cut and run. he gets the pajama media to say the opponents want to cut and run. in the meantime his sod is preparing a memo outlining pretty much, with minor differences, what the opponents have been saying...which of course is not cutting and running. that's the politics of the situation. that's what they excel at. but it's time for that to end. it's gotten serious.

cat:As I mentioned... (Below threshold)

cat:

As I mentioned before in another comment, "Food for oil". You may have missed it.

Yellowcake. Maybe they did already have it, but it doesn't change the fact that they tried to acquire it, and it was one of many fundamental reasons we went to war with Iraq. Oh, and *posessing* it already broke one of the many existing UN agreements.

Al-Quaeda/Al-Qaeda. I did a brief spell check with Google (wrong tool, I know) and found both spellings. So I'm wrong. Although it's a minor infraction, compared to my main point. As for your insult, screw you. One misspelled word and you're attacking my intelligence? Nice. But that's how you libtards "debate".

Hamas? They are active terrorists against one of our allies; Isreal, just in case you didn't know. If you can't understand how that fits, then nobody can help you.

Perhaps I'm wrong on the Hezbollah funding. I got in a hurry and didn't fact check. I'll take your word for it that I'm wrong. I can admit things like that. Anyway, sue me. Iraq *STILL* funded al-Qaeda. The fact that I'm potentially wrong on Hezbollah doesn't change that. Nice try with the distraction technique.

I really have to go, it's been "fun".

for all of you dead enders ... (Below threshold)
jvf:

for all of you dead enders who blame the left for our predicament (despite the fact that this war was dreamt up by Rebublicans, and administered by Rebublicans, and and yes, bungled by Republicans) i have 2 words for you

assymetrical warfare.

Baggi, excuse me while I fa... (Below threshold)
carolha:

Baggi, excuse me while I fall down laughing. We've improved the Iraqi Police? Ha Ha. My son works in a military intelligence unit and they do not trust the IP one inch. They are never sure who the police work for, and when they interigate an insurgent one of the best ways to get him to talk is to threaten to turn him over to IP or the Iraqi Army.

cat:I can't believ... (Below threshold)

cat:

I can't believe I forgot this little gem of yours: If it was safeguarded, then your point is moot. That's uh...why they went after more so it could be diverted to where they wanted it to go. Think outside the box, please.

Tom, this is absolutely my ... (Below threshold)
cat:

Tom, this is absolutely my last reply. My insult had nothing to do with your misspelling of al-Qaeda. (We all suffer from typos, but at this stage you really shouldn't have to check Google to find out how to spell the name of your enemy.) I fired my second cheap shot at your insistence that Iraq had funded al-Qaeda - a bizarre claim that you have now repeated.

And Hamas? Please, God! Hamas would never have come into existence if Israel had just given the Palestinians the 23% of their original homeland that Resolution 242 demands.

Wow. The armchair warriors ... (Below threshold)
wtmusic:

Wow. The armchair warriors are coming out of the woodwork.

The war is lost. It was lost before it started. We had no right to invade Iraq. Vietnam all over again. You can stick your head in the sand, you can yell and moan, you can enlist and try to "help" or (worst of all) you can whine that it's all because of the liberals on some blog, like y'all are. Doesn't matter.

Payback's a bitch, ain't it?

Two for the price of one, t... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

Two for the price of one, today.

We're only losing it, asshat, because of broadcasters like Matt Lauer going on and saying, "We're losing. We're losing. The red coats are coming. It's over. It's civil war" Demoralizing the American people, a Democratic Congress not backing our allies.

Reality seems to have a liberal bias, dingleberry. That's some priceless acrobatics in rhetoric you've got going on there. "Our soldiers are only getting killed because the American Media isn't clapping harder". It's a shame the real world conspires so against conservatives. :(

Since my daughter is still finishing her lunch, I have one more response for you. Never. When did *I* state you were "personal" friends with Alec Baldwin? As I noted, friends in general. Learn to read and interpret English.

I'm still waiting for some kind of evidence I'm friends with Alec Baldwin on any level. By your rationale (that people who vote similarly or share political ideals are somehow magically pals), you, Neal Horsley, and the BTK Killer must be drinking buddies and partners in crime. THAT's got to make for some interesting stories, I'm sure.

It's hard not to conclude you're a liberal with some of the arguments you're posing. You also pretty much admitted you didn't vote Republican and voted Democrat last time around.

The irony is my arguments aren't liberal. They're mainstream. It's you, sir, that are the fringe extreme. As for your second statement, quote in full where I "pretty much admitted" I didn't vote Republican and voted Democrat last time around.

I'll be waiting.

Well gee, excuse the hell out of me for assuming something that seemed fairly obvious, since you neglected to indicate otherwise.

So obvious it's just a quote away, eh? :)

Nick Berg topic: These are the monsters we're fighting. When did I distort your opinion? You DID say I was fighting invisible monsters...right? (pssst...that's a rhetorical question...you don't have to answer) I can re-quote you, but you know what you said...I think.

You think wrong, gunslinger. But please... feel free to "re-quote" me wherein I've stated that terrorism is invisible.

I disagree with your premise that we've "lost" in Iraq. Once again, we haven't lost any strategic land or economic resources, etc. We're losing the propaganda war, and you're helping.

CLAP LOUDER, DAMMIT! CLAP LOUDER OR WE DIE!

The irony is, Tom, is you've already helped terrorist's gain new ground the minute you cheerlead the Iraq invasion. Iraq is a hotbed of terrorist activity. And America has you and your pundit ilk to thank for that.

Thanks, asshole.

Corrupt Republicans. As if there are no corrupt Democrats, Libertarians, or Green Party members. Let me break it to you Sparky, corruption isn't just a Republican party issue. William Jefferson, William Jefferson Clinton, Sandy Berger, just to name a few Dems.

How kooky! I was just telling a friend of mine that it was all those corrupt Democrats that resulted in the GOP being handed their ass.

What year do you live in, Tom?

Oh, and as for your presumptuous, pompous attitude...you are cordially invited to kiss my ass.

And disturb the wealth of lies and strawmen you keep up there for rapid deployment... no thanks.

Joe, your son's experience ... (Below threshold)
carolh:

Joe, your son's experience is the same as mine. My son is also in Anbar Province, Ramadi is the capital there. He says that the situation is much, much worse than it was 3 months ago when he arrives and every time he goes out on a mission something happens. Things are definately not getting better there. And for all those who say they are being held back on their missions, tell me this, who do you kill? Everyone? In a place where you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys it is impossible to achieve "victory" by military means.

that leap to conclusion ... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

that leap to conclusion assumes facts not in evidence. first who is undermining the military?

CNN airing terrorists snipers picking off our soldiers comes to mind. If you don't think this is undermining then it's pointless to continue.

IT IS NOT WORKING. be honest...very little has succeeded

There are areas that need improvement but many soldiers give glowing reports of what IS WORKING.

he gets the press to say the opponents want to cut and run.

actually I think Murtha said that.

Joe and carolh - I pray tha... (Below threshold)
cat:

Joe and carolh - I pray that your sons stay safe.

Kim - I'm truly sorry about your loss, but when are you going to stop demanding that even more die for your disastrous mistake?

carolh: My son is at Camp T... (Below threshold)
joe:

carolh: My son is at Camp TQ. When he got there he called home and said "this is really fun, we go out for a few hours on convoy and come back to steak and lobster at the base, it's like a movie".

Frankly I was appalled, but I kept my mouth shut.

Now he goes out for 2 weeks at a time, in sort of a base-by-base tour of Al-Anbar. Some of the places are now really dangerous, including the ones he originally went to that he thought were "fun". He said "I'm done, I don't need to see any more, I want to come home".

And 10 more were killed today, 5 in Anbar. Is he one of them? Probably not, but somewhere today 10 American families are going to find out that their child was killed.

I'd just like someone to explain why we are even debating this anymore.

Good luck.

vagabond...cnn was r... (Below threshold)
jay k.:

vagabond...
cnn was reporting reality. it's a military action. they said where the video came from. to say that cnn wants to undermine the military is ludicrous.
even bushs british lapdog today said it isn't working. i'm sure some good things have happened. but taken on the whole it is not.
show me where anyone said we need to cut and run. that is an administration construct. murtha wanted to redeploy in the same manner than the sod recommended.

Oh Joe, my heart goes out t... (Below threshold)
carolh:

Oh Joe, my heart goes out to you. Fortunately, my son is home on leave right now but starts back Friday morning. This times, at least, I do not have to worry that he is one of the ones killed, but you are right, somewhere in this country 10 families are going to have their hearts broken. Also, we hear that 10 were killed, but how many were wounded in these IED attacks? For those who say we are not fighting hard enough, how do you fight back against IEDs? My son's unit tries to find out, but it is very hard going.

I've said this before but I... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

I've said this before but I think after reading most of the leftie comments on this thread it's repeating: Those who what the US to win will focus on, stress, and yes maybe even eggagerate the positive (for the US); those that want the terrorists to win (even though they'd never admit it or even recognize that simple fact about themselves) will focus on, stress, and eggerate the negative (for the US).

Just keep that in mind as you read these posts or add your comments to them.

So, if we just think positi... (Below threshold)
Jeff Irvin:

So, if we just think positive everything will be well? The bombings will stop? The snipers will eventually put down their rifles? There will be no more kidnappings and revenge killings? Iran and Syria will acquiesce to the creation of a democratic, pro-western state in the middle of the Arab world?

Wow! If this works I think Israel may want to adopt this grand strategy.

LJD,So you're a Vi... (Below threshold)
Robert:

LJD,

So you're a Vietnam Vet. BFD, so was John Kerry.
That bit of news and $2.75 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

If this is a struggle for civilization and you think we should do everything to win, then get your ass over there on the front lines.
No BS about you already served, or you're too old. Too old for what? Saving civilization?

Another "this is the most important thing in the history of the world" guy. Important enough to do everything but make the ultimate sacrafice.
America-hater!


PBunyan,
Tha art of war, Peter Pan style.

"I'm still waiting for some... (Below threshold)

"I'm still waiting for some kind of evidence I'm friends with Alec Baldwin on any level."

You are freaking idiot. The fact I would have to explain what I meant in that context proves you're not even worth having a conversation with. I'm not reading any more of your mindless drivel; nor responding to it.

Tool.

Well hell Tom... here I tho... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

Well hell Tom... here I thought, by your own statements, you were outta here posts ago. You're not a glutton for punishment, are you?

Or does the fact that I easily deflated your little insinuation that Alec Baldwin speaks for me have anything to do with your whining?

Anything else you want taken to task?

Matthew,You and Al... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Matthew,

You and Alek do, at least based on your posts this thread, appear to have the same worldview. If that fact bothers you, maybe you need to take some stock of yourself. If it doesn't bother you then why are you arguing with Tom about something so trivial?

"Devil- how appropriate. Yo... (Below threshold)
Devil's Advocate:

"Devil- how appropriate. You poor dumb bastard. You are so comfortable in your life here in the US that you feel you will never have to fend for your own survival? Ever hear of the LA Riots, or hurricane Katrina, Andrew? You are a millisecond away from total chaos every minute of every day."

Hey crackhead, I was in Tower I of the WTC on 9/11. You would likely have shat your pants had you had to walk down 28 floors of a building in flamnes.

Veteran? Yeah, right. You are a coward. That's in addition to being crassly ignorant and abysmally stupid. Go sink your fat ass back into your armchair in your smelly trailer and watch Fox News.

"...resources will become scarce...". You bet: your welfare checks will be cut off, because the people like me who pay for lazy retarded hicks like you will be too busy taking care of their own families and friends.

vagabond...cnn wa... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

vagabond...
cnn was reporting reality.

Gain the trust of the enemy to show film of our soldiers getting killed? really? and really think about this....why?

and why not show film from the perspective of OUR troops picking off terrorists? because that is not as demoralizing?

See if you can't accept that one point, might as well be teaching pigs to sing.

It would be easier to teach... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

It would be easier to teach a pig to sing then to get most of the lefties who post here to recognize their own hypocracy, see the big picture, or recognize which side CNN et. al. are aiding and abeting in this conflict.

P Bunyan:You're ri... (Below threshold)

P Bunyan:

You're right, it was trivial. I just couldn't stop myself, even though I should have long ago. It was like watching a train wreck. Argh.

You and Alek do, at leas... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

You and Alek do, at least based on your posts this thread, appear to have the same worldview. If that fact bothers you, maybe you need to take some stock of yourself. If it doesn't bother you then why are you arguing with Tom about something so trivial?

That's funny, Paul. As it would seem MOST Americans share that same worldview. What a crazy world we live in when you guys are wrong with the majority of Americans.

Do you drink coffee? I drink coffee. That must make us PALS!

As for Tom's lies about my Alec Baldwin association, hell if I know why it's being dragged around. I'm far more curious in Tom's specious argument that everything in Iraq is coming up roses.

Matthew blathered:<b... (Below threshold)
lingeringdingleberry:

Matthew blathered:
Reality seems to have a liberal bias, dingleberry. That's some priceless acrobatics in rhetoric you've got going on there. "Our soldiers are only getting killed because the American Media isn't clapping harder".

Listen genius: I'm positive that the Cheetos powder that you've been inhaling all these years, while living in your mother's basement has addled your ability to learn from the lessons of history. So for you and all the other comprehension deficient libbys out there (and I will try to use small words): When the people of the US lose their stomach for war, Senators and Representatives start worrying about losing their jobs. The liberal media's constant mis-reporting, misconstruing, leaking of classified materials, etc., has painted the Iraq war as a lost cause.

Most people are not intelligent enough to think for themselves (something you seem to know about), so whatever is spoonfed to them from slanted sources such as NBC or NPR, is the same clap they regurgitate (that means puke) on these blogs.

Never mind that the Butcher of Baghdad is no longer slaughtering his own people. Never mind that for the first time in decades the citizens of Iraq, including women, are participating in their own government. Never mind that much of the dissent is being instigated from outside Iraq.

Please continue to piss on the American effort to help the Iraqi people take those first steps toward Democracy.

You liberals think that pulling out all of the troops and cutting and running will magically solve all of the problems facing that nation today.

I suppose you'd rather have that suitcase bomb go off somewhere in our nation. Honestly, the lot of you and your malcontented lemming ilk make me physically ill.

Matthew:Train wrec... (Below threshold)

Matthew:

Train wreck.

If you really think I meant friend in a literal sense, then you really are dumber than I thought you were. Are you really that obtuse, or just trying to get under my skin? I hope, for your sake, it's the latter.

Matthew, This is no... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Matthew,
This is not the first time. The last time the American bought the lies from the liberal left in VietNam, the consequence was not pretty. 1/3 of Cambodian population was killed in a massive genocide. The liberals wanted to appease the Soviet Union and proclaimed that we couldn't win and had to co-exist with such an evil system at best. The public went along with Chamberlain. Even Churchill was voted out of office after WW2. We live in a democracy, so we respect the vote of the majority of the AMerican people. But there is nothing inspring about the liberal ideology. In fact, there is plenty to despise a movement that has been willing to propagandize on behalf of the worst tyrants/killers in the history. Unfortunately, the Dems win this round of the election. We can only hope, since the Dems seem to repeat VN in Iraq. This time, the consequence won't be confined to Iraq. It will touch the US main land.

"As it would seem MOST A... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"As it would seem MOST Americans share that same worldview."

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.

Dispite bogus and misleading poll numbers, I belive the best available evidence suggests that about 18% of Americans agree with you and Alex, Matthew.

Now I agree the to member of the fabricated reality based community, 18% does mean "most" but it does not mean that to everyone.

LAI,Remember that ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

LAI,

Remember that in order to get elected, many of the "democrats" had to run as conservatives (the "blue dogs") so all hope is not yet lost. If they were being honest there will still be a conservative (pro-victory) majority in congress, although not a Republican one.

Of course only time will tell if they were being honest and history seems not to support that conclusion. I however choose to remain optimist until proven wrong.

Boy, I've got to start proo... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Boy, I've got to start proof reading better before I hit post....

Oh well, hopefully you got my point.

Dear Mr. Lingeringdingleber... (Below threshold)
Jeff Irvin:

Dear Mr. Lingeringdingleberry,

Did you feel the same way about the intelligence of the American people when they voted twice in the last six years to allow the Republicans to control the country?

You talk about Iraqi democracy and yet seem to think the American people are not smart enough to run their own country because they are too easily influenced by the media. How much more the Iraqi people who have never been acquainted with it--at least in a secular way?

Are you trying to have it both ways? Should we listen to the voice of the people or not--even if they have been deceived by the "liberal" press?

Should we listen to Iraqis who appear by a healthy majority to want us to leave--even though they might be influenced by the misguided thought that the violence will end once the American military is gone?

I find it interesting that both the left and the right are quick to abandon democracy when it does not suit them anymore. So, they turn to the courts because they cannot get their way in the legislature, or they try to elect a president that will thwart the Congress at every turn--even though it might reflect the general will of the people.

It just shows that those on the extremes of both the left and the right are no real lovers of democracy but rather more interested in just getting their own way--even at the expense of the general will.

"Boy, I've got to start pro... (Below threshold)

"Boy, I've got to start proof reading better before I hit post...."

Tell me about it. I've had the same problem today.

Really, it's stupid mindles... (Below threshold)
joe:

Really, it's stupid mindless comments like "you don't see the big picture of what side CNN is on" that make me realize that wingnuts are just that: nuts.

What SIDE is CNN on? WTF are you talking about? Al-Qaeda? Why in the the world would giant American corporation CNN be hoping for the deaths of Americans? Or their failure in this war?

But of course, you give yourself away. Your "side" is whatever YOU happen to believe in. It's not America or our soldiers or the mission or cause or whatever. It just your own personal beliefs, beliefs colored by emotion and tribalism and irrationality and personal animus. So CNN disagrees with you (or rather, reports facts you don't like) and they're "on the other side", just like the people who want to fix the problem in Iraq.

I've decided that in the case of Iraq all you wingnuts care about is saving face, and you'd happily send a million soldiers off to their deaths to maintain this. You're perfectly happy to kill as many of your countrymen as needed to avoid confronting our American failure - which is of course really your failure.

You righties have no credibility. You screwed the pooch in Iraq from day one. You take no risks, sacrifice nothing and contribute nothing but hot air and emotionalism.

You're a sad bunch.

"What SIDE is CNN on? WTF a... (Below threshold)

"What SIDE is CNN on? WTF are you talking about? Al-Qaeda? Why in the the world would giant American corporation CNN be hoping for the deaths of Americans? Or their failure in this war?"

Google this:

eason jordan refuses to report on atrocities

Gee, I wonder why CNN can't be trusted.

This is idiotic logic. Asid... (Below threshold)
maggysturn:

This is idiotic logic. Aside from the fact I can't enlist because of my age, you've now just disqualified yourself from criticizing any job you've never done before. Like, for example, the Presidency. Congratulations. I will, however, continue to support the troops in any other way that I can.
Janew:
Grow up. Not that it matters, but I own my own house and I could run you into the ground. I work out 5-7 days a week.
Posted by: Tom Blogical at December 6, 2006 12:07

Hahaha. This guy is a total joke. Sounds a little defensive to me. Yeah, he "works out" (on his computer keyboard) 5-7 days a week. Hahaha. As far as "supporting the troops any way I can", why don't you volunteer in Iraq, Tom? They need medics, people to serve meals, etc. Every time you respond, you prove what a total liar/coward/fool you are.

The republicans lost on 11/07, and they just can't stop whining about it.

If it's any consolation Tom... (Below threshold)
gregdn:

If it's any consolation Tom you can take comfort in the fact that the Iraqis, not the Americans have lost this war.
We offered 'em Democracy, they chose tribal rivalry.

Still insisting on the Chic... (Below threshold)

Still insisting on the Chickenhawk meme despite being completely pounded on the logic of such an argument? Whatever. I discussed it with my family. There are more reasons for me to stay home than there are for me to go; not that it's any of your business. That's why it's a volunteer military. I'd bet though, if Charlie Rangel's Draft proposal went through, you'd be first to try to dodge it.

I hate to burst your clueless bubble, but Fitness just happens to be my profession. Nice try with the old "insult to try and discredit my argument" ploy.

gregdn:

There is no consolation. I'm hoping we can overcome all the obstacles and the Democracy holds together.

And for godsakes, forget th... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

And for godsakes, forget that invasion thing ever happened to kick it all off.

You guys are priceless.

And for godsakes, forget th... (Below threshold)

And for godsakes, forget that Congress and the UN voted overwhelmingly in favor of the Invasion thing...twice.

You guys are priceless.

"...CNN disagrees with you ... (Below threshold)
Keith:

"...CNN disagrees with you (or rather, reports facts..."

CNN doesn't report facts.

"At least admit you were wr... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

"At least admit you were wrong in thinking a draft-dodging moron was going to be able to lead us to "victory" in a very complex political situation. If you've got a gripe - take it to where the buck stops - with the Imbecile in the Oval Office."

BJ Clinton.

Tom,First off, on ... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

Tom,

First off, on what batshit parallel world that you live on that the UN Security Council "voted overwhelmingly" in the invasion of Iraq.

The stupidity of that statement wouldn't be nearly as comical if it wasn't so easily Googleable.

Second, what does the WMD we went in to find...and to vindicate a military response to Resolution 1441... have to do with the situation as it stands in the present day?

Like the Democrats exam... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

Like the Democrats example in the Past 6 years , terrorists have adopted their strategy of obstruction, lies , propaganda and staged events and photos. The Democrats won back part of the Power they fiend for like a crack addicts through these shameless tactics. So too will the Terrorists if we let their partners and mentors aid them further towards victory. And all the democrat feinds here crying and lying can say is "nu uhh!".

The criminal cocksuckers aren't through yet until they decieve their way back into the White House. Only then will they finally be able to throw away all their bottles of Viagra for they will once again have a permanent one. And of course claim to be able to protect this Country.

Again, you taking a single ... (Below threshold)
joe:

Again, you taking a single issue you disagree with their reporting on and are using it to say they are "with the enemy" Or, CNN doesn't report facts.

All of these things are ludicrous on their face. They are de facto untrue. Want proof?

CNN headline right now: "Clothing trail led to dead dad".

How is this not true? Isn't that a "fact" Keith? It's a silly question to ask but you leave no choice.

Again, you can't possible believe a major American corporation are actually terrorist sympathizers or terrorists themselves. You're simply protecting your ego from truths you don't want to accept. This is perfectly fine if you keep it to yourself. Sit in the basement and mumble to yourself if you want. But when you set in motion actions with your magical thinking that cost people their lives you have to be stopped.

And we are at that point with Iraq and again you have nothing to offer.


"I'd just like someone t... (Below threshold)
WhenTheChickenhawkBitesYouInTheAss:

"I'd just like someone to explain why we are even debating this anymore.

Good luck.

Posted by: joe at December 6, 2006 03:09 PM"

Goddam right, joe. Now that the Dems have been narrowly elected to Congress, there should be no more debate. We should just do what they say. Of course, many of them are saying we need more troops over there, despite what the military says.

I'm sure you'll be first in line, right joe? Matthew, maggie, etc.. you too, right?

Joe, "You righ... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

Joe,

"You righties have no credibility. You screwed the pooch in Iraq from day one. You take no risks, sacrifice nothing and contribute nothing but hot air and emotionalism."

F**K you shit for brains. I'm registered Democratic and I'm no "Righty". I am an American you jackoff. Your the same idiot who believe that 600,000 death count put out by 3 Baathist Professors and deepthroated by your favorite Media outlets. Terrorist Media , Democrat Media it's all the same. All propaganda , lies , emotion and no fact checking because it all about the democrat party of perpetual fraud. The democrat fiends must get back complete power so they can stop me from being able to expose them , appose them and shove the facts in their face. Just ask what having the House and Senate did for that illiterate babbling Bimbo Streisand.

What happened to all that talk of "Civil War" in this Country your side was talking about before Nov. 7, 2006? You are a bunch of fork tongue lying frauds.

Matthew:That paral... (Below threshold)

Matthew:

That parallel universe is called reality. The fact that the UN voted for it twice is fine enough for me. The fact that they agreed with it is overwhelming enough. Dontcha think? (Rhetorical question, you don't have to answer that.)

LOL!! The fact that you're flailing around bringing up the WMD issue is proof that you're desperate. The Clinton administration was convinced they had them while they were in office; so was the rest of the world at the time we invaded, and you know it. This was just one of the many reasons we did so, and you damn well know that, too. Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it now?

You lose. Have a great evening.

I live no where even rem... (Below threshold)
benjoya:

I live no where even remotely close to a large city

Like most terrorism "experts"

Goddam right, joe. Now t... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

Goddam right, joe. Now that the Dems have been narrowly elected to Congress, there should be no more debate. We should just do what they say. Of course, many of them are saying we need more troops over there, despite what the military says.

Other than Rangel, I'd be curious to see you source your claims that "many" Democrats are advocating increasing troop levels. Fact is Republicans like McCain are pushing for beefing up the military. Who of the Democrats is advocating same?

As for whether generals are for or against that bolstering, it depends on who you ask.


That parallel universe i... (Below threshold)
Matthew:

That parallel universe is called reality. The fact that the UN voted for it twice is fine enough for me. The fact that they agreed with it is overwhelming enough. Dontcha think? (Rhetorical question, you don't have to answer that.)

Hahaha! I'm dying to see your source. Because the fact is the resolution the US and the UK tried to get the UN Security Council to vote on was dropped. Why? Because France, Russia, Germany, China and others said they'd vote against it.

It's not rocket science, Tom.

How exactly is that synonymous with 'voted overwhelmingly' for the invasion twice?

Matthew:You're rig... (Below threshold)

Matthew:

You're right, the UN didn't agree with us twice, but once with 1441. I stand corrected. Now, let's take a look at why shall we?

From Wikipedia:

"United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 is a resolution by the UN Security Council, passed unanimously on November 8, 2002, offering Iraq "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" that had been set out in several previous resolutions (Resolution 660, Resolution 661, Resolution 678, Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, and Resolution 1284)."

A final opportunity. And note all the previous resolutions. They were really, really serious this time.

Now, lets look at the main reasons the second one was dropped.

France, Russia, and China were the principle countries against it. Hmmm. I wonder why? Again, Wikipedia:

"However, the two countries to profit most from the program were allegedly France and Russia. These two countries were the strongest supporters of lifting UN-imposed sanctions against Iraq and were also against the 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq."

*and*

"Peter van Walsum, the now-retired Ambassador of the Netherlands to the United Nations and chairman of the Iraq sanctions committee from 1999 to 2000, speculated in a recent book that Iraq deliberately divided the Security Council by awarding contracts to France, Russia, and China but not to the United Kingdom and the United States. He also stated he encountered a number of cases in which he felt the lack of Iraqi cooperation was designed to exacerbate the suffering of its own people. He also claimed that it was his opinion that the sanctions were not an effective deterrent."

You're right. It's not rocket science. And *your* representatives supported it twice. The UN limp-wristedly supported us once.

Now we know why they were so limp-wristed, don't we? The three countries in question and the UN in general got caught with their hand in the cookie jar in that little mess, now didn't they?

You still lose. Goodnight.

"However, the two countries... (Below threshold)

"However, the two countries to profit most from the program were allegedly France and Russia. These two countries were the strongest supporters of lifting UN-imposed sanctions against Iraq and were also against the 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq."

I failed to mention that this came from the Oil-for-Food Wikipedia entry...

I gotta hand it to Tom B. E... (Below threshold)
Brian:

I gotta hand it to Tom B. Each and every point he made was shot down by the facts, over and over, but he still came back with more made up sh*t each time. Although the world he lives in is a pitiful one, ya gotta admire his tenacity.

Rob from LA: nice language.... (Below threshold)
joe:

Rob from LA: nice language. Thanks for proving my point. You wingnuts are lunatics.

WhenTheChickenhawkBitesYouInTheAss: yep, you're correct. You lost, the American people rejected your bankrupt philosophy so go away.

Tom: yes, we do lose. All of us. At least those of us who have made sacrifices and put our family in harms way even thought we knew it was wrong. It's called honor. But that wouldn't be you now, would it? Limp wristed my ass you chickenhawk. Put up or shut up.

Tom Blogical: "There are mo... (Below threshold)
wtmusic:

Tom Blogical: "There are more reasons for me to stay home than there are for me to go; not that it's any of your business."

Funny, it's always that way. Always something to do around the house, eh? Hang up some drapes, take the garbage out.."Honey, mind if I go back up my pitiful whining by enlisting and showing a spot of courage--oops, I forgot! IT'S BOWLING NIGHT!..."

It's the Dubyas, the Cheneys, the Rumsfelds, the Limbaughs, the Hannities, the Roves, the people like you--who have never sacrificed a day of their lives for their country, yet somehow feel they have the right to send truly brave young Americans to their deaths. Anyone's blood but their own. To all of you pitiful, disgusting cowards--may you one day reap what you've sown.

Wow, you guys are hilarious... (Below threshold)
LJD:

Wow, you guys are hilarious, in sick and twisted way:

-As for our survival, right-wing freak, we know you are a useless coward. All you can do is cheer up the carnage in Iraq from the depths of your armchair. You are the one who would come to us shaking and crying and begging us to protect your sorry butt.

-Maybe you should go practice in Iraq! You might be too old to enlist, but I bet KBR's hiring, ya feckin' douche. C'mon, we all know that these right-wing lunatics secretly crave an invasion so they can go all Red Dawn all over some evil brown guy's ass who wants to subjugate his wife slightly worse than he already has and ban Dukes of Hazzard reruns. Well, the longer American troops are in Iraq, the closer your semi-subconscious wish is to coming true. WOLVERINES! Go jerk off to Guns & Ammo

-Veteran? Yeah, right. You are a coward. That's in addition to being crassly ignorant and abysmally stupid. Go sink your fat ass back into your armchair in your smelly trailer and watch Fox News.

-"...resources will become scarce...". You bet: your welfare checks will be cut off, because the people like me who pay for lazy retarded hicks like you will be too busy taking care of their own families and friends.

With this type of imagination, it's know wonder you think you have everything figured out.

That's right, attack the me... (Below threshold)

That's right, attack the messenger, not the message. You still haven't come up with anything to repudiate the basic premise, but you keep attacking personally. Shows you've got NOTHING but the Chickenhawk meme. Keep attempting to feebly attack me personally, it just shows how pathetic and stupid you are.

Oh, and nevermind I have relatives there who are glad to be there, are probably are worried about their own life simply because they're in a war, but won't ever admit it, who don't want to leave until the job is done and can't stand all of you freaking cowards for undermining what they're accomplishing over there. Nevermind them.

Brian as for you, made up shit? I recall admitting I was wrong when I fact checked on a detail, important detail nonetheless, because I'm adult enough to do so. That's what I get for multitasking, but really, is this argument all that important when we have people on the ground who you and people like you are screwing over? And isn't it interesting 1441 lists 10 prior resolutions that weren't heeded? So, yeah, I guess they agreed with us 10 out of 11 times that something should be done. Made up, huh? Don't you think ONE resolution should have been enough? Certainly not 11, and why in the hell would we need a 12th to get Iraq to comply with the world's wishes? You can't answer, I know.

Once again, basic premise still intact. Our country decided to actually *do* something while the UN attempted to cover its ass and sit idly by doing nothing.

Sure would be pretty nice if a governing body that's supposed to be as important as the UN wouldn't be so inept and morally bankrupt, and one that the world would actually respect and listen to. Nice pie in the sky idea, but it's failing miserably.

The UN is a worthless, impotent organization that marginalizes itself more and more every year.

Matthew :"Other than Ran... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Matthew :"Other than Rangel, I'd be curious to see you source your claims that "many" Democrats are advocating increasing troop levels. .. Who of the Democrats is advocating same?"

Oh, nobody important, Matthew. Just the incoming chair of the intel committee.

Just look a few posts down:


"Nancy Pelosi's Choice for Intel Chair Wants More Troops in Iraq
You won't believe it, but Nancy Pelosi's choice for intel committee chairman thinks we need to up the amount of troops in Iraq to make sure we kill all the terrorists:

"We're not going to have stability in Iraq until we eliminate those militias, those private armies," Reyes said. "We have to consider the need for additional troops to be in Iraq, to take out the militias and stabilize Iraq ... We certainly can't leave Iraq and run the risk that it becomes [like] Afghanistan" was before the 2001 invasion by the United States. "

Personally, I think the 'ch... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Personally, I think the 'chickenhawk' meme is a childish junior-high school debating gimmmick, but others here think it is a legitimate point.

So Matthew, you and joe and maggie et al will be first in line at the recruiter's office, right?

Les:Great point. ... (Below threshold)

Les:

Great point. It's quite possible the Democrat leadership isn't dumb enough put themselves in a weak diplomatic position. Maybe they learned something from the North Korean fiasco after all.

What the cut and run crowd just doesn't understand, is if they get their wish, we lose all credibility with the rest of the world and we have zero advantage at the "diplomacy table." Sure would be nice to have a big stick when dealing with the Iranians, Syrians, and North Koreans, wouldn't it? We cut and run in Iraq, and all they'll do is laugh in the face of the free world. The UN is worthless and they know it, and if we cut and run, they would simply tell us our country doesn't have the stomach to enforce the free world's demands. Which of course, would be true.

Wingnuts wouldn't understand the benefit of having the advantage at the bargaining table, however, and they think the US is the "evil side" anyway. They're a lost cause.

Brian,Tom B., like... (Below threshold)
Robert:

Brian,

Tom B., like most who supported (cheerleaded) this disastrous war wnts to lay the failure on someone else's doorstep.
Republican accountability. Hilarious!
Republicans know the only people who have to be accountable for their actions are the poor.

You also get guys like Rob in LA, who just knows the terrorists are taking their cues from the anti-war Left.
Is this because he's a terrorist?

Meanwhile those who warned the war would be a disaster are ridiculed, marginalized, or ignored.

I keep eating the salmonella laden sandwiches which make me so sick I need more sustenance.
Luckily I have some more salmonella laden sandwiches here.

The level of vitriol on thi... (Below threshold)
announcerguy:

The level of vitriol on this thread is amazing. Most of it seems to be coming from those folks on the defensive, i.e. the right-wing types. But really, you have good reason to be defensive.

I'd like to pose a serious question to my friends on the hard right...the same one I posed to an extremely conservative associate before this war began, and that is:

Even if we overthrow Saddam, install a temporary government, and then allow Iraqi's to hold free and democratic elections, what makes you think they would vote to align themselves with the U.S.?

He couldn't answer that question, and when it comes down to it, that's the question the administration and its supporters have never been able to answer.

I would love to hear a well-reasoned, thoughtful answer to this question, especially from anyone...anyone...with an intimate knowledge of the Middle East and its history.

Please, give me a reason to hope that someone on the right now has a credible answer.

Robert:Where I com... (Below threshold)

Robert:

Where I come from, the first way to be accountable when taking on any endeavor is to finish the job completely, in spite of all the obstacles.

announcerguy:

You received no answer to your question because it doesn't matter whether Iraq would vote to align themselves with the US or not. That really wasn't the point of this entire endeavor. The fact is, I would rather deal with a democracy over a dictatorship, one dedicated to the demise of the free world (aren't they all?), any day of the week.

We've saved the Europeans asses twice in the last century, and there are a few countries, France for example, that don't align themselves with the US either, but somehow we find a way to manage, don't we?

All I hear is a lot of complaining coming from our friends on the left, and absolutely *zero* viable alternative *solutions*. NOBODY wanted this solution, but it was the best one available. This was *10 years* in the making. It's not like nobody saw this coming, as if it was a total shock. Sadaam made his bed and now he has to lie in it.

So none of you toads are ev... (Below threshold)
pottietrain:

So none of you toads are every going to hold Bush responsible for the deaths of our soldiers. Yawn. It's not the Iraq Study Group or the American people who sent them to their deaths. It's that stupid-as-a-stump warthog in the White House. Boo-hoo, truth hurts.

Bush still has 2 years left... (Below threshold)
John Ryan:

Bush still has 2 years left but NO ONE has any confidence in him.
At least today he admitted that the situation in Iraq is BAD.

Tom.You're joking,... (Below threshold)
announcerguy:

Tom.

You're joking, right?

"It doesn't matter" if a new Iraqi regime is hostile to U.S. interests? France and other european states have long histories and are now all western democracies...outside of policy disagreements, they have all been American allies since WW2.

Iraq was carved out of the Ottoman empire in the 1920's; its' various tribes have warred against each other on numerous occasions over hundreds of years.

Today, some align with extremist Sunni's to the West, a small percentage align with authoritarian Baathists in Syria; most would ally with radical Shiites to the East...none of those groups are friendly to U.S. or Israeli interests. A Shiite theocracy aligned with Iran is the most likely outcome of a democratic Iraq. This doesn't matter??

You don't hear many viable solutions from "the left" because there AREN'T ANY good solutions, only bad and less bad at this point.

"Nobody wanted this solution?" This was an elective war, Tom. Somebody DID want it, and the tragic results are directly related to the incompetence and hubris of this administration. Many of my conservative friends now realize this. Perhaps someday you will, as well.

Actually, you must be the o... (Below threshold)

Actually, you must be the one who's joking. With Sadaam in power, you would have no chance of having the country align with the US. At least by helping the country set up their own democracy, you would at least have a chance of having the country align themselves with the US.

Having Sadaam in power was clearly not going to work. A democratic government was, is, always shall be, better than leaving him in power. If you can't see that, that's an example of your head being buried firmly into the sand. As I said, 10 years in the making. He had his chance, and there was no better solution.

And I certainly don't need a history lesson from you. I'm well aware of the history, and you don't need to know the history of the region or be an expert of the Middle East to answer your clueless, irrelevant, "I'm trying to be the smartest person in the room" question.

Have a great evening, I see that the rest of the Rhoades Scholars have arrived.

announcerguy:Don't... (Below threshold)

announcerguy:

Don't bother wasting time to reply. This point is moot, Sadaam is already out of power and will be hung...sometime.

We're not going to agree on this point or many others for that matter.

Let's just agree to disagree. Go have a beer, glass of wine, spend some time relaxing with your family, blog...whatever it is that you do to have fun. That's what I'm going to do.

WARNING!!! Be careful of wh... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

WARNING!!! Be careful of what you say to "matthew". He works out 5-7 days a week!!!! His mouth must be muscle bound as it "works" out 24/7. (wonder if his "partner" works out with him?)

My original question was ne... (Below threshold)
announcerguy:

My original question was neither clueless nor irrelevant to this discussion, Tom.

Establishing a free, democratic Iraq was a stated goal of your president, after the
original rationale - WMD - drifted into the ether. If the results of that would be potentially catastrophic for America, he should have weighed the question more carefully.

Knowing the history of the region is important, even if you don't want to acknowledge it.

If Bush had been more aware of the British experience with Iraq in the 1920's, he may have considered a less traumatic way to help rid the world of Saddam. But he didn't learn history's lessons...now we're all repeating them. You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar, or even the smartest person in the room, to understand that.

But you're right - it's pointless to discuss these issues with people who are unwilling or unable to acknowledge error of any kind.

We'll agree to disagree...enjoy your evening.

What the cut and run cro... (Below threshold)
Brian:

What the cut and run crowd

Just to be clear, that now includes the outgoing DoS, the incoming Dos, and a bipartisan investigative panel.

just doesn't understand, is if they get their wish, we lose all credibility with the rest of the world

Do you really think the current situation is helping us maintain credibility with the rest of the world? He's a clue... we just lost Poland.

Where I come from, the f... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Where I come from, the first way to be accountable when taking on any endeavor is to finish the job completely, in spite of all the obstacles.

Yep. Start building a cement fence, then when you discover that you're building on quicksand, you should just keep right on building that fence. And design that addition for your house, then when you discover it's more expensive than you thought, you should just dip right into the kids' college fund and stick with the original design. And sue your neighbor for damaging your tree, then when you discover you misread the survey report and it's really the neighbor's tree, you should just keep right on pressing the lawsuit.

Republicans. Because any other solution is cutting and running.

Tom Blogical makes an incre... (Below threshold)
jbunn:

Tom Blogical makes an incredibly stupid point...

"You received no answer to your question because it doesn't matter whether Iraq would vote to align themselves with the US or not."

OK, so tell us what happened to the Palestenians this year... For that matter, how's our relationship with Hugo Chavez, by the way?

Damn, dude... Even if I subscribed to your viewpoint, I'd have a hard time defending that...

That's got to be the dumbest thing I've heard all day.




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