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AP Strikes Back at Bloggers, Defends 'Burning Six' Stories

The AP released a really quite pathetic statement defending themselves in the 'Burning Six' story. Pathetic. Penned by one Kathleen Carroll, executive editor and senior vice president of AP, it reads more like a high school kid wrote it.

I'm tempted to go line by line, but the reply is so poor, it isn't worth the time. Still, some of it is too insanely stupid to go unanswered:

In recent days, a handful of people have stridently criticized The Associated Press' coverage of a terrible attack on Iraqi citizens last month in Baghdad. Some of those critics question whether the incident happened at all and declare that they don't believe our reporting.

Now stop right there. Did a member of the media in the post Rathergate, post Katrina, post Jayson Blair, post Fauxtography era just get pissy because some of us poor unwashed masses didn't believe them unquestioningly?

The nerve of us.

Indeed, a small number of them have whipped themselves into an indignant lather over the AP's reporting.

We ditched the Pajamas and now we're blogging from the bathtub. Don't you just love laptops and Wifi?

Their assertions that the AP has been duped or worse are unfounded and just plain wrong.

And for proof I offer.....

No organization has done more to try to shed light on what happened Nov. 24 in the Hurriyah neighborhood of Baghdad than The Associated Press.

We're wonderful.

We have sent journalists to the neighborhood three different times to talk with people there about what happened. And those residents have repeatedly told us, in some detail, that Shiite militiamen dragged six Sunni worshippers from a mosque, drenched them with kerosene and burned them alive.

No one else has said they have actually gone to the neighborhood. Particularly not the individuals who have criticized our journalism with such barbed certitude.

We're wonderful and you're not.

...Some of AP's critics question the existence of police Capt. Jamil Hussein, who was one (but not the only) source to tell us about the burning.

These critics cite a U.S. military officer and an Iraqi official who first said Hussein is not an authorized spokesman and later said he is not on their list of Interior Ministry employees. It's worth noting that such lists are relatively recent creations of the fledgling Iraqi government.

And here is where Mrs. Kathleen Carroll loses it....

By contrast, Hussein is well known to AP. We first met him, in uniform, in a police station, some two years ago. We have talked with him a number of times since then and he has been a reliable source of accurate information on a variety of events in Baghdad.

No one - not a single person - raised questions about Hussein's accuracy or his very existence in all that time. Those questions were raised only after he was quoted by name describing a terrible attack in a neighborhood that U.S. and Iraqi forces have struggled to make safe.

Can you believe that is what passes for intellectual thought at the AP?

Nobody questioned his existence before, so he must exist. WOW that's just dumb.

But she says even dumber things....

That neighborhood, Hurriyah, is a particularly violent section of Baghdad. ... Here's how AP veteran Patrick Quinn described life in Hurriyah on Oct. 11 this year:

"By early October, Shiite militiamen were roaming the streets of Hurriyah, kidnapping, killing and intimidating Sunnis. Handbills circulating this fall warned that 10 Sunnis would die for every Shiite killed.'' ... [stuff snipped about Iraq being violent -ed]

No one from the Iraqi Interior Ministry or the U.S. military complained about those descriptions. In fact, soldiers of the U.S. Army's 1st Battalion, 17th Infantry, 172nd Stryker Brigade were dispatched to Hurriyah late this summer to try to bring it under control.

'You see, the U.S. Army sent in Strykers. That proves our reporting is correct.'

I know what she's trying to do... It's called the "fake but true" defense.

'Our source may not exist, but Iraq is a violent place, so something like this happened even if it didn't really happen.' -- That didn't work for Dan Rather either.

What other proof does Mrs. Carroll offer?

The Iraqi journalists who work for the AP are smart, dedicated and incredibly courageous to go into the streets every day, talking to their countrymen and trying to capture a portrait of their home in a historic and tumultuous period. [and they would never have an agenda -ed]

The work is dangerous: two people who work for AP have been killed since this war began in 2003. Many others have been hurt, some badly.

Several of AP's Iraqi journalists were victimized by Saddam Hussein's regime and bear scars of his torture or the loss of relatives killed by his goons. Those journalists have no interest in furthering the chaos that makes daily life in Iraq so perilous. They want what any of us want: To be able to live and work without fear and raise their children in peace and safety.

DING! - When in trouble, mention children. Anyone who doubts the AP's story must hate children! Sigh.... You would think a trained journalist could do better.

Questioning their integrity and work ethic is simply offensive.

Too bad. If they don't want to have their reporting questioned, I suggest they get a new line of work. And yes Mrs. Carroll, we're even mean enough to question the veracity of people who have children.

We bloggers can be real bastards that way.

Journalist should welcome people reviewing their work. -- If they are doing their job.

Earlier in her missive, Mrs. Carroll lauds the AP for being "transparent" on this story but now gets "offended" if anyone questions their work. You would think she could be consistent for more than a few paragraphs.

It's awfully easy to take pot shots from the safety of a computer keyboard thousands of miles from the chaos of Baghdad.

Mind you, we're not there either... We just hire local stringers to get the story. Those poor bastards live there anyway. We stay in the green zone.

The Iraq war is one of hundreds of conflicts that AP journalists have covered in the past 160 years. Our only goal is to provide fair, impartial coverage of important human events as they unfold. We check our facts and check again.

That is what we have done in the case of the Hurriyah attack. And that is why we stand by our story.

Bluster, bluster and more bluster.

Mrs. Carroll offers nothing more than bluster, indignation and middle-school level logic. (and that last part probably insults middle-schoolers)

It really is simple. If Capt. Jamil Hussein exists, Mrs. Carroll should bring him forward. Let her make a fool of her critics. Let her put egg on the face of the blogosphere and Centcom.

Because so far, this reply only makes me think the AP is hiding something. The blogosphere may be wrong and the media may have the story correct.

But which side would you put your money on?


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Comments (45)

Let me guess the next AP st... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

Let me guess the next AP story,

"Jamil Hussein, killed attempting to review the scene of another Iraqi Tragedy, Body Burned beyond recognician and DNA testing".

I don't know about the vera... (Below threshold)
IllTemperedCur:

I don't know about the veracity of Carroll's statements, but I definitely resent her pulling my old Army unit into her argument.


I love how Ms. Carroll atte... (Below threshold)
Wanderlust:

I love how Ms. Carroll attempts to hop a ride on the whole stupid "chickenhawk" meme, with her "potshots from the safety of a computer keyboard" BS comment.

Given that officially there are only 9 or so reporters currently embedded with US troops, and a couple of those are bloggers, AP isn't likely to be there. So where are they?

Oh, that's right. They are sitting in the safety of their hotel rooms and balconies in the Green Zone, accepting reports of happenings "in the field" from Iraqi and other local stringers, while their safety is secured by thousands of US soldiers.

I can understand that, though. If I were in the military and I had to provide security for an embedded wire service reporter, I'd make sure they were wearing something that would allow me to see them easily.

Perhaps, say, a fluorescent orange or light green colored flak jacket.

That works.

/spit

FREE JAMIL HUSSEIN!!!

:)

I would believe a few on bl... (Below threshold)

I would believe a few on blogosphere before I would ever believe the AP. It is getting so bad that I have to double check the AP whenever I cover a story and I find out it originated from them. For crying out loud. This is getting pathetic.

She did say she was using him for 2 years, correct? She did infer that his name was just recently revealed? I wonder how many of those "from a police chief" or "an Iraq official" stories came from him? Two years of nothing but garbage...shame on them and their agenda.

They have gotten our men and women murdered. What is the penalty for that versus the insult she feels by our questions?

Check out Flopping Aces. He has a pretty concise timeline.

If Ms. Carroll thinks so mu... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

If Ms. Carroll thinks so much of her Iraqi employees, why the slanted coverage and anti-Iraq war effort bias in AP reporting.

Where the Hell is the police officer? Why has he not been produced.

And, why would this particular officer know anything about the incident?

God, these are simple questions that should have been answered by now.

Wait just a second...This p... (Below threshold)
John F Not Kerry:

Wait just a second...This post has been up for 5 hours and no trolls have commented? I think there must be foul play afoot!

"Oh, that's right. They are... (Below threshold)
jp2:

"Oh, that's right. They are sitting in the safety of their hotel rooms and balconies in the Green Zone, accepting reports of happenings "in the field" from Iraqi and other local stringers, while their safety is secured by thousands of US soldiers."

Would you say that to the two dead AP reporters? How about the 4 dead from Reuters?

As a former resident of the... (Below threshold)
observer 5:

As a former resident of the Green Zone, I can tell you that reporters do not live there. I heard there was a Newsweek bureau inside, but I never saw it and all of the other news organizations are in hotels or leased premises outside the Green Zone, mostly in Karada or Jadriya. These premises are fortified with blast "T" walls and have private security.

In fact, the US military tries to keep reporters out of the Green Zone as much as possible.

Having had dealings with reporters over there, I must say they are brave - they often travel "low profile," doing a few things to disguise or hide their identity which I won't discuss. I've met and escorted into the Green Zone a few who traveled in that way.

So part of your premise is bullshit.

As for the other stuff, whether the burnings happened or not, even if the AP well victim to the lies and bullshit that Iraqis often try to pass off, it doesn't change the fact that hundreds are being killed in Baghdad alone every day.

As for the other stuff, ... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

As for the other stuff, whether the burnings happened or not, even if the AP well victim to the lies and bullshit that Iraqis often try to pass off, it doesn't change the fact that hundreds are being killed in Baghdad alone every day.

Fake but true, eh? nice.

So, can the AP stand a litt... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

So, can the AP stand a little criticism or not?

Shouldn't a professional news service be more than happy to back up it's reporting with proof?

Why is it taking so long to get the whole story?

I don't care what your ideology is; a news service that produces more questions than answers is a sign of a troubled new service.

(hint: at this point, now is the time for the usual honest Lefty posters here to agree with me. I guess we'll see.)

Go get 'em, I mean 'er, Pau... (Below threshold)
epador:

Go get 'em, I mean 'er, Paul.

From the safety of you bathtub on WiFi.

Mean while Lee is humming, "I'm forever blowing bubbles..." but not in a homoerotic way...

Paul:I have this s... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

Paul:

I have this sense that you're trying to channel Calvin Coolidge. Anything to that?

...but in all seriousness, ... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

...but in all seriousness, this is good work. Cash the checks.

Considering every level of ... (Below threshold)
marc:

Considering every level of the current Iraqi Gov has been infiltrated by insurgents of various tribes, including the security forces and military, what gives her confidence at least one, if not more than one, or her AP stringers aren't of the same mindset?

Answer: Nothing, but blind arrogance born of being an overly paid AP "executive" with a copy-boy mentality.

Oh... and one other thing. She's trying to save her phony-baloney job.

> Nobody questioned his ... (Below threshold)
bob x:

> Nobody questioned his existence before, so he must exist. WOW that's just dumb.

Excellent post. What's frightening is how this junk comes from the guys running AP - and how nearly all news outlets freely republish AP material. I personally think that Jamil Hussein is a made-up name of a real person - made up to keep him anonymous. That's not as bad as totally making up the whole story, but it still falls into 'fake, but accurate'.

AP really needs to resolve the discrepancy of the Iraq and US govt denying he works for them, using facts other than Jamil exists because I post blog comments in my underwear.

The Associated Press... (Below threshold)

The Associated Press is basically suffering what happens to all large corporations with a virtual monopoly, it is becoming sloppy, incompetant, and unaccountable. The New York Post link above puts Robert Bateman, an historian and reporter, giving one man's story of how the AP covered up evidence that its Pulitzer-Prize nominated story about an incident in the Korean War was completely falsified by a man later convicted for getting PTSD treatment for combat that he did not endure.

Not only that, but this spurious news organization tried to wreck Bateman's career by attempting to stop his academic research and then the publishing of his book. More lately, this fraudulent excuse for journalism had an article out yesterday that neglected to give the state country or any relevant details about the woman who had three dead fetuses in her refrigerator! Whatever happened to who, what, when, where, etc.?

More serious, the Iraqi government and the U.S. Army have long warned the AP about

its use of "spokesmen" who don't exist. Indeed this time it appears that there is no such officer in the Iraqi police force in Baghdad. More, they could find no evidence of such an attack (though they did see that one mosque had been hit with some gasoline and had some smoke and scorching damage in the entryway).

Did the AP retract or reinvestigate? Nah. Instead, in a follow-up story a few days later, it simply noted the old (2005) news about efforts to plant Coalition press releases in the Iraqi media, accused the Iraqis of censorship and claimed that it had found three more (anonymous, naturally) witnesses. In effect, AP said that, no matter what the Iraqi police headquarters said, Hussein is one of its spokesmen after all.
Bizarrely, it seems that not even Iraqi Sunni politicians believe the AP story; even the radical Association of Muslim Scholars hasn't embraced the account. But we here are supposed to anyway. After all, AP doesn't make mistakes.
The AP has a number of executives, including Kathleen Carroll, who are simply giving disinformation and false sourcing in their stories. For that, the CSJ, whose students nowadays cheat on take-home ethics exams to practice for their Pulitzer scams, are predictably taking notes on just how to Mau-mau the flak-catchers, Kathleen Carroll style

I call bullshit on Observer... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

I call bullshit on Observer 5 (for his posts on other threads, as well as this one).

How many journalists get out of the Green Zone and where are all the stories from those trips? There are so few, that it defeats the assertion O 5 makes.

I doubt you've ever been in Iraq, but if you have, you didn't seem to notice the lacking news coverage, it appears.

Excuse me, can I offer a wo... (Below threshold)
Ed:

Excuse me, can I offer a word of caution. The entire premise that there is a problem with this story is based on the initial statement of a PR guy from the MOI, who hasn't offered any additional evidence that the story is bogus since.

AP is staking their reputation on their employees are you willing to stake your reputation on the MOI spokesman?

That's not true, Ed.<... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

That's not true, Ed.

The lack of corroborating evidence, the witnesses who recanted about the story, and the other AP stories with similar problems, etc. The MOI piece of it is compelling, but not the end of it.

Ummmmm Ed???Have the... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

Ummmmm Ed???
Have they produced Capt. Jamil Hussein?
Do you think that perhaps word from the Iraqi police that he doesn't exist may be somehow related to the fact that they haven't?
Care to extend the shreds of your credibility a little further on the chopping block, its awfully hard to hit small things, even with a big fact hammer.
As for that vacuous twit Kathleen Carroll, she really needs to shut her yap and stop digging.
The first step in realizing you have a credibility problem is admitting you based a story (or stories) on BS.

Its pretty sad when people ... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

Its pretty sad when people want to take the word of a Shadow Man over the Military out of the box.

The AP could have a gigantic story if they produced Jamil. Embarrassing them with attempting a disinformation campaign if Jamil exists. I don't see them passing over this story if they could. Imho, they know Jamil is fake. If not before, they do now.

As O5 has "observed" and no... (Below threshold)
civil behavior:

As O5 has "observed" and not one of you can refute " It doesn't change the FACT (my emphasis) that hundreds of Iraqi's are being killed daily."

It's typical right wing drivel......when they can't shoot down the message it's pure laziness to attack the messenger.

P.S. ELEVEN troops were killed in Baghdad on Wednesday, the highest number in a single day in the last year. Nearly forty (that's 40) Iraqi's were also killed in Baghdad in car bombings and mortar attacks. Of course the rest of Iraq, say the Anbar province or Baqubah and Sadr City are all a tranquil oasis in the desert sands.

P.P.S. Bush's approval ratings have now hit an all time low....30%. The same 30% hangers-on who just like him will never admit the collossal mistake that the invasion of Iraq based on cherry picking intelligence to support the neocons imperialistic ambitions did will continue their obstructionist ways. We cannot expect that 30% to ever admit their arrogance. The road to peace will be paved by scholars and wise men who will begin to assimilate, integrate and understand the cultures of the world. They eventually will wrest control from the war profiteers and life forms will evolve. Generations from now will look back on the warring of developed nations as pure insanity. Warriors will become extinct. And the world will be better off for it.

Bwahahahahahaha....I love i... (Below threshold)
Jo:

Bwahahahahahaha....I love it when the liberal media is caught in their whopping lies.

"The AP could have a gig... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

"The AP could have a gigantic story if they produced Jamil. Embarrassing them with attempting a disinformation campaign if Jamil exists."

Well, sorta. Just producing 'Jamil' does not end this mystery. There are many other questions and fabrications that the AP has to answer for in a lot of these stories, but I suppose it's moot at this point because they can't even produce 'Jamil'. I have a feeling the AP may try to show some person on televison, announce "this is Jamil", and assert that the entire issue has been resolved.

Sorry, AP, that won't be good enough.

The only thing a news service cannot live without, and can't get back once it's gone, is credibility. The AP is in danger of losing it with the public.

As O5 has "observed" and... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

As O5 has "observed" and not one of you can refute " It doesn't change the FACT (my emphasis) that hundreds of Iraqi's are being killed daily."

Aside from the 'fake but true' defense for AP's lies. These stories distort who is doing the killing. If many of the stories of sectarian atrocities are fake, and many of the real ones are retaliation based on the fake stories, it shifts the cause of violence in Iraq back to external forces. Those being primarily Al Queda and Iran.

In other words, Iraq could be stable without their interference. Which means it's not an inevitable 'civil war' quagmire that is being faced.

"The road to peace will be ... (Below threshold)
engineer:

"The road to peace will be paved by scholars and wise men who will begin to assimilate, integrate and understand the cultures of the world. They eventually will wrest control from the war profiteers and life forms will evolve. "

Like Neville Chamberlain?

If only I could 'convince' my wife to wear a burqua. If my neighbors could understand that all infidels must be slaves or die. We simply need to assimilate some of these profound truths into our culture, then the World would be so much more peaceful.

I have spent the last three... (Below threshold)
honestinjun:

I have spent the last three years in Iraq. I have knowledge of massive burnings of people, thousands of Marines killed, but never reported, numerous desertions of US soldier and rock bottom morale. Syria and Iran are desparately trying to maintain peace there, but the US military keeps instigating voilence there.

Oh, there is so much more I could tell you. For the present this will have to suffice.

You do believe me, right?

I wouldn't lie to you.

I have unnamed sources who can verify what I am saying.

Hey, you can believe Iraq i... (Below threshold)
observer 5:

Hey, you can believe Iraq is a paradise if you want, but you'll be disagreeing with lots of people who have been there, including the ISG, the senior USMC intelligence officer there, Tom Ricks ("Fiasco"), Larry Diamond ("Sqandered Victory") and lots of other people.

If you check around the internets in your keyboard kommmando ways, you'll find that journalist bureax are on the other side of the Tigris from the Green Zone, many in the Palestine and Sheraton hotels, and others in the smaller hotels like the Babylon, etc. There are a few house compounds there, like with NGOs that operate out of the Green Zone.

So, all those explosions I would hear were just celebratory fireworks, not car bombs?

> Hey, you can believe Iraq... (Below threshold)
bob x:

> Hey, you can believe Iraq is a paradise if you want,

Okay, Jamil exists because Iraq is not a paradise. Good thinking there.

It would be an interesting story if this Jamil guy just showed up, put on a uniform, and is now running the police department on his own without any connection to government.

bob x,It's quite p... (Below threshold)
observer 5:

bob x,

It's quite possible from what I heard. Iraqis told me that you could buy a spot on the police, including captain's rank, for a bribe.

Jamil may or may not exist, if he doesn't then the AP takes a hit.

Jamil not existing and the AP getting a story wrong is not going to change the fact that horrors are occuring, though - when you hear several close or muffled explosions in Baghdad everyday, when Iraqis tell you of finding dead bodies lying in the street many mornings, when they have close calls or have relatives wounded or killed, the non-existance of Jamil or a bad story by the AP is not going to prove that the general reality of Iraqis in Baghdad and some other places in Iraq is a horror.

And, I'm not one who says we should pull out - we have an obligation to fix the Iraqi state we broke. The USA has not done a good job in Iraq, the horror grew because of our (well, Bush and Rumsfeld's) incompetence.


Meant to write:the... (Below threshold)
observer 5:

Meant to write:

the non-existance of Jamil or a bad story by the AP is not going to prove that the general reality of Iraqis in Baghdad and some other places in Iraq is not a horror.

the non-existance ... (Below threshold)
the non-existance of Jamil or a bad story by the AP is not going to prove that the general reality of Iraqis in Baghdad and some other places in Iraq is not a horror.

It's amazing how soon after questionable media reporting is challenged does the old CBS "fake but accurate" meme get trotted out to defend it.

So Bush and Rumsfeld are re... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

So Bush and Rumsfeld are responsible for the carnage in Baghdad, and some parts of Iraq (not all, but you won't see that in AP or other outlets).

What about the Iranian and Syrian governments? And the Saudi and Egypt -born products of the crazed religious schools?

If you were more focused on the real evil, and not on whacking all things Bush, you'd be focused on the ways to win this thing. But that wouldn't be as satisfying to some, now would it?

Fair weather patriots.

"...we have an obligation t... (Below threshold)
engineer:

"...we have an obligation to fix the Iraqi state we broke."

I keep forgetting, Iraq wasn't broken until we got there. In fact I believe it was a paradise.

So Bush and Rumsfeld are... (Below threshold)
observer 5:

So Bush and Rumsfeld are responsible for the carnage in Baghdad, and some parts of Iraq (not all, but you won't see that in AP or other outlets).

Bush and Rumsfeld are partly responsible, yes, in the same way that a mayor who cuts the police to an inadequate number is responsible for crime in the city.

Bush is the chief executive of my government, which is something that I am supposed to have some small control over through voting and voicing my opinion. Their incompetence is something the American people have to hold them to account for.

What about the Iranian and Syrian governments? And the Saudi and Egypt -born products of the crazed religious schools?

I have no control over them unless the American government provides for, equips and trains adequate forces to deal with them. Which it has not. I remind you that Rumsfeld fought expanding the size of the Army and USMC all though 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005. We needed more troops, and more money spent early on to help the Iraqi people and provide jobs.

If you were more focused on the real evil, and not on whacking all things Bush, you'd be focused on the ways to win this thing. But that wouldn't be as satisfying to some, now would it?

I am focused on the real evil, nothing focuses you like a mortar shell in your proximity or some people you know getting killed by the bad guys. The problem is that Bush and Rumsfeld wanted to run a war on the cheap, with too few troops, too little aid money. This created a huge mess with no clear solution.

It's you that are not focused on the real evil: you think it's the Associated Press, or the "MSM" or Michael Moore or something.

Fair weather patriots.

Funny that you say that, since I'm the one who went to Iraq while you sat on your fat ass: I don't care whether you believe me or not, but there a lot of accounts which second my view. You can start with "Fiasco" by Tom Ricks, go on to "State of Denial" by Bob Woodward, read the ISG report, read the leaked assessments of Marine intelligence officers in Anbar, or check out the reports of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction at www.sigir.mil

I keep forgetting, Iraq ... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

I keep forgetting, Iraq wasn't broken until we got there. In fact I believe it was a paradise.

With kite-flying children, according to Michael Moore.

As O5 has "observed" and not one of you can refute " It doesn't change the FACT (my emphasis) that hundreds of Iraqi's are being killed daily."

It doesn't change the fact that hundreds are killed in the United States as well, that's not the point. The point is the trust of a newsstory that cannot produce evidence of the actual existance of it's prime witness. Moreover, if this story cannot be substantiated, how many MORE stories about Iraq deaths are truthful? This story is an "ends justifies the means" sort of approach.

OB 5 - The point of this po... (Below threshold)
bob x:

OB 5 - The point of this post is that AP makes lame points in defending their claim that Jamil exists. This is an interesting story regardless of how bad the situation is in Iraq, WMD, reconstruction, Michael Moore, Bush's approval rating, friends being bombed, and the 100s of other things you'd like to talk about.

" This created a huge mess ... (Below threshold)
pagar:

" This created a huge mess with no clear solution."
The huge mess was advertised to the entire
world on 22 Apr 1971, the day that John Kerry stood in front of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations and admitted that he had met with the enemies of the United States during the Vietnam War in Paris and had adopted the enemies' positions regarding how America should surrender.
When he walked from that building, a free man;it assured every would be terrorist in the World that there was not going to be any substantial penalty to any American for supporting
any enemy of America.
Since there is no penalty for American leftists
supporting any enemy. We see leftist after leftist
telling our enemies in Iraq, just hold on we're
get the Democrats back in power and you'll be safe. When John Kerry was nominated to be the
Democrat candidate in 2004, the terrorists and the Communist Party of America were elated. Since John Kerry was not elected,it looks like the leftists told the terrorists,
just hold on till 2006, but help us
keep the pressure on-keep pushing the death toll
up and we'll keep pressing the surrender theme.
Of course, the terrorists have kept pushing the
death tolls up, with the help of their friends at
AP, Reuthers, NYTs etc. With every leftist post, egging them on, they will continue to push the death tolls up.
The one thing, I believe, that would have put
Vietnam firmly in the win column for America would have been for the America people to say, we are not going to surrender, we are going to win.
We are not going to win in Iraq or Afganistan or anywhere, until the American people decide that
surrender is unacceptable. That Americans supporting the enemies of America is unacceptable.

"State of Denial" by Bob W... (Below threshold)
Jo:

"State of Denial" by Bob Woodward?? LOL.

Harry, we will soon come to... (Below threshold)
epador:

Harry, we will soon come to the time when we will have to decide between what is right, and what is easy.

Looks like AP made the Easy Choice.

How about the Surrender Simians (SS)?

0 5 focused on his drunk Br... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

0 5 focused on his drunk British role model, and his relentlessly negative schtick.

You go your way, but it doesn't appear to have gotten you far--all the clever, arch chat won't make you any less misguided.

I've been to Iraq, and just... (Below threshold)
epador:

I've been to Iraq, and just about every Somewheristan, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Croatia. I've held the heads of bleeding soldiers in the back of a C-130 flying out of the mountains to Bagram, and adjusted their painkillers back in the States on their flights back to their home bases. And I can tell you O5 does not represent the majority of our fighting forces opinions or views. Neither do the statements of the cowardly Surrender Simians population now found on both sides of the aisle in the House and Senate. We are allowing the propaganda mill of the AP, Reuters and Al Jazeera to guide us to another murderous and cowardly exit from a foreign country. This time, however, the bastards we are fighting won't let a body of water stop them from following us all the way home.

I don't purport to represen... (Below threshold)
observer 5:

I don't purport to represent anyone but myself, unlike you.

First of all, I'm retired military and was a civilian contractor.

But still, I think most Soldiers and Marines wish they were somewhere else than Iraq.

O5, you say you represent o... (Below threshold)
epador:

O5, you say you represent only yourself, and say based on your personal experience, you can generalize your personal feelings to the masses.

I'm saying, based on my experiences receiving shared feelings and thoughts from a number of Soldiers, Seamen and Airmen [and a few Marines], not to mention a few Coasties, that a majority have the maturity and selflessness to rise above their personal desires to be home, and serve the needs and best interests of their country despite the selfish and self-centered surrender simians who are trying to lose this conflict and shift the blame to the leaders attempting to win it.

Some are like that, yes, an... (Below threshold)
observer 5:

Some are like that, yes, and others are damned pissed off and scared that they are on their second or third tour in 3 or 4 years, and particularly sick of rolling out the gate every day to draw fire and IED detonations.

I haven't polled them lately.

I don't even say the US should withdraw: I'm just Goddamned angry at Bush, Rumsfeld and the idiots who made such a mess of Iraq when there was plenty of good advice they ignored, in 2002, 2003 and 2004. After that, it might have become too broken to fix, at least without a huge price.

So I'm not a Bush zombie. I think he's a world-historical f-up on the order of George III, Custer, etc. Ditto for the "mastermind" Rumsfeld.

"A Stitch in time save nine; Pennywise and pound foolish, etc."




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