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The Holocaust Myth

The President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, had a week to waste, so he sponsored a conference on the Holocaust, which is to say that he set up a week of noise to denounce historical fact in favor of his fantasy. It would be pointless here to rebut the lies and hypocrisy of that group, but it is necessary to consider the motive and goals of the new Fascism.

When I gave this essay the title of 'The Holocaust Myth', I was not referring to the well-documented genocide of Jews and other "undesirables" by the Nazis. Between General Eisenhower's specific orders to film the camps and document the crimes he feared would be diminished in time or conveniently forgotten as Germany rebuilt, and the Nazi's own ghastly obsession with documenting the efficiency of their "Final Solution", there is no doubt - whatsoever - that the Nazis deliberately and systematically abused and dehumanized the Jews through laws and the camps, in the diabolical hope that they might exterminate a race of people. The focus I want to direct is on the other myths of the Holocaust. Myths like the notion that Israel's existence is the cause of unrest in the Middle East, which requires the deaths of as many Jews as possible to resolve the matter. Myths like the notion that Iran deserves nuclear weapons, and is morally equal to the United States in its accountability and responsibility for such weapons. Myths like the notion that the United States has no business "interfering" in Muslim nations, even when specifically asked by the governments there, or to remove a tyrant who had committed clear acts of war against America. Myths like the notion that the Jihadists can produce anything, anywhere, but a bloodbath.

The Holocaust Conference in Iran therefore needs to be seen for what it is, a tactical propaganda move in a continuing war against Israel and the West. It demonstrates why it is so wrong for the Mainstream Media to declare themselves neutral, granting a moral equivalency between America and forces which murder Americans, and why it is wrong to attack the President in time of war, in hopes of political gains at home. In 2003, after the successful invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein, the Middle East understood that the United States had taken control of the initiative, and was dictating events, just as President Bush promised, at the times and manner chosen by the United States. Because of this, Moammar Qaddafi in Libya voluntarily surrendered his WMD programs, Syria backed down from the border of Iraq, correctly believing its own invasion was imminent, and even the mullahs in Iran toned down their rhetoric, hoping to not anger the United States into a war which seemed all too likely to destroy the Jihadists' base. But because the Democrats in Congress refused to support the war for reasons which came completely from expediency issues, and because the media like CNN and CBS and the New York Times became actively opposed to the American government, the Jihadists found hope for their survival through the cowardice and cavil of vain and shallow men.

A clear example of such an abandonment of American ideals is the reaction to the ascension of Ahmadinejad to the Presidency of Iran. A member of the group which seized the U.S. Embassy in Teheran during the Carter Administration, it is very likely that as a young thug, Ahmadinejad held a gun to the head of captive American citizens, an act which all too well symbolizes the present desires and intentions of the Ahmadinejad regime today. Not one Democrat or Liberal has condemned Ahmadinejad, treating as reasonable his recent ultimatum to President Bush; indeed, the consensus from the Left has been to suggest that President Bush should meet with Ahmadinejad, negotiate on his terms, none of which would be palatable to a Western secular democratic republic. No leading Democrat has condemned the practice of Honor Killings, nor of the execution of a teenage girl in Iran this year, nor the training and funding of terrorists exported to Iraq to attack U.S. and Coalition forces, as well as Iraqi citizens. Because of this attitude, to allow Iran to say and do exactly as it pleases, the Left has betrayed the military forces in Iraq and undermined the valid doctrines established by the Bush Administration. And that has emboldened Iran's vicious mullahs to the point where they can openly begin a campaign against Israel. We are not to the point of military action, of course, but that is waiting on two key conditions the Jihadists expect to see fulfilled in short order; the significant drawdown of American military forces in the region, especially Iraq, and the testing of a battlefield-ready nuclear weapon. The total lack of resistance and outrage to the Holocaust Conference has encouraged the Imams to plan for greater and bloodier goals.

There is abundant precedent for the upcoming campaign to wipe out Israel. The 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 wars all began their planning on the hope for a newer, Muslim-led ethnic cleansing. Because of Iraq, the Jihadists hope to keep the U.S. out. Because of Chechnya, the Jihadists hope to keep the Russians out. Because of commerce, the Jihadists hope to be well-armed with state-of-the-art weapons and C3I capability. Syria will grab Lebanon and Iran will control Iraq, by proxy more than outright invasion, but in a matter of months the region could devolve to utter chaos. Casualties will be high, especially civilians, and all because politics was too tempting for the Left to remember or care about American promises or commitments. And it all began last week, with the myth that Iran only wants peace and stability. A myth which will introduce a new, Muslim, holocaust.


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Comments (68)

Too bad you let your DDS (D... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Too bad you let your DDS (Democrat Derangement Syndrome) get in the way of an otherwise thoughtful post. It's hard to tell who you hate more, DJ, -- the deranged leader of a country out to destroy Israel -- or your fellow Americans who vote differently from you.

I wonder how long it will be before the Wiznut hate-monkeys are calling for the extermination of liberals in this country. You seem to be edging closer and closer with every post, and there doesn't seem to be any reason you dragged Democrats into this tirade, other than your aforementioned DDS. You haven't cited one single Democrat by name or by quote who supports Ahmadinejad's position -- not one.

You haven't cited... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:
You haven't cited one single Democrat by name or by quote who supports Ahmadinejad's position -- not one

Lee, this is what DJ said;

Not one Democrat or Liberal has condemned Ahmadinejad, treating as reasonable his recent ultimatum to President Bush; indeed, the consensus from the Left has been to suggest that President Bush should meet with Ahmadinejad, negotiate on his terms, none of which would be palatable to a Western secular democratic republic

Here is your opportunity to post those quotes of Democrats condemning Ahmadinejad.

"I wonder how long it will ... (Below threshold)
Tony:

"I wonder how long it will be before the Wiznut hate-monkeys are calling for the extermination of liberals in this country."

You'll be waiting forever Lee because your conservative derangement syndrome has wholly consumed you.

Lee, I have been reading Wi... (Below threshold)
Joe:

Lee, I have been reading Wizbang for a few years now and have read your comments on many posts without responding, but this time I have to. You are an idiot. Plain and simple. I hope that is a sentence that you can understand, because you can't seem to understand what is posted on this site. DJ didn't name any specific Democrates in his post. He didn't have to. There isn't one to name. What he did say is that not one has spoken out against the recent actions of Iran, this "conference" that was held in Iran, or spoken out against any actions against civilians that most decent people find appalling. If one Democrate had said something, we could point them out. So, if you are looking for a name, or a quote, go somewhere else. I normally laugh at your comments, but it isn't funny any more. You are an idiot. Goodbye.

Great post D.J. Right on t... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Great post D.J. Right on the money and 100% true.

And as usual the radical Muslim terrorist's #1 supporter and ally, of the regular commenters on this site, was the first to comment with it's typical socialist-regressive smarmy elitist lies. How are things across the pond, Lee? Foggy and rainy as usual- like your mind?

Lee: "I wonder how lon... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Lee: "I wonder how long it will be before the Wiznut hate-monkeys are calling for the extermination of liberals in this country."

Don't worry Lee, we on the right respect life and will not treat your fellow lefties over here the way you lefties treat inconvenient babies.

Lee provides further proof ... (Below threshold)
Darby:

Lee provides further proof that liberal democrats are incapable of coming up with original ideas or concepts.

How different the world would have been if the media, the darling sweetheart of the left, had supported the actions in Iraq. If the reporting had not been spun. If only Saddam had not broken the cease-fire agreement from 1991. If Osama Bin-Laden didn't hate the United States. If there wasn't a hijacking of a religion. Oh, how different the world would be.

Actions and re-actions. But Lee, I don't think that's something you will ever comprehend. You only see it as you're correct, and everyone else is wrong.

Lee calls the people that post here "Wiznut hate-monkeys", I don't know about you, but that sounds awfully hypocritical to me. Because we vote differently than him we're the hate monkeys? I guess Lee must suffer from RDS (Republican Derangement Syndrome). How childish.

Lee I don't often respond to you, but your post was so rife with hypocritical statements, I couldn't let it go.

Do us all a favor. Get some original ideas instead of hijacking others.

As for citing a single democrat by name or by quote who supports Iran. There is an old saying that comes to my mind. "Silent Approval"

What is it going to take for you to come to the realization that Iran does no want peaceful nucUlear technology? That it wants the bomb. It wants to destroy Israel. You think the Caliphate reborn after Israels destruction is going to be content to leave the rest of the western world alone? I don't think so, what about you?

So Lee, sleep well at night. Be secure in the knowledge that there are adults who will protect your slumber from the evil in the world.

It's always about Lee, isn'... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

It's always about Lee, isn't it Lee? Who cares what you think?

A well-considered and well written piece, DJ. Every bit of it rings true.

I went back through DJ's po... (Below threshold)
Lee:

I went back through DJ's post and made a list (copied and pasted below) of the Republican he cites who have denounced Ahmadinejad's actions.





Darby, -- You think we are more secure thanks to the antics of the Republican'ts? The results of the last election strongly suggest you are in the minority on that one, but you go on living in your little fantasy world.

bobdog -- I just state my opinion - same as everyone else - The Wiznut hate monkeys make it about me with their ad hominem attacks. Apparently they can't state an argument that doesn't center on me. Just another sign of their DDS.

Thanks DJ for the great ess... (Below threshold)
GeminiChuck:

Thanks DJ for the great essay - very clear summary of the problem. Here's an idea I'm sure the Lefties would have to support since they love conferences: Hold a week-long conference in the USA to discuss why Iran is denying the holocaust happen and why they want to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth - discuss motives, objectives, and their planned approach for the second Final Solution. Invite the world's leading lib-socialists since they are all so friggin brilliant I'm sure they can provide us the insight & answers because our media and politicians sure cant or wont.

gc

Hey 'pucker puss" (lee lee)... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Hey 'pucker puss" (lee lee) let me name you 3--Sen. Bill Nelson--went to Syria and is already kissing "chinless's" ass trying to undermine what Bush is trying to do, with John "Hanio" sKerry to follow with that fat ass Dodd behind him. This after the State Dept. ask them not to. Is this not treasoness action? You damn right it is. If it was left up to me they would not be allowed to reenter the USA. If the do shoot them on the spot. They are nothing more then traitorus SOBs. Lets hear your far left, asskissing, bootlicking appeasing reason they are going over there behind the administration back.

Here's what the White House... (Below threshold)

Here's what the White House has to say about the Holocaust Conference:

"The United States condemns the conference on the Holocaust convoked by the Iranian regime on Monday in Tehran."

There's more at www.whitehouse.gov. Now, Lee, it's your turn. Please provide a quote from a leading Democrat (one that isn't in Syria right now, kissing the feet of terrorists) that condemns the conference in Iraq.

Yeah, right, like that's going to happen.

Lee,Get a freaking... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Lee,

Get a freaking clue. We are merely responding to your ad hominem attack in the very first comment in this thread you hypocrite.

Now run along and find some more links to pro-terrorist articles in British "news" paper for us.

I went back throu... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:
I went back through DJ's post and made a list (copied and pasted below) of the Republican he cites who have denounced Ahmadinejad's actions

I dropped the words "Democrats condemn Ahmadinejad" in goggle. (Zip, zero, nada)

I did come across this though:

Senate Democrats Soften Iran Resolution

Senator Santorum, a Republican of Pennsylvania, drafted the resolution after a December 14 speech in which Mahmoud Ahmadinejad called the Holocaust a "myth" and suggested Israel be relocated to Europe, Canada, or Alaska. In its original form, the statement condemned the remarks, demanded an apology, and supported efforts by "the people of Iran to exercise self-determination" and hold a national referendum with oversight by international observers.

When Mr. Santorum moved to introduce the resolution last Friday, Senator Wyden, a Democrat of Oregon, registered an unusual objection. According to the Congressional Record, Mr. Wyden told Mr. Santorum on the Senate floor that he was objecting to the resolution because his Democratic colleagues in the Senate had asked him too. Mr. Wyden did not say who asked him to issue the objection

Poor Lee, debunked again. Not only did a Republican denounce Ahmadinejad, one even drafted a resolution condemning his remarks and Democrats would not go along.

"Lets hear your far left... (Below threshold)
Lee:

"Lets hear your far left, asskissing, bootlicking appeasing reason they are going over there behind the administration back."

Because YOUR president, despite being told by the American populace in the 11/ 7 election AND the bipartisan ISG AND prominent Republicans that diplomacy was called for, has chosen instead to bury his head in the sand and not budge. This as his approval ratings continue to drop.

Personally, I don't agree with democrats or republicans making moves like this against the WH's wishes, but anytime there is a vacuum of leadership as there is now on Iraq others will step in to try to fill the void - so I lay the blame at Bush's feet for doing nothing since 11/7 to articulate to the American people a new vision on Iraq. The vote shows America wants a new direction, and Bush hasn't provided it yet - if he doesn't others will attempt to do so.

I think McCain is just as equally wrong in his recent actions as well - and that he is just as guilty of showboat diplomacy as is that supreme asshat John Kerry.

"The Wiznut hate monkeys ma... (Below threshold)
Darby:

"The Wiznut hate monkeys make it about me with their ad hominem(sic) attacks." -Lee

Thank you for proving your hypocrisy again. Much appreciated.

DJ DrummondYour be... (Below threshold)
Ugnohooiam:

DJ Drummond

Your beginning about the holocaust was apropos, but then went you off like a complete jerk with your attempt to link Democrats to whatever moronic point you were attempting to make.

As Lee nails it above, it is a terminal case of DDS.

Another manifestation of your DDS is seen here: "and why it is wrong to attack the President in time of war, in hopes of political gains at home." If an inept and unqualified president has made the colossal blunder of the 21st century with his wanton war of Choice, inflaming the entire Mid-East and critically endangering the security of the U.S. in an attempt to wrongfully and stupidly prosecute the GWOT, there is every reason in a time of war to attack such lunacy. Rather than fighting a war on Terrorism, Bush has created a situation in Iraq and the region guaranteed to foment recruitment of terrorists for the next 50 years. Obeisant slavering on brhalf of an unfit president who has forfeited the security of this nation as you and your Republican brethern insist upon would be tantamount to dereliction of duty by the opposition Democrtic Party.

Drummond, you exhibit signs of Delusional Derangement Syndrome (variant of DDS) as well with this: "after the successful invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein,"

Given the surrent situation in Iraq, there was never a "successful" invasion of Iraq. Yea Bush deposed Saddam at the same time that he wrecked the Mid-East and left Iraq in a bloody shambles. This wrong-headed and unqualified president has "accomplished" no mission, but has ensured that the U.S. will remain Terrorist Priority Target #1 for as far as the eye can see. "Sucessful" my ass...you are deranged Drummond.


Darby attacked with: "Th... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Darby attacked with: "Thank you for proving your hypocrisy again. Much appreciated."

You're very welcome, Darby -- I'm happy to do anything I can to make you a little smarter and better informed. Such as my use of ad hominem, which as you can see from the link was spelled correctly. Here's another clue Darby, -- you used "sic" incorrectly.

I'd provide a link to "hypocrisy" but I really think you should do some of this yourself, pal.

Lee: "despite being tol... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Lee: "despite being told by the American populace in the 11/ 7 election"

Lee, care to explain to us why war supporting Lieberman beat pro-terrorist Lamont? Care to explain why the democrats had to run so many conservative ("blue dog") war supporters to win the hose & senate last November?

It must be nice to be a socialist-regressive like Lee. If they don't like reality, they just create their own. If you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it. Well, at least informationally retared people will believe it.

Being a Floridian, I'd like... (Below threshold)

Being a Floridian, I'd like to personally apologize for Bill Nelson. I'm glad I changed my mind at the last minute and refrained from voting for him last month. Up until now he has kept a relatively low profile attending to matters of the interests of our state (even if they are quite liberal interests). Seems he's tired of missing the limelight and is determined to be as big an asshat as some other Senators. I'm firing off a letter to him this afternoon to voice my displeasure with his actions.

And DJ, that was an excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly and I won't even bother rebutting Lee's silly commentary to punctuate my concurrence. I believe it stands on its own.

So now it is Kerry and Dodd... (Below threshold)
nikkolai:

So now it is Kerry and Dodd over there orally "servicing" these fascist dictators? Don't these idiots ever learn that appeasement does not work? Nuke Tehran!!!!!

Nice site!<a href="h... (Below threshold)
Jane:

Nice site!
My homepage | Please visit

Ugnohooiam: "wanton w... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Ugnohooiam: "wanton war of Choice"

All wars are war of choice.

"inflaming the entire Mid-East"

Proof of this is that we were never attacked before we went into Irag, right? Yeah sure...

"Bush has created a situation in Iraq and the region guaranteed to foment recruitment of terrorists for the next 50 "

A more valid argument could be made that the fawnign support the terrorist received from the MSM and the rest of the democrats has done much, much more to encourage terrorist recruitment.

"there was never a "successful" invasion of Iraq"

So Saddam and his regime are still in power?

Don't ya just love the thought processes of members of the fabricated reality based community?

Once again Lee, in your eff... (Below threshold)
SShiell:

Once again Lee, in your efforts to get your shots in first, you stepped into the deep water and sank like a stone.

"You haven't cited one single Democrat by name or by quote who supports Ahmadinejad's position -- not one."

And as usual, you didn't read the post to begin with but just started shooting off your mouth. As has been stated, "What he did say is that not one has spoken out against the recent actions of Iran, this "conference" that was held in Iran, or spoken out against any actions against civilians that most decent people find appalling."

Now you realize you are in the deep end of the pool and start sinking. Instead of recognizing your plight, you attack: "I went back through DJ's post and made a list (copied and pasted below) of the Republican he cites who have denounced Ahmadinejad's actions."

Once again you get responses showing citations from the White House and a Senate Resolution proposed by Santorum - a resolution objected to by a democrat. And once again you are challenged to respond by showing any democrat who has condemned the Iranian actions from the left.

And your response? Questioning the grammatical error of another commentor. In the past you have impressed me with your arguments. I haven't agreed with them but i was impressed. It is when your "superior" thought is challenged that your revert to typical Leftist behavior of attacking and mocking your opposition that I grow tired of and have responded in kind.

Well, now you have been caught in the deep end of the pool with your pants down and you do not have the balls to fess up and state - I was wrong.

So, how do you respond Lee. Are you going to come wup with your links or not? Or are you going to just disappear from this thread like you always do when you get punked! I think Darby said it best when he wrote in his comment: There is an old saying that comes to my mind. "Silent Approval"

And, once again, Lee manage... (Below threshold)
Lurking Observer:

And, once again, Lee manages to derail an entire line of potentially interesting discussion, b/c folks just forget not to feed the trolls.

The (not really) interesting question is what about this thread is so threatening that Lee feels compelled to not only be the first commenter, but also consistently derailing any attempt at bringing it back on track?

Here's one thought:

For much of the Left, the Middle East is hardly necessary. If we were to reduce our foreign oil dependency (so the theory goes), then we could just tell the Middle East to go take a hike. (Note that this doesn't actually make sense economically, given the costs of production for Middle Eastern oil versus anywhere else, and given the benefits of oil-as-energy compared with most other sources, but that's a separate issue.)

But if we left the Middle Easterners to their own fate (i.e., perpetrating jihad, since other countries would continue to buy their oil and yen, euros, and renminbi would continue to flow into their coffers), then what of Israel, our longstanding ally?

For the Left, at the end of the day, they must call into question the commitment of the US to Israel.

After all, so long as the US perceives Israel as a close ally, and worse, as a moral ally, then the idea of pursuing a wholly defensive strategy (which implicitly suggests ceding much of the Middle East to the fundis) is out of the question.

So, we see two distinct efforts underway.

On the one hand, we see the academic Left raising the specter of the eternal Jew (or is that eternal Zionist). Israel has lobbyists, and that makes them a qualitatively different creature than, say, steel workers, enviros, or any other ethnic group. Take a look at the Mearsheimer-Walt article.

On the other, we also see a fundamental questioning of the legitimacy of the state of Israel to exist.

Is a two-state solution reasonable, or should we be pushing for a single-state solution (Palestinians and Jews living together)?

Is Israel made up of folks who are living in their own homeland, having survived several attempts to strangle it in its crib, or is it an outpost of Euro-colonialism?

Is Israel a partial response to the Holocaust, or did the Holocaust not happen at all, and therefore there's no reason to give those people a state of their own?

Take away the morality behind the creation of Israel, take away the idea that Jews (and, it should be noted, NON-Jews as well) in this country might support Israel for reasons other than being puppets of the hidden, eternal Jew, and you've undermined a goodly portion of the support that the average American gives to staying in the Middle East and opposing appeasement of the likes of Ahmadinejad and Assad.

Methinks that this is the sort of thing that Lee would prefer commenters to not talk about.

Thanks, DJ, for a marvelous... (Below threshold)
mathman:

Thanks, DJ, for a marvelous post.
Next time you post on this issue please remind folks that the orders from Allah to bring all living persons under one vision (that of Mohammed) and one rule (sharia) and one government (caliphate of the 12th Imam) dates back to about 680 AD.
It isn't new; the Imams are playing the long game; they intend to systematically control the world. And they are willing to SACRIFICE THEIR CHILDREN to do this!
Name me another religion where the supreme reward goes to those to kill as many innocent non-combatants as possible!

I don't have time to go loo... (Below threshold)
mantis:

I don't have time to go looking for tons of quotes but this was easy to find, from the NY Sun:

Outside the Iranian Mission to the United Nations in Manhattan yesterday, elected officials, Jewish leaders, and Holocaust survivors rallied against the conference and the regime in Tehran.

"It is important for us, but it is most important for the entire world to stand up," the speaker of the state Assembly, Sheldon Silver (D), said. "Nations around the world must stand up and tell this hatemonger, 'You're not acceptable. Your tone is not acceptable. Your rhetoric is not acceptable. Your denial of the Holocaust is not acceptable.'"

Rep. Anthony Weiner, a Democrat representing parts of Queens and Brooklyn, used the rally to call on the U.N. to adopt a tough stance on Iran and take Mr. Ahmadinejad's threats against Israel and America seriously. "Do we believe what the Iranian leader is saying, or do we believe he's just posturing?" Mr. Weiner asked. "History shows us that if you take the latter position, you're probably wrong."

Saying policymakers and citizens alike have to "respond as if this guy is as crazy and his country is as erratic as it seems to be," Mr. Weiner warned that Iran's provocations represented a test for the U.N. "This is what the United Nations was created for," he said. "It was created to make sure we don't have Ahmadinejads of the world running around unchecked. It was created to make sure people who promise to do evil, hateful things are stopped before they do."

As for the holocaust denier... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

As for the holocaust deniers the great director Billy Wilder summed it up best " then please tell me where my mother is".

As for unrest in the middle east, the central conceit is that of all the nations on earth the only that has to justify it's existence is Israel. Why not France? Or the UK? Or Saudi Arabia and so on.

Perhaps the time has come to change the subject to should Islam be allowed to exist? Why must we allow ourselves to constrained in what are permissible areas of negotiation and discussion? The only power the Jihadi's have is our self restraint. Imagine if we said that Iran must stop it's nuclear weapons program and cease immediately it's terrorist activities or face annihilation? What would there be to negotiate about? It's time the savages be reminded to learn their place.

Thought experiment: If Europe and China were a given a choice, full commercial relations with Iran or the US but not both, a take or leave it proposition and you have 48 hours for your answer, what would the choice be? My money is not on Iran's side. It's time to call the bluff and put the savages in their place.

Lee perhaps you remember the wise old expression " the only good liberal correction progressive correction communist is a dead one".


Thanks, Mantis.Sco... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Thanks, Mantis.

Score:

Democrats quoted against Iran - 1
Republicans quoted against Iran - 0

Get to work hate-monkeys. Time's a wastin', and DJ's postulation is slooowly twisting in the wind.

When Mr. Santorum moved... (Below threshold)
Jo:

When Mr. Santorum moved to introduce the resolution last Friday, Senator Wyden, a Democrat of Oregon, registered an unusual objection. According to the Congressional Record, Mr. Wyden told Mr. Santorum on the Senate floor that he was objecting to the resolution because his Democratic colleagues in the Senate had asked him too. Mr. Wyden did not say who asked him to issue the objection

Interesting.

P BunyanYou... (Below threshold)
Ugnohooiam:

P Bunyan

You posted: ""inflaming the entire Mid-East"

Proof of this is that we were never attacked before we went into Irag, right? Yeah sure...

That's about as brilliant as would have been an FDR decision to attack The Congo after Pearl Harbor.

Further you posted: "there was never a "successful" invasion of Iraq"

So Saddam and his regime are still in power?"

If this is the measure of your "success" in Iraq then logically we should have left Iraq on the occasion of the "Mission Accomplished" aircraft carrier dog & pony show and have saved 2500+ Americans from needless slaughter by dragging out the campaign in Iraq to the current successful?bloody quagmire. And now we should send in thousands more Americans to be slaughtered to save the fool Bush's face?

Again, "All wars are war of choice"

The war-mongerers on the right-wingnut end of the fringe and the Wizfools will always choose war because they glory in jingoism, especially when others do the dying in the name of their cause.

P. Bunyan, some wars are wars in self-defense while wars like Iraq are the wanton choice of fools so incompetent that they could not even be successful shoveling turds behind an elephant parade let alone provide the class of leadership required for the greatest power on Earth.

P. Bunyan, with your foaming lunatic obeisance to jingoism I am amazed that you have not felled a tree on yourself.

I rate this a *5* posting</... (Below threshold)

I rate this a *5* posting

Lee,It's always ex... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Lee,

It's always extremely easy to prove you a liar, but in your post praising Mantis' citing of a single obscure democrat, all one need to do is scroll up to see that

"Democrats quoted against Iran - 1
Republicans quoted against Iran - 0"

is clearly untrue.


Lee,You can't do mat... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Lee,
You can't do math, either.
Mantis gave you 2 dems, not 1.
Previous posters here also gave you examples of the White House (aka Bush) and Sen Santorum denouncing the Shoah conference.
So, without even having to leave this site, you'd get a result of 2-2, not 1-0...

And ungo... are you a pediatrician, or do you just like to play doctor with 5 year olds?

Add Brownback to that:... (Below threshold)

Add Brownback to that:

Brownback

Ugnohooiam,You rea... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Ugnohooiam,

You really need to get some historical perspective before you bother to post here. You must've went to high school in a big city, either that or you haven't even taken a high school level history class, or perhaps you flunked it.

The mission of those particular troops on that particular ship was accomplished. The banner didn't say "war is over" or "everlasting peace in the middle east". To me it seems that you lefties who were so pissed off at the "Mission Accomplished" banner must've wanted the mission to fail.

You may have the opinion that it was wrong to remove Saddam from power with milliary force, (you can argue that the suffering and deaths of 5000 per month under the "Oil for Food" farce was much better), but throwing out the "war of choice" stawman makes you sound pretty foolish. Even a war of "self defense" is a war of choice. We didn't need to fight the Axis Powers in WW2, we could have simply allowed them to conquer the world and lived under their fascist (leftist) regimes. It was a choice as are all wars.

Of course most lefties seem to hate choice in anything other than killing the unborn.

but in your post praisin... (Below threshold)
mantis:

but in your post praising Mantis' citing of a single obscure democrat

The speaker of the New York State Assembly and the representative from New York's 9th district are two Democrats from the city with the highest Jewish population outside of Israel. Dismiss them as "obscure" if you wish (yeah, the U.S. House is pretty obscure, and Weiner is considered a favorite for NYC Mayor in '09; is Giuliani obscure?), but their statements certainly fly in the face of the claim that no Democrats have spoken out against the Holocaust deniers conference or the Iranian president.

As far as Drummond's idiotic implication that the false lack of condemnation by Democrats is a tacit endorsement of the Iranian regime, it's hard to know how to respond.

Because of this attitude, to allow Iran to say and do exactly as it pleases, the Left has betrayed the military forces in Iraq and undermined the valid doctrines established by the Bush Administration. And that has emboldened Iran's vicious mullahs to the point where they can openly begin a campaign against Israel.

Yes, Democrats have allowed Iran to say as it pleases, whereas they should have stopped them from saying such things? How so? Not only that, but without this tacit endorsement from Democrats, Iran's mullahs would be as quiet as sheep, but with it they they are emboldened. They rely not on the attitudes of Iranians, nor their authoritarian power over them, but on the public opinions of politicians here, for their motivation to behave the way they do. DJ, are you naturally this dumb or do you have to work at it? Btw to label something as valid it should have some, you know, validity, of which the Bush doctrines have none.

P. BunyanDe... (Below threshold)
Ugnohooiam:

P. Bunyan

Deride all you might want with what you may think of my historical knowledge and educational level.

You clearly have not moved beyond inarticulate and illiterate English composition.

And as for your superior? historical knowledge;

"we could have simply allowed them to conquer the world and lived under their fascist (leftist) regimes. It was a choice as are all wars." your labeling of fascists as "leftisits" reflects your ignorance of politics and history beyond your ignorance of English composition.

"Of course most lefties seem to hate choice in anything other than killing the unborn."

And Wizfools like you have no qualms about slaughtering and aborting adult socialized American troops with your jingoistic premptive wars of choice and lies. So you'd say, "Have pity on a fetus or blastocist, but full steam ahead with adult slaughter," in your wars of patriotic excess.

Ugno,You lefites k... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Ugno,

You lefites kill more unborn babies in about 2 weeks than all the people who have died in Iraq since the war started over 3 years ago. And your reasons for killing them is so that (1) you can have unlimited, irresposible, careless, unprotected sex with those with whom you do not wish to have children, and (2) so that about 100,000 sexual predators can rape underage girls every year and not be caught or convicted because the evidence was destroyed.

Every person who has died in the Iraq conflict, with the exception of the terrorists (who make up a large percentage of those killed) was a horrible tragedy, but they died for a great a noble cause- freeing millions and removing a proven threat to world security.

I feel we righties have the moral high ground here by orders of magnitude.

I will conceded that calling the axis powers leftists was a bit of a pot shot and not totally accurate, but I do see a lot in common between the modern day left and WW2 axis leaders such as fascism and genocide, two common traits of the modern day democrats.

If one thinks of the politi... (Below threshold)

If one thinks of the political spectrum more as a circle, rather than a straight line with an extreme right and extreme left, then "fascist leftist" makes as much sense as "fascist rightist". Otherwise, it's like calling the world flat.

Consider neutrality at the top of the circle and fascism at the bottom. If you'll simply look up the definition of fascism, you'll realize that a total fascist state can be reached from either direction. Restricting one's self to the "nationlism" aspect of fascism as defining physical national boundaries is myopic. Some people who espouse certain ideologies see their "nation" as all those who share their beliefs, where ever they are. Take the "Nation of Islam" for example. That was no accident of meaning.

Ignorance indeed. Ignorance also stems from adhering to rigid constructs with no room for new thought or explanation.

(I'm sure this will get eve... (Below threshold)
lurker:

(I'm sure this will get everybody scratching their heads)

Who said this?

"For the leader of any country to question whether the Holocaust happened and suggest Israel be moved to Europe is beyond unacceptable. ...If President Ahmadinejad has any doubts about the Holocaust, he should have the guts to visit Auschwitz or talk to Holocaust survivors about the horrors they can never forget."


Give up? John Kerry.

Good for Kerry! Even thoug... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Good for Kerry! Even though he may or may not have been speaking about this particular conference (no way to tell from Lurker's post) it's nice to see him finally get something right. I wonder who wrote that speach for him...

Then again even a broken clock is right twice a day.

"Not one Democrat or Libera... (Below threshold)
cat:

"Not one Democrat or Liberal has condemned Ahmadinejad"

House Resolution 523: condemning Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's threats against Israel
Sponsored by Henry Hyde (R), co-sponsored by 35 Republicans and 34 Democrats.
Passed 383-0
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hr109-523

Senate Resolution 292: calling on the President to condemn the anti-Israel sentiments expressed by the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
Sponsored by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D), co-sponsored by five Republicans and ten Democrats
Passed by unanimous consent
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=sr109-292

For the record, I've never ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

For the record, I've never said there is no fascism on the right side of the political spectrum. It just seems so common in the American left these days. From banning theist expression in public to banning free speech on college campuses if such speech offends anyone who is not a white Christian to judges making up laws and overturning laws because they simply diagree with them, there is a lot of fascism practiced on the left.

P. BunyanYo... (Below threshold)
Ugnohooiam:

P. Bunyan

Your defense of the "unborn," fetuses, blastocists and zygotes as life flies in the face of your readiness, along with the rest of your rightie ilk, to go to war and kill, occasionally meekly apologizing for your "collateral damage," while not even acknowledging it for what it is, promoting the death penalty, upholding the Corporate right to pollute the planet all the while gnashing your teeth in sorrow over abortion.

What I find that has value in life is a developed and socialized human being who has become human through nurturing and who has become someone else's loved one. You, on the other hand, are more concerned with varying aggregate collections of immature cells.

One has to wonder when people like you will attempt to ban menstruation and wet dreams as an appalling and wanton destruction of would-be life.

What I find that has val... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

What I find that has value in life is a developed and socialized human being who has become human through nurturing and who has become someone else's loved one.

So, if one is not socialized to your standards, and properly developed to your standards, not sufficently nurturing by your definition and is not loved, they aren't valued as life and can die.
How many of the above qualifiers must one fail to deserve abortion? 1? 2? or all 4?
And what are the "deadlines" (no way to use that term without sounding droll) to meet these rather arbitrary requirements? How many years are given?
1, 5, 10, 15, 18?
If one must be loved, socialized and developed
by, say, 18, and they fail the test, can they be killed?
And who determines the tests?
Personally, I'd rather leave those choices to a higher power, and give every "clump of cells" a fighting chance.

One has to wonder when people like you will attempt to ban menstruation and wet dreams as an appalling and wanton destruction of would-be life.

Or when people like you will try to abort the undesireables walking amongst us.

ugno=Peter Singer? ... (Below threshold)
Lurking Observer:

ugno=Peter Singer?

"YOUR President"--and yours... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

"YOUR President"--and yours (pucker puss (lee lee)) also for the next TWO years you "ditto" clicker. Every democrap that has gone over there behind the administration's back is grandstanding lowlife piece of scum. Policy is set by the President ONLY.

I believe that "mantis" is already a member of the "club" but "ugh" is now an offical member.

you'll realize that a to... (Below threshold)
Clay:

you'll realize that a total fascist state can be reached from either direction.

Interesting,liberals reading George Orwell's '1984' believe that the novel's despotism derives from far-right ideology, while those on the right are convinced it depicts an ultra-leftist government.

Skwishy, or is it Sqoosh... (Below threshold)
Ugnohooiam:

Skwishy, or is it Sqooshy, Scuzzy perhaps

The process begins at birth and is ongoing. Only fools like you would attempt to define a moment in time or a plateau.

By "socialized" I was referring to the process of humanization and not a social indoctrination. It has as many facets as there are people on this planet. Some knuckle-walkers like you barely make the minimum standard and more appropriately belong in the Jurassic Age where there asinine views would have inflicted far less damage on their fellow man than in today's far more complex world.

as to your assertion that: "Or when people like you will try to abort the undesireables walking amongst us"

Actually I am quite content to leave that up to a higher power, if there is one, and, I imagine that if there is one, his/her/its punishment will befall your parents for not exercising the proper choice in your case.

And there is the love and t... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

And there is the love and tolerance of the left... wishing that ones parents had killed rather than had their baby, because you don't like how they've turned out. And wishing that God punish them. What, are you a Phelps brand Westboro Baptist?

You're projecting again, mu... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

You're projecting again, muirge-eh, Ugno

You know old "ughie" does s... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

You know old "ughie" does sound a little "socky".

This thread sure went down ... (Below threshold)
epador:

This thread sure went down the toilet, overflowed the Septic Tank and is running down the street naked and screaming.

Anecdotal quotes from one side or the other not withstanding, you have to admit there is not one strong clear united voice coming from this country on this matter. And without it, voices like Dhimmi Carter and the puke from Oregon who trashed his party's President will send the message of weakness that emboldens those who would murder us all.

"Interesting,liberals re... (Below threshold)

"Interesting,liberals reading George Orwell's '1984' believe that the novel's despotism derives from far-right ideology, while those on the right are convinced it depicts an ultra-leftist government."

That's what I mean, Clay. Once that point of the circle has been reached, if one has no knowledge of the history leading up to it, one wouldn't know which direction it came from. And it wouldn't matter. Both far-right and far-left ideologies are dangerous to our liberties.

I'm looking through this si... (Below threshold)
Desouki:

I'm looking through this site for the first time and I'm sick of it already. First off, horrible essay with not one reference. Second, any idiot to say this was a successful invasion is well...an idiot. It accomplished 1 of the 2 original goals: a) to remove Saddam and his regime from power (check) and b) to locate WMDs in order to protect the world (uhhhh, failure?). 50% accomplished. If you go to school, you'd know that's an F. Besides, if it's successful, why are we still in there? Is there a third goal I don't know about? Is Bush trying to beat out LBJ as our dumbest war president? If so, he has already so he can stop.

Anyways, I'm really not going to argue anything else but I will pose this one final question to the ignorant people in here:
Why is it that we condemn Iran for holding this conference when we boast free speech? And if we boast free speech so much, then isn't it hypocritical that we don't criticize Austria, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Israel (duh), Switzerland and many other European countries for making it illegal to deny the Holocaust? Why can't people believe what they want? Oh wait...I forgot, they CAN believe whatever they want...as long as we believe in it too. Right?

Sorry we don't appreciate g... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Sorry we don't appreciate genocidal anti-semitism the way you do, Desouki.

Oh really? Then why are we ... (Below threshold)
Desouki:

Oh really? Then why are we constantly calling Muslims "radicals", "extremists", "fascists" and what-not? Why are we bombing the crap out of them when the evidence for 9/11 has all been debunked?

Besides wuzzy, you don't have to appreciate it at all. I don't think that when there are strikes going on, the presidents appreciate it. No. But do they tolerate it? Yes. That's the difference.

Besides, why do you care if someone doesn't believe what you believe? IT'S THEIR BELIEFS! Let them think what they want to think! Or are we gonna have another version of the Red Scare?

Another thing. I just saw t... (Below threshold)
Desouki:

Another thing. I just saw the part about the "unborn". Well, let me tell you something. Until the first 30 days, this is just a bunch of cells. Then, from 30 days and on, it's alive. However, scientist only need it at day 5! That's when it is 100 cells, a blastocist. At that stage is when cells first begin knowing what they will become. Each different cell has its own unique future. One shall become the liver, the other the eyes, another the heart and so on. Scientist can extract just that one cell and grow it in a lab for therapeutic cloning, in case someone needs another liver or lung or whatever.

And final thing: I read the argument that your killing the chance for life, even if it is a "clump of cells". If that's the case, go arrest every man that masturbates and every woman that goes through her menstruation process. Why not? Those have potential for life! Oooooor, double standard?

Odd, I thought Desouki wasn... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Odd, I thought Desouki wasn't going to argue anything else.

So, what bombing are you talking about? If the US was "bombing the crap out of them" then the discredited Lancet numbers would be a tiny sliver of the carnage. Show any evidence that anyone is being bombed on such a scale. Unless you mean by al-Queda and friends. They are setting off bombs any chance they get.

Who is this "we" that are contantly calling Muslims fascists and terrorists? I know alot of people call the terrorists, well, terrorists. And fascists. That the fascist terrorists in Iraq also happen to be Muslim does not make all Muslims fascist terrorists. You have a problem with logic. Make a Venn diagram if you have to.

9/11 debunked. This ought to be intersting. What part of 9/11 has been debunked?

Sperm and eggs are just cells. Sperm plus eggs may result in life. You know, conception. You also have a problem with causation. And quite a bit of anger.
If you read what I wrote, it was poking fun at the notion that life is only life if it is loved, socialized and nutured. That kind of logic opens the door to Mengele style research and Singer-esque post birth abortions. You know, things like killing off the weak, sick or undesireable. But we know what happens when people set about identifing the undesireable.
Which brings us back to why Holocaust deniers need to be refuted. They can say what they want, but the rest of us get to give the opposing arguement. And make their views public. Since the Holocaust was really all about killing undesireables. And oddly enough, people like David Duke and Iran's president share the Nazis' definition of undesireable. JEW.
So, what is your real problem, that someone is bringing to light and rebutting their denial of history and hate of Jews?
You know that freedom of speech goes both ways, right? That it does not mean freedom from consequence?

Do you think the Holocaust happened? That the Nazis killed millions of Jews, Gypsies and others for the crime of being born undesireable?
Or do you have some other version of events that explain the evidence at hand? I am honestly curious to know your posistion.

Did I ever deny the Holocau... (Below threshold)
Desouki:

Did I ever deny the Holocaust? No. I'm pretty sure it happened. Now, on the scale of 6 million Jews alone that were killed (not counting gypsies and more), that's hard to believe. 6 Million missing, that's understable because maybe some survived but were never able to get in contact with their families again because they didn't know how, considering their families most likely moved out of the country and changed their names. THAT makes sense. 6 Million Jews killed (keep in mind that's not counting the gypsies)? In that short amount of time? Impossible. And that has been deemed so by many respectable scientists.

Your argument regarding the "unborn" remains weak. You said that sperm + egg may result in life. Keyword: may. Same thing if the egg and sperm never unite. It is a may. Conception or not, no signs of life appear in it until 30 days.

You say that I have a problem with European countries like Germany and Switzerland improsining people for denying the Holocaust. I see a huge problem with that. Obviously the United States government holds a double standard. These countries deny people of their own free thoughts. Yet, when Iran holds a conference to discuss the Holocaust, BOOM, it's a problem. And a big one too. Why? I'd like to know that

9/11 debunked. Explain to me this. How is it that the black box, made out of the most undestructable material known to man, was destroyed, yet a passport, made out of paper, managed to escape and land at the streets ready for the taking of the CIA and FBI?

Explain. Now, YOUR answer should be interesting.

Sperm + egg may result in c... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Sperm + egg may result in conception. Sperm without egg never will. So no, it is not that same thing.

I've never mentioned Germany or any other country but Iran. Stop reading into things or projecting. I think some of their lawas are assinine, but I've never mentioned them. Only you have.

And here is where you remove any doubt that you have a clue about 9/11:

9/11 debunked. Explain to me this. How is it that the black box, made out of the most undestructable material known to man, was destroyed, yet a passport, made out of paper, managed to escape and land at the streets ready for the taking of the CIA and FBI?

A) CVRs and FDRs are not made out of the most indesctructable material known to man. They are made out of metal and plastic, not diamond. Most are stainless steel with an aluminum or titanium outer shell.
B) They can withstand an acceleration of 3.4K G. Thats a 270 knot speed at impact.
C) They can withstand 1,000 centigrade for 1 hour.
D) They can withstand 5,000 psi for 5 minutes
E) They are orange, not black

Being crashed into, then imolated in and crushed along with, Manhattan's tallest building exceeded the design specification. Of just about everything built by mankind.

The passport: The scrap of passport was found in PA, at Flight 93's crash site. Flight 93's CVR survived that crash, BTW.

I'd like to know where you ... (Below threshold)
Desouki:

I'd like to know where you got this information from because I'm not convinced of it.

Next challenge: Explain how likely it is for 3 buildings of high quality to fall straight down like in a demolition.

Try google, son.You'... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Try google, son.
You'll get results like http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm
or
http://travel.howstuffworks.com/black-box.htm

You can believe them or not. They may be part of the inside job.

You might also be interested in http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

I'll give you this much. Yo... (Below threshold)
Desouki:

I'll give you this much. You're pretty funny.

Anyways, seriously about those first two links, the only one that answered what I was looking for is the second one. This is what I got. It's basically what you said.
* Crash impact - Researchers shoot the CSMU down an air cannon to create an impact of 3,400 Gs (1 G is the force of Earth's gravity, which determines how much something weighs). At 3,400 Gs, the CSMU hits an aluminum, honeycomb target at a force equal to 3,400 times its weight. This impact force is equal to or in excess of what a recorder might experience in an actual crash.
* Pin drop - To test the unit's penetration resistance, researchers drop a 500-pound (227-kg) weight with a 0.25-inch steel pin protruding from the bottom onto the CSMU from a height of 10 feet (3 m). This pin, with 500-pounds behind it, impacts the CSMU cylinder's most vulnerable axis.
* Static crush - For five minutes, researchers apply 5,000 pounds per square-inch (psi) of crush force to each of the unit's six major axis points.
* Fire test - Researchers place the unit into a propane-source fireball, cooking it using three burners. The unit sits inside the fire at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit (1,100 C) for one hour. The FAA requires that all solid-state recorders be able to survive at least one hour at this temperature.
* Deep-sea submersion - The CSMU is placed into a pressurized tank of salt water for 24 hours.
* Salt-water submersion - The CSMU must survive in a salt water tank for 30 days.
* Fluid immersion - Various CSMU components are placed into a variety of aviation fluids, including jet fuel, lubricants and fire-extinguisher chemicals.

During the fire test, the memory interface cable that attaches the memory boards to the circuit board is burned away. After the unit cools down, researchers take it apart and pull the memory module out. They restack the memory boards, install a new memory interface cable and attach the unit to a readout system to verify that all of the preloaded data is accounted for.


Compared to what happened on 9/11, this should've withstood it all.

I work in the nuclear power... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

I work in the nuclear power industry, so I am very familiar with tolerances. I say this so that you understand where I am coming from.
When tests like this are done, it is to see if the device should survive each scenario in turn, not all of them together. And once the threshold of a scenario is exceeded, the subject is EXPECTED to fail in short order. So if I have a device rated to withstand 500 psi for 10 minutes, it ought to survive that. At 501 psi or at 11 minutes, I should be looking in the store room for a spare.
Note that these are survival tolerances, not operation ones. Once the tolerance is exceeded, the device is expected to be damaged and taken out of service. Any device that is subjected to conditions that meet or exceed multiple tolerance at once can be expected to be at least impared if not destroyed.
Example (which we use in training)
Think of running your hand through a candle flame. You can do it with no harm or pain, if you move your hand through in short order. Now hold it above the flame by 5 inches. You can hold it there for a few minutes, no harm. But lower you hand or leave it there too long, and it will burn. And the lower and longer you bring your hand to that flame, the worse the damage will be.

Taking these in turn, highlighting the relevant point.

* Crash impact - At 3,400 Gs, the CSMU hits an aluminum, honeycomb target at a force equal to 3,400 times its weight. This impact force is equal to or in excess of what a recorder might experience in an actual crash.

Correct. The CVR and FDR prob. did survive impact, like Flight 93's equipment did.

* Pin drop - To test the unit's penetration resistance, researchers drop a 500-pound (227-kg) weight with a 0.25-inch steel pin protruding from the bottom onto the CSMU from a height of 10 feet (3 m). This pin, with 500-pounds behind it, impacts the CSMU cylinder's most vulnerable axis.

Unknown. Tons of steel, concrete and other materials were above and below the impact site, and the fall was more than 10 feet. After the initial crash. This criteria may or may not have been met. But I would not rule it out.

* Static crush - For five minutes, researchers apply 5,000 pounds per square-inch (psi) of crush force to each of the unit's six major axis points.

The CVR and FDR would have likely met forces at or above 5,000 psi, and for greater than 5 minutes. Failure is very likely.

* Fire test - Researchers place the unit into a propane-source fireball, cooking it using three burners. The unit sits inside the fire at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit (1,100 C) for one hour. The FAA requires that all solid-state recorders be able to survive at least one hour at this temperature.

I don't know how hot, between flames and pressure, the recorders got. But, I do know the exposure was far beyond an hour. Think of the candle example. Your hand may be rated for 3 minutes at 5 inches, then it burns. Raise the hand to 10 inches. It will burn, but it may take an hour or two of constant exposure.
Solid State: I make a note of this, because it is not the frame/body alone they are testing. It is also the elctronics and memory inside. Electronis and heat don't mix.
I'd say that failure is also very likely here.

So we have 4 definite failure events (impact, pin, pressure and fire). 2 are very likely to have failed on their own, 1 should have survived, and the remaining can't be ruled out.

If I was running the same thought excercise on one of our steam generators, I'd rule it a failure. Or on the control modules, pressure valves or anything else at an APS.

I won't argue the fire test... (Below threshold)
Desouki:

I won't argue the fire test because I myself do not know the temperatures but I do not think that it lasted more than an hour, even half. However, regarding the pin drop and pressure, I wouldn't be so sure that they would not survive. Remember, for the pin drop, it is impacted at the most vulnerable axis. So that's the minimum for the CVR and FDR at the weakest point. We cannot be positive of the actual pressure and where the boxes got hit. Anyways, I won't debate this with you because I'm not into the hardware side of these kind of things.

However, I have some interesting facts for you to look at:

* "No steel building has ever been destroyed by fire." Fire Engineering Magazine.
* "The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at

this time." Federal Emergency Management Agency {FEMA}.

* All of the important evidence from the disaster was destroyed, illegally, and before the investigation

was even concluded, some before it was begun according to Fire Engineering Magazine.

* $600,000 was spent investigating the WTC collapses vs. $40 million on Clinton's sex.
* The South Tower fell after only 1 hour, the North Tower fell 1 hour later. After the initial fireball, neither

burned significantly. The Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia burned fiercely for 19 hours and never collapsed.

* Building 7 at the WTC, 44 floors, steel, and constructed differently from the twin towers, fell at 5:30 but

it was never hit by an airplane and had no apparent (from photos) significant fire!

* Jet fuel burns at too low a temperature to harm steel (black smoke means it was not even at maximum

jet fuel temperature).

* The fires were not long enough (only 1 hour) to harm the steel (Meridian Plaza in Philadelphia burned

for 19 hours without collapse).

* Yet days later, there were "hot spots" in the building that still exceeded the maximum temperature

possible from jet fuel; but just the right temperature if explosives had been used.

* The gusting wind had at times had greater impact than the airliners. Neither tower bent nor did they

creak or groan.

* The buildings collapsed at the maximum speed of gravity - impossible without explosives - each floor

would slow the collapse.

* The concrete clouds shooting out of the upper floors of the buildings are not possible from mere

collapse; they do occur with explosives.

* All the fires and crashes were way off center; two sides of the building and two sides of the main

center support columns were practically untouched. That means that only one half of the building was harmed at most. Yet all three collapses are perfect - straight down. Ask any demolition expert how hard it is to do this with an asymmetrical blast

* "I'm still to this day amazed that he [alleged pilot on Flight 77] could have flown into the Pentagon,"

according to the hijackers pilot instructor. "He could not fly at all." Yet, "The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it's clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed."

* 9/11 Public Hearing, Friday, May 23, 2003: Mr. Mineta: "There was a young man who had come in

[Presidential Emergency Operating Center] and said to the Vice President [Cheney], "The plane [Flight 77] is 50 miles out. [Later] The plane is 30 miles out." [Later] "10 miles out" Cheney knew this plane was coming at Washington and yet no planes were in position to protect Washington after over 1 hour since the WTC was attacked. Even at 400 miles per hour, it takes over 7 minutes to travel 50 miles, more since the plane was at altitude. Cheney knew the plane was coming when it was even farther away since Mr. Mineta had not been in the room when Flight 77 was first reported to Mr. Cheney.

Desouki, you are determined... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Desouki, you are determined to believe what you want to believe, evidence or not.
For fires and heat... satelite photos showed Ground Zero to be hot MONTHS after the towers fell.
Another heat issue. Steel doesn't need to melt to make a structure fail. It only needs to bend. Steel is not ice, in that it goes from solid to liquid in a slow transition.
Fire Enfineering Magazine... as a former EMT (1992-1996), I know first hand that FEM is NOT a periodical devoted to fire and its effects on engineering issues. It is a trade/fan mag devoted to fire-fighters and EMTs. Engineering, as in engine, as in fire engine. Many of the people that read and those who write for know fires, but they are not by and large structural engineers or the like. Since you've provided no issue number, or author, there is no way to verify who, if anyone at FEM made that claim, or if it was even just a letter to the editor.

Now, unlike your "facts" (I use quotes because most of what you provide has no citation or detail), try reading this:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html




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