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Islamist says Britain Should Integrate to Muslim Values

Safraz Manzoor writes in an editorial in the Guardian that Muslims shouldn't integrate into British values, but instead, Britain should integrate into Muslim values. As you can imagine, I disagree completely. I was completely put off by Sarfraz Manzoor's piece for a number of reasons. Take a look:

Think of the words "Muslim community" and what do you see? A succession of veiled women walking silently behind their husbands? Bearded men gesticulating outside mosques? But there is another version of the Muslim community.

That version of the Muslim community alone, which you don't deny by the way, is enough for me to say not a chance, bub.

It is easy to dismiss Muslim parents as old-fashioned and traditional, but when the rest of the country is busy wondering how to respond to a culture of rampant disrespect, it is worth considering whether they could learn from Muslim values. Muslim children are more likely to be brought up in two-parent families rather than the single-parent households that are increasingly common in Britain.

So, Safraz, can I assume then that Muslims blowing up other Muslims in Iraq is a form of respect you condone? How about Iran hanging a young girl for killing a man who tried to rape her. Is that an example of Muslim values of respect that you can sign onto? Yes, more non-Muslim British children may grow up in single parent homes in Britain than British Muslim children, but those same non-Muslim children are not being taught that Jihad, or Holy War, is good and noble and that honor killings are acceptable.

Muslim parents also tend to be less interested in child-centred parenting and more into parent-centred parenting. For example, when I was growing up there was no possibility of answering back to my parents, and this was accompanied by an all-pervasive fear of letting them down. This was a model of parenting that put great faith in deference and, while at the time it felt regressive, it was also what kept my generation in check.

It is in these same environments where children are not allowed to speak their minds to their parents that grown women are not allowed to speak their minds to their husbands. Instead they must obey and walk silently, covered from head to toe in veils, behind them. And again note that in the first paragraph that I quoted, Safraz doesn't deny this fact.

This description of Muslim values sounds about as appealing as having my fingernails ripped out.


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Comments (23)

Disrespectful WOMAN! You sh... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Disrespectful WOMAN! You should be beaten for writing such lies! Get thee behind me!

Europe worships appeasement... (Below threshold)
Paper Tigers:

Europe worships appeasement; they will acquiesce.
We worship Europe; we want to do what they do.

You may worship Europe? But... (Below threshold)
914:

You may worship Europe? But they can all go jump into Lochness for all I care.

Way to drag the this one in... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Way to drag the this one into the gutter, Kim.

For God's sake, calm down and at least make an ATTEMPT to present a rational argument/assessment.

The main argument that Manzoor is attempting to make is that he thinks the moral code of his community has something to offer to British society...this sounds akin to arguments made by other religious folks who value more traditional ideals than so-called modern ones. This very same argument could have come from a Buddhist, a Christian, etc. We've all heard it before, but you just can't get past the idea that he's--GASP--a Muslim.

You'd be lucky to get a D minus in a 10th grade English class for what you wrote here.

If you disagree with the case that the guy is making, then by all means make your points. But simply replying with exaggerated and flagrant responses like this:

So, Safraz, can I assume then that Muslims blowing up other Muslims in Iraq is a form of respect you condone? How about Iran hanging a young girl for killing a man who tried to rape her.

...is weak beyond measure, and off completely topic. What in God's name compelled you to bring up suicide bombers and the actions of the corrupt state of Iran when the writer was arguing for the benefits of a two-parent household?!?

When writing counter-responses, it's usually best to actually address the subjects and ideas that a writer has brought up, as opposed to bringing in unrelated ideas from left field.

And just so you know, it's not like I think that the piece written by Manzoor is a masterpiece; I don't. But your response to it was just over the top, hysterical, off-point, and actually downright comical.

The bottom line IS........t... (Below threshold)
Knightbrigade:

The bottom line IS........the HOST country should NOT have to integrate to ANY (guest/immigrant) values. All immigrants/guests must respect and acclimate to the HOST country.

END of story... ANY cultures ANY countries!!!!!!!

Example: Hispanics coming to USA.....What to do?Americans should learn SPANISH or Hispanics learn ENGLISH......I think WE ALL know that answer!!!! Same goes for Muslims where EVER they go. Learn the values of the host country, or go back where they came from.

Or as the old saying went, ... (Below threshold)
Wethal:

Or as the old saying went, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Manzoor chose to pick and choose certain aspects of Islamic values, and left the unsavory ones out (treatment of women, treatment of nonbelievers, incompatibility with democracy and secularism etc.).

Yet if one asked him if Islam should be accepted as a whole, and not piecemeal, one suspects he'd say it is a whole way of life, encompassing all one's relations with others.

Islamic values? WTF?... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Islamic values? WTF?

Just imagine a turban on BI... (Below threshold)
spurwing plover:

Just imagine a turban on BIG BEN and on the white tower in the TOWER OF LONDON buts to become of the ravens in the tower? Frankly i stick up for my fellow birds save for chickens and the one that are hunted during the hunting season SQUAWK SQUAWK

I don't know. I think a di... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

I don't know. I think a disposable, flexible, or hyprocritical sense of morality is quite compatible with the West. The Left is working hard to bring us to one, why not cut to chase and adopt Islam's?

What exactly makes Manzoor ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

What exactly makes Manzoor an Islamist, Kim?

I find it especially humorous that you call him that in light of this post (among others), in which you similarly lament the consequences of western culture (even if you don't call it that).

The bottom line IS......... (Below threshold)
ryan:

The bottom line IS........the HOST country should NOT have to integrate to ANY (guest/immigrant) values. All immigrants/guests must respect and acclimate to the HOST country.

Hahahaha. Tell that to all the Cherokee, Choctaw, Seminole, Apache, Hopi, Chumash, Kumeyaay, and so on, who were here when those pesky European immigrants rolled onto shore.

And then go read through some American history and tell me that the morals, ideas, and values of immigrants haven't been incorporated into American culture.

Wow. Try listening a little in your history class next time. What would the USA be if not for "immigrant values"?

Wethal:Yet if o... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Wethal:

Yet if one asked him if Islam should be accepted as a whole, and not piecemeal, one suspects he'd say it is a whole way of life, encompassing all one's relations with others.

Way to make a lame hypothetical argument by assuming what Mazoor "would" say. Are you kidding? It makes no sense to come on here and argue against something that the guy didn't even write!

I guess that's an easy way to feel like you're making a good point though. Nice job, pal.

Hmmm.I find it ... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Hmmm.

I find it especially humorous that you call him that in light of this post (among others), in which you similarly lament the consequences of western culture (even if you don't call it that).

Is anyone else picking up Mantis' point? It's a good one, namely the fact that both Kim P. and Mr. Manzoor are decrying, in different ways, aspects of "western" culture.

I still argue that Manzoor sounds like many other traditionalists, whether Jewish or Christian, who lament aspects of modern western culture (violence, sex, drugs, etc.) and call for adherence to traditional values.

But many of you folks can't get past the idea that he's a Muslim.

I'm casting my vote with Ry... (Below threshold)
Half Canadian:

I'm casting my vote with Ryan on this. The predominate english yob is detrimental to society. While aspects of respect and discipline aren't peculiar to islam, they certainly are more predominate there. But this was also the case with presbyterian/catholic/anglican homes at one time.

Europe needs to take a long look these values (self-control, responsibility, parental responsibility for children particularly) and embrace them.

ryan and 1/2 canadian: go e... (Below threshold)
moseby:

ryan and 1/2 canadian: go eff yerselves!!!

Ryan Bin Laden----Ye... (Below threshold)
Knightbrigade:

Ryan Bin Laden----
Yes those pesky European immigrants really integrated their culture with the Indians, by shooting them and taking the land.
You made my point, HOST countries don't or shouldn't VOLUNTERALLY adapt to ALL foreign cultures. ALL guest/foreign cultures should integrate. The Native Americans were killed and dominated, they didn't open their arms and say destroy us.

Mr Knight...Yes... (Below threshold)
ryan:

Mr Knight...

Yes those pesky European immigrants really integrated their culture with the Indians, by shooting them and taking the land.

Well, they did that and they took land by treaties and other legal means, but yes, that's the gist of it.

You made my point, HOST countries don't or shouldn't VOLUNTERALLY adapt to ALL foreign cultures.

Look, foreign ideas and values have always had their effects upon the United States. That's just the way things work. It's been that way from the beginning. Cultural groups tend to have an influence upon other groups around them. It's just the name of the game, and it's not something to freak out about. Change is pretty normal.

ALL guest/foreign cultures should integrate.

Oh, I see. And what should they integrate into? And do you think that ever really happens? What should one do if a foreign culture doesn't "conform"? Should we resort to force like we did with Native Americans? Is THAT what you want?

The Native Americans were killed and dominated, they didn't open their arms and say destroy us.

Man, do you sound paranoid. What in God's name do you see in the article written by Manzoor that suggests he's talking about destroying you or your culture? The guy is just saying that he thinks Islam has some values that are worthwhile.

From your earlier post:

Example: Hispanics coming to USA.....What to do?Americans should learn SPANISH or Hispanics learn ENGLISH......I think WE ALL know that answer!!!!

Hmmm. What IS the answer? Should people in the west be forced to speak Spanish because that region belonged to Mexico FIRST? Or should we all have to speak whatever Native American language was once spoken where we live?

Or, maybe, just maybe, since we live in a free society people can choose to act as they wish. Imagine that!

1/2 Canadian:I'... (Below threshold)
ryan:

1/2 Canadian:

I'm casting my vote with Ryan on this. The predominate english yob is detrimental to society. While aspects of respect and discipline aren't peculiar to islam, they certainly are more predominate there. But this was also the case with presbyterian/catholic/anglican homes at one time.

Thanks for the vote and everything, but that's not what I was saying. All I'm saying, basically, is that maybe we don't have to freak out about this article that happens to have been written by a Muslim. That's my basic point.

You're agreeing more with Manzoor than with anything I've said.

moseby:ryan and... (Below threshold)
ryan:

moseby:

ryan and 1/2 canadian: go eff yerselves!!!

Ah, your intelligence is really shining through now. Nice one.

But seriously...did you actually READ what I wrote? If so, what do you disagree with specifically? Can you articulate yourself a little better than resorting to lame insults?

I'll bet you can.

I read enuff of yer claptra... (Below threshold)
moseby:

I read enuff of yer claptrap. Islam is shitty and so are yoo.

Odd. If someone was to say ... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Odd. If someone was to say "We should integrate the US to more Christian values", there'd be considerable hue and cry.

"Muslim values" would make the blogosphere non-existant.
-=Mike

I read enuff of yer clap... (Below threshold)
ryan:

I read enuff of yer claptrap. Islam is shitty and so are yoo.

Wow, you should write books. Very thorough insight and analysis.

Look, if you disagree with something, or if you have another point of view, why not come on here and express it? What good does it do to write a few lame insults...like sitting behind some computer screen saying "eff yoo" carries any weight. It's actually pretty damn weak, pal.

MikeSC:Odd. If ... (Below threshold)
ryan:

MikeSC:

Odd. If someone was to say "We should integrate the US to more Christian values", there'd be considerable hue and cry.

You're right about that one. There would pretty much be a huge outcry if ANYONE talked about integrating the US into more traditional values, wherever they're from. It's the old dynamic between traditional and so-called "progressive" forces.

"Muslim values" would make the blogosphere non-existant.

Maybe radical islamist values would, but I'm not so sure about "Muslim values," whatever those are. Pretty hard to define the values of a billion people in some all-encompassing way...just like it's not really easy to define exactly what "Chistian values" mean. Lots of Christians out there, with differing ideas of what's most important.




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