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Know your enemy

Saturday night, Fox News ran a special investigation into the discovery and breaking up of a Hezballah terrorist cell in the United States. Hezballah operatives were raising money by smuggling cigarettes from North Carolina into Michigan, evading Michigan's very high taxes on tobacco. The money raised was partly sent straight to Hezballah in Lebanon and Syria, the rest was used to buy weapons and paramilitary gear both here and in Canada for export to Hezballah.

It must be noted that the Hezballah operatives arrested were not charged with planning or assisting in any terrorist attacks here in the United States, and there was no evidence whatsoever that they intended such. Their mission was purely a supply one -- obtaining money, weapons, and equipment to use in the Middle East.

During the course of the report, they repeated something that I occasionally forget -- that as of September 10, 2001, Hezballah had killed more Americans than any other terrorist organization. They killed 241 American Marines and Sailors in Beirut in 1983. They kidnapped dozens of Americans in Lebanon, torturing and killing several -- including the CIA bureau chief. They hijacked an airliner and murdered US Navy diver Robert Stethem. They blew up two Jewish targets in Argentina, killing over 100. They triggered the recent Israeli invasion of Lebanon. And I've barely scratched the surface of the misdeeds of Hezballah.

But Hezballah is not the enemy.

Al Qaeda has waged war against the United States for over a dozen years. They tried to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993. They nearly sank the USS Cole. They killed hundreds in attacks on two of our embassies in Africa. And in 2001, they took the crown from Hezballah in "killing Americans."

But Al Qaeda is not the enemy.

Hamas and Fatah are the two leading Palestinian terrorist organizations. They are currently in a struggle to see which can claim to be the "legitimate" government of the Palestinians. Hamas has killed dozens of Americans over its history, as has Fatah. In fact, Fatah (in its prior incarnation as the Palestinian Liberation Organization) had deliberately assassinated two United States diplomats, on the direct orders of Yassir Arafat (Nobel Peace Prize Winner Emeritus).

But Hamas and Fatah are not the enemy.

All these groups are part of the enemy. They are heads of the hydra, and that hydra is militant Islam.

I've said some very unpleasant things about militant Islam. I cited its standing as the only major religion that treats apostasy (leaving the faith) as a capital offense, and called it "the Roach Motel of religions."

A while ago, while calling in to the always-worthwhile Pundit Review radio show, I compared Islam to alcohol -- "some people can handle it, some can't." At that time, I censored myself. I wanted to quite Marx's aphorism that "religion is the opiate of the masses" and expound on it, comparing Islam to a more potent and more addictive substances, but I restrained myself.

A third, vile comparison has come to me.

One of the tenets of militant Islam is the division of the world into two hemispheres -- Dar Al-Islam and Dar Al Harb, or The House Of Islam and the House Of War. This is also summed up as "the part of the world that abides by Islam now" and "the part of the world that will be conquered by Islam."

Another of the tenets of militant Islam is that once an area is governed by Islam, it is Islamic land for ever. We see that in Spain, where the Moors were driven out by the Spaniards. The return of Al Andalus is a frequent call of the radicals.

This was rammed home with ruthless clarity during the Pope's trip to Turkey last year. He visited the Ayasofya Museum in Istanbul. Prior to 1935, the building was a mosque. And prior to that, it was the Hagia Sophia.

The Hagia Sophia had been a Christian church for over 900 years. It had even served as the seat of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

But in 1453, it was conquered by Muslims and made into a mosque.

The Pope was allowed to visit the Hagia Sophia, but was warned that he was not to pray, not to genuflect, not to do anything to acknowledge the building's history as one of Christianity's most important sites. Once the building was made into a mosque, all its prior history was wiped clean and made irrelevant. It had become Muslim, and like converts, it is not allowed to go back.

In that sense, it seems that militant Islam treats its faith like AIDS. Once it has "infected" a place, there is no cure.

This is what we face. This is our future, as written by the Islamists.

I firmly believe that it will never happen, that the attempt to bring the United States and the rest of the world under the brutal heel of militant Islam is doomed to failure.

But I fear the butcher's bill we will have to pay to prevent it.


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Comments (65)

And here I thought, by list... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

And here I thought, by listening to libs and people like Jimmah Carter, and reading and watching the American and British media, that American conservatives was the enemy.

Well written post, Jay, how... (Below threshold)

Well written post, Jay, however you need to do a little bit more research on the Hagia Sophia. Having traveled there myself, I can say that the government seems to be taking strides not to connect it to ANY religion whatsoever right now. I understand your point about the Pope not being allowed to recognize one of the oldest standing churches, not to mention one of the largest in Christian History. However, while converted to a mosque when the Ottomans conquered the Byzantine Empire the amazing mosaics inside the Hagia Sophia were plastered over (due to the "graven images" that are considered taboo in Islam). Today, many of the plasters are being removed and the Mosaics underneath are being uncovered. Such as a testament to the building no longer being used as a Mosque either (if it were, the mosaics would remain plastered over, or destroyed entirely).

I should know, I have witnessed the inside of the building firsthand.

It is interesting to note t... (Below threshold)
Rober the original:

It is interesting to note that the tobacco tax the liberal Democrat Governor Granholm of Michigan loves so much is now supporting terrorists.

I have written here before that when the tax was raised 200% to approximate that of New York - and up to eight times higher that nearby States - that the program would only fuel the black market. Worse than that, Granholm has sued Internet companies, UPS and the USPS to get names of citizens buying online, who are now getting bills for thousands even though they did not know this was illegal.

Of course people will go elsewhere when the tax is increased by so much, and only liberal Democrats seem not to know this. But a black market has other consequences such as Al Capone and the Purple Gang in their time.

You will not be able to pos... (Below threshold)

You will not be able to post such blasphemy after you are living under Sharia law.

Jay, as always, a well writ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Jay, as always, a well written and provocative post. I would have to disagree with one point. I am not so sure the radical islamists would lose. From the posts here and elsewhere on the web and news show, most of the citizens are oblivious or too wrapped up on there party to demonstrate the will needed to win this protracted battle. I have always said this is a holy war. We as a nation may have not called it that, but the islamists have. You cannot negotiate faith. You believe or you don't. They really, really believe, America kinda believes in their faith. I can go on, but why? ww

An additional point here. ... (Below threshold)
epador:

An additional point here. Oregon has it's legislators considering a massive tobacco tax hike to finance health care for all children. And they're looking into a Massachusetts's style Health care system for all. Yet they can't bring themselves to raise the money to even finance the the education laws they've passed.

Hellsballs has no problem figuring out out to finance its plans.

Jay, I think we'd better start learning the shortest distance to Mecca so we know which direction to pray.

Jay: Best. Post. Ever. ... (Below threshold)
Old Coot:

Jay: Best. Post. Ever.

The far left thinks the op... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

The far left thinks the options are attack or no attack.

Reasonable people know the choice is not if, but when an attack occurs here.

Very well done jay.<p... (Below threshold)
Hugh:

Very well done jay.

H

In that sense, it ... (Below threshold)
In that sense, it seems, it seems that militant Islam treats its faith like AIDS. Once it has "infected" a place, there is no cure.
It is the darkside of the Islamic concept of "waqf". Similar to the way some apologists describe "jihad" as "internal struggle with one's weaknesses" so is "waqf" described as similar to the West's concept of a "trust"...

Yet, if one reads the Hamas Covenant, it is clear that Islamists consider any land once "consecrated as Islamic" then it is in perpetuality an Islamic waqf

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.
Great post, Jay.

Jay Tea, You missed the Pop... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

Jay Tea, You missed the Pope praying toward Mecca in the Haggia Sofia? Check the tape! And before Vatican II, another religion treated apostasy AND heresy as capital offences.

And before Vatican... (Below threshold)
Heralder:
And before Vatican II, another religion treated apostasy AND heresy as capital offences.

Why, I do believe you are right bryan! When was that by the way...and how is it relevant to this dicussion on current events (other than, of course a weak attempt to dilute the conversation..)

And before Vatican... (Below threshold)
And before Vatican II, another religion treated apostasy AND heresy as capital offences
Funny, I don't remember any Catholic terrorists blowing up and murdering apostates across the world at the behest of the Pope in 1967.

Though, I was only a teen at the time. The biggest change I saw for my Catholic friends in 1968 was English masses and the cessation of forgoing meat every Friday. How did I miss all those worldwide Popish murders?

Gee, BryanD, I'm SO glad to... (Below threshold)

Gee, BryanD, I'm SO glad to hear that the Church formally ended this practice 40 years ago, and hadn't actually used it in (wildly speculating) a couple of centuries.

But I seem to recall a case within the last year or so of a man in Pakistan (or, perhaps, Afghanistan) who had converted to Christianity and was being threatened with actual DEATH by the government.

Could you find another point, and could this one actually be RELEVANT and GERMANE and TIMELY?

I stand by my assertion: that Islam is the only major religion that treats apostasy as a capital offense, has held that unique status for some time, and shows NO signs of giving it up. Care to refute that with something that doesn't date back nearly half a century in theory, and a couple centuries in actuality?

(Of course, one COULD argue that the legions of Jewish mothers who threaten suicide if their child marries outside the faith might qualify, but that's really stretching the point.)

J.

Now when was "bryanDumbass"... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Now when was "bryanDumbass" ever logical?

Much less relevant or timel... (Below threshold)
Listkeeper:

Much less relevant or timely. Or accurate.

liberals being economic foo... (Below threshold)
jp:

liberals being economic fools and creating black markets is nothing new....soon there will be a black market for Trans fat foods in this big lib/commie cities.


if they ever legalize drugs, the idiot govt. will tax it to a point were there will still be a black market for it.

Of course they come here to... (Below threshold)
John:

Of course they come here to buy weapons. This is a great place for it thanks to the NRA crowd!

Congratulations on all your efforts to weaken weapon tracking legislation, waiting periods, background checks, and make things like convertable automatic weapons and "cop killer" bullets.

What a great place to buy this shit! We make more of it than anybody, and you can get volume discounts, praise allah.

Do you see how your policy decisions come back to you?

Jay Tea, <a href="http://w... (Below threshold)
bryanD:
One of your best posts, Jay... (Below threshold)
ijosha:

One of your best posts, Jay Tea.

I cannot resist, howerver, nitpicking one part -- Your post was supposedly about militant Islam, yet in the following part you (adventantly?) left out the "militant" bit:

"A while ago, while calling in to the always-worthwhile Pundit Review radio show, I compared Islam to alcohol -- "some people can handle it, some can't." At that time, I censored myself. I wanted to quite Marx's aphorism that "religion is the opiate of the masses" and expound on it, comparing Islam to a more potent and more addictive substances, but I restrained myself."

(note also the typo "quite") :-)

Nice typical anti-gun respo... (Below threshold)
Bob Jones:

Nice typical anti-gun response from John...totally clueless.

Criminals don't bother with background checks asshole, law abiding citizens, exercising their 2nd Amendment rights do though and in the process purchase items in which to defend themselves from people who break the law. Of course your head will be in the sand when they come to cut it off.

Like a virulent virus, radi... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

Like a virulent virus, radical Islam sickens everything it touches. Those infected will never yield to modernity.

It will take generations to wash this filth out of the world.

bryanD, Please poin... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

bryanD,
Please point us to a country today where you will be beheaded or tortured or put in jail for not converting to Christianity. On the other hand, you will be tortured or killed in Islamic countries or atheistic communist countries. In terms of history, atheism or secularism come in worst so far in terms of atrocities. Communism (a form of atheism or fundamentalist secularism) killed hundreds of millions of people and still a hell-hole today in many countries. Radical Islam may yet surpass that. On the other hand, you are enjoying the freedom accorded you by "christianity". Maybe the tyrannical tendencies of the atheists make them more sympathatic to the radical Islamists.

Now back to the subject of ... (Below threshold)

Now back to the subject of Know Your Enemy.

When I read this story about an attack on US troops at a government building in Karbala, Iraq something didn't sit well with me.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/22/iraq.karbala/index.html

First off, if you read the article the attackers had to pass through 3 check points to get to their final attack destination.

Second was this paragraph: "Al-Mishawi said it is standard procedure for U.S. troops not to jointly man the checkpoint. He said U.S. personnel insist on passing without going through a security screening."

But the final paragraph that really had me convinced something is not right here is this one:
"When asked why Iraqi police did not intervene to stop the gunmen from fleeing, al-Mishawi said "they assumed it was American-on-American violence and wanted to stay out of it."

Do you still think Bush's plan to embed US soldiers with Iraqi police and military is a good idea?

you are enjoying the fre... (Below threshold)
mantis:

you are enjoying the freedom accorded you by "christianity"

The freedom we enjoy was "accorded" (sic) to us by enlightenment thinkers who realized that the natural tendency of religions towards sectarianism and its concomitant violence was an obstacle in the way of the progress of society. That the enlightenment came from western civilization, i.e. christendom, may point to a uniqueness in christianity, or at least its historical progression, but freedom, as we now know it, was an idea born in reaction to christianity; it is not a central tenet thereof.

Maybe the tyrannical tendencies of the atheists make them more sympathatic to the radical Islamists.,

Shows how much you know about atheists. We are not, by any means, sympathetic to Islamists. They represent the very worst aspects of religion.

J Tea, to paraphrase an old... (Below threshold)
cubanbob:

J Tea, to paraphrase an old aphorism " if a billion people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing". Just like socialism.

Shows how much you know ... (Below threshold)

Shows how much you know about atheists.

To be fair, the main example is O'Hair's organization, which was not run very democratically to say the least.

LoveAmerica Immigrant ... (Below threshold)
aRepukelican:

LoveAmerica Immigrant

Germany was and is a "christian" nation and it gave rise to Nazism. Likewise in Italy w/ Mussolini and Spain w/ Franco.

You make a misstake when you try to suggest that the US was founded on Christian principles. That had nothing to do with the founsing as Mantis pointed out above.

Fox News?Isn't they ... (Below threshold)
Rance:

Fox News?
Isn't they the crack investigative organization that found out that Barack Obama was schooled as a terrorist in Indonesia when he was 6?

To be fair, the main exa... (Below threshold)
mantis:

To be fair, the main example is O'Hair's organization, which was not run very democratically to say the least.

First off, what does that have to do with atheist sympathy for islamists?

In regards to American Atheists (the late O'Hair's organization), as I understand it there are approximately 2000 members. I have no idea if it is run democratically or not as I am not a member and am not very familiar with the group. I am more familiar with the newer Secular Coalition for America and Americans United for Separation of Church and State, though neither of those is strictly for atheists. The only pseudo-atheist group I have any association with is the Skeptics Society, though they aren't strictly atheist either.

None of these groups, democratic or not, have any sympathy for islamists.

I missed this show Jay...I ... (Below threshold)
nogo postal:

I missed this show Jay...I was still rocked by FOX who on Friday used irrefutable proof that Obama had been trained as a kid in a fundie Islamic school..don't forget his middle name ever...and could very well be a "sleeper". I am sure Homeland Security forces are already acting upon the proof FOX obviously provided..I hope these terrorists are captured and sent to Gitmo...Failure of our govt to act will tell volumes if our President really cares about our security...
..

Isn't it amazing how dumb "... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Isn't it amazing how dumb "[email protected]" sounds everytime he post something along with old "pukeface"

"preymantis"--why should anyone believe you?

"preymantis"--why should... (Below threshold)
mantis:

"preymantis"--why should anyone believe you?

I wouldn't expect you to believe anyone but the voices in your head.

One always needs a mop and ... (Below threshold)
aRepukelican:

One always needs a mop and disinfectant after jhow66's defecations here at Wizbang.

All these groups are par... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

All these groups are part of the enemy. They are heads of the hydra, and that hydra is militant Islam.

Maybe so, but it is a mistake for us to unite all these groups into a single enemy and apply a single strategy to defeating them. Our approach should be to divide and conquer these groups; not give them reasons to work together.

Take Al Qaeda and Hezbollah for example. Al Qaeda is based on the Wahabbi brand of Sunni Islam that has its birthplace in Saudi Arabia. Hezbollah is a Shiite grouping with its roots in Iran and Lebanon's Shiite communities. The two hate each other and consider each other to be apostates (see the voluminous histories on the Sunni-Shiite divide for more details). We can see how well the Sunnis and Shiites get along on the streets of Baghdad today.

So rather than expand our current conflicts to include Hezbollah, I'd like to suggest that we focus on scoring one small victory on militant Islam: that of defeating Al Qaeda in the Anbar province of Iraq.

After all, if we can't accomplish that, then how does it make sense to open up a second front with Hezbollah?


[email protected] said this in respons... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

[email protected] said this in response to the Kerbala compound attack that claimed the lives of 5 US soldiers:

Do you still think Bush's plan to embed US soldiers with Iraqi police and military is a good idea?

Obviously not since that makes them sitting ducks for this kind of hit.

But the incident in Kerbala was also unusual because the attackers had US uniforms, spoke English, and drove vehicles that looked exactly like the kind we use in convoys. Who has the capability to pull off this kind of attack in Shiite-controlled Kerbala? Sadr's motley Mahdi Army? Al Qaeda in Iraq? I doubt it.

This attack almost had to be the work of Iranian agents in Iraq. Possibly it was the Badr Brigades but they haven't attacked us much before in Iraq.

Couple this with the shooting down of the Blackhawk helicopter by a shoulder-filled missile in Diyala killing all 12 aboard and we may be seeing the Iranian response to our capturing of their five diplomat/spies in Kirkuk.

So Bush certainly deserves some congratulations here. He has managed to escalate the conflict in Iraq and make the untenable position of our troops even more difficult. The Iranians are crawling all over Iraq and these two attacks are just a small example of what they can do. We are likely to find fighting the Iranians in Iraq a heck of a lot more difficult that the ragtag Sunni groups we've been facing.


loveamerica immigrant: I am... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

loveamerica immigrant: I am a Christian, but Catholism isn't. They're not the same. (Ex. God commands Christians not to change his laws (commandments), but the Holy See removed the 2nd one dealing with idol-worship, and so to keep the "ten", the 10th commandment was divided in two to make 9 and 10. It's in the catachism. And the scriptures were forbidden to all but priests until Vatican II. Why? Because any one who reads the Bible will discover how un-Biblical Catholism is. Even today, with the publication of the Catholics' "Jerusalem" Bible for the laity (which is not based on the Textus Receptus, but on the greatly inferior Vulgate from Alexandria) you'd be very hard pressed to find a Biblically-literate Catholic. That's why it's entirely accurate to refer to them as papists. As for Catholic zealots killing infidels: there was a degree of that in Rwanda and local Catholic hierarchs have been implicated (the catholic-call-to-arms via am radio); the Croatian-Bosnian and Croatian-Serbian wars in 90-93 always involved dispoiling cemetaries and churches and mosques, etc.; Vietnam when in 1960 Diem ordered the suppression of the Buddhists and set off the self-immolation demonstrations of the monks. Who knows where else? Religious controversies in the west are impolite. Ecumenicism is in season, ergo: the Pope praying to mecca. The popes have been in "sleeper" mode since getting busted in the Ratline affair after WWII. Here's a link: Even if you don't believe it it's a damn good read! http://chick.com/catalog/books/0153.asp?wpc=0153.asp&wpp=a

BryanD, do you even researc... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

BryanD, do you even research the guff you hear just a little bit.

That tripe about the 2nd Commandment can easily be disproven with a quick trip to an online Bible site or Wikipedia.

But what the heck does that have to do with Religious murders today.

Unless you want to talk about the Catholic Nun shot in the back by muslims because of the Pope's statements.

Our approach should be t... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Our approach should be to divide and conquer these groups; not give them reasons to work together.

OK, on the surface that sounds good. But what are your thoughts on how one goes about dividing and conquering said groups?

Larkin:Th... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Larkin:

This attack almost had to be the work of Iranian agents in Iraq. Possibly it was the Badr Brigades but they haven't attacked us much before in Iraq.

That was the first thought that came to mind when I read this story.

Couple this with the shooting down of the Blackhawk helicopter by a shoulder-filled missile in Diyala killing all 12 aboard and we may be seeing the Iranian response to our capturing of their five diplomat/spies in Kirkuk.

Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for this, I doubt this was Iran. It's not particularly difficult to come across shoulder-fired AA.

So Bush certainly deserves some congratulations here. He has managed to escalate the conflict in Iraq and make the untenable position of our troops even more difficult.

The whole reason we moved against the Iranian agents in the first place Larkin, was to begin at the roots and supply lines of many insurgent groups in Iraq.

Once again, you can't solve a problem by ignoring it.

jpm100, You've just entered... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

jpm100, You've just entered the jowl69 region of numbskullery. Wiki confirms me. You're a joke. Was that supposed to be a fake-out or something gay like that? Congrats! You're a confirmed Wiener Boy!

Hey bryanD, did you know th... (Below threshold)

Hey bryanD, did you know that there were originally fifteen commandments? But it looks like five were suppresed pre-"papism".

God I love jhow66. Love 'e... (Below threshold)
Mitchell:

God I love jhow66. Love 'em.

"[email protected]" LMFAO!

nogo postal : I don't know ... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

nogo postal : I don't know what Osama Hussein Obama has to do with this post but unlike the antique MSM, FOX has issued a correction/apology for their failure to check the source of the information on Obama. It doesn't change the fact that if Obama is telling the truth he is a walking dead man. One only gets one chance to return to Islam and if they fail to do so the Koran demands their death. Islam is like a liberal, once in Islam you never get out, Liberals start stupid and never change.

Clueless to the core:... (Below threshold)
marc:

Clueless to the core:

Fox News?
Isn't they the crack investigative organization that found out that Barack Obama was schooled as a terrorist in Indonesia when he was 6?
:: by Rance on January 22, 2007 2:22 PM ::

Ah... no, that would be Insight Magazine that made that accusation. Fox only reported what they printed. And when they did one remark was in the wait and see variety , the other was a reference to Saudi support of Madrasses and not on Obama.

marcGet off your d... (Below threshold)
aRepukelican:

marc

Get off your dodging crap w/ regard to Fox. Fox gave it currency and that was their intention. Passing along shit for the faithful like you who would give it further currency. Keep sucking the Fox tit for your "news." It just reflects why you think like an asshole.

Pukeboy, you never finished... (Below threshold)

Pukeboy, you never finished our conversation back on the illegal alien thread:

So, pukeboy, you're going to let those you despise control your actions? You're going to let those you've declared your political enemies sway the way you define yourself? And because SOME of them do ONE thing you don't like, you're going to insult ALL of them?

Not exactly what I'd call a great way to "win friends and influence people." In fact, I think OhioVoter nailed it -- it's beyond juvenile. "Infantile" might be closer.

J.

Insight Mag? ...I'm surpris... (Below threshold)
nogo postal:

Insight Mag? ...I'm surprised Fox hasn't picked up on this http://www.theonion.com/content/node/56631

My Lord, BryanD.Your... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

My Lord, BryanD.
Your ignorance knows no bounds, and that is proven by the fact that you cite Jack Chick as an authority.

That was the first time I'v... (Below threshold)
mantis:

That was the first time I've ever seen anyone on a blog link to Jack Chick as a reference. I also liked this line from BryanD:

Wiki confirms me.

I don't know what he was referring to, but you can get a wiki to confirm anything you want. It's a wiki!

Jack Chick is actually Darth Vader. Wiki confirms me!

AWI don't carry on... (Below threshold)
aRepukelican:

AW

I don't carry on discussions w/ people who use language like you do. GTH JT

Were puke's feelings hurt b... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Were puke's feelings hurt by being called out for the troll he is?

Shame.
-=Mike

No, they weren't.J... (Below threshold)
aRepukelican:

No, they weren't.

Jay Tea really ignored discussing the main thrust of the post that led to his quoted snotty reply above.

Ask him why he never answered the point I raised.

mantis, you said: "I also l... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

mantis, you said: "I also liked this line from BryanD:

Wiki confirms me."....mantis, you got me there! I was specifically checking jpm's citation and supposed wiki-rebuttal to an earlier point I made. I agree about wiki. It's good for re-reading a pet topic, but as a source of new info it's....a wiki! (Since I knew jpm was full of it, I wanted to make sure wiki wasn't wrong, too ;you never know) Anyway... It's like when the brother in law says "hit me!", the thing to do is hit him.

Al-Qaeda claimed respons... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for this, I doubt this was Iran. It's not particularly difficult to come across shoulder-fired AA.

It was just reported that the weapon used was a SAM (surface-to-air-missile). Maybe Al Qaeda is in posession of those as well. I just can't recall the last time a Blackhawk was downed by a SAM in Iraq. It could be just a coincidence that it happened on the same day as the Kerbala incident.

I also saw a report that there was a big battle with Al Qaeda in Diyala province over the weekend so maybe the Blackhawk went down in that operation. I initially thought Iran might be behind it because Diyala province has the longest border with Iran of any Iraqi province so I think it's safe to assume the Iranians are well entrenched there.

The central question I am trying to raise is whether we think the Iranians have been doing everything they can against us in Iraq, OR have they been holding back? I don't think anyone knows that answer for sure but if it is the latter we could be in for more nasty surprises like the Blackhawk and Kerbala incidents.

If we thought Iraq was bad up until now we could find it a heck of a lot more difficult if we are fighting the Sunnis AND Al Qaeda AND the Mahdi Army AND the Badr Brigades AND the Iranians all the same time. I seriously question whether we have enough forces in Iraq to do that.

I think Jay Tea needs to qu... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

I think Jay Tea needs to quit jabber jawin' and write a new post! Like where's the Intelligence Assessment to justify the energy drink--I mean, The Surge? (Yes, I just watched Richard Clark on Olbermann.)

But what are your though... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

But what are your thoughts on how one goes about dividing and conquering said groups?

Well, for example, if my goal was to defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq the first thing I would do is make a deal with the Sunni insurgency. Figure out what they want (which is probably some level of autonomy) and give it to them in exchange for them ratting out the Al Qaeda in their midst and assisting us in driving them out. The Sunnis speak the lingo, they know the territory, and they can pick the Al Qaeda out of a crowd. We sure as hell can't do any of those things in Anbar province right now.

That's divide and conquer. Somtimes you have to make a deal with the devil to defeat a more important threat. We made a deal with Stalin to defeat Hitler. We dealt with the Afghan mujehedin to defeat the Russians in Afghanistan. We can deal with the Sunnis. My guess is that most of them have picked up weapons in order to defend themselves against Sadr's murderous thugs anyway. We could use that fact to defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq.

But we won't because GW has figured a much more intelligent strategy: take on all the armed groups in Iraq (incl. now the Shiite militias) simultaneously with a force that is probably 200,000 troops short of the size needed to accomplish that mission.


marc - Keep sucking the... (Below threshold)
marc:

marc - Keep sucking the Fox tit for your "news." It just reflects why you think like an asshole.
Posted by: aRepukelican at January 22, 2007 07:25 PM

Why assume I get news from only a single source? First of all you have zero idea how and where I receive my news, secondly you make the assumption because it fits your agenda and also "allows" you to "debate" without actually doing so. In other words - you ain't got anything else.


I don't carry on discussions w/ people who use language like you do. GTH JT
:: by aRepukelican on January 22, 2007 7:54 PM ::

Do you mean like your usage of language as quoted above? Or any of the dozens of other examples of your "colorful" use of language?

Nice to know that I can sti... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Nice to know that I can still make "bryanDumbass", "preymantis", and old "[email protected]" spit nails because I know what they are and what "club" they belong to. Opps! I left out old "pukeface". Sorry "pukey" didn't mean to slight you. (pssst "pukey" have you got Jay's foot out of your ass yet?)

Well, for example, if m... (Below threshold)
marc:

Well, for example, if my goal was to defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq the first thing I would do is make a deal with the Sunni insurgency. Figure out what they want (which is probably some level of autonomy) and give it to them in exchange for them ratting out the Al Qaeda in their midst and assisting us in driving them out. The Sunnis speak the lingo, they know the territory, and they can pick the Al Qaeda out of a crowd. We sure as hell can't do any of those things in Anbar province right now. Posted by: Larkin at January 22, 2007 09:44 PM

Your a year late, Bush already made steps in the direction.

Marc,This strategy... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

Marc,

This strategy has never really been given a chance. The Sunnis have been completely locked out of power in Iraq. Maliki's national "reconciliation" talks have gone nowhere. The promised renegotiation of the Constitution has never gotten to square one (remember, that was the promise that got the Sunnis to cancel their boycott of the last election).

So that's why we continue to battle the Sunnis every day. I still contend that the vast majority of the Sunnis would turn on Al Qaeda if they were given a fair share of power and protected from Sadr's murderous thugs. The Sunnis are our natural allies in Iraq since they are clearly opposed to the Shiite/Iranian ascendancy that is taking place in Iraq. We need them as a buffer against the Iranians. Instead we are fighting them at the behest of the Shiite-dominated government with the result that Al Qaeda has a safe haven from which to operate in Sunni-controlled areas.

This strategy just doesn't make sense at all to me but maybe you can explain?

Larkin:Well, fo... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Larkin:

Well, for example, if my goal was to defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq the first thing I would do is make a deal with the Sunni insurgency.

While it's admirable and most desirable to negotiate a peace, the trouble with this line of thinking falls back to an old business axiom: "He who negotiates first, loses." Since AQ in Iraq has a strong Sunni/Whabbist/Baathist influence in its ranks, and who have been the instigators of terrorist acts (like the bombing of the Shiite's Golden Dome in Samarra on Feb 22, 2006, that's triggered and marked the beginning of this huge rise is sectarian violence), this desire to negotiate with them would only reinforce the notion that killing and committing acts of terrorism is a powerful and acceptable political tool to get the other side (the US in this case) to negotiate. And that's just not morally acceptable on any level.

The Sunnis have been completely locked out of power in Iraq.

Considering Sunnis only make up 20% of Iraq's population that should come as no great surprise. The fact that they brutally ran the country for 30+ years, it shouldn't be a shock that the S'hia and Kurds (let's remember them, too...we don't hear them complaining too much about not having enough power) really don't give a damn about a "fair share of power" in government for the Sunni. Furthermore, in a democratically elected government no one is just "given their fair share of power", that must be earned by the votes of the Iraqi people. To do otherwise, to simply "give" power to someone is antithetical to the democratic process. If the Sunnis want a fair share of power then they're going to have to earn it by being diplomatic, compromising and show some kind of reconciliation for the past 30 years of brutality in order to placate the S'hia and Kurds. That said...

...and protected from Sadr's murderous thugs.

I agree 100% that the Sunni population must feel some sense of protection and security from the likes of al Sadr and his Mahdi militia and other Shiite kidnappers, murderers and thugs. Not confronting al Sadr and his militia, coupled with Mailki's "hands off" approach to dealing with him and other S'hia militia, has been a costly and terrible mistake in this war. This is something that the Coalition's new plan of "clear and stay" addresses, and should go and hopefully will go a long way in providing the sense of security. This should help bring Sunnis into the political fold a bit more and, like you said, help us root out the Sunni/AQI insurgents.

The Sunnis are our natural allies in Iraq since they are clearly opposed to the Shiite/Iranian ascendancy that is taking place in Iraq.

I flatly disagree with this. Sunnis may be some kind of "buffer" as you say against the Iranian-backed Shiite militias, but how much so seems like so much wishful thinking. Our natural allies in Iraq are the Kurds, despite our post Gulf War 1 transgressions against them. They have been remarkably cooperative with the Coalition and the new government; and, according to two friends of mine who've served in Iraq, they are someone whom the Shiites and Sunni absolutely and outright fear and rarely confront or antagonize for fear of brutal retaliation. In fact, the Kurdish areas of Iraq remain largely peaceful and untouched by the sectarian violence. (Hypothetically, my friends believe that if we threw out the current government, backed the Kurds and gave them power, this sectarian lunacy would end within the month. That's how much S'hia and Sunni fear the Kurds. Doing so would really "divide and conquer". Of course it would piss off the Turks and that's why it would never happen, but...it's a thought.)

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