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So what's the problem? Weren't they elected?

Over in the Palestinian territories, a bunch of people are upset over Hamas. More specifically, they're upset over Hamas' latest action. It seems that someone published a book of Palestinian folk tales and the like, and one story was just a little on the risque side -- and Hamas, who holds the majority of the Palestinian government, banned it from school libraries.

This brought up a few observations of my own.

1) Hamas' charter specifically said that they intended to institute an Islamic theocracy in the Palestinian territories. Under such a state, book-banning is entirely predictable -- and, in fact, mandatory. Hamas never made any bones about its intentions.

2) Hamas' charter also calls for the extermination of the "Zionist State" -- the affectionate little pet name anti-Semites call Israel. They've repeatedly affirmed that position, too.

3) Despite the best efforts of apologists around the world, Hamas has never made any bones of its agenda -- the destruction of Israel and its replacement with an Islamic state. Its successes in elections hasn't changed that one damned bit. They have not suddenly embraced democracy and freedom; they've simply tried out a new tactic -- and it seems to be working. I predict a future push for the classic totalitarian 'experiment" with democracy -- "one man, one vote, one time."

4) The greatest Palestinian folk tale has to be the fairy tale about their ever being a historical "Palestine." The current "Palestinians" are a mishmash of Jordanians, Egyptians, and other castoffs cobbled together into a faux "people" to use as a weapon against Israel.

(Update: this piece was supposed to publish itself at 8;00, but due to unavoidable error (translation: the author is a bonehead when it comes to consistently using the blogging software), it was briefly published early. Hence the comments that seem to predate the actual publishing of the piece. My apologies, but I'm not so foolish to promise that it won't happen again.)


Comments (35)

Oh get over yourself. The c... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

Oh get over yourself. The colony of Israel, ( and yes, it is a zionist state, being founded and created by them, and having a stated ethnically/religious/whatever the zionists are deciding being "jewish" is today... "pure" nation.

Zionists are in the same league as the jihad nutjobs. Justifying their idiotic and violent antics by ancient texts.

Good luck with denying a Palestine. Unfortunately for you, there's quite a few million people who want a nation called "Palestine" so your attempt at a historical justification is a moot point.

As a direct decendant of a crusader ( the knights templar to be precise ) I want us to recreate the kingdom of Jerusalem. A Christian state. It's only fair. The jews could never keep their little nation going in the past, and neither could the arabs. Since Christians are actually the current rulers of the roost our claims trump them both.

In actual fact, the colony of Israel ( and that's what it is, after all, they get more of my tax dollars than I do ) will wink out of existence the moment we stop support, or ourselves lose pre-eminence. Just like the latin kingdoms before them. Just like the original Canaan ( and I muich prefered the Canaanites ) and other forms "Israel" took.

Even the Romans gave them unrivalled privalleges as part of their empire and the fundie jews still resorted to terrorism. Their entire history is based on not getting along with anyone and never compromising to live with other semites.

Keep up the Israeli lobby PR...I'm sure they pay you well champ. They've certainly perfected the art of PR within the US. Luckily, there are still other news sources that inform us as to what's really going on in the ME.

Hamas is a product of Israel. Ye reap what ye sow. Isreali and US policy has been working for decades to make the opposition less secular and more Islamic based. It's all they have left. Enjoy as the nutjobs take on the nutjobs now with no room for any logical discussion. Just opposing views on the ghost in the clouds and his apparent views on real estate.

Oh, and please...be a good dear and refrain from ever thinking Israel and the word Jew are ever interchangable. One is a nation ( though priding itself on it's ethnic purity and makeup ) the other is an entire people. To hate one for things it does is rational. To hate a people for merely existing is called racism. While some nutjobs hate both, most, including those in the Arab world, hate the former for valid reasons ( at least in their eyes ) rather than hating the later.

The clock has started on wh... (Below threshold)
marc:

The clock has started on when the first troll chimes in with, "what, Hamas is the duly elected gov of Palestine. I thought American wanted democracy in the Middle East?"

10,9,8,7,..........

I missed it by this_______ ... (Below threshold)
marc:

I missed it by this_______ much.

Well not really, no mention of "duly elected gov." but it reads pretty much the same. Just another in a long line of terrorist apologists.

He seems to think Arabs don... (Below threshold)
kim:

He seems to think Arabs don't hate joos. I guess it takes all kinds.
==========================

You are off your "Noodle". ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

You are off your "Noodle". Hamas goes into a cafe with women and children and other civilians and blow it up. Israel targets the perpetrators. There is no equivalence. Egypt and Syria invaded Israel for the purpose of killing all jews and taking their land, legally granted by the lefties favorite U.N.. Israel won the war hands down and kept the spoils. Now they want it back.Syria doesn't want palestinians in their country and neither does Egypt. This is a very tired old family feud. Judaism vs Islam. Judaism from Abraham to Isaac and Islam from Abraham and his bastard chile Ishmael. Bad blood there. ww

Even the Romans gave the... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

Even the Romans gave them unrivalled privalleges as part of their empire and the fundie jews still resorted to terrorism.

Oh yeah, having to travel to your place of birth each year so the Romans could keep track of you. Being taxed at a higher rate simply because of your race. Having thousands of your brothers and sisters die because the Romans laid seige to Jerusalem because you are revolting against stiffling suppression of your culture. Being sold into slavery as punishment for revolting.

Sure sound like lovely unrivalled privalleges.

Good luck with denying a... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

Good luck with denying a Palestine. Unfortunately for you, there's quite a few million people who want a nation called "Palestine" so your attempt at a historical justification is a moot point.

Doesn't matter if a few billion people want a nation called "Palestine". If you can't take and hold land you don't get squat. If you are given land and continue with your self-destructive behavior you don't get squat. What we call Palestine only exists because the UN is a corrupt organization and has a strong anti-Israel element.

BTW, Historical justification isn't moot. In fact it is the one defining element of ME problems. When Al Qaida says it wants to reestablish the Caliphate we aren't just talking the ME. We're talking Spain, Portugal, Most of N. Africa and a whole buncha 'stans just south of Russia.

I bring up AQ because, like Hamas, it is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. The MB is dedicated to re-establishing the Caliphate and spreading said Caliphate around the world.

Fantastic Dan, so might mak... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

Fantastic Dan, so might makes right.

BTW, that "anti-Israeli element" happens to be...practically the whole world bar us and Israel. :-D

And cheer up, it's not like the UN is as corrupt as our own government. Because it's vastly not, as Republicans have proven to us happily time and again.

Fantastic Dan, so might ... (Below threshold)
John Irving:

Fantastic Dan, so might makes right.

Not what Dan said.

BTW, that "anti-Israeli element" happens to be...practically the whole world bar us and Israel. :-D

Even if it did, that makes it right?

And cheer up, it's not like the UN is as corrupt as our own government. Because it's vastly not, as Republicans have proven to us happily time and again.

Pray tell us about the mechanisms to elect better "leadership" in the U.N., the primaries that the candidates for Secretary-General has to endure before facing off against a political opponent, the methods for ensuring that representatives are from free and democratic states.

Now find one Republican (or Democratic) scandal as bad as Oil-for-Food. Without resorting to hyperbolic derangement, it's impossible.

"Oh yeah, having to travel ... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

"Oh yeah, having to travel to your place of birth each year so the Romans could keep track of you. Being taxed at a higher rate simply because of your race. Having thousands of your brothers and sisters die because the Romans laid seige to Jerusalem because you are revolting against stiffling suppression of your culture. Being sold into slavery as punishment for revolting."

Hahaha! Oh Dan...what, sympathizing with terrorists now?

Might makes right. You shot your own whiny victim logic in the foot sweetie.

The ancient jews were allowed plenty more than most within the empire. Their own religion for one. A nominal puppet ruler to maintain their "state" within the empire for another. Becoming terrorists and attacking the state is generally frowned upon and dealt with harshly. You'll find the zionists back then were quite the nutjobs too with some rather insane territorial and religious ideas.

I'm so so sooo sorry they had to put up with a census ( which the entire empire did btw ) and a little tax. God forbid the palestinians have to put up with such hardships!

Please leave your strange fantasy histories out of the discussion.

John, yes, Dan indeed impli... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

John, yes, Dan indeed implied "might makes right".

John, yes indeed if a majority want something, and vote for it, that at least makes it fairly valid. I'm sorry you don't like the way the UN lets every nation have a say and vote on many issues.

And John, it'll be quite some news to you, that no one gets to be sec general without us wanting it. Trust me on that.

Much love.

Fantastic Dan, so might ... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

Fantastic Dan, so might makes right.

Yes - that's why Hitler was smacked down in '45. That's why Castro got spanked outa Grenada in '83. That's why Saddam had his butt handed to him in '01 and '03.

Of course it's all in how to you define right. If you agree that people should be allowed to die enmasse then there is no point in talking.

BTW, that "anti-Israeli element" happens to be...practically the whole world bar us and Israel. :-D

On the contrary. Egypt and Jordan have peaceful relations with Israel. Sure they spew anti-semetic rhetoric and will problably attack Israel again if their leaders feel their people are getting to uppity (you always want a scapegoat, Hitler played this card well), but on the whole relations between those countries are peaceful. But I do agree that anti-Israel sentiment (ie jew hating) is pretty widespread. Doesn't make it right.

And cheer up, it's not like the UN is as corrupt as our own government. Because it's vastly not, as Republicans have proven to us happily time and again.

Our goverment is more corrupt than the UN? You've got to be kidding me? And Republicans? You just said 'our government'. That includes Democrats taking $100K bribes and keeping $90K of it in freezers. That's chump change compared to what Koffi, France and Germany made in the oil-for-blood scandal.

Aside: Can we have a discussion that doesn't devolve into Republican/Democrat bashing? I mean, jebus, does your party define your life *that* much?

Oh and John, I'd say having... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

Oh and John, I'd say having the billions in US taxpayer dollars go missing via outright fraud in Iraq, the rest of it being wasted on "new" trucks when fixing the old ones for a tenth of the cost and other such Republican management strategies classify as far worse than a little typical ME bribery. ( Which is how, if you knew anything of the ME, everything is conducted.) Not that it makes it right of course.

And how can we ever forget the classic: "Iraq war clusterf**k" in the first place. That one will be a scandal for the ages. A few hundred thousand dead Iraqis, a few thousand dead Americans and over a TRILLION DOLLARS of our taxes will see to that, short of the place becoming a democratic utopia complete with unicorns and fairies.

I'm sorry you don't like... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

I'm sorry you don't like the way the UN lets every nation have a say and vote on many issues.

And that's the inherent flaw in the UN system. Why should first tier countries (US, France, German, hell - Japan and South Korea) kow tow to obviously unstable countries like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela? Countries that have marked human rights violations like China and N. Korea, Burma (Mayanmar) and Indochina? And don't use the 'well the US is just as bad' argument because the moral equivalency argument is just plain silly.

John, yes, Dan indeed im... (Below threshold)
John Irving:

John, yes, Dan indeed implied "might makes right".

Nope.

John, yes indeed if a majority want something, and vote for it, that at least makes it fairly valid. I'm sorry you don't like the way the UN lets every nation have a say and vote on many issues.

You're actually kinda funny. A majority of what? Nations? Not very democratic. People? Wellll, let me know how that whole "believing China elects their leadership" thing works out for ya, cause meanwhile in the real world it just ain't so. You appear to have a very poor understanding of the United Nations, to say the least.

And John, it'll be quite some news to you, that no one gets to be sec general without us wanting it. Trust me on that.

Why the hell would I trust you? I don't jump off bridges to follow the foolish, particularly one invested in such an idiotic idea.

This is the first time I've ever seen you around here, and I ahve to say, you don't impress in the least. Come back when you have more than talking points, smarminess, and a troll suit.

Dan, John apparently can't ... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

Dan, John apparently can't understand your arguments on "Might Makes Right". However I do. It's my philosophy. Which is why I want the Latin Kingdoms reinstated. We fund the Israeli colony, so really it's our map now to redraw as WE see fit.

Dan, you'll be shocked to know that having normal diplomatic relations with a nation doesn't mean you're supportive and vote for that nation at resolutions in the UN.

Dan, we've been through this. If hating Israel, by intelligent, logical people who object to what a nation does are "also hating the jew" as you would say...then you are clearly deranged or support the view that nations have the right to be ethnically pure. Such is not the case. Is America the sole preserve of white people or of only christians? Why should Israel be this way? Sounds a bit like Nazi Germany to me. Irony is a bitch.

Dan Dan Dan, of course I said "our government". That means all of it. But Republicans have been a shining beacon of hope for those of us who wish to defraud the system. What's a 100k here or there? Or a hooker or two? Randy "Duke" Cunningham certainly has a bit to say on the subject.

And sadly Dan, when it comes to Israel, the Republic party is currently central to the situation. 1. The christian fundamentalism that seeks to support Isreal because it wants to actually ferment conflict and bring about armageddon...and 2..because sadly Bush and the Republicans have thus far left any peace process to rot. There is zero leadership when it comes to the region which is central to our problems and creation of the problems we face in the "war on terror".

Love ya bud. Remember, my ancestors were kicking Islamic jihadist butt centuries ago. Sure we eventually lost...demographics are a pain...but we tried!

I love ya, Jay Tea, but thi... (Below threshold)
HalfArabAllAmerican:

I love ya, Jay Tea, but this post was sub par. It brings up a few observations of my own.

1. Since when does a supposedly democratic vote mean than you have no right to criticize your elected officials? It's a proposterous criticism to suggest that the right to vote and the right of free speech are incompatible.

2. For all your criticism of Palestine, are you of the opinion that they carried out an orderly and fair election that accurately represented the will of their people to the point that they should shut up and take it? Hamas won a majority of seats, they did not win a majority of votes. In many non-hamas districts, there was a Hamas candidate, an official Fatah candidate, and a second Fatah candidate who put himself above his party and refused to bow out of the election. Two candidates with Fatah colors may have together won more votes than a single Hamas candidate, but Hamas won the district. That does not translate to a Hamas mandate.

and

The greatest Palestinian folk tale has to be the fairy tale about their ever being a historical "Palestine." The current "Palestinians" are a mishmash of Jordanians, Egyptians, and other castoffs cobbled together into a faux "people" to use as a weapon against Israel.

3. Where to begin with this?? My family is Palestinian. Not Jordanian. Not Egyption. And not Castoffs. The inhabitants of Palestine prior to 1948 were quite a diverse people. There were Muslims, Christians, and Jews, and subsets within each group. And tensions among all. Perhaps your conclusion is based on the notion that there is not one ethnic "Palestinian" people. That is true. They are not one people. Never were. But they are not a mishmash of other peoples. They are not recent immigrants to Palestine with the intention of being a weapon. They are simply people who lived there.

4. As to the "fairy tale" of an historic Palestine. Palestine means Philistine. And Philistines are an historic people with ties to the land. There is no way to genetically tie Palestinian Arabs to historic Philisties, but so what? Since when is it necessary to prove milleniums old ties to a land to prevent eviction? My grandfather's grandfather lived there, and so on as far as anyone in the family can remember. They lost everything, took what they could carry, and were spit upon as they walked out of Jaffa. They did not come to the area to be a weapon against Isreal. They left their home because they were not violent and were in fear for their lives.

One of the ironies, really, is that Palestinians are criticized for not being able to pull things together as a unified country. Yet, they are criticized for not ever being a unified people. (Faux, I believe, was your word). They are tied to the land in which their elders dwelt, but not each other. There is much to criticize about the Palestinian government. But Jay Tea, you don't need to make stuff up.

Hahaha! Oh Dan...what, s... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

Hahaha! Oh Dan...what, sympathizing with terrorists now?

Not sypathizing. The jews that revolted against Roman rule did so as an organized force that didn't target civilian populations intentionally. Modern terrorism is a pretty modern scourge since the main goal of terrorism it to get your message out. That was a lot harder to do in 900 B.C.

Might makes right. You shot your own whiny victim logic in the foot sweetie.

Why resort to ad homenim attacks? I thought we were having a civil discussion? I also didn't say anything about Roman occupation being good nor bad - I was just refuting your argument. You stated implied things were all butterflies and rainbows under Roman rule. Revisionists say the same thing about the ME during the Caliphate. This is simply not true.

Please leave your strange fantasy histories out of the discussion.

Again with the ad homenim. These aren't my 'strange fantasy histories'.

John, you'd best argue the ... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

John, you'd best argue the "Might is Right" point with Dan. Not me.

Regarding voting at the UN: That's the way the cookie crumbles I'm afraid. Are you seriously implying even *we* have the "voice of the people"?? Sir, kindly see how our system works. We have an electoral college and the states elect the president. We have a representation system about 90 years out of date that certainly doesn't take population growth since the 1920's into account...and a system where the winning party gets to change electoral boundaries to make almost impregnable seats where the opposition doesn't even bother fielding candidates.

What sort of idealistic PC world do you live in?

Much love bud.

Holy shit. This noodle char... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

Holy shit. This noodle character has got to be the biggest moonbat I've seen yet on this site. Truly scary.

Dan, if what you describe i... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

Dan, if what you describe is true...then was Dick Cheney wrong to call Nelson mandella a terrorist?

Dan, the people who rebelled against the Romans were actually a specific cult...( no! Not AQ I hear you say! )rather zionist in nature and beleive me, they did some nasty things before their terrorism was suppressed by the civilizing Roman legions set to the task. Of course, unlike now, they had rather less PC rules of engagement to get the job done.

D-Hoggs! I and the rest of ... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

D-Hoggs! I and the rest of the troops thank you!

Noodle, you really really w... (Below threshold)
John Irving:

Noodle, you really really want what Dan said to agree with you, but it really doesn't come off that way.

Interesting, and debatable, point about the American system, but it works far better than the U.N. does.

Back to work for me for now.

This is just another incide... (Below threshold)
yetanotherjohn:

This is just another incident of the US failing to respect elections. For example, in the 1930's, Germany elected Adolf Hitler and the US spent billions to force him out of office. How dare you look beyond the simple surface fact of the election and consider the actual character of those elected.

I see we have a new troll ... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

I see we have a new troll today. Always happy to see a libbie prove to the world how hateful, ignorant, misguided, and out of touch with reality they are.

Yeah, right, you're one of ... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

Yeah, right, you're one of the troops. You're fantasy land is vast.

I'd love to stay and chat a... (Below threshold)
Noodle:

I'd love to stay and chat about all these and other strange misconceptions you guys have, but my boyfriend beckons!

And yes actually. I serve my country. What, you hate the troops now too?

This is just another inc... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

This is just another incident of the US failing to respect elections

I really hate this argument. How, exactly, are we not 'respecting' their election? We don't give them money anymore? We don't have to give them money. We don't recognise their goverment? We don't have to recognize their goverment. We impose sactions on their goverment? We do that with Iran and S. Korea as well.

So please, how exactly DO we not respect their eletions?

Noodle = dont ask dont tel... (Below threshold)
Alcudia:

Noodle = dont ask dont tell.

And yes actually. I serv... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

And yes actually. I serve my country. What, you hate the troops now too?

It doesn't follow that D-Hogg's disbelief indicates he/she hates the 'troops'. The fact that you resort to ad homenim attacks instead of just debating the issue indicates a lack of maturity on your part, not ours.

And D-Hogg - I had liberal troops serving with me while I was in. They are there and most that I knew were far more articulate and congenial than Noodle.

Noodle says--"I serve my co... (Below threshold)
j:

Noodle says--"I serve my country" (with a red light above the door) or by joining in a "car swarm"

Wow, reading through this t... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

Wow, reading through this thread it's clear to see the anti-Semitism--and no, that isn't a knee jerk reaction to any criticism of Israel. However, when there is fight between Fatah and Hamas over control of their own government and you end up blaming the Jews you are just being anti-Semitic. Period.

The reason so much of the world blames Israel for all their own woes is because it's trendy to do so. Keeps you from having to clean up your mess as long as you can point to Israel and the US to blame.

Read some history. The "Palestinians" were treated like crap long before Israel existed. They are pawns by the neighboring Islamic and Arabic states to use against Israel and the US to cover their own failings in their country. If Israel ceased to exist tomorrow the rest of the Arab nations would carve up the land and there would still be no Palestine--they would go back to being the second class "Arab gypsies" they were before Israel.

No one seems to talk much about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians kicked out of Jordan and Syria and Saudi Arabia--just about the ones kicked out of Israel. No one on the left seems to complain about the wall Eqypt put up to keep the Pals out, but let Israel do it and oh we have apartheid.

The scapegoating of Israel for the condition of the Arabs takes such an immense amount of denial and racism as to be almost sickening to witness.

I'm sorry, but when liberal rants are indistinguishable from those of the KKK you lose all credibility.

...and no, I'm not Jewish.

No noodle, I love the troop... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

No noodle, I love the troops and support them unwaveringly. What I hate is delusional moonbats. Have fun with your "boyfriend".

Noodle seems to convenientl... (Below threshold)
Myackie:

Noodle seems to conveniently forget that the so-called palestonians were offered EVERYTHING they claim to want in 2000 by Ehud Barak and didn't even bother to say yes or no.

They don't want a homeland. For some sick, twisted reason, they want to be thought of as the world's biggest victims. WAAAAAAAAH.

Noodle you are without a cl... (Below threshold)
Ben:

Noodle you are without a clue.

The Romans allowed almost every subjugated people to keep their own religion. They rarely imposed restrictions on religion, in fact, they did so only when a religion was in direct opposition to the Roman government. In the Roman Empire, gods practically ran amok, and the cosmopolitan nature of the civilization encouraged it. Judaism spread, Mithraism spread, Romans picked up gods like Isis from Egypt and Epona from the Celts- not to mention having already swiped the whole Greek crowd.

The rather nasty battles between the Romans and the Jews (not only in Israel, Jews revolted in Cyprus, Mesopotamia, and elsewhere) were as political as they were religious. Roman authority, which represented the wealthy but decadent "west" and was challenged by a very conservative, monotheistic theocratic cult. You could say the fundamentalist Jews then were the fundamentalist Muslims of their time!

But no, they were allowed nothing beyond what everyone was allowed.

Alas, historical irony: Had the Jews of the time been more agreeable to the Romans, perhaps the Eastern Roman Empire would have been stronger relative to the Sassanids, would not have depleted its treasury in wars against them, and then, when a band of desert robbers led by a violent and deranged cult leader emerged out of the Arabian, desert in the 7th century, would have been able to repel them.

Someone just has to invent time travel and go back and correct that mess.

Ben




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