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That which we call a war by any other name...

It's been a bit over four years since a US-led coalition invaded Iraq and overthrew Saddam Hussein's regime, and pretty much since day one Iran has done all it can to keep the carnage going, sustain the violence, and kill as many Americans and our allies as they can.

The fine fellows at Verum Serum have assembled a remarkably useful timeline of Iran-related events in Iraq dating back to August of 2003, and it's amazing how much has been overlooked, downplayed, or just plain forgotten.

I'm wondering about a few things, though, and I thought I'd ask for some opinions from you folks.

1) At what point could it be argued that Iran has committed open acts of war against the United States?

2) At what point could it be argued that Iran has committed open acts of war against the duly-elected government of Iraq?

3) Are there any alternatives to the situation other than capitulating to Iran (by withdrawing from Iraq and letting them have their way in that nation) or massive military strikes to make the price of their actions too high to continue?

My own inclinations are 1) long ago; 2) long ago; and 3) most likely not, but I'd like to hear others' thoughts on the matters.


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Comments (58)

#3, does anyone here believ... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

#3, does anyone here believe that BushCo could effectively respond to Iranian aggression? He can't even defeat the third world Taliban.

God damn, that retard STILL... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

God damn, that retard STILL thinks vapid names like BushCo are "witty." How pathetic.

NEVER!! or at least until ... (Below threshold)
sam:

NEVER!! or at least until this moron's out of office!

1. The draft process is in ... (Below threshold)
nogo postal:

1. The draft process is in place..set it in motion.
Lottery draft 2 million men 1 million women between 18 and 30.

2.Ramp up production of military armament and supplies on the basis of WWII

3. Raise taxes to help pay of it..

4. Then go after Iran

Specifically following the ... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Specifically following the timeline:

1) September 7th, 2006

2) December 21st, 2006

3) I'm honestly not sure yet what the alternatives are.

1) Long ago.2) Lon... (Below threshold)
Old Coot:

1) Long ago.

2) Long ago.

3) Put Michael Ledeen in charge of anti-Iran efforts. Air and sea blockade. Massive aid to dissident groups within Iran. Tell the Euro-weenies to quit enabling our enemies or they will soon feel the lash themselves.

As for #1 and #1, Iran has ... (Below threshold)
Thor-Zone:

As for #1 and #1, Iran has been in this since the beginning. They have done everything they can to make this situation worse than it would otherwise be. From harboring many of the terrorist leaders active in Iraq to providing the terrorists with weapons, they are involved.

As for #3 I am not sure what we need to do here. Iran needs to be dealt with. Look at what they have done to the British forces. It seems to me that if you think nothing Iran has done is at the level of starting a war up until now, this kidnapping of British soldiers crosses that line.

The Iranians have been saying they were going to start kidnapping soliders, I just figured they would try for US soliders.

War with Iran would be bad. I just wish we were doing more to support the people within Iran who want to overthrow their government more openly and strongly.

Tell the Euro-ween... (Below threshold)
kbiel:
Tell the Euro-weenies to quit enabling our enemies or they will soon feel the lash themselves.

Better yet, tell the Euro-weenies, "There are only two sides in a war. Choose one or STFU!"

The problem in Iraq has alw... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

The problem in Iraq has always been internal.. Here is another example:

BAGHDAD - Shiite militants and police enraged by massive truck bombings in Tal Afar went on a revenge spree against Sunni residents in the northwestern town Wednesday, killing as many as 60 people, officials said.

By the way, WE trained and funded the police and not the Iranians.

Um, Jay -- take a look at t... (Below threshold)
pennywit:

Um, Jay -- take a look at the military, and take a look at the polls. The military's already straining with Aghanistan and Iraq, and the polls should tell you the American public doesn't have much more stomach for the Iraq war; I doubt the electorate would care for a war with Iran to boot.

--|PW|--

Um, Jay -- take a look at t... (Below threshold)
pennywit:

Um, Jay -- take a look at the military, and take a look at the polls. The military's already straining with Aghanistan and Iraq, and the polls should tell you the American public doesn't have much more stomach for the Iraq war; I doubt the electorate would care for a war with Iran to boot.

--|PW|--

1-someone stomp the hell ou... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

1-someone stomp the hell out of that piece of pig shit that calls himself barney google--I am to old (72).
2. ditto for sam.
3- Navel blockade-they have plenty of oil but import thier gas and desiel. No fuel no army.

Oh goodie, pennywitless has... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Oh goodie, pennywitless has the answer, let Iran do what they want. Just stand back and watch. Witless you might be supprised what we have "left".

However, Pennywit - sometim... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

However, Pennywit - sometimes you don't have much of a choice. England didn't much want war with Germany, but all diplomacy did was delay the inevitable.

The time may come, sooner than we think, when it's not an option to avoid war. And then we'll be faced with a choice - do we use nukes (since our manpower and material are limited since the 'peace dividend' drawdown in the '90s) or try to stay conventional?

Interesting times... and no simple answers. Whichever side gets the Presidency in '08 may have some very hard choices to make - we can only hope the President of the time is willing to make them instead of ducking them.

jhow, Ha HaDon't f... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

jhow, Ha Ha

Don't forget that we had a short opportunity to improve relationships with the Iranian people.

Iran was never a fan of al Qaeda or the Taliban, and quietly gave support to a US/Russian attack against the Taliban (June 2001). That support carried over post 9/11. Iran even sent word through Sweden they were willing to deal on the Nuke issue. Condi/Bush shot this down. At the time, Iran was experiencing a wave of moderate views. Moment Lost!

Now we are at a cross road with Bush on one side and Akmund a'Minishirt on the other.

So now the mullahs of Iran,... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

So now the mullahs of Iran, an enemy of the US since the 70's, being mad at us is Bush's fault too? Damn the man just won't quit.

I suppose you will argue that the Iranian nuke push is a new development circa Jan 1, 2001 next.

Of course even all that doesn't deminish that we are held in relatively good regard by the Iranian PEOPLE, just not by the backward barbarians who run the country.

Iran's so called president ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Iran's so called president is in a heavy stage of isolating himself from the mullahs and his people. He didn't even show up in the U.N. to spout his hate. The clock is ticking on him. The naval blockade is going on at this point I do believe.
If we go to war with Iran, I would support a tax hike for that only. Pull out of the NATO treaty, since our euro buddies lost their spine and pull the rest out of S. Korea so they too can learn to appreciate us again. There was never a time when Iran's president wanted to seriously "talk" pre or post 9/11. ww

Barney, Sam, Nogo Postal, S... (Below threshold)
Wiley T. Stoner:

Barney, Sam, Nogo Postal, STFU. You asshats do not know what you are talking about. Idiots like you and the lies you spread is the reason Iran is acting the way it does, because that fucking coward Carter didn't have the balls to back an ally. They will push until we shove back and shove back hard. They will lies (something familiar to the left, huh Barney) snipe and weasel until they can develope a nuclear weapon. All hell will break loose then. Assholes like Barney, Sam and nogo postal and the rest of the democrats will have major responsiblity. Something they woefully lack.

Barney, Sam, Nogo Postal, S... (Below threshold)
Wiley T. Stoner:

Barney, Sam, Nogo Postal, STFU. You asshats do not know what you are talking about. Idiots like you and the lies you spread is the reason Iran is acting the way it does, because that fucking coward Carter didn't have the balls to back an ally. They will push until we shove back and shove back hard. They will lies (something familiar to the left, huh Barney) snipe and weasel until they can develope a nuclear weapon. All hell will break loose then. Assholes like Barney, Sam and nogo postal and the rest of the democrats will have major responsiblity. Something they woefully lack.

WeeWillyWanker:Wik... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

WeeWillyWanker:

Wiki:
During Khatami's presidency, Iran's foreign policy had entered into a new phase; moving from confrontation to conciliation. Khatami's worldview and his notion of foreign policy was different from his predecessors'. In Khatami's notion of foreign policy, there was no "clash of civilizations", he favours a "dialogue among civilizations". The detente policy of Khatami had created a congenial atmosphere for expanding relations with the world, and its relations with the major powers (Iran's) was improving. Relations with the US alone were still marred by mutual suspicion and distrust. During Khatami's two terms, Tehran was increasingly making efforts to play a greater role in the Persian Gulf region and beyond.

British Sailor Admits They ... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

British Sailor Admits They were Trespassing

Leading Seaman Turney, 26, said they had been seized in the Gulf because "obviously we trespassed" in Iranian waters - something the UK disputes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6503657.stm

"Barney, Sam, Nogo Postal, ... (Below threshold)
Senor Smackdown:

"Barney, Sam, Nogo Postal, STFU. You asshats do not know what you are talking about. Idiots like you and the lies you spread is the reason Iran is acting the way it does, because that fucking coward Carter didn't have the balls to back an ally."

Wiley,

feel free to go fuck yourself and take a history book with you while you do it. That ass clown Reagon is the one who felt free to illegally sell them arms.

Adrian,When Iran hel... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Adrian,
When Iran held US citizens hostage, they tried to make them admit on camera that they were all spies. They hung them from their elbows, derpived them of sleep, fired guns next to them to make them think other hostages were shot for non-compliance etc.
Anything from Iranian state TV is suspect.
I'll put the GPS logs and satelite evidence the UK has against Iranian propaganda, and bet that history shows the UK's to be the accurate account

3) Are there any alterna... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

3) Are there any alternatives to the situation other than capitulating to Iran (by withdrawing from Iraq and letting them have their way in that nation) or massive military strikes to make the price of their actions too high to continue?

Yes, there is an alternative that will send a resounding message to Tehran, a la how we dealt with German Werewolves at the end of WWII. Any Iranian found inside Iraq funding, training or otherwise assisting the insurgency or militias, shall not be arrested and taken to jail but summarily shot in the head on the spot, his/her body taken to the Iranian border and dumped in front of Iranian border guards with notes pinned their bodies that read "stay the fuck out of Iraq, Mammoud."

And no, I'm not joking. You don't win a war by being a nice guy; you win wars by being a bigger bastard than the other bastard. Apologies to Gen. Patton for the way we've dealth with this one.

God damn, that retard ST... (Below threshold)
Brian:

God damn, that retard STILL thinks vapid names like BushCo are "witty." How pathetic.

I assume that sentiment also applies to other names often used on here, such as "Clinton Crime Family", "BJ Clinton", "Peeeloshi", "Algore", "Dhimmi Carter", ....

Any Iranian found ... (Below threshold)
Publicus:
Any Iranian found inside Iraq funding, training or otherwise assisting the insurgency or militias, shall not be arrested and taken to jail but summarily shot in the head on the spot, his/her body taken to the Iranian border and dumped in front of Iranian border guards with notes pinned their bodies that read "stay the fuck out of Iraq, Mammoud."

Won't do a thing. Mammoud doesn't give a damn about Iranians dead any more than Bush cares about Americans dead. Thugs enjoy their wars. It makes them think that they're men.

WildWillie's got the right ... (Below threshold)
Cousin Dave:

WildWillie's got the right idea. Put the screws to the mullahs. Put the country under seige. They can't support themselves without imports of food and gasoline. Arm the counter-revolutionary groups. And stir up trouble for the external groups that Iraq funds, like Hezbollah (have Israel take some pot shots at them, just enough to keep them busy). And then start taking on their coastal and border defenses. Sink Iranian ships. Bomb their anti-aircraft emplacements. Declare the country a no-fly zone and engage anything that flies in Iran with standoff weapons.

Cousin Dave,I think ... (Below threshold)
Allen:

Cousin Dave,
I think you hit the nail on that one. If we did that, how long do you think Iran would last. Two weeks at most is my guess. Also any gathering of military vehicles, take out. Hit to hit the stealth bombers at night.

1) long ago2) long... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

1) long ago

2) long ago

3) Something that should have been started in 2004, was to appeal to Iranian dissidents. There was a suggestion to operate a Radio Free Iran. Scuttle butt was that the State Department shot it down. It's too late for that now. To save Iraq, we must handle Iran on some level. All out war, not necessarily but not ruled out.

From Drudge so you know it ... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

From Drudge so you know it must be true:

MOSCOW, March 27 (RIA Novosti) - Russian military intelligence services are reporting a flurry of activity by U.S. Armed Forces near Iran's borders, a high-ranking security source said Tuesday.

The current conflict can be... (Below threshold)
stan25:

The current conflict can be traced back to the leftists favorite ex-president, Jimmy Carter. If he had told the Ayatollahs to stuff it and nuked them back when the hostages were taken, there would be no trouble with them now. Just as Alexander the Great did when he kicked the Persians ass a long time ago, we should do the same thing again. If the lefties like BarneyG2000, Lee and others make a fuss, send them over there as cannon fodder.

"cannon fodder."Th... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"cannon fodder."

The truthiest Bushiest EVER.

That Iran has been working ... (Below threshold)

That Iran has been working to destabilize Iraq is no surprise, despite the fact that the usual suspects have been known to go on about how the Shiite majority in Iraq were the natural allies of the Iranian theocracy. Oh no! they would explain, Al Qaida is Sunni and Iran is Shiite, they would *never* work together! But they will and do work toward the same end because both their separate goals are harmed by a peaceful and stable Iraq.

Interesting, too, how the comments have gone. *We* passed up a chance with Iran? What about the chances they passed up over the years? Why can't they be an all grown up nation and be responsible for their own choices? Do we really *need* to infantisize other nations and other people so they are all excused for anything they do?

We need a draft? What the heck for other than to lend some sort of magical nobility to the effort? I can't explain what about a draft makes everything better, it's magic, but it seems to be the new standard for defining a moral war.

Nukes? Not really. Ground forces and occupation? Does that even make sense? Even if we had a whole other ground army ready to go, does that even make sense? What strategic or tactical goal in *Iran* can be met with ground forces?


The truthiest Bushiest COMM... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

The truthiest Bushiest COMMENT EVER.

Damn! My zing went right out the window!

Synova-Do we re... (Below threshold)
Rory:

Synova-

Do we really *need* to infantisize other nations and other people

Yes why else did Rosie erh, Iran grab the donut-I mean the Brits?

It's all Jack Kennedy's fault for going to Berlin and declaring Ich bein ein Berliner!-
I am a jelly donut!

I assume that sentiment ... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

I assume that sentiment also applies to other names often used on here, such as "Clinton Crime Family", "BJ Clinton", "Peeeloshi", "Algore", "Dhimmi Carter", ....

Count the number of those in this thread. Now count the number of Bushie, BushCo, etc in this thread. Gives you an idea of the various posters mental capacity (or lack thereof).

Oh ya Jay it's over.<... (Below threshold)
Rory:

Oh ya Jay it's over.

the military and thier commander were abandoned for the likes of Michelle malkin -who no one here ver questions.

She is the Blogosphere Queen! Thanks a million. Republicans got the vapors and scattered which ever way she told them too. Over some relatively silly stuff.

But you know the military was sacrificed so that Conservatives could wait for the Virgin Party...

On the same level of what the Dems are doing now for pork.

Oh typos.The milit... (Below threshold)
Rory:

Oh typos.

The military and ^their^ commander were abandoned for the likes of Michelle Malkin -who no one here ever questions.

Rory, sounds like you got a... (Below threshold)

Rory, sounds like you got a fixation going. I don't recall the last time I cited Malkin for much of anything.

J.

"Won't do a thing. Mammoud ... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

"Won't do a thing. Mammoud doesn't give a damn about Iranians dead any more than Bush cares about Americans dead. Thugs enjoy their wars. It makes them think that they're men."

Filed under "on the other side."

Well cite the one time you ... (Below threshold)
Rory:

Well cite the one time you disagreed with her?

Look the Democrats are the party of feelings-emotion-and that leads to irrationality.

The Republicans like to get angry.-with the same result. Anger which got the Republicans to reset their priorities.

Michelle gave "Conservatives" alot of excuses to stop defending the war .

Are you really surprised now by the results?

Also you mention Michelle Malkin a heck of a lot more than I do.

I don't think you are going to find more than a handful of comments made by me in the past about Michelle Malkin.

Let's see what the Democratic House does for Republicans that decided immigration was more important.

Let's see how they win that fight for you.

Oh and that incumbency factor-stay at home Conservatives played with fire-

It's going to leave a mark for a long , long time.


I don't know why this parti... (Below threshold)

I don't know why this particular conversation has turned to a discussion about Michelle Malkin, Rory, but if you want an example of where I disagreed with her, one recent one would be the Ann Counter/C-PAC incident. Another one would be on gay marriage.

But this isn't about Michelle Malkin, whose opinions on matters matter not one whit to what I write or think. And I will no longer indulge your little attempt to make the conversation suit your idiosyncrasies and fixations. This is about Iran and its acts of war against my nation, and my nation's allies.

I take those things very seriously. Apparently, you don't. Consequently, I don't take you very seriously, either.

J.

Other side? Maybe. But I'... (Below threshold)

Other side? Maybe. But I'm not sure which other side that is. Maybe the other side of the rainbow where caring about the troops means never putting them in harms way.

Sort of like Carter cared about the troops after Delta-force or whoever it was, crashed in the Iranian desert with all dead. Or like Clinton cared about the "Blackhawk Down" troops who died.

In any case, war carried on by Thugs is reassuring because the whole reason for conflict can be laid on these irrational people. Bush is a thug who likes his wars. If this is true, then there is no enemy, no reason to fight. Certainly no reason to risk the lives of our soldiers.

Everything can be focused in this one place. If Bush goes away it's all over. No threat to the US. No more dead Americans.

Jay-I have a degre... (Below threshold)
Rory:

Jay-

I have a degree in International Relations with a strong emphasis in Military History. I studied under the miltary historian that was voted President of their association for the past five years.

He taught at all the military academies-and would refer other students who needed "help" to me.

So your instincts are wrong-I do understand you looking for an excuse to retreat.

Iran has not yet openly eng... (Below threshold)
Mark:

Iran has not yet openly engaged the US or Iraq. Therefore only strategic bombing is in order. If they would happen to declare war with the US than indiscriminate bombing is in order - to hell with helping them form a new government like we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Rory, no matter your "day j... (Below threshold)

Rory, no matter your "day job" your comments have been... random. I can't follow them. I can't even imagine what point you're trying to make about Malkin. It's almost like hearing one side only of a phone call. Without giving us some context what you've said doesn't make any sense.

1. 11/4/79 - U.S. embassy t... (Below threshold)
Anon Y. Mous:

1. 11/4/79 - U.S. embassy takeover.
2. 2/20/06 - The duly-elected government of Iraq takes power.
3. I think Newt's got the right idea:


I think there are two very simple steps that should be taken. The first is to use a covert operation, or a special forces operation to knock out the only gasoline producing refinery in Iran. There's only one. And the second is to simply intercede by Naval force, and block any tankers from bringing gasoline to Iran
...
And say to the Iranians, you know, you can keep the sailors as long as you want, but in about 30 days, everybody in your country will be walking.


The truthiest Bushiest C... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

The truthiest Bushiest COMMENT EVER.
Damn! My zing went right out the window

Go after it then...head first.

She[Malkin] is the Blogo... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

She[Malkin] is the Blogosphere Queen!

I thought St. Andrew of the Perpetually Gobsmacked Heart held that title.

I have a degree in Inter... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

I have a degree in International Relations with a strong emphasis in Military History. I studied under the miltary historian that was voted President of their association for the past five years.

We don't care if you have a degree in Nuclear Physics with a strong emphasis in Culinary Arts, this topic has nothing to do with Malkin, we are talking about IRAN.

So, stop trying to change the topic.

Big deal, Rory. I have five... (Below threshold)

Big deal, Rory. I have five PhDs. I also have three Medals of Honor, am a triple amputee, and veteran of four wars, and I say you're full of crap.

Go ahead, Rory. Prove me wrong.

In case you miss the point, Rory, the hyperbole is to show you just how meaningless your claimed credentials are. Yahoo Magazine once ran a cover that said "on the internet, no one knows you're a dog." The whole point is that nobody here is willing or interested in your credentials, only what you can say and prove about the subject matter. "You ought to believe me, because I'm an expert" is seen -- and rightfully so -- as a form of laziness so you don't have to show why you might be right.

Yeah, on paper, you might outclass me by a country mile or more. I but I routinely lay out what I think and why. I don't think I've ever made any sweeping pronouncements and just expected people to take my word on things. I've always backed them up with evidence, with arguments, with supporting facts. I might be wrong, but I "show my work."

You don't seem to want to do that. You want to waltz in here, divert the discussion into areas where you think you can dominate, and attempt to beat us about the head and shoulders with your voluminous sheepskins.

Sorry, those ain't the rules around here. And as one of the main people in charge of those rules, I can assure you they ain't changing any time soon.

(Another of the rules is that I can use the non-word "ain't" whenever I want to make a point of using a casual, informal tone.)

With all that out of the way, Rory, would you care to share your highly-qualified expertise and consider Iran's actions since 1979 tantamount to acts of war against the United States and our allies? And how would you propose getting them to stop?

You might have missed it, but that was the original topic here. Michelle Malkin wasn't part of that until you brought her in to it -- for reasons that only make sense to you. And even that's being a bit presumptuous.

J.

1. 19792. The first ... (Below threshold)
LenS:

1. 1979
2. The first minute after the Iraqi elections ended.
3. Yes, it's time to get a ROI on our ICBM's as a fitting end to Persia in human history.

Iran only has one gasoline ... (Below threshold)

Iran only has one gasoline refinery? What were those people thinking! That's really bizarre, and likely explains a whole lot.

Totten was talking about Kurdistan planning to build both a refinery and electric generating plants so that they are no longer hampered by the politics in Baghdad and it was like a big *DUH*. But I figured, well, Saddam was actively trying to suppress the Kurds (and gas them and run children's prisons and what not) so it made sense that they were kept dependent.

Has NO ONE in the middle east seen fit to process and supply their own energy needs?

I have a Ph.D. in mixology,... (Below threshold)
mantis:

I have a Ph.D. in mixology, a gold house and a rocket car.

I was a truck driver for 40... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

I was a truck driver for 40 years and can prove it. Just look at the drug store sales slips for PrepH. Oh by the way Rory, PrepH makes it alot easier for you to remove Jay's foot from your ass.

James Cloninger, A... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

James Cloninger,

Are you the Anglican that let me in on the [enter=paragraph] function? I think so.

Thanks, if you are. (much better than [...])

jhow66 typed: "I was a truc... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

jhow66 typed: "I was a truck driver for 40 years and can prove it. Just look at the drug store sales slips for PrepH."

Hell, old man! That's funny! (I can die now.)

jhow, you know truck drivin... (Below threshold)
strongMan:

jhow, you know truck driving wasn't the real reason you bought all the prep h. we all know what you do in the men's room on saturday night.




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