If we persist with the historical lie that is the mainstream version of Vietnam, then we'll continue to lose wars. We must change the paradigm, or die trying. It really is that simple.
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Thank God for one sensible liberal. I'd be happy to have him around--common sense is always an attractive thing, but especially in a liberal.

How do you explain the fact that by far most of the troops in Iraq and most of the Iraqis, think we should leave? As a matter of fact, not only do the Saudis think the war is wronge, so does Iraqi President Jalal Talaban!

What version of the struggle in Iraq are you getting, Russ?
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Kim,
The "version" I'm getting is as close to the truth as one can try.

Russ, your "Truth" sounds more like theory, unless you can back up what you say with a few credible facts.

Most of the polls I've seen actually analyzed in detail show that Iraqis do not want us out now because of the blood bath that would ensue. Where are all the angry Iraqis with their banners and signs demanding we leave? I must have missed that.

And our troops, the last poll I saw, believe in the mission.

Russ, sometimes your Truth may not comport with Reality.

Be easy on Russ folks, in the liberal world it's all relative. There is no right and wrong, no good and evil (except where conservatives are concerned), and you just sift through the polls until you find one who's results you like. If you can't find one, then use you FEELINGS to guide you.....and then lie about it because (to quote Dan Rather) you KNOW it to be true.

Mitchell,
The poll I find took place in Feb. 28, pretty recent as things go, and it was done by Zogby. But there is more... I keep reading things about our troops and their families under extreme stress.
As far as the Iraqis, the president of Iraq said that yesterday.

USA Today has a poll, Feb. 28-Mar,5 , which indicates some 80+ Iraqis want the US out. I suppose it will do no good to say it but I sure do believe in "right and Wrong."

Kim, the dimmers live by the pols. They have no internal convictions, just emotions. If they had polling during the civil war and WWII the dimmers would have made sure we still had slavery and we would all be speaking German. Pathetic. ww

Most of the polls I've seen actually analyzed in detail show that Iraqis do not want us out now because of the blood bath that would ensue.

How clueless can you be Mitchell? Every poll I've ever seen says a majority of Iraqis want us out and they approve of attacks on US forces. Just google it and you will see. Iraqis are no different than any other Muslims in the world, they all hate America because of what Bush has done.

Where are all the angry Iraqis with their banners and signs demanding we leave? I must have missed that.

Maybe they've got more pressing issues to worry about...like not getting killed in the country's bloody civil war that this stupid surge cannot possibly contain.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The Iraqi government raised the death toll on Saturday from a truck bomb in the town of Tal Afar to 152, making it the deadliest single bombing of the four-year-old war. Interior Ministry spokesman Brigadier Abdul Kareem Khalaf said 347 people were wounded in Tuesday's attack on a Shi'ite area. There was another truck bomb in the mixed northwestern town on Tuesday, but it was small.

WildWillie,
When our country was first coming into being, one vote decided we would use English as our national language, German language was the other one. Yet today, how many languages are on ballots, gov't publicans, etc.

I don't think anyone has a good answer about Iraq, but pulling out now would be wrong. The bleeding hearts fail to realize how long it took the allies, after WWII to rebuild the shattered countries that the war caused. We dismantled a country, weather or not it was right or wrong is not the question, so now we have to help the Iraq people rebuild.

Yes mistakes were made, and will be continued to be made, but overall, we need to stay there so the Iraqis can have a chance to rebuild, and have their own government, not one that Bush wants, but one the Iraqis want.

And yes, oversight is needed to insure that this is done. Yet today, neither the Demo's or Repug's have came up with a decent plan to finish the job. So all this BS is about getting re-elected. And we, the American people are the ones getting screwed by our elected employees.

Russ, I live right in the middle of a liberal cesspool. Can't find one person that wants us to lose and give up. Might explain why many people answering the phone only to hung up on when they are asked "what are you registered to vote as" and they respond "Republican".

Keep up the Democrat perpetual fraud Russ, maybe they will make you leader of a new Democrat Caucus.

"Maybe they've got more pressing issues to worry about...like not getting killed in the country's bloody civil war that this stupid surge cannot possibly contain."

No stupid, you poor emotional nitwit. The only civil war is the one up you arse. Even the majority of Iraqi's say there is no civil war yet your stupid leaders continue to lie and betray the United States of America for their own selfish and evil political gains.

As far as the death toll on Saturday from a truck bomb in the town of Tal Afar of 152 and 347 wounded, you can add that to the endless list of "When Democrats lie ,more and more people die".
Those people died for democrats political gain period.

So polls are nothing to base reasoned judgments on. Nor the words of Iraqi leaders and servicemen. I think the hate radio we have in our country like Limbaugh, push legitimate debate into extreme polemics that aren't based on facts. We libs don't hate our troops and country but want to fight for what America stands for. We have plenty of work for our troops to do yet in Afghanistan, and other beds of terrorism as they arise. We, as the Russians in Afghanistan, are being bled to death and torn apart at home.

Kim, the dimmers live by the pols. They have no internal convictions, just emotions. If they had polling during the civil war and WWII the dimmers would have made sure we still had slavery and we would all be speaking German. Pathetic. ww

To be fair the democrats were the ones calling for war in WWII. But they had morals and such back then and clear sense of purpose that they seem to have lost.

Taltos,
The democrats are responsible for Vietnam as well. They are just as moral, the extremes just get more attention.

Rob, you're the first, and probably only, person I've heard to hold the Democrats responsible for the deaths from the truck bomb in Tal Afar. By the way wasn't that the same city Bush proclaimed free of terrorists last year? Anyway I'd sure appreciate hearing your logic on this, or some facts, or something.

Don't forget to glove up and wash real good after retrieving the info!

I just love how all the war profiteers will go on and on about how we can't pull out of Iraq now, there's too much money to be made.

Maybe if the U.S. made it illegal to make more than 5% profit during war time this Iraq war would be over in no time.

You proponents of a poll showing the "Iraqis want us out" neglect the context. Do they want us out because in a perfect world, no one wants a foreign power in their country? Perfectly natural and not the same thing as wanting us out now, and at all costs.

Do they want us out immediately? The polls do not say.

Lacking the ability to notice the "nuance" as your boy Kerry used to say, you libs. here lurch into uncontrollable fits of passion without much analysis.

Show me a poll that shows me the Iraqis want us out today, not in a perfect world, with all the carnage that would ensue.

That may be your personal lib. wet dream, but don't read that into the Iraqi mind which you care little about anyway.

Even the American military command and Bush Administration's definition of "victory" in Iraq is a highly subjective and a relative one. Top American military commanders are working within speeded-up time constraints of immediate security plans to stabilize conditions just enough to hand control to largely Iraqi security units, declare some symbolic "victory", then begin a withdrawal of most American troops.

I had certainly hoped that the new security arrangements were improving the violence in Iraq, however insurgents have merely brought car bombings and other violence outside of Baghdad, and Shiite police units responsible for the sectarian murders of many Sunni men are merely reducing their crimes down to 20-30 a day because they are largely busy with American supervised security efforts. The new security plans appear not to be really effectively working as I had hoped that they really were. This is deeply disappointing, however the U.S. must leave Iraq in a more stable security condition before a widespread withdrawal can really take place.

Mitchell,
I agree that the Iraqis should be helped. The US should immediately stop this oil bill they are trying to push through the fragile Malice government and concentrate on securing green zones for the hellhole of Iraqi hospitals. The mission in Iraq turned into a humanitarian one would I think bring in a real coalition of willing nations who don't like instability in the ME. The US could also start bringing home more than just 200 of the millions of Iraqi refugees. I'm sure Mitchell would support that.

Don't like the oil bill, Russ? Is this war for oil not going your way?
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Kim,
I'm afraid I don't get what your point is. You may be shocked to know, I am on your side. I love this country and my concerns are honest.

OK, Russ, I'll be less antagonistic. I don't believe the polls you cite; I think most Iraqis would prefer we stay to referee the remaining tensions from Saddam's misrule, but I do believe all the parties in Iraq expect us to leave, at least militarily, eventually. I think our volunteer military is dedicated to the project and sadly underpaid. I think it is in our interest that Iraq is stabilized. And I bless Jerome K. Jerome.
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Russ, I support some of that, I think--not sure about what you mean by some of your post.

The oil bill I suppose is a reference to splitting oil revenues among sunni, shia, and kurds. I think that has to be done, and is proceeding in what has sounded so far to be equitable. Not sure what your point is, or if you have a point there.

Don't you think we've asked other nations to help? Do you recall us asking for post-invasion relief, and the French promised about 25 troops for some innocuous purpose, and then withdrew the offer, as I recall. Where do you see the interest from these countries? Brainstorm-bullshitting is not a policy, Russ.

Kim,
I'm glad we can both agree on J.K.J. at least. : ) As for being antagonistic, I know its hard to be calm with such issues, anyway thanks.

Mitchell,
Here is a link to what I was getting at.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/13/opinion/edjuhasz.php

You may be right about other nations not wanting to help, but as things seam to be getting out of hand they may have second thoughts.

Russ, I'm sorry to say your link is to a hopelessly biased article by a you fill in the blank polemicist.
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Did you see the author also wrote a book about how Bush is taking over the world one country's economy at a time?

Many disappointed Marxists have segued to being against 'corporations' as the bogeyman of today. They look to Mussolini's Italy for the model of how they look upon the right and capitalism.

Poor sods. And all the rest of you who still wish that Marx's perversions of Hegel were true.
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Yes, liberal hearthrob Revolutionary Hugo Chavez is convinced Bush is taking over everything, and may be plotting Chavez's assassination. Ditto, Correa, Morales. Ortega is up at bat but has not pronounced on the Evil Yanqi as yet.

It really sucks when your Truth (Marxism) is disrupted by Reality. Makes you want to run some AK-47's some place, or something.