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"Hey, whatever happened to ol' what's-his-face?"

Over the past couple of months, I've been trying an experiment behind the scenes -- so far behind the scenes, I haven't told anyone, not even my fellow bloggers, about it. It's been on dealing with the falling level of discourse on this site.

In the past, I've been pretty light with Olaf's Troll Hammer of banning. I've swung it only a few times, when the offense to my sensibilities was so great that I saw no other alternative. I fretted about it beforehand, publicly announced it, and expressed my regrets. That seemed to work in the short term, but the problem kept coming back -- and usually worse.

So shortly after the beginning of the year, I started trying a new approach. Every now and then some commenter would say something that just went too far. I'd do a cursory review of their more recent comments -- the last 50 or so, usually -- and see if the one that caught my attention was an aberration, or an exemplar.

If it was the former, I'd let it slide. But if it was the latter, Olaf's Hammer would be set aside for the garrotte. A few mouse clicks, and that IP would never post here again. No fuss, no public spectacle, no massive discussion about the commenter's relative merits -- they just disappeared into the aether.

So if anyone was wondering what happened to Hugh, spurwing plover, dalleceneri, aRepukelican, and a couple of others, there's your answer.

So, why am I mentioning this? Like I said, it was an experiment. Banning people quietly didn't seem to do any good. Banning them publicly wasn't much better. So here's Phase III of Operation Mind Your Manners: a public statement asking people to act more civilly -- with a few figurative heads on pikes to demonstrate resolve.

This is an equal-opportunity measure. While the detractors of this site have been disproportionately represented, it has not been totally one-sided. And I've noticed that a few of our more boisterous backers have defended their actions as saying things like "the authors haven't asked me to tone it down, so I won't." (Yes, jhow, I'm talking to you.)

They can't say that any more, because now I am publicly. Knock it off, jhow, scrapiron, Rob LA Ca., and a couple of others who know who they are.

I started at one point coming up with a set of rules, but was persuaded that it was more work that it was worth. Instead, I'm going to just say a few things that ought to be clear to most people:

  • Don't be a dick.
  • Don't type things that you wouldn't say to someone's face -- especially if they were big enough to kick your ass.
  • Repeated personal attacks against the authors here are a surefire way to get their attention -- but it won't be the kind you like. Go after articles, positions, and statements all you like; we're grownups, we can take it. But get too personal (dalleceneri went way, way beyond the pale in this category), and we'll show you the door. Think "Roadhouse."

Some time ago, Kevin Aylward (he's the guy what owns this whole shebang) entrusted me with the authority to manage this page. Writing, editing, and policing are all part and parcel of it. At the time, he gave me no specific instructions, guidelines, or rules -- essentially he said "do what you think is best." This might not be "best," but it's the least worst I can find.

There will be some who don't like this one bit. They're welcome to go to other blogs, start their own, or even sign up for the Wizbang Bomb Squad and write there. But they will not be welcome on the main page.

To steal a line I recently discovered, "The ones who stay will make this a better community, and so will the ones who leave."


Comments (72)

Blood for Odin!(ha... (Below threshold)
Son Of The Godfather:

Blood for Odin!

(had to see if I could sneak it in... not directed to anybody of course)

Jay the tough guy.... (Below threshold)
jeff:

Jay the tough guy.

Don't type things that you wouldn't say to someone's face -- especially if they were big enough to kick your ass. I'm scared.

and we'll show you the door. Think "Roadhouse."
I'm double scared. Best movie ever though.

Thanks for the warning Jay.... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Thanks for the warning Jay. Was waiting on it because I just could not stand to sit by and listen to some of the crap that is put out as truth. I am no scholar by any stretch (72 year old retired truck driver) and am not PC savy. But I do have a little common sense which seems lost on alot of the posters here (both sides). If I could express myself as you can, I would be able to get my point across better but as you can tell I am no writer. So here is one poster that will abide by your rules (as I said all along).Shore going to miss old p'p' tho. LOL

Did someone say <a href="ht... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Did someone say Road House?

Its BUSH'S fault....<... (Below threshold)
Joe:

Its BUSH'S fault....

I just had to say it.

And to quote Jay here: "To steal a line I recently discovered, "The ones who stay will make this a better community, and so will the ones who leave.""

I love it. Best laugh I've had since I signed on at 5:45am this morning

Jay,Thank you, Thank... (Below threshold)
Grace:

Jay,
Thank you, Thank you. I have been a loonnggg time lurker and have never posted before. As I am still on dial-up (aagghh - high speed is still not available where I live!) everything takes a while to down-load. The moving of comments out of the main body was a pain and as the comments were so often vile, not worth the trouble.
I would not want nasty talk in my home and I don't appreciate reading it. I have always thought this site was great for the ideas presented on both sides. Hoping for even more thoughtful and civil discourse.

LOL, thanks mantis! In thi... (Below threshold)

LOL, thanks mantis! In this case, Jay is the "cooler". Everybody else, "be nice".

i like it, jay's the "coole... (Below threshold)
jab:

i like it, jay's the "cooler".

"I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice. "

JT, I am certainly glad you... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

JT, I am certainly glad you did this and will continue. This is by far my favorite stop in the mornings, noon and evening. Lately, I have been thinking of taking you out of my line up. Too much personal hate. It deflates a person. Anyway, I have always tried not to take the bait from the antagonizers. I just got back from a run to Lowes and I was actuallyt thinking how great it would be for someone at Wizbang to post about how civility has gone away from our discourse. Also why people think it has gone away. Anyway, food for thought. ww

Sometimes I agree with what... (Below threshold)
suhnami:

Sometimes I agree with what's posted here, sometimes I don't. What does shock me is the nastiness on both sides that have been spewed ( which of course can pale in comparison to other threads in the 'verse). Really though, even if you completely disagree with someone here, and wonder how they get through life they are (usually) still a fellow American, so a little mutual respect is never hurtful. Once I see a post from someone wishing for the death of others they disagree with I get a little concerned.

Jay are you going to do some throat ripping like Dalton ("I thought you'd be taller")? I tried to get my girlfriend to watch Road House a few weeks ago and we didn't even make it to that scene. Somehow that movie isn't nearly as 'cool' as it was 15 years ago. Sam Elliot still rules. Coolest voice ever.

Hurrah! While I appreciate... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

Hurrah! While I appreciate the laissez faire approach that Wizbang has taken on comments, when the tone of discourse reaches the depth that it has recently it's worthless.

Thomas Sowell recently posted an article labeled 'What Has Happened To Talk Shows?'. In it, he laments that there's no real interaction, no real exchange of ideas. The TV talk shows tend to be an exchange of 'pre-packaged' talking points with people talking past one another.

It's almost a sports-fan mentality (my team vs your team) instead of my ideas vs. your ideas. What makes it worse is that I truly believe that the country has become more divided on principles than it has ever before. It's much, much more difficult to reconcile policy differences with someone with whom you disagree on principles.

my 0.02...

Jay,Thank you. I wil... (Below threshold)

Jay,
Thank you. I will now put Wizbang back on my frequent reading list.

Jay's like the guy who swee... (Below threshold)

Jay's like the guy who sweeps up the manure after the circus parade: nobody's there to watch him do his job, but everyone is darned glad he did it!

Thanks, man!

Hurray!While I sti... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

Hurray!

While I still enjoy reading Wizbang, the comment sections had so often become a cesspool of hate and vitriol from the left (and to a MUCH lesser extent, the right) that I stopped reading the comments altogether most of the time. It just wasn't worth the increase in my blood pressure or the decrease in my IQ from having read what most of the lefty commenters had to say.

I sure hope this helps in the long run.

Is this what happened to ol... (Below threshold)
914:

Is this what happened to ole whats His face LEE?

Wade Garrett: Damn that hurt's dont it!

So many posts, so little na... (Below threshold)
nell:

So many posts, so little nastiness.
I appreciate it, too.

Thanks, Jay. I won't get i... (Below threshold)
blackcat77:

Thanks, Jay. I won't get into any discussions which have descended into name-calling because there's simply nothing to gain and everything -- especially your temper -- to lose.

Hopefully this will help...... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Hopefully this will help...it's difficult for even civil people to remain civil when faced with some of the comments here.

I hear ya loud and clear.... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

I hear ya loud and clear.

Thanks Jay. I'll be spendin... (Below threshold)
Who's John Galt?:

Thanks Jay. I'll be spending more time here.

Thank you, thank you, thank... (Below threshold)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Wizbang will be a much more enjoyable and profitable stop.

JayTea:Spea... (Below threshold)
langtry:

JayTea:

Speaking of beyond the pale posters: from the previous post ("Ahmenajad Pardons 15 Sailors"), BryanD writes ...

"WINSTON Churchill coined the term "livebait" and was head of the Admiralty when the Lusitania sank. In-service outrage forced him to switch over to fucking up Army plans. (classic rich kid, see?) Ever hear of Gallipoli?"

Shouldn't dropping the "F Bomb" be worth at least a warning, if not banination??????

We can't swear now?... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

We can't swear now?

The 2 people I work ... (Below threshold)
Gianni:


The 2 people I work with who introduced me to this site(and some they know) no longer come here because of the dust the trolls kick up.

As they say, the 'right' always allows the left to speak, and they mostly stir up things. (The sites on the left, as we know, just refuses to allow the right to comment, and ban them.)

Maybe this will make this site more informative, and less disruptive, if a few(or a few more) get the boot.

What I always find interesting is that libbies just seem to ignore any thread that isnt controversial. The primary trolls seem to have ignored this one also.

Coincidence?

They can't say that any ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

They can't say that any more, because now I am publicly.

Well done, Jay.

mantis, Jay,I've a... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

mantis, Jay,

I've always prefered this Roadhouse moment.

Your flagrant use of common... (Below threshold)

Your flagrant use of common sense frightens me.

Langtry: ""loving' up Army ... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

Langtry: ""loving' up Army plans" doesn't have the same Umph!

Well done. I was about to ... (Below threshold)
Corky Boyd:

Well done. I was about to write you about my feelings, but you beat me to the punch. More than one blog site has been ruined by trolls, and that seems to be their intent.

This is a great site, especially you Jay. I don't know how you write so well about so much. Comments are an important aspect and it allows many aspiring bloggers to get their feet wet. When trolls are allowed to dominate and comments devolve into personal attacks, readers stop reading and commenters won't comment.

Wizbang will continue to be at the top of my list.

Well done Jay!... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

Well done Jay!

bryanD,Without the... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

bryanD,

Without the use of the F bomb, there's still at least a dozen other adjectives you could have used in that situation that would still get your point across.

It might even make you appear more intelligent.

Jay, you ******-******* ***... (Below threshold)

Jay, you ******-******* ****-******! How ****** dare you ******* try to limit my ******-******* God-given 1st ******* Amendment Right to spew **** where the **** ever I ****** please and when the **** ever I please! I'm calling the ******* ACLU you piece of **** Nazi ******* ****-******!

Thanks Jay, I decline to po... (Below threshold)
MikeNC:

Thanks Jay, I decline to post most of the time because I do not have time to get in a peeing contest with people who do not want to have a civil discussion. I hope this helps.

By the way, I think that Hugh now posts on another blog I read. He is just as much of a jerk there. Hopefully his time there will be short.

Don't type things that y... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Don't type things that you wouldn't say to someone's face -- especially if they were big enough to kick your ass.

We're--and yes, I include myself on this, too--all so brave behind a computer screen.

...and we'll show you the door. Think "Roadhouse."

Hmm, how about something more Marcellus Wallace-like?

I jest, of course...

Long, long over due!<... (Below threshold)
marc:

Long, long over due!

Rob LA Ca.

I hear ya loud and clear.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I have to say the mudslingi... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

I have to say the mudslinging comes from both sides.

However, to me, the more irritating aspect are those who will resort to whatever argument is handy no matter how good or bad it is. If a discussion goes beyond the 1st & 2nd tier talking points, they make crap up. They tend to come mostly from the liberal or Democrat side of the isle.

They are basically advocates and not here for genuine discussion.

Well, atleast they won't be able to resort to mudslinging when they start losing an arguement. But the insincerity in discussing issues and desire to sour this site will still be there.

Don't know if s/he got him/... (Below threshold)

Don't know if s/he got him/herself banned, but it appears that 'civil behavior' found itself a new home at the Jawa Report where it can call people names by preceding the word "American" with every negative adjective in the dictionary.

These trolls have a tendency to wear out their welcome in one place then just move on to befoul the next. And there are comments by some who consider themselves on the right here that I am inclined to just skip over as well because they really have nothing to contribute.

As one who is on the receiv... (Below threshold)
ChrisO:

As one who is on the receiving end of many verbal attacks, I would definitely take issue with the notion that the vast majority of the vitriol comes from the left. Most of you folks tend to agree with the people doing the attacking, so it doesn't seem as bad to you. But I know if I post a reasoned argument, with a few facts to back me up, at least half of the responses will be extremely nasty. I appreciate the effort to clean things up, but I still can't believe it's taken this long to address some of the commenters, particularly scrapiron, who posts very explicit violent comments with nary a peep from anyone.

There are left wing commenters whose nastiness embarrasses me, but Lee is not one of them. He is also not a troll. You may think he's contrarian and makes stupid comments. But he argues his point and returns to threads to defend his point. What exactly do you people think a troll is, anyway? Becaue the term seems to be applied to anyone you disagree with. I do know what you mean about left wing sites not allowing comments, however. I was just reading something about that in Michelle Malkin's comments section.

In my life away from readin... (Below threshold)
John F Not Kerry:

In my life away from reading and commenting on websites, I find that most people I disagree with are fairly nice about it. And for those who aren't I just smile and walk away. Thank you Jay for your writing and editing. I certainly don't agree with you on everything (even being on the same "side"), but I will allow you your opinions, whether I think the premises you base them on are wrong or not. Keep up the good work!

Finally, some rules. I'd go... (Below threshold)
Buckeye:

Finally, some rules. I'd gotten so I looked to see the Blogger's name before I read the comment. Then my visits became more and more infrequent. You're back on my favorites list. Thank you.

ChrisO,Libbies pr... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

ChrisO,

Libbies preach tolerance, SELDOM practice it. Can anyone deny WB is way more tolerant than any of the major leftist websites?

Libbies claim to care about soldiers, yet few spoke up to condemn the burning of a soldier in effigy a few weeks back. Libbies claim to care about life, yet, few speak out to protect the innocent unborn, or to condemn all of the murders in the (D) cities.

Libbies just seem live by the double standard, I think its a prerequisite to become a (D).

Geez, so many examples Id wear the letters off of my keyboard, but, lets just use William Jefferson, Dan Sutton, and Diane Feinstein as examples to start.

There are some great writers here, and some great posters, but the trolls who are missing so far today are the ones who stir up a shi** storm many other times. Thats their right, I guess, but I just believe those who come here to disagree are just lonely hateful people who get attention no where else.

I have read this blog since... (Below threshold)
MichaelC:

I have read this blog since the summer preceding the '04 elections. Never had a lot to say but the daily give and take here has always stimulated my mind and given me much to think about. Over the last year I have watched dejectedly from the sidelines as the natural inclusiveness of the conservative character was abused by the barbarians whose presence was accepted far past the time when they should have been thrown from the ramparts.

I have a memory of the blog Balloon Juice succumbing to this nasty process whereby the blog is slowly subsumed by the wretched blatherings of those who have no intention of sharing a vision, only the bile to attempt destroying their betters.

Thank you very much Jay for a long overdue action. As you can see by the comments so far, many voices heretofore unheard here have been waiting for this day. I'm so glad that it arrived.

I was a criminal investigat... (Below threshold)
Jim in Texas:

I was a criminal investigator for 28 years and I use to teach rookie investigators how to be efficient and effective. I always told them to treat all suspects the same way they would treat any other stranger until they had some idea of the suspect's involvement in whatever they were investigating. Most people, crooked or not, will respond positively if they are treated with the respect that we all deserve.

I don't know if I was good because of that or an innate sense to avoid saying stupid things at the wrong time.

For instance I use to teach that you NEVER say "take a chance if you're feeling lucky" to a guy who look like he might have been on the World Wildlife Fund's hit list because he clubbed whales to death or brushed his teeth with a chainsaw.

Just commonsense and a strong sense of self preservation

Yeah Jay, Part of the probl... (Below threshold)
Sal Manilla:

Yeah Jay, Part of the problem here is you say some really inflammatory stuff. You bash the state of Massachusetts nonstop. I was born in Mass, raised in NH, and it really pisses me off. People are people, and even if they tend to have a different perspective based on their geographic local, it does not mean they are bad or stupid. They say terrible things about New Hampshireites concerning incest and barnyard animals, in other states, yet that does not make it true. Part of what sets people off is your views, and I agree you are entitled to them, and the way you come off as if conservatism is the God given answer to politics. Over the years, I found it foolish to prescribe to any one set of political beliefs, left or right. But its the way you come off to people who's views differ. You come off as arrogant. Thats not a shot at you this time, its just how it seems. Of course others will agree with all the way, but you have to realize, there are no real answers. I view it as a mark of intelligence to be able to modify one's views as more facts are gained. Case in point, I saw a very good movie the other day on the destruction of the World Trade Towers. This was not some propaganda film by Mike whatever his name is, but was very factual, and asked some very discerning questions. Witness testimony to the fact that there were explosions in the lowest basement floors. Some witnesses were actually injured by debris coming up from the explosions. This does not square with the official version. I hesitate to embrace any sort of conspiracy theory, but the basement explosions either happened or they didn't. Based on demolition expert testimony, if you will, the rate in which the towers fell {10 seconds}was as fast as gravity. This fact alone annihilates the pancaking theory. In pancaking, the resistance of the lower floors would have slowed the fall to 90 seconds. Not to mention jet fuel burns at 1200 degrees and steel melts at 2700 degrees. No I suspected somethig was wrong with the official version all along. You'd think some expert from the government would have pointed all this out already. My point to all this, some of us have differing perspectives, based on what we have learned and our own personal experiences. Its simply the height of arrogance to assume that a different perspective than yours concerning POLITICS is wrong. At least in Massachusetts, when my wife's 85 year old father needs to go to the doctor, and is too frail to safely drive the car and get himself there, its nice to know that instead of having to take a day off from work and drive all the way to Mass, just to take him, the state offers an affordable program, in which they come out and help him into the van and take him round trip. There are no relatives young enough or strong enough to hold up her father in case his legs give out as they do frequently. And my wife being an only child, has the responsibility placed on her. We do what we can, but being out of state, we cannot be there everyday. These are real life problems, and we all must face them someday. Her dads a WWII Vet, and deserves a little respect. Its nice to be idealistic, but real problems need real answers. You can certainly stay in NH if you like that shoestring style of conservatism, but for those who think its tacky, leave them alone, at least they have a state of their own. Simply different approaches to problems. At least in Mass, they try. So, my advice, lighten up a little, and realize no one know everything, no one has all the answers. Be respectful of others. Do that and I think you will see some improvement in attitude among your readers. Respect is a two way street. I like your site for some reason, but its the arrogance that pisses me off. My advice is to tone it down just a bit, if you are really looking to make it a great site. What kind of a site will it be if its just the writers and a bunch of yes men readers? Logical, unemotional debate is where everyone can learn something. Undoubtedly, I will now be attacked.
With regards Jay,
Sal

ChrisO:I do kn... (Below threshold)
marc:

ChrisO:

I do know what you mean about left wing sites not allowing comments, however. I was just reading something about that in Michelle Malkin's comments section.

In case you're unaware, Within 6 weeks (give or take) of Malkin arriving in the blogosphere she was "forced" into closing the comment function due to the hateful, vial racist comments that out numbered those using more reasonable discussions by a VERY wide margin.

Sal ManillaNot... (Below threshold)
marc:

Sal Manilla

Not to mention jet fuel burns at 1200 degrees and steel melts at 2700 degrees.

You do realize the 2700 figure refers to the point at which steel becomes liquid?

And obviously it's beyond your comprehension steel would fail and structural integrity would would be compromised way before reaching that point.

It's all bunk my friend.

Nice balanced approach, JT.... (Below threshold)
Steigen:

Nice balanced approach, JT.

Those on the left, who have always stuck in your craw because of their position on the spectrum, apart from whatever nastiness with which they have posted, are banished and those on the right like jhow, scrapiron and Rob get off w/ warnings. We'll see if ever your darlings get banished. I doubt they can contain their nastiness or hateful excess.

From what I've observed here, you have your own home-grown extreme nasties on the right for whom you have far more tolerance.

Your tolerance has much to do with your political sympathies.

It says something (I'm not ... (Below threshold)

It says something (I'm not certain what) that the comments in this post would devolve to a dispute about whether 9/11 was a right wing conspiracy.

Not to mention jet fuel ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Not to mention jet fuel burns at 1200 degrees and steel melts at 2700 degrees.

You do realize the 2700 figure refers to the point at which steel becomes liquid?

Do you have some other definition of the word "melt?"

(Don't take this criticism to mean I accept any of the conspiracy theories about 9/11. Except for the ones involving gnomes. And I unlike Sal, understand the difference between buckling and melting; steel loses half its strength at 1100 degrees. The fire in the buildings got as high as 1800+)

Actually, having read a cou... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Actually, having read a couple of Sal's comments, if I didn't know better I'd think he was Jay's creation; his version of the stereotypical Bay Stater.

mantis, just for the record... (Below threshold)

mantis, just for the record, I have used two other names on Wizbang besides "Jay Tea." One of them was a brief experiment in an alternate persona for the Bomb Squad that failed miserably; the other is for entering caption contests -- and that's very, very rare.

I'll take your remark as a compliment, though.

J.

You should. But I guess no... (Below threshold)
mantis:

You should. But I guess nobody can do crazy like real crazy.

Steigen: you very well may ... (Below threshold)

Steigen: you very well may be right. But I don't think it's political, it's social and psychological. The ones I have come down hardest are the ones who have gone out of their way to antagonize the authors here, while the ones you cite have assailed fellow commenters. If I'm a little more protective of my colleagues than those less invested in this site, so be it. I can live with that.

Kevin owns this place. I and my fellow authors live here. Everyone else is a guest. Guests who argue with each other are less significant than guests who pick fights with residents.

The fact that the initial topic of the fight was political seems, to me, to be pretty much irrelevant. That I feel greater obligations to look after my colleagues than our guests is the principle in play here.

J.

Jay, Sal called you arrogan... (Below threshold)
Jphn F not Kerry:

Jay, Sal called you arrogant! Are you going to take that? Your views make other people mad! How dare you!

Sal Manilla, it sounds like... (Below threshold)
horse:

Sal Manilla, it sounds like a heavy burden that you are gracious enough to shoulder. That is obviously commendable.

As far as the falling of the building in 10-15 seconds based on video estimates (exact time difficult due to dust); the top of the building would have been in near free fall it's entire trip down to the ground. The structure below it gave out first, so the top had nothing to pancake into. At ~1300 feet that would take about 9.05 seconds, so 10-15 seconds for the top to fall all the way down seems very reasonable.

Others above have addressed the temperature issue.

Peace be with you.

I can enpathize to a degree... (Below threshold)
Steigen:

I can enpathize to a degree with your point above, Jay.

However you seemed to have addresses the deterioration of the comments at Wizbang and the individuals I referred to definitely roll that ball. Those I mentioned are highly unlikely to go after the "family" posters; rather they reserve their venom for just about any contrarion who comments here.

You may have improved the site by banishing the leftist attackers who focus on your colleagues, but you will still have a degenerate site so long as tolerate moronic & substanceless attacks from a certain resident crew anytime a contraion makes a comment.

horse, re: WT... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

horse,

re: WTC twins,
the pancaking begins top to bottom (note the rooftop antenna sinks ahead of the building facade). And the roof-first pancaking proceeds from cold steel to hot steel and then to cold steel again. And at an even rate. With no resistance from the unaffected parts of the stucture at all.
And in 10 (not 15) seconds. Freefall speed.

Check out minute 53 or 54 of Loose Change for a what appears to be thermite detonations leading the collapse like a pace car at Talladega (hi, marc!)

n pancaking, the resista... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

n pancaking, the resistance of the lower floors would have slowed the fall to 90 seconds. Not to mention jet fuel burns at 1200 degrees and steel melts at 2700 degrees.

Nobody is claiming the jet fuel MELTED the supports. They WEAKENED them. And with the weight involved, you weaken the supports on even two floors and you quickly have far more weight than the lower supports can hold and you have a building that collapses on to itself.

You'd think that somebody would have found the alleged bombs LONG ago. Unless the argument is that they planted the bombs shortly after the planes hit and detonated them --- which is fairly implausible.

At least in Massachusetts, when my wife's 85 year old father needs to go to the doctor, and is too frail to safely drive the car and get himself there, its nice to know that instead of having to take a day off from work and drive all the way to Mass, just to take him, the state offers an affordable program, in which they come out and help him into the van and take him round trip. There are no relatives young enough or strong enough to hold up her father in case his legs give out as they do frequently. And my wife being an only child, has the responsibility placed on her. We do what we can, but being out of state, we cannot be there everyday.

And while your concern is valid --- you are not having to pay for the nice treatment, since you don't live in MA. You are asking others to take care of him, rather than having him live with you, for example.

Those on the left, who have always stuck in your craw because of their position on the spectrum, apart from whatever nastiness with which they have posted, are banished and those on the right like jhow, scrapiron and Rob get off w/ warnings.

I've seen him warn them in the past. He warned guys like Puke repeatedly --- dozens of times --- before anything was done.

You may have improved the site by banishing the leftist attackers who focus on your colleagues, but you will still have a degenerate site so long as tolerate moronic & substanceless attacks from a certain resident crew anytime a contraion makes a comment.

I fully agree and if it's the one I think it is, I've asked him to stop doing some of his stuff months ago. There are problems on both sides.

Check out minute 53 or 54 of Loose Change for a what appears to be thermite detonations leading the collapse like a pace car at Talladega (hi, marc!)

Can I stick with Popular Mechanics, who actually have experts in this particular field?
-=Mike

bryan, I am sorry to say th... (Below threshold)
horse:

bryan, I am sorry to say that is incorrect.

Please look at this picture from the popular mechanics article that debunks the myths. (hope I do this link correctly, not experienced in this)

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/0305911-collapse-lg.jpg

It very clearly shows the pancaking first occurring where the damage was created by the aircraft strike, well below the top of the building. The "pancaking" went from the area of damage and proceeded downward. The top floors of the building did not go through a "pancaking" process. The top of the building was in free fall and just crashed at the bottom. As I said, free fall from 1300 feet would take 9 seconds. It matches up.

Finally, there is no way to get an accurate read on the exact timing due to uncertainty of actual end time at the bottom due to obstructing dust, but 10 seconds is on the low end.

"Jetfuel burns at 1200 degr... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

"Jetfuel burns at 1200 degrees"

Um, that is the most misinterpreted statement of the year award.

So if I have a 3000 degree oven and through jet fuel in it, it will be cooled to 1200 degrees? Idiots.

Burning fuel doesn't enforce a temperature. Burning a substance produces heat. If its already hot, it get hotter.

The 1200 degree number is the "open air" burning temperature. Which means if I have a small pan of it in the open outdoors and light it and stick a probe in it, it will be around 1200 degrees.

However, if I put that same pan into a mostly enclosed oven, light it and supply oxygen the oven walls will heat up. The oven walls will go far above 1200 degrees if I supply enough fuel and O2 and time.

Somehow I see a metaphor ab... (Below threshold)
epador:

Somehow I see a metaphor about the collapsing towers and the topic of this thread as it seems to be collapsing upon itself.

Why all the angst about ban... (Below threshold)
Barry:

Why all the angst about banning rude commenters? It's YOUR BLOG! Do as you please, and don't explain or apologize to anyone.

I gave up completely on rea... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

I gave up completely on reading the comments several months ago, and I don't miss it a bit. My blood pressure is better for it.

How the hell did this threa... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

How the hell did this thread turn into a discussion about the World Trade Center?

bryanD, I doubt if you've e... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

bryanD, I doubt if you've ever seen thermite ignite. It doesn't "detonate" - it ignites and melts. There is no explosion involved.


How the hell did this th... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

How the hell did this thread turn into a discussion about the World Trade Center?

Better rhetorical question, Heralder: Has any post here ever NOT morphed into something that's completely off topic.

My my I didn't know I was s... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

My my I didn't know I was so famous. If all the people that don't like what I posted go back and see who I posted against, they will see it was for some idiotic statements or positions. I do not have the "writing" skill or the "google" skill that most here do. So instead of "skill" I use what is called "common sense". If you have common sense you know that there was alot of BS getting spread around from both sides. Just tryed to make those that were idiots look like one (and yes made myself look like one also but that doesn't bother me as I am not trying to impress anyone). Jay warned-I listen-maybe the rest should also. Have good day-going to work on my hobby.

jhow, you should go back an... (Below threshold)
Brian:

jhow, you should go back and look at your old comments yourself. You didn't use any "common sense" to dispel BS. You just called people names. Over and over and over. Your apologies in this thread are perfectly reasonable expressions of your thoughts that require no additional "skill" that you think you don't have. If you were to express your political thoughts as concisely as you talked badly about yourself in this thread, you would be easier to take seriously.

Brian: HUH? Hmmmm and canno... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Brian: HUH? Hmmmm and cannot understand why it was ok for me to be called "names".

Because you indicated that ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Because you indicated that that was the only level on which you desired to communicate with others.

I think the dust from the c... (Below threshold)
epador:

I think the dust from the collapse is getting toxic.

To each his owm--Shakespear... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

To each his owm--Shakespear-verse 3 paragraph 5 chapter 200




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