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More on the Iraqi Parliament bombing

Blackfive has all the details from a State Department source on what may be happening in Iraq. And a very important note: The Iraqi Parliament building is not in the Green Zone, contrary to what the MSM have been breathlessly reporting:

Actually, depite the reporting I've heard from CNN, BBC and NPR, which keeps up the ominous drone of doom about the terrorists breaching the Parliament buliding in "the heart of the heavily fortified Green Zone," the FACT is the Parliament buliding is NOT IN the Green Zone. We turned it over to the Iraqis in 2006. And when it was, it was at the outer NW edge of the Green or International Zone.


Of course, no one here especially expects the press, with its now, 4 year old biases to get it right. But that being said, I am beginning to believe there is something else going on here that this episode illustrates, which in an unfortunately perverse way, suggests deeper progresss.

The attack was carried out by Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), the Mesopotamian affiliate of bin Laden's parent corporation. (Actually, it's more like a cooperative) It was directed in the first instance against what it sees are Sunni Quislings, who advocate the apostacy of political integration in finding a political "solution" to this strife.

The AQI started doing that in Al Anbar a while ago, attacking tribal leaders who decided to try to leverage a political resolution into all kinds of advantages, some high-minded, many not. After a few moths of attacks on these indigenous tribes many of the tribal leaders havebegan turning vilently and relentlessly against AQI. they began turning them in, but usually just tracked them down and killed them...by the truckloads.

If that begins to happen in Baghdad we have a real paradigm shift.

Read the rest.


Comments (86)

Another very important note... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Another very important note: Kim will believe any anonymous quote she finds on the internet as long as it supports whatever whacko theory she happens to be plugging this week.

Current edition: Baghdad Convention Center (and the Iraqi Parliament chamber it houses) is not in the Green Zone!

Predicted correction when it is confirmed that the Convention Center is in fact in the Green Zone, and the fact that security for the Parliament was turned over to Iraqi forces doesn't change that: None.

The only purpose of the "gr... (Below threshold)

The only purpose of the "green zone" is to serve as a bullseye for insurgents.

I actually read (in the MSM... (Below threshold)

I actually read (in the MSM, so it must be OK with mantis) right when it happened that it appeared to be targeted at a particular group of lawmakers who made up the full initial death toll. That part isn't new news. Jihadists going specifically after a party supporting political solutions didn't really look all that surprising at the time or now. They've been targeting non-terrorist-supporting Sunni's all along.

Every map I've ever seen ha... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

Every map I've ever seen has the Iraqi Parliament building inside the Green Zone. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation however because I don't believe there is a green line on the ground demarcating the area.

This is really an academic point anyway. Suffice it to say that the Iraqi Parliament has to be one of the most heavily guarded locations in all of Iraq. If it isn't, then the Iraqis are idiots. If it is, then it demonstrates that the insurgents have the ability to strike at the very heart of the Iraqi government. All the more remarkable when you consider how well the surge is working. John McCain demonstrated that an American Senator can walk around freely now in Baghdad's markets. They just can't do that in the Parliament building I guess. Maybe we forgot to "surge" in that area. A minor oversight.

in the MSM, so it must b... (Below threshold)
mantis:

in the MSM, so it must be OK with mantis

Incorrect. A little healthy skepticism is all I ask, whether things are being reported in the big, bad MSM or elsewhere, especially when single anonymous sources are involved.

I'll note that for Blackfive's (and Kim's) contention to be correct, countless reporters, Iraqi, and U.S. officials and spokespeople who live and work inside the Green Zone have to be lying about its boundaries and/or the location of the Parliament. Yet Kim states, without no equivocation, that "The Iraqi Parliament building is not in the Green Zone," based solely on an email Blackfive quotes anonymously.

Oh, it is outside the 'gree... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Oh, it is outside the 'green-zone'. Well that makes all the difference. Hell in about a hundred years the Iraqi will celebrate this day just like Britain on Guy Fawkes Day.

Yes, the Convention Centre/... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:
Cripes, it wasn't even a bi... (Below threshold)

Cripes, it wasn't even a big needle. Get over yourself.

For the record, I haven't seen any reports that didn't mention bomb-sniffing dogs and heavy security, so in or out, it was being treated like the Green Zone on the day it happened. It would be nice to see the press be a little more correct, though. If Parliament was handed over to the Iraqis for security, then it would be tougher to insist it is in the Green aka International Zone. However, given the (supposed) level of security, it's just semantics. From my perspective, as someone that writes a media bias blog, I don't see anything to get excited about by the media calling it 'in the Green Zone'.

Lurching into a tangent...it's looking pretty clear that this was an 'inside job', meaning the bomb was smuggled in by someone that didn't have to go through the reportedly heavy security. Anybody feel like supporting Cynthia McKinney-esque rushes through Capitol security just about now? I just hope they have the same security at the catering entrances as at the front door at our Capitol.

Here's a solution to the po... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Here's a solution to the pointless bickering in here: find a map of the Green Zone and determine where the Iraq Parliament building is located.

From the maps I've managed to find, and if I'm correctly identifying the National Parliament building as being the Iraq Parliament building that was bombed day before, then it appears to be at the very edge and inside the Green Zone. But I'm sure somebody out there can find a better, more detailed to confirm this.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/images/cnn-green-zone-map.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/baghdad-green-zone.htm&h=685&w=800&sz=147&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=dxKQkxd_gexyEM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreen%2BZone%2Bmap%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Better to point out that ONE person was killed (a Sunni lawwmaker, by the way) and 22 injured (per CNN); not the original 8 killed as was reported yesterday.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6548337.stm#map

I don't know. I'm looking at this map. Do you think the BBC falsified the map? Can you find another map of the Green Zone showing where the Parliment is?

It look pretty close to the center of the Green Zone to me. Certainly a little north, but not at the edge.

Here's a solution to the po... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Here's a solution to the pointless bickering in here: find a map of the Green Zone and determine where the Iraq Parliament building is located.

From the maps I've managed to find, and if I'm correctly identifying the National Parliament building as being the Iraq Parliament building that was bombed day before, then it appears to be at the very edge and inside the Green Zone. But I'm sure somebody out there can find a better, more detailed to confirm this.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/images/cnn-green-zone-map.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/baghdad-green-zone.htm&h=685&w=800&sz=147&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=dxKQkxd_gexyEM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreen%2BZone%2Bmap%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Better to point out that ONE person was killed (a Sunni lawwmaker, by the way) and 22 injured (per CNN); not the original 8 killed as was reported yesterday.

per the Beeb:Layl... (Below threshold)

per the Beeb:
Layla Khafaji - an MP from the United Iraq Alliance - was in a nearby room when the bomb went off in the Iraqi parliament's cafe.

"We blame the security checks that we have in the parliament building, which we always complained and have concerns about," she said.

"We see some of the bodyguards for some of the parliamentarians enter with their weapons. Some of them - I heard - refused to get checked out at the checkpoints, in the front door or the back door.

"So this is a weakness in the security situation which makes these incidents happen."

Maybe some of those lawmakers will start making their bodyguards get checked, now.

Here's a solution to the po... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Here's a solution to the pointless bickering in here: find a map of the Green Zone and determine where the Iraq Parliament building is located.

From the maps I've managed to find, and if I'm correctly identifying the National Parliament building as being the Iraq Parliament building that was bombed day before, then it appears to be at the very edge and inside the Green Zone. But I'm sure somebody out there can find a better, more detailed to confirm this.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/images/cnn-green-zone-map.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/baghdad-green-zone.htm&h=685&w=800&sz=147&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=dxKQkxd_gexyEM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGreen%2BZone%2Bmap%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Better to point out that ONE person was killed (a Sunni lawwmaker, by the way) and 22 injured (per CNN); not the original 8 killed as was reported yesterday.

What's the deal with that? ... (Below threshold)

What's the deal with that? Everything should be italicized except the last sentence, which was my comment. The rest was a quote.

Fox News published an AP st... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

Fox News published an AP story saying that the attacked was inside the Green Zone. The story also used the Fox-approved term "homocide bomber".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,265487,00.html

CNN has a much smaller Gree... (Below threshold)

CNN has a much smaller Green Zone than the BBC, just for comparison's sake:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/14/iraq.main/index.html

click on the map link in the middle of the story

<a href="http://www.mctdire... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

http://www.mctdirect.com/shared/preview.htm?doc=KRT%2Fkrtgfxlive%2Fdocs%2F022%2F795

For what it's worth, THIS image shows the Parliment closer to the edge of the Green Zone. So, I would suppose, this is the source you believe.

There's was ONE person kill... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

There's was ONE person killed (a Sunni lawmaker BTW) and 22 injured (per CNN); not the original 8 reported yesterday.

Ok, so we know it was indee... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Ok, so we know it was indeed in the green zone. It clearly indicates another weakness that has been easily exploited by the enemy.

The terrorists struck at the heart of Iraqi democracy and succeeded. The surge is failing, and is turning out to be nothing more that another stall by the administration.

<a href="http://news.yahoo.... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/1617/im:/070413/photos_pl_afp/3244c9fb547a5256a29f4c832555a06b

This is the clearest image I can find; it shows Parliment at toward the north end of the middle of the Green Zone.

Anyway, how are we going to determine whether or not the Parliment is in the Green Zone? Just trust your anonymous state department source, because he's telling you what you want to hear? Isn't there any info about the boundaries of the Green Zone and the location of the Parliment that pre-dates this attack? That would provide a reasonable unbiased answer...

For those who need visual a... (Below threshold)
mantis:

For those who need visual aides: map of the Green Zone.

From the article:

Its land-based perimeter is surrounded by concrete blast walls - designed to stop suicide bombers penetrating the nerve centres of official power. The River Tigris acts as a natural defensive barrier along its remaining circumference.

Iraq's parliament - in the old Islamic Conference centre built by Saddam Hussein - is an island of its own within the Green Zone, and to reach it visitors must negotiate concentric rings of armed checkpoints that start from the zone's outer borders.

There are about five vehicle entrances on the Green Zone perimeter - and three further pedestrian-only gates - where visitors will be stopped for the first time.

Politicians and diplomats have very different credentials to the workers that sweep the streets - and subsequent security checks inside the area will likely vary according to who you are.

Ordinary people undergo a full body search. Dogs sniff for explosives, luggage and equipment are opened. Electronic vehicle scanners screen large cars and lorries.

After these outer security measures, visitors face a number of similar checkpoints depending on which part of the zone they are heading to. Many of these are manned by US troops, but some by Iraqi soldiers or private security personnel.

We blame the security checks that we have in the parliament building, which we always complained and have concerns about MP Layla Khafaji

There may be up to eight checks for those heading to the Parliamentary Zone.

I'm sure Kim is right and the BBC is just lying about all this.

Oops, got distracted before... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Oops, got distracted before I hit post and now I see much of this has been covered.

On another tack, our hosts ... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

On another tack, our hosts say that this attack illustrates perversely that progresss is being made in war in Iraq. Kim, I think you had better warn any other American politician like McCaine that before suiting up in Baghdad, they too, could become a positive sign of the progress we are making in the war, if they ended up walking into the path of a suicide bomber.

So, does anyone have GOOD i... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

So, does anyone have GOOD information on whether or not the Parliament is inside the Green Zone? That's the thrust of the article here, that the mainstream media got it wrong. The contention that the MSM is wrong and that the Parliament is outside the Green Zone is from an anonymous State Department source. Why should we believe him/her?

Isn't there a map of the Green Zone showing where the Parliament is that pre-dates this attack? We've got the WHOLE INTERNET to look for it! I've been trying. Anyone else want to help?

I'm just curious. I want to know the truth. Regardless of the answer, the bombing was a very bad thing. I'd just like actual information to understand what's going on...

It clearly indicates ano... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

It clearly indicates another weakness that has been easily exploited by the enemy.

"Easily exploited"? "Hogwash. (To comply with the newer, kinder Wizbang policy.) It doesn't indicate that at all. A breach? Yes. Easily exploited? A bunch of hooey.

Everything will get better ... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Everything will get better once Bush turns over all responsibility to the War Czar!

How do you know the Bush administration has become a joke?

When the jokes become the truth.

The Onion, from a year and a half ago:

WASHINGTON, DC--In response to increasing criticism of his handling of the war in Iraq and the disaster in the Gulf Coast, as well as other issues, such as Social Security reform, the national deficit, and rising gas prices, President Bush is expected to appoint someone to run the U.S. as soon as Friday.

"During these tumultuous times, America is in need of a bold, resolute person who can get the job done," said Bush during a press conference Monday. "My fellow Americans, I assure you that I will appoint just such a person with all due haste."

The Cabinet-level position, to be known as Secretary of the Nation, was established by an executive order Sept. 2, but has remained unfilled in the intervening weeks.

"I've been talking to folks from all across this country, from Louisiana to Los Angeles, and people tell me the same thing: This nation needs a strong, compassionate leader," Bush said. "In response to these concerns, I'm making this a top priority. I will name a good, qualified person as soon as possible."

God help us all!

By the way, I found that he... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

By the way, I found that here:
http://atrios.blogspot.com/

From the Green Zone maps I'... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

From the Green Zone maps I've found, and if I'm reading them correctly and identifying the building correctly, the Iraqi Parliament is just inside the northwest corner of the Green Zone.

It may not be in the "heart", but it's in it.

(I tried to post this earlier, complete with maps, etc. but I was pinged/denied by the server. Not sure what's up with dat...)

The building is the "heart"... (Below threshold)
Lee:

The building is the "heart" of their democracy, which was the point I made - I wasn't suggesting that it was physically in the center of the zone.

But just how far into the green zone does it need to be in order to be -- you know -- in the green zone?

I'm sure the apologists will provide adequate reasons why the fact that it is near the edge matters -- completely ignoring the fact that Kim's whole post is based on a lie -- just another Republican lie.

Kim,Did you use to... (Below threshold)

Kim,

Did you use to work at the Chinese Ministry of Information?

The same folks that said no one was killed in Tiananmen Square on June 4th, 1989. The Chinese goverment moved the boundaries of the square so that all of the deaths happened outside of the "official" Tiananmen Square area.

Damn Kim, your partisan spin isn't even original. Are things so bad for the right that you now just recycle your spin?

Iraqslogger.com has a <a hr... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

Iraqslogger.com has a map.

It looks like the other ones I've seen.

Peter F. --Appreci... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

Peter F. --

Appreciate your effort. But if we want an unbiased answer to whether or not the Parliament is inside the Green Zone, we'd need a map of the Zone showing Parliament made before these attacks.

Actually, since this blog (and some anonymous state department official) is making the contrary claim (different from other sources), I think THEY need to justify THEIR claim. That said, I'm just looking for the facts...

Larkin -That's the... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

Larkin -

That's the clearest map yet; it shows both the Green Zone boundaries and the Parliament. Thanks!

For those of you who want t... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

For those of you who want to believe the "surge" is a success, I will note that, although from the best I can determine, the Parliament is inside the Green Zone, security for the Parliament is being handled by the Iraqis. So, the bombing does not indicate that American-secured areas were hit by this attack.

Agreed, Larkin. That's wher... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Agreed, Larkin. That's where the maps I've seen place the building, too.

the FACT is the Pa... (Below threshold)
Publicus:
the FACT is the Parliament buliding is NOT IN the Green Zone

It looks like we're close to concluded that this statement is probably untrue, or at best, unsupported. Certainly, many actual maps from different sources showing the Parliament within the Green Zone is better than an anonymous State Department source. Plus, since this claim conflicts with nearly every other source, it's up to those making this claim to justify it. Simply stating that something is a FACT doesn't make it so...

Ok, so now there isn't anyo... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Ok, so now there isn't anyone left who is still suggesting the building isn't in the green zone - is it time to ask the question "Why is the State Department source lying about it?"

Or should we instead ask "Hold long before conservative bloggers issue a correction to this lie?"

Although I'm sure there are still many among us who want to know "Why is the surge not working?" and "How long do we have to wait before the President acknowledges that it isn't working?"

"The Green Zone currently a... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

"The Green Zone currently accommodates the embassies of the United States and Great Britain and buildings for the Iraqi cabinet, presidency, parliament, the Defense Ministry, and the Iraqi High Criminal Court."

From a July 2006 article on globalsecurity.org (bold not in original)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2006/07/iraq-060710-rferl01.htm

I know the message of this ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

I know the message of this post will be lost on deep thinkers like mantis and publicus and will completely baffle BarnyG2, but here goes. During the last battle of WWII, a great fleet of ships were formed off the coast of an enemy held island (Okinawa). The enemy sought to inflict enough damage on that fleet that they would withdraw, believing our nation would not wish to sustain the losses necessary for victory (Read that mantis ?) Suicide pilots came in waves and despite the best efforts of sailors and airmen, over 300 ships were damaged or lost. Inspite of losses, the battle was won. It would be easy to say that we were made of sterner stuff in those days, rather than the dog shit that makes up the likes of mantis, publicus, lee and the rest. Mantis, it is a shame that any man or woman could walk up to you, look you in the eye and call you a liar and be telling the truth. The facts are there, notice this was done not by Iraqi insurgents, but your friends in al Qaeda. No link there is there? Shameful bastards.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft III --</p... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

Zelsdorf Ragshaft III --

We're discussing different things. This posting makes the claim that the Parliament isn't inside the Green Zone. As best as we can determine, that claim is false. That said, your memories of WWII are interesting; just not pertinent to what's being discussed here.

Ragshaft, the next time tha... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Ragshaft, the next time that you use an analogy please try to make it relevant to the discussion, or to anything.

Gee Kim, I guess Dana Perin... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

Gee Kim, I guess Dana Perino (Tony Snow's replacement as White House spokesperson) is also perpetuating the lie that the Parliament building is inside the Green Zone.

"It's very troubling that this happened inside the Green Zone. And we're going to work to make sure that, one, we find out how it happened and that it doesn't happen again," said Bush spokeswoman Dana Perino.

Found this on Yahoo News.

Larken --THAT quot... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

Larken --

THAT quote is pretty conclusive...

Ragshaft, the next time ... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Ragshaft, the next time that you use an analogy please try to make it relevant to the discussion, or to anything.

Likewise, Barney.


Now that we've dispensed wi... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

Now that we've dispensed with the false assertion that the Iraqi Parliament building is not inside the Green Zone on to the rest of the post:

After a few moths of attacks on these indigenous tribes many of the tribal leaders have began turning violently and relentlessly against AQI. they began turning them in, but usually just tracked them down and killed them...by the truckloads.

Thanks Kim, because this is further proof of what I have maintained is the only way to eradicate the Al Qaeda from Iraq. The Sunni tribes, properly armed and supported by US airpower, should be able to wipe out the Al Qaeda in their midst. Iraq's Sunnis have always been oriented towards secularism and unsupportive of the Saudi Wahabbist doctrine that forms the philosophical foundation of Al Qaeda.

The only thing they ask from us is that we commit to a timetable for withdrawal to end the occupation. The longer we refuse to do that the more entrenched Al Qaeda will become in western Iraq.

Zelsdorf..We understand you... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Zelsdorf..We understand your analogy to the Battle of Okinawa.. But this is a completely different kind of war- a war on terror, which the president hints is unwinnable and has got us stuck in Iraq- and our allies are a myriad of political and security forces, including the security guard that blew himself up and a Parliament,of whose location people allegedly in the State Department or pro war or demcoracy advocates, don't even even know where it is.

Well, I for one don't trust... (Below threshold)
cat:

Well, I for one don't trust those out-of-date liberal maps made by defeatist terrorist-loving traitors who never venture outside their hotels in the Green Zone. I'm only going to believe what the Pentagon says because I know the military is always right:

"The general said that no one knows for sure who launched the attack in Baghdad's heavily fortified International Zone."
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=32799

As Kim said, this is a very important point, because if even an anonymous source quoted by a blog knows that the Iraqi parliament is not in the Green Zone, who are these out-of-date defeatist terrorist-loving liberals at the Pentagon? Don't they ever venture outside the safety of their hotels to find out the truth and report all the positive news? The Pentagon clearly wants America to lose.

Iraq's Sunnis have alway... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Iraq's Sunnis have always been oriented towards secularism and unsupportive of the Saudi Wahabbist doctrine that forms the philosophical foundation of Al Qaeda.

And you issued the following statement yesterday:

...a commitment by the Sunni insurgents to assist in eradicating the Al Qaeda elements in Iraq

Something's not jibing here, Lark. And I think you're mistaking a tribe (Sunni) and a religious movement (Wahhabism) as being separate, and that's largely incorrect. AQI is largely comprised of Saudi AND Sunni Wahhabists. To be clear, Zarqawi, founder of AQI, was a Sunni and certainly part of the Wahhabist movenment, but AQI actively recruits (more like threatens to kill their families, etc.) Sunni members.

To clarify your point, many moderate Sunni are turning against AQI and one other group whose name is escaping me at the moment (one of those tip of the tongue deals).

Can you please site a quote from a Sunni politician who has requested a timetable for our withdrawl? I've yet to find one.

BarnyG, I use you as an exa... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

BarnyG, I use you as an example of following a thread. Publicus, if you cannot connect what I had to say with the meme of what you, mantis and barneyg have been spouting on every opportunity concerning news from the front. Pardon Moi. The jist of my post was that no matter where or how secure a place may seem, ie, the World Trade Center, NYC, a determined enemy can strike it. I noticed something else in common with WWII The alliance between Hitler and Stalin. Bitter enemies. And that of the leftist and our enemies. Let us face facts. Liberal democrats, baathists, the Iranian Government, and al Qaeda all agree we should leave Iraq. I wonder what you communists are going to do when the islamofascists come after you. The location of the Iraqi parliament, either inside or outside the international zone in Bagdad is really not relevant. I notice Israel, as secure as they try to be still has suicide bombers from time to time. That is the nature of the enemy. If you are foolish enough to believe that we can quit fighting them, study history. All that will happen is that the theater of operation will move much closer to home.

Crickmore. There is only o... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Crickmore. There is only one kind of war. How is is executed and the tactics involved make it different. War exists when on faction tries to inforce its will on another faction using force. War exists when that force is resisted. A war exists between the liberal democrats lead congress and the executive branch. It is a cold war, but a war no less.

And I think you're mista... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

And I think you're mistaking a tribe (Sunni) and a religious movement (Wahhabism) as being separate, and that's largely incorrect.

Oops. I just re-read what I wrote and it came out completely wrong. I meant to say..."as being somehow being incompatible..." A much better word.

"A war exists between the ... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

"A war exists between the liberal democrats lead congress and the executive branch. It is a cold war, but a war no less."

One can only imagine the desperation and lenghts that the Democrats might go if they didn't have the Media to get them elected. If we had an honest unbiased Media the democrat Party would be where it was and belongs , in the toilet. With their level of hate and stupidity I've no doubt their would be no shortage on morons willing to start blowing things up. Like throwing a tantrum by throwing bombs. No question about it.

PublicusFox Ne... (Below threshold)
marc:

Publicus

Fox News published an AP story saying that the attacked was inside the Green Zone. The story also used the Fox-approved term "homocide bomber".

As opposed to what... the Moore approved "freedom fighter?"

As opposed to the Beeb's "insurgent" even for those nown to be al-queda?"

That aside your implication seems to be "homocide bomber" is somehow an invalid description. If so, how so?

barneyRUBBLE:

You post a far too long quote from the Onion (obtained from atrios of all places) a site that deals exclusively in satire and not reality then you have the never to say this:

Ragshaft, the next time that you use an analogy please try to make it relevant to the discussion, or to anything.

The term Self Parody comes to mind.


A war exists between the... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

A war exists between the liberal democrats lead congress and the executive branch. It is a cold war, but a war no less

Yes, it's too bad we didn't have what Atrios calls the compromise shuffle in Iraq.

"...study history."<p... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"...study history."

Zelsdorf Ragshaft III

Can I borrow those sugar packets when you get done?

Yaaayyyy!!!The freaking Fre... (Below threshold)
nikkolai:

Yaaayyyy!!!The freaking Freedom Fighters bombed the Iraqi parliament INSIDE the green zone.

Sincerely,

American Leftist

Can you please site a qu... (Below threshold)
Larkin:

Can you please site a quote from a Sunni politician who has requested a timetable for our withdrawl?

Sure Peter. That took about 5 seconds using Google.

Salih al-Mutlaq, who heads the Iraqi Front for National Dialogue:

"Well, what I am asking for is a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops in parallel with a timetable to correct the mistakes they have [made] in Iraq. "

Farid Sabri representing the Iraqi Islamic Party:

"Resistance will not stop until there is a U.S. timetable for withdrawal."

Sheik Harith al-Dari, is a 64-year-old cleric and tribal leader who has become a leading spokesman for Iraq's disaffected Sunni Arabs. in a rare interview, Mr. Dari made clear that he would continue to view the armed resistance as legitimate until the American military offered a clear timetable for its withdrawal - a condition very unlikely to be met.

"We ask all wise men in the American nation to advise the administration to leave this country," he said. "It would save much blood and suffering for the Iraqi and American people."

Omar Ghalib, a member of the Sunni Muslim Scholars Association:

He reiterated a demand for a two-year timetable for the withdrawal of American troops as a condition for not calling for a fresh boycott ahead of the December polls.

If you haven't noticed this you're just not paying attention.

And Zarqawi was a Jordanian. AQI is largely composed of foreigners. I'm sure there are some Iraqis in it and more will join every day we continue to remain in the country.

"All that will happen is th... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

"All that will happen is that the theater of operation will move much closer to home." Ragshaft

What is stopping them from doing that right now? The occupation in Iraq? I don't think so. Are you telling me that Saudis (remember 9/11) and Pakistanis (remember the Taliban) wont attacks us here because we are in Iraq?

Then answer me this. How come every year the number of terrorists attacks around the world since 9/11 have increased? Why was there a terrorist attack in Algiers if we are fighting them in Iraq?

Just because you and Bush can't walk and chew gum at the same time, don't think the terrorists cant fight over there and over here.

See that is how you tie an analogy back to your central argument.

The location of th... (Below threshold)
Publicus:
The location of the Iraqi parliament, either inside or outside the international zone in Bagdad is really not relevant.

Well, it IS relevant, because it is Kim's key point in her post. And that is what I have been responding to.

Your points----that sometimes you need to take casualties to win a war----is true and obvious. Whether or not these casualties are worth is something we probably don't agree on.

Larkin, I'll bet you it wou... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Larkin, I'll bet you it would have been possible to find Europeans that wished the U.S. had not stayed to occupy Europe after WWII. We know the Soviets wished us gone from Europe as well as Japan and South East Asia incl. Korea. Let us face it, there have been people elected to that Government (notice I use the term elected, probably a first in Iraq in a long long long time) who do not agree with what the majority of that body see as what is best for the country. Our founders chose a bicameral system. The Iraqis chose a monocameral system. Just like here. The loyal opposition is sometimes not so loyal.

Larkin,Hey, I was ... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Larkin,

Hey, I was pretty civil in addressing you and your remark of "If you haven't noticed this you're just not paying attention..." is really petty, snide and out of line.

With that out of the way, what you fail to do is provide links to those quotes (with dates) and their sources, so that proper context can be applied. Otherwise, it's pointless to even address them.

And just for a moment, on the surface, consider the source of the quotes: Sunnis. THE minority in the country blaming the U.S. for the insurgents causing and or provoking a majority of the violence in their midst.

Which is the more reasonable approach, Larkin:
1. End the violence, then discuss timetables
or...
2. Discuss timetables, then end the violence.

How on earth is 2 the more desirable, reasonable and logical option.

So.... why did the State de... (Below threshold)
Lee:

So.... why did the State department source lie?

Any ideas...?

Could it have anything to do with the War on Liberals as declared by Zelda Ragsucker?

It would appear that one tactic in this war is to anonymously leak lies that the right-wing bloggers propagate without question -- at the same time that they are slamming the MSM as being inaccurate.

The liars are becoming more bold in their lies, and still no correction from Wizbang.

Kim Priestap from Wizbang: "The Iraqi Parliament building is not in the Green Zone, contrary to what the MSM have been breathlessly reporting:"

Why is there STILL no retraction or correction from Kim?

Peter, I often find Google ... (Below threshold)
cat:

Peter, I often find Google quite helpful. With a couple of clicks, we can quickly find these links to Larkin's quotes:

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/03/b5142db1-fb0e-4a97-bf1f-6578c1898e0e.html
http://washtimes.com/world/20051218-105900-2459r.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/29/news/cleric.php
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/29/wirq29.xml

Now all you have to do is click on them, read them, then you can continue your discussion with Larkin. Incidentally, it's not only Sunnis who have been demanding a timetable for withdrawal. Shiites, Kurds and Christians signed this letter:

http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/sp050722.shtml

I don't know if McDermott's figure of "at least 126" members of the Iraqi parliament is right or not, since this article only says 82:

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=13046

How well did these politicians represent the views of ordinary Iraqis? Well, according to a survey for the British Ministry of Defense in 2005, 80% of Iraqis wanted the US to leave.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/23/ixworld.html

We could argue over whether or not that would be a good thing, but I thought you were supposed to be bringing democracy to Iraq. If 80% want you to go, why won't you listen to them. It's supposed to be their country.

Peter, I often find Google ... (Below threshold)
cat:
(I had to split this commen... (Below threshold)
cat:

(I had to split this comment in two because the spam filter won't allow the number of links I'm posting so that you can assess the context.)

Peter, now I've given you the links to Larkin's quotes, all you have to do is click on them, read them, then you can continue your discussion with him. Incidentally, it's not only Sunnis who have been demanding a timetable for withdrawal. Shiites, Kurds and Christians signed this letter:

http://www.house.gov/mcdermott/sp050722.shtml

I don't know if McDermott's figure of "at least 126" members of the Iraqi parliament is right or not, since this article only says 82:

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=13046

How well did these politicians represent the views of ordinary Iraqis? Well, according to a survey for the British Ministry of Defense in 2005, 80% of Iraqis wanted the US to leave.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/23/ixworld.html

We could argue over whether or not that would be a good thing, but I thought you were supposed to be bringing democracy to Iraq. If 80% want you to go, why won't you listen to them. It's supposed to be their country.

1. End the vi... (Below threshold)
Lee:

1. End the violence, then discuss timetables
or...
2. Discuss timetables, then end the violence.

Why only two options? How about this one --

3. Discuss timetables, recognizing that the violence won't end until we no longer occupy Iraq.

barneyRUBBLE:T... (Below threshold)
marc:

barneyRUBBLE:

Then answer me this. How come every year the number of terrorists attacks around the world since 9/11 have increased? Why was there a terrorist attack in Algiers if we are fighting them in Iraq?

Can I answer your question with a...

Never mind I will anyway.

Can you single out one war in history where the opponent/enemy didn't recruit more fighters to face the other side?

Do you honestly believe anyone during the course of war wouldn't attempt to at the very least replace those "lost" and in the best of circumstances increase their numbers?

Meanwhile:

DESPITE sectarian slaughter, ethnic cleansing and suicide bombs, an opinion poll conducted on the eve of the fourth anniversary of the US-led invasion of Iraq has found a striking resilience and optimism among the inhabitants.

The poll, the biggest since coalition troops entered Iraq on March 20, 2003, shows that by a majority of two to one, Iraqis prefer the current leadership to Saddam Hussein's regime, regardless of the security crisis and a lack of public services.

The survey, published today, [March 18, 2007] also reveals that contrary to the views of many western analysts, most Iraqis do not believe they are embroiled in a civil war.

***********
Most international organisations have pulled out of Iraq and diplomats are mostly holed-up in the Green Zone. The unexpected degree of optimism may signal a groundswell of hope at signs the American "surge" is starting to take effect.

This weekend comments from Baghdad residents reflected the poll's findings. Many said they were starting to feel more secure on the streets, although horrific bombings have continued. "The Americans have checkpoints and the most important thing is they don't ask for ID, whether you are Sunni or Shi'ite," said one resident. "There are no more fake checkpoints so you don't need to be scared."

3. Discuss timetables, r... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

3. Discuss timetables, recognizing that the violence won't end until we no longer occupy Iraq.

How the f**k is that ANY different from #2, Lee.

Answer: It's not. Period.

Finally, should we choose to leave Iraq tomorrow, the following (fill in the sectarian genocidial blank here) will happen shortly thereafter.


You're FULL of solutions, aren't you, Lee.

Solutions?Oh... I ... (Below threshold)
marc:

Solutions?

Oh... I have been under the impression he was full of something else.

Beside being full of himsel... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Beside being full of himself, Little bitty lee is full of shit. The king of lies pronounces statements by others as lies. Thats hot. I did not start any war on liberals, it is you making war on us. First you refuse to accept a legally elected President as such all because the gifted algore doubled back on his admission of defeat in Fla. Imagine the carbon credits you could be purchasing from him had he become President. That fact alone proves there is a God. Lee, everything that comes from you is a lie.

The Iraqi Parliment buildin... (Below threshold)
rummy:

The Iraqi Parliment building is in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

Anyone in here using the li... (Below threshold)
bloodstomper:

Anyone in here using the line, "should we choose to leave Iraq tomorrow, the following (fill in the sectarian genocidial blank here) will happen shortly thereafter," has no faith in the Iraqi people and doesn't really give a fig whether they live or die anyway. Really.

Wizbang with another import... (Below threshold)
donnie:

Wizbang with another important update from Neverland.

Saddam needed to be gone, a... (Below threshold)
kim:

Saddam needed to be gone, and the Iraqis are creating their new nation(s).
=============================

Peter F -- discussing timet... (Below threshold)
Lee:

Peter F -- discussing timetables before end ing the violence (your option 2) without recognizing that there will be no end to the violence until we end our occupation of Iraq is not the same as what I've suggested. Ignoring the obvious connection between our presence and the continued violence would suggest that a longer timetable isn't detrimental to our cause. It is.

The longer we stay there the more lives that are needlessly lost. We need to move towards getting out of Iraq sooner rather than later, and a key motivation behind that is to end the violence that won't end until we leave.

Once you recognize that reality the timetable shifts -- that's much different than your simplistic options and is therefore over your head... but getting you to understand this reality is impossible anyway, so I'm not concerned by your confusion and bewilderment.

Lee: (and others with the s... (Below threshold)
marc:

Lee: (and others with the same misguided thoughts)

The longer we stay there the more lives that are needlessly lost. We need to move towards getting out of Iraq sooner rather than later, and a key motivation behind that is to end the violence that won't end until we leave.

What makes you believe Iran who has made more than a token effort at keeping Iraq unstable won't continue to do so after a premature U.S. pullout?

In fact what makes you think Iran won't step up its efforts at destabilization with the ultimate goal of total control of the country?

What is it about the stated goals of al-Qaeda makes you think they will also disappear into the nether if the U.S. pulled out too early?

Get out ........completely.... (Below threshold)
civil behavior:

Get out ........completely...definitively...now.

All that the surge has done is spread the violence to all other areas, including Baghdad now. How stupid can you neocons be. You think the insurgents are going to just pack up and leave becausee we put some pressure on Baghdad.

Who the heck cares if the Iraqi Parlimaent building is i or out of the Green Zone. You are all idiots if you argue about the exact location. Don't feed the ego of people like Kim. She wants to use diversionary rhetoric to obscure the real debate.

It's time to get our kids out. Now. If it means yanking the funding then do so. Grow some balls. Stand for what counts. Stop American deaths and hten work on stopping the rest.

Stupid foolish Americans.

When the civil authority su... (Below threshold)
kim:

When the civil authority suddenly changes from seeking control to seeking justice, there will be an initial period of disorder before the autocivilizing effect of justice takes over. Patience, Pilgrims.
==========================

CB:All that th... (Below threshold)
marc:

CB:

All that the surge has done is spread the violence to all other areas, including Baghdad now. How stupid can you neocons be. You think the insurgents are going to just pack up and leave becausee we put some pressure on Baghdad.

Firstly, "including Baghdad now?" It was always violent you dim bulb and indications are it's less so now.

Secondly can you give a coherent answer to the questions posed in my last comment?

And lastly, would you support Sen. Joe Biden's idea?

Before you answer that keep in mind your talking point of "America shouldn't be in the middle of an Iraqi 'civil war'" but the Senator's suggestion will place American troops smack in the center of a real civil war.

As a "pre-emptive strike" I'll categorically state you won't have anything of substance in your answers.

Here's substance for you ma... (Below threshold)
civil behavior:

Here's substance for you marc.......

Your nationalist fervor having to prove Bush right has overtaken your feeble brain. Imperialism is not our business. Bring the kids home, they are being killed in larger numbers again for a faux goveernment that doesn't even show up to work. We ruined their country. Your president broke it. We will pay for it for a long time. But let us pay for it with our dollars though fewer they will be thanks to the debt but no more blood. Understand? No more blood.

We cannot win in Iraq. We knew that before we went in. How many benchmarks will you keep haranguing us for before you realize we can't win. We took out Saddam, we killed his sons, we got Zarqawi, we had an election, we formed a government. How many more benchmarks before you realize the difference that negotiating from strength means no more occupation. It's time to get the heck out. Now. Before more kids die for this tragic mistake.

But...But...but CB, you fai... (Below threshold)
marc:

But...But...but CB, you failed to answer any of the questions posed.

And thus... NO substance and zero guts to do anything but toss around invective, hate and nonsensical diatribes.

And BTW, "Your president broke it." shouldn't WE be the ones to fix what WE broke?

Saddam needed to be deposed... (Below threshold)
kim:

Saddam needed to be deposed and the Iraqis are creating their own state(s).
================================

Marc, Iran didn't have any ... (Below threshold)
cat:

Marc, Iran didn't have any influence at all in Iraq until you gave it to them. The longer you've stayed, the bigger Iran's influence in Iraq has been. Al-Qaeda has only been tolerated by some factions in Iraq because it wanted to fight your troops. As soon as you leave, that tolerance will end.

So, you brought Iran into Iraq.
You brought al-Qaeda into Iraq.
The longer you stay, the bigger their influence is.
The sooner you leave, the sooner Iraqis will have to sort their own problems out.
But remember, you owe them a massive amount of compensation for destroying their country.

Does that answer your questions? (How do I know you're going to say no?)

cat:Does that ... (Below threshold)
marc:

cat:

Does that answer your questions? (How do I know you're going to say no?)

Your preconceived notions make you out to be fool.

You "answered" the questions however as predicted in CB's case they are of little substance.

Regardless of how Iran or al-Qaeda got into Iraq or when doesn't in any way discount any reasons why they might stay.

For example: Why would Iran leave a country where with the right amount influence among the like-minded population of Iraqi shias they could take control of Iraqs vast amount of oil?

Why would Iran abandon a place that combined with Irans own territory would give them an enormous tactical, strategic and political advantage over not only the hated sunnis in Saudi Arabia but also the vast stretches of the world that rely on oil and LNG products from the Gulf area.

cat, your ignorance is astounding, but not surprising.

Oh joy! I love it when a Wi... (Below threshold)
cat:

Oh joy! I love it when a Wizbanger calls me a fool with preconceived notions. Here's why:

Before I read your very clever reply, marc, I went away, had some food, then looked back through this thread. I found you had quoted from a very interesting survey. Or rather, you had selectively quoted from an article by the Sunday Times that was reprinted in other Murdoch papers in various parts of the world. It also turns out that the writer of that article was himself a little on the selective side.

But before we look at the Sunday Times' selectivity, let's look at yours. You were honest enough to indicate that you had snipped a large part of the story. Here's one part you deleted:

"But the poll highlights the impact that sectarian violence has had. About 26 per cent of Iraqis - 15 per cent of Sunnis and 34 per cent of Shi'ites - have suffered the murder of a family member."

One in four people have had a family member killed. Repeat that in your head. Repeat it throughout the day. Repeat in your sleep until the meaning of that horrific number sinks in.

I wonder why you didn't quote that?

Now, let's get to the selectivity of the Sunday Times writer. He quotes the source of that survey. A curious mind, might think: "I want to see this survey. Is it available online?" That curious mind, leaving aside preconceptions might then decide to look. And lo! Seek and ye will find:

http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=67

And behold:

"Regionally there are also significant differences in attitudes regarding the security situation and the influence of Multi National Forces (MNF). Nationally a small majority (53%) feels that the security situation in Iraq will get better in the immediate weeks following a withdrawal of the MNF. A quarter (26%) believes the situation will deteriorate with the remainder predicting no change or answering 'Don't know.' "

Note that the authors of the survey you quoted say "in the immediate weeks following a withdrawal." The real situation would almost certainly be far more complex than that. The survey shows that different parts of the country have very different opinions. Why would that be? Because their situations are different. 85% of Kurds, for example, think security would get worse. But 70% of people in south and central Iraq think it would get better. In my preconceived notions, I think many places would get worse before getting better. But everyone could be wrong.

At the bottom of the page of the survey you didn't link to, but I have helpfully found for you, you will find another link to Powerpoint tables showing the radically different opinions expressed by different communities in the various parts of Iraq. These few statistics show a situation that defies simplistic interpretations. Read them. Digest them. See if you can make up your mind in a non-preconceived way. They do not unequivocally back anyone's rigid view.

Does Iran have an interest in Iraq? Yes. Why? They're neighbors. Iran does not want to be surrounded by enemies. The current prime minister of Iraq approved by your president is an ally of Iran. Do you like that? Does that suggest that it's time for regime change?

Why did you quote so selectively? Why did the Sunday Times quote so selectively? Why didn't you bother to look for the source of the information you quoted from? Could it be that... (fill in your own ending).

Hey cat, the Iraqis are cre... (Below threshold)
kim:

Hey cat, the Iraqis are creating their own state(s). Be glad for them.
================================




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