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Freak: VTech Shooter Sent "Manifesto" to NBC News Between Shootings

We learned today that the shooter (I won't mention his name) had very evil intentions to use this shooting to ga some sick, twisted form of infamy. This guy sent a "manifesto" to NBC News, which included videos, pictures, writings. From MSNBC:

Sometime after he killed two people in a dormitory but before he slaughtered 30 more in a classroom building Monday morning, Cho Seung-Hui sent NBC News a rambling communication and videos about his grievances, the network said Wednesday.


Network officials turned the material over to the FBI and said they would not immediately disclose its contents pending the agency's review beyond characterizing the material as "disturbing." It included a written communication, photographs and video.

So he didn't "snap" at all; this massacre was planned the whole time. I wonder, did he want to survive this so he could become a Tim McVeigh like figure? This guy was more evil than any of us thought.

Update: Glenn Reynolds has a piece in the New York Daily News that outlines quite well how the right to carry a weapon on college campuses makes students and faculty safer:

In The Roanoke Times last year - after another campus incident, when a dangerous escaped inmate was roaming the campus - [Virginia Tech graduate student Bradford Wiles] Wiles wrote that, when his class was evacuated, "Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness. That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself."


Wiles reported that when he told a professor how he felt, the professor responded that she would have felt safer if he had had a gun, too.

What's more, she would have been safer. That's how I feel about my student (one of a few I know who have gun carry permits), as well. She's a responsible adult; I trust her not to use her gun improperly, and if something bad happened, I'd want her to be armed because I trust her to respond appropriately, making the rest of us safer.

Virginia Tech doesn't have that kind of trust in its students (or its faculty, for that matter). Neither does the University of Tennessee. Both think that by making their campuses "gun-free," they'll make people safer, when in fact they're only disarming the people who follow rules, law-abiding people who are no danger at all.

This merely ensures that the murderers have a free hand. If there were more responsible, armed people on campuses, mass murder would be harder.

Read the rest of Glenn's piece.

Update II: A few more details of what was in the package he sent to NBC:

It contained digital photos of the gunman holding weapons and a manifesto that "rants against rich people and warns that he wants to get even," according to a New York law enforcement official familiar with the case, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about it.

Update III: Virginia Tech administration let this guy back on campus after he had been placed in a mental institution?

A Virginia court found that Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho was "mentally ill" and potentially dangerous. Then the state let him go.


In 2005, after a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho was either a danger to himself or to others -- the necessary criteria for a detention order -- he was evaluated by a state doctor and ordered to undergo outpatient care.

According to the "Temporary Detention Order" obtained by ABC News, psychologist Roy Crouse found Cho's "affect is flat and mood is depressed.

"He denies suicidal ideation. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder," Dr. Crouse wrote. "His insight and judgment are normal."

The evaluation came from a psychiatric hospital near Virginia Tech, where Cho was taken by police in December 2005, after two female schoolmates said they received threatening messages from him, and police and school officials became concerned that he might be suicidal.

After Dr. Crouse's psychological evaluation of Cho, Special Justice Paul M. Barnett certified the finding, ordering followup treatment on an outpatient basis.

On the form, a box is checked, showing that the person "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness."

Immediately below it was another box that is not checked: "Presents an imminent danger to others as a result of mental illness."

And the school let him back on campus? And why didn't the school send this information to the state police? If they had, wouldn't it have shown up in the background check that the gun shop did when the killer bought his guns?

Update IV: Dinesh D'Souza writes an interesting post at AOL's News Bloggers that asks "Where is atheism when bad things happen?"

The atheist writer Richard Dawkins has observed that according to the findings of modern science, the universe has all the properties of a system that is utterly devoid of meaning. The main characteristic of the universe is pitiless indifference. Dawkins further argues that we human beings are simply agglomerations of molecules, assembled into functional units over millennia of natural selection, and as for the soul--well, that's an illusion!

To no one's surprise, Dawkins has not been invited to speak to the grieving Virginia Tech community. What this tells me is that if it's difficult to know where God is when bad things happen, it is even more difficult for atheism to deal with the problem of evil. The reason is that in a purely materialist universe, immaterial things like good and evil and souls simply do not exist. For scientific atheists like Dawkins, Cho's shooting of all those people can be understood in this way--molecules acting upon molecules.


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Comments (54)

A sick attempt to get his "... (Below threshold)
BigCatGirl:

A sick attempt to get his "15 minutes" of fame!

Of course he didn't snap ..... (Below threshold)
firethepres:

Of course he didn't snap ... he was reintroduced to the campus by its administrators after having been removed by the police from it in 2005 and committed to a mental institution.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that dumb liberalism played a role here. This person was CLEARLY deranged; the university administration CLEARLY knew that, yet, they put him in a co-ed dorm after he was caught stalking 2 girls.

If the president of VT isn't indicted, I'd be very angry if I was a parent of one of those students who lost their lives because PC correctness prevented the University from fulfilling its mandate to protect students (having denied the students the right to protect themselves by threatening to throw them out of school if caught on campus with a licensed firearm.)

Lawyers will have a FFD on this one.

I like how the right is usi... (Below threshold)
jp2:

I like how the right is using extreme gun violence to push for more guns. I find a lot of the policies here to be off base, but putting more guns into the hands of more teenagers seems to be insane.

So the little Korean rants ... (Below threshold)
BillyBob:

So the little Korean rants about rich people. What a little prick. There are lots of wealthy Koreans who have come here and taken advantage of the opportunity that America presents.

I'd bet he had some warped anti-American Marxist professor like Noam Chomsky which fed his jealousy for successful people. Then again he could have been pissed at wealthy people who don't earn their money like John Kerry and Teddy Kennedy (D-Chivas) of Taxachussets.

It's a shame he just didn't pack up and move back to his Utopia motherland of Korea before taking it out on a bunch of innocent and docile students.

jp2I like how ... (Below threshold)
marc:

jp2

I like how the right is using extreme gun violence to push for more guns. I find a lot of the policies here to be off base, but putting more guns into the hands of more teenagers seems to be insane.

Are you disputing the idea that say... victim #5 (for example) in Norris Hall couldn't have, or wouldn't have put a stop to this nutcakes murderous intentions if they had been armed?

The only policy that is off base, that is becoming increasingly clear, is the school admin failed to do everything possible to ensure the safety of the students they had under their charge. Over A YEAR AGO!

Moreover, whether it be on or off campus police officials and mental health officials that cared for him failed to notify the correct authorities so this guys mental problems were in the database used for background checks to purchase a firearm.

They failed, plain and simple. And I bet with this latest news more than a few lawyers phone banks are lighting up.

Doesnt the left always say ... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

Doesnt the left always say we need to 'feel', and to 'understand'?

Dozens are dead now because of a friggin immigrant who needed a foot in his butt.

we need to seriously start to limit all immigration, legal or not, but, neither the D or the R have the balls to protect US citizens.

Gianni - Don't even start t... (Below threshold)
marc:

Gianni - Don't even start that immigration trash.

Cho spent 8 years in Korea and 15 years living in the U.S. He's more American than you apparently want to admit.

The only part of this issue that is worth considering is why he wasn't a U.S. citizen, he met the time requirements.

However, this is such a minor issue all things considered why bother?

The atheism comment is inte... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

The atheism comment is interesting. "Where is atheism when bad things happen?" Normally the question would be "Where is God when bad things happen?" But I think alot of people are just asking "Where were the police and the detectives when the bad things were happening in Blacksburg yesterday morning, and especially in the 2 hours between the two multiple shootings? They have got to be open to all possibilities, and often the first tip is completely wrong. Remember the white van episode in the Montgomery County rampage in 2002.

"I like how the right is us... (Below threshold)
sickofmorondemocrats:

"I like how the right is using extreme gun violence to push for more guns. I find a lot of the policies here to be off base, but putting more guns into the hands of more teenagers seems to be insane."

Idiotic comment of the day: Most of the victims were adults. One was 76 years old.

Hoo boy! The Democratic talking points are really lame on this issue.

What do you do with a guy l... (Below threshold)
Jo:

What do you do with a guy like this? Who is to say that if he was expelled he wouldn't have gotten even angrier than he was, get some weapons off the internet or black market, come back to campus and kill 20 times more people than he did.

"rants against rich people"... (Below threshold)
Mike:

"rants against rich people"

Well, that settles it. Democrats are to blame.

And what's with this killer... (Below threshold)
Jo:

And what's with this killer spewing hate about Christianity? Hmmmm....now I wonder where he gets stuff like that?

"Are you disputing the idea... (Below threshold)
jp2:

"Are you disputing the idea that say... victim #5 (for example) in Norris Hall couldn't have, or wouldn't have put a stop to this nutcakes murderous intentions if they had been armed?"

Maybe, maybe not. But two points.

A.) think of how many more shootings there would have been with more guns in more teenage hands.

B.) Not very productive (or courteous) to say to the victims/families "You would have been alive if you would have packed some heat."

If you really think having more guns will reduce violence, then we just disagree.

If in this guy's "manifesto... (Below threshold)
Jo:

If in this guy's "manifesto" he ranted against gay people, guess who would be blamed? If he ranted against the government (as in Oklahoma City bombing when Clinton blamed rightwing talk radio) guess who would be blamed? If he ranted against immigrants, guess who would be blamed? If he ranted against Muslims, guess who would be blamed.

Well, he ranted against rich people and Christianity.

Guess there will be no blame for this one. Since the politically correct demographic (and most popular scapegoat amongst the MSM) would not get the blame.

Expelled.a good idea.I'd li... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Expelled.a good idea.I'd like to know what courses this guy was taking, and his grades. The only ones we have heard were a couple of English writing courses, which he bombed.. If we find he was pushed through academically, when he should have been on his rear end..there will be more hell to pay?

To recap for the the Democr... (Below threshold)
letsrecaptheissue:

To recap for the the Democrats, who aren't paying attention:

1) Female victim reports Cho stalking her to campus police and administration. Arrested? Nope.

2) Second femail victim a month later reports Cho stalking her via instant messaging. Arrested? Nope.

3) Award winning poet has Cho removed from her class because he is writing sickly violent plays and she fears for her safety. Not in 22 years of teaching has she ever done this before. Cho removed from school? Nope.

4) Cho involuntarily placed into a mental hosptial from which he is promptly released thanks to laws passed by Democrats requiring his release back into society.

5) Cho promptly placed back into a coed dorm by Democrat school administrators.

6) School threatens to eject any student caught with a legally licensed defensive weapon on campus, even though we have a Constitutional right to bear protective arms which can be used to shoot mass murderers who are not bound by the University's stupid rules.

7) Cho kills female he's stalking and then a Resident Hall administrator.

8) Cho drops by the post office to send some videos and other sundries to Brian Williams.

9) School administrators busy themselves preparing an email to students they will get 2.5 hours later telling them, oh, by the way ... a crazed killer may be on the loose. No need to panic, by the way. "We had no evidence at the time that would lead us to believe anybody else would be hurt." Except, of course, the dead bodies laying about campus and no perp in custody.

9) Cho casually walks back into the campus, which has no video cameras, no security and Barney Effin Fife for a police chief. Cho reasonably concludes hey, it's a target rich environment where nobody can possibly be armed - except of course, him.

10) NBC tampers with the evidence, making copies of it all, then calls the FBI.

11) Brian Williams, Democrat (NY), gets a scoop. Tampered evidence eventually turned over to FBI.

12) University President gets glamour shot with President Bush consoling parents of the kids he killed.

That about sum it up so far?

Academia does not generally... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Academia does not generally expect the real world to seep inside its walls. Consequently, in many cases it is quite ill-prepared to comprehend and deal with it expediently when it does.

jp2:maybe, may... (Below threshold)
marc:

jp2:

maybe, maybe not

Do you see any surprise in these eyes? You won't, I got what was expected, no answer.

A.) think of how many more shootings there would have been with more guns in more teenage hands.

Pardon me for borrowing this: Maybe, maybe not.

B.) Not very productive (or courteous) to say to the victims/families "You would have been alive if you would have packed some heat."

Not very productive (or courteous) to say to the victims/families "You would have been alive if officials for the school admin, to the on campus police, to the mental health officials they failed to do their single most important job... to protect the students."

All of his statements seem ... (Below threshold)

All of his statements seem to be from the psychology of a paranoid schizophrenic who is not taking any medication to control their dangerous bizarre thoughts. Most mentally ill persons are relatively harmless, except for the paranoid schizophrenic who harbors dangerous persecution complex sentiments and may lash out against any imaginary enemy if they are left untreated and not taking antipsychotic drugs to control these weird thoughts.

"I'd bet he had some warped... (Below threshold)
Dan S:

"I'd bet he had some warped anti-American Marxist professor like Noam Chomsky..."

Hmm, I haven't read Nikki Giovanni lately. Why do I have a sneaking suspicion she might fit that mold? Hmm, quick search, voila!

http://www.paulagordon.com/shows/giovanni/

"She decries terrorism and terrorists, includes George W. Bush among the latter, and decries all bullies. She tells the story of why she has a tattoo for Tupak Shakur."

But I DO find it really interesting that his writings (or maybe his participation in class) disturbed her so much. "I was willing to resign before I was going to continue with him," Giovanni said. "There was something mean about this boy."

Yet she has Tupak Shakur tatooed on her body: "Gangsta rapper Shakur, who was killed in 1996 in a drive-by shooting in Las Vegas, offended many with his songs that celebrated violence and misogyny, but he also attracted a wide audience"

Lovely.

I think at the very least t... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

I think at the very least the school authorities had a responsibilty to tell his roomates about this guy.(this roomates knew nothing about his previous history) or the authorities should have ensured Cho had no roommates. Presumably they were picked by lot,..Wasn't there any follow -up? to his counselling He doesn't seem to have made much progress. Isn't the university's main responsiblity the safety of their students. What about Cho's proctor or dorm administrator, didn't they receive advice or warnings about this guy?. Or is everyone tip toeing around egg shells because of concerns for invading the privacy. of already the most private person anyone could imagine. or what I fear worse, they were really afraid of this guy., and no one wanted to risk challenging him. Lots of questions.

Dinesh D'Souza? Is that ha... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Dinesh D'Souza? Is that hack still around? After his last book was completely roasted by the left and the right, I would think that he would lay low for awhile.

it seems to me that the peo... (Below threshold)
slingshot:

it seems to me that the people who think that more people packing heat on campus would have solved this problem watch a lot of hollywood films. i know that the badass posters on the internet would have reacted with perfect aim and coolness under pressure in the face of a homicidal rampage, but obviously the people who died were too weak and deserved to die.

isn't it also possible that more people with guns would have led to more shots fired, and then more chaos if other shooters didn't know who the original shooter was?

let's face it- there is no solution, no way to stop things like this, and no protection. it is simply a risk of living in our society. there are psychos. in some places, it is clearly easy to get a gun. therefore, every once in a while, this is going to happen. that's all. case closed. it's almost not even worth discussing any more. it's like the argument about "who is responsbile for not stopping 9/11?" no one. shit happens. there is no perfect security, and the idea we can protect ourselves from all risks is complete nonsense.

if more guns would really make us safer, wouldn't we already be the safest country on earth?

Considering this piece of r... (Below threshold)

Considering this piece of rectal debris tries to make Klebold and Harris into his personal heroes shows how effed in the head this douche was. And anyone not willing to blame HIM for what he did, ie blaming the NRA/Bush/Virginia, are also cracked in the head.

jp2, You don't have to thin... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

jp2, You don't have to think or even guess. Documented fact (not like the left wing crap you guys spout) is that every place that has loosened the CWP laws so any honest citizen can carry legally has had a rapid drop in violent crime. Criminals like everyone else know they will themselves be shot if they try to hurt someone in these area's. I sleep well in a rural area with a gun in my bedroom and several more around the house. Never more that a few steps from one. I've got the word a few times that some of the outlaws had planned to rob me or my home since I live alone. They were told streight out by others that they will get shot, no questions asked, if they fool around in this area. Not just me, every neighbor is armed and if some of the men are working and someone is prowling the women call a neighbor at all hours of the night. I get up, take a semi-automatic pistol and a pump shotgun if they call me and check the neighborhood. Others do the same. No problem. Neighborhood watch is more than a catchy phrase.

jp2 1) "think of how... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

jp2
1) "think of how many more shootings there would have been with more guns in more teenage hands."

Actually, there wouldn't be "more guns in teenagers hands" as all the "teenagers" we are talking about already have guns and concealed carry permits. So if your theory is correct you should have no trouble finding story after story of these "teenagers" rampant shootings. I don't think I'll hold my breath waiting for you to link it, though...
So your first bullshit straw man goes down in flames.

2) "Not very productive (or courteous) to say to the victims/families 'You would have been alive if you would have packed some heat.'"

Actually, many of the victims are saying that themselves:
http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/80510

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/04/18/2007-04-18_people_dont_stop_killers_people_with_gun.html

So if you'd like to tell the VICTIMS how insensitive they are towards ...um... themselves... go right ahead.
And straw man #2 goes up in flames...

ABC News:A court fou... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

ABC News:
A court found that Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho was "mentally ill" and potentially dangerous. Then it let him go.

In December 2005 -- more than a year before Monday's mass shootings -- a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho presented "an imminent danger to self or others."


I am glad the NRA, Bush and McCain are defending Cho's rights to buy high capacity clip, semi automatic guns.

Scrapiron, Neighborhood wa... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Scrapiron, Neighborhood watch.I like it. I think that was what was missing at Virgina Tech.

Barney2000 I don't believe ... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Barney2000 I don't believe they checked the box 'for others'.If they had, we might not be talking about Cho tonight.

Barney, you goddamn retard.... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

Barney, you goddamn retard. That high-capacity clip bullshit is pure fantasy.

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/223283.php

Course, pretty much ALL of your positions are based on pure fantasy...

Crapiron says I... (Below threshold)
average wizbang poster:

Crapiron says

I sleep well in a rural area with a gun in my bedroom and several more around the house.

Well good for you, I prefer to sleep with women in my bedroom, but I guess you wouldn't know about that, huh?

average wizbang poster,... (Below threshold)
Dan S:

average wizbang poster,

Is there a reason you are afraid to have both women and guns in the room with you while you're sleeping?

Yo, BarneyFifeG2000<p... (Below threshold)
morestupidtalkingpoints:

Yo, BarneyFifeG2000

If he'd been arrested for his previous crimes, he wouldn't have gotten the gun.

Democrat Policies = Massive Death Tolls

So brainy is it OK for ment... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

So brainy is it OK for mentally disturbed dangerous individual to buy 15 or 17 round 9MM Glock but not the high capacity clip 33 round Glock, or are you saying that mentally disturbed dangerous individual can buy the 33 round Glocks, but that was not the case in this situation?

A.) think of how many mo... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

A.) think of how many more shootings there would have been with more guns in more teenage hands.

I'm not much for guns. I've fired them--everything from .22., 9mm, .40. .45. single-barrel shotguns, an M16 and even a AK-47--and, frankly, they scare the shit out of me.

But I'm going to point to the mass murder in Salt Lake City where the killing was ended by an off-duty police officer who had been carrying his weapon--hence "only" 5 were killed instead of the untold number that were saved by the officer with the gun.

Now imagine if that teacher who threw ONLY his body in front of a door to save lives on Monday had been armed. Imagine how many more he could have saved being armed. (God bless him for what he did do.) Or imagine if the janitor were armed. The point is, many others who died might have been saved.

I'm not advocating gun ownership for professors, teachers or students. What I am advocating is that it is NOT the gun but the person behind the gun that we should be concerned about. Seung-Li would have found a way to kill--be it by bomb (think: McVeigh), sword (we had a guy kill several people at our ferry dock one morning with a sword) or whatever--they will find a way to kill. And instead of being namby-pamby about what went wrong in Seung-Li's past or what a miserable life he had growing up, focus on why our mental health system, for the public in gerneral, is so FUBAR it can't hold, restrain or admit someone like Seung Li so he can get the help he/she needs and possibly prevent such incredible carnage and madness.

But is has ZERO to do with the gun.

Barney, I'm saying that you... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

Barney, I'm saying that you flat-out lied that his capacity to buy a high-capacity clip was in any way influenced by Bush, McCain or the NRA.

FLAT OUT LIED.

And you know it, because you're trying to completely change the subject. Instead of the problem being that he bought a high-capacity clip because of the EVIL Bushitler, now the problem is that he had a gun at all.

Of course, it's the pathetic, assenine policies you endorse that allows these people to be identified as dangerous then allowed to roam free... cause god forbid we profile or label anyone, right? If he HAD been labeled and reported to the state as such it would have been flagged when he tried to buy the gun... WHICH IS THE POINT OF WAITING PERIODS. But, again, it'd be rude of me to insist that facts and logic intrude on your fantasy world.

Now that more of his '"Mani... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Now that more of his '"Manifesto' has been released someone should break it down. Tell me the difference in the hate and venum Cho spews and the hate and venum that has came from the democrat party from the top down since 2000. You can check the words from Howling Howie to Peeeloshi, Boxer, Reid, Shrillary, and thousands more politicians and then check KOS, and Huff and Puff for the average democrat hate and venum. The old saying that we reap what we sew is coming home to roost. He repeated the democrat talking points and he sent the manifesto the someone he knew agreed with his hate and venum for America and everything American, NBC. The only shock was that the NYSlimes didn't get an info copy.

A good dig into his words and the words of the democrats will show something too similar not to be a carbon copy. He just carried out the hate due to his mental condition. Could that have been due to BDS also?

Preach enough hate and some... (Below threshold)
Dan S:

Preach enough hate and someone will convert, and the new converts are generally the most fervent.

Embrace a true believer, oh ye who preach what he practiced.

Slingshot:i kn... (Below threshold)
marc:

Slingshot:

i know that the badass posters on the internet would have reacted with perfect aim and coolness under pressure in the face of a homicidal rampage, but obviously the people who died were too weak and deserved to die.

And I know some apologists would take a simple position of allowing concealed weapons and conflate it into presuming we mean college should/would turn into the second coming of the Shootout at the OK Corral.

The obvious flys right past your agenda.

Not every student, not every professor would want or desire to carry. It would be a small percentage and all it would take was one, just one Monday morning to halt this deranged nutjob.

And also note those, a large majority of those, buying and carrying guns would have been well versed in the use and safety in handling them.

barneyRUBBLE:

I am glad the NRA, Bush and McCain are defending Cho's rights to buy high capacity clip, semi...

brainy already excoriated you on the "clip" issue, so let me finish "the job."

The failure is not NRA, Bush and McCain and obviously to the more sane of us they would not advocate what you attempt to assign to them.

The system in place failed. the information that would have prevented any gun from getting in his hands lies with the privacy barrier between the mental health people and law enforcement.

marc-i am neither ... (Below threshold)
slingshot:

marc-

i am neither an apologist (apologizing for what?) nor do i have an agenda. i do think it's pretty stupid to say that the solution is more concealed weapons on college campuses. i also think it's a lot of monday morning quarterbacking to make such claims. besides, did you carry a concealed weapon in college?

i have also read that they don't even allow students to carry concealed weapons on campus in the nation's military academies. i assume they know what they're doing there?

personally, i think i have a nuanced view. i don;t believe in an absolute ban, nor do i believe in an absolute right. however, i definitely don;t think the answer is always "more guns."

Dan, thanks, Most of the wo... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Dan, thanks, Most of the women I know are better shots than I am so I'm real good to them. Wouldn't want to be done in by my own gun. If the average idiot had lived in as many states and as many counties as I have he would appreciate America. I sure do and the freedom's that go with life here.
Cho's hate and venum is nothing but a repeat of what we've heard from the democrats since 2000. He just took the hate a little further, which we can expect more of. How many colleges were closed today by threats from the anti-American crowd? BDS has turned to total insanity as evidenced by some of the comments on here.
My nephew is a grad of VT (PHD) and now an engineering professor at another major college. He was really hurt by the murders at VT.

An armed student prevented more murders at the Law school in SWVa ( I have worked in the same town) a couple of years ago. The weapon was in his vehicle and he was able to retrieve it and capture the shooter who gave up immediately when confronted with a weapon. People, even hardened criminals don't like to face an armed citizen, but will easily kill 32 unarmed ones. Cops do a good job but most times are 5 to 20 minutes away in my area. At VT they were probably within 2 minutes of the building but still arrived too late.

Slingshot:did ... (Below threshold)
marc:

Slingshot:

did you carry a concealed weapon in college?

I've carried a concealed weapon everywhere since the age of 18 with the exception of boot camp and 20 years in the Navy. Then I didn't have to hide it, I rode on it.

"I like how the right is us... (Below threshold)

"I like how the right is using extreme gun violence to push for more guns. I find a lot of the policies here to be off base, but putting more guns into the hands of more teenagers seems to be insane."
Posted by: jp2 at April 18, 2007 06:05 PM

Not pushing for more guns, just pushing for the right to be able to carry the guns that are already owned.

When I was in college I was... (Below threshold)

When I was in college I was on the pistol team. We had a firing range on campus in the basement of the Old Field House. (Small caliber only.) Other people on the team brought their personal weapons to show the rest of us. Army ROTC had .22 target rifles. (I won a turkey from them one Thanksgiving.) Our team had .22 pistols.

Did anyone *carry* on campus? Who knows. They may have. I wouldn't expect most people to bother.

I'm reasonably certain that no one *worried* about it.

Also, *College students are not teenagers!* Not past Freshman year. What people are pushing is for people who have gotten concealed carry permits to be allowed to carry while on campus. What is the age limit for concealed carry permits? A little bit of looking seems like it's usually 21 and almost always requires proof you went to classes.

If the notification laws ha... (Below threshold)
The Listkeeper:

If the notification laws had been followed, then Cho's encounters with the mental health officials would have popped up on his background checks, disqualifying him from making his purchases from legal gun dealers...and the attempt would have been red flagged and forwarded to the police in his area.

Where the rubber meets the ... (Below threshold)
kim:

Where the rubber meets the road, there are millions who acquire a mental health diagnosis, regularly. Who decides which of these with a new diagnosis get reported to 'lists' of the ungunnable?

Roy Crouse, the physician who turned him loose(I think), probably made a mistake. But a patient as organized as Cho could have fooled most doctors. I'm guessing Cho fooled Crouse, who probably had several apparently more dangerous patients to deal with that day, and then failed to follow up, adequately. Where would he have been marked by the mental health system for reference to the police department or even to a weapon ownership database?

In retrospect, this was easy to prevent. But twenty similar scenarios are released every day. NB, no data for that, just a wild guess. Furthermore, the task given the doctors is impossible. Predicting course in psychosis is like directing chaos. Disorganized, thoroughly psychotic patients are turned loose regularly from ERs because the standard for being a threat to oneself or others is fairly high, and must be demonstrated repeatedly in court.

Balancing of rights is always difficult, except I guess it wasn't in Baghdad, back in the pre-Bush days.
================================

>And the school let him bac... (Below threshold)

>And the school let him back on campus?

Yeah. Can't lose that tuition money. Might hurt enrollment, and TV money (VT has a pretty decent football program.)

How many people calling for... (Below threshold)
Bo:

How many people calling for "more gun control" are willing to post a large, conspicuous sign designating their home (or person, or vehicle) a "gun free zone"?

Why not?

Guns don't deter violence, they foster more violence, right?

At any rate there's two questions that need to be answered:
What caused it?
What could have stopped it?

On the issue of cause, it is not unremarkable that his "manifesto" and videos depict him "fighting the good fight" against the most vilified group in American society, the "priviliged majority." Perhaps the fertilizer that allowed this sick mind to develop into a homicidlal monster is solidly at the center of our "politically correct" society.

What could have been done differently? Do a little research into school shootings. I can think of a few that were stopped when one person or another retrieved a firearm and confronted the perpetrator (El Cajon, CA; Pearl, MS; Appalacian School of Law, VA), and one of the worst (Columbine) was certainly made worse because the armed "good guys" stayed outside.

Meanwhile, since Utah revamped its concealed-carry laws 11 years ago and did NOT exclude school zones as "gun free," it has had ZERO incidents of gun misuse in schools. Interestingly, a search for school shootings in Utah reveals no such events.

No, there's no way to know whether a few armed students or faculty members at VA Tech could have made a difference either in the genesis or outcome of this event. There's no denying, however, that the right person, with the right tools (read: gun) at the right place at the right time could have put a hasty end to this (the RA who responded unarmed to the sound of gunshots comes to mind). There's also no denying that the laws so severely restricting concealed carry made it virtually impossible for the right person to have the right tools at that place, at that time.

So while there's no guarantee that allowing students and faculty to be armed would have stopped it, the current law does pretty much guarantee that students in thousands of educational institutions nationwide are sheep awaiting a slaughter.

One major point I haven't s... (Below threshold)
sean nyc/aa:

One major point I haven't seen mentioned:
The guy was crazy. If he had ranted that his reason for killing everyone was pies in the face, would we blame clowns? Of course not, he's crazy, terrorists are crazy. They kill without regard for their victims and for reasons which only make sense to them. Everyone is reading way too much into what he's saying, which is exactly what he wanted when he sent the package to NBC.

Second, I consider myself fairly liberal, but I agree that there certainly should have been more done by the school or the state with respect to him being institutionalized. One thing certainly could have been to have those records come up when he tried to buy the gun. Another could have been to expel him. Hopefully we can learn from this event to prevent it from happening again, but it should not be a strictly partisan issue.

Finally, I find it pretty humorous that Disouza is mentioned. If you do want to read into what this maniac said, then look no further than Disouza himself as a prime source for that rationale. Disouza said liberals brought about terrorist attacks on this country for all their hedonism, and that is the exact justification Cho used. Apparently, Disouza, and Wizbang, is completely unaware of the irony.

Why does your beating on co... (Below threshold)
kim:

Why does your beating on conservatives look onanistic?
==================================

If you depend on reading Di... (Below threshold)
Publicus:

If you depend on reading Dinesh D'Souza to understand Richard Dawkins ideas and opinions, you will never understand them.

Oh, good. My day would not... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Oh, good. My day would not have been complete without Kim sending me to m-w.com. :)

Could the massacre that too... (Below threshold)

Could the massacre that took place at Virgina Tech Monday morning be the result of a life-long speech impediment -- and the ridicule of classmates?

Read the linked blog for evidence and my hypothesis! BTW, I would post it here, but the info is too long for a comment.
http://newzreviews.blogspot.com/

Cho 'god rest his soul' nee... (Below threshold)
Aoife:

Cho 'god rest his soul' needed to loosen up and have a laugh. esctacy would have sorted out his shyness and debilitating depression.

He also needed to get out of the infantile college environment and stop trying to impress uptight/white/capitalist/rich/competitive people. He should have sought out the company of non judgemental but poor/black/coloured/oriental type people who would've been more accepting of him and with whom he could relax and have a laugh. Unfortunately as a child he had no choice but to follow his parents to a materially rewardin but miserable life in america, he probably didn't have the money to emigrate to North Korea or even south korea, god help him.




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