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I'm just askin'...

One of the more despicable tactics in public discourse today is what I like to call "innuendo by inquiry." You can get away with all sorts of wild accusations and plant all sorts of vile seeds by simply couching the allegation in the form of a question.

It's despicable, but I can see its appeal. It's great for lazy people, and it's almost always guaranteed to be fun.

So I'm going to give it a whirl.

Apparently, last night Bill O'Reilly did a bit on George Soros and his funding of radical leftist groups, including Media Matters For America. (I say "apparently" because I didn't see it myself, but the evidence it happened is pretty definitive.)

Naturally, Media Matters doesn't care for this kind of attention. It's in the finger-pointing business; we're supposed to be looking at what it wants us to look at, not the finger-pointers themselves. Their most visible advocate in the blogosphere, Oliver Willis, who is "a member of the Technology and Online Community Department at Media Matters for America," immediately threw a hissy.

Now here's where I depart from what I know and engage in rampant speculation, carefully couched not as accusations, but questions.

1) Media Matters for America is, in their own words, a "Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media." As a registered not-for-profit organization, I believe their books are required to be open. O'Reilly says that they get their money from Soros, laundered through his puppet groups. They say that's laughable. Why doesn't someone just dig up their financial statements and put numbers and percentages on this whole thing?

2) Willis gets very bent out of shape when someone accuses him of using his blog to shill for Media Matters. He says that it's simply complimentary, that his blogging is entirely his own and has nothing to do with his employer. Yet why do so many of his postings go up during regular business hours? I know I do the same, but I write my stuff in the morning and schedule it to publish at set times during the day. Does Oliver do the same, or is he blogging from the office, on company time? What is his employer's policy on using company resources and company time for personal matters? Or do they turn a blind eye because they see his blogging as part and parcel of his job?

3) To be perfectly blunt, I'm at least three times the writer Willis is. How do I get on the gravy train? I'm tired of living paycheck to paycheck.

Again, none of these questions contain a single verifiable fact (unless otherwise unavoidable) and are simple inquiries and opinions and vague notions. Anyone who says otherwise is itching for a fight.


Comments (128)

"Web-based, not-for-prof... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

"Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media." [emphasis added]


This statement is curious. Are they saying that, by omission, they find Liberal misinformation acceptable ?

Curious.

That one word alone ought t... (Below threshold)
kim:

That one word alone ought to pull their tax-free status.
==================================

I thought proggs loved payi... (Below threshold)
nikkolai:

I thought proggs loved paying taxes. Oh, that's just for the little guys...

Don't be silly. Media Matt... (Below threshold)
cirby:

Don't be silly. Media Matters doesn't get money from Soros - they get money from someone else, who gets their money from Soros...

Mr. O'Leilly needs to stick... (Below threshold)
jFO:

Mr. O'Leilly needs to stick with his loofah fetish and stay away from female reproductive charts like the one he showed last night.

Liberal misinformation acce... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

Liberal misinformation acceptable ?

Is there any other kind?

Can you imagine how much safer big blue cities would be if 'Tass' would make an issue out of a city like Philly averaging over 1 murder a day in 07?

How many murders so far this year in other big blue cities like NY, Newark, Detriot, DC, St Louis, Houston, Nawlins, Oakland, LA, etc etc etc and why isnt this a national news story? Oops, more liberal misinformation right? if they dont report it, they it mustnt be true.

How do I get on the grav... (Below threshold)
Pug:

How do I get on the gravy train?

Coming from your perspective, I would recommend you contact the offices of Richard Mellon Scaife (who, of course, is never mentioned by Bill O'Reilly).

YEA! Now we can all agree t... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

YEA! Now we can all agree that political conspiracies DO exist; it's not just red vs blue, or from which end to crack the egg, but there is indeed Big Money and Unseen Hands manipulating people and events!
Washington said it, Jackson said it, Lincoln said, FDR said it. But now that O'Reilly says it, it's finally True. Whatever, and say "hey!" to life!

Now about Project for a New... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

Now about Project for a New American Century....

the bigger point O'Reilly i... (Below threshold)
jp:

the bigger point O'Reilly is making is not just that Soros is the puppet of Media matters, but that the Mainstream media read media matters to do their reporting, so by extension he's pulling the strings of Mass media.

Bryand: "YEA! Now we can al... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Bryand: "YEA! Now we can all agree that political conspiracies DO exist;"

hmmm.

Conspiracy: "an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot."

So, Richard Mellon Scaife (who is worth about 1/8th of what the convicted felon Soros is worth), openly gives a couple million to the American Spectator for investigative reports on the Clintons in the 90's, and the PNAC, which openly lists it's members, it's beliefs, it's intent, and it's reports, is now a "conspiracy", according to Bryand.

Bryand, you keep using this word "conspiracy", I do not think it means what you think it means.

BTW, I'm anxiously awaiting for the next scenario wherein you use PRAVDA as your substantive basis.

Thats always fun.

jp, spot on.It's h... (Below threshold)
Drago:

jp, spot on.

It's hardly a conspiracy.

It's just clear that Soros has established a large footprint in the MSM.

Of course, Bryand will have a link to Pravda or the state organ in Havanna or Caracas to prove us wrong.

I'm strongly of the opinion... (Below threshold)
kim:

I'm strongly of the opinion that Soros's money has perverted the progressive debate by debasing it. His efforts have chained the debate to a market of dollars and not of ideas. Soros has made a lot of money debasing currency markets, but he's not likely to garner political accomplishment by debasing the marketplace of ideas.

I call them Soros's Apprentice, and I forgive them for they know not what they do. George should know better, and I wonder why he doesn't.
===========================

As a registered no... (Below threshold)
jpe:
As a registered not-for-profit organization, I believe their books are required to be open.

Sources of funding are generally not disclosed on financial statements (I've been doing 501c3 financials for years and have never seen it), and are the only section of the federal form 990 not disclosed to the public.


Private foundations disclose their grantees, so you could find who and how much on Media Matters gets from PFs. They're easily accessed via Guidestar.org

All this just to see how much Soros grants to media matters seems a little silly, but everyone has their obsessive conspiracy theory mongering.

His disinformation tactics ... (Below threshold)
kim:

His disinformation tactics are Stalinist. They do work.
============================

there is a post in the Hota... (Below threshold)
jp:

there is a post in the Hotair thread, about Orson Scott Cards new book "Empire" which is apparently about a Soros like figure taking over a political party like this. Card is of course a card carrying democrat who is absolutely disgusted with them and their misinformation campaign.

drago: It's a conspi... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

drago:
It's a conspiracy or it's an accident. That's the two schools of historical thought. Take your choice. You can rectify things by one, or chase your tail with the other.

Oh, bD, your commentary bel... (Below threshold)
kim:

Oh, bD, your commentary belies your facade of cynicism. How cute.
================================

Why are you guys so upset w... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Why are you guys so upset with Media Matters? Is it because they expose so much misinformation? I wouldn't think O'Reilly would want people to even see the site. Can you tell me any lies that MM has told?

Bryand: "It's a conspiracy ... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Bryand: "It's a conspiracy or it's an accident."

Hilarious.

Any "facts" behind this comment? Or did you get this from Vlad Putin's website?


Bryand: "That's the two schools of historical thought."

Beyond hilarious. "Two schools of HISTORICAL thought"!!!

Sorry, It's going to take about 5 minutes for me to stop laughing.

Bryand: "Take your choice."

Sorry Bryan, just because you lack the capacity to see other options, doesn't mean the rest of us have to be locked into your ridiculously limited set of choices.

But thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning.


Ozett: "Can you tell me any... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Ozett: "Can you tell me any lies that MM has told?"

Ozett is probably a dopey lefty, but at least he/she has asked the most relevant question.

Look at it with this perspe... (Below threshold)
kim:

Look at it with this perspective. The energy in the progressive, and far left anti-war movement is there because of Soros money, surely not wholly or even in large part. But what part is there is artificial support. It's analogous to fundamentally unearned oil wealth funding an anti-enlightenment extreme political movement. The apparent strength of the resulting enterprise is false; it's fundamentally weaker than it appears because it's been erected rather than manufactured. Words fail; it's ersatz.
===============================

kim, your pithiness belies ... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

kim, your pithiness belies a lack of expertise.
(Sorry.)

Well, ozett, since they are... (Below threshold)
kim:

Well, ozett, since they are tax-free, my labor supports their efforts, which is biased. I don't care if they are liars; they are thieves.

Well, I do care about the lying, too.
===================

How do I get on the grav... (Below threshold)
mantis:

How do I get on the gravy train? I'm tired of living paycheck to paycheck.

Two words: Pajamas Media. They're raking in the bucks, right?

Right?

Media Matters differs from ... (Below threshold)
not the senator:

Media Matters differs from the Brent Bozell's conservative Media Research Center how? Don't they do exactly the same functions just from different political biases?

I'm sorry, I can't get too riled up about this one. Sounds like just fair play to me. I think Bill O'Reilly just get's bent out of shape when his own words are used against him.

Toughen up Bill, people don't like whiners.

bD, I claim expertise at ve... (Below threshold)
kim:

bD, I claim expertise at very little. Haven't you noticed this is all opinion?
======================================

FYI: there are, of course, ... (Below threshold)
jpe:

FYI: there are, of course, large conservative foundations that give to conservative think tanks, and the largest conservative donors to 527s outspent Soros in the 2006 election by a factor of at least 5:1 (much larger, IIRC, but my memory isn't what it used to be)

I was highly amused by the ... (Below threshold)
kim:

I was highly amused by the pithiness of your historical theory. So do you feel victimized or victimizing?
==================================

And the one that made the d... (Below threshold)
kim:

And the one that made the difference, jpe, hardly spent any money at all on its little wildcat, but boy did it swiftly hit a gusher.
=================================

"Sorry Bryan, just because ... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"Sorry Bryan, just because you lack the capacity to see other options, doesn't mean the rest of us have to be locked into your ridiculously limited set of choices_drago"

drago:
Something happens on purpose, or
Something happens by accident.

Is there a third way? If so, what is it? (Take your time)

Media Matters differs from ... (Below threshold)
jp:

Media Matters differs from the Brent Bozell's conservative Media Research Center how?
---

Differ by Lies and distortions and ommissions, many of each daily. On top of that, the mainstream media read Media Matters and it influences their reporting, unlike MRC.

Kim, in regard to the tax-f... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Kim, in regard to the tax-free issue, do you feel the same way about Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell? I believe they run tax-free organizations and they are both blatantly partisan.

Drago, I'm only a lefty right now because I believe incompetent crooks are running our country. I'm okay with much of the conservative philosphy....whatever the hell that is these days.

Hee, hee, bD, most things h... (Below threshold)
kim:

Hee, hee, bD, most things happen because of a combination of causes. There are not only three ways; there are an infinite number of ways to explain causation.
=============================

Incompetent? Domestically ... (Below threshold)
kim:

Incompetent? Domestically and internationally we are doing better this decade than last.

Criminal? There is no comparison between this administation and the last one.

You've been hornswoggled Ozett. The corporate media(MSM) is lying to you.
===========================

It's not my theory. I think... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

It's not my theory. I think it was best expounded by Gibbon. (Of course, history proves its validity. It's an either/or proposition. Circular vs linear is just philosophizing)
http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/home.html

Oh, here's the <a href="htt... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Oh, here's the O'Reilly segment in question, in case you haven't seen it. It's very amusing.

I believe incompetent crook... (Below threshold)
jp:

I believe incompetent crooks are running our country.
-----

bigger question, what pulled your strings to make you think that? actual actions, or lies, distortions and ommissions from puppet masters like Soros about motivations behind alleged actions? All the war for oil stuff, should be shot out the window at fact first contracts went to china and russia, yet the charge by the left still exist.

Well at least you're admitt... (Below threshold)

Well at least you're admitting now that it's just pathetic jealousy. LOL.

there is absolutely no requ... (Below threshold)
fyi dude:

there is absolutely no requirement that a 501(c)(3) organization's finances are available to the public. you won't find it in the tax code or anywhere else. no nfp is required by law to publicly disclose their finances, so don't turn blue holding your breath and waiting to find published info.

Top 527 contributors in 200... (Below threshold)
jp:

Top 527 contributors in 2004, the very top are all lib/commies
http://opensecrets.org/527s/527indivs.asp?cycle=2004

first Repub is #5 at only 9 million. Compare that to Soros and company in the previous 4 spots, at over 75 Million

That one word alon... (Below threshold)
jpe:
That one word alone ought to pull their tax-free status.

And then we'd pull 501c3 status for Heritage Foundation, Cato, etal.

<a href="http://www.opensec... (Below threshold)
jpe:

Top contributors in the 2006 elections. Top two conservatives outspent Soros 4:1.

jp-Talk about lies... (Below threshold)
not the senator:

jp-

Talk about lies and omissions, your own link shows the more recent 2006 527 contributers to be led by Swift Boat funder Bob Perry, who gave 3 times the amount Soros did.

How to cherry pick the truth there jp. I guess Media Matters isn't the only one spinning facts, are they?

Gosh, where to begin? Under... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Gosh, where to begin? Under Bush the Twin Towers get knocked down, the Space Shuttle falls out of the sky, a major city gets flooded, we invade two countries and never catch Osama bin Laden or the anthrax killer (remember all that "make no mistake" crap?), the power grid goes out on the East Coast, the housing market collapses, the army is exhausted, is forced to lower its recruiting standards, etc. It just goes on and on. Putting unqualified cronies into positions of power....remember Brownie? Notice all the e-coli outbreaks lately? Hmmmm...I wonder if another unqualified political appointee might be pulling strings at the FDA?

Kim, we're not doing better; the country is broke. Go check out Bush's record. All his businesses failed. He was bailed out time and again by his dad's friends. The man never even had a real job.

So far no one has given me a Media Matters lie. I sometimes think they print trite and pointless pieces, but from what I've seen they clearly document the lies of the other side. No wonder you guys are in full throttle attack. Your side is being exposed constantly.

Whether that Oliver Willis ... (Below threshold)
kim:

Whether that Oliver Willis is a sock-puppet or not, it's ersatz.
=================================

Hearing Semanticleo defined... (Below threshold)
kim:

Hearing Semanticleo defined as a Willisite settled it for me. Double, double, toil and trouble.
=====================

not the senator-I ... (Below threshold)
jp:

not the senator-

I just looked at 2006, off year election, why don't you tell everyone the dollar amounts for that versus 2004(presidential election). Plus the fact thats on 527 money, not 501(3)(c)

the point is now the money ... (Below threshold)
jp:

the point is now the money is going into fake 'non profits' 501(3c)'s instead of the 527's, that are then taking the money and laundering it into other groups like Media Matters. Basic Money Laundering, though legal thanks to McCain Feingold.

I'm almost positive (99% su... (Below threshold)
jpe:

I'm almost positive (99% sure) conservatives outspent liberals in donations to 501c3s by a wide margin. Stealth PAC's site has the details if you're interested.

9/11 can be laid more at th... (Below threshold)
kim:

9/11 can be laid more at the feet of Clinton's National Security team than of Bush's.

Bush didn't bring the hurricane nor did he build the levees.

Space Shuttle? Bush? Oh, you are just too biased to think.

Fergit it. Just watch.
==========

"So far no one has given me... (Below threshold)
jp:

"So far no one has given me a Media Matters lie."

as Rosie would say, google it. There are so many to begin to list I don't know where to start or take the time to do it. One recent one that comes to mind is of the ommission variety, Chris Matthews slurred Rudy Guilani as "a type of fascist", they had story on this and decided to delete the comment from their transcript while keeping the words before it and after it. One of the big criticisms is how they take things out of context to smear people like Limbaugh and O'reilly which is a lie in and of itself and Orwellian.

watch dog sites list of top... (Below threshold)
jp:

watch dog sites list of top 10 lies by media matters:

http://mediamatters.blogsome.com/

They are Stalinist, these are Stalinist Tactics at work. Its no coincedence that both Stalin and Soros are on the left.

Much like your taking the c... (Below threshold)
not the senator:

Much like your taking the contributor stats out of context?

C'mon! Everybody plays that game, right and left, don't imply that Media Matters is the sole or most egregious practicioner of the craft. I'm not buying it.

Who cares where they get th... (Below threshold)
TeeGee:

Who cares where they get their money, honestly? It doesn't make any difference in the scheme of things- they do what they do. If O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Malkin and Coulter don't want to be accountable for what they say, then don't be so damned offensive.

"Domestically and internati... (Below threshold)
David I:

"Domestically and internationally we are doing better this decade than last."

Five years ago I went to (gasp!!) France. A dollar was worth 1.34 euro. Today, it's the other way around. I look back with nostalgia, too, on the days (only a couple of years in ago) when the British Pound cost ONLY $1.50. It's two bucks plus now.

During that period, despite the precipitous decline in the dollar, we have continued to break records for trade deficits. I thought a cheap dollar was supposed to make American goods, and American investments, quite popular?

At least some of this decline may be reasonably blamed on a rise in international skepticism when it comes to the soundness of American investments (certainly not all).

Meanwhile, real salaries -- the median, not the average -- have been stagnant. Job growth has occurred largely in the bottom sectors of the pay scales, and often include no benefits, whereas they would have a decade ago. Simultaneously medical insurance rates have skyrocketed and more people live without any sort of health insurance whatsoever.

Crime rates are rising. Housing prices are declining. Loan defaults are increasing. Local and municipal taxes are rising.

Tell us again how we're doing better domestically and internationally?

Kim, really 9-11 is Clinton... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Kim, really 9-11 is Clinton's fault?

Remember when Fox made the mistake of having Clinton on with Chris Wallace? They had to yank that clip from Youtube because we all learned that Condi Rice had had an emergency meeting with George Tenet in July 2001 about the al-Qaeda threat that she never reported to the 9/11 Commission? (She had forgotten about that of course because she didn't act on it.). We never would have found that out if Fox hadn't been stupid enough to think they could outfox the Big Dog.

And you think I'm hornswoggled by the corporate media? Why would the corporate media be liberal? That's just stupid. Corporations do nice things now and again, but by their very nature they are not liberal and I wouldn't expect them to be. I'm a full-blown capitalist in case your wondering, I just don't believe the Bushies are helping us at all.

I looked at that Media Matters Lies link. I still didn't see any lies. I saw things that could be interpreted in another way, but not flat out lies. You know, like Fox does. Remmember when they claimed Obama was raised as a Muslim but they never really did their research? Remember? Then he called the liars out by name? That was really cool.

Not that it matters so much... (Below threshold)
jim:

Not that it matters so much in this discussion, but I feel compelled to correct this point upstream:

Orson Scott Card is of course a card carrying democrat who is absolutely disgusted with them and their misinformation campaign.

Unless the poster was being sarcastic, this is WAY off. Orson Scott Card is not only a conservative but a devout mormon; thinks abortion is murder, homosexuality is evil perversion, etc. etc. So in that 'Empire' book, you are reading the conservative party line from a conservative.

Much like your taking the c... (Below threshold)
jp:

Much like your taking the contributor stats out of context?

C'mon! Everybody plays that game, right and left, don't imply that Media Matters is the sole or most egregious practicioner of the craft. I'm not buying it.

Posted by: not the senator


I took no such thing "out of context", that is a LIE by you. I posted the last Presidential Year's 527 donations, which in fact dwarf the off year election you are talking about.

the "right" does not do what the Far left does. That is just silly and unfounded. They literally piece together sentences to make them say what they want them to say at Media Matters, and even if the right did do things at bad as Media Matters, it doesn't makes its way into News reporting like Media Matters is doing!

Unless the poster was being... (Below threshold)
jp:

Unless the poster was being sarcastic, this is WAY off. Orson Scott Card is not only a conservative but a devout mormon; thinks abortion is murder, homosexuality is evil perversion, etc. etc. So in that 'Empire' book, you are reading the conservative party line from a conservative.

Posted by: jim

----

He is a democrat, not a republican and doesn't agree with republicans on many things. He takes issue with how the Dems politicize literally everything in their groupthink land they've created for themselves. Research him

Ozett,You may clai... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Ozett,

You may claim whatever you wish, but it is abundantly clear that you are a far, far lefitist who lives in a fabricated reality. You only see what you want to see and the truth is irrelevant to you.

You are new at this site, but your comments are very, very old. They've all been debunked time and again. Try the Huffington Post. Over there they love to eat the shit you're trying to feed us here.

"Orson Scott Card is not on... (Below threshold)
jp:

"Orson Scott Card is not only a conservative but a devout mormon; thinks abortion is murder,"

one other point, Harry Reid is a mormon and democrat like Card. Harry Reid came out last week talking about how horrible it was the SCOTUS upheld a law against partial birth Murder and it was the fault of Bush and Sam Alito. This law they upheld, HARRY REID FREAKING VOTED IN FAVOR OF. If we had an honest media he would be tarred and feathered. That said, that tells you all you need to know about the National Democratic Party in this country and what they are doing to it.

Sure, Ozett, 9/11 is Clinto... (Below threshold)
kim:

Sure, Ozett, 9/11 is Clinton's fault. Why do you think Berger had to steal original marginalia from the purview of historians.

And the 9/11 Commission, too.

But see, you've been hornswoggled. I used 'corporate media' as a joke. It's the leftist term for what rightist call the 'mainstream media'.
=======================

P. Bunyan, while I lean lef... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

P. Bunyan, while I lean left on many issues, I'm not entirely a liberal. For example, I'm opposed to gun control. If Rush Limbaugh or some other drug addict type were to break into my home trying to find drugs, I'd have no qualms about using my weapon to defend myself.

Harry Reid came ou... (Below threshold)
jpe:
Harry Reid came out last week talking about how horrible it was the SCOTUS

He did? I only recall him saying that many of the Senate democrates regret Alito's presence on the bench.

Perhaps you could correct me if I'm wrong? Y'know, put some of those mad media crit skillz to use.

Kim, I may surprise you her... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Kim, I may surprise you here, but I'll give you the Sandy Berger thing. I find his actions to be very disturbing and I think they merit further investigation.

I do think it weird though that Bush and Cheney refused to testify under oath about 9/11 and they insisted that they get to testify together while holding hands.

David I, a wonderfully stro... (Below threshold)
kim:

David I, a wonderfully strong economy, al Qaeda neutered. We are looking at the same glass. To your health.
==================================

Ozett, I don't think either... (Below threshold)
kim:

Ozett, I don't think either team was blameless.
=============================

I agree Kim. I agree. I got... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

I agree Kim. I agree. I gotta go for a while. Hope I don't get too ripped up.

He did? I only recall him s... (Below threshold)
jp:

He did? I only recall him saying that many of the Senate democrates regret Alito's presence on the bench.

Perhaps you could correct me if I'm wrong? Y'know, put some of those mad media crit skillz to use.

Posted by: jpe
-----------------------------

No he said "us" implying him and the rest of them.

Senator Reid replied:

"I would only say that this is the only decision a lot of us wish that Alito weren't there and O'Connor were there."


His spokesman had a followup on it: "It's no surprise that he prefers O'Connor to Alito,"

really, O'Connor who would presumably strike down a law he voted for he prefers on the issue at question, partial birth abortion. Something they don't even do in Europe, but here the Dems see no evil in dividing america through politicization of literally everything.

What you find in Media Matt... (Below threshold)

What you find in Media Matters day in, day out are reports that point out the obvious literal falsity of what Limbaugh and O'Reilly and others have claimed. Media Matters does surprisingly little editorializing and need to do little because sticking to the facts suffices to refute the nonsense and ignorance produced by the right-wing talk machine.

Claiming that George Soros is the evil genius behind Media Matters is just another one of the mass-produced lies of the right wing. It will play well to the base, who, despite its advertised support for Israel, has a poorly camoflauged hankering to blame everything on some rich Jew or other. Soros is simply an update of Jew Suss.

The real bad news for the Conservatives is that the big web-based liberal outfits aren't astroturf. Media Matters and Move On and the rest are supported by an extremely wide base of contributors. While it may be effective propaganda to portray these movements as the puppets of sinister billionaires, it's just another story concocted to play to the cheap seats. Boy you guys do a lot of that.

Kim, not the "Sandy Berger ... (Below threshold)
jim:

Kim, not the "Sandy Berger stole originals to distort the historic record" bs again.

Woo.

1) Berger only took copies from the Archives. These copies had his own notes that he wrote on them.

2) Some have mentioned suspicion, in that Berger was left alone at some points while in the archives. Suspicion is not proof.

3) No one has mentioned any particular thing that Berger might be trying to cover for Clinton. Once again, suspicion is not proof.

SO you can think that Berger was up to dirty deeds there; just please be accurate. At least say you suspect him of this with no firm evidence.

JH, do you know that George... (Below threshold)
kim:

JH, do you know that George Soros spends nearly half a billion dollars on public policy yearly, and sneers at the Gates's spending as 'easy' work? Insofar as his money has impacted the debate, it has degraded it; I can't say the same for Bill's money.
==============================

Orson Scott Card is a Democ... (Below threshold)
jim:

Orson Scott Card is a Democrat, yes. Also, he's a conservative. Democrat doesn't automatically = liberal.

Card's said that he doesn't like the Democrats since they oppose Bush. He's written articles praising Bush, bashing John Kerry, stating Zell Miller will save the Democrat party, etc. etc.

That, and he's a Mormon, and he thinks abortion is murder and homosexuality is evil.

The only reason he isn't voting Republican, he says, is that he believes the GOP continues to support racism in the South. That's the religious part in him coming through, in my opinion.

Oh, and Card thinks Fox New... (Below threshold)
jim:

Oh, and Card thinks Fox News is good. Which makes it especially hard to think of him as a liberal, IMHO.

You are out of date, jim. ... (Below threshold)
kim:

You are out of date, jim. No one is certain what was taken except Berger, but it is pretty certain that he took copies of national security documents that had original, contemporaneous, marginalia by members of Clinton's team, including Clinton. I'm hopeful that he didn't find all the marginalia. There must have been a bunch, but maybe only a very few smoking guns.

Historians will make a pretty good guess, and justify it. As a class, they are horrified. They will not treat Berger well. Why are you?
==================================

Perhaps I've missed some po... (Below threshold)
dieudonne:

Perhaps I've missed some point here.. I simply don't understand the hoopla surrounding questions of whether or not Soros funds Media Matters.

The foetid mummy of Tutenkhamun could be resurrected and start pouring money into Media Matters and it wouldn't have one iota of bearing on WHAT Media Matters says ... Who pays the bills has no bearing on the substance of statements made ...

MM's statements stand or fall on their own weight or lack thereof ... speculation of this sort simply seems fruitless ... all these comments and energy have been spent on what? Speculation about funding and supercilious liberal baiting rather than directly confronting the veracity of MM statements ...

Even the person who flatly asked for evidence of MM lies was referred to an outside site and no direct discussion of the substance of MM statements happened...

C'mon guys .. I -WANT- to agree with you and I'm left with the impression that you are little more than nattering pillocks more interested in back-room gossip than direct confrontations...

Kim,Evidently, a h... (Below threshold)
David I:

Kim,

Evidently, a half-glass-full mentality, to quote your dear leader? Half full of cool-aid, I venture.

Are you saying the economy is better now than it was under Clinton -- or am I misconstruing? That might be true for the wealthy, but it doesn't extend farther.

And may I quote you about Al Qaeda being "neutered" next time there's a debate about emboldening our enemies by leaving Iraq?

"It is pretty certain" that aliens control the mainstream media in order to create a liberal elitist slave race.

To your health -- hope you find it soon.

What is the point of this '... (Below threshold)
JG:

What is the point of this 'inquiry'? Media Matters is a nonprofit, so it accepts donations. Most nonprofits will accept donations from just about anybody, outrageous exceptions (e.g. the KKK or something) aside. Soros is ideologically sympathetic to Media Matters and he's rich, so he donates money to them. Where, exactly, is the chicanery?

What if we even grant that MM is controlled by Soros - what then? How is that different than Fox News, or the Weekly Standard, or the Heritage Foundation?

MM can't force the "MSM" to cover anything, they can just lobby them the same way blogs right and left do. This is such a non-issue that is only exposes O'Reilly's increasing derangement.

"innuendo by inquiry." A p... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

"innuendo by inquiry." A perfect example of that is in congress today. Even the family of Pat Tillman is tearing his memory as a silver star hero apart and putting him in history as a 'victim', or worse, maybe a coward. Poor old Jessica Lynch is out of the headlines so she's in congress degrading herself and her comrades for a 'picture' in the news.

The more the democrat congress is left to it's own the more Americans they will destroy. Selling out to the Soros socialism/communism wing of the dhimmi party ia a small part of their traitorism.

How many prople in Iraq were killed by Dirty Harry Reids comments this weekend? Hundreds and only a fool will deny that his words are encouragement to the enemyand result in death. Hang in there, the more you kill the sooner we can remove your only opposition, the American soldiers.

Can someone give an example... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

Can someone give an example (or a link to one) of the mainstream media taking the Media Matters line on some story or issue?

How many prople in Iraq ... (Below threshold)
JG:

How many prople in Iraq were killed by Dirty Harry Reids comments this weekend? Hundreds and only a fool will deny that his words are encouragement to the enemyand result in death.

So you are really suggesting that there would have been fewer deaths this weekend in Iraq if Harry Reid hadn't said what he did? As in, quantifiably fewer - e.g. 99 instead of 100?

Which means, what, a would-be suicide bomber was sitting at home, not planning on killing anybody this weekend, but then he heard what ol' Harry Reid said, and he was inspired to go blow himself up. This actually happened, you're saying.

AND if it did indeed happen that way, then don't the right-wing blogs and the RNC share some of the responsibility, as they have been harping on Reid's comments incessantly? I mean, shouldn't you guys be quiet about what Reid said, if it leads directly to more deaths when Iraqi terrorists find out about it?

I read every post here and ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

I read every post here and come to the conclusion that the fight goes on. The left will defend the indefenseable. Soros is an unAmerican enemy of this nation. He made his fortune elsewhere and uses the money of take this country to the left. Why? I do not trust anyone whos politics seems to go aganist their own self interest. By the way, the person who would have found the cure for cancer was aborted in 1979. The person who would have found the cure for heart disease was aborted in 1981. The person your child would have found and married for life was aborted in 1988.

Hilarious. For every Georg... (Below threshold)
jt:

Hilarious. For every George Soros there are 100 wealthy billionaire republican donors supporting right wing organizations.

jt: "Hilarious. For every G... (Below threshold)
Drago:

jt: "Hilarious. For every George Soros there are 100 wealthy billionaire republican donors supporting right wing organizations."

Links please liar.

Just like Billo, you all ar... (Below threshold)
Von Cracker:

Just like Billo, you all are grasping-at-straws. Your heroes are crooks and liars, and you hate yourselves for getting fished in. Just admit it.

Rhetoric 101:

Can the truth become invalid due to, and only to, the source?

And of course: Just because you want it to be, doesn't make it so.

VC

VC: "Your heroes are crooks... (Below threshold)
Drago:

VC: "Your heroes are crooks and liars, and you hate yourselves for getting fished in. Just admit it."

False. Bill Clinton and Marc Rich are not my heroes. I don't even believe that "no controlling legal authority" should be a guiding principle.

Now, back to the topic...

Have any of you guys read w... (Below threshold)

Have any of you guys read what Soros himself has to say? He's an extremely cultured and well-educated individual with a well-worked out political philosophy based on the rigorous ethical principles of Kant and the anti-authoritarianism of Karl Popper. He's spent a great deal of time and money promoting democracy in the countries of the former Communist block. There's a lot to like in a person like him, especially in comparison to the typical right-wing millionare who spends his Daddy's money promoting screwy conspiracy theories.

You are out of date, jim. N... (Below threshold)
jim:

You are out of date, jim. No one is certain what was taken except Berger, but it is pretty certain that he took copies of national security documents that had original, contemporaneous, marginalia by members of Clinton's team, including Clinton.

Are you saying that Berger stole copies of documents that had original, irreplaceable Clinton marginalia?

Or are you saying that Berger is *suspected* by some people who are already predisposed to hate him, to *possibly* have destroyed copies with original marginalia?

"Pretty certain" means there's evidence that he did it. And the fact that he "could have" done something, doesn't mean that he did.

Historians will make a pretty good guess, and justify it. As a class, they are horrified. They will not treat Berger well. Why are you?

I am interested in people being accused accurately of things that there's evidence for.

I think there is too much rumor flying aroudn, and not enough facts. And I think that the more the human race can concentrate on independently verified facts, the more likely we are to survive.

Scrapiron said: "Poor old J... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Scrapiron said: "Poor old Jessica Lynch is out of the headlines so she's in congress degrading herself and her comrades for a 'picture' in the news."

That's a pretty desperate statement on your part. I can't believe you would smear a soldier because she was asked to appear and tell the truth. Do you think she should have gone along with the lie that was told? Would that make her more patriotic? Do you really think that by telling the truth she is degrading herself and her comrades? You logic is baffling.

By the way, the person ... (Below threshold)
jim:

By the way, the person who would have found the cure for cancer was aborted in 1979. The person who would have found the cure for heart disease was aborted in 1981. The person your child would have found and married for life was aborted in 1988.

The next Hitler was aborted in 1978. The next Timothy McVeigh was aborted in 1980. The next person who would have raped and killed your child was aborted in 1987.

+++++++++++++++jt: "... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

+++++++++++++++
jt: "Hilarious. For every George Soros there are 100 wealthy billionaire republican donors supporting right wing organizations."

Links please liar.

Posted by: Drago at April 24, 2007 02:13 PM
++++++++++++++
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Scaife
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Monaghan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Coors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_Industries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch

94 more to go . . . but do I get multiple credits for entire families of billionaires?

++++++++++++++++++++... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

++++++++++++++++++++
By the way, the person who would have found the cure for cancer was aborted in 1979. The person who would have found the cure for heart disease was aborted in 1981. The person your child would have found and married for life was aborted in 1988.

The next Hitler was aborted in 1978. The next Timothy McVeigh was aborted in 1980. The next person who would have raped and killed your child was aborted in 1987.

Posted by: jim at April 24, 2007 02:31 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+++++++++++++++++

Please don't forget all the sperms and eggs that never even had the chance to meet! What about them? That could be why Hoboken doesn't have a Boys Choir, like Vienna and Harlem do, or why the City of Atlantis was lost!!

mike: "94 more to go . . . ... (Below threshold)
Drago:

mike: "94 more to go . . . but do I get multiple credits for entire families of billionaires?"

Uh, no. And "Kock Industries" doesn't count, at least not any more than Dreamworks SKG, or other corporations or entities that fund lefties.

Like all lefties, I'll actually have to remind you what you actually said: mike: "For every George Soros there are 100 wealthy billionaire republican donors supporting right wing organizations."

Lets limit the discussion to what you claimed (I know that as a lefty, you are not used to being held to your own words, so I apologize for that).

Mike: "Please don't forget all the sperms and eggs that never even had the chance to meet! What about them?"

Hmmm, how basic a biology answer should I give you mike?

Let's try this: when was the last time you heard of a sperm becoming a fertilized egg and gestating in the scrotal sack.

If you can answer that question, then you'll begin to understand how stupid your question was.

Jim: "The next Hitler was a... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Jim: "The next Hitler was aborted in 1978. The next Timothy McVeigh was aborted in 1980. The next person who would have raped and killed your child was aborted in 1987."

Wow. Typical lefty. The babies are guilty, and the criminals are innocent!

Thanks Jim. You are a perfect caricature.

Drago, I can't believe you ... (Below threshold)
Psmarc93:

Drago, I can't believe you protested the fact that conservatives are funded by billionaires! That's what Repubs and conservatives are usually so proud of -- equating wealth with intelligence and success! Whatever. So when Bush referred to the richest people in America as "my base," I guess you don't think he was talking about you.

But to the point of this post: Media Matters is slanted, but open about it's slant as you are open about yours. They do ignore gaffs and errors on the left, but then that's not their mission and they are not seeking "balance" except by asserting that the MSM is overwhelming conservative and their dedication to exposinig the Media's conservative bias hopefully would balance that out. However, unlike say Savage, their reports are not accusations or smears but simply reports complete with transcripts and links to full transcripts for proof. O'Reilly blows a gasket because he's quoted IN CONTEXT and won't own up to his own (at best) thoughtless comments. I'll agree that Media Matters may sometimes seem overly sensitive, picky and even riduculous for their finger pointing, but their facts and evidence are impeccable. They do not lie; they do not smear. Anyone who doubts it should simply read the site -- every article begins with an analysis and then offers the reader the transcript for proof and then offers links to the full transcripts -- taken from Bill-O's own FOX -- and let's the reader decide if the the original analysis was correct. Then follows reader comments -- who either add more evidence or refute the posting. This is not a smear site. Check it out. If there are "lies" point one out.

<a href="http://en.wikipedi... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_Family_Foundations
i count 3 koch family members there. . .

and i didn't make the claim about 100:1 (it was jt), i was just helping to make the list.

My point about the sperm and eggs was that the argument above about unborn children and their potential to do harm or good in the world was getting a little silly, on both sides. If you think abortion is murder, then it doesn't matter whether the baby would have grown up to be a murderer itself, does it? and if you don't think abortion is murder, then it doesn't matter that the baby would have grown up to be a Nobel prize winner.

PS I'm still waiting for so... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

PS I'm still waiting for someone to point out an example of the MSM getting its cues from Media Matters.

psmarc93, you would make a ... (Below threshold)
Drago:

psmarc93, you would make a wonderful "researcher" at media matters.

psmarc95: "Drago, I can't believe you protested the fact that conservatives are funded by billionaires!"

I didn't. I protested this statement from Mike: "
For every George Soros there are 100 wealthy billionaire republican donors supporting right wing organization."

See the difference? No, I guess you don't, hence your ridiculous post.

psmarc95: "That's what Repubs and conservatives are usually so proud of -- equating wealth with intelligence and success!"

Links please liar.

Posted by: MikeBC at April ... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Posted by: MikeBC at April 24, 2007 03:03 PM

Mike, you are credited with your attempt to help jt look up the 100-1 rich republican billionaire donors to poor, almost non-existent democrat rich donors.

As to the abortion question, this isn't the thread to discuss it, but you laid out enough to where we could certainly have a civil discussion.

Fair enough?

Yes, Drago, that's exactly ... (Below threshold)
jim:

Yes, Drago, that's exactly what I'm saying. Babies are guilty while they're still fetuses, so that makes abortion a wonderful thing. That's just they've been telling all us liberals at the top-secret Streisand-Fonda re-education camps.

Not.

My point is that as an argument against abortion, it doesn't hold water, because the converse could just as easily be true.

By keeping teenagers from h... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

By keeping teenagers from having sex aren't we potentially preventing the birth of a child? If so, you "abstinence only" people should be ashamed. You might be preventing the next Toby Keith from being born, or that other guy who wrote a 9/11 country song called "Have you Forgotten" that came out during the war protests. I think that one may have been directed at the Bush people though, you know, "have you forgotten that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?"

MY friends on the right tell me that God knows everything and knows what will happen in the future, so it seems to me that since God is supposed to know everything and have everything planned out, why would he let people conceive in the first place if he knows they are going to get an abortion? Does that make you mad at God? Do you intend to bomb Heaven?

JIm: "My point is that as a... (Below threshold)
Drago:

JIm: "My point is that as an argument against abortion, it doesn't hold water, because the converse could just as easily be true."

Fair enough. let's bail on this and get back to the thread topic.

Posted by: Ozett at April 2... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Posted by: Ozett at April 24, 2007 03:13 PM

total yawn.

"total yawn" must be French... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

"total yawn" must be French for "I surrender to your superior logic."

ORally continues to provide... (Below threshold)
Settembrini:

ORally continues to provide amusement for the rational and edification or the deranged. He hates the fact that Media Matters documents what he says because only upon reading it later does he realize how ridiculous he sounds. ORally's never shown Media Matters to have misquoted him. He's never shown them to have taken him out of context (in fact, as noted above, every Media Matters article places the entire quote in context, with links to full transcripts.) Nope, ORally hates Media Matters because, like Andrea Mackris, it exposes him for who he really is.

And by the way, Media Matters denies the accuracy of his ORally's funny little chart. They claim Soros has never funded them directly or indirectly. Gee, you think ORally will provide proof to the contrary? More likely he'll claim over and over again how he "documented" the connection, referring to his little chart as all the documentation he needs.

O'Leilly is so obsessed by ... (Below threshold)
jFO:

O'Leilly is so obsessed by the female reproductive system (per his chart) that he wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in his loofah.

I really question his sanity sometimes. He is obviously one of the most narcissistic human beings alive

A lot of rightwingers are h... (Below threshold)

A lot of rightwingers are home- or self-educated people and make the kind of errors that go along with that condition. They tend to think that a position is well-documented when it features a lot of footnotes as if the important thing is the number of references, not the credibility of the sources referenced. Which is why Conservative books always have lots of notes, most of which provide no support to their arguments. It's like when Kingfish used to gull Andy Brown by speaking learnedly about logus on the bogus.

Don't you guys ever get tired of practicing on the simplicity of your target demographic?

Jim Harrison: "A lot of rig... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Jim Harrison: "A lot of rightwingers are home- or self-educated people and make the kind of errors that go along with that condition."

Links liar.

ozett: "total yawn" must be... (Below threshold)
Drago:

ozett: "total yawn" must be French for "I surrender to your superior logic.""

No, it means that those very arguments have been hashed, rehashed, and rehashed again on previous threads and this thread has a different focus.

I guess that thought was a little tougher for you to conceptualize than the self serving "I surrender to your superior logic."

BTW, why would you use the word "surrender" with me? Do I sound French?

Jim Harrison: "Which is why... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Jim Harrison: "Which is why Conservative books always have lots of notes, most of which provide no support to their arguments."

Examples liar.

Sounds like Media Matters's... (Below threshold)
trrll:

Sounds like Media Matters's fact checking of O'Reilly's continual misstatements is making him a bit desperate. Regardless of who is funding them, they always do an excellent job of sourcing their criticisms, so I'm sure that they are attracting donations from many sources. What is most devastating to O'Reilly is their practice of juxtaposing his claims (some of them quite ludicrous) next to the actual facts.

I've been reading right-win... (Below threshold)

I've been reading right-wing tracts since I was a kid--from a Choice Not an Echo, None Dare Call It Treason to the latest semi-literate trash from O'Reilly or Ann Coulter. the sourcing is truly deplorable; and, yes, I've checked. Now it is perfectly true that polemics of all kinds tend to play fast and loose with the mere truth, but right-wing propaganda is pretty much stuck with misrepresentation because of the well-known bias of the facts. Liberal and centrists writers probably shouldn't get much credit for their honesty. You guys might also be honest if it paid.

Jim, you made some very spe... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Jim, you made some very specific and nonsensical assertions. It's perfectly understandable that you cannot vaqlidate your moonbat claims.

I've been listening to leftwing crackpots like you my whole life and it's always the same old story: BS assertion with nothing to back it up.

Congratulations, you are a perfect caricature.

It may just be that calling... (Below threshold)

It may just be that calling somebody a Moonbat isn't as much of a killer argument as you seem to think.

As for who is a crackpot, I leave it to the American public to decide whether it is a moderate like me or a conspiracy theorist like you. My guess is you guys are going back to the place you inhabited back in the 50s.

JH: "It may just be that ca... (Below threshold)
Drago:

JH: "It may just be that calling somebody a Moonbat isn't as much of a killer argument as you seem to think."

It's based on the fact that you made extraordinary claims that you could obviously not back up. That is behavior typical of a moonbat. I don't suspect you will "get" the irony of your latest complaint.

JH: "As for who is a crackpot, I leave it to the American public to decide whether it is a moderate like me or a conspiracy theorist like you."

Wow. Delusions of grandeur. "the American public" will be rendering no such judgement on this particular exchange.

Further, I made no assertion regarding "conspiracies". Why do assert that I do? Oh, that's right, because your Modus Operandi is to make one false claim after another without any substance. Since we've already covered this ground, I'll say it again: that's moonbat behavior.

JH: "My guess is you guys are going back to the place you inhabited back in the 50s."

I'm sure your "guesses" are about as reliable as your other spurious claims.

Don't worry. We would expect nothing less from you.

+++++++++++++++++++J... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

+++++++++++++++++++
Jim Harrison: "Which is why Conservative books always have lots of notes, most of which provide no support to their arguments."

Examples liar.

Posted by: Drago at April 24, 2007 05:50 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

some examples:

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh072202.shtml
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh042905.shtml
http://www.slate.com/id/2116087
http://mediamatters.org/columns/200704180002

I'm *still* waiting for som... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

I'm *still* waiting for someone to point out an example of the MSM getting its cues from Media Matters.

to quote Drago, "Links liar"

Ozett, no it means that you... (Below threshold)

Ozett, no it means that you're talking about Calvinists and Predestination-ists, both religious people. As far as I can tell most Christians believe in free will, so your argument doesn't hold water.

Henry, I grew up in a world... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Henry, I grew up in a world of evangelical Pentecostal and Assembly of God churches, and they preach that God knows everything, and that everything is pre-ordained. Perhaps they've changed since then, but that's what they were teaching in the 70s. We better not talk about this anymore though, Drago will get pissed at us.

If no one intends to post a... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

If no one intends to post any links supporting the assertion made in the original post that the MSM takes material from Media Matters, let me know so I can stop pinging this thread.

Please keep pinging, commen... (Below threshold)
kim:

Please keep pinging, commenting, and reminding us of Media Matters persiflage.
===================

Remember, it's Stalinist an... (Below threshold)
kim:

Remember, it's Stalinist and Stalinist disinformation works, temporarily. What brought that evil empire down? Copying machines, I kid you not. Good information drives out bad. Where is Stalin's disinformation, now? Where will you jokers be in thirty years? Your grandchildren will wonder how you could be such fools.
========================

Hopefully recovered emails ... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Hopefully recovered emails will eventually bring another evil empire down.

Kim, your grandchildren will be asking "how could you have let this happen?" and much like the Germans who were asked the same thing you will reply "but what could we do?" never mentioning that you were one of the Stella Goldschlags of your generation.

Oh, my Godwin, Ozett, and I... (Below threshold)
kim:

Oh, my Godwin, Ozett, and I just answered you civilly on the other thread. Why do you idiots always project?
===================================

Sorry Kim, I had posted thi... (Below threshold)
Ozett:

Sorry Kim, I had posted this one before I went to the other thread. The Stalin comment got to me. I enjoy civil discussions. I like to hear the other side to see if maybe I'm looking at things wrong. I'll try to be nicer.

Whoa. Not a bot. Thanks, ... (Below threshold)
kim:

Whoa. Not a bot. Thanks, and I forgive you. I lose my temper, too, and that was the sort of thing to lose it over.

Bye, I'm being deleted by a moderator. There is no defense.
=========================

Encouraged by kim, i eagerl... (Below threshold)
MikeBC:

Encouraged by kim, i eagerly anticipate the links or other evidence of MSM adoption of Media Matters's material.

Calling it "Stalinist" doesn't really advance the argument--I could easily respond, it's the truth, and the truth "works" too. Either way, the statement assumes the underlying facts that I am trying to establish.

I do thank you for the vocab--I had to look up "persiflage."




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