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Gun Control = Using Both Hands

Utah allows guns on college campuses

Brent Tenney says he feels pretty safe when he goes to class at the University of Utah, but he takes no chances. He brings a loaded 9 mm semiautomatic with him every day.

Good idea.

You never can tell when you might need to stop some deranged kill-bot who's gone postal.


Comments (47)

Agreed. I think we should h... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Agreed. I think we should hand out guns (at the door) to teenagers in college. Everyone knows how responsible college students are and they certainly can be trusted to wield dangerous weapons.

jp2, letting those willing ... (Below threshold)
John Irving:

jp2, letting those willing and able to responsibly carry weapons makes far more sense than anything you've ever said, and is a far cry from your absurdist statement.

I think college students with CCW permits are far less likely to abuse the 2nd amendment than you routinely do the 1st by "speaking up" and removing all doubt of your ignorance.

jp2,Many of us wer... (Below threshold)
mantis:

jp2,

Many of us were "trusted to wield dangerous weapons" long before college.

Now this is of course a com... (Below threshold)
Fred Z:

Now this is of course a complete lie.

The linked story claims that this gun carrying has been going on since 2004. Impossible. Everyone knows that if this were the case, the gut nuts would have killed hundreds, perhaps thousands of innocents. No doubt minorities would have been hardest hit. Think of the children!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't it weird (and patheti... (Below threshold)

Isn't it weird (and pathetic) how lots of people who walk in and out of places with armed security guards every day and think nothing of it nonetheless get all control-freaky with anxiety attacks just THINKING of NON-uniformed people (most with even MORE training than your average rent-a-cop) getting CCW licenses?

It is anathema to the left ... (Below threshold)

It is anathema to the left to consider that anyone might be able to defend themselves. Their entire ideology is based on the insufficiency of the individual to survive on his own and the necessity of Society to provide for him.

The left far prefers crying for the victims to empowering them beforehand. After all, victims who refuse to be victimized cease to be victims, and thereby lose any favored Social Status under the leftist Order.

Years ago, in Southern Cali... (Below threshold)
Ran:

Years ago, in Southern California, a NEW TREND was happening. Seems felons discovered they could rob people at gun point why parked in fast food lines. Seems two fellas picked a wrong car..husband and wife off duty cops. Needless to say.. the term "Double-Double Burger" took on a new meaning. 30 years of working the streets showed me who had guns I should be afraid of, and it WASN'T the local population. Felons COUNT ON YOU not having a weapon, or even a big dog, for that matter.

Alcohol, drugs, stress of f... (Below threshold)
jim:

Alcohol, drugs, stress of finals, stress of being away from home for the first time, money worries, racial tensions, students packed next to each other in flimsy dorm rooms - I know, let's add guns to the mix!

Or we could, you know, find out how Cho was still able to get a gun even tho he was a documented loony, and what the hell the school was thinking when they knew an escaped killer was somewhere loose on the campus, and did bother to tell anyone for 2 hours.

Nah, let's give 'em all guns.

Well, if you nutbags are ca... (Below threshold)
Semanticleo:

Well, if you nutbags are carrying firearms, you can bet I'll be packin' a six-shooter for protection.

It isn't so much that you w... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

It isn't so much that you will likely need or even can kill some deranged kill-bot gone postal.

Its the fact the deranged kill-bot knows if does go postal there, he is likely have his 15-20 minutes of being an unchallengeable executioner ruined before the cops show up. Including the possibility of his own death.

In "To Kill a Mockingbird,"... (Below threshold)
goddessoftheclassroom:

In "To Kill a Mockingbird," LIttle Chuck Little, a first grader, stands up to Burris Ewell, a filthy, obnoxious hulk of a kid. Burris looks as if he's going to attack, then Chuck's hand "swifly went to his pocket and he said, 'I'd just as soon kill you as look at you'." Burris backs off in a hurry.

The same concept of disarming everyone except those who don't follow the rules anyway happens with bullying in school. If a picked-on kids fights back, he gets suspended for fighting. If he goes to the teachers/admin, he gets hassled outside of school. Even though I'm a teacher (and believe me, I'm a "rules person"), I told my sons that they were never to throw the first punch--but they could throw the LAST one, and I'd stand by them when they had to take the consequences.

Being a student is not syno... (Below threshold)
-S-:

Being a student is not synonymous with being "a teenager."

If any adult is capable of owning and using a handgun (or any gun) responsibly and competently, and they meet and fulfill licensing requirements to do so, there's no reason nor no excuse that they be prevented from doing so.

I am not sure that "teenagers" are able to be licensed to carry handguns in many if not most states (not sure at all what the laws are in these regards as to age), but, if someone meets the legal requirements to own and carry a handgun, they should be able to do so.

I can understand certain FACILITY limitations to having guns on area but no facility supercedes state laws in these regards, nor federal ones. At least, I don't think any facility has any right to do so (to require behaviors/actions that run contrary to what state and federal laws are that govern individuals and licensing).

"Schools" take huge liberties in assuming that just because someone's a "student," that they're then going to be socially corruptible and incorrigible and irresponsible if not emotionally unstable. Nothing could be farther from the truth and in this regard -- this outrageous overassuming negative perception by many schools about who students are or will be if not "must be" in their negative stereotyping of students -- it places the schools in questionable perspective that they'd be making such radically negative assumptions about any/all who enroll in their institutions (that students can't be trusted, that their individual rights must be eradicated or suppressed, etc.).

Schools aren't legislative bodies. Most of them overlook this and take terrible presumptions upon people who enroll in their facilities, in my experience, from a socio-legal perspective. I note that most - if not all -- schools also assume a non-liability position as to students' wellbeing and safety (if you're a student and you suffer harms at a school, the school can't be held responsible is the stance most schools take), so their presumptions upon students' safety and the risks present today is unreasonable.

I agree that if anyone meets state requirements to own, use and carry a handgun, they're legitimately able to do so. That means on a school or not in a school.

But I'd hope that there wer... (Below threshold)
-S-:

But I'd hope that there were age limitations for these legal requirements (to own and carry a handgun) and I believe that there are in nearly all states.

I learned to shoot (and own... (Below threshold)
-S-:

I learned to shoot (and own responsibly) a shotgun when I was twelve. Most if not all my friends at that age did, too.

Well, if a university truly... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Well, if a university truly believes it is "training" students for the real world then possession of firearms under existing state and federal laws should be a reasonable consideration. Can university policy over-rule a student's permission to legally carry a concealed weapon on campus?

So, "Utah allows guns on co... (Below threshold)
Herman:

So, "Utah allows guns on college campuses," huh?

Well, why stop there? After all, high school kids can get murdered, so it makes sense to allow them to "defend" themselves by carrying guns to school each day, right, conservatives? And, heck, even elementary school children can get shot at, so let all of them bring guns to school too. The conservatives would argue that these children need to start at a young age to defend themselves, not to rely on others to defend them. In addition, a mere eight-year old has "2nd Amendment rights" too, right, conservatives? Or does that 2nd Amendment pertain only to "well-regulated" militias?

But don't even stop there! Heck, given such high rates of gun ownership in this country and that people can get murdered by guns not just in schools, but also in offices, malls, factories, etc., no one should leave home without packing heat, right, conservatives???? The conservative solution to the problems caused by guns: more guns!

Utterly incredible.

But though it may be very difficult for you to understand, conservatives, there is a different approach to the problems caused by guns:

"South Korea is a country where citizens are banned from privately owning guns and where no school shootings are known to have occurred."

(from:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/04/17/skorea.vtech.ap/index.html
)

This solution seems to be working much better than your "All-God's-Children-Got-Guns" solution, the murder rate in South Korea being a little more the one-third of what it is here in the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

Ah, South Korea. Site of t... (Below threshold)
a4g:

Ah, South Korea. Site of the worst spree killing in modern history. Eight hours, 57 dead plus the piece of garbage who did it. Another 35 wounded.

By a police officer, no less.

Herman:Virginia Te... (Below threshold)

Herman:

Virginia Tech had a ban on guns on campus.

Sure stopped the shooter, didn't it? (I won't give him any extra fame by using his name.)

There's also a ban on attempting to remove the serial numbers from firearms. That sure stopped the shooter from scratching off the serial numbers on his guns.

Come to think of it, there are laws against shooting people, too. Those laws sure stopped this maniac, didn't they?

Bottom line, he broke over 3 dozen laws. But lefties still seem to think that 3 dozen plus one would stop people.

Take off the rose-colored glasses and take a good, hard look at the real world someday, Herman. Just have your nitro pills handy, it may cause cardiac problems for someone who's been shielded from reality for as long as you apparently have.

Herman, really, what's the ... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Herman, really, what's the point of your argument? There were legal adults at VaTech as well as there are legal adults in elementary schools that can carry a gun - legally. Do you have a problem with someone legally being able to protect THEMSELVES or those before legal age?! Or is your perfect world revolve around law enforcement showing up AFTER there is a body? What is it with your type who always automatically feels some nebulous "other" is better at caring for an individual than the individual him/herself. Do you go through life worrying you might find you and you alone responsible for your actions?

"Utterly incredible".. EXAC... (Below threshold)
Ran:

"Utterly incredible".. EXACTLY!..Herman.. your an idiot. For most of my adult life, I dealt with "Hermans" complaining that "He had a gun" why don't you guys get those guns off the streets!" after they had been robbed. Drop into south central LA sometime, without a weapon! and tell me you feel safe! Geeze.. Liberals scare me!

Herman, bad news, Pandora's... (Below threshold)
Fred Z:

Herman, bad news, Pandora's box is open.

Any idiot with a hand forge and a few files can make a gun. Ever see your beloved lefty PBS glow over the Afghan and Pakistani village gunsmiths making AK-47s? PBS loves those guns because they will be used to kill American troops.

How come PBS (and you) don't like guns here? Will you like them if I set up a hand forge (a pile of charcoal and a blow dryer)and start knocking off AK-47s? How about if I hire an Afghan to do it? And this is just plain silly talk because we live in a technical world and can buy machine tools. A few thousand bucks and I can set up a gun assembly line. What next? Ban steel? Ban machine tools? Suppress knowledge?

So let's debate reality. Guns are everywhere and always will be. Legal bans ensure that only nuts and criminals will have guns. Now what?

I know says the left, let's pretend otherwise.

I've posted something about... (Below threshold)
Paul Hamilton:

I've posted something about this over on Wizbang Blue. I think most of the folks here might be surprised by it, but rather than spoil the fun, I'll just invite you over to read and comment on the blog post entitled "A Well-Regulated Constabulary Militia."

Virginia Tech had a ban ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Virginia Tech had a ban on guns on campus.
...
There's also a ban on attempting to remove the serial numbers from firearms.
...
Come to think of it, there are laws against shooting people, too.
...
Bottom line, he broke over 3 dozen laws.

There are laws against rape, but people get raped. There are laws against murder, but people get murdered. There are laws against DUI, but people drive drunk.

Hey, none of these laws work! Let's repeal them all! Then give everyone condoms, guns, and bottles of Thunderbird!

I got a better idea, Brian.... (Below threshold)

I got a better idea, Brian.

Let's just ban crime.

We'll have thousands of career criminals going, "Gee, I was gonna rob that guy, but I guess it's illegal now. Guess I'll turn to a life of labor."

[removing tongue from cheek]

I would, however, like to honestly thank you, Brian. You have provided the catalyst for the crystallization of my thoughts on lefties and laws.

Lefties think laws prevent crime. They do not. Laws spell out the punishment for certain crimes. The punishments are what deter criminals, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the punishment.

Therefore, there is no law in the universe that will stop someone like the VTech shooter, who clearly intended to take his own life at the end. And anyone that believes otherwise is living in a fantasy world.

By the way, Brian, thanks a... (Below threshold)

By the way, Brian, thanks again for helping. If you visit my humble little blog, you'll see a more thorough exploration of the thoughts you helped crystallize for me.

Why does the left always ar... (Below threshold)
horse:

Why does the left always argue this with silly strawmen that are too easy to knock down? Can't you lefties do better than that?

I would, however, like t... (Below threshold)
Brian:

I would, however, like to honestly thank you, Brian. You have provided the catalyst for the crystallization of my thoughts on lefties and laws.

Don't thank me. I just took your own statements to their absurd conclusion.

Lefties think laws prevent crime. They do not.

Nice little strawman you got going there.

Laws spell out the punishment for certain crimes. The punishments are what deter criminals, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the punishment.

Obviously. Though then I fail to see how removing the punishment from certain laws (e.g., CCW) will help to curb violations of those laws. Unless you're citing the position that if everyone had guns then fewer crazies would take the risk. Which may be an intresting argument, but has nothing to do with the philosophy of laws, crime, and punishment.

If you visit my humble little blog, you'll see a more thorough exploration of the thoughts you helped crystallize for me.

No thanks. I get more than my daily dose of illogic from the conservatives who post on this site.

Brain........ Guess it depe... (Below threshold)
Ran:

Brain........ Guess it depends on what your "philosophy" of "Dead by crazy" is.

Herman - lol, C'mo... (Below threshold)
Knightbrigade:

Herman -

lol, C'mon..you can do better than THAT!! Conservative, conservative, conservative, blah, blah, blah, bad, bad, bad.

South Korea and other country than America good, good, good.

Easy solution, buy a ticket and take the rest of your liberal/progressive cult and MOVE to South Korea were it is SO much safer!!!

Nice little strawman yourse... (Below threshold)

Nice little strawman yourself, Brian... where did I ever say that we should remove the punishment from illegal possession of firearms?

However, that's a whole other ball of wax from the legal possession of firearms, which dimwits like you seem to want to make impossible.

Let's not conflate the two items, please, even though I know it says that you should on page 306 of the Leftists' Playbook.

Gun Control Works, i... (Below threshold)
XYZ:


Gun Control Works, if your a commie

1911

Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1929

The Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

1935

China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1938

Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

1956

Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people , unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

1964

Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

1970

Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In the 20th Century, because of gun control, 56 million Defenseless People were rounded up and exterminated.

Now a more current history page. It has now been several years since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms for destruction by their
government. This program cost Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year's results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides with firearms are up 3.2 percent.

Australia-wide, assaults with firearms are up 8.6 percent.

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note: while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upwards, since criminals now are guaranteed that
their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
assaults of the ELDERLY.

After a monumental effort and cost was expended in ridding the Australian Society of personal fire arms, Australian politicians are at a loss to explain why public safety has decreased. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear our president, governors or other politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans.....before it's too late!

In light of this terrible tragedy, we need to focus on love and healing, not politicizing the senseless deaths of these people. The next time someone talks in support of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are citizens. Without them, we are just subjects.

If you value your freedom. Please spread this Gun Control Information message to all of your friends.

Knightbrigade, thanks for j... (Below threshold)

Knightbrigade, thanks for jogging my memory. It took a little digging, but check out the following story from the Bible of Leftism, the NY Times:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E4DF1638F93AA15757C0A964948260

Herman, you should read it too. See how safe South Korea is with guns only in the hands of the police?

I live in Utah, so let me t... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

I live in Utah, so let me throw in an informed 2 cents here. Our concealed carry program is a joke. It takes a 4-hour class on a Saturday, a moronic written exam and I think like 50 bucks. While you're sitting in the "Make sure you don't kill innocent people class" they check your background for felonies. It's a joke. This Cho kid, if in Utah, could have gotten one. Then, he could have proudly walked into the building where he killed so many people, smiled and waved at the security guard with his gun showing, as I have seen on the University of Utah campus, before going on his rampage. My point is this joke of a permit means a lot of people with one oar in the water are walking around my state colleges, and in the general public legally strapped.

Hey XYZ, that post word for... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Hey XYZ, that post word for word showed in my email inbox a couple months ago. Try coming up with and original thought.

Nice little strawman you... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Nice little strawman yourself, Brian... where did I ever say that we should remove the punishment from illegal possession of firearms?

Well, it is the point of this thread.

many in Utah are proud to have the nation's only state law that expressly allows the carrying of concealed weapons at public colleges.

However, that's a whole other ball of wax from the legal possession of firearms, which dimwits like you seem to want to make impossible.

Umm, to quote... well... you... Nice little strawman yourself... where did I ever say that we should make impossible the legal possession of firearms?

Let's not conflate the two items, please, even though I know it says that you should on page 306 of the Leftists' Playbook.

Hey, what a coincidence! That's the same page of the Rightie's Playbook where it says that when your arguments are shredded by logic and reason, you should fall back to name-calling!

Okay, Brian, show me this v... (Below threshold)

Okay, Brian, show me this vaunted logic and reason. Explain, in detail, your views and the logic behind them.

some halfwit blurted:... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

some halfwit blurted:
Agreed. I think we should hand out guns (at the door) to teenagers in college

Teenagers kill more people with cars every year than they do with guns. Why aren't you demanding that cars be banned ?

Gun safety classes were off... (Below threshold)

Gun safety classes were offered by the VA Legion hall place people (for some reason I can *not* think of the name... they sponsored summer baseball too) the summer after sixth grade to all interested school children.

I was the only girl who took the class which included shooting .22 rifles for a sort of qualification at the end. (This was my first experience with wounded male pride. The second was when I was better at small engine repair in high school.)

After that, most of us (and even those who didn't take the safety class) at that age, went duck hunting by ourselves and many (including me) owned our own shot-guns. I didn't use mine though, it was a cheap piece of crap. I used my Dad's.

It was less common for people to have pistols. The only thing a shot gun doesn't do better than a pistol is concealed carry.

It's just too weird to me to hear people who really and truly think that young people are some sort of elemental psychotics who can't handle a weapon without shooting people with it. Yeah, I was 12, just like -S-.

Okay, Brian, show me thi... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Okay, Brian, show me this vaunted logic and reason. Explain, in detail, your views and the logic behind them.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were having difficulties reading. Start here and work your way down. Stop when you get to where you start misrepresenting what others have said, and you start making personal attacks instead of reasoned arguments.

Ahh, I see... Brian isn't w... (Below threshold)

Ahh, I see... Brian isn't willing to give details on his logic, he just wants to insult my reading skills (which are excellent, thankyouverymuch.

Why am I not surprised?

No, I'm just not going to w... (Below threshold)
Brian:

No, I'm just not going to waste my time on someone who initially responds to the positions and views in this thread, then devolves to insults when he runs out of arguments, and then snidely demands that the positions and views already stated in the thread be repeated for his benefit.

Sounds more like you have n... (Below threshold)

Sounds more like you have no idea how logic could be used to make a case for more gun control.

Perhaps because it can't!

The American Legion. ... (Below threshold)

The American Legion.

I hate when that happens. I know the word and I know I know the word and it's just *gone*. And the next day, suddenly, it's back again. One of those "it's on the tip of my tongue" things.

Very annoying.

Ain't it the truth, Synova?... (Below threshold)

Ain't it the truth, Synova? (having a word on the tip of the tongue being annoying.)

By the way, my first firearm was a .22 rimfire rifle given to me on my 13th birthday... but I was not allowed to fire it until I'd been taught gun safety to the satisfaction of my uncle (my father being visually impaired). And let me tell you, my uncle was and is a harsh taskmaster when it comes to firearm safety.

To this day (and I am past my 40th birthday), even when holding a bar-code scanner with a pistol grip, I instinctively hold it in a "safe" position (i.e. pointed up or down) when not actually scanning something. My co-workers sometimes give me funny looks, but when I explain, they agree that a habit like that is one you don't want to break.

Yeah Utah! As a proud resi... (Below threshold)

Yeah Utah! As a proud resident of the Great State of Utah, if all the anti-gun wussies don't like the fact that in Utah, we believe in self-defense, they are free to move to another state like Virginia where crazed madmen are free to shoot college students at will. Oops! I forgot. My bad. At Virginia Tech, there is no need for students to carry self-defense weapons 'cuz we all know that all those highly-trained campus police officers will protect the student body. I'm waiting for the real story of the VT shooting to emerge showing how a crazed gunman was killed by the highly-trained VT campus police before he was able to kill any of the students on campus.

Just like bank robbers rob banks "cuz that's where the money is", people intent on killing lots 'o unarmed civilians do so at colleges because that's where no guns are found and campus cops are inept.


123456... (Below threshold)

123456

i dont agree its so dumb!!!... (Below threshold)

i dont agree its so dumb!!! their young they an do whatever they want!!!!!




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