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The Questions Those in the Media Aren't Asking Now

John Hawkins has my favorite post of the day, possibly of the year. At Right Wing News he discusses the ways Democrats dishonestly debate the Iraq War, including the way they always ignore discussion of the consequences of the actions (or inactions) they propose. Then he hits the nail on the head by comparing what liberals say the media did in the lead up to the war, to what they are now doing in the lead up to proposed withdrawal:

If we leave Iraq before the Iraqis are capable of handling their own internal security, the resulting firestorm will likely make what's going on there today look like a Sunday picnic, which is why any discussion of setting an arbitrary timeline or cutting and running should also feature in depth discussion of the consequences of that action.

You'd think that would be a no brainer, wouldn't you? After all, wasn't there just a phony baloney Bill Moyer special claiming that the press didn't ask enough tough questions getting into the war when it was popular (which wasn't true at all)? So now, getting out of the war is popular and guess what; the press is studiously avoiding asking any tough questions about it -- and where are the "watchdogs" in the press? Which members of the mainstream media are regularly asking Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, John Edwards, and Hillary Clinton what they think the ramifications of leaving Iraq will be? They're advocating a course of action similar to cutting the brake lines on car and pushing it down a steep, pedestrian filled hill and all they're saying about it is something similar to, "Even though Bush is totally opposed to this, whatever happens will be his fault," or "The polls say that the American people are tired of driving this car!"

Read the entire post. The first part describes what has had me virtually screaming at the top of my lungs for the past three years. The second part points out what we should all be screaming about now.


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Comments (28)

I just read that before co... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

I just read that before coming here.

Interesting.

If we cut n run, be it to Okinawa, or back home, some of those consequences could be, but are not limited to...

* The end of democracy in Iraq.
* Millions of Iraqis killed in a real "civil war."
* The invasion of Iraq by Iran and/or Turkey.
* Iraq becoming a satellite state of Iran.
* A regional Shia on Sunni civil war that could begin as all sides pour in money and weapons.
* A terrorist "state within a state" controlled by Al-Qaeda.
* Al-Qaeda switching its focus from Iraq to the United States which could lead to more attacks here.
* A massive surge in recruiting by terrorist groups bolstered by Al-Qaeda's "victory" over the US.
* A massive spike in worldwide oil prices if all the oil from Iraq is cut off in the fighting.

We don't see Democrats in Congress or liberal bloggers offering up solutions to what happens then.

You can scream, you can poi... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

You can scream, you can point out the facts and the truth. No one will hear until the antique MSM is put out of business and someone starts reporting the news honestly instead of trying to destroy America to satisfy their own ego's. The current crop of 'propaganda' outlets are and have sided with the enemy since the Korean war.

Join with a good part of the Patriotic Americans and quit watching the propaganda outlets or buying the super market tabloids they pass off as news papers. I only watch the local news (15 minutes max daily) on the local MSM station and have quit buying any news papers and most of the products hyped by the MSM. It won't take many more people to quit them and they're gone. Look at what a small organization (AFA) has done to Ford. Going under fast, I own two Fords but will never buy another and I get them at employee prices. Another 2% loss of readers/viewers this month and more to follow puts the MSM on par with Ford on the rapid road to nowhere.

It has been estimated there... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

It has been estimated there are 215 billion barrels of oil under Iraq. The idiots on the left want to give our enemies a trillion dollars to fight us. You can bet there will be consequences. I wonder how long these idiots think they can get away with blaming Bush for all the ills of the world? As stupid as they think we are, I believe they will find out next election.

a solution? worst case a ev... (Below threshold)
nogo postal:

a solution? worst case a even more intense civil war takes place..
but without the deaths and injuries of American troops...
Perhaps the worthless purple thunb Iraqi govt that stands for nothing and has has passed nothing may fall...(and the loss is?)
We do know that Iraq will not launch a WMD attack on anybody.,..
Remember..it is up to our President and his group of trained professionals to find a solution...
No rational person can believe that the Iraqi Govt/Army/Police will stand up in the next year anymore than they already have...
The withdrawal will take place in 2009...when the majority of voters elect a Democratic President..and an even stronger majority in the Senate and House...because WE..now the majority and gaining..will say enough!
Does anyone here really believe any candidate who is voting against reasonable time lines is going to make their position a focal point in 2008?

Lorie, I think it is a grea... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Lorie, I think it is a great idea to have an honest discussion on what we think may happen if we leave Iraq. Here is what I think will happen to al Qaeda in Iraq.

Al Qaeda in Iraq is made of foreign fighters. They are not aligned with the Ba'athist. They are responsible for some truly terrible attacks mostly on Shiite but also on Sunni.

The day we leave the Shiite controlled security forces and the Shiite militias will descend on al Qaeda members like locus. They will be rounded up, tortured, burned alive and then shot in the head.

The Sunnis will not object nor provide refuge to al Qaeda.

If you want to get rid of al Qaeda in Iraq then redeploy the troops.

yeah barney frank, redeploy... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

yeah barney frank, redeploy em to Okinawa for quick strike capability

Based on that flamers logic, FedEx should have its main hub in Juneau, instea dof in the middle of the country.

So, Barn, what's to keep th... (Below threshold)

So, Barn, what's to keep the Shiite security forces and militias from doing that *now*?

Course, the Shi'a militias, such as Sadr and his buddies, will love the security vacuum and opportunity to enforce strict religious punishments in their private "courts" on Shi'a and Sunnis.

I swear that liberals just like blood. Lots of it.

Synova, you already know th... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Synova, you already know the answer. It is us and the surge. The militias have gone underground and there is too much oversight/emdedded US forces to allow the security forces free reign.

Once we leave the gloves come off.

We are already hearing of some this come true in Anbar province (at least on the Sunni side).

If you want to get... (Below threshold)
wave man:
If you want to get rid of al Qaeda in Iraq then redeploy the troops.


Posted by: BarneyG2000 at April 30, 2007 07:17 PM


This whole comment is the most delusional, idiotic tripe that I've read in the comments section here in the last 2 years. And that's saying something, considering some of the stuff left here lately. You're not being serious, are you? Come on, tell me it's satire.

Then again, I've reading some of your recent comments. Sadly, I think not.

Lorie, I think that your ca... (Below threshold)
ryan the filthy centrist:

Lorie, I think that your call for some serious discussions about the war in Iraq are in good order. There is definitely a great deal of political posturing and machinations going on at present--but I would argue that this isn't unique to just one side of the political spectrum.

To start off, let me be up front and say that I was against going into Iraq from the get go. If you want to get into the reasons why, well, just ask.

Regarding pulling out of Iraq: I tend to agree that setting some artificial timeline doesn't make sense. But then, there does, in my opinion, need to be a major shift in the way that we are dealing with things over there, and we certainly need some new ideas for how to bring about some kind of peaceful resolution. I do not think that a prolonged urban/guerrilla war is going to accomplish much beyond further leveling Baghdad and Iraq as a whole.

I was against going in there, but now I am fully aware of the fact that we are IN THERE now, and that we all need to start working together to find some kind of real solution. We need solutions, dialogue, ideas, and debate more than we need one-sided political pandering and slander (that applies to both Liberals and Conservatives).

Here are some of my responses to a few of John Hawkins' predictions/fears about pulling out of Iraq:

* The end of democracy in Iraq.

Whatever Democracy that is in Iraq is highly tentative and conditional. We all know it. It was created under our watch, and built very much according to US wishes. Making the claim that the Iraqi government somehow represents the 26 or so million people of Iraq is, in my opinion, a little ridiculous. When they are deciding what they do and do not want, WITHOUT being occupied by a foreign military, THEN I think we can start talking about an actualy functioning democracy.

* Millions of Iraqis killed in a real "civil war."

What would make that a "real" civil war? Aren't people in Iraq killing one another right now based upon political, ethnic, or other sectarian divisions? Why is that any less real?

One thing I don't get is why many people keep arguing this point about civil war...it seems pretty clear to me that there are many divisions in Iraq, and that a large number of people are being killed. Civil war seems a fairly apt description of what we're seeing over there.

Here is a quick definition from the American Heritage dictionary:

A war between factions or regions of the same country.

According to American Heritage, it does appear that we have civil war in Iraq, IMO. Of course, I do understand that certain folks don't want that to be admitted, for obvious political reasons.

The only thing that kept a lid on all of this was the brutal rule of Saddam Hussein...this civil war was inevitable for a nation that has never really been very ideologically united. But then, that makes me wonder about how Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds have been able to coexist peacefully in the past...looking into that might give us some possibilities for negotiation and resolution.

* The invasion of Iraq by Iran and/or Turkey.

I think that this one is a definite possibility and a potentially massive problem which could make things much worse over there. I keep wondering about what is going to happen with the Turkish Kurds and the Iraqi Kurds, and if something bigger is going to erupt between them and Turkish govt troops.

And Iraq is going to be threatened by Iran as long as Iran holds greater military and economic power. If we pulled out, it does seem plausible that Iran would attempt something to gain control/influence. This is something that we are trying to prevent, among other things.

I know why we're there, and it's less about democracy and freedom than it is about regional political and military control. We're there because we want a say in how things play out. I wish more people could be honest and at least admit that. If we were really worried about democracy, well, we wouldn't have spent the last half of the 20th century supporting and tolerating dictators in the Middle East, Africa, and Latin America. In a certain sense, we're now dealing with the fallout from numberous post-colonial governments that turned to violence and repression as a means of control.

* A massive spike in worldwide oil prices if all the oil from Iraq is cut off in the fighting.

Interesting, since I hear so many people emphasizing the idea that this war has nothing to do with oil...

Of course, I don't believe a word of that. There is one major reason why we have been building up a presence in the Middle East since the 1970s, and it ain't because of all the sandy beaches.

In the fall of 2002 it was ... (Below threshold)
dr lava:

In the fall of 2002 it was obvious to a lot of people how this Iraq debacle would unfold. It has proceeded exactly as we predicted. A nightmare. You war cheerleaders should have been reading Sy Hersh not listening to Hannity.

There is something wrong with you people.

Unfortunately, dr lava, sou... (Below threshold)
ryan the filthy centrist:

Unfortunately, dr lava, sound-bite spewing, stereotype-slinging, "experts" like Hannity get far too much air time and attention around these parts. We have versions of this character to satisfy both sides of the political market (left and right).

We take our political cues, in large part, from these entertainers who pose as experts. These self-proclaimed experts give their audiences the answers that they want to hear, and frame it all as news. It's depressing.

It is interesting to see wh... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

It is interesting to see what the Dems and liberals were saying about Iraq in the fall of 2002 and before!

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/stacks/democrat.guest.html

This one is funny. Wonder why so many liberals were willing to vote for Kerry back then

John Kerry > January 31, 2003
"If you don't believe...Saddam Hussein
is a threat with nuclear weapons, then
you shouldn't vote for me."

LoveAmerica Immigrant,... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:

LoveAmerica Immigrant,

Making lefties eat their own words.....so easy a caveman can do it.

In the fall of 2002 it was obvious to a lot of people how this Iraq debacle would unfold. .......dr lava

From the front runner Democratic Party Presidential contender....and the smartest women on the planet.....

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock. His missile delivery capability, his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists including Al-Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons....Senator Hillary Clinton > October 10, 2002

and

I voted for the Iraqi resolution. I consider the prospect of a nuclear-armed Saddam Hussein who can threaten not only his neighbors but the stability of the region and the world, a very serious threat to the United States."... Hillary Clinton > January 22, 2003

I wonder if she made this up or was told to say this or maybe, just maybe she did her own homework.

Did I mention she was the frontrunner for the Democratic Party nomination in 2008?

Postal, you are a sad excus... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Postal, you are a sad excuse for a human being. If you are one. I think you are a piece of shit endowed with ai. Watch out for karma, you dumb fuck. It is about to strike you.

Dr. Scumbag. You mean you ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Dr. Scumbag. You mean you have created a self fulfilling situation? The only people who think this is lost are you and the lying media who keep pumping bs at the public. CNN harps daily on how many we have lost each day. Do you think WWII could have been won if one party and the media were screaming we've lost, we've lost every fucking day? You personally are a cowardly traitor who hides behind his anonimity on the internet to spew fithy lies. It is not possible to get lower than you are, but you have company. Funny thing is they are all Democrats except for Hagel.

This is directed to Zelsdor... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

This is directed to Zelsdorf's last comment, and to several other commenters in this and other threads -- watch the language and the attacks on other commenters. Let's elevate the discussion a notch, okay? I have been a bit snarky lately, but will turn it down a bit. Let's all play nice.

Well Lorie, a couple of us ... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Well Lorie, a couple of us have tried to have a civil and serious discussion, other choose a different route.

One comment I would like to add to is the Turkey/Kurd/Iran pending situation. This has been one of the least reported aspect of the imploding crises in Iraq.

I have read accounts of Iranian shelling into Kurdish territory and Kurdish terrorists attacking in both Turkey and Iran.

Stay tuned for more!

Hi Barnie Cutie, Yo... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Hi Barnie Cutie,
You have problems with pointing the things the Dems and liberals said in the Fall of 2002? Then you should tell other liberals to go elsewhere with their cheap talking points. Thanks for the agreement.

Lorie, One of the p... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Lorie,
One of the problems with the impending crisis in Iraq is that we have a whole political party in the US (in this case the Dem party) that seems willing to embrace defeat for America. They seem to work hard to provide encouragement and propaganda to the terrorists. Just wonder how we should deal with this effort to make it harder for our military in Iraq.

Lorie, I find it difficult ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Lorie, I find it difficult to "play nice" with persons who have no problem with flatout lying. There are people here who are either present to opppose anthing intelligent written here or just post the most outragious BS to be found outside of the daily Kos. My God, even Mantis questioned the contentions of a couple of them. I went into shock.

LAI, you should read or wat... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

LAI, you should read or watch the interview of Joe Biden on Meet the Press this last Sunday. Also, when the weapon inspectors completed over one hundred inspections without finding a single violation, or when the UN lead Nuke investigator el Baradei issued his final report that Saddam DID NOT have any active Nuke programs, tell me how many Dems were calling for an invasion?

LAI, don't try to pass this off as some bi partisan cluster fuck because nobody outside the delusional 28% of the right wing party believes you.

Barney,REad the link... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Barney,
REad the link for what Biden said about Iraq in 2002. If he said otherwise in the interview, then we can treat him as a liar.

Then as you said, all the dems in the link provided above was simply lying about it also. They knew everything about El-Baradei said and still said those things in 2002/2003 and now turned around pretending they didn't say anything. At least we can agree that the current Dem crops are not honest. Just look at what the dem congress is doing to see how honest they are.

Just another link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction


Here is what Biden said in ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Here is what Biden said in Aug 2002. At least we can agree that the Dems are not serious about national security. I wonder why the liberals would go to the mat making excuses for a guy like Saddam Hussein. We can see that France, Russian, Chinese, and the whole UN appratus only cared about the oil-for-food bribery from Saddam. What do liberals care about?

Joe Biden > August 4, 2002
"This is a guy who is an extreme danger to the world, and this is a guy who is in every way possible seeking weapons of mass destruction."


Joe Biden > August 4, 2002

"[H]e does have the capacity, as all terrorist-related operations do, of smuggling stuff into the United States and doing something terrible. That is true. But there's been no connection, hard connection made yet between he and al-Qaida or his willingness or effort to do that thus far. Doesn't mean he won't. This is a bad guy."

Barney - the bleeding has s... (Below threshold)
SShiell:

Barney - the bleeding has stopped for the moment - it is over. But the next time you roll out one of your Dhimmocratic heros like Joe Biden to help you out with a discussion, I wouldn't bend over.

Does any one else see the l... (Below threshold)
Live@9:

Does any one else see the large dose of irony in the opening paragraph of this thread?

So now you guys are concerned about what happens if we "ignore discussion of the consequences of the actions (or inactions) they propose".

Where were your concerns 5 years ago when the war PR machine was in full swing?

You guys never disappoint, you'll always try to shift the blame to the other guys. I guess that's about all conservatives have left nowadays.

You guys never di... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:
You guys never disappoint, you'll always try to shift the blame to the other guys. I guess that's about all conservatives have left nowadays

When throwing lefties own words at them I like to think of it more as putting the witness list together for the defense in the big impeachment trial.

Plus it's really fun. They can only stammer and post things like....well...er....your post for example.

oh look, another thread tha... (Below threshold)
ryan the filthy centrist:

oh look, another thread that has once again degraded into the usual left/right bitchfest. how surprising.




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