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Blue state

This weekend, much of New Hampshire is in a state of shock and sadness. For the second time in less than a year, a police officer has been shot and killed in the line of duty.

A 24-year-old ne'er-do-well (and cousin of Olympic skiing champion Bode Miller) from Franconia, New Hampshire named Liko Kenney had a long-standing feud with a Franconia police officer, Corporal Bruce McKay. Three years ago, Kenney was convicted of assaulting McKay. Last week, the feud came to a bitter end.

Friday evening, McKay pulled over Kenney for speeding and registration issues. When Kenney recognized McKay, he asked for another officer to handle the traffic stop. When McKay refused to summon another officer to the scene, Kenney drove off. McKay followed him and pulled him over again, and Kenney shot McKay four times in the chest, then ran him over.

A bystander, a 49-year-old retired Marine named Gregory Floyd, saw the whole thing and acted. He put his truck between Kenney and McKay, then went to the officer's aid. He took McKay's pistol and shot Kenney, then called for help.

It was too late, though. Both McKay and Kenney were dead.

A fuller account can be found here.


Comments (76)

My thoughts and prayers are... (Below threshold)

My thoughts and prayers are with this officer's family and friends, and to the Marine who stopped to attempt to render aid, God bless you, and thank you!

"Greater love has no one th... (Below threshold)

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." --John 15:13.

Hmmmmmmmm.Am I the... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

Hmmmmmmmm.

Am I the only one reading this who's thinking that the cop sounds like a serious asshole who had a pre-existing hard-on for this Kenney guy and was looking for any reason to harass him?

Put three more milligrams of spin on this tale and it becomes:

"Cop sees guy he hates driving along, and decides to fuck with him. He pulls him over, and the guy, citing their longstanding dislike for each other, asks (quite reasonably, in my book) that a cop without an axe to grind handle the traffic stop. Cop decides that wouldn't be much fun, and refuses. Guy drives off. Cop chases him and runs him off the road. Cop walks up and hoses the guy and his passenger down with chemical mace. Guy - at long last - decides he's had enough of the cop's harassive bullshit and puts four in the cop's ten-ring."

SS

ss-another Alan Combs.Perfe... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

ss-another Alan Combs.Perfectly ok to kill a cop you don't like. Nice!!!!

Perhaps if Liko Kenney had ... (Below threshold)
John S:

Perhaps if Liko Kenney had gotten a prison sentence on the first assault conviction (and not a stern finger waving by the judge) this wouldn't of happened. At least Kenny won't be let off this time.

Yeah, good old SS... the ap... (Below threshold)

Yeah, good old SS... the appropriate response for alleged police harassment is the death of the cop.

ss-another Alan Combs.Pe... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

ss-another Alan Combs.Perfectly ok to kill a cop you don't like. Nice!!!!

That's a convenient strawman, and I'm sure someone of your obviously limited intellectual powers can't do any better, but if we read this story without a priori assuming that the cop is in the right, it's possible to envision a situation where the harassed citizen felt he had no other choice.

SS

the appropriate response... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

the appropriate response for alleged police harassment is the death of the cop.

Hmmmmm. The motorist had already asked for an impartial cop to respond and handle the stop - and the cop refused. So the motorist tried to drive off - and the cop ran him off the road. Then the cop charges up and maces the guy.

I'm just saying that there's something fundamentally fucked up with this story, and before we all break out the hankies and start awarding posthumous Medals Of Freedom to Officer McKay, we might want to reflect on whether it's a real brilliant idea for police officers with a long history of violent encounters with certain citizens not to recuse themselves from dealing with those individuals whenever possible.

SS

ss:"...the harasse... (Below threshold)
epador:

ss:

"...the harassed citizen had no other choice..."

Oh give me a break. Apologist for a cop killer. Like shooting him and then running over him was self defense. SS, I think AQ or Hamas has a spot for you in their Public Relations Department. Perhaps the endowed J. Goebbels chair of Political Spin. Your initials are indeed appropriate.

Riiiiight, The proper respo... (Below threshold)

Riiiiight, The proper response to mace is to shoot someone.

I imagine you're going to suggest a Medal of Honor for the suspect, now, for "standing up to da man."

Wow. The cop had a gun, and... (Below threshold)
Herman:

Wow. The cop had a gun, and had expertise in using the gun. But one thing that the cop did not have: foreknowledge that a crime was going to be committed. The criminal had that. So while the cop's gun was worthless in preventing the cop from being shot to death, the criminal's gun proved lethal.

So what deep lessons can be learned from all this, conservatives? Think (for once) before answering.

How many more must be murdered by the gun before you "pro-life" conservatives realize that too many have been murdered already?

In a sign that Massachusifi... (Below threshold)

In a sign that Massachusification isn't complete, New Hampshire authorities have said no charges will be filed against Mr. Floyd.


sanssoucy ~ If you hate cops so much, then the next time you're in trouble, call a hippy.

SS:Reading this st... (Below threshold)
Howcome:

SS:

Reading this story you might have a point about this cop being an ahole, or maybe not, and using his position for an advantage in this feud. But, this scumbag shot him and then ran him over. A little overboard don't you think.

Herman, looks like we'll ha... (Below threshold)
The Exposer:

Herman, looks like we'll have to outlaw automobiles, too. After all, the cop was run over.

Herman, I agree.We... (Below threshold)

Herman, I agree.

We should abolish all self-shooting guns. Guns that fire themselves are just wrong.

Herman, looks like we'll... (Below threshold)

Herman, looks like we'll have to outlaw automobiles, too. After all, the cop was run over.

Don't laugh, I'm sure he'd love to do that. Everyone gets to ride the bus in Herman's utopia.

He resisted arrest before u... (Below threshold)
kim:

He resisted arrest before unreasonable force was used. He didn't shoot the marine. How did he hit the officer after being maced, four times in the ten ring?

I have no justifications or answers. Lots of questions.
===================================

The guy was known. He coul... (Below threshold)
kim:

The guy was known. He could have been pursued the next day. Resisting arrest was already documented.

This is road rage.
==========

I'd say he was carrying ill... (Below threshold)
kim:

I'd say he was carrying illegally, too.
======================

Once he drove off, the situ... (Below threshold)
kim:

Once he drove off, the situation was out of control. The officer should have waited for back-up before intervening further.

Ain't I a great Monday morning quarterback?
===============

Am I the only one reading t... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Am I the only one reading this who's thinking that Liko Kenney had a serious impulse-control problem?

Liko Kenney, 24, of Franconia, convicted in 2003 of assaulting Franconia Police Cpl. Bruce McKay, shot him dead Friday night and then ran over him with his Toyota, authorities said yesterday at a Concord press conference. ...

McKay's cruiser videotaped the incident. The tape shows McKay, who had not drawn his gun, being shot by Kenney. ...

Friday, when McKay refused to call in another officer, Kenney drove off. ...

Kenney fired his Colt .45, as McKay walked away, hitting the officer four times in the "upper trunk", according to Ayotte. ...

McKay collapsed in the road, and then Kenney ran over him, pinning the officer under his car. ...

Floyd pointed the gun at Kenney, who was still in his car holding the Colt .45, and told him to drop the gun. When Kenney failed to comply, Floyd pulled the trigger, killing the 24-year-old man.

Oh, for fuck's sake; now it... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

Oh, for fuck's sake; now it's tantamount to being a Nazi (or [laughter] Osama Bin Laden himself) to not accept at face value a highly dubious story of a cop who just happens to get killed on a traffic stop with a guy whose jaw the cop once broke?

Dear rightwingnuts; picture Janet Reno as this cop, and maybe you'll start to figure out a different way to read this story.

SS

Cherchez la femme.==... (Below threshold)
kim:

Cherchez la femme.
=============

Dear rightwingnuts; picture... (Below threshold)
baslimthecriplpe:

Dear rightwingnuts; picture Janet Reno as this cop, and maybe you'll start to figure out a different way to read this story.

Gee, SS, until this bit you had me going there.

Reading the report it appea... (Below threshold)
Howcome:

Reading the report it appears the cop did act like an ass. After stopping the car the second time he runs up maces the driver and passenger? Then he turns his back and walks away. I don't understand this, to mace or pepper spray someone and then turn your back to them is insane. It seems the cop might have been trying a little road side justice. None of this justifies shooting someone but I think the cop was acting like an ass. Before I get flamed let me confess I have been in LE for over 8yrs now so I know how to spot bully cops.

None of this justifies s... (Below threshold)

None of this justifies shooting someone but I think the cop was acting like an ass.

I'll agree, from that report, the cop was being a grade-A jerk.

However, SS is being an even bigger jerk by suggesting that this justifies the suspect shooting him.

And, SS, please, try to post one message without dropping the f-bomb. It might make some people take you a little more seriously.

There is a lot about this s... (Below threshold)
horse:

There is a lot about this story that does not make sense or is incomplete. They both sound as if they had possible impulse control and maturity/judgment problems, not uncommon in 24 year old working class males in a small town.

Nothing justifies the unnecessary murder of the police officer, but the officer's actions do not make sense. He had a guy he knew to be trouble backed into a corner and then he turned his back on him after assaulting him, without body armor or backup. It appears family and friends knew something like this was possible due to their numerous prior physical altercations.

This is likely textbook of how not to confront a high probability violent situation. Very sad and avoidable.

"They both sound as if they... (Below threshold)

"They both sound as if they had possible impulse control and maturity/judgment problems, not uncommon in 24 year old working class males in a small town."

Wow.

Not classist, elitist or racist are we. Sheesh.

As for ss... nice to know what you think justifies murder. Shot him while he was walking away. Oh, like that's self-defense or something. Oh, sure it is!

sanssoucy:it's... (Below threshold)
marc:

sanssoucy:

it's possible to envision a situation where the harassed citizen felt he had no other choice.

NO other choice (during a traffic stop) but to kill the officer that stopped you!!!!

I guess you assume the officer drew his gun in the process, or...

... you truly are delusional.

Synova, I grew up in a smal... (Below threshold)
horse:

Synova, I grew up in a small working class town, still have family in a small working class town. Everything is personal there, you know everyone and not everyone gets along.

The young ones that have stayed do not often display cooperative social skills. They go to the local taverns, get drunk and often fight. Every time I go back and hit the hometown bars a few fights break out between a couple of locals, often between a couple of guys with a negative history.

If you follow all the links in the article you will learn these two guys had a long bad violent history, with the driver usually the loser in each documented encounter. The other guy happened to be a young cop who, for unknown reasons, did not follow good procedure in an out of control situation. The driver let his personal emotions take over and make him flee a scene and commit a horrendous crime.

The whole thing shouts lack of control, maturity and judgment. I have seen dozens of small town guys this age go down the same stupid path and exhibit the same stupid behavior.

The other guy happ... (Below threshold)
The other guy happened to be a young cop who, for unknown reasons, did not follow good procedure in an out of control situation.

Corporal McKay was 48 -- literally twice Kenney's age.

McKay's age is omitted from the Union Leader article I linked to, but given in the Boston Globe account here.

I think that kinda puts a damper on your theory, horse...

J.

(I intended to be much snider to horse, but then discovered that I had access to more info than I had provided in the story, and to expect horse to have looked for Corporal McKay's age elsewhere was unfair.)

Truly, all the worse that h... (Below threshold)
kim:

Truly, all the worse that he was 48 years old. How long had he been out of control?
========================

Trying to say that the cop ... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Trying to say that the cop was an asshole and deserved it is ridiculous. How about not messing with the cops in the first place and how about not doing crimes that put you in the situation to be harrassed in the first place?

I don't mess with cops because they are the enforcers of the law. Whether you like it or not, police officers arrest people that break laws. I as a private citizen don't get to choose which cop i get to arrest me, or pull me over, nor do i get to choose how the laws are enforced. NO ONE in this country has the right to shoot a police officer who they think is harassing them. even if you think a police officer poses a threat to you, like it or not, but you don't have the right to resist a police officer.

For better or worse, if a police officer tells you to do something, you better do it. In the vast majority of cases (obviously not this one) the police officer will get the best of you. Police are the wrong people to be trying to pick fights with.

Once again, if you don't like that police officers enforce laws, then i think you need to find an island similar to the one the people on lost are on and colonize it yourself. Start your own little commune and you won't have to ever worry about those pesky little "laws" and "law enforcement" again. Obviously this tool posed a danger to the community by the simple fact that he shot at a cop. I'm glad that scumbag was killed by the marine and i only wish everyone with the murderous intentions he has meets a similar fate. I feel no sympathy for ANYONE who is harmed while committing a crime, especially not in this case.

Plus, check the code-words ... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

Plus, check the code-words in the stories in the Union-Leader:

McKay was a 12-year veteran of the small police force in a town of 900 people, and yesterday was remembered for his dedication to upholding the law -- but with conflicting, and sometimes strong, emotions.

TRANSLATION: "McKay was a typical black-glove, strutting tin god, worst-case local cop - the kind just about everyone loathes."

"He was a local law enforcement officer in a small town and he felt he was doing what was right,"

TRANSLATION: "He was a stone frakking psycho."

"Some thought he was rigid in coming down on the side of the law"

TRANSLATION: "Everybody thought he was Franconia's Adolf Eichmann."

And even the headline:

"McKay remembered as both dedicated, complex"

TRANSLATION:

"McKay remembered as both dogmatic, looney."

SS

sanssoucy is quite disturbe... (Below threshold)
la:

sanssoucy is quite disturbed, get some help.

Trying to say that the c... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

Trying to say that the cop was an asshole and deserved it is ridiculous. How about not messing with the cops in the first place and how about not doing crimes that put you in the situation to be harrassed in the first place?

[laughter]

That a lovely theory, but it assumes that it's impossible for cops to be untrained, psychotic local-yokel clowns who will harass someone for no good reason - an assumption I fervently hope you never find out is wrong.

Yeah. Whew. What logic you're displaying; the way to avoid unjust government harassment is to "not mess with government."

Briiiiiilliant.

SS

"Everyone gets to ride the ... (Below threshold)
Herman:

"Everyone gets to ride the bus in Herman's utopia." -- C-C-G

To hell with buses! Everyone would get to ride bullet trains (150+ km/hr. !) and bicycles, and smog and obesity rates would go way down. No more gas-guzzling SUVs for you poor conservatives, too bad.

horse, I betcha my home tow... (Below threshold)

horse, I betcha my home town was smaller than your home town.

And you know what else? Every small town also has its share of those that put on airs. And no matter how small, its got its share of people who think that their experience defines everyone elses. Knowing everyone's business is an illusion.

I've lived other places, too. And amazingly enough human nature stays the same. Nothing "small town" about it.

And sanssoucy just keeps di... (Below threshold)

And sanssoucy just keeps digging a bigger hole because even if everything she says is true... it doesn't excuse or explain the murder, that happened. It doesn't matter how badly behaved either person was, only one of them deserved to die and that was the one who drew first and killed the other.

Kenney made a number of bad... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Kenney made a number of bad choices:
1. If he has a conviction for resisting arrest, it is very unlikely that he had a permit to carry a handgun in NH. Carrying the gun in his car is stupid, because if he is stopped and searched, the gun will be found and he will go to prison.
2. He is suspected of speeding. His "registration problem" is probably a failure to pay his fees and display the proper safety inspection sticker on his windshield. Everyone in NH has to do it; it is in plain sight. If you get caught, the police can issue a citation and tow your car.
3. Kenney got pulled over by a cop he didn't like - possibly didn't trust. What could he do? He could have proceeded and sued if he was unfairly treated (video equipment in cop cars is a big help in preventing police abuse). People sue police departments all the time. He could simply lock the doors, throw his hands up, and wait for another police officer. He'll get arrested, but he'll get to deal with another officer, and he can explain to the judge that he acted out of fear. Instead, he ignored the lawful orders of a police officer, resisted arrest (again), and tried to get away in Franconia (which has very few roads) in a Toyota Celica. Incredibly stupid.
4. He gets stopped. He's not going to get away. He just got sprayed. But the police officer isn't beating on him, threatening him, or even watching him. The officer is walking away. Kenney could have chosen to just stop. No, he decides that his best course of action is to shoot the officer several times.
5. He then decides that getting away or giving up isn't his best option. Oh, no, instead he decides to run over the officer's body.
6. He then decides that getting away or giving up isn't his best option. Instead (according to the Globe) he decides to reload his gun.
7. When confronted by an armed citizen, he refused.

Kenney made a series of bad choices, and it cost him his life.

Now, concerning the police officer's use of pepper spray after the chase:

We've all seen police officers pull over suspects after a high speed chase. What does the officer do? In every case that I have seen in real life and on TV, the officer pulls his gun and orders the suspects the show their hands. He then orders them out of the car and arrests them. What happens when they don't comply? He shoots them.

This officer used a non-lethal method of trying to get Kenney under control. If he deploys his weapon on a guy who is that crazy, he is going to have to use it. If you think that the officer used the pepper spray because he wanted to hurt or bully the kid, then please explain why he would use something as whimpy as pepper spray when he has a gun strapped to his hip?

I agree with one of the comments above that says the officer should not have turned his back on the suspects after spraying them. I'm sorry to say that I think that is correct.

Enough stupid mistakes to c... (Below threshold)
kim:

Enough stupid mistakes to cause a tragedy. Next time, the passenger will youtube the boobs.
===============================

Synova, your comments are c... (Below threshold)
horse:

Synova, your comments are coming off a little strange. And I am very certain I have seen more small towns and lived in more places than anyone posting here.

I've been everywhere, man, ... (Below threshold)
kim:

I've been everywhere, man, I've been everywhere.
==============================

According to <a href="http:... (Below threshold)

According to Wikipedia, my home town had a population of 1,081 in the last census. (Well, technically, the "town's" population was 4,416, and my village was 1,081, but close enough for jazz.) My high school graduating class was 64. So do I win the prize for smallest home town?

Huh. I always knew it was a really, really white town. Turns out that it's 98.06% white. That means there's about 21 non-whites living there. Seems like it's gotten a little more diverse since I left there, nearly 20 years ago...

J.

When he was 39 years old, C... (Below threshold)
Travis:

When he was 39 years old, Corporal Bruce McKay of the Franconia Police Department broke the jaw of Liko Kenney, who was then 15 years old and in school. There is a name for a full-grown man who, for any reason, breaks the jaw of a child -- a bully. And sometimes a bully continues to provoke a victim until he finally snaps and fights back.

Rest in peace, Liko.

Travis,Kenney file... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Travis,

Kenney filed a lawsuit concerning the attack and then withdrew it because he had no case (no witness). If a large 15-year old attacks another man, and the man hits back, the broken jaw can be the likely outcome. Calling the officer a "bully" is based on, what? Middle-aged police officers should never strike a teenager? Ever? I'm sure that you can produce NH state law or police policy guidelines to back that up. Or, perhaps, you know something about the incident that the rest of don't. I doubt it.

The fact is that a middle-aged man hitting and breaking the jaw of a 15-year old is insufficient -- in and of itself -- to say that the adult was wrong. If it was, then the case would not have been dropped, would it?

There is a name for a teenager who would attack a police officer: crazy.

Kenney's aunt feared for her safety and got a restraining order against her nephew in 2003.
Kenney pleaded guilty to resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer in 2003 when he grabbed McKay in the groin area after an incident escalated at a parking lot.
While awaiting trial on those charges, Kenney was also written up for severing an electronic bracelet.

Of course, Kenney could have chosen to just move away or get along. But friends say that he was "not one to back down". I guess not.

Investigators said the shooting was justified because Floyd asked Kenney several times to put down his gun, but Kenney refused.


RE: McKay as a "bully"... (Below threshold)
kevino:

RE: McKay as a "bully"

As I said before, can someone please explain to me how it is that McKay used pepper spray and walked away instead of his gun if he was such a bully or had it in for Kenney?

And there is this from his profile:

During the nor'easter last month, which hit portions of Franconia particularly hard, Hart said McKay had a lot of contact with older residents, making sure they were safe in the aftermath and helping to coordinate local shelter arrangements. ...

Two years ago, Rob Hayward of Sugar Hill lost his son, Seery, in a car accident on Route 302 in Bethlehem. Serry and Liko Kenney were best friends.

Yesterday, like many, he was trying to make sense of what went so wrong between Kenney and McKay.

"McKay was a good officer -- I always liked McKay," Hayward said. "He always treated me with respect."

Hayward said McKay had stopped his son.

"He got him twice for speeding -- (Serry) was going at a good clip, but he gave him a break.

"He did a good job for the community," Hayward added. "He even wrote Bode a speeding ticket."

McKay prosecuted ski champion Bode Miller for a speeding ticket in October 2005, an incident that was captured on McKay's cruiser's video camera, for driving 83 mph in a 40 mph zone on Route 116, not far from where McKay was killed.

McKay could have arrested Miller for driving to endanger, but didn't. Not, exactly, a tough guy.

Allow me to make one thing ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Allow me to make one thing clear, I have absolutely no sympathy for Kenney. But I have a different opinion that your kevino:

As I said before, can someone please explain to me how it is that McKay used pepper spray and walked away instead of his gun if he was such a bully or had it in for Kenney?
If McKay just uses his gun and orders Kenney out of the vehicle, what physical harm comes to Kenney? Nothing. But if McKay pepper sprays him, he has then inflicted that physical harm and will most likely arrest him after the fact as well.

It's just the way I feel a bully would act. And that is the one part of this whole story I can not understand. Why did McKay go pepper spray him and then walk away, it just doesn't make sense. If Kenney was resisting you would think he would spray him and drag him out of the car all at once. Then again, I'm not a cop.

As for why McKay did not ca... (Below threshold)
Cousin Dave:

As for why McKay did not call for backup, in a small-town force, it's quite possible that there was no other officer with a cruiser available on the shift. Calling the sheriff probably would have involved a long delay. I'm sure McKay just wanted to write the darn ticket and get it over with.

J.R.As I said befo... (Below threshold)
kevino:

J.R.

As I said before, the problem with deploying your gun in a situation like this is that you rely on your suspect to make the rational decision to give up. He probably decided that Kenney was too out of control for that to work, and the situation would escalate further, resulting in McKay having to use his handgun.

Furthermore, Kenney could clearly get away. In fact, once McKay was dead, he did drive part way. His car still worked. If he tries to drive off again and McKay pulls out his gun, what is he allowed to do? What is he supposed to do? Answer to both questions: open fire.

If a bar fight, especially a large one, is going on, police do not use threats. In fact, they frequently say little if anything. They use pepper spray to clear the room and grab the real trouble-makers as they stumble out the door.

Why did he spray him and walk away? He probably felt that that should take care of it until help arrives. (And, yes, I'll bet he radio'd that he had pursued Kenney.) As it turns out, that was a huge mistake.

Kenney was about to be arrested on numerous charges. He had already been given sufficient opportunity to give up. At that point, a police officer would not be allowed (IMHO) to use deadly force, but he is allowed to use force or, in your words, to inflict harm. If Kenney resists further, threatens the officer, or tries to drive off, McKay can shoot him.

If it was McKay's goal to really hurt Kenney, pepper spray is not his best weapon. He pulls out his gun and waits for Kenney to make a fatal mistake.

J.R.I forgot to an... (Below threshold)
kevino:

J.R.

I forgot to answer your other issue: why not spray him and drag Kenney out of the car?

1. He doesn't want to get that close to the material, especially if he is working alone. If is too easy to get the particles in your eyes from the OC spray - either from the two men or the inside of the car. If he's handling them and some of the material ends up in his face, it can effect his ability to act if the situation gets difficult. In particular, if they continue to resist, he'll have to use grappling techniques, and that can be a pain with OC in your eyes.
2. There are two of them and only one of him.
3. They may be armed.

He probably wanted to ensure that they didn't drive off and wait for backup.

kevino,We'd have t... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

kevino,

We'd have to look at the police manuals for the area to see how the situation should have been handled or maybe the video has more info. From what has been described, it doesn't sound like Kenney could have just gotten away as you described it. Again though, I'm not justifying Kenney's actions, I think he eventually got what he deserved.

If Kenney resists further, threatens the officer, or tries to drive off, McKay can shoot him.

Uh, no he can't. If Kenney had tried to run him down, then yes, he could use deadly force, but not if Kenney tries to run again. Are you kidding?

If it was McKay's goal to really hurt Kenney, pepper spray is not his best weapon. He pulls out his gun and waits for Kenney to make a fatal mistake.

Not if he valued his life and career.

I think McKay let emotions get the best of him and acted out in a way to inflict harm on Kenney without crossing the line into brutality. I just don't see a reason to pepper spray and then turn your back (if that's what happened) and walk away. You never turn your back on a volatile situation like this.

2. There are two o... (Below threshold)
J.R.:
2. There are two of them and only one of him.

3. They may be armed.

He probably wanted to ensure that they didn't drive off and wait for backup.

All the more reason to draw your weapon and hold them at bay until back-up arrives. Why would you want to engage 2 suspects with pepper spray, who you have to suspect may be armed, by yourself and without drawing your weapon? Why would you do that before back-up arrives? How does aggravating the situation be pepper-spraying him help in this scenario?

J.R.RE: "If Kenney... (Below threshold)
kevino:

J.R.

RE: "If Kenney had tried to run him down, then yes, he could use deadly force, but not if Kenney tries to run again. Are you kidding?"

No, I'm not. Have you seen any police video of what happens after a chase? A single cop (particularly highway patrol that operate alone) firing at a fleeing suspect? It happens a lot. And if McKay stands behind the car and his car blocks the front (which, I think it was), of course Kenney will be backing up at him, and that is even better reason to shoot.

You can't rely on threats (e.g. the threat from pointing your gun at someone) if the person is not rational. Sorry. That's the way it works.

I've forgotten the exact percentages, but in something like 85% of cases when an officer pulls his gun, the suspect gives up. There is a small percentage that run, but about 7% attack. Even if the suspect attacks unarmed, it is assumed that his goal is to kill you with your own gun. The officer is supposed to shoot. I asked one of my instructors about that, once (long ago). He said that there are some people, particularly on certain drugs, that cannot be reasoned with, and you end up having to shoot them.


RE: "You never turn your back on a volatile situation like this."

No argument from me.


RE: "How does aggravating the situation be pepper-spraying him help in this scenario?"

Pulling your gun and making threats aggravates the situation, too. Kenney is descibed as a person that doesn't "back down". I think that McKay thought that the situation was under-control and he could wait for backup. He got a nasty surprise.

I notice that you didn't say anything about point #1. Mainly, after you spray someone, you really want to keep away from the stuff.

No, I'm not. Have ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:
No, I'm not. Have you seen any police video of what happens after a chase? A single cop (particularly highway patrol that operate alone) firing at a fleeing suspect?

Yes, I have seen numerous videos of police chases, but I have never seen an officer shooting at a fleeing suspect for the sole reason that the suspect is fleeing.

And if McKay stands behind the car and his car blocks the front (which, I think it was), of course Kenney will be backing up at him, and that is even better reason to shoot.

Of course, that would be trying to run him down, which as I stated would justification to shoot him.

I agree with your first point 1. I have worked with pepper spray and it's nasty and you don't want that stuff in your own eyes.

I still can't get past the turning your back or spraying before back-up gets there. There is where we disagree, the actions as described as of now, don't make sense for a police officer acting prudently. A lot of McKay's actions seemed to be based on emotion rather than police training.

BTW, are you a cop?

In a small town like Franco... (Below threshold)
outsider:

In a small town like Franconia, considering their pasts, won't Mckay know that Kenney had firearm due to registry (assuming he did register) and the fact naturally that he wants to know his enemy--and a potential for violence.

Seems like Mckay was looking for an opportunity to provoke Kenney again to the point where he could legally bomb his car with OC, walk away and wait for the cavalry to arrive?

In the precedence of the tragic Michaeal Briggs death where police power has been inflated and put on a pedestal, cops, especially in rural towns really can excercise their cowboy-cop role. This really does sound like road-rage ending in the worst-case scenario.

Is there precedent for exuding vehicular force to stop Kenney immediatly? Where is he going to hide? Again, just seems like road-rage/cat-and-mouse and Mckay didn't want to be stumped by the crafty miller/kenney clan once again.

J.R.RE: "Yes, I ha... (Below threshold)
kevino:

J.R.

RE: "Yes, I have seen numerous videos of police chases, but I have never seen an officer shooting at a fleeing suspect for the sole reason that the suspect is fleeing."

OK, well, consider:
1. Cop pulls over motorist for speeding.
2. Cop gets out of car.
3. Suspect puts car in gear and takes off.
4. Suspect refuses to stop.
5. Cop runs him off the road.
6. Cop approaches suspect with gun drawn.
7. The cop is alone. He has asked for backup, but it will be a long time in coming.

Now, this second traffic stop is different than the first. The suspect has committed several crimes. The officer has reason to believe that the suspect is a danger to the community, and the suspect is operating a deadly force weapon (i.e. an automobile).

What happens if the officer orders the suspect to turn off the car, put their hands in plain sight, etc., but the suspect proceeds to drive off again?

Do you actually believe that the officer does not have the right to affect an arrest using deadly force? In particular, his only other choice is to let the suspect go and give chase again and again until he gets help. Do you really believe that the officer is displaying his gun but won't use it except to protect himself from an imminent threat? Do you really think that his commands are a bluff?

If you have any real doubts, I suggest that you call the state highway patrol in your state and give them that scenario.

RE: "Of course, that would be trying to run him down, which as I stated would justification to shoot him."

Then you agree with my point that if McKay plans correctly and if Kenney acts agressively, McKay can shoot him. Based on that idea, I don't think McKay was looking for a way to permanently hurt him.


RE: "A lot of McKay's actions seemed to be based on emotion rather than police training."

In the training that I have received I learned a simple fact: you can't negotiate with a crazy person. Threats don't work.

I think that McKay was trying to avoid using deadly force, and I think that he underestimated the danger.

RE: Firearm registry... (Below threshold)
kevino:

RE: Firearm registry
There is no firearm registry in NH: the records are not kept. Officers are supposed to treat all stops with care. The last estimate I saw was that about 1/3 of NH cars have a gun in them.


RE: "Seems like Mckay was looking for an opportunity to provoke Kenney again ..."

I don't agree. If he wanted to really hurt Kenney he could let Kenney's temper get the better of him and shoot him.


RE: "In the precedence of the tragic Michaeal Briggs death where police power has been inflated ..."

I haven't seen a change in police response, but I don't travel much in small towns.


RE: "Is there precedent for exuding vehicular force to stop Kenney immediatly?"

McKay apparently did some of that, but officers have to be very careful to avoid injury to suspects and to avoid escalating the violence. Realize that a car can be a deadly weapon. He ran Kenney off the road without too much difficulty. Sounds to me like he was trying to use reasonable force. He failed to box him in, but with a single car you can't do much in most situations.

JT - Small Towns.M... (Below threshold)

JT - Small Towns.

Mine was too small to have a school. Population of a few hundred at most. Not just white but essentially Norwegian. Being half Swede was a trial to my Mother. :-)

I went to school in the neighboring town. Graduating class of 40.

But that's not small. When I was at NDSU (in Fargo) my work-study job was in the office of the College of Education, which meant tromping over to Old Main at regular intervals to get high school transcripts of Education students. They were all Valedictorians, of course, out of class sizes that were often less than 20 and occasionally in the single digits. Public schools.

I'd only thought I'd gone to a small school.

What happens if th... (Below threshold)
J.R.:
What happens if the officer orders the suspect to turn off the car, put their hands in plain sight, etc., but the suspect proceeds to drive off again?

Do you actually believe that the officer does not have the right to affect an arrest using deadly force?

No he does not. You can not shoot someone just for fleeing, even if it is the second time. Like I made perfectly clear, if at any time the suspect would try to run the officer down, then by all means deadly force is required. But fleeing in a car, with no attempt to injure the officer, is not using a deadly force weapon.

Regardless of this scenario we are debating, it was not what happened here.

I think that McKay was trying to avoid using deadly force, and I think that he underestimated the danger.

Agreed, he most definitely underestimated the danger, but more explanations and info need to come as to what McKay did with the pepper spray and what he did after, and then contrasting that with proper police procedure. Somthing just doesn't seem right.

RE: "You can not shoot some... (Below threshold)
kevino:

RE: "You can not shoot someone just for fleeing, even if it is the second time."

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Tennessee v. Garner is directly on point:

We conclude that such force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

A high-speed chase poses a significant threat to the officer and the public. If you don't believe me, then read Scott v. Harris which upheld the right to use deadly force against a fleeing suspect (in this case, bulldogging the suspect's car):

Because the car chase respondent initiated posed a substantial and immediate risk of serious physical injury to others, Scott's attempt to terminate the chase by forcing respondent off the road was reasonable.

In fact, Harris is interesting because the SCOTUS acknowledges that high speed chases are dangerous but does not want them ended because it serves a public interest, namely, preventing escape. Many police forces consider chases so dangerous to the public that they have placed strict limits on when police can initiate a high-speed chase.

Unless you would care to argue that the officer should allow the second chase to occur, wait to see if a dangerous high-speed chase occurs, and then the officer is allowed to force the suspect's car off the road. In other words, deadly force is not allowed to prevent the chase but only terminating the chase. I don't find anything in the Law that requires that.

Of course, if the officer has guidelines that require him to give up the chase, then he can't use deadly force to prevent it. I don't think that the officer in NH had any such restrictions.

Still don't believe me? Then, like I said, call the state police and ask them. When an officer pulls out his gun in the situation described above, it is not a bluff.

I'm sorry, but you're wr... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

I'm not wrong, and if I was, there wouldn't be many police chases. You would have cops shooting at cars the moment they take off.

I understand that high speed chases can be ended with a cop ramming the car off the road and I am fine with that, I think police should be encouraged to end a pursuit like that. If want to call that deadly force, so be it, I don't consider that deadly force. I'm referring to a cop shooting at a suspect's car that is fleeing and has not attempted to run down the officer. It just doesn't happen and it shouldn't.

Regardless, the scenario is not what happened here. McKay had already run the suspect's car off the road and then didn't draw his gun as he approached the suspects, so obviously he didn't feel there was any danger to himself or the public. If Kenney had tried to flee again (w/o running at McKay), McKay would not have been justified in shooting him. Of course we'll never know and considering that Kenney had a gun (something McKay obviously did not know) had McKay shot him there probably would have been reason for him to do so.

Like I said before, with all the info presented at this time, McKay seemed to be acting on emotion and not as a trained police officer. He made bad mistakes. Of course none of them are justification for his murder and Kenney got what he deserved.

RE: "I'm not wrong, and if ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

RE: "I'm not wrong, and if I was, there wouldn't be many police chases. You would have cops shooting at cars the moment they take off."

The scenario that I described is very, very rare: it occurs when a suspect resists after a high-speed chase has ended. What you are describing is the common case: first time fleeing after a traffic stop. They are two entirely different circumstances.

RE: "Regardless, the scenario is not what happened here."

Correct, but my scenario has two specific goals:
1. I'm countering your statements that an officer cannot shoot a suspect for fleeing. (Such as: "You can not shoot someone just for fleeing, even if it is the second time.")
2. I'm pointing out that if McKay had deployed his weapon and if Kenney had started to run again, he would have had to shoot or let him go. That's not a great choice, and it's probably what he was trying to avoid.

In particular, what is the basis of your assertion that an officer cannot shoot someone for fleeing a second time?

--------

By the way, the newspapers now have a story about McKay versus Kenney from 2003:

A prosecutor's account shows a 2003 encounter between McKay and Kenney turned violent when Kenney, yelling and resisting arrest, grabbed the officer's groin and squeezed.

"Another officer witnessed McKay yell in pain and jump as a result," a statement issued yesterday by Grafton County Attorney Rick St. Hilaire said.

Kenney, a cousin of international skiing champion Bode Miller, later pleaded guilty to assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest.

"The offenses could have resulted in a sentence of prison time," St. Hilaire said in his statement. "However, Officer Bruce McKay expressed his desire that compassion be shown to the defendant. He supported a short 15-day term of incarceration in the county jail, which was accepted by the court."

Even though Kenney acted like a crazy person - even in the presence of other officers - McKay cut him a break.

Correct, but my sc... (Below threshold)
J.R.:
Correct, but my scenario has two specific goals: 1. I'm countering your statements that an officer cannot shoot a suspect for fleeing. (Such as: "You can not shoot someone just for fleeing, even if it is the second time.")

My statement was given the circumstances of this particular case. From what was written and described about the incident, it was not a high-speed chase. And without his gun drawn, if Kenney had fled again, McKay would not have been justified in taking out his gun and shooting him.

2. I'm pointing out that if McKay had deployed his weapon and if Kenney had started to run again, he would have had to shoot or let him go. That's not a great choice, and it's probably what he was trying to avoid.

Agreed, not a great choice, but that is when propoer police procedure should dictate what to do and I don't think going up and pepper-spraying and then walking away is the right thing to do in this situation.

In particular, what is the basis of your assertion that an officer cannot shoot someone for fleeing a second time?

Like I stated above, which is my reasoning for this whole debate, no gun was drawn, so if Kenney have attempte to flee again, he couldn't shoot him. I understand that a weapon drawn is not done for show. And I'm sorry, but police officers can not just shoot someone point blank for fleeing unless they feel their life is threatened. So even if they have already run the vehicle off the road and the suspect's car stops, it's not like they can just shoot the suspect for taking off again.

RE: My statement was given ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

RE: My statement was given the circumstances of this particular case. From what was written and described about the incident, it was not a high-speed chase. And without his gun drawn, if Kenney had fled again, McKay would not have been justified in taking out his gun and shooting him."

No, your statement was given after I gave my scenario (1-7). Your statement stands on it's own.

Now, in the context of this event, McKay has a reasonable expectation that a high-speed chase will occur. That is sufficient cause for him to draw his weapon. If Kenney then flees, he can shoot.

RE: "I don't think going up and pepper-spraying and then walking away is the right thing to do in this situation."

Agreed. AGAIN.

RE: "Like I stated above, which is my reasoning for this whole debate, no gun was drawn, so if Kenney have attempte to flee again, he couldn't shoot him. I understand that a weapon drawn is not done for show."

If McKay failed to draw his gun, it is impractical to believe that he can shoot Kenney. As many people have already pointed out, he certainly had the right to.

RE: "And I'm sorry, but police officers can not just shoot someone point blank for fleeing unless they feel their life is threatened."

Wrong. Totally wrong. Tennessee v. Garner:

We conclude that such force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

Do you see the words "or others" at the end? Do you understand what that means? Police officers have a duty to protect the public, not just themselves.

Also, please note that the threat is not to "life" it is a threat of "death or serious physical injury". That is a much lower standard.

This is boring: you just repeat these empty statements without any rational basis. Read the law. Look at available cases. Call the State Police, a criminal lawyer, or the State Attorney General's Office.

No, your statement... (Below threshold)
J.R.:
No, your statement was given after I gave my scenario (1-7). Your statement stands on it's own
.

I never stopped applying the circumstances of this particular case. Sorry if I didn't state it as such. I have also explained how I felt about the scenarios you have stated and my feelings about such. My statements do stand on their own, I'm not trying to backpedal here.

Now, in the context of this event, McKay has a reasonable expectation that a high-speed chase will occur. That is sufficient cause for him to draw his weapon. If Kenney then flees, he can shoot.

Unless McKay's life was threatened then you are flat out wrong here.

Wrong. Totally wrong. Tennessee v. Garner:

In this case, the officer had his gun drawn and was telling the suspect to stop. In this case here, nothing of the sort is mentioned. I'm sure more facts will come out and clear things up, but without his gun drawn and a clear intent that he will shoot if the suspect does not follow his commands, McKay could not have just pulled out his gun and shot Kenney.

Also, please note that the threat is not to "life" it is a threat of "death or serious physical injury". That is a much lower standard.

I understand that, and my "life threatened" comment should be understood as such.

This is boring:

Not on is telling you to continue. The funny part is that we probably agree on most of this discussion and we're talking past each other.

you just repeat these empty statements without any rational basis.

Oh christ, give me a break. I'm no bleeding heart troll trying to get a rise out of you. I think you're wrong and stand by my comments.

I think it is a tragedy that McKay is dead and I'm happy Kenney was killed afterward. If McKay had drawn his weapon and shot and killed Kenney as he tried to hit him with his car I would be hailing McKay as a hero. I think he acted wrong and against procedure here with deadly consequences, but hey we can continue your little scenario debate about deadly force all you want.

Oh, and by the way, in case... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Oh, and by the way, in case there is any doubt I looked up the NH RSA Section 627:5 "Physical Force in Law Enforcement". In addition to the usual allowances for deadly force to prevent escape, there is this little jewel in paragraph VIII

Deadly force shall be deemed reasonably necessary under this section whenever the arresting law enforcement officer reasonably believes that the arrest is lawful and there is apparently no other possible means of effecting the arrest.

Works for me.

J.R.I've repeatedl... (Below threshold)
kevino:

J.R.

I've repeatedly pointed out that McKay had the right to deploy his gun. That's not at issue. I've stated why that option may not have been great option.

The issue that I have with you is that you continue to make these blanket statements without any rational basis. Now your trying to backpedal with, "Oh, but my statement is really this specific case," knowing it doesn't apply.

Your blanket statements on deadly force are just plain wrong. You got caught. I've given the correct high-court rulings. All you do is repeat yourself.

What is it with you and the... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

What is it with you and these "gotcha" statements?

Are you that small a man to think that somehow you caught me. Throughout this discussion I have been referring to the particulars of this case and your scenarios, the differences between the two, and what should have or could have happened in this case.

I'm sure we agree on these things you jack-ass, but now you're just trying to claim you win and I got caught. Get over yourself already. I know the rulings you spoke of, and I understand what you are talking about, there is no need for me backpedal. You can throw all the rulings and regs you want at me, I agree with them. All I am saying is that a cop just can't pull his gun and shoot a suspect in a fleeing vehicle! There has to be more to it than that, and in this situation with what we know, he wouldn't have been justified to shoot him.

Now let's look at what you just said:

I've repeatedly pointed out that McKay had the right to deploy his gun.

No argument from me.

I've stated why that option may not have been great option.

That's your opinion, and it sort of runs counter to what should have happened based on all your ramblings about deadly force. And of course this is what I have issue about with you. With all your rants and quips about not being able to negotiate with crazy people, it is almost unbelievable that he would not draw his weapon.

And of course, he then pepper-sprayed him, why? Why would it be so necessary to run him off the road for resisting a speeding ticket and registration violations, but then not have a gun drawn as he approached the vehicle? I have always been trying to steer this conversation about what happened in this case.

Your blanket statements on deadly force are just plain wrong.

You're the one giving general scenarios, I have tried to detail those into one where (in conjunction with the specifics of this case) McKay would not have been justified in shooting Kenney.

I am trying to tell you that I agree with all the scenarios you have written about. I just think you're not thoroughly reading my responses in an effort to, in your world, trap me.

You got caught

Fine, whatever makes you feel good about yourself.

Look, J.R., you disagreed w... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Look, J.R., you disagreed with my position on the law in #563605. You did it again in #564208. You even shifted from the general case to the specific with the sentence "Regardless of this scenario we are debating, it was not what happened here." You did it again with #564306 when you said, "Regardless, the scenario is not what happened here."

Clearly you understood that these are two separate discussions.

RE: "With all your rants and quips about not being able to negotiate with crazy people, it is almost unbelievable that he would not draw his weapon. And of course, he then pepper-sprayed him, why?"

He made a choice to use pepper spray instead of his gun. I have repeatedly stated why. Go back and read it, if you don't understand, ask.

Your statements regarding t... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Your statements regarding this case completely conflict with your scenarios in general about deadly force.

Again, I think we agree on the use of deadly force, but for some reason you still choose to nitpick in some vain attempt to declare yourself a winner of an online debate. Grow up.

I guess I should have said, regardless of the scenario you are bringing up, it's not what happened here.

As you can clearly see I am standing by what I wrote and do not take anything back. You think Kenney was a threat to the public and the officer after McKay ran him off the road, I don't, at least not with the details that I have read. You think McKay would have been justified if Kenney had attempted to flee once again (without attempting to run down McKay) to draw his weapon and shoot him, I disagree. That is the crux of are argument as I see it. Your constant attempts to box me into some faux corner are ridiculous.

Let me just ask you this: What would you have done in this situation after you have run Kenney's car off the road, draw your weapon or pepper-spray and walk away?

There has'nt been a report ... (Below threshold)
Skiracer:

There has'nt been a report out that there was a high speed chase. Only that Kenny drove a half mile or so down the road before the officer got him over for the second time. Wait for the facts boys!

J.R.RE: "You think... (Below threshold)
kevino:

J.R.

RE: "You think Kenney was a threat to the public and the officer after McKay ran him off the road, I don't, at least not with the details that I have read."

You're close. I think he's a threat if he tries to escape again, and I think that the law allows McKay to use deadly force to prevent escape.


RE: "You think McKay would have been justified if Kenney had attempted to flee once again (without attempting to run down McKay) to draw his weapon and shoot him, I disagree."

You disagree? Based on what? In particular, if Kenney tries to drive off the second time how is the officer going to affect an arrest? If you can't, then reread the NH RSA why it doesn't apply.


RE: "What would you do?"

Obviously it is immpossible to know without being there. However, based on the news reports, if I had the badge, I would draw my weapon. The problem is that I'm not McKay. I don't have history with this suspect. I don't feel sorry for him, and I don't worry about how it looks if I have to shoot him. The situation may not end well - probably won't end well. If it doesn't, I'm probably going to get sued.

As a former AAG who has sue... (Below threshold)

As a former AAG who has sued and represented police officers, the entire unedited video from that night must be produced, and the Concord Monitor (from the capital city) concurs:

http://christopher-king.blogspot.com/2007/05/kingcast-reveals-letter-to-nh-ag-kelly.html

I've been hearing a lot of things from local people that verify that there was no high-speed chase and that Mr. Kenney pulled over slowly and waited, then McKay walked up and maced Mr. Kenney and Mr. MacCauly without a word, the same way that Floyd then shot Mr. Kenney.

Consider this: If Liko Kenney had it in mind to shoot and kill officer McKay, he would have done it before McKay had a chance to mace him, duh.

I was told by Jaffrey, NH Police Chief Martin Dunn during his sworn deposition that police reports in NH are not sworn, so that makes them nothing more than hearsay.

Peace.

Oh, and have you read the d... (Below threshold)

Oh, and have you read the dossier on that wonderful marine?

Let me help you:

http://christopher-king.blogspot.com/2007/05/kingcast-stands-aghast-as-he-reads.html

**********

According to the Concord Monitor, this is the background of the guy who drew a pass from NH AG Kelly Ayotte:

"The police charged Floyd with criminal threatening. It was during this incident that Floyd told the police how he'd kill them if he chose to - by shooting them in the head and giving them a "third eye."

Upon further checking, the police learned that Floyd's 1991 drug arrest in Georgia was a felony level offense. That, the state police concluded, meant Floyd could not legally own guns in New Hampshire. In June 1997, the state police added a second charge against Floyd: being a felon in possession of firearms.

During that arrest, Floyd attempted to knee Trooper Scot Bryan in the groin, according to court records, and was charged with attempted assault of a police officer.

He pleaded guilty to the attempted assault and received a suspended prison sentence in 1998. The police dismissed the criminal threatening charge, but it was not clear why from court records...." [KingCast says this guy clearly knows somebody or something, and if what Caleb MacCauley says as Liko Kenney's passenger is true about not saying a single word to Liko or Caleb, and peppering the ground near Caleb with gunfire, his family should sue the living daylights out of Floyd and the police for covering it up]

.....Nice Guy, a real winner.... really respectful of the police.

This event is so fucked.</p... (Below threshold)
grealla:

This event is so fucked.

I was just trying to check up on this shooting that I heard about very briefly on the news because after the initial mention of this event, it inexplicably disappeared from media coverage up here in the area. Understanding the nature of the shooting-cop pepper sprays kid, kid shoots cop, bystander ex-marine shoots kid with cop's gun!!!-WAY more media coverage was warranted which, to me, indicates some sort of let's-keep-the-public-in-the-dark attitude. The reason must be that this situation has the potential to have many ramifications.

First off, what in HOLY HELL is the AG doing pardoning this crazed ex-marine who took the law into his own hand?? He doesn't know the situation that took place, for all he knew the kid could have been justified in shooting the cop. You can't just come into that situation and demand that the kid drop his gun or you, as a simple private citizen, are going to take what should be the duty of a state's capital punishment division into your own hands and shoot to kill.
THIS IS INSANE and the pardon of this psycho is probably a big reason why the details of this story are hard-pressed to find in mainstream news coverage.

Just wanted to say that my opinion is that 'kevino' is a conditioned cop lover who doesn't like to think for himself and lets America decide what to think for him. COPS ARE NOT GOOD PEOPLE. They are, for the large part, jokes. Barely educated, brainwashed and given license to be on one hell of a power trip. I don't know where this society stands when I can honestly say I am more intelligent/knowledgeable/level-headed than 95% of the cops I come into contact with. These are the people who are supposed to be making very intricate moral judgments about what people do? NO. They are conditioned lackeys of the state who do the fed. govt's bidding at the lowest levels and really don't PROTECT or SERVE anybody. They are designed to keep us in CHECK. Designed to keep track of us so the STATUS QUO can breathe on uninterrupted.
Think about it......

Not to say the cop DESERVED it, but he certainly HELPED CAUSE HIS OWN DEATH. You don't just pepper spray someone gratuitously, especially when there is no cause to do so and you have a history with the subject. He thought he could get away with a pepper-laced POT SHOT at the kid and since he has the authority from the state, the kid would be powerless to do anything about it. Well guess what? That mentality that cops are instilled with that tells them they are untouchable since they are part of the law backfired on this one....BIGTIME.

In my book:
The cop, WHAT AN IDIOT
The kid, TRAGICALLY OFF BALANCE AND ANGRY BUT most probably had a bigger heart
the marine, SHOULD GET 25-LIFE




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