I love how the right wing can get so many miles from trashing everything Hollywood stands for. But when they need someone to come to the rescue of their pathetic field of candidates, they always look to lightweight B-list actors like Reagen, Sonny Bono, Gopher from the Love Boat, and now Thompson.

How sad is that when Thompson is seen as the savior of the GOP. What did he do when he was in the Senate again? Nothing worth noting...

The Box of Montechristos" by Edgar Allen D'OH!!!

Of course, the whole point of Michael Moore taking the 9/11 workers to Cuba, was to show that even Cuba's health system was better for the average working man than ours.

That Castro is an oppressive dictator is not in doubt; rather, that Castro can be an oppressive dictator with doctors fleeing his regime, and still have a better health system than ours, makes our situation all the more shameful.

Nice attempt to change the subject on Thompson's part, tho.

average wizbang poster:
What exactly does Hollywood stand for?

Thompson was brilliant. He went right to the point. Nicolas Guillen made a documentary that made fun of the lying Communist dictator, Fidel Castro. Castro sent Guillen to a mental hospital for years of electroshock torture.

Juxtapose that end result with what happened when Moore made fun of Bush -- absolutely nothing (except getting embraced by the Democratic party).

How many miles can the left get from claiming that Bush is taking away all our rights and creating a police state? The left, including "average wizbang poster" don't know what a police state is. On the contrary, they seem to defend it at every opportunity. This is also along the lines of what Hollywood stands for.

How in the world is feces and maggots on the floor and all over the hospital better than our hospitals? i ask for you to explain libs?

No one in this country is denied health care. You can say people don't have insurance and you'd be right, but i am also right when i say that nobody is denied health care. even the illegals get it.

LOL!

Yeah, it is sort of funny that the right wing can repudiate Hollywood and then go for actors like Reagan or Arnold and whomever else.

What is also funny is how this has nothing to do with the substance of this particular issue. Who Moore is or who Thompson is has nothing to do with what either man has said about Castro. And actor or not, Thompson is talking about something that puts the left into instant diversionary mode... better to talk about actors than the fact that Castro IS the darling of people like Moore who has made an absolute fortune pandering to the left.

Wacky left, true enough.

So while we wait for the non-wacky left to tell Moore to quit pissing on reason, don't look! Don't look at the obvious lies about what Castro has done to Cuba or the failure of socialized medicine there or, heaven forfend, the fact that a documentary film maker in Cuba gets institutionalized in that "health" system and "treated" for mental illness while HERE in Bushitler's fascist monarchy Moore faces NO threat to himself.

But look!!!

Actors!!!

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/004070.php

go here for real pics of real cuban hospitals!

"and still have a better health system than ours, makes our situation all the more shameful."

Jim - this is so absurd, I can't even think of a response beyond laughter. Do you know any Cubans? Have you talked with anyone who has left Cuba about their health care?

This is like all those scholars who trumpet the Canadian health care system. Talk to a Canadian who has been waiting for six months just to see a doctor about a pain, and they will tell you their health care sucks.
Next time you get sick, fly down and let Fidel take care of you!

wow.

Love it! Love it! Loveeeeee it! A brilliant stroke of communication genius.

If Fred Thompson could get elected as President, he'd been known as The Next Great Communicator.

Oh sure, Jim.

But how is Cuba's health system better for the *Cuban* "average working man"?

Because I'm sure that Moore just chose, like, an *average* hospital... probably randomly just went where ever he wanted to go and chose one randomly just like, you know, Cuban average working men can do.

And pointing out that the Cuban average film documentary man was given over to the Cuban health care system is NOT changing the subject.

I guess you could say that Cuba has a better health care system if you need electro-shock treatments. Recall that Castro had to be treated by Spanish doctors for his recent ailments.

Whatever Hollywood is standing for, I ain't buying.
socialism/communism- check
narcissism- check
hedonism- check
globalism- check
illegal immigration- check

Fred Thompson is NOT hollywood.

Fred Thompson for President!

/ although I would hate to see how politics and diplomacy forced him to tone it down.

Thompson smoking a stoggy is enough for me to vote for him...a MAN willing to take on the PC police. Now that's balls!

And a puff of fragrent manduro to yah...

I love Fred Thompson!!!!!

That Castro is an oppressive dictator is not in doubt; rather, that Castro can be an oppressive dictator with doctors fleeing his regime, and still have a better health system than ours, makes our situation all the more shameful.
-------------------------------------------------
Jim is a perfect example of how liberals would stoop to make excuse for a known liar like Michael Moore and for a regime like Castro. Just look at the pictures here. Jim thinks that this is better for the average people here. Wow, liberals are really immune to reality

http://publiuspundit.com/2007/04/michael_moore_a_big_fat_sicko.php

Michael Moore should check into a mental institution...

Zinger.

NIce slapdown to Tubby trying to get free publicity for his latest craziness.

Didn't I read somewhere that Castro's doctor is from Spain? Whassup with that? Mickey, you have some 'splainin' to do...

By 'Tubby', do you mean Fred Thompson?

How in the world is feces and maggots on the floor and all over the hospital better than our hospitals?

You mean, like Walter Reed, for instance?

Were these 9/11 workers well treated by the US healthcare system? No.

Did they get treatment in Cuba? Yes.

Let me ask you:
Is it a good sign for the US health system, that these workers were better treated in Cuba? Yes or no?

Gee, now why wouldn't jp2 like Fred's zinger? Hmm, I can't imagine why that would ever be....

Weak sauce.

First, I'd just like to take this moment to point out that I am not now, nor have I ever, denied that Fidel Castro is a fascist dictator who is running an oppressive regime.

So please take that off your list of straw man arguments to throw at me.

Second, Michael Moore is probably more hated by conservatives and Republicans than any other figure, surpassing Jane Fonda or even Bill Clinton. So, if Michael Moore is such an obvious liar, I'd think Fred Thompson would be psyched for the opportunity to crush him.

Instead Fred Thompson changes the subject from US Health care to "Castro's a dictator" - a topic not even in dispute.

This is not honest debating. Sorry.

Yet Castro isn't using a doctor from Cuba. All the good ones must have escaped.

This is not honest debating. Sorry.

Hey, at least you apologized for being dishonest.

jim: "Instead Fred Thompson changes the subject from US Health care to "Castro's a dictator" - a topic not even in dispute."

Wow...what a MORON!! The Subject was the CUBAN Health Care System, and Moore's fawning over it. NOT the US Health Care system.

Geez. Do your knuckles drag right along the ground when you walk? CAN you walk?

What a pathetic, un-presidential response from Thompson. Thinking conservatives must be embarrassed to realize that this asshat was the great last hope for the Republicans in the 08 elections.

I say "was" the great last hope because this video shows he hasn't a prayer. I have never seen a more childish effort from a candidate.

Wow, I'm absolutely amazed - I thought Thompson was a contender...

Jim you arent even intellectually honest and are taking Fred's video comments out of context. Lets look at the order of this debate shall we. Thompson addresses the Cuban healthcare system in a short 4 paragraphs. Moore then writes a letter that opens with this little gem:

"Given that it has been publicly reported in The Weekly Standard, a leading neo-conservative publication, that you support Fidel Castro and the Cuban regime by being a purveyor of fine Cuban exports despite the trade embargo..."

What does that have to do with the healthcare debate? Nothing. Just Moore trying to twist a non-existant dagger.

Second, not a single one of the 5 points that Moore wants to debate has anything to do with health care. Its all about trying to slam a conservative.

Third, Thompson's response was so smart that the 3 of you who rushed to respond missed the whole point and had to have it spelled out for you.

No sire it was Moore who took this debate off of the healthcare system. You would see that if you were honest, but you arent.

Hey, at least you apologized for being dishonest.

No, John - that was actually me, Jim speaking, not Fred Thompson.

I'd say "sorry for the confusion", but that might lead to another incorrect post on your part.

That Castro is an oppressive dictator is not in doubt; rather, that Castro can be an oppressive dictator with doctors fleeing his regime, and still have a better health system than ours, makes our situation all the more shameful.

Nice attempt to change the subject on Thompson's part, tho.
Posted by: jim at May 15, 2007 05:01 PM

The ignorance of you and the entire left when it comes to healthcare is really breathtaking. I don't know whether or not you like to swallow such pathetic propaganda from Tubby or you really believe Cuba has us beat on healthcare. As someone who works in the U.S. healthcare system, I would take great offense at some knob like Michael Moore telling me how great Cuba is. Wonder where he goes when he's sick. All the way to Cuba?

Thinking conservatives must be embarrassed to realize that this asshat was the great last hope for the Republicans in the 08 elections.

Lee, considering the absolute trash coming from your side of the aisle, I wouldn't talk sally. Your party is being overrun by "truthers" and the more and more they come out, the more your party will go into the ashbin.

Wow...what a MORON!! The Subject was the CUBAN Health Care System, and Moore's fawning over it. NOT the US Health Care system.

Justrand, sigh - do you really think Michael Moore's documentary is about the Cuban health care system? Yes or no?

See, I'm of the opinion that Moore's documentary is about the US health care system. I say this, because that's what it's about according to everyone. Go read Variety if you don't believe me.

"Sicko...a critical look at the U.S. health care system."

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117964520.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

Now, in that documentary, there is apparently a segment where Moore took some American heroes who worked at the 9/11 site to Cuba, because they weren't getting treatment in the US.

He did this to *compare* the two healthcare systems. Therefore the subject is the US healthcare system vs. the Cuban healthcare system.

You understand that, right? If you don't, then let me know and I'll try to explain it more clearly to you.

Are you off your rocker, jim? Pointing out Castro's oppressively violent dictarship is PRECISELY the damn point: How can anyone trust what any dictator ever says or shows you (in this case, "health care facilities") when it comes honestly presenting the true conditions in his country? By his very nature dictators are deceitful and deceptive people who, internally, oppress people while simeltaneously presenting a rosy picture to the world, extrenally.

What's not honest debate is not being allowed to call into question Castro's character and credibility as a dictator and his ability--or lack thereof--to tell the truth or present the true nature on ANY subject or ANY situation.

The ignorance of you and the entire left when it comes to healthcare is really breathtaking.

The willful ignorance of you and the entire right when it comes to healthcare is really breathtaking.

"Wooooo!!!! Be scared!!! SOCIALISM Wooo!!!! European nations BAD! Skyrocketing insurance costs, uninsured families, largest infant mortality rates in the first world, 48 US citizens million without health is GOOD!!!"

"It's broke, don't fix it!"

I don't know whether or not you like to swallow such pathetic propaganda from Tubby or you really believe Cuba has us beat on healthcare.

Once again, by 'Tubby', do you mean Fred Thompson?

As someone who works in the U.S. healthcare system, I would take great offense at some knob like Michael Moore telling me how great Cuba is.

It's a shame that the truth can hurt.

But if you're poor and you have no health insurance and you need to go the hospital what happens? Either a) you lie and give a fake name, or b) you're screwed.

If you work in the healthcare system at all, then you know that that is a reality.

Don't you think we can do better? Honestly?

Wonder where he goes when he's sick. All the way to Cuba?

Of course MOORE can afford the best in US healthcare. That's not the point.

The point is the healthcare that those who AREN'T wealthy can afford. Which is, not much if any at all.

I'll give you me as an example. Last year I had no health insurance. I was a contractor, going from one quick gig to another; couldn't afford it. Fought off a cold. Went to a couple of doctors, no solution. Finally wound up in a hospital due to undiagnosed infection and allergic reaction to medication, compounded by fever and dehydration.

I stayed in the hospital for 3 days. No operations, just medication, rehydrating drip and some doctor examinations.

The cost?

*****$11,000****. Plus expenses. I s--t you not.

WTF.

Oh, snap!

The best part is that this stunt of Castro's is based on a 220 year old precedent that suckered dumbasses back in the day. Does any lefty even understand the phrase "Potemkin village"?

Stalin thought not and he was right, per Wikipedia: "Potemkin village" has also frequently been used to describe the attempts of the Soviet government to fool foreign visitors. The government would take such visitors, who were often already sympathetic to socialism or communism, to select villages, factories, schools, stores, or neighborhoods and present them as if they were typical, rather than exceptional."

Nothing new under the sun, especially leftoid dishonesty.

Just look at the picture of the facilities in Havana here for the good health care system in Cuba for average people.

http://publiuspundit.com/2007/04/michael_moore_a_big_fat_sicko.php

Lee:Fred's none of those.

'Candidate"? "Un-presidential"? Heck, he's not even use a "contender" or "hopeful". Right now and not to get all semnatical on you, he's just Fred Thompson, Senator. So your bombast is a bit off.

And what's the matter with answering a nut back who's challenged you to a debate? You liberals ALWAYS whine, kavetch and moan about how Repubs never answer their critics, and now when one does, you get all uppity, huffy and indignant. If anything it shows that Fred is listening (even to nut jobs) and can be a human being with a good sense of humor--something that libs have long demonzied Republicans as not being or possessing.

Jim you arent even intellectually honest and are taking Fred's video comments out of context.

Nope, fully in context, sorry.

Thompson addresses the Cuban healthcare system ...Moore then writes:

"Given that it has been publicly reported in The Weekly Standard, a leading neo-conservative publication, that you support Fidel Castro and the Cuban regime by being a purveyor of fine Cuban exports despite the trade embargo..."

What does that have to do with the healthcare debate? Nothing. Just Moore trying to twist a non-existant dagger.

Nope. Wrong again. I suggest you look at the context.

Thompson was berating Michael Moore for giving Castro money. Moore points out Thompson's hypocrisy - Thompson just loves to give Castro money for those fine cigars.

Incidentally, doesn't Thompson giving Castro money bother you? Why or why not?

Second, not a single one of the 5 points that Moore wants to debate has anything to do with health care. Its all about trying to slam a conservative.

Not a single one? Are we reading the same article, linked above at the Drudge Report?

Point 1- Thompson's work as a lobbyist for health insurance -isn't that health care? Yes or no?

Point 2- Thompsons campaign contributions from the insurance industry -isn't that health care? Yes or no?

Point 3- thompson's attempt to cut funds for AIDS research - isn't that health care also?

Point 4- Thompson's relationship Frist, head of the HCA? Isn't that referring to health care? Wouldn't you say?

I honestly don't get the Arthur Branch ref. in Moore's 5th point, but whatever. You said not a single one, and I've given you **four** examples.

Note that we are not discussing the strength of Moore's examples - just whether or not they refer to health care. Since you accused me of being intellectually dishonest, because you claimed not one of Moore's points referred to health care.

So - you either made these mistakes in error, or you are not being intellectually honest.

If I am wrong, prove me wrong; otherwise, please have the integrity to admit you are wrong.

Jim, I hate to be callous, but you're not a contractor, your a dronish leech. You got sick because you screwed up. You are poor and/or without insurance because you screwed up or chose that alternative. You took the risk, now you eat the consequences.

You want me to pay your $11,000.00 bill. Why should I? Did you actually pay it? Doubt it. Don't you think you used up $11k worth of space, stuff and services?

The left firmly believes in Darwin - let's see you prove it. Survive on your own - or not. Time we saw a little evolution in action here, the gene pool has turds floating in it.

Please run Fred!
Can you imagine Rudy doing this kind of thing?
I've been a supporter of Huckabee's, but he just hasn't caught fire. Fred is the only candidate who can run and win as a strong conservative.
He'd eat Hillary and Obama for lunch. Edwards would run away from just the sight of him.

Jim is either clueless or simply trying to spin for a known liar like Michael Moore. Moore is trying to go to Cuba to propagandize for a communist dictator (who gets the Spanish treatment for himself)! THis is so despicable. But Jim couldn't see it. Moore again used people to do his propaganda for whom?

He could have taken them to Canada or somewhere to get treatment.

And then, Love America Immigrant, maybe you should read a couple of articles on Walter Reed:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR2007021701172.html

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/03/online_reedarchive_070302/

Yes, Thompson's clip was a zinger to Moore, and the cause of guffaws from Republicans nationwide. But I have to agree, Thompson comes off as wholly un-presidential here. He was churlish, insulting, childish, and yes, you have to admit that he changed the subject. If you're looking for a president of Republicania, and you're one of those who keeps score of partisan zingers and gotchas, then Thompson might be your man. But for those looking for a president of all Americans, then Thompson just took himself out of the running.

Plus, I can't imagine whose bright idea it was to give Moore such legitimacy by having Thompson make this video, in which he states "I don't have time for you" while clearly putting a large amount of time and effort into his method of delivering that message (and after having written a separate op-ed piece, as well).

I honestly don't get the Arthur Branch ref. in Moore's 5th point,

Arthur Branch is the DA of NYC, the character that Thompson plays on Law & Order.

Brilliant.

Moore was hoping to use Thompson to promote his movie. But Thompson successfully used Moore to promote his campaign.

Lee Ward:

What a pathetic, un-presidential response from Thompson. Thinking conservatives must be embarrassed to realize that this asshat was the great last hope for the Republicans in the 08 elections.

Not as embarrassed as we were watching so many dems fell down in adoration as Moore and Carter were sitting in the balcony during the last dem convention.

It was pathetic. Really.

Jim, I hate to be callous, but you're not a contractor, your a dronish leech.

Go Cheney yourself.

You got sick because you screwed up. You are poor and/or without insurance because you screwed up or chose that alternative. You took the risk, now you eat the consequences.

You want me to pay your $11,000.00 bill. Why should I?

Dude, get over yourself. I have absolutely no interest in your money. I wouldn't take your money if you paid me. As far as I'm concerned you can shove it up your ass, one dollar at a time.

All I ask is, some time when you have absolutely busted your ass in every single way possible, and you **still** got knocked down, and then you get a real boulder landed on top of you, that you remember what you just said to me.

I guarantee you will be seeing things from another perspective. Funny how that is.

At that point, if I see it, I'll be my good self and be sympathetic. Just like being hassled by the cops or having someone in your family go crazy, it can be hard to believe what it's like until it really happens to you.

Did you actually pay it? Doubt it. Don't you think you used up $11k worth of space, stuff and services?

While this doesn't deserve any comment, I'll still give you some.

$11,000 is an all-expenses paid weeks vacation in a 5-star hotel in France, AND all the treatment I received, privately in that hotel.

Guess what? That might mean I was overcharged.

Think about it. Try adding facts and figures some time.

I paid my bills and dealt with it. That debt is gone now. Not that it's any of your business. Just wanted to let you know that you're absolutely wrong. Hopefully that might lead you to think.

The left firmly believes in Darwin - let's see you prove it. Survive on your own - or not. Time we saw a little evolution in action here, the gene pool has turds floating in it.

That means you don't believe in corporate welfare either, right? Doesn't all that wasted taxpayer money bother you?

Here's the thing about evolution - humanity has group bonding because groups that hold together, survive better than individuals do.

That means that societies which keep more members of their society healthy in all ways, have a better chance of thriving in prosperity.

Think about it.

I stayed in the hospital for 3 days. No operations, just medication, rehydrating drip and some doctor examinations.

The cost?

*****$11,000****. Plus expenses. I s--t you not.

Jim,

It appears you were not denied medical care because of your lack of insurance. You seem to be alive to complain about it, so I guess the care was adequate. The $11,000 cost, is about the same whether you pay for it, you and your insurance company pays for it, or the govt (taxpayers) pays for it. It's not the health community or governments fault that you were not insured at the time. You don't have to have insurance if you choose not to.

In the Southwest the "failed U.S. health system," is being destroyed by people without insurance, that don't pay the subsequent bills. Federal law prohibits ANYONE from being turned away from emergency medical services, regardless of insurance status, ability to pay etc. Many hospitals have closed emergency rooms because of non-payment of these medical bills.

The relatively high cost of medical care is driven by many factors. High cost of operations for hospitals (all that high tech costs money); cost of insurance (malpractice insurance is expensive); cost of medical education for all med proffessionals; costs of medications; cost of complying with government mandates, etc.

Socilaizing medical services in this country will drive the ultimate cost up and the cost and availibilty down.

Any idiot who thinks the Cuban health care system is better than ours really is an idiot, and is more than welcome to head to cuba to see how long the wait is for a lobotomy.

S health care is the best there is, shame is one actually needs to pay for what they get. Yup, no free ride, no welfare, no handouts for the best service there is.

Ask Lance Armstrong if he'd be alive today if he lived in Havana.

How much of that $11,000 was for malpractice and other insurance?

I've heard percentages up to 50% of the final cost but I don't have any idea if that is accurate.

Socilaizing medical services in this country will drive the ultimate cost up and the cost and availibilty down.

Should read: ...and the quality and availability down.

Btw, viewed the Fred Thompson video. Fantastic smackdown of an ignorant fat-man. My only regret is it was to short.

If Thompson, flatulating about Cuban health care w/ no corroborating evidence, is an example of "potency," a misting of Beano in the auditorium before any debate will just leave his ass-cheeks flapping w/ no sound.

Yo Jimmy,

You couldn't afford insurance or you didn't want to pay the premiums? Pay me now or pay me later. I've always paid for insurance, even when I was earning 5 bucks an hour. Here you piss and moan about it like it's America's fault you got sick and YOU chose not to get coverage. I sacrificed to keep my coverage while self employed. Surely you could have gone without pay TV, smokes, restaurants, or something each month for coverage, but you CHOSE not to. Now you want ME and everyone one else to pay for your medical expenses. I'm already doing that through higher taxes. I pay a special property tax just for the hospital district so illegal aliens can drop in the emergency room for colds and what not and then walk out without paying a dime. Compliments of the producers.

Go ahead and make whatever statements you want, but the US has the BEST health care system in the world, even for illegal immigrants.

Go move to Europe or Canada for their "Free Health Care". You'll love how much of your paycheck is taken each time to take care of the "Free Health Care".

Your actions and statements are pathetic and irresponsible. Don't worry, the Dems nanny state will take care of you and wipe your ass too, but they'll only use one square of TP.

How much of that $11,000 was for malpractice and other insurance?

Yeah, you can thank Silky Pony John Edwards for run away malpractice insurance as he sued hospitals using junk science while pulling on the heart strings of jurors with his southern drawl. He really enjoys his America he's created.

The $11,000 cost, is about the same whether you pay for it, you and your insurance company pays for it, or the govt (taxpayers) pays for it.

Sure - everyone's overcharged equally. Just so happens that you have to be rich in order to afford the healthcare you need to live. What's unfair about that?

You don't have to have insurance if you choose not to.

Sure - and another problem with our system is that if you *do* have health insurance, the insurer might deny you care. In many cases, causing patient's worsening or death.

In the Southwest the "failed U.S. health system," is being destroyed by people without insurance, that don't pay the subsequent bills...Many hospitals have closed emergency rooms because of non-payment of these medical bills.

Are you saying it would be better if the poor just died quietly?

Sure, many hospitals have closed. But people still get sick. Therefore, that would lead me to conclude that something should be done to fix this system.

The relatively high cost of medical care is driven by many factors. High cost of operations for hospitals (all that high tech costs money); cost of insurance (malpractice insurance is expensive); cost of medical education for all med proffessionals; costs of medications; cost of complying with government mandates, etc.

Sure. And one of things we can do something about, is the cost of health insurance - both in malpractice on the doctor's side, and on the patient side.

That's because the health insurance industry has too much leeway with the amounts it charges. Malpractice insurance is one great example. The rates haven't climbed due to malpractice awards - that's stayed at the same rate, rising about 1.6 % a year. The costs have skyrocketed up to 20% a year (!!), because insurance companies want more money and realize people will pay it to stay Doctors or stay alive.

Don't believe me, read the facts.

Malpractice insurance:
http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/06/01/rising_doctors_premiums_not_due_to_lawsuit_awards/

Health insurance:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55301-2004Sep27.html

Socilaizing medical services in this country will drive the ultimate cost up and the cost and availibilty down.

But if it drove costs down and results in more availability, you'd be for it, right?

What if people just paid the money they're paying insurance companies into a big pool? What if we just cut out the ridiculous, overcharging middle man?

I'm just telling you, what we have doesn't work, and we need to do something about it. It simply is not good enough.

In regard to quality and accessibility of medical surgery in this country, NBC had a report tonight as to the growing phenomenon of Americans going to Belgium, India etc for surgical procedures at a fraction of the US cost. Indeed, some insurance companies are even paying for this treatment.

You Wizfools of average means, approaching your "golden years," had better start applying for your passports, if you don't already have one.

So much for the vaunted superiority of US health care.

...Here you piss and moan about it like it's America's fault you got sick and YOU chose not to get coverage.

Blah blah blah.

Let me know when you're actually referring to something I said, and not some voice in your head.

....Now you want ME and everyone one else to pay for your medical expenses.

Voices in your head again. I said nothing like that. Does that voice look like a straw man?

Go ahead and make whatever statements you want, but the US has the BEST health care system in the world, even for illegal immigrants.

Since no facts or arguments will convince you, then let's not waste any more time discussing this. Have a nice nap. Hope you don't get sick until after we've fixed the health care system.

Love the moonbats who think Cuba has a wonderful healthvcare system. Heres a tip to them urge the Dhimmiecrat candidate to pledge that when universal healthcare is mandated by the new dhimmiecrta politboro for the masses that it will be modelled on Cuba's.

Please write them now and make them swear this is the basis of their campaign platform.

Thompson shows what spine is, something the current GOP and dhimmiecrats lack.

Love the moonbats who think Cuba has a wonderful healthvcare system. Heres a tip to them urge the Dhimmiecrat candidate to pledge that when universal healthcare is mandated by the new dhimmiecrta politboro for the masses that it will be modelled on Cuba's.

Please write them now and make them swear this is the basis of their campaign platform.

Thompson shows what spine is, something the current GOP and dhimmiecrats lack.

Love the moonbats who think Cuba has a wonderful healthvcare system. Heres a tip to them urge the Dhimmiecrat candidate to pledge that when universal healthcare is mandated by the new dhimmiecrta politboro for the masses that it will be modelled on Cuba's.

Please write them now and make them swear this is the basis of their campaign platform.

Thompson shows what spine is, something the current GOP and dhimmiecrats lack.

Life expectancy, USA: 78 years
Life expectancy, Cuba: 77 years

Not too bad for a Third World nation, putting Cuba in about the top 20 percent of nations with regards to life expectancy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

I stayed in the hospital for 3 days. No operations, just medication, rehydrating drip and some doctor examinations.

The cost?

*****$11,000****. Plus expenses. I s--t you not.

WTF.
Posted by: jim at May 15, 2007 06:22 PM

What, you want sympathy? It's expense to house little ingrates like you I reckon...considering I don't know where you went, what type of hospital, what type of insurance you have, what your deductible is...were you turned away?

Jim,

I notice you keep comparing conditions at Walter Reed with those in Cuba. That's pretty stupid because it proves that government hospitals are inferior to those in the private sector. However you are the one claiming that socialized medicine is the answer to the problem.

I wished you had died instead of wasting $11,000 worth of resources that could have been spent on an illegal alien.

Make a good point about Walter Reed and government run health care, vaildog, and then blow it by being an *ss.

Lee, Fred Thompson doesn't have to respond to Moore. He already proved Moore is full of crap when he addressed the situation in the first place. Why should he waste his time and breath on a debate? Intelligent people know Moore is a total whackjob. Why is it Moore and his followers simply refuse to open their eyes to the evidence? It's like when they are presented with facts they stick their fingers in their ears and say LALALALALA at the top of their voices.

I still can't believe there are idiots here who think socialized medicine is a good thing. Sure, everyone has coverage, but the coverage sucks. People die waiting to be seen. Medicines that are extremely helpful aren't used because of the expense. I know this for fact, having family in Canada. Socialized medical coverage is NOT the answer, AT ALL.

So, should the inferior US system follow Cuba's model and simply quarantine all AIDS patients to let them die in solitude?
-=Mike

Go Fred! Even if he doesn't run for President, this video smackdown of a whiney hypocrite makes it very clear what he won't waste his valuable time on!

Jim: "Of course, the whole point of Michael Moore taking the 9/11 workers to Cuba, was to show that even Cuba's health system was better for the average working man than ours."

Wow. That explains all those people piling into rickety boats to try and evade the oppressive American Customs Service and land in the People's Paradise of Cuba!

Average Wizbang Poster: "I love how the right wing can get so many miles from trashing everything Hollywood stands for. But when they need someone to come to the rescue of their pathetic field of candidates, they always look to lightweight B-list actors like Reagen, Sonny Bono, Gopher from the Love Boat, and now Thompson."

Wow! Republicans "always look to ...actors"? Really? Always?

Are people on the left really this dumb, or is Rove paying some off to simply "look this dumb"?

Jim the apologist: "First, I'd just like to take this moment to point out that I am not now, nor have I ever, denied that Fidel Castro is a fascist dictator who is running an oppressive regime."

Wrong wrong wrong.

Castro is not a fascist dictator. Castro is your run-of-the-mill leftist COMMUNIST DICTATOR!!!

Which explains why the lefties in Academia and the media LOVE HIM!

Poor Jim, he thinks by simply repeating what his lefty masters have said he can make people forget that Castro is a man who is beloved by the far left and many in the "liberal" camp.

Nothing is keeping these whining crying moonbats here. Why don't they go to greener pastures where everything is better.

If things are so bad, I'll be glad to chip in for a one way bus ticket to Mexico or Canada.

I didn't know they remade Bambi vs. Godzilla

On a more positive note, that documntary guy didnt pay one red centavo for the elctro shock therapy OR the time in the institution.

One more way the cubans got us beat on the whole universal health care thingy

Judging from the number of commnets it's obvious Thompson decked Moore intellectually and ethically....too many libs protesting too much.

Remember the Benson/Quayle debate? Even conservatives admited that Benson scored a knockout of Quayle with his famous JFK retort. Watching Thompson today, my first reaction was "oh,that's going to leave a mark". That was my same reaction to Benson's remark.

"What a pathetic, un-presidential response from Thompson."

I'm damn tired of presidents and hopefuls worried about popularity points when they speak. I would much rather back a person that speaks their mind.

Every hospital in Cuba makes Walter Reed look like Cedars Sinai.

And going to India and Belgium for medical treatment? Good luck with that. And don't forget to sign the papers saying you can't sue, cuz that's the way it works.

Again, good luck with that.

geeze, Liberals are IDIOTS.....lol

Jim:

"I have absolutely no interest in your money." Oh really? So after you tax my ass to get what used to be my money it's your money and it can be used to pay your medical bills. I geddit.

"All I ask is, some time when you have absolutely busted your ass ..." Yadda. Yadda. That is not what you said in your first post.

"I guarantee you will be seeing things from another perspective." Jimmy, I'm an alcoholic who did time and I have been lower than a snake's belly. My perspective ain't changing for a 'contractor' who didn't pay for insurance and got a bad cold.

"$11,000 is an all-expenses paid weeks vacation in a 5-star hotel in France...". I cry bullshit, having been to France 2 years ago. $11K in a froggish 5-star is good for maybe a week, some services, low end food. The Georges V in Paris currently charges $US1047 per night for their bed and breakfast rack rate and way more for their serious rooms. The cheapest price L'Ambrosie can quote you for dinner is $US91 per person. No desert. For that you pay $US169. No booze, that's even more. Can't bullshit in the internet age no more, no how.

You were overcharged? What does that mean? They asked a price you didn't want to pay? So next time refuse, and die. And how much do you charge for whatever you do? Any discounts? How much and how often? I cry bullshit. You charge what the market will bear, just like the rest of us.

"I paid my bills and dealt with it. That debt is gone now." Evasive. Bankruptcy to make the debt gone?

"That means you don't believe in corporate welfare either, right?" Finally we agree, dodgy corporations are gross and I would call them and their officers the same names I call you. I want the state to stop taking my money and giving it to anyone - you, your useless relatives, corporate welfare bums, Al Sharpton, Al Gore, blacks, whites, asians aboriginals of any country or the queen of bloody Sheba. Look after your own useless asses.

"Here's the thing about evolution - humanity has group bonding because groups that hold together, survive better than individuals do." I agree but I'll pick my own group thanks. Guess what. You ain't in it.

LOL, I have been to Cuba, legally. Health care for the poor Cubans is non existent. They get the most basic of preventive and emergency care, and virtually nothing for catastrophic and surgical care. A foreigner staying in one of their very nice hotels (for foreigners only) can get much better care from the hotel doctor than the poor Cuban.

Castro has whored out his country; its young women, soldiers and doctors. He has left the people of Cuba with nothing but empty socialist slogans, decaying buildings and empty food bowls. It's a third world country with third world health care for its people.

The reason people without insurance pay a higher cost for a procedure or time in the hospital is because they are paying the equivalent of a rack rate. Obviously insurance and other buying groups have negotiated lower rates because they assure the hospital an approximate level of steady patients so the hospital can better schedule and level load their medical resources, ensuring a more efficient cost. Similar to any buying group. If you want lower health care costs, join a group. But you will have to pay into the plan to get the lower costs. It isn't free.

If you want health care, or insurance, or lobster, etc, STFU and go out and earn what you need to to pay your bills.

Its easier for the ignorant and the lazy to beg for Uncle Sam to provide for them, than to just buckle your chinstrap, and do it yur damned self.

Self reliance is a bitch huh dimmies?

Uh, Fred,

Never mind.

The more I look at this, the more it looks like Thompson used Moore like a little bitch from the beginning. He did to Moore what Moore tries to do to others. He deliberately poked the sleeping dog with a stick and when the dog barked back, whack with a zinger.

It seems that the people behind Thompson actually have the brains master manipulator Karl Rove supposedly has.

n regard to quality and accessibility of medical surgery in this country, NBC had a report tonight as to the growing phenomenon of Americans going to Belgium, India etc for surgical procedures at a fraction of the US cost.

And a fraction of the quality.

BlacquesJacquesShell...

I would forget about Jim. Comfortable in his knowledge that he can walk in any ER in the USA and be treated. Unlike you and I, he has never endured the wonderful merry-go-round that is NHS.

I particularly liked his comment about the illegals using ER:

Are you saying it would be better if the poor just died quietly?

No, dumbass, it would be better if the ILLEGALS, who SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE didn't abuse OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM. Get it, genius?

If these yahoos really think the US Healthcare system is bad, they should do what Canadians do when dissatisfied with their quality of health care---cross the border.

So, please, do so. Or better yet, go to the UK and get yourself involved in the NHS racket. And NHS has it's own problems with non-subjects abusing the system.

Hell, just try going to a bloody dentist in the UK under NHS. Hope you brought enough aspirin.

$11,000? That's nice...you got treated in fairly short order. Try that over there...you will have advanced to double pneumonia by then.

Is the US Healthcare system perfect? Far from it. Is it overburdened with illegals taking advantage? You bet. Is there far too much needless testing because of lawsuits? Hell yes! But, if I need a transplant, there's no other place I want to be than here.

C'mon....INDIA, for Christ's sake?

The problem I have with Moore is his attempt to paint the "socialist workers paradise" of Cuba as being superior to the United States. Hell, why doesn't he just go to North Korea while he is at it and talk about the "living wages" that they get there and how great it is the government provides, or go to Iran get the scoop on the Mullah's "tolerance" of homosexuality and how it is better than the Christofacists back here in the states. He might as well....they'd contain the same amount of truth...

Michael Moore: half-assed "documentary" filmmaker who pulls so many manipulative stunts that he completely discredits himself, IMO.

Castro: Dictator. And not exactly an advocate of human rights, democracy, and so on.

Pinochet: An example of an atrocious rightist dictator, just to keep everyone honest.

Fred Thompson: wasting his time by playing media games with the likes of Michael Moore.

If Thompson is serious about some kind of presidential run, then I personally think he should avoid playing little games with people like Michael Moore. Our politics has enough of an entertainment aspect to it already...

Moore's film "Roger and Me" was pretty good. Then, he lost it and resorted to pretty much pure propaganda.

Of course, that's purely my opinion.

Moore makes the worst liberal mistake possible, by supporting the Castro/Stalin types because they go around challenging the right-wing. There are despots on both sides of the political spectrum, and people need to realize this.

How many of the above Wizfools have seen the latest Moore film/

Just as I thought; that the film was made by Moore is all you close-minded fools and the ass, Thompson need to know.

OTH, all I need to know about Thompson is that he was the quack lawyer who did his damndest, using every possible obfuscation he could manage, to help Nixon escape accountability after he, Nixon, had criminally shredded the Constitution.

Nice to see who your Wizheroes are.

How many of the above Wizfools have seen the latest Moore film

I saw "Roger and Me", which was mildly amusing, and "Bowling", which was utter tripe. That was enough money and time wasted.

Nice to see who your Wizheroes are.

You are just Wizjealous of our Wizardry and Wiztastic sense of Wizdistain.

Wieder:

Just as I thought; that the film was made by Moore is all you close-minded fools and the ass, Thompson need to know.

Well, I'm by no means captain conservative around these parts, and I think that Moore has lost his marbles. He has resorted to the politics as dumbed-down entertainment form of communication, which I don't find very enlightening. Let alone balanced. Let alone well-stated.

At worst he pulls stunts which disgrace the genre of documentary film.

Like I said, "Roger and Me" was good. The rest? Well, they aren't documentaries, that's for sure.

wieaner you sound just like old "pucker puss" (lee lee) (RTP) (RM) also know as "Lee Ward" (as in insane ward) over at "blue". Don't see how he has time for this side as there is so "many" posts to his copy and paste articles.
wieaner do you really think anyone in his right mind would pay good money to see anything Moore does? Better to give it to poor old "Jim" to help with his $11,000 bill even if it did save his life.

As Clarice says "I want an SOB for president". I do too, and we may just get him. Didn't this make us all feel sooooo good, that FINALLY someone on our side smacks down a moonbat?

How about Clarice for President. Or Attorney General. How about head of the Office of Professional Responsibility?
===============================

TSK9 for head of the CIA. What a snoop.
=========================

jim, you dipstick. Think about it - You're harping on the conditions at Walter Red.

But you want to make it universal. Don't make me spell it out for you.

I'd say you're amusing, but you're not; you're dangerous.

Anyone who thinks Cuba has a better healthcare system then the US is lost to dementia. No reason to bother to disuade. The self-loathing, american hating left is so out of touch. Always with the hand out. Always wanting what the other has. ww

I'll give you me as an example. Last year I had no health insurance. I was a contractor, going from one quick gig to another; couldn't afford it. Fought off a cold. Went to a couple of doctors, no solution. Finally wound up in a hospital due to undiagnosed infection and allergic reaction to medication, compounded by fever and dehydration.

I stayed in the hospital for 3 days. No operations, just medication, rehydrating drip and some doctor examinations.

The cost?

*****$11,000****. Plus expenses. I s--t you not.

WTF.

Posted by: jim at May 15, 2007 06:22 PM

Jim,

As a contractor, I'm sure you will understand this question. If you performed your contractor services for me, would you expect to get paid? Yes/No?

Why then do you expect Physicians(contractors of medicine) to recieve 20% of billed services and be paid 3 months after services were performed. Also, if I call you in the middle of the night or on weekends, would you bill me extra? Yes/No?

How would you like to be required by law to perform your services day or night weekend or not regardless of my ability to reimburse you for said services?

You are an irresponsible citizen for not carrying health insurance. I'm sure whatever state you are a contractor in requires you to be licensed and bonded and register with the registrar of contractors? That is insurance sir.

BTW, $11,000 for 3 days in the hospital is extremely cheap!

This is easy, folks. By every action of his life, Michael Moore demonstrates that he is NOT interested in an honest debate. Fred is responding, correctly, to that.
====================================

weider: "OTH, all I need to know about Thompson is that he was the quack lawyer who did his damndest, using every possible obfuscation he could manage, to help Nixon escape accountability after he, Nixon, had criminally shredded the Constitution."

Ha ha ha.

The lefties can't help themselves! They only have a few talking points and they just stick to them.

For the record Weider, Thompson was the SENATE COMMITTEE Lawyer (not Nixon's lawyer asshat!) who asked the first question that cascaded Nixon towards impeachment:

"On the afternoon of July 16, 1973, Fred Thompson catapulted himself into history by asking a simple question.

"Mr. Butterfield, are you aware of the installation of any listening devices in the Oval Office of the president?" the sideburned, 30-year-old Tennessee lawyer asked President Nixon's aide, Alexander Butterfield.

"I was aware of listening devices, yes, sir," Butterfield told Thompson and members of the Senate committee investigating the break-in by Nixon operatives at Democratic Party headquarters in the Watergate building.

Revelation of the tapes, which clearly showed Nixon's involvement in covering up the break-in, set off a cascade of events that led to the president's resignation."

So, ONCE AGAIN, we have a lefty (Weider) who gets the actual facts ASS BACKWARDS. The only question is: was it on purpose, or is Wieder just stupid?

Actually, it's both. Wieder (like "I'm BryanD and I like to quote Pravda as an objective source about the neo-con jooooos") is stupid enough to simply believe whatever his Media Matters masters tell him, and his masters know that they are directly contradicting what actually occurred.

Thanks Wieder!!! We needed another blatant lying example from the left, and right on Karl Rove's mind-control cue, you show up and delight us!

It is amusing, a propagandist desiring a debate. Bring on the director of Loose Change.
=======================

Life expectancy, USA: 78 years
Life expectancy, Cuba: 77 years

Where do you think these Cuban statistics originate? From the Cuban Communist health system that Castro didn't use to treat his recent illness. What does Castro know that is not reflected in this statistic?

Cuba's version of Baghdad Bob creates these statstics for Cuba.

Good Lord, Wieder, I was trying to take you seriously. What about what Drago has? Do you mouth talking points without checking, or was this deliberate? Are you a useful fool, or one of the evil manipulators.

Before I take you seriously any more, I'd like to see where you got your ideas about Thompson and Nixon?
=============================

This is like all those scholars who trumpet the Canadian health care system. Talk to a Canadian who has been waiting for six months just to see a doctor about a pain, and they will tell you their health care sucks.

Anyone extolling the Canadian health care is either ignorant or a charlatan. My wife is Canadian and has watched as a grandfather and uncle died of cancer, both awaiting appointments with 'specialists'. Yup, you're right. In the appropriate vernacular: It sucks. But, this is a common case of libs discussing something of which they know nothing. Logic is lost on the left. Pearls, swine, futile.

Drago: "So, ONCE AGAIN, we have a lefty (Weider) who gets the actual facts ASS BACKWARDS. The only question is: was it on purpose, or is Wieder just stupid?"

Join kim as another stupid twit, ranting about something of which you know nothing.

That Watergate Senate Investigation performance you reference was a Thompson STUNT and you, like many others, fell for it because you know nothing.

"Far from a surprise attack by Thompson, this question had already been answered by Butterfield the previous Friday, during questioning by investigators of the minority and majority staffs. By Monday, even the White House had been prepped for the revelation; Thompson had phoned White House counsel Fred Buzhardt over the weekend to inform him the committee knew about the tapes. After some debate, it had been decided that Thompson would ask the key question during the televised hearings as a show of the Republicans' commitment to uncovering the truth. This was typical Thompson, says former Watergate investigator Scott Armstrong. "'All of the investigating was done in private, then Thompson would try to set it up so that if there was a kill [during the hearings], he'd look like he was in on it'"

Drago: "So, ONCE AGAIN, we have a lefty (Weider) who gets the actual facts ASS BACKWARDS. The only question is: was it on purpose, or is Wieder just stupid?"

Join kim as another stupid twit, ranting about something of which you know nothing.

That Watergate Senate Investigation performance you reference was a Thompson STUNT and you, like many others, fell for it because you know nothing.

"Far from a surprise attack by Thompson, this question had already been answered by Butterfield the previous Friday, during questioning by investigators of the minority and majority staffs. By Monday, even the White House had been prepped for the revelation; Thompson had phoned White House counsel Fred Buzhardt over the weekend to inform him the committee knew about the tapes. After some debate, it had been decided that Thompson would ask the key question during the televised hearings as a show of the Republicans' commitment to uncovering the truth. This was typical Thompson, says former Watergate investigator Scott Armstrong. "'All of the investigating was done in private, then Thompson would try to set it up so that if there was a kill [during the hearings], he'd look like he was in on it'"

Apologies for the duplicate post

"Before I take you seriously any more, I'd like to see where you got your ideas about Thompson and Nixon?" kim aka Pavlovian puppet

er...They are facts, you twit. See above. you're seemingly not even on thin ice. Rather you just jack-knifed into an empty pool.

And before either of you twits (Drago and kim know-nothig) attempt to dispute the bona fides of the above quoted Scott Armstrong here's a little info about him for the greviously misinformed.

"While serving as a senior investigator for the Senate Watergate committee, Mr. Armstrong conducted an interview with White House staff member Alexander Butterfield that led to the discovery of the Richard M. Nixon White House taping system."[2] "

As a little knowledge of history shows, Thompson is a charlatan. But then, that seems to be exactly what Wizfools dlike you two desire most in a candidate.

this question had already been answered by Butterfield the previous Friday,

Sorry to disappoint, but this is common legal process for all those in the profession without regard to ideological persuasion. The dramatics in the courtroom are never on par with Perry Mason. Thompson wrote of this in his memoirs as something that was far from hidden. You've got nothing but hype from the same newspapers everybody reads.

Oh, and make certain you're not a silly, annoying person before you accuse someone of being the same. It's embarrassing.

You are right, Wieder, I know little about this. This I know. Thompson is still asking the right questions. Why is that?
====================================

This is like all those scholars who trumpet the Canadian health care system. Talk to a Canadian who has been waiting for six months just to see a doctor about a pain, and they will tell you their health care sucks.

Talk to a working, legal family of US citizens that's been driven to bankruptcy by insurance and hospital costs, and they'll tell you the US health care system sucks.

Talk to a statistician, and they'll tell you that the US has the 2nd worse infant mortality rate in the 1st world.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/index.html

Facts aren't fun, but they are worth looking into. They're the best way to make things better.

Guess what? Something's wrong with health care for our citizens, and it's worth fixing.

And what questions would those be? Further, what answers do you know that he gives?

And pointing out that the Cuban average film documentary man was given over to the Cuban health care system is NOT changing the subject.

Really?

Since the original subject was the US health care system, changing the subject to Fidel's oppressive behavior is not changing the subject. Well, interesting that you see the world that way.

What, you want sympathy?

No, I figured maybe you might benefit from some *facts*. You know, remember those? They're the things that tell you what reality is like. They miss you.

It's expense to house little ingrates like you I reckon...

Gosh, how dare I suggest there might be problems with our God-given insurance industry and health care system, put in place by the Founding Fathers.

I notice you keep comparing conditions at Walter Reed with those in Cuba. That's pretty stupid because it proves that government hospitals are inferior to those in the private sector.

Really? That's interesting, since Walter Reed's problems didn't get so bad before Bush was in office. Then he ignored them. If the Democrats hadn't come to power in the Congress and Senate, all the problems affecting our soldiers would have been swept under the rug, and no one would have even been fired.

See, there's a difference between good government, and bad government. It's nice to try to get a secondary benefit from Bush's terrible record, by using his failures as an attempt to show *all* government is bad...but Walter Reed, like many things in this country, simply wasn't this bad before Bush. That's factual reality.

Go watch some Fox TV if you don't believe me:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/04/brit-hume-on-walter-reed-it-looks-terrible-for-the-bush-administration-which-is-the-problem/

However you are the one claiming that socialized medicine is the answer to the problem.

Why do you people keep hearing this loud voice in your heads, that has nothing to do with me?

I am telling you we need **a** solution, because what we have doesn't work. You can call it anything you like.

I wished you ...

YOu know what? I don't wish that you die. I wish that someday you think for yourself with facts, rather than jump around triggered by your fears and responding with talking points.

You're a human being and you have all this free will available to you, and yet you refuse to actually engage with reality and respond to things *i never actually said* instead.

I particularly liked his comment about the illegals using ER:

Are you saying it would be better if the poor just died quietly?

I'm glad you liked this comment. Unfortunately you're responding to the voices in your head rather than me.

Do you seriously think there are no poor **US citizens** in this country??

Guess what? There's lots of them, lots of them work *very* hard, lots of them can't afford health care, and lots of them can't get out of poverty because of it.

If any of you tough guys have ever had a kid, or a family member who had to be hospitalized for a long period of time, or ever had to deal with looking at *death* if you don't get an operation and have a health insurance agent try to red-tape you out of it so they can cut costs, then I guarantee you'd think differently.

It's always different when it happens to someone else.

Next time, try thinking. It's fun, easy, and good for you.

Wow. That explains all those people piling into rickety boats to try and evade the oppressive American Customs Service and land in the People's Paradise of Cuba!

Wow, people! The voices in your heads are really loud! You guys are hearing all sorts of things I never said.

You guys need help.

Wrong wrong wrong.

Castro is not a fascist dictator. Castro is your run-of-the-mill leftist COMMUNIST DICTATOR!!!

OK, sure, whatever. He's a red pinko Darth Vader. This has what to do with the US health system?

Poor Jim, he thinks ... he can make people forget that Castro is a man who is beloved by the far left and many in the "liberal" camp.

Poor Drago, he actually thinks this argument has anything to do with what Jim actually is saying about anything.

Why then do you expect Physicians(contractors of medicine) to recieve 20% of billed services and be paid 3 months after services were performed. Also, if I call you in the middle of the night or on weekends, would you bill me extra? Yes/No?

How would you like to be required by law to perform your services day or night weekend or not regardless of my ability to reimburse you for said services?

Thank you for entering into an actually calm and constructive discussion.

I'd like to still point out that I am not saying:

a) doctors shouldn't get paid
b) doctors should have to work for free

I'll also note that both (a) and (b) are more likely under our present system.

I think doctors should be paid, and doctors shouldn't have to work for free.

One of the many problems with our current health care system, is that health insurance costs a ridiculous amount. And this amount has shot up about 20% a year, with no increase in costs, to where it has doubled or more.

Malpractice insurance costs is a perfect example of this. As noted in a report I linked to upstream in this page, the rise in malpractice costs have basically been in step with the increase in population, while the insurance has skyrocketed for no reason.

This is known as price gouging. It requires fixing. The state of our health system and what it costs the average working US citizen is scandalous. We should be the best in the world! We shouldn't have more babies dying than every developed European nation, just barely being better than Latvia is a shame in itself.

You are an irresponsible citizen for not carrying health insurance. I'm sure whatever state you are a contractor in requires you to be licensed and bonded and register with the registrar of contractors?

Nope. This may be some confusion here; I am a contract worker. I am not a building contractor.

BTW, $11,000 for 3 days in the hospital is extremely cheap!

I know it could have cost a lot more. That's the scary part.

Just to be clear to all of you, so you can actually respond to what I'm saying, and not what you *think* I'm saying:

- our US healthcare system is worse, for the average citizen, than just about any other nation in the developed world. I've linked to reports above, covering this from various angles. Let me know if you guys want more.

- one of the several reasons US health care is worse, is because the health insurance industry can charge almost anything it wants

- this means we should do something about our health care system.

- Fred Thompson weaseled out of Moore's questions, and responded with a bit of showboating perhaps suitable to an actor, but not at all suitable to someone who wants to be a President.

*Looking* presidential means sitting in an office and acting like a good strong father figure.

*Being* presidential means not being afraid to address an opponent's arguments in a debate, or AT LEAST in a response.

Now, please note what I am NOT saying, so you do not waste your AND my time spewing a lot of hot angry air:

- I'm not saying Fidel Castro is a wonderful man we should emulate, and we should all move to Cuba.

- I'm not saying we should be taxed to death to pay for illegal immigrants' health care

- I'm not saying doctors should be ripped off

- I'm not saying what conservatives are somehow terrified of, "socialized medicine", is the only solution. Come up with your own solution, if that scares you so much!

And finally, what I am confident of, is that we as Americans can do better.

Are you guys NOT confident in the US?

Do you guys really think that our current health care system is the BEST the US can do?

If any of you tough guys have ever had a kid, or a family member who had to be hospitalized for a long period of time, or ever had to deal with looking at *death* if you don't get an operation and have a health insurance agent try to red-tape you out of it so they can cut costs, then I guarantee you'd think differently.

And anyone who doesn't think that this will occur with socialized healthcare is just plain naive. Try explaining to your loved-one that they have to wait to see the specialist. In our case the wait was 3 months too long. Try having a heartrending conversation with a government bureaucrat about how you can't wait, how time is running out. Then listen to the excuses while you watch life ebb. Then you'll know just how tough you are. Then you'll vow that it won't happen again.

But, you can do this little experiment yourself: Go down to your local driver's license branch and ask for a little specialized assistance. That look you'll get is the same look you'll receive when you're trying to keep your loved one alive. Then you'll understand hopelessness.

Now, before you start thinking, next time start with investigating. Because you'll end up in the wrong place if you use the wrong facts.

2 cents:

A lot of you folks are ganging up on Jim here, without reading what the guy is actually saying. He is indeed being crtitcal of the US healthcare system. This is true. But many of you are assuming automatically that he is supporting socialized medicine. This is not, as I read it, what he is saying.

Being critical of the US healthcare system does not mean that someone is automatically an advocate of Castro-esque "socialized" healthcare; it means that someone thinks there are problems with our system that should be addressed.

It's great to disagree and debate, but at least take the time to read and consider what the other side is actually saying.

Note to folks who tend to overreact: This does not mean that I agree with everything that Jim is saying.

And anyone who doesn't think that this will occur with socialized healthcare is just plain naive. Try explaining to your loved-one that they have to wait to see the specialist.

Exhibit A for not taking the time to read what the other side is ACTUALLY arguing.

Exhibit A for not taking the time to read what the other side is ACTUALLY arguing.

Exhibit A for not taking the time to read what I was ACTUALLY saying. Jim's ruling out the US healthcare system and I'm ruling out socialized medicine. So, now we can explore other ideas. But, anyone who thinks I'm going to shut up if they imply that the US system is more broken than Canada's (or any other socialized model), then they'll have to watch and see. I have firsthand experience with both, and if the choice is between the two, then I'll take the former hands down, and I'll tell everyone why. Clear? Good.

Exhibit A for not taking the time to read what I was ACTUALLY saying.

The quote that you were discussing from Jim made no reference to socialized medicine, but you immediately did. It seemed as if you were insinuating that he was a proponent of the idea that socialized medicine is THE answer, which he isn't.

Jim's ruling out the US healthcare system and I'm ruling out socialized medicine.

Fair enough. Point taken. Sorry for jumping the gun on you.

So, now we can explore other ideas.

Sounds good to me.

ryan a,

With all due respect, every statistic, every suggestion jim has made has been in reference to the US healthcare system vs. countries with socialized medicine. jim hasn't offered any ideas of his own on how to fix the US system, only comparisons to socialized healthcare systems, so attacking or debunking the idea that socialized medicine is the answer is germane when responding to jim.

jim,

Whoa jim, nothing like lighting a fire under your liberal *ss huh?

Stop listing your silly infant death statistics. That could be the worst and most inefficient way to rate a country's healthcare. There is no standard practice across countries to report infant deaths, what the U.S. considers a live birth can easily be reported as a stillborn in other counties. Your statistics prove nothing.

And when exactly are you going to suggest something besides socialized medicine to fix the problems you see? As far as I can tell, you have no other suggestions.

Also, why are you still of the delusion that Thompson was changing the subject? Everything Thompson said was pertinent to this debate. Besides, Moore clearly had no intention to debate U.S. healthcare. Points 1 through 4 in Moore's letter have nothing to do with the US system and everything to do with Thompson's work and efforts in the past. Seriously, cutting funding to Aids research is a part of US Healthcare? Come on.

Michael Moore is in great shape physically! Cuba has the best healthcare! Rosie O'Donnell is beautiful inside and out! Barbra Steisand is one of the smartest people alive! The US is to blame for all the world's ills!

Sincerely,

Lisping American Leftist

Ryan, did you read jim's first post at 5:01PM? If that wasn't advocating for socialized healthcare, then I don't know what is.

Oyster,

Indeed, I did. I see what you're saying, but what I think Jim was trying to do was make the comparison in order to express his opinion of our health care system.

Of course, the whole point of Michael Moore taking the 9/11 workers to Cuba, was to show that even Cuba's health system was better for the average working man than ours.

See how he used the phrase "even Cuba's health system"??? Jim seemed to be making the point that it would be a sad statement on our healthcare system if Castro's dictatorship produced BETTER healthcare. That is different than endorsing socialized medicine as the end-all answer.

There's a subtle difference there, but I think it's important. And I think that many people were misreading Jim's comparison, and thinking that he was some Castro advocate--which I think he clearly is not.

Like I said, I'm not saying that I agree with all of Jim's contentions here. Especially the idea of using a Michael Moore film as a basis for debate, since Moore produces anything but balanced and accurate "documentaries." But I do think some people were overdoing it a bit in responding to Jim.

J.R.

With all due respect, every statistic, every suggestion jim has made has been in reference to the US healthcare system vs. countries with socialized medicine.

I'm saying that some folks were jumping the gun in reacting to him because they misinterpreted what he was asserting. Being critical of the US health care system does not automatically mean that one has to support socialized medicine. Jim did not seem to be asserting the idea that Castro's Cuba is the paragon of medical virtue by any means.

His main point seems to be that our current health care system is far from ideal. And that we might actually be able to figure out something BETTER. I'm all for improvement, especially after some of the dealings that I have had with insurance companies in the past.

I think that Jim's use of Michael Moore wasn't the greatest way to invoke a discussion around these parts though.

I'm glad someone else pointed out the problems with listing infant death rates. Unless the way each country reports those statistics is included a comparison of rates is useless.

Folks, whenever did socializing anything? Whenever did administrative costs eat up 40% of the wealth expended?
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Folks, whenever did socializing anything help? Whenever did administrative costs eat up 40% of the wealth expended?
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Folks, whenever did socializing anything help? Whenever did administrative costs eat up 40% of the wealth expended?
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Folks, whenever did socializing anything help? Whenever did administrative costs eat up 40% of the wealth expended?
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Looks like socialized blog commenting.
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Malpractice insurance costs is a perfect example of this. As noted in a report I linked to upstream in this page, the rise in malpractice costs have basically been in step with the increase in population, while the insurance has skyrocketed for no reason.

Jim,

With all due respect, malpractice insurance is paid for by physicians/health care providers, but the reason for the skyrocketing health insurance premiums is because of the extreme rise in cost by the Hospitals and ancillary services. If you look at that $11,000 bill, I'll bet a suprisingly small percentage is Physician fees.

The costs to hospitals of new technology is unbelievable. A CT scanner costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and is out-dated within 3 years. An MRI machine is even more expensive and is obsolete in a matter of MONTHS!

"Whenever did administrative costs eat up 40% of the wealth expended?"

When you have health care like here in the US w/ insurance companies skimming between 30-40% of the costs while handing out decamillions in compensation to fat overpaid executives.

Ah, Wieder, you caught it. I'm proud of you. Now, granted, a single payer system might help that. Now what if your government supplied doctor tells you something you don't want to hear, as I'm sure one will?
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What makes you think government monopoly administrators won't become 'fat overpaid executives' without shareholders to hold their feet to the fire, or take their money and run.
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I particularly liked his comment about the illegals using ER:
Are you saying it would be better if the poor just died quietly?
I'm glad you liked this comment. Unfortunately you're responding to the voices in your head rather than me.

Hi, arsehole. I liked it because you were trying to defend ILLEGAL ALIENS abusing the US Healthcare system by vomiting up this pathetic excuse.

Guess what, genius, there are poor in all countries using socialized medicine, and guess what? Many of them suffer enormously from long queues, inadequate access to perscription medications not authorized by NHS, etc. There is a reason why private insurance is a boon in the UK.

It doesn't take away from my original point. The ILLEGALS do not have rights to our US Healthcare system, whether it's socialized or not.

ryan a:

I'm saying that some folks were jumping the gun in reacting to him because they misinterpreted what he was asserting. Being critical of the US health care system does not automatically mean that one has to support socialized medicine

Agreed, but ole jim has not offered any other solution/comparison/improvement other than to suggest socialized healthcare systems.

Jim did not seem to be asserting the idea that Castro's Cuba is the paragon of medical virtue by any means.

Well maybe he's not, but he is being intellectually dishonest (as is M. Moore) if he thinks that what Castro is showing Moore is representative of their entire healthcare system. Castro is a crazy dictator who controls everything and if anyone thinks he didn't control this "documentary" they are nuts. Castro must be loving it that this film was made, more to belittle the U.S. (and most likely the GOP) than to try and improve upon our healthcare system. So jim's observations were rightly rebuked and cast aside.

And see what happens when we ask jim for actual suggestions other than socialized medicine, he disappears.

Agreed, but ole jim has not offered any other solution/comparison/improvement other than to suggest socialized healthcare systems.

Well, to be fair nobody was really offering any solutions. But yes, Jim wasn't exactly offering up many ideas for change. Although, I did see him make a couple of brief suggestions. Most of the time he was trying to explain what he was really saying. Hence the problem with attack-style debate: it gets the other person on the defensive and derails the discussion.

Well maybe he's not, but he is being intellectually dishonest (as is M. Moore) if he thinks that what Castro is showing Moore is representative of their entire healthcare system. Castro is a crazy dictator who controls everything and if anyone thinks he didn't control this "documentary" they are nuts.

Oh, you'll get no argument from me about this. Moore produces his films to try to make his political points, whether or not they are accurate, fair, of factually based. He pulled political stunts all through Farenheit 9/11.

I don't know if I would call it intellectually dishonest on Jim's part though. I would just suggest that he take a more critical look at Moore's methods, and maybe read a bit more about the realities of Cuba, before using those examples as a basis for debate.

Of course Castro will be more than happy to parade someone like Moore around and show him "the real" Cuban health care system. Reality be damned as long as the political points are scored.

To be honest though, I doubt that Castro had to do much controlling, since Moore tends to gravitate toward things that proves his point in his films, whether or not they are representative of what's really going on.

About US health care: We pay more and get less than any other western industrialized nation. That's a fact.

Fred Thompson is poorly informed about Cuba. But then again so are most Americans, which is why he can get away with it.

Thompson has a long history as one of the laziest senators to have ever come down the pike--I'm not surprised he responded to Michael Moore's challenge to debate the health care system in America without doing any homework, with out-of-left-field cracks that came from Cuban exiles in Miami. They're not any more credible than the Iraqi exiles who filled the Neocons' heads with lies about Saddam's nuclear stash. Curveball leading on the Screwballs.

I'm also not surprised that Thompson's fans are thrilled not to get educated on the facts of America's health care problems. Anything to remain stuck in their irrational hatred for liberals (liberals, who care more about and do more for people than Republicans ever have).

Life expectancy for Cubans is surprisingly long (about equal to Americans, which lags behind other industrialized nations), considering what our embargo has done to them. Imagine how long it would be if they got the medications that the embargo has prevented from reaching them.

That's the problem, the embargo. American Journal of Public Health study concluded:
"To be consistent with international humanitarian law, embargoes must not impede access to essential humanitarian goods. Yet this embargo has raised the cost of medical supplies and food rationing, universal access to primary health services, a highly educated population, and preferential access to scarce goods for women and children help protect most Cubans from what otherwise might have been a health disaster."

Conservatives have a long history of panic over the idea that one day, Americans will wake up, and realize we've been exploited by the rich and powerful. To head that off, Conservatives have done everything they can to destroy the economies of communist nations while ranting about "them evil commies" and "the welfare state."

The fact is that if we continue down this path, of deregulating and privatizing America's resources, with Corporate Presidencies, it won't be long before Americans will find ourselves in the same boat with other nations victimized by IMF and World Bank policies.

But back to Moore and Thompson.

How can anybody call themselves patriotic Americans, and high-five Thompson's attack on Moore for calling attention to Bush' and Republicans' turning their backs on the 9/11 first responders?

About 40,000 people came from all over the US and worked at ground zero clearing away that mess, and they're being denied care and help. Bush is wasting $8 billion a month in Iraq, while he and Republicans refuse to get on the bandwagon for helping the heroes who stepped up. Even the Russians treated their Chernobyl workers better than this. Health experts estimate the hospital needs $250 million a year to treat these sick people.

We need fewer Fred Thompsons in this country and more like Michael Moore.

Fred Thompson's unlit cigar might be Cuban. Obviously, by appearing with a cigar in his mouth he is less than a role model for healthy lifestyle practices.

Nevertheless, debating Michael Moore would prove fruitless for him. Michael might observe that Nashville is not only the Country Western Capital of the U.S.A, but home base for some of the nation's biggest Medicare and Medicaid defrauders. Michael might be subjected to a litany of rationalizations related to why Americans pay 200-1000% more for RX medications than others throughout the world. He might even be drenched in how wonderful all the players in America's healthcare non-system have been in healing and curing.

Fred is so immersed in systemic political corruption that he has no prayer of ever comprehending or caring about the detrimental impact of America's unaccountable and unaffordable healthcare non-system. He and his colleagues operate quite comfortably on two tracks:
1. They push The American Taliban's 'moral values' agenda.

2. The agenda doesn't include responsiveness to human needs in an other than rhetorical context.

Hypocrisy laced with ignorance and drowning in dispassion are commonplace in today's America. We have come to expect dishonesty and pandering from our politicians. The problem isn't them. We have failed to render the prospect of another 'compassionate conservative' President aka sociopath impossible. And we enable, with our support, co-opted Dems and GOP candidates to evade coherent, rational and bold changes to the systemic deficiencies in the healthcare non-system we have now.