« The cruelty of treating lawbreakers like criminals | Main | Third Branch -- SCOTUS »

Takeaways From the Barfight

Yesterday was a mess. Once again, the problem of millions of illegal nationals in the United States gets tempers high and patience thin. Many claims were made by readers, some of which were considered and thoughtful, but others were repeats of bald-faced lies and hysteria. This is the way of things along the fringes of both sides, where only extreme action is considered tolerable. Other readers suggested what they wanted to see done, but the devil is in the details, and details in the plans were few and lonely. Now that a day has passed, I have examined the comment logs and would like to note these points from the fracas:

• No one likes the bill currently before us in the Congress. But stopping the thing is going to require a lot of pressure from everyone. Knightbrigade hit that nail on the head;
• Assuming the present bill is shot down, the problem will still need attention. To my mind, the status quo is unacceptable, but will be the default position of the politicians. And attacking everything which comes down the road just because it's not 100% of what you demand, plays into that position. If you're not backing a specific proposal, you're part of the problem, wounded ego or not;
• The media, old or new, cannot be trusted to do its job on this issue;
• Hysterical demands do not help, and do not convey a sense of considered thought to people trying to get the straight data;
• One extreme wants to give "rights" to foreign criminals, while the other wants to treat millions of people in an identically draconian fashion. Neither set of extremists has a functional plan for dealing with the real conditions;
• The problem, ultimately, must be separated into its component issues and each addressed, sanely, without the inflammatory rhetoric of demagogues like Kennedy or Tancredo. None of the noisemakers who get the most press contacts Border Patrol veterans for their information, or Immigration and Naturalization experts who have many years of direct experience with the people who directly react to government initiatives, or the Justice Department officials who can tell us how to best reduce the threat of violence from foreign nationals entering illegally. We should wonder why so many politicians sell spin ahead of the facts.


I went into yesterday's column well aware that the factions on the border and immigration issues are many in number and character, are hostile even to discussion, and are soiled by members unable to maintain a basic attempt to find a solution. The results, sadly, were predictable from the start.

Are you satisfied with yelling at someone else and calling that doing your part, or do you intend to work towards a solution? Up to you, but mobs won't solve this one. No matter what your bumper sticker says.


Comments (66)

One value of the internet i... (Below threshold)
kim:

One value of the internet is that conversations don't have to end in fisticuffs or, worse yet, agreement. Despite the dearth of solutions, the conversation is worthwhile. One thing I find interesting about the discussion is that there are at least 300,000,000 opinions about the issue. This has not yet been demagogued, and all that energy channeled.

Give it time.
=========

I feel sorry for the truly ... (Below threshold)
kim:

I feel sorry for the truly alien, with no desire to assimilate. Allah have mercy on them.
=========================================

Well kim, E.T. brought it o... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Well kim, E.T. brought it on himself, maybe.

I'll repeat, no one is agai... (Below threshold)
RG:

I'll repeat, no one is against immigration - IF and it's a big if, it's legal and in reasonable numbers. However, DC has shown again and again, that it's either unable or unwilling to control either aspect. President Bush is the worst on this issue. He simply loves Mexico and I also think he does want to see greater integration leading to a kind of North American Union. Our fathers and grandfathers fought and bled for this?

Today's immigration in a way really isn't normal immigration, it's simply about Mexico and a few other Central American countries exporting huge portions of their populations to our nation with all it's attendent negative consequences such as the sheer illegality - the fake or stolen ID's, social security numbers, driver licenses, drunk driving, income tax evasion, etc.

These nations, especially Mexico which is a wealthy country, refuse to enter the modern world and reform themselves, so they export their peasants and yes, in Mexico's case, export their criminals, sending them north so the American taxpayer can foot the bill. I say the best way to deal with Mexico is tough love. Cut out this deal, shun them, greatly tighten the border, workplace enforcement, eventually Mexico City will get the message and hopefully reforms will begin down there.

Beltway elites have sorely miscalculated how angry Americans are. Do we want to keep out "brown people"? We do not want half of Mexico, half of Canada, half of China or half of Russia. Why? Because it's EXCESSIVE! Besides, more than a few Latinos are reluctant to assimilate and show contempt for American laws, rules and yes, the English language. Don't wanna learn English? Don't bother coming here. Get it?

Drummond, we know which sid... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Drummond, we know which side of the issue you come down on. I suggest you venture over to Patterico's Pontifications. As an Attorney, he puts forth the best arguement I have seen so far as to why, what you refuse to call amnesty, is a bad idea. I doubt you will venture there as it will, if possible challenge your arguement.

Zelsdorf, by claiming you k... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Zelsdorf, by claiming you know "which side" I come down on, you only prove that you paid no attention to what I actually wrote.

You, and people like you, who want a fight and rant a whole lot more than you want to actually work out a solution, are a big part of the problem.

Here's my problem. In SE Co... (Below threshold)
Drew:

Here's my problem. In SE Conn. the vast majority of restaurant jobs(back of House) are illegals, same with landscaping and construction related entry level jobs. My 2 sons (back from College for summer) find it extremely difficult to find jobs, in the old days we would work as dishwashers, cooks etc, landscaping was big also. All of these jobs are filled now by non-legal people. I got stuck serving on a jury pertaining to DWI of an illegal, turns out that the guy was employed (along with his friends) at one of the large Indian Casinos here. The whole kitchen staff was from Ecuador and Mexico, all with various aliases. Empolyers should punished to the max!! I love it when I hear people pushing to raise the Min wage and at the same time are Pro illegal.

Here's a simple test, ZR:</... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Here's a simple test, ZR:

Do you believe I support the bil lpresently in front of Congress?

Why or why not?

I have been quiet specific about it, so if you have paid attention, this is an easy one to get right.

Do we really need a new law... (Below threshold)
Allen:

Do we really need a new law? What about enforcing the laws that are on the books now?

We have well thought out an... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

We have well thought out and legally passed immigration laws. We only lack the will to enforce them because someone might loose a 'vote'.
The wounded ego's from the 2000 election are destroying the country and people like the wanted criminal Soros have been adopted by the democrat party to help them destroy the country (follow Soros's vow).
When will the U.S. have as much common sense as 'France' and convict this man of his crimes? Never, as long as he provides the democrat party with millions of dollars he ripped off from someone else. His vow to destroy the freely elected government of America will be almost complete when he buys the presidency for Osama Obama, a member of Islam (or he would be dead).

Only an all out shooting/hanging civil war in the United States will ever get this country back on track.

Assuming the present bil... (Below threshold)
mcg:

Assuming the present bill is shot down, the problem will still need attention. To my mind, the status quo is unacceptable, but will be the default position of the politicians. And attacking everything which comes down the road just because it's not 100% of what you demand, plays into that position. If you're not backing a specific proposal, you're part of the problem, wounded ego or not;

DJ, you're being disingenuous here. Plenty of people in that previous thread offered specific plans. You just shot them down for, generally speaking, one of three reasons.

First, you blasted some as being incomplete in certain details. This is a blog discussion for crying out loud! And the current bill is what, 1000 pages long? You know darn well that the details just aren't going to fit within the discussion, which is why it's disingenuous to use that argument. If you want a specific detail, ask it, and that's fine, but to expect an effort on part with the current bill is unreasonable.

Second, you blasted other plans as being infeasible, unenforceable, etc. (As in, "enforce the current law.") But to make that argument it would seem at least reasonable to expect a defense of the current bill as feasible and enforceable. I think we have good reason to believe that this bill will never be implemented even remotely as it stands now. There are plenty of us "enforcement firsters" who would welcome a signficant boost in legal immigration or a guest worker program, if it were coupled with genuine enforcement---and we have good reason to demand we see some good faith effort on the enforcement side first.

And third, you blasted some plans as politically infeasible---such as the House Republican plan. Well, that's nothing but an argument to change the political climate. If the bill we have on the table today is the best this climate can come up with---well, we need a new one. And it would seem, in hindsight, we needed a new one then, too. I agree that in the long term the status quo on immigration is unacceptable, but I frankly am willing to push for longer term political change so that proper solutions do become politically feasible.

So in my view you have simply engaged in precisely the tactic you are accusing us of, which is to shoot down every plan that comes down the pike.

An excerpt from <a href="ht... (Below threshold)

An excerpt from Amnesty, shamnesty. Maybe it'll die in the Senate:

"Friends and neighbors, the best we can hope for under the current administration is no action of any sort on immigration. I realize that's a gamble. The bill currently under consideration is a wonderful bill compared to what we can expect under an Clinton or Obama administration, but if either of them ends up in the White House immigration is going to be a minor issue compared to the other problems we'll have anyway. As long as we keep the 12 or 20 or 30 million people who are in this country illegally illegal there's at least hope that under a Thompson administration an actual reasonable compromise can be worked out and actually implemented. Stall for time, people, stall for time."

DJ's solution is sorta like... (Below threshold)

DJ's solution is sorta like being sorta pregnant.

...still waiting for answers to your own questions, DJ. If the bill is passed, how do you propose to handle YOUR concerns?

DJ:I find what you've writt... (Below threshold)
Xennady:

DJ:I find what you've written equally inaccurate and bizarre.Glenn Beck says a lot about illegal immigration and he certainly talks to Border Patrol agents and various "experts" about border issues.Hugh Hewitt has actually been reading the bill.If opponents to this bill and other amnesty proposals seem a little heated it's because we have been ignored by the politicians for far to long.The root problem is the open, undefended border.This bill won't change that and, hence, is worthless.

DJ,You and I have ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

DJ,

You and I have gone round and round on this issue. What I and others call a plan for illegal immigration enforcement, you have charaterized as noise, infantile, stupid, ridiculous, and etc because of lack of details or politically unfeasable or whatever it is you can come up with to stike the plan down as worthless. Of course, worthless according to you and you alone.

But as of yet, and as mcg and Eric Forhan have both commented about, you have yet to lay out your specific plan with details on how you would stem the flow of illegals and deal with those already here? Don't you think that's important?

Any new plan is going to involve levels of complexity that anyone participating in a blog discussion is not going to have available to them. Thus, many of the plans being presented would contain the same amount of increased bureacracy and government that is most likely already contained in the "compromise" bill being presented today. So firing off about a lack of specifics in someone's elses plan is just a lazy retort on your part.

DJ: "You, and people lik... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

DJ: "You, and people like you, who want a fight and rant a whole lot more than you want to actually work out a solution, are a big part of the problem."

There's a bill; you're either for it or against it, and the "against it" side of the debate are aggressively pushing people to speak up in opposition. I don't think you're going to find people willing to talk about alternate solutions until this bill is killed, and even then the Tancredos of the world are not going to give an inch in this debate, regardless.

The foes of this bill are becoming increasingly marginalized in this debate. Eventually, and it make take years, there will be enough votes to override their objections, and they will have had no say in the results.

It won't be as if they didn't have a chance - but if they can't accept some form of compromise - they gets what they gets.....

And do you remember when th... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

And do you remember when the driving force behind the issue was about "border security"? As I said back then, it's not about homeland security -- its about the color of the immigrants skin, and the hatred in some people's hearts.

There is no simple, easy so... (Below threshold)
Taltos:

There is no simple, easy solution to the problem. If there were it wouldn't be much of a problem.

And do you remember when... (Below threshold)
Taltos:

And do you remember when the driving force behind the issue was about "border security"? As I said back then, it's not about homeland security -- its about the color of the immigrants skin, and the hatred in some people's hearts.

Of course. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with millions of people breaking the law and some thinking that allowing them to get away with it is foolish and an invitation to more of the same.

The uproar from both the le... (Below threshold)
nogo postal:

The uproar from both the left and right demonstrates that this is a compromise. As Kennedy is villified from the right... Kyle is the left's bogeyman..
When both side feel betrayed..both sides get a little..
I doubt that anyone here has a serious relationship where if compromise is not made the relationship withers..
As a moonbat lefty I am aware of several parts of this that are disturbing to me..but it is movement forward..
It appears there are some on the right who believe anything other mass round-up and deportation is "amnesty"

I "foes" of this debate wou... (Below threshold)

I "foes" of this debate would like the "friends" of it to answer how they're going to stop illegal aliens from crossing our borders. Are magic dragons going to appear to gently warn them from crossing or else they'll get a stern talking-to?

When both side fee... (Below threshold)
When both side feel betrayed..both sides get a little..

... and the politicians get a lot?

Whatever. It's thinking like this that leads to a whole lotta nowhere (and loss of freedoms).

LeeWard:As usual you are fu... (Below threshold)
Xennady:

LeeWard:As usual you are full of sh*t.If you don't think the open border is a national security problem you're just a moron.But we already know that about you.

A magic wall of mithril tha... (Below threshold)
mantis:

A magic wall of mithril that no one can climb over, dig under, or break will be constructed. It will be built by pixies for no pay and patrolled by the mighty Cerberus (when he isn't making cars). Problem solved!

At least until they refine this response.

Are magic dragons going ... (Below threshold)
Taltos:

Are magic dragons going to appear to gently warn them from crossing or else they'll get a stern talking-to?

I wish, since I was a kid I've always wanted a genetic lego set so that I could bulid myself a dragon.

mantis:Presently illegals j... (Below threshold)
Xennady:

mantis:Presently illegals just walk across the border.Having to climb, dig under, or break through a wall makes things much tougher.Even better if Uncle Sugar posts guards to prevent people from climbing over, digging under, or otherwise breaking through said wall.I know some people like to claim that building a wall is just too hard but the US has hundreds of thousands of miles of paved roads.Somehow they were built, even though it was really hard, and a wall can be built also.

"but mobs won't solve this ... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

"but mobs won't solve this one. No matter what your bumper sticker says".
Right now those that aren't feeling the effect on their families have their head in the sand, about immigration (criminal invasion) and the Iraq (WOT) war.

As soon as it effects their families they will scream for the gun and bullet solution. Human nature for survival will override the liberal surrender and 'give them everything' attitude. It's on the edge now, one incident will push it over the edge.

Sixty Six (66) years old, watching you young liberal fools, and laughing.

It's a recession when someone else loses their job, it's a depression when you lose yours.

It's someone else (Bush's) war and long as you and your family are safe. It will be your war when your family dies from a terrorist attack.

One incident will change it all. Will you wait until it's too late? Remember the Nazi's? They weren't half as dangerous as the democrat liberals and Islamist teamed togather, but it cost millions of lives to stop.

Curing the democrats wounded (my god, we lost two elections) ego has/will ruin millions of lives. Put a bandaide over they're infantile mouths for a couple of years and all would be well.

DJ,And is there an... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

DJ,

And is there any reason why any bill has to be comprehensive in dealing with each of your selected bulleted points?

Many people against this amnesty type bill (I'll address the amnesty thing later, I just say it to ruffle your feathers) know what happened in 1986, the last time we had to reform illegal immigration policies. That reform package was also coupled with new enforcement policies that never really seemed to take place, hence the reason why we now have 12 million more and more reform packages. So why one bill that encompasses everything, why not start off with just the enforcement only bill? Curious of your thoughts about that, of course after you give us your detailed plan.

And you can rightly label this bill as amnesty. Much like we label tax amnesty programs available from the IRS. It's not like you are forgiven your entire tax burden, you have to pay that plus fees and such, but it's not as much as if the IRS had prosecuted you to the letter of the law (and whether you are for or against those is a different thread entirely) and once it's over you are back to good standing with them. Much like with this immigration bill, you pay penalties that are much less severe than the ones you would normally be facing and you wind up with legal status. That is an amnesty program.

As I said back... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

As I said back then, it's not about homeland security -- its about the color of the immigrants skin, and the hatred in some people's hearts.

It is that sort of lazy dishonest sentiment that says the most about your character Lee Ward. You're a lying little weasel and no byline on any forum here at Wizbang can change that.

mantis:Presently illegal... (Below threshold)
mantis:

mantis:Presently illegals just walk across the border.Having to climb, dig under, or break through a wall makes things much tougher.

I don't think you realize how difficult it is to get across the border for most of these people.

Even better if Uncle Sugar posts guards to prevent people from climbing over, digging under, or otherwise breaking through said wall.

At what intervals? 1/2 mile maybe? 24-hour/day monitoring in three shifts makes about 12,000 guards working fulltime just to watch the desert. Do you realize what that would cost? Do you like raised taxes?

I know some people like to claim that building a wall is just too hard but the US has hundreds of thousands of miles of paved roads.

Who says it would be too hard? The problem is it would be extremely costly and have little to no benefit. Cost-benefit analysis is a basic economic tool.

Keep in mind this doesn't even address the problem of illegals who arrive in this country legally in the first place, which is most of them.

mantis:You mocked the conce... (Below threshold)
Xennady:

mantis:You mocked the concept of a wall.I responded to that.You note that it is often difficult for illegals to get across the border.Yep-because the measures we have already taken-like the wall at the border near San Diego-have made it somewhat more difficult to cross the border easily.A complete wall would make it much more difficult still.I'm quite willing to pay more in taxes to get this wall built and for whatever guards are necessary to keep it secure.I don't believe that raising taxes just for this would necessary but if it is so be it.Obviously, I disagree that it would have little or no benefit.Also obvious is that it won't deal with illegals that don't cross at the Mexican border.I'm willing to pay more in taxes to fix that too.

While I found Mantis' respo... (Below threshold)

While I found Mantis' response funny, I'm still waiting on how he, DJ or any others are going to slow or stop the flow of illegal aliens so we don't get in this position again.

Geez mantis, mithril? What... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Geez mantis, mithril? What about adamantite...oh yeah, that's the darker mythological metal and mithral is the lighter mythological metal. I see where you come in on this.

Seriously though, the construction of the wall doesn't need to be a straight up and down affair, walls can be made that are difficult to surmount for even the innovative La Scala.

As far as manning it, alot more can be done with electronic surveillance. If it's built in such a way that certain areas are easier to scale, that's where you put actual guards. A bottleneck of sorts.

I'm still not sure if it's the right idea, but it is one of many.

Apparently, the only way th... (Below threshold)

Apparently, the only way the existing economy (with a minimum wage, unemployment insurance, and workers' comp) can survive in its current form is to bring in people who don't get any such benefits. That's a sign of some sort of bubble, people, and it's been building for quite some time.

The Immigration mess didn't start with Bush. When did it start?

Xennady,You moc... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Xennady,

You mocked the concept of a wall.I responded to that.

And I responded to that. And then you responded to that and now I'm responding to you and weeeeee! this is fun.

ou note that it is often difficult for illegals to get across the border.Yep-because the measures we have already taken-like the wall at the border near San Diego-have made it somewhat more difficult to cross the border easily.

The hardship that most border-crossers encounter in getting to the border is much harsher than any wall that would block the last mile.

A complete wall would make it much more difficult still.I'm quite willing to pay more in taxes to get this wall built and for whatever guards are necessary to keep it secure.I don't believe that raising taxes just for this would necessary but if it is so be it.

You don't think raising taxes would be necessary? How would you pay for it? A realistic answer, please.

Obviously, I disagree that it would have little or no benefit.

Ok, one benefit. It would make people who like the symbolism of the wall feel better, while have little to no effect on illegal immigration rates. Great.

Also obvious is that it won't deal with illegals that don't cross at the Mexican border.I'm willing to pay more in taxes to fix that too.

And those taxes would go towards what method of fixing it, exactly?

Heralder,

As far as manning it, alot more can be done with electronic surveillance. If it's built in such a way that certain areas are easier to scale, that's where you put actual guards. A bottleneck of sorts.

Even if we ignore the cost of such technological "solutions," how would electronic surveillance work? Would this be some sort of motion detector system which would alert the guards of border crossers, who they could then pick up in trucks, or would people have to monitor video live? Would crossers be detained, or just put on the other side of the wall again?

Btw I'm not necessarily opposed to spending money and manpower in beefing up border security, but it would have to be done in such a way that is politically and financially feasible, and would have to actually work. So far I haven't heard any plan that would meet any, let alone all, of those criteria. And no, Forhan, I don't have one either.

The Immigration mess didn't start with Bush. When did it start?

The Irish (1820 - 1860)?

Drummond I gave you solutio... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Drummond I gave you solution, if you keep calling me names I will invite you to meet with me somewhere. F U. you puck.

Here's a very good slide pr... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

Here's a very good slide presentation concerning SPP, Nasco, and NAU. (might start at slide 2; click slide 1 then)

http://www.freedom.org/naugreen2/player.html

Lies, threats, and profanit... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Lies, threats, and profanity from you, hmm? You certainly are the complete package, Zelsdorf.

mantis,Such a larg... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

mantis,

Such a large area would probably be better monitored by infrared satellite, whereas the bottlenecks I mentioned could have more focused and reliable surveillance.

As far as what to do with illegals that are captured, whatever laws that aren't being enforced now should be enforced then.

This is all highly theoretical, because the cost would be astronomical, as would the upkeep. The problem alot of us are having is that policies seem to have zero mitigating effect on illegal immigration. So the next likely idea is to physically impede them, but that in the end, seems like a greater challenge than any other prospect put forth to date.

mantis:Wheee! Seriously,the... (Below threshold)
Xennady:

mantis:Wheee! Seriously,the feds spend 2900 billion dollars a year.They can find a few billion to build a fence.More specifically, cut a few billion from highway spending.Or end earmarks.Or end free medical care for illegals.Or raise taxes.Just do it.Just how much do you think a guarded fence will cost, anyway? A trillion dollars? The point is that the wall WOULD block that last mile.Again, I disagree with your assessment of the effectiveness of a wall.I believe it will work because it already has worked at San Diego.And enforcing existing law would go a long way towards solving the problem of illegals already here.It's not that hard.But it's extremely easy to find reasons why something you don't want to do anyway can't be done at all.Bush and most of congress plainly don't want to secure the border.It looks like a solution to this problem will require a new batch of politicians.

This is not a dating site, ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

This is not a dating site, Zelsdorf. If you're looking to hook up, might I suggest this site.

Are you satisfied ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:
Are you satisfied with yelling at someone else and calling that doing your part, or do you intend to work towards a solution? Up to you, but mobs won't solve this one. No matter what your bumper sticker says.

DJ, still waiting for your solution or is your solution to just keep putting down others for their solutions that you don't feel pass muster as solutions. Whew, did you get that? Seriously, you have neglected to answer some pretty honest questions from people who have had their reponses torn apart by you. Why no detailed solution of your own?

Or do you think we should all type up 700+ page bills for your considersation?

Not real big on reading com... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Not real big on reading comprehension, are you J.R.?

DJ, you still have yet to a... (Below threshold)

DJ, you still have yet to answer these questions. If you can't or won't your argument holds no water.

How will you:

[] Secure the national borders from constant and pervasive penetration by illegals, and potentially terrorists?

[] Enforce the laws already on the books, which address illegal possession of documents, especially forged and stolen documents, which address employment of illegals by American companies, and which address the disposition of persons found to have entered the United States illegally?

[] Address the presence of more than [future] twelve million foreign nationals already residing in the United States, in a manner which is compliant with the U.S. Constitution, viable given available resources, and realistic regarding the response by those persons to the initiative?

My thoughhts on how to solv... (Below threshold)

My thoughhts on how to solve the problem:

1) Secure the Border and fund this effort this fiscal year. BTW, I don't know the best way to secure the border but I have know doubt an effective and reliable solution is within the grasp of the US millitary and civilian agencies if the mandate is clear.
2) Impose strict and draconian penalties for US corporations and businesses that illegally employee illegal aliens...(intentionally redundant). Here's an example: if a small business or large US business does not follow payroll witholding tax rules the business owner and officers are at risk. Real, serious bona fide risk. Ask your accountant if you don't believe me. Make employment rules subject to the same enforcement. Implementation would be relatively simple (compared to the task of securing the border).
3)Declare a two year amnesty reporting period. If the illegal does not show up and pay whatever fines and penalties in the two year period then they are subject to immediate deportation.

The linchpin of this plan is enforcement on business because the illegals are here for the money and business is the primary provider.

I am certainly no friend of the IRS and I have been a small businessman all my life. There is an established an well documented way to make businesses "fess up" on this : through the IRS, State taxing authorities and healthcare providers.Those three entities can identify the vast majority of all illegals.

Eric, did you read anything... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Eric, did you read anything I posted yesterday or today?

You know, about what the articles were about and what I was trying to get folks to do?

Or were/are you still so wrapped up in beating someone else over the head that you paid no attention to the point?

I'm with J.R. on this one.D... (Below threshold)
Xennady:

I'm with J.R. on this one.DJ, all you've done is levy a bunch of ridiculous accusations.I don't see how building a fence is a proposal that lacks detail.Or proposing to enforce existing law.As I said earlier, it is very easy to find reasons why you can't do what you don't want to do anyway.Most of the current crop of politicians plainly does not want to secure the border or stop illegal immigration.Hence the endless plaints about all the difficulties and costs a solution will entail.Well, too bad.George Bush made a blunder of historic proportions.If he had backed the fence wholeheartedly last year, likely this year he could have gotten whatever amnesty and guest worker provisions he wanted-and this issue would be well on its way to a solution.But he chose differently, and quite possibly has destroyed the Republican party.Bad choice.

An aside...Scrapiron... (Below threshold)

An aside...
Scrapiron is right about the urgency of this issue:

"As soon as it effects their families they will scream for the gun and bullet solution. Human nature for survival will override the liberal surrender and 'give them everything' attitude. It's on the edge now, one incident will push it over the edge."

Our country must come to a well thought out and effective answer to this problem quickly because we, as a nation are just one or a few "incidents" away from the "gun and bullet solution." I suspect that the Bush administration knows that some elements of the 9/11 attack were made possible by our poor enforcement of the borders (and, yes, I know that the 9/11 criminals were for the most part here legally).

As a country, we have ve... (Below threshold)

As a country, we have very strong child labor law compliance. Using that as a model, a policy of Attrition Through Enforcement is the way to address this problem.

The benefits of the policy are:

1. Existing laws provide all the regulations needed to enforce the policy.
2. The existing Homeland Security and Labor Department infrastructure just has to be scaled up. The Center for Immigration Studies notes:

According to the government's own cost estimates, such a strategy requires an additional investment of less than $2 billion, or $400 million per year - an increase of less than 1 percent of the President's 2007 budget request for the Department of Homeland Security ($42.7 billion).

"Of course. It couldn't ... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

"Of course. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with millions of people breaking the law and some thinking that allowing them to get away with it is foolish and an invitation to more of the same."

Millions of people breaking the law? These are hard-working families for the most part, lured to the United States by employers who want the cheap labor.

No, it's about the color of their skins and the hate in your hearts.

It's no more about "breaking the law" then it was about "homeland security."

At what intervals? 1/2 m... (Below threshold)
Taltos:

At what intervals? 1/2 mile maybe? 24-hour/day monitoring in three shifts makes about 12,000 guards working fulltime just to watch the desert. Do you realize what that would cost? Do you like raised taxes?

Have you ever seen the perimeter security employed around Groom Lake? A rabbit farts and they know about it and can have someone there in a matter of minutes. Setting up the same type of sensor system would be easy.

Millions of people break... (Below threshold)
Taltos:

Millions of people breaking the law? These are hard-working families for the most part, lured to the United States by employers who want the cheap labor.

No, it's about the color of their skins and the hate in your hearts.

Yes, I'm sorry, but when the law requires you to follow certain procedures to come to this country and you don't follow those procedures you're a cirminal.

You just don't get it, you could double or triple the allowable legal immigrants and I wouldn't care in the slightest. As long as people are coming here legally with the full knowledge of the government I'm fine with it. I hate quite a few people, "Mexicans" aren't among them.

LeeWard you've got you own ... (Below threshold)
Xennady:

LeeWard you've got you own Wizbang kiddie site to post at now.Go back there and quit bothering the adults.Shoo!

Apparently DJ you speak in ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Apparently DJ you speak in riddles because no one at this point is able to comprehend exactly what you stand for and the details of the plan that you would employ. You have said that you like Bush's plan, but have been fuzzy on everything else, except for casting aspersions at others' ideas.

So please inform us all again of your detailed plan to address the situation, or is the air from up high on your lofty perch where you cast your judgements effecting your thougth process?

I am puzzled by the demand ... (Below threshold)
TJIT:

I am puzzled by the demand that we do something now and that the status quo is unacceptable.

I would remind people that this bill is a retread of the 1986 amnesty bill with even more give aways for illegal aliens. Passage of the 1986 bill in the effort to do something then got us in the worse position we are now. None of the promised enforcement efforts or sanctions ever showed up. I am pretty certain we will get none of the promised enforcement efforts with this bill either.

What we got with the 1986 amnesty was additional paperwork for employees, and legal residents to deal with. Paperwork illegal aliens promptly short circuited by using forged documents.

To compound the stupidity the US justice department lodged discrimination lawsuits against companies who were diligent in trying to determine the authenticity of the documents they were presented

I supported the 1986 amnesty. Passage of that amnesty made the situation worse and frankly it is stupid to try the same thing again in the cursed effort to "do something".

Furthermore, this bill is a slap in the face to those who are trying to move to the US legally. Becoming naturalized is an expensive, nasty, long process. This bill tells all those folks who followed the rules to go pack sand while we grant citizenship to millions of illegal aliens who broke the law.

DJ Drummond: I think you tr... (Below threshold)

DJ Drummond: I think you tried to smear me on the previous thread, yet you haven't replied to my request for a detailed explanation of what you were trying to say. Please provide it below.

DJ, This quote of yours fro... (Below threshold)
TJIT:

DJ, This quote of yours from the previous thread sums up the problem

The laws on the books for decvades now, no one enforecs them, so what is going to change that?
My question is why on this gods green earth should we pass more legislation if the current immigration statutes are being utterly ignored by the feds?

If they don't enforce it now what in the world makes you think they will enforce the provisions of the new legislation??

At what intervals? 1/2 m... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

At what intervals? 1/2 mile maybe? 24-hour/day monitoring in three shifts makes about 12,000 guards working fulltime just to watch the desert. Do you realize what that would cost? Do you like raised taxes?

Far, far less than the costs to SSI, Medicare, and the Health Service System. But it's not enough to simply put more manpower on the border, if you can't allow them to do their work without being worried about being jailed for shooting a drug dealer who is shooting back at you across the border. Frankly, that's worth $20 million or so a year. Better than the $1 TRILLION hit will we take when the Boomers retire and the current crop of illegals retire without putting in very much into the SSI pot.

Plus, drastically reducing ... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Plus, drastically reducing the numbers of crossings as well as the "migra" doing their jobs and rounding up those who are here and sending them back should help to offset the costs. If I can spot a work-gang at my nearest Home Depot waiting for work, surely the INS can do the same?

By the way, I didn't pull t... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

By the way, I didn't pull the 1 Trillion figure out of my hat, in fact, I lowballed it:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/sr12.cfm

After all, we are not getting primarily college- and doctoral degree graduates here.

You don't think raising ... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

You don't think raising taxes would be necessary? How would you pay for it? A realistic answer, please.

Well, cutting various numbers of programms that Congress pays for that are nothing but pork, for one. Using fines and penalties levied on employers who violate the law. Enforcing limitations on what illegals can get vis-a-vis government services and applying the savings to the cost of the wall. Defund the NEA, we didn't need it before the 60s, and it costs us more and more and does less and less. And a direct tax would be fine IF (and only IF) that tax goes directly to the funding of border security (AND NOTHING ELSE). The last option probably won't happen, but the others could.

If we have the will.

Millions of people break... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Millions of people breaking the law? These are hard-working families for the most part, lured to the United States by employers who want the cheap labor.

Then go after the employers too. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are underreporting their payrolls to save on paying taxes, or downright paying "under the table" and thus paying NO TAXES as all.

No, it's about the color... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

No, it's about the color of their skins and the hate in your hearts.

It's these kind of idiotic comments that causes us to distain your opinions, even if they are valid.

If we were swamped by 30 million lilly-white Canadians crossing the vista illegally, I would apply the same solutions to this as well. And that border is even more unfettered and a lot easier to breech than the one down south.

But we aren't talking about Canadians, who mostly hop over the border for the cheaper booze. :)

Or do you think we shoul... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Or do you think we should all type up 700+ page bills for your considersation?

I want a $10,000 retainer, first.

If Hewitt would put me o... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

If Hewitt would put me on his show, I'd be happy to explain my plan. We both know that will never happen.

Why wait? Give it to us now here. Or, is this similar to John Kerry's secret plan that he planned to share with us...once he was in office, that is.

leticia olalia morales of 1... (Below threshold)
anonymous:

leticia olalia morales of 15501 pasadena ave #8 tustin ca 92780 submitted fake document and paid 5000 dollars to btain a US tourist visa. she also submitted fake employment records to obtain a work visa. she is now applying or citizenship.




Advertisements









rightads.gif

beltwaybloggers.gif

insiderslogo.jpg

mba_blue.gif

Follow Wizbang

Follow Wizbang on FacebookFollow Wizbang on TwitterSubscribe to Wizbang feedWizbang Mobile

Contact

Send e-mail tips to us:

[email protected]

Fresh Links

Credits

Section Editor: Maggie Whitton

Editors: Jay Tea, Lorie Byrd, Kim Priestap, DJ Drummond, Michael Laprarie, Baron Von Ottomatic, Shawn Mallow, Rick, Dan Karipides, Michael Avitablile, Charlie Quidnunc, Steve Schippert

Emeritus: Paul, Mary Katherine Ham, Jim Addison, Alexander K. McClure, Cassy Fiano, Bill Jempty, John Stansbury, Rob Port

In Memorium: HughS

All original content copyright © 2003-2010 by Wizbang®, LLC. All rights reserved. Wizbang® is a registered service mark.

Powered by Movable Type Pro 4.361

Hosting by ServInt

Ratings on this site are powered by the Ajax Ratings Pro plugin for Movable Type.

Search on this site is powered by the FastSearch plugin for Movable Type.

Blogrolls on this site are powered by the MT-Blogroll.

Temporary site design is based on Cutline and Cutline for MT. Graphics by Apothegm Designs.

Author Login



Terms Of Service

DCMA Compliance Notice

Privacy Policy