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Disagree without Destroying Each Other

Friday I linked to an Anchoress post about the tone of the recent debate on immigration. Today at the Examiner I discuss the need for the GOP to learn how to disagree without destroying each other.

There were powerful arguments to be made on the facts, and some did just that. Unfortunately, though, some in the GOP decided the way to succeed was to revert to the tactics they have criticized those on the other side of the aisle for engaging in for so many years. I wonder if they realize how many supporters they risk alienating if they continue down the road of trading accusations like "traitor" and "bigot" in future debates.


I was drawn to the Republican Party as a teenager, and have happily remained a Republican, in large measure due to the tendency among its advocates to argue facts and appeal to logic, rather than solely emotion.

In the case of the recent immigration debate, the public desperately needed facts about the bill and its possible ramifications. In addition to facts, emotion does play an important role in political debate. Passion is what moves the public to call and write their congressmen and to venture out on a rainy day to vote. What too often passed as passion and factual debate on this issue, however, were attacks hurled from those on both sides of the issue.

Read the entire piece at The Examiner.


Mark Tapscott cites polls saying Congressional approval ratings are down for both parties and wonders whether a new party is needed.


Comments (161)

The immigration debate has ... (Below threshold)
kim:

The immigration debate has not been demagogued yet, but it will be.
============================

Shouldn't that be the "IL... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

Shouldn't that be the "ILLEGAL" Immigration debate?

Ya know it's only around 700 Americans that are killed each month at the hands of Illegal Immigrants.

Mark Tapscott cite... (Below threshold)
Mark Tapscott cites polls saying Congressional approval ratings are down for both parties and wonders whether a new party is needed.

Sadly, I think the only party that's likely to gain in such a scenario is the Green Party, and they're unhinged. I'd rather see the Libertarians emerge into a 3rd Party role, but I think they are part of the greater Republican party.

I am not against disagreeme... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

I am not against disagreement, but am against the nasty name-calling ("traitor" and "bigot" come immediately to mind). I am hearing from more and more fellow bloggers who are disengaging from the debate due to the "rip out their throats" approach some are taking to any disagreement whatsoever.

.. but will they listen, Lo... (Below threshold)

.. but will they listen, Lorie? When Conservatives not only use, but embrace the rhetoric we so rightly excoriated and mocked in D-Kos and DU, how does anyone bring them back to sanity and responsible discussion? When they refuse to present solutions and mock those who try to do so, who can get them to understand the damage they do? When an extremist minoriy claims to represent the movement, what will get them to understand that their fanaticism is hurting their own cause?

Here! Here!We need... (Below threshold)

Here! Here!

We need to recognize that labels (particulary those various synonymns for "bigot") are a way to avoid discussing an issue - and never to settle it.

"Mark Tapscott cites po... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"Mark Tapscott cites polls saying Congressional approval ratings are down for both parties and wonders whether a new party is needed."

YES! Or a 3rd, 4th, and 5th would be even better.

"I'd rather see the Libertarians emerge into a 3rd Party role, but I think they are part of the greater Republican party"

Mostly because of pragmatism we choose the lesser of two evils and vote Republican. But the Libertarians have some really wacked out ideas of which they need to rid themselves to become viable nationally.

You wingnuts embrace the "g... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

You wingnuts embrace the "go for throat" bigots and traitors in your midsts when their attacks are aimed at the left -- cheering and goading them on, and piling on as well -- but when their spew is in your face it's "whoa -- let's calm down, that's not constructive."

Seeing the right fracture is a riot.

I'm convinced Soros money h... (Below threshold)
kim:

I'm convinced Soros money has degenerated the left's debate. I'm a little amazed he's not aware of the effect, himself. The love of money is the root of all evil.
================================

I am a conservative first a... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I am a conservative first and foremost. A republican by choice only. I firmly believe in the rule of law applied equally. I, as a born in the USA citizen, have to and do follow all laws whether I agree with them or not. (the seat belt law comes to mind). If the government has ignored people who obviously have broken the law, local governments offering protection and sanctuary for those that break the law, then the system has broken down. When a MAJORITY of americans say secure the border first. It is what it is. We are asking the governement to do what they promised in 1986. Then we can discuss who is hear and how to manage that. Then we discuss cities that openly break the law. Then the federal can talk to the states about the charters of the cities that break the law. No bigot here. Just firm principle. ww

A 'fractured' right is both... (Below threshold)
kim:

A 'fractured' right is both weaker and stronger than a unified left. Kos's stick is thick but only one. The right's fractured mindset is a bundle of sticks.

Please remember, the strength of 'fasces' preceeded Godwin. Don't mistake the metaphor.
===================================

The immigration bill is mor... (Below threshold)
kim:

The immigration bill is more evidence of the Comey/Schumer/McNulty cabal to run the USCIS in violation of the executive powers of the Constitution.

Goodling's testimony about illegals will lead to perjury charges against McNulty in light of his refusal to prosecute illegal aliens in order to increase Democrat voter fraud.

It's Immigration 101
==========================================

Well while it's best not to... (Below threshold)
Nessus:

Well while it's best not to use heated words like "traitor and bigot", the media, pundits and politicians need to realize why, exactly why Americans are worked up on this issue.

It's because we care about the future of our country, our nation. We don't want to see it become a balkanized, multi-lingual economic region. We want to pass onto our children and grandchildren at least some of the best of our customs, traditions and values.

Immigration today is less about normal immigration and more about business'es desire for a continuous, docile, servant class and the ethnic grievance industries' desire to grow in political power.

Finally, the media intentionally blur the terms immigration and illegal immigration. Words matter. Not have "proper documents" IS a big thing - try withdrawing money from a bank without the "proper documents".

wee wee lee lee wardie from... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

wee wee lee lee wardie from the bluie only calls everyone a liar. Back to bluie wardie.

We truly need a viable thir... (Below threshold)
Matt:

We truly need a viable third party. Maybe a fourth party too. We need a political party that the disaffected Republicans can go to. We need a political party the disaffected Democratics can go to. Might be the same party, might not.

The Libertarian party hasn't made a lot of traction over the years for several reasons. One is the fact that on some issues they are to liberal. Another is the fact that on some issues, they are to conservative. Harumph...

Might I suggest the Constitutional Party, or something similar? In order for a new party to be viable they have to have organization, candidates worth voting for and enough money to buy visibility at the state and national level. The money is important if they want to be succesful on the national level in the upcoming elections. THey also have to invest the time in building the party at the grassroots level and getting candidates elected to city, county, and state offices, something the libertarians, greenies, etc have all failed to do. A new party can be built but can't be done without a lot of dedication and hard work.

Lee Ward:You wing... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

Lee Ward:
You wingnuts embrace the "go for throat" bigots and traitors

Funny that you choose to call people "bigot and traitors" in a post condemning people for calling others "bigots and traitors"... not very bright are ya ?

Lee, I clearly remember man... (Below threshold)

Lee, I clearly remember many comments here criticizing the left for what you call "go for the throat" tactics and wishing they'd stop it and act like a viable party. Many comments bemoaning the fact that the only other "real" party sniping at each other was unhealthy for politics or for the people. Now we have both of them acting the fool and all you can come up with is criticism using your own version of the same childish vitriol. Yet you slap the hypocrisy label on others with such abandon.

In case you didn't notice, the same criticism is being applied to the Republicans as was applied to the Democrats. It would behoove you to pay a little closer attention to where you're applying that broad brush of yours. You're painting yourself.

The question, Nessus, is wh... (Below threshold)

The question, Nessus, is whether the majority spoke, or only a vocal, hostile, minority.

The issues are complex, as should be obvious when trying to sort out something involving millions of direct participants and which affects the nation as a whole, to say nothing of the fact that nothing has worked effectively in the entire US history. Any functional solution would, by definition, be complex and unprecedented.

But instead of discussing the considered possibilities, mobs of partisans on each side shouted down the bill, and most Americans got the sense that the bill was bad without any firm reason why. As a resut, we are back to where we were before, and the public needs to be educated about the problems, the causes, and why certain solutions should be undertaken or declined.

Yelling names and insults at people does nothing to resolve the matter. And we must address this matter, because really, the present course choice of do nothing or token effort is headed for true disaster.

And jhow66, you're not help... (Below threshold)

And jhow66, you're not helping either. Instead of just calling names, how about making yourself clear and in adult terms what it is that bothers you. This pee pee and wee wee stuff means what exactly? How about a little substance?

The 10:19 post is a sock-pu... (Below threshold)
kim:

The 10:19 post is a sock-puppet mimicking me.
===========================

It's sophistry I've run int... (Below threshold)
kim:

It's sophistry I've run into before, when refutation fails. It's insidious, but typical.
==================================

Oyster - I don't hesitate t... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

Oyster - I don't hesitate to use the terms "bigot" and "traitor" -- and I haven't suggested otherwise. I just find it humorous when conservatives break ranks and use those terms openly against each other.

All that does is validate the appropriateness of the terms when I use it as well.

And no, it doesn't apply to all conservatives, not even most of them -- it only applies to the bigoted, traitorous ones.

DJ, with all due respect, y... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

DJ, with all due respect, you are calling people on the right who disagree with this bill "extreme, bigots" etc. It is the name calling coming from those that want this bill to pass who are at fault for the vitriol. I am many of my friends oppose this bill and not a one of their oppinions are based on race or bigotry. Being from Texas, we see first hand the mess the government created. And your recommendation is to trust the same government? Not hardly. Secure the border first. If they can prove they have in the future, I am sure a huge majority of americans will discuss what to do with the millions already here. Remember, the name calling is coming from the supporters of this bill. ww

But Lee, You don't... (Below threshold)
U.P. Man:

But Lee,

You don't say who is the bigoted traitors. Only that they are conservatives.

Point to one...

Also, using your logic, can you use the "N" word? Just because some well tanned Americans use it does that mean it is alright for you to use it? I'm sure you would not imply all are but just those that are, are.

Remember eveyone, the gover... (Below threshold)
Nessus:

Remember eveyone, the government doesn't really want to stop the inflow of peasants. I hesitate to use the phrase "secure the border" because as I've said many times before, to politicians that phrase means simply making it legal and orderly for half of Mexico and Central America to come here.

The American people overwhelmingly want the inflow to stop or at least greatly reduced to a tolerable problem and not an invasion. Why do we want it stopped? Mainly I believe for cultural reasons (including language) and the sheer lawlessness of it all. Illegals surely are using fake or stolen ID's, documents, SSAN, driver licenses, etc.

As Pat Buchanan said today - "It is about globalism -- and about greed. And, as the Bible says, love of money is the root of all evil. But they have a problem. The nation has begun to awaken to the reality that the vision of the global corporation and the transnational elite cannot be realized without the death of the American republic. And so they are in a fight that is long overdue."

I would rather go completel... (Below threshold)
jdavenport:

I would rather go completely protectionist.

Buchanan is correct.

I'm not going to say where.... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

I'm not going to say where. .but this should tell you how extreme this gets. . .`

I made a post saying "I agree with most of your arguments about why the bill is bad, and am glad it went down - but I don't like the tone you set, the vitriol and acid directed at anyone that disagrees, the branding of 'heretics' and the excoriating of anyone who doesn't completely mirror their position in every single particular."

The response of most?

"Well if you love illegal immigrants so much!"

Just a complete and absolute inability to even think about considering examining the other points of view with an open mind.

Lee,iInstead of seeing each... (Below threshold)
jdavenport:

Lee,iInstead of seeing each other as ONLY political opponents, perhaps we should come together on this issue.

Illegal immigration empowers Corporatism. We are at an extremely dangerous intersection, and it's time to work together to at least assure the the State is responsive to the people.

agreed, jdavenport - and th... (Below threshold)

agreed, jdavenport - and the President and the Democrats, along with a handful of Republicans, have done exactly that. The movement and compromise needs to come from the bigoted, traitorous side of the argument.

Kim's impersonator, also kn... (Below threshold)

Kim's impersonator, also known as "OB-GYNS sharing their love," has been banned.

Further actions will result in similar results.

Kim, our apologies.

J.

Thanks. I'm glad it was ju... (Below threshold)
kim:

Thanks. I'm glad it was just that idiot. It smelled like a Dementor.
====================================

Lee, the package they are p... (Below threshold)
jdavenport:

Lee, the package they are promoting won't stop the influx. They have no intention of enforcing it or securing the border.

The elites are playing the people against each other.

We need to repeal NAFTA.

Repealing NAFTA isn't going... (Below threshold)

Repealing NAFTA isn't going to happen anytime soon, jdavenport, so it may really, really take compromise on this issue to get the ball rolling, so don't be bringing a basket of other issues to the table.

By the way, you are aware that NAFTA was a Republican initiative, right?

The agreement was initially pursued by conservative governments in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three-nation NAFTA was signed on 17 December 1992, pending its ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries, but in the United States it was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative initiative in 1993. During his presidential campaign he had promised to review the agreement, which he considered inadequate. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House passed NAFTA by 234-200 (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor, 156 Democrats, 43 Republicans, and 1 independent against).[3] and the U.S. Senate passed it by 61-38[4] Finally, Clinton sanctioned the ratification in November of 1993.
Oyster: I reply to him the ... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Oyster: I reply to him the way he comes across to me--as a whining "I am going to take my bat and ball and go home" type. In other words he's always right and everyone else is a liar. It is a waste of time to try to reason with his type so I just make fun of him to get under his skin (which I do). Does that help? Good.

See what I mean by his last... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

See what I mean by his last post?

"The elites are playing ... (Below threshold)

"The elites are playing the people against each other.".

And it needs to be pointed out again that the proponents of the immigration bill are a bipartisan group of Republicans and Democrats which includes President Bush, not some fringe "elitists".

The "fringe" in this issue are the guys like Trancredo -- who is so "fringey" that his rating in the polls is around 1% of the Republicans supporting his candidacy for President.

There's your "fringe" - the 1 percenter who is leading the charge away from compromise.

I take that back -I just checked here and Trancredo's support has fallen UNDER 1%.

Yes, I'm aware NAFTA was a ... (Below threshold)
jdavenport:

Yes, I'm aware NAFTA was a Republican issue.

Certainly, however, it was not a small r republican move. As in helping with the maintainence of a Constitutional Republic.

Big mistake. However, most of the country was against it.

Putting pressure on the whole system by ATTEMPTING to repeal NAFTA with the immigration bill may force a compromise that doesn't suck.

We have to get this thing under control. For me, it's more important than the war. USE THAT Lee.

Most of the people screamin... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

Most of the people screaming "bigot" are allies of GWB...Lindsey Graham at the La Raza rally, what a hypocrite!
I am a conservative who has found that most of the time my interests coincide with the Republican party. On this issue (which is this issue for me) I part company with the majority of the Republican party...who seem to be "its my party, right wrong or indifferent..." If the party continues down this path that "any immigration bill is better than no bill". I would rather not vote for people that stand shoulder to shoulder with Teddy Kennedy. If thats what a Republican vote gets me, I might as well as endorse Stalin. There is nothing worse than Republicans embracing Ted Kennedy...How far will you guys sink in the name of party loyalty????

Exactly Colorado KnightOwl ... (Below threshold)
Nessus:

Exactly Colorado KnightOwl - these blind, party loyalists put party above their nation, their heritage, their culture. How foolish.

Our fathers and grandfathers didn't fight and bleed for one party or the other.

So called Comprehensive Immigration Reform is nothing, repeat, nothing but a way to mask the desire of business to get their hands on tens of millions of poor peasants from Mexico and Central America, under the guise of being "tolerant and diverse". Anyone who does not know by now that at least 70% of the American people are against this continued invasion from across the southern border is either lying or supremely naive.

"If I can't get every singl... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

"If I can't get every single thing I want, I'
ll show them and make sure I get the opposite!"

"We have to get this thi... (Below threshold)

"We have to get this thing under control. For me, it's more important than the war.".

I'd call that a fringe view, not shared by the vast majority of Americans... so I'd say that you've met the enemy, jdavenport - and it like the Colo Owl is on your team as well.

Now, let's see how your fellow Republicans here on Wizbang treat those fringe views of yours -- do they sit by silently and nod -- or do they disagree and explain why... and try to bring you folks into the fold?

That, Colorado Knighthawk, ... (Below threshold)

That, Colorado Knighthawk, is a lie. And a common one.

Just consider the 'reasoned discourse' over at Polipundit.com, with particlar attention to the utter lack of substantive alternatives.

Screaming "Seal the border!" makes you feel good, I'm sure. It also - falsely - implies that no one else wants to do that, and it doesn't do squat to address the real reason it hasn't been done yet.

Comparing American politicians to Stalin, for crying out loud? Pretending the Republican President has "betrayed" (that word was used a lot) you by giving you only 95% of what you demanded, and being consistent all along on this issue, is not extreme?

This tactic is useless for solving problems, and friend, you're in denial to claim you are clean on that count.

I want to emphasize one poi... (Below threshold)

I want to emphasize one point in particular: Both sides have gotten emotional on this issue, but it should also be observed that only one side dared to claim it alone spoke for Conservatives.

Only one side ridiculed our own President with personal insults and slanderous accuastions.

Only one side refused to seriously consider that Reagan and Bush, both Border-State Governors before they were President, might know what they were/are talking about and were/are talking straight about how they see the problem, even if they reach the wrong conclusion or support an ineffective bill.

Only one side said the other had a right to ask questions.

Only one side has thrown writers out of blogs for not agreeing to support a specific position on an issue.

Heck, on another site I app... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Heck, on another site I apparently became a left - winger and a liberal because I dared to question the level of Vitriol being flung around. This from someone who has been a conservative his whole life, and who even agreed with them on the merits and demerits of the bill! Apparently it is necessary that I even agree with their _form of argument_, and if I dare criticize it then I am the "Enemy" - even if the goal I want to reach is the same as theirs!

That, Colorado Knighthawk, ... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

That, Colorado Knighthawk, is a lie. And a common one.

What lie DJ. Bush was just quoted on ABC News as saying that "this bill was better than no bill" BS! A Bad bill is a bad bill, period!

"Screaming "Seal the border!" makes you feel good, I'm sure. It also - falsely - implies that no one else wants to do that, and it doesn't do squat to address the real reason it hasn't been done yet."

By DJ...Again DJ in the last 6 years what can you point to that shows that GWB is serious about securing border???? The congress voted for 800 miles of fence, GWB has built "2 -two miles" in a year..He has said that anyone that crosses the Rio Grand to work here "he welcomes!" His own words. The Minutemen "are vigilantes" his own words...so then he sends the National Guard "UNARMED" to the border and throws into prison two border patrol agents to prison for shooting a drug dealer crossing the border with 700 pounds of Dope...

I am sorry, Stalin was the wrong person...Kennedy wants Socialism not communism. So pick a prominent
Socialist...how about Norm Chomsky??? would that be better DJ????

"Pretending the Republican President has "betrayed" (that word was used a lot) you by giving you only 95% of what you demanded, and being consistent all along on this issue, is not extreme?" by DJ

95% 95%...Where in heaven's name do you get anywhere close to 95%??? Amnesty, the "family unification" that allows up to 80 million more people to come here? 370 miles of fence versus the 800 approved last year? This bill BRINGS MILLIONS more people into the country...My point and the point of most conservatives DJ is that the government is NOT serious about enforcement. They could demonstrate that to us by simply enforcing the laws on the books now...BUT THEY DON"T and now you want me to believe that GWB is giving me 95% of everything I want....Just enforce the laws already on the books, then I might believe he is serious...Until then its lipstick on a big hog!

Oh, and DJ. .you have plent... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Oh, and DJ. .you have plenty of people that followed you right out the door.

COlorado:So now im... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

COlorado:

So now immigration is the ONLY issue that exists on the books? Interesting.

Phyllis Schlafly put... (Below threshold)
Nessus:


Phyllis Schlafly put it wonderfully today in a column mostly about appalling public school education and how illegal immigrants play a big role in the problem. Here's her last words of the column.

"What our own high school dropouts need is a job so they can get started building a life. Instead of rewarding illegal immigrants with a "Z visa" to enable them to hold a job legally, Spellings should ask the Senate to authorize a "Z diploma" to encourage U.S. businesses to hire our own high school dropouts.

The primary result of the Senate immigration bill will be to provide corporations with more high school dropouts, and that's exactly what the United States does not need. Secretary Spellings, when you phone President Bush, maybe he will answer if you press 2 for Spanish."

Only one side DJ?Wou... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

Only one side DJ?
Would that be GWB saying that those who disagreed "didn't want was right for America"?
Would that be Graham at a meeting of The Race saying that he "would tell the bigots to shut up"?
Would that be Graham on the Senate floor saying that he "wouldn't listen to the LOUD People"?

So it is actually the leaders/friends of the La Raza party that are calling the names...

Lee, are you going to try t... (Below threshold)
jdavenport:

Lee, are you going to try to put pressure on the system to control the borders, or not?

You decide. I just made my argument, and gave you a tool to use.

You decide. I can't decide for you. But make no mistake that the current bill will do nothing to help control the situation.

Maybe the GOP base could st... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

Maybe the GOP base could start by not calling the President a racist or sexist or mysogynist or bigoted or cruel or ignorant or hate-filled or...oh wait.....the GOP base DIDN'T call Bush that! That's what Bush called the GOP base!

Sorry but the damage has been done. The truth is the GOP has for the last 20-30 years been a marriage of populists, constitutionalists and conservatives with the pro-business Rockefeller-Bush wing.

Unfortunately the Rockefeller-Bush wing has decided to tell the populists/constitutionalists/conservatives to take a hike.

And they are.

Bye-bye GOP!

. . says Colorado as he cal... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

. . says Colorado as he calls 'The opposition' the 'La Raza party'.

DJ and others, securing the... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

DJ and others, securing the border is in the 1986 bill that was passed. What is this one going to say: "we really, really mean it this time." That is what the secure the border first people are saying. The government already got an immigration bill that they ignored. There is no comparison, but analogous: We invaded Iraq because one of the issues was Saddam did not adhere to the treaty he signed in 1991 so in 2003 we invaded. Well, why don't we hold our representatives to the bill they passed twenty years ago? And again, why no committee bill, or hearings? Why secret back room deals? Honest questions. ww

SO Kasper - how happy are y... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

SO Kasper - how happy are you going to be with your new Democratic overlords?

Exactly, Ryan. Note that W... (Below threshold)

Exactly, Ryan. Note that Wildwillie said I was attacking anyone who did not support the bill. He forgets that I, too, opposed the bill. I saw no enforcement provisions in it and said so from the start. But I was not acceptable, simply because I found it out-of-bounds to claim that President Bush was deliberately working to undermine secure borders, or that the people supporting the bill somehow must oppose secure borders. And it's not new.

I have not gone to that dead horse for a long time, but Lorie, A.K, Jayson and I were booted out of Polipundit last year, specifically because we did not agree to agree with whatever the site owner said about Immigration. Even agreeing with the guy wasn't enough, you had to hate people the way he did, even on your own side, and you had to mimic the same character assassinations.

I'm not talking about people who got mad and popped off; I have been guilty of the same thing. But there are people who have, quite deliberately, lied about what the President and some Republicans are trying to do, they have made attacks without once suggesting cogent alternatives, and when called on it they turn on anybody who dares to point out the similarity between their tactics and the extreme Left's.

Sorry Wildwillie, but you are wrong. First, I have not used the word "bigot", nor have I seen that used in these debates - it's a false charge. And sorry to have to say it, but yes, character assasination of the President is extreme, and so is shouting down the only people trying to find a solution.

So now immigration is the O... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

So now immigration is the ONLY issue that exists on the books? Interesting.
Posted by: Ryan

Ryan, it is the most important issue to me. I was a police officer for 27 years in Southern California. That is now 64% foreign born. They elected as mayor a member of La Raza, Villarogosa.

Day laborers stand on the street corners and in front of people's homes looking for work...You know, the work we won't do...Except that there are no bathrooms or trash cans on these street corners and sidewalks...so I got hundreds of calls from residents that couldn't let their children out to play in the front yards...I got calls from women who couldn't walk down the sidewalk without catcalls, pinching and leering at them.
I saw my city council go from 5 American born citizens to 3 out of 5 born in the former Soviet Union...They fly the Armenian flag in Glendale,CA...They fly the Mexican flag there too..
If you let in millions of new foreign born people who are NOT assimilating, then what made America, America...will be gone and you won't get it back...
Thats why this issue is more important to me than taxes, GWOT,...it is the war...

"When they refuse to presen... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

"When they refuse to present solutions and mock those who try to do so,"

TYPICAL CONVERSATION WITH D.J. DRUMMOND (aka McCain. Bush, Graham)

D.J.: "Well what's your solution?"

GOP Base: "Enforce the current laws against border-crossers and employers. Then, once the border is relatively secure and the government has demonstrated its willingness to enforce our laws, we can talk about residency for those already here."

D.J.: "Well what's your solution?"

GOP Base: "We already explained that. Enforce the current laws against border-crossers and employers. Then, once the border is relatively secure and the government has demonstrated its willingness to enforce our laws, we can talk about residency for those already here."

D.J.: "Well what's your solution?"

GOP Base: "Sheesh! What's the point...."


D.J.: "See! You don't want to talk about a solution! You are just a bigot and a vigillante. we are not going to let a minority of 70% or 80% of the population run roughshod over this issue!"

Colorado:Even if i... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Colorado:

Even if its the most important thing, to you, you act as if it is the ONLY thing.

"how happy are you going to... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

"how happy are you going to be with your new Democratic overlords?'

_________________

Oh no! Government might grow to an unprecedented size! They might start some huge and inefficient Federal program to pay for peoples prescription drugs. They might run up deficits or give the Department of Education a key role in local schools. What if they start a war in some foreign country and occupy it indefinately? They might even tie the hands of our troops with silly rules of engagement and second-guessing court marshalls

How could we survive such a scenario?

You're doing it again, Kasp... (Below threshold)

You're doing it again, Kasper. I'm sure strawmen are fun to play with, but let's get real.

Kasper, pretending to be the base: "Enforce the current laws against border-crossers and employers. Then, once the border is relatively secure and the government has demonstrated its willingness to enforce our laws, we can talk about residency for those already here."

DJD: "Sure, that's a great goal, I want it too. But it has not happened. Can you tell me what we need to do, specifically, to make that happen?"

Kasper: repeats goals, ignores question

Kasper then pretends DJD has called him a "bigot and a vigillante", and pretends he speaks for "70% or 80% of the population" simply because he feels better about spewing names and lying about what's being discussed, if he can feel like he's got a mob behind him.

Sheesh.

DJ you say that no one has ... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

DJ you say that no one has used the "bigot" term?

www.youtube.com/v/5sEfrFoAIn4

Watch Lindsey Graham, the president's point man on immigration speaking to La Raza in Wash DC...

He says that being an "American" is just an idea. That those that oppose are bigots...

Kasper, if you think there ... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Kasper, if you think there would be no difference between having president Bush and Hillary Clinton as president, then you are truly lost.

. .yes, I'm sure you can fi... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

. .yes, I'm sure you can find anecdotes, Colorado> Very good at you. Does yelling "Well they do it to!" make you right somehow? Even if it WERE true?

Wildwillie, can you tell me... (Below threshold)

Wildwillie, can you tell me what, specifically, prevented the 1986 border provisions from being successful? I hope you will at least agree that Reagan was not some Reconquista advocate or traitor to America, the way Dubys gets blasted.

And by the way, has it occurred to you that at least for now, you need the President more than he needs you? How would you feel if you had worked first-hand on an issue for two decades, only to be smeared as a "traitor" by folks who do not bother to look at the details, the forces at work with agendae of their own, and hwo offer no functional alternative, but instead offer only insults and anger? What do you expect he would do and say?

Ryan:"Even if its ... (Below threshold)
jdavenport:

Ryan:

"Even if its the most important thing, to you, you act as if it is the ONLY thing."

I think securing the borders is a lever that will help correct a miriad of international power problems.

It changes the corporate machine from one that tries to undermine the sovereighty of both the US and foreign governments to one that promotes the rule of law in order to secure their patent rights and such.

The only way corporations can secure that is by respecting sovereign governments.

Colorado:Even if i... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

Colorado:

Even if its the most important thing, to you, you act as if it is the ONLY thing.
Posted by: Ryan

I believe it is the ONLY thing. If we lose this issue, then NONE of the others matter.

Read "America Alone" by Mark Steyn...

If we lose this issue and millions of people are allowed in...it won't matter who appoints the judges...this will be a de-facto Socialist country. in Great Britain, the number 1 given to bay boys this year is "Jack", #2 is Mohammed. Mohammed should overtake Jack by November according to their census bureau...It is happening here now

Build the fence.En... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

Build the fence.

Enforce the border with guards and troops.

End "catch and release" TODAY!

Imprison repeat offenders.

Deport anyone who commits any crime who is illegal.

Arrest and/or fine anyone who employs illegals and allow employers to question legal status without the threat of "discrimination lawsuits.

Tell Mexico to police their side of the border or we'll come over there and police it for them.

That's the plan D.J. And it WILL work.

Bush prosecuted or fined a total of 4 employers last year for immigration violation. 4!

Bush has violated his oath to uphold and enforce our laws and should be impeached!

(And I voted for him both in 2000 and 2004!)

COlorado, Davenport:<... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

COlorado, Davenport:

Tell me how you are better served by having Hillary and Democrats more firmly in charge who won't even pretend to offer a figleaf if border security? And if both parties fail you on your most important issue then you MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE.

"Wildwillie, can you tell m... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hasuer:

"Wildwillie, can you tell me what, specifically, prevented the 1986 border provisions from being successful?"

YES! GEORGE HW BUSH REFUSED TO ENFORCE ANY OF THEM! AS DID CLINTON AND AS DID BUSH'S SON!

Business wants open borders and the Country be damned!

Knightowl, Kasper specifica... (Below threshold)

Knightowl, Kasper specifically and directly acccused me of using the words "bigot" and "vigilante".

Show me where I ever did that, or tell Kasper to eat that insult.

I don't think Graham was right to say that, but you can't say his buttons were not pushed, and you have ignored the focus of my complaint - the extremists are not trying to solve the problem, they are just attacking people.

One wonders; if a certain g... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

One wonders; if a certain group had not had a little tantrum last year and stayed home, thus giving democrats either control or larger control. .might the bill that came out have been les to your disliking to begin with? Might the people you agree with be in a better position to get leverage to change it. Hmm.

Does yelling "Well they do ... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

Does yelling "Well they do it to!" make you right somehow? Even if it WERE true?
Posted by: Ryan

Why does the president tell his base that we don't want what's right for America when Ted Kennedy can call the prez a liar...Kennedy gets invited to the WH to help write immigration bill...When Harry Reid calls GWB a "loser"...he gets invited to the WH...
Graham and McCain call us "bigots" the people that voted for them...we would have more clout if we called the president names just Teddy does..

"And if both parties fail y... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

"And if both parties fail you on your most important issue then you MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ISSUE"

Or you form a party or coalition to address the issue. There is no reason we need to have a GOP is it is nothing but a pro-big money version of the Democratic Party (which it apparently is.)

AH, so now you are proudly ... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

AH, so now you are proudly associated with Ted Kennedy and Harry Reid?

Answer the question: How does saying that someone else does it justify it in you?


Kasper, I pointed out 2 spe... (Below threshold)

Kasper, I pointed out 2 specific insults you levelled at me. I deny ever calling folks "bigots" or "vigilantes".

Prove where I did, or eat that claim.

As for the rest of your bilge, dude, you're just getting to be unbalanced. You're like the posting spirit of Howard Dean, just pretending to be a Conservative so you can cause trouble.

Kaspar. .if you think you a... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Kaspar. .if you think you are going to get a third party in a position of power, you are also delusional. How many times have people said this and how many times does it fail? YAWN.

Ryan:My propositio... (Below threshold)
jdavenport:

Ryan:

My proposition is to attempt to repeal NAFTA.

I thinks that is the only way to get the beast under control - for any of us. STOP THIS BILL.

. .and what makes you think... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

. .and what makes you think a repeal of NAFTA will do anything?

DJ--As indicated, I used yo... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hasuer:

DJ--As indicated, I used you as an amalgam of the GOP elite establishment-And the GOP establish has called it's base that many, many times.

And you have been disingenuious--no that's not fair--you have outright lied in your defense of this biil. For instance, you said:

"But instead of discussing the considered possibilities, mobs of partisans on each side shouted down the bill"

No D.J. The Bill conferees wrote the bill IN SECRET and said there would be no debate. When we tried to force Debate the Bill was withdrawn. And you know it.


the extremists are not tryi... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

the extremists are not trying to solve the problem, they are just attacking people.
Posted by: DJ Drummond

To us DJ, the problem is simple. Enforce existing law. If they can't or won't do that why should believe that they are serious? When we say don't pass new legislation that actually makes things worse, just secure the border they call us loud or stupid or whatever...It seems to many of us, that the President would rather listen to Teddy Kennedy or Lindsey Graham...

We do think this is simple, demonstrate to us that you are serious about securing the border and then all things are possible..

I'm curious, Jdavenport - h... (Below threshold)

I'm curious, Jdavenport - how exactly does repealing NAFTA seal the border? And how would we get the Donks on board, seeing as they are the majority in Congress?

No> At that point, the gro... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

No> At that point, the group will go on to demanding complete and slavish obedience on the NEXT issue, or THIS time they will abandon them completely. It happened before; witness the vitriol in the Harriet Meirs and Dubai issues.

I see no reason to think the same people won;t do the same thing again the next time their politician dares to disagree with them on anything.

If you are right--if we hav... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

If you are right--if we have given power over to the elites of two parties that divide and distribute the spoils amongst themselves and refuse to heed or obey the will of the people, then this experiment has failed and we need to tear it down and start anew.

I'm not there yet, but the way this bill is being ramrodded down our throats makes me wonder how far away that is.

Knightowl, I keep explainin... (Below threshold)

Knightowl, I keep explaining that I like that goal, but I am asking you to explain how you figure to do that? Do you think wishing really hard is going to make it happen?

I have said before that the problems with existing law are

1) Interference between local and federal law enforcement

2) No fund allocation for key resourecs, like incarceration of captured aliens

3) The annoying habit of Congress to make new law so they can put their name on something and call it "leadership", rather than admitting a mistake and fixing it. That was one reason I opposed the last bil - it had a few good things in it, but it had a lot more holes and errors, and I knew they would be easier to block now than hope to get fixed later.

Frankly, I don't see a solution with a Donkey Kong Congress. The solution begins, therefore, with getting the GOP in control of Congress, which will not happen with part of the party accusing the other of every kind of moral crime. So the first step is for the screamers to stop the tantrum, grow up, and start working with other Republicans.

I ask you again, what - specifically - do you propose, to accomplish this fine goal of enforcing existing law? Bear in mind that if you want it in 2007-8, it would have to fly past a Donkey Kongress without getting shredded intro something unrecognizable beyond the title.

To 2:01 - Sorry Kasper, you... (Below threshold)

To 2:01 - Sorry Kasper, you got caught lying about me, and everyone here knows it. I've got my flaws, but I officially now can call you "liar" and be able to prove it.

You're busted, Kasper. As a liar and as a thug. Hope you like those tags, 'cause you went out and earned them.

DJ--All those excuses for n... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

DJ--All those excuses for not enforcing the law are just that---Excuses. If Bush wanted to enforce the law and keep out illegals he could EASILY do so. But you can't do something if you don't want to do it. And when someone who is supposed to do a job doesn't try and instead comes up with excuses for not doing it, it is time to get rid of that person.

And I think you are lying again. You don't share that goal. You oppose it with every word and every post here and Wizbang.

You know you do and everyone here know it too!

Hey DJ. I never liked you ... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hasuer:

Hey DJ. I never liked you over at Polipundit either!

And here comes the next par... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

And here comes the next part of the Paranoia. "If he's telling the truth, it makes me look unreasonable. . I can't have that so. .um. . he must be lying!"

And tell me, how do you think you will accomplish any of your goals with a Democratic House, a Democratic Senate, and Hillary in office, none of which you would have even the slightest chance of influencing. I'm still waiting. Yelling and making baseless accusations isn't going to get the job done, however much you might like it.

Yes Kasper. Too free think... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Yes Kasper. Too free thinking for you. Wouldn't just always shut up, accept every letter of the orthodoxy, and get in line.

I guess this thread proves ... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

I guess this thread proves that I was right about the current level of discourse in the party. I wish I were not. For those who followed the link and read the column, you know the piece was not on immigration, but on the way it was debated over the past few weeks. There are other issues that have been similarly contentious, but that was just the most recent one so it was the one I referenced.

Thanks Jay, for cleaning up the thread. I have been with the girls all day (they are out of school now) and hadn't checked in for a few hours.

The Solution:_______... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

The Solution:
___________________
Dear Mr. President:

We respectfully ask that your Administration enforce the border security laws that have already been authorized by Congress regardless of whether the Senate passes the immigration reform bill. The bill assumes that several critical border security benchmarks can be achieved within 18 months. These security triggers are already authorized under current law and can be completed without the immigration bill. We believe these enforcement measures are vital and should not wait until Congress passes additional immigration reforms.

Securing the border is the best way to restore trust with the American people and facilitate future improvements of our immigration policy.

Sincerely,

U.S. Senators Jim DeMint (R - South Carolina), Tom Coburn (R - Oklahoma), Mike Enzi (R - Wyoming), David Vitter (R - Louisiana), Jim Inhofe (R - Oklahoma), Jim Bunning (R - Kentucky), Charles Grassley (R - Iowa), John Ensign (R - Nevada) and Jeff Sessions (R - Alabama).
__________________

You can read all about it over at Polipundit--which has come up in the world the last few years while this blogspot has, regrettably, declined....for some reason!

It's pretty clear that ther... (Below threshold)

It's pretty clear that there isn't going to be an immigration bill passed in this Congress. Those opposed to any sort of normalization program for illegals will not compromise. Those who support a general and lenient program won't talk either.

In the meantime, the problem just gets worse. Kennedy and McCain did the nation no service by circumventing the normal congressional process of committee hearings and amendments, crafting the bill behind closed doors and then attempting to railroad it through before many people could even read the darned thing. If the well for reform wasn't poisoned before, it most likely is now.

Naturally, the "third party" talk is nonsense. The only way to build a viable national party in America is through the ground up, starting at the local and state level. That's the pattern for becoming a real party, the one followed by the only successful "start-up" parties, the Whigs and the Republicans.

It's worth noting the Whigs arose in a time where power was diffused, the Democratic-Republicans having fractured into factions upon the demise of the Federalists. The Republicans supplanted the Whigs. No other nationally competitive party has been born since.

Oh, there have been competitive (or at least strong enough to demand notice) "third party" candidates for President: TR's Bullmoose Party, Thurmond and the Dixiecrats, Wallace's American Independents, and Perot's Reform Party, but all were based on the personality of their founder/candidates, and all withered away rather quickly after the presidential campaigns.

Libertarians have been trying for over three decades, and still only polled as high as 1% of the national vote ONCE, never again to win half that much. Oh, they'll trumpet their "local officeholders," but it's a constable here and a sewer commissioner there - offices where ideology and party aren't very important. When party affiliation counts in a race, voters run from the LP in landslide numbers.

Thats funny. Wizbang is nu... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Thats funny. Wizbang is number thirty in the Ecosystem ratings. .where exactly is Polipundit?

298?

And that letter has one thing YOU lack; its polite - its an attempt to wrok WITH not destroy. .so its a particularly BAD example for you to use.

I'd like everyone to take a... (Below threshold)

I'd like everyone to take a moment, and look at the posts by our thug-liar Kasper. Since the thread started, here are some of his claims:

"Maybe the GOP base could start by not calling the President a racist or sexist or mysogynist or bigoted or cruel or ignorant or hate-filled or...oh wait.....the GOP base DIDN'T call Bush that! That's what Bush called the GOP base!"

Name-calling and empty lies from the start. Sound like a rational position to you?


"D.J.: "See! You don't want to talk about a solution! You are just a bigot and a vigillante. we are not going to let a minority of 70% or 80% of the population run roughshod over this issue!"

Here he lies about what I have said, and lies about me calling people "bigot" or "vigilante".


"Bush has violated his oath to uphold and
enforce our laws and should be impeached!"

Doesn't that sound just a bit Michael-Mooreish? It certainly is neither rational, nor supported by facts.


" There is no reason we need to have a GOP is it is nothing but a pro-big money version of the Democratic Party (which it apparently is.)"

Another statement difficult to reconcile with a considered analysis, and certainly not much of a Conservative, if he thinks GOP=Donkey. Rather a poser, actually ...


"you have outright lied in your defense of this biil. "

Considering I opposed the bill, that's a pretty obvious lie by thug-boy Kasper.


"If Bush wanted to enforce the law and keep out illegals he could EASILY do so"

Again with the notion that Bush could just wish things into existence, and yet another statement that I have read before from Kos-ites.


Think about it. Is this guy someone you want to represent your position on this issue? is what he says helping reach consensus, or does it read like a nasty poser trying to drive conservatives apart?

The answer seems obvious to me.

Or would you prefer traffic... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Or would you prefer traffic instead of links: 189 for Wizbang. . .432 on Polipundit. Going to have to move up QUITE a bit to make up the distance.

But see, when they can't ar... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

But see, when they can't argue effectively against your real argument, they try to create a new argument so they can knock it down. I believe it is called a "Straw Man' Argument.

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted."

from NRO today....Mi... (Below threshold)
Nessus:

from NRO today....
Michael Radu is a senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute.

"To begin with Mexicans, who are the largest number by far, a huge majority are unskilled, many illiterate, and, considering the last decade's shif in their geographical origin southward, from the central states to Chiapas and Oaxaca, many are speaking poor Spanish and are illiterate in that language as well. To pretend that we could assimilate them when Mexico failed to do so in centuries is delusional. All this without even mentioning the fact that, from primary school on children in Mexico are indoctrinated in hostility to the United States (the greenback excepted).

While the Mexican illegal aliens bring with them poverty and an innate hostility to government and rule of law (and government and all laws) -- as anyone who knows Mexico could testify, Salvadorans, although probably the best workers south of the borders, bring a historic tradition of extreme violence -- as the huge gangs they populate in California and Washington abundantly demonstrate."

Interesting post, but it ha... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Interesting post, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No one here is supporting the immigration bill. So try something relevant?

Nessus, I hate to break it ... (Below threshold)

Nessus, I hate to break it to you man, but - we already agree the issue of Illegals is important. It also does not happen to be the issue under discussion here. We are discussing how Conservatives have treated others with differing opinions on the Illegals issue.

Could you answer my 2:30 question, about whether someone like Kasper sends the kind of message you think is useful and productive, or rather it is spiteful and hurts everyone?

Thanks.

"In the meantime, the probl... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

"In the meantime, the problem just gets worse. Kennedy and McCain did the nation no service by circumventing the normal congressional process of committee hearings and amendments, crafting the bill behind closed doors and then attempting to railroad it through before many people could even read the darned thing. If the well for reform wasn't poisoned before...."

____________

I think that pretty much sums it up.

Kasper = Howard Dean.... (Below threshold)

Kasper = Howard Dean.

Just remember that, folks.

DJ, you keep using the same... (Below threshold)

DJ, you keep using the same strawman, and it's making my teeth hurt. Please stop. When I say enforce the existing law, what I'm asking for needs no further action from Congress. You keep saying the Dems won't approve it. They don't have to. It's already the law. The budget for enforcement is already in place.

After any law is passed it falls to the Executive branch to carry it out. What I'm wanting is for President Bush to get serious about doing just that. I want him to issue an executive order that the current law is to be enforced. ie: That employers will no longer receive three days notice prior to having their workplace and records inspected. That illegals arrested for violating other laws (like DUI) will be deported immediately. That the entry/exit system already tested be expanded to catch those who overstay valid visas. Etc.

None of these steps require anything from Congress at all. They've already pulled the trigger. But ICE under Bush is blocking the muzzle, and I want them to move out of the way. Now to answer one of your objections in advance, this isn't a real world solution. It won't happen because the President doesn't want it to happen. I believe he is sincere and well-intentioned...and fatally wrong. He needs to be encouraged--rationally, rather than by insult--to change his mind.

"You can read all about it ... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

"You can read all about it over at Polipundit--which has come up in the world the last few years while this blogspot has, regrettably, declined....for some reason!" -- Kasper

Then why are you here Kasper? Life is short. Don't make yourself miserable. That is certainly my philosophy now. I am so over all the drama. I want to hear discussion of the facts and possible solutions, not hissy fits and temper tantrums and contests over who can call the other the worst names -- and that has happened on both sides of this issue, as well as other issues.

The blowup at Polipundit happened just over 1 year ago. It was May 16, my wedding anniversary, to be exact. I joined Polipundit in April of 2004 and was there for just over two years. During that time traffic there increased about 10 fold. I don't know what it is today. Until the site got really nasty near the end, I enjoyed my time there and was very thankful for the opportunity given to me to blog there. I am incredibly thankful for the opportunity to be a part of Wizbang now. Every site is a little different and I like to go to the ones where I am most comfortable and find the most stimulating conversation. Others seem to like to visit sites that provide the most conflict. Hey, whatever floats your boat, but don't come here and then complain that you don't like it. It's not like you are being held at gunpoint. At least I hope that is not the case.

Watchman, I already address... (Below threshold)

Watchman, I already addressed this in my 2:11 comment.

Lorie, wow, MY wedding anniversary is 5/16! Mikki and I just passed our 10 year anniversary!

"Kasper = Howard Dean."... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

"Kasper = Howard Dean."

Yeeeaaarrrrrghhhhhhh!

BTW D.J. Happy anniversary to you and your lovely wife Mikki, who I assume is here in the states illegally

;)

"Then why are you here Kasp... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

"Then why are you here Kasper?"


Uhmmmm....because I had too much coffee this morning and I want to get it all out here before I go home to the wife and kids????

Well, I just re-read your 2... (Below threshold)

Well, I just re-read your 2:11 and you twice reference getting things through a Dem-controlled Congress--the very strawman I'm complaining about. Not sure how that actually addresses my point, which is that the bottleneck is Executive rather than Legislative at this point.

Is it your contention that President Bush has done everything possible through the Executive branch to enforce our existing laws?

btw, the name was an early ... (Below threshold)

btw, the name was an early clue that our friend "Kasper" is not genuine:

The original Kasper Hauser was a "feral child", found wandering in Nuremberg in 1828.

http://www.feralchildren.com/en/showchild.php?ch=kaspar


More rhetoric, watchman? I... (Below threshold)

More rhetoric, watchman? I disagree with your claim, especially the rather arrogant yet much-repeated insult that President Bush somehow does not "want" our laws to work.

No one ever seems able to support that charge, yet it gets thrown out all the same. I'd like to discuss the issue, not have to revisit endless smears against the President.

Please stop with the cheap shots, it really does not improve the quality of the discussion, OK?

You don't like him, we get it. But making the thread sound like a DNC chat room does nothing to find solutions.

"Feral?" A "Child?"<... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

"Feral?" A "Child?"

Who's calling people names now Drummond?

So I had a rough childhood! Why don't you address my points instead of attacking my upbringing?

And for the record, Kasper.... (Below threshold)

And for the record, Kasper. My wife has been a U.S. citizen longer than you have been out of diapers. Assuming, of course, that you managed that accomplishment.

What points, Kasper? Insul... (Below threshold)

What points, Kasper? Insults and unsupported claims hardly deserve inspection, much less consideration.

It's just satisfying to tho... (Below threshold)
Nessus:

It's just satisfying to those of us who aren't neo-cons, that is, liberal republicans, that is, Bushbots, that is devotees of the lawn dwarf aka Carlo Rove and his puppet Jorge Arbusto.

Seriously boys, there is nothing to discuss. Just pee'ing into the wind. THE APPROPRIATE PUNISHMENT FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS DEPORTATION.

Everything else is just weasel words. "Comprehensive Immigation Reform" is just a fancy way to pretend to enforce the border while bringing tens of millions of Mestizo here as "temporary" workers.

That's why a few mainstream commentators have recently come out with opinions expressing that the USA should either STOP or greatly reduce LEGAL immigration for a period of ten years or so. Hmmmm, Medved's favorite Tom Tancredo isn't so kooky now is he, Medved? LOL

I completely disagree that ... (Below threshold)

I completely disagree that I have taken cheap shots either at you or the President. I did accuse you of using a strawman point, and I stand by that characterization.

Again I ask you a simple question: Has President Bush actively and diligently done all that he could to enforce existing immigration law through the branch of government that answers to him?

I voted for him twice. I don't dislike him. I disagree with him.

Your first line says it all... (Below threshold)

Your first line says it all, Nessus. If someone doesn't think exactly as you do, you will dismiss them and insult them and defame them.

Honest, I will give you that.

Disgusting and short-sighted, but honest.

"Again I ask you a simple q... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hasuer:

"Again I ask you a simple question: Has President Bush actively and diligently done all that he could to enforce existing immigration law through the branch of government that answers to him?"

______________________

Since D.J. won't answer, I will.

No. Border enforcement and work place enforcement under Bush has been somewhere between minimal and non-existent.

We have 12,000,000 to 20,000,000 illegals in this country working and last year the Bush Adminstration took enforcement actions against a total of four (4!) companies that employed illegals.

The reason we don't trust Bush and the GOP leadership on this issue is because they are not trustworthy. They need our votes, but they are bought and paid for by business interests who want cheap (close to slave) labor.

Look up the word, watchman.... (Below threshold)

Look up the word, watchman. You either don't understand "strawman", or else you just being ornery because you don't want to really seek a solution.

I'm talking about the problem, while you are attacking the President.

Why is that?

Kasper is a proven liar. A... (Below threshold)

Kasper is a proven liar. Ask yourself, why does he post nothing but lies and attacks?

I would just like to point ... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

I would just like to point out that the person who wrote the following quotes about what he calls "fellow conservatives" is actually acting as if he's all clean on this subject.
Mafia tactics
in relation to unhappiness with the Harriet Meiers nomination.

the smear tactic and but is instead barking like a mad dog about the illegal immigration debate

Only a very dishonest person or a moron about "out of control spending"

the self-anointed "base" whine that they are being attacked because we didn't like being told we were not looking for what was good for America by Bush.

And my favorite that he uses for people who disagree with him
The key to all of this, is that the self-impressed "base" are not elected, they are not accountable, and they do not even pretend that they have a better, specific, plan. They just feel like trashing the folks who are doing the real work, and that's pathetic.

as he ignores that "the so-called base" wants enforcement at the borders and pretends that we just wanted a hissy fit at Bush.


Physician, heal thyself.

Alternatively, DJ, look at the beam in your eye before you start talking about motes and look like an idiot.

The actual reason I am here... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

The actual reason I am here?

Because unless we scream and make a lot of noise the Republican Nomenklatura will not understand that they get this amnesty without enforcement--they're hearts desire--at a cost; the loss of their party and their party's power now and forever.


Nice ,Veeshir. And your cl... (Below threshold)

Nice ,Veeshir. And your claims do what, precisely, to find a solution?

Oh yes, of course. Everyone must surrender to your opinion.

How 'inclusive'.

I think D.J. has well demon... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

I think D.J. has well demonstrated that my hypothetical conversation posted at 1:237 was right on the money.

LOL, rather the opposite, K... (Below threshold)

LOL, rather the opposite, Kasper/Dean

The problem, veshir. .is th... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

The problem, veshir. .is that you ARE doing those things(This is the plural you, not you specifically)

And what will you do when your tantrums make there be a Democratic house, Senate AND presidency> Then you will fume all you want without the slightest chance of even influencing the debate, But I guess it will be okay because you are 'ideologically pure'

DJ, you will be hard presse... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

DJ, you will be hard pressed to find a bigger supporter of GW then I am. The solution is simple as I stated. Just enforce the existing border and immigration law. Go after companies that hire illegals. Go after states that allow their cities to have sanctuary laws.

Happy belated anniversery. My wife and I just celebrated 32 years on June 7th. Still kids at heart. ww

Again, WW, those are great ... (Below threshold)

Again, WW, those are great GOALS. How do you plan to make them happen?

It's like saying you reduce crime by arresting crooks. Sure, but all that does is rephrase a general goal to a more specific goal. Good, but not really the answer.

The problem is not the President. Yes, he was wrong on this bill so was Reagan in '86, (the difference is no one thinks it's OK to call Ronnie a traitor), but in terms of enforcing the existing law, punishing companies which hire illegals, and building that fence, when you look at the detais you find out the problem is LOCAL, not federal. No, that's not saying the locals fo not want to do anything. I mean, of course we ae having problems with local governments which defy federal law, but more often the problem is logistics and communication, not legislation. That's just one reason why all the Bush-hate is wrong. It not only blames the President for things which are plainly NOT his fault, it misses the things we can and should be doing to get the issue moving towards solution.

... and congrats on #32! H... (Below threshold)

... and congrats on #32! Hey, I married late, but at least I got a great woman!

Now that's funny, you resp... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

Now that's funny, you respond by attacking me instead of responding to what I wrote.

Thanks for proving my point without a lot of back and forth required.

I wasn't trying to find a solution or even point one out, I was pointing out that you are one of the proponents of the attack style you're decrying.

Oh yes, of course. Everyone must surrender to your opinion.
How 'inclusive'
And where did anything I wrote call for that response? Where have I ever even implied that anybody must "surrender to my opinion"? C'mon DJ, how about a link to show that I demand that all bow to my opinion. That looks like a little projection to me, you are the one who said that we should walk in lockstep and keep our pie-holes shut.

I try to live what you are preaching.
I try not to question motives or call names, I try to respond to what is said. But by all means, attack me with stuff that is the product of your imagination, it'll show others that they should listen to you.

I know exactly what a straw... (Below threshold)

I know exactly what a strawman argument is, and if I had been unclear, you've amply illustrated it repeatedly for all to see. I wish you were willing to discuss the issue, because contrary to your assertion, I think this problem desperately needs a solution, as it is one of the biggest threats facing our nation today.

It is also both interesting and reveal that you can't/won't answer the question regarding the President's job performance in this area.

I see lot of Hate, Veeshir.... (Below threshold)

I see lot of Hate, Veeshir. You're stocked up on ridicule and derision, too.


What I don't see from you, are solutions.

Look at the article again, ... (Below threshold)

Look at the article again, Watchman.

Then look at your comments.

I agree to this much - your position is obvious.

I see lot of Hate, Veesh... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

I see lot of Hate, Veeshir. You're stocked up on ridicule and derision, too.

That's the best you got? You can't even respond to one thing I actually said? You just attack and attack and yet, you are trying to say that people should be nicer on the web?

As to solutions, maybe you should have read my comment. I'll repeat my personal solution
I try not to question motives or call names, I try to respond to what is said.

You might try that tack. You might also back up your assertion that I demand that people bow to my opinion.
Or, you might just attack me or ignore me. I'm betting on one of those last two options, I've seen you work before.

DJ, Do you deny that you re... (Below threshold)

DJ, Do you deny that you repeatedly answer those who call for enforcement of exsisting law by saying the Democratic Congress won't approve it? (I can always cut and paste if necessary.)

So then how am I taking a cheap shot by calling you on the rhetorical tactic of setting up a false strawman arguemnt? That is exactly what you are doing.

I gave three specific things the President could accomplish by executive order that I believe would help enforce existing law. For your convenience, here they are again:

That employers will no longer receive three days notice prior to having their workplace and records inspected. That illegals arrested for violating other laws (like DUI) will be deported immediately. That the entry/exit system already tested be expanded to catch those who overstay valid visas.

Please tell me which of those is beyond the President's current power...and which of those you believe will not help the situation. It would be nice if you would respond to the specifics rather than retreating to the generic.

Once again Veshir, Watchman... (Below threshold)

Once again Veshir, Watchman, etc.

You want to attack the President, I will not only say you are wrong, I will say you are helping the Democrats and dismaying the public.

It also does nothing to solve the problems, even though I am sure you are thoroughly enjoying slandering President Bush.

You seem to think that Dubya can just ignore Congress in addressing this issue. If that were true, why didn't Reagan do it? Why was there even a bill to address these issues?

Because, no matter how much you pretend otherwise, this is not something which Superman can solve. It requires local/federal coordination, it requires courts to uphold law enforcement, and it requires specific Congressional allocation of funds to critical resources like holding facilities, overtime for ICE operations, and IRS directives to pursue suspected employment fraud. None of those things is within the President's scope, but fall squarely under Article I, not II. And you might be glad of that, the next time Hillary or her like gets into the White House.

Hate Bush all you want, this is not all his fault.

And they are STILL trying t... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

And they are STILL trying to make the argument about whether the immigration bill is bad or not - when that is not the subject under discussion.

Again. Noone here is arguing that it was a good thing.

What I want from YOU is why you think its productive to throw tantrums, call people traitors, and ensure that Democrats get into office because someone dared to defy you?

DJ, I don't fault Bush. I l... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

DJ, I don't fault Bush. I live in Texas and I am well aware of his stance on immigration. I do not see a government that is working for what is best for the country. I believe there is nothing we can't do if we put our collective minds to it. Enforcing the border can be done.

Also, you can't beat a good woman to settle a man down. ww

WW: "you can't beat a go... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

WW: "you can't beat a good woman"

In Texas WW, you know the women here can beat anybody!

DJ,Quit digging this... (Below threshold)
Budahmon:

DJ,
Quit digging this hole...The GOP has fractured, the conservatives have left this President. You keep saying that the Dems are so bad. I'll repeat: did they give us Mismanaged War, Tax Breaks that get taken away, earmarks, Corruption in House and Senate, Harriet Miers, Dubai Ports, Katrina, no enforcement at the border, no enforcement of illegal aliens in the work place, Plame, No Child Left Behind, Medicare Prescription Drugs, and finally an Amnesty plan brought out in the dark of night to have less than a weeks debate and an attempt to cram it down our throats. We say No Mas!!! You say "Thank You Sir can I have another". It's over DJ this President did not try to bring this bill to the floor of the Senate to fix a problem. He brought it to the floor for the Business wing of the Rep party. Have fun winning a vote without the conservatives DJ. We can always go to the Dems and find a John Tester or Jim Webb to support...hell even a B. Dorgan. At least these guys won't sell out the hard working people in their districts. At least these guys are not intent on creating a permanent underclass in this country.

SHEESH I feel like I just w... (Below threshold)

SHEESH I feel like I just walked into the cafeteria of Faber College after the Delts have left. Food everywhere.

(creating a permanent underclass?)

Too bad this argument didn't take place 21 years ago when the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) was "focused almost exclusively on illegal immigration", or in 1996 when the Illegal Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (IIRAIRA) was supposed to be focused on "quick removal of undocumented immigrants."

Oh it did? Huh.

I can't believe I didn't kn... (Below threshold)
Lorie Byrd:

I can't believe I didn't know we shared the same anniversary date, DJ. I just celebrated my 15th. I am getting to be a really old lady.

I should probably check thi... (Below threshold)
kim:

I should probably check this before I post it, but I believe the world's documented record is 86 years held by two German couples in the 18th Century, probably because of early marriage and some wild gene for bureaucratic recordkeeping. But what about China?
=============================

Well, the web supports 86 b... (Below threshold)
kim:

Well, the web supports 86 but not Germany. There is a Taiwanese couple married in 1917, an Indian couple married in 1853, and an American couple married in 1743. I learned the stuff about the two German couples at least 20 years ago; that's how long I've been repeating it. Maybe it's true but hasn't made it on to the internets Al Gore invented yet.
=======================

Aw heck you all are young w... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Aw heck you all are young wippersnappers when it comes to being married. As of this past March 12 my wife and I have been fueding and fussing for 52 years. As to the border deal there is only one way to do it. HAVE THE DESIRE TO DEAL WITH IT. Something that has not been shown by either side. Nothing but BS being spread about to try to get elected again.

There is only one way to st... (Below threshold)
kim:

There is only one way to stay married; have the desire to do it.
======================================

Right Budamon. The Republ... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

Right Budamon. The Republican Party used to stand for something (limited government, fiscal responsibility, rule of law) that it no longer stands for under Bush. If you take out tax cuts, is there anything "conservative" about the Bush presidency?

Even this latest ploy--to "borrow" 4.4 billion for general enforcement issues now--is an example of how the GOP has lost its way. It's just an attempt to use funding and not results to show committment and caring. Spending is not results.

That's the same thing we've criticized the liberals for all these years.

I think the GOP as we knew it is dead.


Kim said the only way to stay married is to have the desire to stay married. I think I'm like alot of people out there....I don't want to be a Republican anymore!

It is a modern notion that ... (Below threshold)
kim:

It is a modern notion that marriage is supposed to lead to happiness.
=============================

I have since stopped arguin... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

I have since stopped arguing with DJ about the issue of immigration and his high-handed, holier-than-thou approach to those who disagree with him. DJ has been very hypocritical in both his positions and tactics used in this debate. Granted some go over the top, Kasper your rhetoric is an example, but others have been civil and forthright only to be ridiculed and derided by DJ for any number of things that just don't make sense based on their writings, see Watchman and WW above.

Also, any attempt to explain to DJ that Bush is just wrong-headed on this subject invokes a generic heated response from him that you just want to insult and blast GWB when all along most people just want him to realize how upset they are with his (GWB's that is) position.

In this debate DJ you may not be as caustic as those Lorie describes, but you are hardly being fair to those who disagree with you.

I apologize for my rhetoric... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

I apologize for my rhetoric. I am passionate on this issue, however and am extremely disappointed in Bush's lack of seriousness or sincerity on the issue of border security and enforcement. The truth is that Clinton did a better job of enforcing our borders and weeding out the felons and terrorists. The following article gives the statistics.

http://www.examiner.com/a-777732%7EKeeping_the_bad_guys_out.html

Why do you think Bush is wo... (Below threshold)
kim:

Why do you think Bush is working so hard to extend our economic and political model elsewhere?
=========================

Bottom Line: If you're blam... (Below threshold)

Bottom Line: If you're blaming someone else but don't have a clear plan yourself, you're part of the problem, not the solution.

And pretending helping Democrats gain more power is in any way sane or reasonable for the USA, is just delusional.

Oh? Give examples of the '... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Oh? Give examples of the 'reasonable' things which have been derided, could you?

I honestly don't get the po... (Below threshold)

I honestly don't get the point of any of Drummond's illegal alien posts and columns. I think he adds fuel to the fire when he asks for solutions, then when he gets them tears them down. He tells (not asks) us to play armchair quarterback and then gives all the reasons why those plays won't work, and then how we're not qualified to give them in the first place.

"My party right or wrong" is bad, bad juju. Are there extremes? Sure. I don't believe in the "New World Order" and that the President is actively trying to destroy the USA for fun and profit.

I think the vast majority of conservatives who are opposed to the "comprehensive immigration reform" do so because we know that we need to find a way to make our borders reasonably secure first -- and THAT is the debate we should be having. Not about what to do with the illegals here (not yet, at least), and ~not~ columns with the sole intent of proving how reasonable the author is and how partisan others are.

On a side note: Does anyone else feel like blogs are microcosms of news-station discussions where two pundits talk or argue for five minutes and then the news moves on to the next item?

And pretending hel... (Below threshold)
And pretending helping Democrats gain more power is in any way sane or reasonable for the USA, is just delusional.

Respectfully, did you miss 2004-2006?

Are we always going to go for the "lesser of two evils", DJ?

Ryan,Please just g... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Ryan,

Please just go to some of the posts written by DJ, then read through the comments and see how DJ responds to other's suggestions and solutions. It all comes down to what DJ views as a plan or solution. If what you write doesn't meet his criteria for a plan, you are shouted down.

Bottom Line: If yo... (Below threshold)
J.R.:
Bottom Line: If you're blaming someone else but don't have a clear plan yourself, you're part of the problem, not the solution.

Bullcrap. There is plenty of blame to go around for the illegal immigration problem we have and calling someone out for that is not part of the problem. It only became part of the problem to you because we are calling GWB to the mat on this one. His backing of this bill is terrible, and his constant drumbeat to get something done is pathetic. And the conservatives around here who are saying this, myself included, have offered solutions, you have just chosen to disregard or misrepresent them.

And I will say this again (... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

And I will say this again (and it can't be said enough) in regards to Lorie's post. It was those in favor of this awful bill that came out with all the inflammatory rhetoric towards those who disagreed and/or wanted more debate about this bill.

It was those of us who contacted our Senators, in spite of being called bigots and etc., and other Congressmen voicing our displeasure with how this was being handled that our responsible for the tabling (and hopefully killing) of this bill.

I am opposed to the immigra... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

I am opposed to the immigration bill. For the five thousandth time. You don't get to dodge and weave by trying to make this about support or not for the bill, which it isn't.

Its about Rebublicans adopting the very tactics they derided from Democrats.

Ryan, I agree with you. An... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Ryan, I agree with you. And the Republicans who adopted those tactics are the ones who favored the passage of this bill, not the ones against it!

Do we agree on that or not? I'm not trying to dodge and weave on anything.

Sorry DJ, I didn't do the I... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

Sorry DJ, I didn't do the Internet last night after 5.

You keep not responding to what I write. I wasn't talking about Bush, I was talking about you writing this
When Conservatives not only use, but embrace the rhetoric we so rightly excoriated and mocked in D-Kos and DU, how does anyone bring them back to sanity and responsible discussion?
when you, as I tried to show, are a prime example of non-sane and irresponsible discussion. Nowhere, on this thread, did I mention Bush or immigration, I was talking about how you act. And of course, you are still ignoring my point. Responding to points is one of the major aspects of sane and responsible discussion.
Physician heal thyself. as I wrote in my first comment on this thread.

If you are still banging the drum about how we are supposed to support our betters no matter what they do, you're in the wrong place.

Somehow I am not persuaded ... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

Somehow I am not persuaded by D.J.'s argument that George Bush has not been able to enforce our immigration laws or secure the border because ( he is only the President!

Nor am I moved toward supporting this bill by Bush's attitude to the GOP base of the old Ted Knight retort "You'll get nothing and you'll like it!"

Nope. I support enforcment first. And for this, i have been called a bigot (Graham), a racist (Chavez), a murderer (Chertov)and a vigillante (Bush).

I've been played by that old line about "choosing the lesser of two evils" for many years, but now, I'm having a hard time figuring out which side that is.

My mother, 79 years old and and ethnic Republican, just dropped her membership in the GOP. She's heartbroken and told me "Well, I hope my grandkids are going to like this "socialism" thing"

Doncher mean dhimmitude?<br... (Below threshold)
kim:

Doncher mean dhimmitude?
==================




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