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So Waddaya Want?

OK, from the start I admit that I am not the best candidate to play peacemaker, but the matter is too important to ignore. Conservatives, various flavors of Republicans, and more than a few flame-throwers just out to stir up the fighting have been going after each other on and off again for more than a year now. There have been manifestos demanding surrender by the majority to a rabid few, there have been some folks so offended that they say this is the end of the Conservative Movement, there have been good-faith efforts by some very fine people to try to mend fences, there have been gentle reminders that some folks have gone very angry without checking the facts, and some have pointed out deliberate attempts to lie about what certain officials have actually said on an issue.

A depressingly large number of Conservatives have, once again, taken up the ridiculous chant that losing is winning if it rids the Movement of 'impure' members. That Republicans who survived losing seats would decide to become more Conservative (I warned last year that the opposite would happen. When they lose seats, the GOP starts thinking the public wants more Liberals, and they start acting that way. I also warned the readers long ago, that the My-Way-Or-Else Conservatives were the greatest threat to the Republican majority in Congress, and that the Democrats would be happy to accept Napoleon's advice, 'do not interrupt your enemy when he is making a great mistake'.)

So, here we are. Republicans are the minority party, the public does not trust anyone in office because pretty much all the character attacks left marks, some of the best-qualified people are staying out or leaving the work because of how anyone gets treated, who seriously tries to tackle the hard jobs, and the tone of debate on issues has gotten so foul that no discussion ever lasts even an hour before personal attacks begin.

You did that. Yes, you. So did I. The cast is made up of folks who either caused the fights and derailed the discussion, or they stood by and let it happen. Yes, that's a generality, there are some few people of honor who tried their best to stop the implosion, but they were ridiculed or ignored. Enough people were hell-bent on taking the Conservative Movement over the cliff, that we are now flying headlong towards the rocks. My question here, is what we do now.

Don't bother with the issues here. As I said, the Republicans are in the minority of Congress, and even Republicans would rather heckle the President than help him get work done, so it's not as if we are in charge of the legislation train. And Conservatives? Shoot, a bunch of them are going around pointing fingers at the others and saying they can't call themselves Conservatives unless they troop along with the mob, and "purge" Conservatism of anyone they deem unworthy. There's a phrase for that: Malignant Narcissism. It makes Conservatives a flea on the back of a very small dog in a very big dog pound. It's going to be a while until Conservatives have the clout to get D.C. to take them seriously, and I hope we can all agree that is not a healthy thing.

The question here, really, is what everyone wants. To some degree, I think we feel the need to vent, to let loose some frustration and to find someone who will listen to us. I could point fingers (and you know how much I am tempted), but really the only thing we can do now is start to survey the damage and figure out how to rebuild. But even before that, we're going to have to get the screamers to give it a rest, so we can find out what options are even possible.


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Comments (80)

we're going to have to ... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

we're going to have to get the screamers to give it a rest,

I absolutely agree, when will you give it a rest? Your whole screed is about attacking people who disagree with you.

There are two problems with your screed, first, you're talking to the wrong people.

Why don't you talk to the politicians who have left behind all the stuff they were elected to do? Reread the Contract with America. Then, marvel at how they almost totally ignore it.
Denny Hastert attacking the FBI, a part of the Executive Branch, for acting under authority granted by the Judicial Branch. (Rep Jefferson)
The Amnesty Bill being shoved down our throats and being called racist when we rebelled.

No DJ, you're talking to the wrong people.

And second, those aren't "character attacks", those are policy differences. You wonder why I'm not leaving you alone? Because you appear, to me at least, to be so sure of your own perfection that you can absolutely never understand that you're wrong. I'm not saying hypocrisy, I'm saying that when you read this you will be absolutely dumbfounded that anybody could actually disagree with you. Then, you will be angry and attack me. Since I've already called your likely response, I'm curious to see how you do respond. I figured you'll ignore my points, try to appear reasonable and never, ever, ever admit that my two points above are correct.

Alternatively, you could explain how they're wrong, but I seriously don't think you will do that. Prove me wrong. Make me look like an idiot. Try to actually, rationally and logically refute my two points above. I'll repeat them in short form so it'll be easier.

1.Blame the politicians for not being conservative, not us for not liking it when Republicans act like Democrats.
2.They're not character attacks, they're policy differences. Getting angry when Linda Chavez or Mel Martinez calls me a racist is not a character attack, it's responding to one.
Okay, so that's 2 and a half points.

DJ, did you miss 2004-2006?... (Below threshold)

DJ, did you miss 2004-2006? Why on God's green and warming earth would we think that is "winning"?

The ideologues here are the ones who are saying, "my party right or wrong" and that the alternative is worse.

No. ~Both~ of those answers are incorrect. It also doesn't mean people who say that's not the best way to go aren't able to accept other viewpoints.

I must also wonder why we must have so many blog editorials by the same person on the same subject showing how 'reasonable' the author is?

leaving off the continuing ... (Below threshold)

leaving off the continuing routine of 'no, it's your fault', neither of the first 2 comments addressed the questions at hand:

What do you want to do now?

What are the options?

I didn't address the questi... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

I didn't address the question?
I guess I was correct
I figured you'll ignore my points, try to appear reasonable and never, ever, ever admit that my two points above are correct.

I'll reiterate where I think you go now
There are two problems with your screed, first, you're talking to the wrong people.
Get the politicians to understand that we vote for them for what they do, not because there's an (R) after their name.

That's where you go now. Me? I'm already assuming I'll see the end of Western Civilization in my lifetime, I'm busy buying ammo and preparing my escape route from DC to the Catskill Mtns.

Yeah, I don't expect answer... (Below threshold)

Yeah, I don't expect answers from him any more. Just more questions, marginalizing, etc.

The problem isn't with people saying, "woah! Stop this train; I want to get off!". The problem is when the conductor says he's taking you to one destination while driving elsewhere.

The GOP lost largely because they lost their conservative base. I disagree with the notion that the remaining GOP believe they must become more liberal. There simply is no basis for this, other than what? Raising minimum wage?

I'll point out that DJ didn't really ask a question, but still used it as an excuse to not answer any questions. What do I want? I want people to stop saying they are conservatives when they really have federal and socially liberal beliefs. I also want people to not be willing to accept a party which sees the color blue and tells us its red.

Well, that's for starters.

DJ,I applaud your ... (Below threshold)

DJ,

I applaud your efforts. I have clearly moved from the "please don't do this" to "why did you do that" to the "Why do I care what you do?" phases.

What do I want for the future. Fantasy: the far right realize they need to work with people and lose the debate at times - but do it with some respect. And they admit they overstepped. Not likely.

Real World: There are always opportunities and new alliances. I think it is best to give the GOP a rest and see what others have to offer. Because, sadly, my fantasy preference is not going to happen and I am not going to go back into the mess the GOP has made of itself. Why waste my time?

I have a question for your readers: why should moderates even try to make an alliance with the far right? Are you folks going to give on anything?

Cheers, AJStrata

Who gets to decide who is c... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Who gets to decide who is conservative and who isn't?

So what do I want? There'... (Below threshold)
Skip:

So what do I want? There's one absolute minimum, non-negotiable thing. I want a Republican leadership that doesn't look on Conservatives the way the Democrats look on African-Americans. IE, count on us as a reliable vote while doing very little that actually is in our interests and many things against them.

And frankly, there's only one way to get that, and that's to throw the bums out, and deal with the pain. We tried the 'vote for them anyways because they're better than the other guys' in 2004, and it got us 2004-2006. That didn't work.

We tried staying home. And so far, the results are basically indistinguishable to me. The only difference is who's going to get blamed for the cluster.

So what are the options? With the current Republican leadership, none good. Until they get replaced, we're screwed.

even Republicans would r... (Below threshold)
sanssoucy:

even Republicans would rather heckle the President than help him get work done

If the "work" that Bush wants to "get done" is an amnesty bill for every border-jumper illegally in the pueblo, then he needs heckling, not help.

Sheesh.

SS

"If the "work" that Bush... (Below threshold)
Mister Link:

"If the "work" that Bush wants to "get done" is an amnesty bill for every border-jumper illegally in the pueblo, then he needs heckling, not help."

Please read this.

<a href="http://theanchores... (Below threshold)
Mister Link:
From Mr. Link's link:... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

From Mr. Link's link:
"Since The President Took Office In 2001, The Administration Has More Than Doubled Funding For Border Security From $4.6 Billion In 2001 To $10.4 Billion In 2007. As a result of this investment and other deterrence factors, the number of people apprehended for illegally crossing the southern border is down by nearly 27 percent in 2007 from this point in 2006."

The number of people "apprehended" for illegally crossing the border is down.....? So, either people are giving up or the U.S. is doing a poorer job of apprehending illegals who are geting cleverer about sneaking in to the U.S. Which is it?

No one in this thread used ... (Below threshold)

No one in this thread used the word "betray" until Mr. Link did.

The "far right" is out of l... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

The "far right" is out of line? I don't recall the "far right" hurling "bigot," "racist" and "xenophobe" accusations around like a bunch of leftists.

In any event, let's take it as a given that the Republican Party is drifting slowly leftward, pulled by their more leftist counterparts and the MSM. The Republicans can no longer call themselves the party of restraint or limited government with a straight face.

For the sake of argument, grant that the preceding paragraph is true (and I believe it is.) What is the cure? How does the party get moved rightward again? Practical suggestions please.

Miracles.====... (Below threshold)
kim:

Miracles.
====

One thing Jeff, which I wou... (Below threshold)

One thing Jeff, which I would like to see, is more participation at the grassroots level by Conservatives. Hey, I know it's hard, I have a job and a family too and all just like lots of folks, but too many people think 'getting involved' means voting once in a while.

If we get better candidates and a better platform, then we should be able to hope for better results at the end of the election.

I would like to be consider... (Below threshold)

I would like to be considered a conservative even if occassionally I disagree on a subject.

The purity BS is one reason why the GOP is a lost cause in my mind. If we have to agree on every detail or be considered impure (as many here seem to be complaining about) I ask again - why would anyone ally with people to create a governing coalition???

Bush is a conservative who shares the views of many other conservatives on immigration. If that is polluting the party or movemeny then the movement is dead. People need to learn to lose a disagreement or a debate without going crazy.

Let's see, the income and e... (Below threshold)
Laddy:

Let's see, the income and estate tax cuts disappear in a couple of years because the effing Republicans and Jorge compromised. We held our noses over the McCain/Reingold and the Gang of 14 and we got Harriet "the Hack" Miers in return along with a gigantic multibillion prescription Medicare benefit we can't afford. Yes, we've received so much for being quiet and acting like good little Republicans. We might as well sit back and let the Democrats have what they want. The voters always allow them anything they want to do anyway. Corruption and Dems together is OK for some reason. Now with giving into the illegals, we are truly lost. I'm in central IL and can't go anywhere without stumbling over Mexicans. Ten years ago, there were none around here that I was aware of. The Pubs were poised to lose a bunch of Senate seats in 2008 and 2012 due to demographic shifts anyway. So what if they lose some more. There really isn't anything they can accomplish anyway. They accomplished absolutely nothing when they controlled all three branches of government. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm a Conservative that mostly votes R. I suspect DJ is a Republican, period. I've had enough -- no more money, no more campaign help. I already live in the Peoples' Republic of IL so living in the Peoples' Republic of the US won't be all that much different I don't imagine.

Great postFirst lo... (Below threshold)
JH:

Great post

First looking at the comments I don't think people get it. Don't like being called racist , then help to police our own more. There are things I see on conservative boards and forums that make my toes curl. If I was a 19 year hispanic and spending a day looking at that no way I would be a Republican. IS that the majority? NO , but the problem is that more and more it is going uncritizied. POlice our own.

Now as to the party. Again I am sorry that people feel put out because finally some people have had enough. The Dubai Terminal lease deal was not pleasant. How many times can one be called a traitor, a Quislings, etc without being offended. A lot of people hung it up right there. MY support for the Comprehensive Reform and the insults I have got have been almost enough to drive me away from politics. But then a post like this brings me back. Thank you to the author of it

THe key is this. We have to take back control. Has it ever occurred to anyone here that a lot of the problem is money. Why is every issue it seems lately something the Conservatism or the Republic will live or die on. HEre is a clue. Start looking at your emails and direct mail you receive at your house. At some point you donated or signed on a list and now you are getting a million things to give money. They are part of the problem. You say there is no problem. Well start looking at the minutemen the next few months. That is becoming embarrassing more by the day at how mostly retired folks got scammed. Byt he way go to FEC and look at the reports. Most people that donate to these things are retired. There are reason why Children take away the mail from their older parents. mY grandmother about emptied her bank account because of that political direct mail. Something to think about

Was the Nuclear Option or the Gang of 14 really that important in the long run? Remember that? How many got called horrible names over that?

The Dubai Terminal lease deal was again one of many things that the supposed "base" threatened retribution on. Well the COngress heard you and how were they were rewarded by this "base"

The immigration issue is often one where there is threats to bolt? Well the HOuse did that segement of the parties bidding. UHH where was the reward?

IN the end we have to respect each other. We can't keep calling business evil. They might shockingly go elsewhere. The moderates can't attack the Christian right and vice versa. We have to listen to the liberatarian wing of our party. I could go on and on.

THis is the key. NOne of us get all of what we want. The day we realize that if we get 60 percent today and a opportunity to battle for the 40 tommorow is a good thing the better off we will be. That goes for all factions.

I have been hurt a lot myself. But I am willing to put away hurt feelings and work again for the 90 percent we all agree on.

JH
Louisiana

It is amazing how many "con... (Below threshold)
Michael:

It is amazing how many "conservatives" are ready to give up and run for the hills and to hell with America just because that can't get their way. I never realized that so many so-called conservatives are just little whiny babies...it is so embarrassing.

Bush is a conserva... (Below threshold)
Bush is a conservative who shares the views of many other conservatives on immigration. If that is polluting the party or movemeny then the movement is dead. People need to learn to lose a disagreement or a debate without going crazy.

First, it's illegal immigration. Second, this idea that a person must be 100% conservative (whatever that definition may be) is 100% BS and very divisive. Third, the people who are unhappy with the illegal immigration bill fully understand that more of the same isn't going to work (yes, I saw your blog). And finally, it's completely OK for people to say, "Woah! That's not a conservative practice!"

In fact, if we no longer can make such statements in general (with errors and "give"), then perhaps the party or movement truly is dead. It's like calling yourself a Christian but not believing in Christ. And yet, even within Christianity there still is a wide berth.

Laddy,Thanks for r... (Below threshold)

Laddy,

Thanks for reminding this life long Indie why the GOP is a lost cause. You two left in the party have a great time!

Skip at 2:12 said we tried ... (Below threshold)

Skip at 2:12 said we tried staying home...

He's right. And it doesn't seem to have done much good. Democrats have decided that Republican voters stayed home because they liked Democrats and it's almost like the Republicans have decided that they are right.

I don't think it does anyone any good to be all worked up about purity and elections aren't won by playing so hard to the base. The fact, again, that Democrats think so, that they think going the nutroot route in 2006 is why they won, doesn't make it so.

At the time people were pointing out that the Democrats were running, often as not, more conservative than their Republican opponents. They were running anti-corruption campaigns. That's been long forgotten, of course.

And now it seems, we're supposed to think that Democrats won because everyone likes Democrats. And if people disliked Republicans it was because of the war. Which it's not. Those people would have voted Democrat *anyway*. People stayed home because they were pissed at the Republicans for a lot of reasons. And nothing has happened about the reasons people were upset.

Yes, the base matters. But pushing hard toward the base means losing. I'd also suggest that misidentifying the base matters. Instead of looking at a religious right boogy-man, the party should be looking at *small* government, integrity, and security.

Eric,You don't rep... (Below threshold)

Eric,

You don't represent the ugly GOP - congrats. But others do here. You can disagree and vote your heart without tearing apart the party - well, someo of us can. The rest are on some kind of purity tear.

AJStrata, considering that ... (Below threshold)

AJStrata, considering that I'm registered Libertarian, a party that generally gets single digits of the vote percentage-wise, the gloating about the implosion of the Republican party seems... moronic.

People who vote Republican make up almost exactly half of everyone. Some places it's a little more, and some places it's a little less.

Democrats won a majority, barely. This does not imply *at all* a significant shift of opinion toward the Democratic Party.

AJ, I don't listen... (Below threshold)

AJ,

I don't listen to Limbaugh much, but one day a couple of years ago I did hear him say that he would rather try to stay with the party and steer it right than to abandon it altogether. It's a noble thought, but one I have trouble with because only a few years ago we ~gave~ them control of the Congress. What we got in return was at best a majority acting like a minority, and at worst people who just plain didn't act in an overall-Conservative way.

Other than the fear of a Democrat-run White House and Congress, what are the positive reasons to go GOP again?

FWIW, I haven't completely decided which way I'll be voting.

Synova,I am not gl... (Below threshold)

Synova,

I am not gloating. It is sad to see. But it had to happen. And it is a lot bigger than you think. It is not a slight shift. The GOP has gone from 35% in surveys to something liker 27% in many polls. The Dems are shrinking some too. But cleary the GOP is losing support. Gloating? I like many tried to warn about overdoing this matter. Don't shoot the messenger

How easy it is to see the D... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

How easy it is to see the Dems jerking to the left. Sometimes, when we keep our heads, we can beat them even against the odds.

Reagan was a man of principle. Yet, even he constantly made compromises with Tip O'Neill.

You can't always get what you want.

So when the moderates start calling themselves kinder and gentler, and the conservatives start only standing on principle...

We did this once, back in '92.

Conservatives sat out the election and we soon got Bill and Hill, and within months Hillary care.

And Karl Marx once again became the real enemy.

I believe at times the emot... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I believe at times the emotional level on some topics reach a fever pitch and take on a life of there own. I usually tune out for a while until the dust settles. I do agree it is incredibly counter productive to attack our own no matter conservative or moderate. I for one do believe in compromise. I have been married for 32 years and believe me, compromise works more times then it doesn't. But there are times it doesn't. This issue may be one of them. I do not know. It all comes down to my basic belief system foremost of which is following the rule of law. I do not want to know people who break the law casually and I do not want my government to ignore laws that should be enforced. It is important to me. I suggest that the senators go back to the discussions and whiddle the bill down to the basics. Enforcement, citizenship criteria and backround checks on the 12 million here. I am skeptical when there are 800 pages of a bill that could be said in one page. ww

Robert the Original,<... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

Robert the Original,

Wrong on Clinton in '92. You're forgetting Ross Perot.

Funny how it is the Republi... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

Funny how it is the Republican representatives not listening to their constituents (in overwhelming numbers according to polls) that is the source of the current problem, yet is is said constituents who get blamed for being "divisive." I'm not buying it.

Iam kind of amazed that peo... (Below threshold)
jh:

Iam kind of amazed that people just accept that the party has been pulled to the left. YEah there is a spending problem but guess what. We conservatives often view that spending in our district as important while other view it as pork. I have seen taht in too many cases

But back to the GOP being pulled ot he left? How? THis party is a lot more conservative on the whole when I first joined it in my young years.

Further, why is this immigration bill the ultimate litmus test among many that shows if you are conserative or not. I have seen some economic arguments that are being proposed by opponents of this bill that are not conservative at all. What about us Social Catholic Conservatives that have some problems with the hardline approach to the 12 million here? Shall we turn in our Conservative decoder ring? What about conservatives like Dr Land of the SOuthern Baptist Convention? IS he now a non conservative?

What happens if the bill passes.? IS there going to be a third party formed that platform is that they are mad about passed legislation? This is not the slave issue here. It also comes nothing close to the abortion issue that somehow we have all dealt with despite differing opinions.

AJ, who is commenting here I know is very upset but he represents a viewpoint that needs to be heard. In the back of our mind we are wondering what will be the next litmus test? Ans trust me there will be one if this not gotten under control and quick.

JH
Louisiana

Believe it or not, I realy ... (Below threshold)

Believe it or not, I realy do want a productive discussion. So, could everyone at least try to put down their blame guns and think about what we can do?

We have options. Trying to get the other side to admit they were wrong, well, it will never happen, so what if we focus on something to move ahead?

Look at my post again, please. Yes, I have my opinion about causes, but I was willing to admit my own part in causing this problem.

Are you willing to look at your own contribution to this mess, and consider what needs to be done?

Folks, we've been here a few times before. We've had a party that was popular but nor Conservative, we've had a party that was ideologically "pure" but got killed in elections, and - a few times - we've had leaders who got us thinking and working together, looking for answers and not finding excuses to make someone else a target. I have this notion, that these leaders showed up because we were ready for them. But we are not ready now, so it seems like we should be clearing up the debris and settling our house. Not with "purges" and such, but with ideas and real optimism.

The alternatives, more than ever, are unconscionable. Just imagine how President Gore would have addressed 9/11, or how President Obama would select SCOTUS justices.

AJ,So when the Dem... (Below threshold)
Eric B:

AJ,

So when the Democrats and Republicans are indistinguishable from a practical perspective, what exactly am I voting for when I vote Republican? Sure, the party platforms are different. The faces are different. But if the laws that actually get passed are the same, who cares?

Yes, yes, judges are important. Who appointed O'Connor? Kennedy? Souter?

I had high hopes in 2000 when Republicans finally took control of all three branches of government. I thought we would see a smaller federal governement. We would see devolution of power to the states. Lower taxes. Less government nannyism.

What did we actually get? Bigger government. Higher taxes. Evolution of power to the Federal government. More nannyism. Corruption. And arrogance. Remember Lott and his "Let me tell you something about porkbusters..." Now my president is telling me I don't want what's right for America because I want the law to be followed.

The two parties are just factions now, with members not bound by ideology but rather by association, like sports fans. I'm not a sports fan. I don't have party connections, or money riding on the outcome.

I'll probably vote Constitution again next election unless Republicans in Congress start to behave differently than the Democrats.

If only we had all this ene... (Below threshold)
jh:

If only we had all this energy we spend on the immigration bill and had used that on Social Security reform. Imagine that!!!!

Sometimes we (the base) horribily fail the party leadership that trys to fight for conservative ideas

If the Republicans are goin... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

If the Republicans are going to do exactly what the Democrats would do, why not let the Democrats lead?

That way they can take the blame AND I can say "Well, I didn't vote for them!"

I'm really not going to buy the old "You'll get nothing and like it!" argument any more.

DJ, we would definitely get... (Below threshold)
Eric Forhan:

DJ, we would definitely get further working together than not.

These infights are good for groups and we could end up with a stronger movement and party as the result -- just like so many of life's speedbumps.

Still, I think the GOP politicians have been working pretty hard on their own demise. YMMV.

"Never murder someone who i... (Below threshold)

"Never murder someone who is about to commit suicide."
German proverb

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men we must live through all time, or die by suicide."
Abraham Lincoln

Politics has left America with masters rather than servants in government. Our masters cannabalize the nation when they aren't feeding it to our enemies. America's government is a wasteland devoid of statesmen, peopled by unionized employees who believe themselves to be government, who are parasites on the populace. America is burdened by agencies that will not end, choked by bureacracies that exist to grow, infected with cancerous entitlements from which their is no remission. America's sovereignty has been made subservient to invading illegals, celebrity worshippers, corporate deals, and "special" interest groups. Our enemies hoist us on the pitards of multi-cultural tolerance, a legal system that welcomes abuses that punish the innocent and reward the evil, an elistist America-loathing media, a feeling among too many that America has room and resources for all the world's tired and hungry. Our leaders tell us that it is all our fault, that Americans don't give enough, understand enough, sacrifice enough, suffer enough. Suicide, it is said, is the severest form of self-criticism.. The sign is out in America: "New members urgently needed for Suicide Club".

DJ,It really is an... (Below threshold)

DJ,

It really is an easy path forward. The GOP pull together, back those portions of the bill they want and get the whole thing passed. Do not try and take elements out of the bill proposed by others in the GOP (counter productive and destructive). List the holes in the bill and start work on round two for next year.

If this coalition can be repaired it will work together and put a bill EVERYONE has some inputs on get through. It will be comprehensive. It will include legalizing the 12 million illegal here now with fines, back taxes and penalties.

If the coalition is important and is more than immigration then those who are fighting conservatives will stop and start fighting to fix those parts of the bill they have the highest hopes will do the most good.

The problem you have is those that support the comprehensive bill support all the angles in the bill (not saying they are perfect) and are not trying to tear out pieces they do not have faith will do much good. So there is no more movement for them.

Personally, the that is why the coalition is on its knees. As I posted before, there is no more common ground. The opposition has said they cannot abide common ground. That is why they oppose the bill in all forms. How simple is that? Come back to the common ground and act like allies.

That is the only way forward. There will be no trust on the right if this bill fails.

Eric, I think one thing we ... (Below threshold)

Eric, I think one thing we regular folks need is a united front in speaking to Congress. Not that anyone should give in on an issue, but that we should not go after each other, but make our arguments clearly, and in good order.

Speaking ill of the evil, D-Kos and their ilk are plainly unbalanced. I mean, seriously so. Personal threats and character attacks, wild theories that even Michael Moore would roll his eyes at, and demands that leaders pass a detailed litmus test on every bill - it's obvious those people do not live in the real world. We need to make it very, very clear that we are rational people with reasonable expectations. Not only because we will have a better chance of being heard, but also because if we appear as reasonable and intelligent, those Congressional yahoos might realize that we can turn public opinion by simply explaining our reasons.

I don't think, regarding the Immigration bill that is still stinking up the Senate, that any one group can claim credit for killling it off. But a lot of people asked serious questions, pointed out significant flaws, and in the end even the Senate began to realize they would pay a big political price (the kind they understand) and they backed down. Not because of the screamers, but because of the people who made their point without screaming.

Everyone seems so concerned... (Below threshold)

Everyone seems so concerned about compromise in this bill in particular. How can one call giving any sluggish bureaucratic agency such as the government 24 hours to investigate an individual to determine if they are eligible to stay here "compromise"? Absolving them of unpaid state and local taxes is "compromise"? Lowering the bar to accept gang members if they just renounce their membership on a piece of paper is "compromise"?

I'm as realistic as the next person in knowing none of us are going to get all we want. But it appears to me that too many people are willing to call this "compromise". It seems that if we want common sense applications we have to accept unreasonable stipulations attached to them that render them moot.

We want to know that the people we are accepting are of "good moral character" but we're only allowed 24 hours to determine it. We want them to make good on their taxes, but we have to be happy with just some of it and they don't have to pay any of it unless they actually apply for a green card.

There are so many instances of this kind of compromise it just leaves me with my mouth open.

Yet, when I bring up these issues, I'm a xenophobe, a bigot and I have no heart. I'm just being argumentative. If there are conservatives willing to accept this bill as it is, with the full knowledge that previous bills, while written with the best of intentions, have never been enforced, then that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion and whoever and whatever you want to support. I'm not going to call anyone names over it.

I'll not abandon the GOP over this matter because I'm all too aware of the alternative. But I do intend to hold their feet to the fire.

But stop implying that I am unreasonable or just whining because I expect more than what we're getting.

<a href="http://www.signons... (Below threshold)
jh:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/op-ed/navarrette/20070613-9999-lz1e13navarre.html

AJ Ruben Navareette again has a wonderful post on the immigration bill.

His point is valid and I can tell you that some of the immigrant groups believe exactly what he is saying. Here again is a golden opportunity for the GOP to show leadership and again repair some damage with a important groupof voters and future voters. THe time to do it is now.

A picture is worth a thousa... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

A picture is worth a thousand words..

http://minx.cc/?post=229976

Oh well, 153 years ain't a bad run!

Oyster THe 24 hour... (Below threshold)
jh:

Oyster

THe 24 hour period is for the sign up. If you didnt ahve that then the sign up could go on for years and even more people could get in after the cut off date.

That is not the finals step in the security process

Also for taxes. 7.1 million illegals filed income taxes last year. In the end we are not talking about a whole lot of money and to be honest I rather spend the money on interiro enforcement agenst for Worksites than more IRS agents. Also think about this. When this is all done what happens to all the IRS agents we hired. They aint leaving. They will move on to more glorious things an investigations which I am not sure is a great thing.

Kasper speaking of pictures... (Below threshold)
jh:

Kasper speaking of pictures and art I have complied a series myself here
http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/messagetopic.asp?p=4790637

Lots of the same issues relating to the illegals and immigration seemed to be repeating.

TO be honest I don't want to repeat all thosew tired themes. We can say this is just about the LAW but for a significant part of the base judging from the comments I see on blogs and forums it is not.

Oyster, let's visit that.</... (Below threshold)

Oyster, let's visit that.

You've been called names. So have I. So have a lot of people. It's annoying, but it happens.

I like your perspective on the matter. I disagree with some of your contentions, but doubtless you think I'm off on some of mine. That's where the compromise comes in; we both know we're not going to get everything we want, so we try to hammer out something that will work. That's my biggest beef with the bill, actually - I don't see how it's supposed to work. Who pays for the detention centers that are going to get more inmates? Who will get Mexico to cooperate with us on the deportees? How, exactly, will companies which routinely hire illegals be prosecuted?

I don't call people bigots, and I have no problem with reasonable questions and doubts. But calling the President "Jorge", claiming the entire GOP just wants to give in to Mexico, and in some cases out & out lying about what is really said and done, sorry but that's out of bounds. Some folks just don't want to work on the problem, preferring to show their anger in destructive and vengeful ways. Like saying they should "purge" the movement of people who don't agree with them, or claiming that their opponents "aren't serious" or "don't want to enforce the law". That kind of thing does no good for anyone, and it just keeps the feuding going.

We can do better.

jh, that's a scary thought.... (Below threshold)

jh, that's a scary thought.

IRS #1: "Waddaya wanna do?"

IRS #2: "I dunno, what do you want to do?"

IRS #1: "How about we chase down those companies hiring illegals?"

IRS #2: "We did that this morning, I want something different"

IRS #1: "Who's in power these days?"

IRS #2: "You mean the Democrats?"

IRS #1: "Oh yeah, them. OK, let's go see what we can dig up on some high-profile Republicans. You figure Limbaugh declared those prescription pain pills on his 1040?

Let's go audit him."

IRS #2: "Yeah, then we can go after Romney and that Fred Thompson!"


I asked this earlier, but i... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

I asked this earlier, but it got brushed over: who gets to decide who is conservative?

I've been flamed by purists who rattle off lists of their conservativeness, and if you don't meet their level of purity, you might as well be a registered Democrat.

But anyway: the way forward? First step: TALK. What do we really want in a party? What are our real goals? What are our objectives? And when those are accomplished, what then?

What do we want in leadership? What do we want in party structure? How big a "tent" do we want this party to have, given the realistic understanding that a firebrand in one area just won't sell in another area?

So...TALK first. Like any project in business, architecture, even sports, if you don;t have a coherant gameplan that the teams signs on to, you're gonna flounder every time.

DJ,You still do not ... (Below threshold)
Budahmon:

DJ,
You still do not get this....No Amnesty. Non Nada Zilch. Why? Because you cannot trust those elite, self serving politicians to uphold the law. They haven't yet, so why should they start now. Either the President is incompetent and cannot enforce the border or he is willfully looking the other way for the corporate wing of the GOP. I actually believe he is both incompetent and shilling for the open borders wing of the GOP. Give me proof I should trust this President. You can't....He believes it's his way or the highway...so see you later... I'll vote but not for a damn Republican who votes for this bill and we will defeat the Senators that vote for it. Martinez - 37 % right now.... McCain 47% right now...

You ask what we want? For m... (Below threshold)
ChampaignDweller:

You ask what we want? For me, it's politicians who deliver on their promises (yeah, I know, what a pipe dream). How many times have we heard that the government is working on border security, and how many times have we found that isn't true. At this point, I've been called so many names by the Republican leadership--bigot, loud, racist, nativist, un-American--that there's really not much else the GOP can say that affects my opinion. What I want is for President Bush to acknowledge that business as usual hasn't worked on the topic of immigration, and that he will support an enforcement-only bill for the next 12 months. Then he'll check and if enforcement is working, he'll come back with some of the other issues. I don't trust this government to do anything to secure the border--I want to see it first. Like Laddy, I live in central Illinois, and it's definitely changing--we have plenty of undocumented workers here. The Republican party sqaundered opportunities to change things while it controlled the Presidency and both houses of Congress. If they couldn't accomplish a conservative agenda then, it's because they didn't want to, which doesn't bode well for the future.

DJ, good post. Have a hitc... (Below threshold)
owl:

DJ, good post. Have a hitch when trying to load Whiz....too slow....but followed the link from AJ. You are trying to make sense but it is sure hard to even discuss this subject at this point because of the Bushbashers. That is all this is when you sift it all out. Even favorite bloggers I use to read first now say stupid, asinine things about Bush that I can no longer stomach. I am as sick of the Malkins, Lopez, Ingrahams as I am of the swarmy Newts and Presidential candidates with their jabs. I hate the Capt now always knows what Bush should do (for the good of the Party just dump everyone the Dems want dumped). After all, we all know he no longer is competent or has friends.......they say.

Wrong.

The incompetence of the millions of OTHER Pugs is what lost that last election. Bush was the only one of the elected bunch that showed up with a spine. So what did he get?

David Frum: "I always believed as a speechwriter that if you could persuade the president to commit himself to certain words, he would feel himself committed to the ideas that underlay those words. And the big shock to me has been that although the president said the words, he just did not absorb the ideas. And that is the root of, maybe, everything."

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/12/neocons200612?currentPage=3

This is Frum of Miers Production. What asinine gall. What asinine gall from all the elites that thought they had to get their own particular ditchdigger.

The President made a speech at the border April 9 so I hop over to see what kind of jab Malkin can take immediately......

"While the border fence shrinks and his support among grass-roots conservatives plummets, President Bush continues to lobby for his massive illegal alien amnesty plan. The open borders lobby, of course, isn't appeased enough. They want their green cards NOW."

Mild, Michelle. We all know you can jab harder and more frequently. After all, FRY BROWNIE was all about this same crap.

I voted for Bush twice. He is the only one of the bunch that would get my vote today. And I do not even agree with him 100% over immigration or other issues. But he deserves great respect for his behavior and his effort. He helped me convince several Mex/Americans to vote Pug with his common sense and compassion. It is gone now. Pffft.....right up in air for NADA. They are not going back. The Dim base can't stand them but guess what? Pugs just delivered millions of new voters into the Dim base. Folks that never voted before. Disgusting.

From Rich Lowry at the Corn... (Below threshold)
Budahmon:

From Rich Lowry at the Corner:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGRiNDA2NzUyNGEwZGMwYzFlMTdiMjNkOTllMTMzZmI

"Actually, Chertoff said something even more interesting yesterday. A yet unanswered question is "Why is the open borders lobby pushing for amnesty?" After all, they had it pretty good with no federal enforcement.

Chertoff and Kyl both seem to have answered that question recently, Kyl in his Wall Street Journal interview and Chertoff on Fox News yesterday: because businesses are starting to worry about efforts to enforce immigration laws at the local level. One state in the vanguard of that effort is Kyl's (and McCain's) home state of Arizona, where the legislature has passed numerous laws (usually vetoed) on the issue, and where the public voted for Prop 200 back in 2004.

To me that says something far more ominous than that Congress is being disingenuous or naïve on the matter. Far from simple being empty promises, this amnesty bill is actually a blatant attempt to head off any attempts at enforcement at all. After all, states and cities can't deny services or enforce laws against illegals if the government makes them all legal.

And we all know what will happen on the enforcement front: Congress will take out a loan to buy amnesty, promising payment in the form of enforcement. Within weeks, however, Congress will file for moral bankruptcy, and get to keep their amnesty while never paying back a dime's worth of enforcement..."

This is why we are so adamant about this DJ. We do not trust these elitists.

Amazing.Bush pushes a bill ... (Below threshold)
Xennady:

Amazing.Bush pushes a bill loathed by his party and opposed by 80% of the public-and it's the opponents who are wrecking the Republican coalition? Great leaders build coalitions, not tear them apart.Even if his approach on the immigration bill was right (which it isn't) most of his party hates it intensely.That alone makes it a bad idea.Huge numbers of people are abandoning the GOP over this issue and the way Bush is handling it.Everything else Bush has accomplished and wants to accomplish is at risk including Iraq and the rest of the terror war because of this.In other words, Bush is a fool.

When DJ was posting over at... (Below threshold)
Gary:

When DJ was posting over at Polipundit, I remember well his taking great umbrage at people who called Bush "Jorge" or "Arbusto." I see that's still the case.

Respect is something you earn. You don't get it just for taking up space on the planet, or just because you got more votes than somebody else; in fact you can lose someone's respect by doing things like lying to them or cheap shotting them.

Does anyone remember when Bush sent Ed Gillespie and Laura Bush out to take pot shots at the people who thought appointing Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court was not a good idea? I believe we were characterized as "sexists" and "elitists."

Or how about Bush's comment a few months ago that people who oppose CIR are motivated by "fear, ignorance, and irrational prejudice."

You can lose my respect when you say things like "it's not the Border Patrol's job to bother good hearted people who are just looking for work." Since when is it Bush's prerogative to decide which laws will be enforced and which ones will not?

Am I the only one who thinks that there's something grotesquely wrong when a Republican president is on the same side of an issue as George Soros, Ted Kennedy, La Raza, and a guy who runs a child sex ring, a/k/a Cardinal Roger Mahony?

With all due respect, George Bush is not to be trusted when he says we'll get border security - his first 6-1/2 years in office say otherwise.

I am as ticked as anyone, b... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

I am as ticked as anyone, but I am not ready to throw my hat in the ring yet on the charge that there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats. The differences are lessening, but they are there. It depends on your ideological filter. Focusing on the positive for a moment:

Democrats - The Socialist Party
Republicans - Big government, but way less than that. Voting Republican at least presents a chance for reform. It is a sad day when the choice is between out-of-control bloated government and outright Socialism but there it is.

Democrats - not a snowballs chance in hell of passing anything like the fair tax.
Republicans - a small chance of passing something like the fair tax.

Democrats - the culture of death.
Republicans - pro-life.

Democrats - not a snowballs chance of SS reform.
Republicans - as far as I know, Bush43 is the only one who has had the guts to try. A Republican successor may succeed.

Democrats - You are going to get nationalized health care whether you like it or not (see point #1)
Republicans - not.

Democrats - rule by judicial fiat. I am seriously beginning to fear that political conservatism will be outlawed by a corrupt legislature and judiciary (no hyperbole intended.)
Republicans - semi-conservative to originalist judges.

Democrats - on national security: surrender monkeys, U.N. ass-kissers, underminers of Israel, hate the military.
Republicans - best chance at having a secure, sovereign nation (in spite of scamnesty.)

I still say the backstabbing RINOs need to be punished but, for myself, I will always vote for the most conservative person who has a chance of winning. Sometimes that is going to mean voting for someone I don't particularly like.

I'm really not going to buy... (Below threshold)
Colorado KnightOwl:

I'm really not going to buy the old "You'll get nothing and like it!" argument any more.
Posted by: Kasper Hauser

I think that I am tired of people like Lindsey Gramnesty telling me he was "elected to work with Democrats", well if that was the case, why not just elect Dems and cut out the middle men???
We elect Republicans because we want them to have principles, we want them to fight for "our" values not Teddys.

Seriously if President Bush agrees more with Teddy on immigration and education what is the point??

They don't listen to us, they ignore us "because we have no where else to go"...Yes I do

It's interesting that the M... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

It's interesting that the MSM reports that something like 75% of the public wants immigration reform, and yet the senate can't pass it. What, does the MSM think people are that stupid (it's rhetorical; so don't answer that)? Yes, people want immigration reform, but not the particular reform that's being pushed. Given a choice between the "amnesty" bill and the current law, many conservatives prefer the current law and they have pulled together to defeat the bill. I don't see that as a crisis, but a healthy expression by a significant part of the electorate.

Now there is a way to move forward. I'll go along with amnesty of the 12 million already here and without all the penalties and nonsense about going back home to apply, in exchange for two provisions.

1. A constitutional amendment that modernizes U.S. citizenship so that someone born in the U.S. is not automatically a citizen if their parents are in the country illegally (similar to most other nations in the world).

2. Privatized enforcement. I've explained this in detail many times before and will not bother doing it here again. Under this provision illegals would be hunted by private citizens. This provision would only apply to illegals found working in the U.S. as independently wealthy illegls have not been a problem. Employers found employing illegals would pay the tab for all this. There's infrastructure that would need to be in place to make this work, but that too could be privatized. In short order there would be no jobs for illegals and with no jobs there's little reason for illegals to come here. Problem solved. All we would have to do is keep the politicians from dismantling the system in the future.

Republicans: There is a ch... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Republicans: There is a chance that border security may be addressed

Democrats: YOu KNOW there will not be a snowballs chance in hell of border security being addressed.

Period.

End.

Of.

Story./

No matter how many tantrums you throw,.

Republicans: There... (Below threshold)
Eric Forhan:
Republicans: There is a chance that border security may be addressed

Right. Because they have done such a wonderful job in the past.

No matter how many tantrums you throw,.

Ahh, another name caller. Woot!

Ryan,"No matter ho... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

Ryan,

"No matter how many tantrums you throw."

I have a real problem with describing the genuinely heartfelt reaction of the electorate as a "tantrum." It's that kind of condescension that has gotten the Republican Party in the trouble it now finds itself in the first place.

How the heck is counting on... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

How the heck is counting on my vote or my money as a given suppose to encourage a politician pay attention to me?

If I'm a "given", he can spend the rest of his time looking for the other guy's vote to cement his position. That means trying to appeal to liberals and definitely not doing anything to piss them off.

We end up with a mousy centrist at best. If that's what you really want, then say so. Don't attempt to trick me into supporting a Party chasing the center which is being drawn ever Left by the other Party's 'purists' successfully drawing their politicians even further Left.

jpm100Don't you ge... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

jpm100

Don't you get it? The GOP elites think you're stupid. It's that simple.

Ryan, you claim that the De... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

Ryan, you claim that the Democrats would do a worse job of border security than the Republicans, but that is empirically not so! In fact a recent study found that "immigration arrests under President Bush are stagnant and unimpressive despite massive increases in Border Patrol agents and other immigration enforcement measures imposed since 2000." Rather arrests and deportations are down almost 30 percent since the Clinton years.

This is not the only report that has found this trend either Ryan. Bush doesn't like our immigration laws, so he's decided not to enforce them.

That is a violation of his oath of office.

Using analogies, when you t... (Below threshold)
KendraWilder:

Using analogies, when you turn kids loose in a candy shop or bakery and tell them they've got the freedom and power to act according to that little inner voice, do you really think that the kids are going to look at all those sweets and, realizing how very bad it is for them, turn and walk away without gorging?

And what happens after a sugar rush? Crazy! Crazy frantic behavior. Followed by a huge letdown, tempter tantrums, and ultimately lethargy from burnout.

Sound like the GOP once they got control in DC after so many decades on the outside looking in, as it were?

The problem with kids is that they really don't learn well when it comes to sweets. It tasted too darn good when they were gorging, and given the chance they'd do it all over again once or twice more before actually getting sick enough to learn a lesson. That's why adults have to set limits.

The GOP is a party of kids right now, bloated on their excesses. They've been through the crazy stuff and temper tantrums (how else to characterize Dennis Hastert's behavior over the William Jefferson subpoenas?). And now lethargy has set in, paralyzing their sugar fried brains.

So what we must do as the "adults" in this country is to set limits and define acceptable behaviors. Obviously the GOP hates this phase with a passion, as is evident in their response to the electorates' response to the current shamnesty bill under consideration that just refuses to dies because they're under the mistaken impression that they're "in charge" in Washington, including the President.

We need to keep up the pressure constantly until Election Day 2008, and let them know that any elected official who operates against the party's foundational principles can expect walking papers in 2008.

And when we have a new Republican President, and have cleaned house in Congress, then we go from there with the new dynamics that we'll have to work with at that time.

It has to be as clinical as that. Anything else will lead to emotional crazymaking that will discourage all but the most dedicated of radical activists.

There are only two parties that have any hope of having majority success. Wasting energy right now on any other party in the hopes of finding a knight on a white steed is just plain silly.

Jeff,You are right... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

Jeff,

You are right of course that Perot was a third party candidate in '92.

The point though was that the party was fairly split with Will & Buckley against Baker et al.

Clinton won with a plurality. Therefore, had we held the party together it would have been easier to beat Clinton, not harder.

I know you agree that we will always get further united rather than divided.

I one sense I admire you DJ... (Below threshold)
David:

I one sense I admire you DJ, the Republicans have betrayed you and stabbed you in the back and yet, you remain loyal. I on the other hand have no more interest in trusting the worthless party leaders. I have said this before, but it needs saying once again, paraphrasing Chief Joseph (Nez Perse): I will vote republican no more forever. Their only interest is power and sucking up to their rich overlords. I realy hate saying this as I once believed, but betrayal should never be rewarded.

Not that I am going to vote for democratic swine, frankly it doesn't matter because none really care about the country.

Why don't you look, KAsper,... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Why don't you look, KAsper, on what the Democrats are actually SAYING they will do?

KAsper. .you have your head buried about five feet under the sand.

Harry REid: "Undocumented Americans"

Democrats in cities across the country Specifically establishing "Sanctuary cities"
You don't see a difference? YOu had better go get your eyes checked.


And David, you effectively ARE voting for democrats, however much you want to delude yourself about it.

This issue has been plaguin... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

This issue has been plaguing me for a few days now. I am upset and angry. I even read this morning that there is serious arm twisting going on behind the scenes to change republican senators vote for cloture. I think that stinks. The senate is set up prededurely just for problems like this. If there is serious disagreement, it doesn't get through. ON the other hand, I know if this passes, it will go to conference and other compromises may have to be swallowed. I, too wanted to write off my republican membership which I have been faithful to for 28 years, except for one year. Ross Perot syphoned off 19% of the vote in 1992 one of which was mine. I thought I would make a principled stand. What did I get for my effort? 8 years of Clinton. Overall, I cannot make that mistake again. I have decided to support the republican party, even if I have to hold my nose. I am still angry and upset, but the alternative is far, far more serious. DJ is right. We got to keep it together. ww

Yeah, like the Dems are goi... (Below threshold)
kim:

Yeah, like the Dems are going to do right with this mess.
=================================

David: "and yet, you rem... (Below threshold)

David: "and yet, you remain loyal."

Ehhh, I'm a Drummond, it's what we do.

Ryan, with all due respect,... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

Ryan, with all due respect, when it comes to illegal immigration, Bush's action (and his positions) for that matter are even more pro-illegals than Reid.

When I look back on it, I got smaller government, a balanced budget, dropping crime rate and welfare reform under Clinton with no expansion of "entitlements".

Under Bush, I've gotten a bigger government, wildly out-of-control spending, expanded entitlements without expanded benefits (Medicare Part D), increased Federal control of education (No child Left Behind), a huge decrease in immigration enforcement....and now...Amnesty.

Yeah I got tax cuts....and the appointment of two good supreme court justices...but we had to scream and yell to get the latter.

Sorry Ryan. I'm just not convinced that the GOP is worth supporting anymore.

I think the following sums ... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

I think the following sums up how I feel about Bush....

"A man must be accountable, else everything he does counts for nothing."

Kasper, we are talking abou... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Kasper, we are talking about the party. Not one person. ww

Fair enough WW..Bu... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

Fair enough WW..

But since the Party held the Presidency, the House and the Senate until 2007, the "accountability" thing still applies.

I hold them accountable. They were my party, not my team and when they fail they lose my support.

It's politics--not a football game. What they do in office matters.

They were my party, not ... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

They were my party, not my team and when they fail they lose my support.

They're neither my party nor my team, they're against the team I'm against.

Never vote "For", you will almost always be burned, if you vote "Against" you have a much greater chance of being correct.

And I will vote against ANY... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

And I will vote against ANY Republican (and any politician for that matter) that supports this bill....(including supporting cloture) even if it means supporting a Democrat.....

And I will vote for those who oppose it.

Fair enough?

Just as long as you're voti... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

Just as long as you're voting against and not for.

Well, I am voting <i... (Below threshold)
Kasper Hauser:

Well, I am voting for those that are against.....so that's okay isn't it?

Ever since we embraced "com... (Below threshold)
Thomas Jackson:

Ever since we embraced "compassionate conservatism" better known as spending like drunken sailors for big business and illegal aliens the party has gown stronger?

I realize that those who advocate more moderate (read drunken spending and ever larger government) programs can point out the growth in influence of the GOP and the many accomplishments persued by our ever vigilant El Presidente Bush.

One wonders what his poll numbers would be like had he pushed as hard for a secure border or permanent tax cuts as he has for the shamnesty and one more for the road and a few more for the other sailors.

We can also look at the support that these wonders have given the president and the pride they have made us feel so let us all cheer these moderates such as Specter, Snowe, Croyn, Mitchell,
Hagel and all the rest.

I can only say I'd rather vote for the real thing than a miserable imitation. So votye dhimmiecrat if you want a socialist paradise, if you vote RINO you'll get the same thing only it will take longer and you'll be lied to much longer.

Since this option doesn't appeal to me I'd suggest we purge the RINOs and those who really really think McCain is their ideal.

What's amusing about this w... (Below threshold)
The Other JD:

What's amusing about this whole thing is that the amnesty issue has done more to "unite" the GOP than anything else in the last 2-1/2 years. Of course, since it's united the GOP electorate to a position opposite that of El Presidente Shrub, this absolutely cannot stand in DrummondWorld.

As I see it, the main trouble is that the GOP folks in the District of Columbia evidently aren't getting the message being sent upwards from the grass roots, a message that is being sent in clear and convincing prose: No Amnesty, Period.

Or perhaps those folks in the District just know better than we peons out in the sticks. Exhibits A, B, and C in this are Senators Kyl, McCain and Graham.

What the GOP electorate wants from its representatives on the amnesty issue has been made abundantly clear. Furthermore, for once, the wishes of the GOP electorate closely matches that of the independents, as well as a goodish chunk of the Donks.

But contrary to the wishes of the electorate, we are expected to kowtow to El Presidente Shrub and John McQueeg in order to show "party unity." Feh.

If those GOP representatives in DC choose not to carry those wishes regarding amnesty to the Capitol and act upon them, then they face the prospect of removal at the ballot box. That's how it works. That's why we have periodic elections - because sometimes you need to weed the garden.

It is a fundamental principle of conservatism that you should not profit by illegal action, furthermore you should follow the rules set forth. Illegal immigrants cross the very nature of conservatives on both those bedrock principles.

But in DrummondWorld, we are expected to swallow this in order to continue to show fealty to El Presidente Shrub.

Well, Mr. Drummond, thanks, but no thanks. The time has come to get out the shovel - whether it be for burying the current GOP or smacking some of its leaders upside the head; I ain't picky in that regard.

I would add that there's some folks within the Donk party who are going to be facing primary fights themselves because of the Iraq funding issue; I don't see Drummond bemoaning their fate or griping about "loyalty" or other highfalutin' ideals where they are concerned.




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