Wow, That's 100 years old.

I bet you conservatives wish you could just hop in a time machine and go back 100 years, to the "good old days."

A lot of liberals wish you conservatives could do that as well.

What an incredibly stupid idea.

It's as if Custer survived Little Big Horn, and wanted to take another few dozen men back for a rematch under even less-desirable conditions.

Leaving aside the merits and flaws of this bill, who can possibly believe that this is the right time, the right position, or the right tone for this, hmm, 'considered decision'?

Between the Donks and the GOPpies, I am seriously beginning to think the Senate had a lobotomy party earlier this year.

Yeah, Lee, that Roosevelt person sure is a hater.

"Leaving aside the merits and flaws of this bill, who can possibly believe that this is the right time, the right position, or the right tone for this, hmm, 'considered decision'?"

I'd read rumors that it was coming back at the end of June. The only reason that would be accelerated, in my opinion, is if there was some indication from the opposition that they were softening.

In other words, the rush back to debate suggests that this may be closer to passing....

Synova -- the people of the United States, on average, are more tolerant of diversity and multi-culturalism than they were 100 years ago.

Heck, women couldn't vote in federal elections back 1907, and I don't hear Kim suggesting that we bring back that back.

The Democrats will promised to spend a few billion on border security to give a few idiot Republicans some political cover. Yet, we all know that the funds will not be budgeted or appropriated and nothing will be done to stop the flow of illegal immigrants.

In the end, the Democratic Party will get everything it wants (open borders, 12 million additional Democratic voters, and a massive expansion of the welfare state) and the Republicans will be totally screwed. Any Republicans who votes for this idiotic immigration bill is a total fool and should just resign instead.

You sure you want to use the term "resurrect"

More like "sweeting the pot" as in more pork added.

Lee, what you say is true. People now are tolerant of diversity. And they like the idea of multiculturalism. We *love* our ethnic mix with all it's chaos and wonder.

We also think that self identity as an American is important. That what we have in common is important. That we're in this together. It's quite all right to be hyphenated. No, not all right... it's *required*. It isn't the hyphenation that bothers people, it's the idea that -American can be left off as unimportant.

I'm a Norwegian-American. My heritage is important to me. The fact that I'm not bilingual is a shame to me. It's only been four generations... three born in America... after all.

My relatives fly the Norwegian flag... but they fly it beside the American flag. At one time I could sing the Norwegian national anthem in a language I didn't understand. I can sing the American one too. (Badly, like anyone, but there you go.)

It's about identity and, yes, it's about assimilation. And we're a soft and easy sell on assimilation. We're not so easy a sell on English. And it's not "hate" that pushes for language fluency in a language we all can share. I've worked with people who had no English and it's an economic prison. They can get jobs, but they aren't jobs that you or I would agree to do or jobs with any sort of future. Equality *demands* fluency. It's not being mean, it is a simple, immutable, economic truth.

I did say that people like the *idea* of multiculturalism. When multiculturalism becomes non-assimilation they don't like it very much any more. In theory it's supposed to be about diversity. In practice it's becoming a doctrine forbidding the expectation that certain cultural things be left at the border. We *do* have cultural and legal and constitutional elements to our country that are non-negotiable.

12 million additional Democratic voters

Most of these people will never become citizens. They really won't have any need to since they can stay here indefinitely.

This is all about providing cheap labor for the business interests in this country. Bush is just delivering (once again) for the people who put him in power (big business).

If it's about business can we *please* get some bi-partisan support for pushing for fines for those who employ illegals?

Larkin? You agree, right? Big fines for businesses?

I'm with you on that. A whole lot of conservatives would be with you on that. Screw the power brokers. We can push this though Congress on grass-roots bi-partisan support.

80% oppose this now

Wait until the next cyclical downturn in the Economy and see how people feel.

This bill is opening the field up for the Demagogues....

Larkin:

This is all about providing cheap labor for the business interests in this country. Bush is just delivering (once again) for the people who put him in power (big business).

As if the Dems had NOTHING to do with the current monstrosity called an immigration bill.

Of course we know "big business" is far different than "big labor" and "big lawyer lobbists" that put the Dems in any office.

Oh wait, none of that is true.

Big fines for businesses...that's all?

Why not throw in some jail time for the bigger violations?
If we're gonna do it, lets do it right!

Probably should, Knightbrigade. If it's something egregious.

Fines work, though, if the motivation is to save money by hiring illegals. It takes away the incentive.

This really seems a no-brainer to me. We should push it strongly.

I suspect, though, that it's not *big* business that is hiring scads of illegals. It doesn't change that we should fine employers, but I suspect that most employers hiring illegals are those self-employed with small businesses. Lots of construction and agriculture sorts of things and people hiring domestic workers.

But those people should be fined, too. At the very least they should be able to show that they made a good faith effort to determine that a day laborer or house keeper is a legal citizen.

And that they paid at least minimum wage for hours worked.

And once again non of our "leaders" want to discuss how much this will cost.

A couple of comments:
(1) Those small businesses usually complain that they cannot make money if they have to pay the "going wage" or "on the books". Maybe they should go out of business?
(2) The fines for hiring illegals are on the books now, just not enforced.
(3)Just because 73+% of Americans oppose this ****, the congresscritters "know better". Even the repubs are becomming Dems (socialists?)
(4)We'll learn what is in this bill (what is "good for America") 2 days after it passes and is implimented.
Time to crawl back under my rock.

Whats the matter Ward? Nobody responding to your BS on Blue? The influx from the south is nothing more than and unarmed invasion. The solution? Prevent the undocumented from sending money out of the country. Second confiscate property of those who rent or sell to the undocumented. Use the money to pay for more border security. Or let Lee Ward support them. If we could go back a hundred years, we would need to track forward to the time prior to Lee's birth so that we could release his mother from prison so she could have had the abortion she wished for.

"Second verse, same as the first..."

Supporting this bill is political suicide on either side of the aisle. American people respect others who obey the law as they were raised to obey the law. When you really get to the bottom of this, it's a free pass for lawbreakers and that is so hypocritical for the same guy who wants to tell everybody else how to run every aspect of their lives.

I have already written the senators again. ww

Wow, That's 100 years old.

I bet you conservatives wish you could just hop in a time machine and go back 100 years, to the "good old days."

Is the argument that anything 100 years old (say, like the Constitution) is bad?

Or do you just hate it when some principles are erosion resistant?

"We have room for but one flag, the American flag.. "

VDH put it quite succinctly with this commentary:
the "alien may wave the flag of the country he would never return to while shunning the culture of the host country he would never leave."

Hmmm...where have I seen this?

I'm so incredibly tired of the immigration issue. I thought Harry wanted to give this a rest so he could use his time to address "other important issues" and we could regroup and calm down and let cooler heads prevail.

Sorry, two more things:

Why would this only be an indication that the opposition were softening and not an indication that those who are supporting it are softening on silly provisions like 24 hours to determine eligibility?

Furthermore, I'd like to bring up Lee's remarks on Wizbangblue that the "opposition" to the bill are bigots and racists because "brown people" are involved. Also, his contention that were the bulk of them Canadian, we'd have passed this legislation from the get go. He does this without regard to the fact that the Canadian government is not instructing Canadian police to help Canadians cross the border illegally. That we do not have a mass influx of Canadians crossing the border, working illegally and sending massive amounts of money back to Canada to bolster their economy. And that these "brown people" are not all Mexicans. Some of them can be, and are, Middle Eastern extremists. We have not experienced large groups of people from Canada, from generally violent cities, transferring that same violent culture to our cities such as Los Angeles.

He has to ignore an awful lot of fact to sling those racist and bigot insults around like he does.

Abe Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan. This country sure needs men like that again.

I see the "we're not racists" newsletter has been distributed.

Good luck, oyster.

Those were my words, Lee. Mine and mine only. Is that your best response to a smackdown? Accuse me of parroting some newsletter because I won't excuse your spewing of spittle-laden vitriol? By the way, how are your demands of corrections to Paul Hamilton's post about Lisa Hayes going? Good luck to you too.

Anyone opposed to the immigration bill is a bigot and racist because "brown" people are involved?

Really! REALLY!!???

(ILLEGAL) and LEGAL immigrants could be LIME friggan GREEN, the economic/social EFFECTS are and would still remain the SAME.

It figures a weak minded leftard who's position on the issue lacked substance would go that route. When in doubt throw out the old bigot/racist, works every time from the left.