What they want is to be represented by people who share their values and understand their desire to have their homeland back. Why is that so hard (especially for a Jew) to understand?

Fattah is as traitorous, crypto-Zionist, and globalist as America's government. I wouldn't wish that on any nation.

And what they'll get next is armament from Iran so they can murder the Israeli pigs that are providing them their substance. gc

Existing policy says that we will not deal with Hamas until they subscribe to past agreements to recognize the right of Israel to exist and to renounce terrorism. This they will not do.

So I have some questions for the libs:

Do we support Fatah now and help Abbas? In ten years will you complain that we "created terrorists?"

Or do we do nothing and go to the UN to talk?

Or do we recognize Hamas, as Carter wants, and send them stuff?

Well?

I just wish Israel would stop treating Hamas as a mosquito and start treating them like the avowed enemy it is.

What a mess. It is all gonna go down soon--in the Valley of Megido. Read all about it in the bible (Revelation).

"It is all gonna go down soon--in the Valley of Megido"

Great ..., now I'm going to have nightmares.

Thanks.

Hope you enjoy it.

Yes, I'm sure they won't enjoy an end to the factional fighting that has plagued them for over a year. I'm sure they won't enjoy not having the Fatah criminals ripping off the aid money that we send and stuffing it into their Swiss bank accounts while the people go hungry.

Admit it, Jay, you're just pissed that the Gazans had the audacity to elect and support people who won't take orders from George W Bush. That just drives you crazy.

I'm never disappointed at what reasonable people of faith can accomplish together. Kinda brings a tear to my eye.

so, Larkin - I guess your answer to Robert's question is that they do everything Jimmy Carter's way. And as soon as the Islamo-fascists control the entire ME they'll return to being the religion of peace. Yeah, right

Yeah, that's it, Larkin. EVERYTHING I think and say is solely dependent on Bush. In fact, I used to love broccoli, but had to pretend to hate it out of respect for Bush 41.

Conversely, I'll echo GeminiChuck's point: just how many points do people and groups score with you just because they bash Bush? Hamas is allowed to kill so many civilians a week as long as they say mean things about him? Hugo Chavez is allowed to shut down television networks after comparing Bush to the devil at the UN?

I was against terrorist, Islamist assholes long before I heard of George W. Bush, and I will still loathe them afte January 20, 2009. I was against them when they shafted Jimmy Carter (who cooperated with them as fully as he could, and still does). I was against them when Reagan bombed Libya, when Reagan cut and ran from Lebanon, when Reagan sold weapons to Iran, when Bush 1 kicked Saddam's ass in Gulf War I, when Clinton made his tepid little strikes in the 90's, when he didn't go after them with the full power of the United States military after the first WTC bombing, after the Khobar Towers bombing, after the Cole bombing, after the African Embassy bombing, and I was against them after 9/11.

What's it like, Larkin, to look at the world through W-colored glasses? And is there a treatment for it? Seems a bit too much to clear up with some penicillin...

J.

Nevehlr fohlgett: Israel installed Hamas and funded them, too. Sharon, and the veteran terrorists Begin and Shamir sought to offset Arafat's PLO by handpicking Hamas cell leaders and arming them. Gave them free leases for neighborhood presence, etc. etc. etc.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hanania01182003.html

"What a mess. It is all gonna go down soon--in the Valley of Megido. Read all about it in the bible (Revelation).
Posted by: nikkolai"

True, but first Israel must be occupied by the Gentiles. And the Satan thingee, too. Both (and more) come before.

"Admit it, Jay, you're just pissed that the Gazans had the audacity to elect and support people who won't take orders from George W Bush. That just drives you crazy."

Come on Larkin, is it really too much to ask Hamas to recognize that the State of Israel exists and renounce violence? I guess violence and war really is okay for people on the left when it suits them.

Did someone hear a noise from Area 51?

"I guess violence and war really is okay for people on the left when it suits them."
Posted by: Eric

"If you're not for us, you're against us."

GW Bush, 2002

PS: The real name of the Skull and Bones fraternity is "Society of Death". It's true! Hence, the public masturbation while lying in coffin initiation rite; the occult sex=death, Mars conjunct Pluto symbolism.

Plus regulated death is good for bidness. See Brookings, "On the Desirability of Peace".

(Just trying to raise points not made 10,000 times by Bushbotic nitwits.)

Thanks for that image, BryanD. I was unaware that Skull & Bones/Society of Death/Privileged Wanking Assholes had an affiliate in Gaza.

You know, the actual TOPIC of the posting.

J.

Get a clue Jay, to the left EVERYTHING is about George Bush!

And don't anyone dare bring up the inconvenient truth that the 2004 communist, err - I mean Democrat, candidate was also a member of that same organization

This discussion is going downhill. First from the fatalist types thinking it's the end of the world, to lurid images of Skull and Bones. What this has to do with this topic baffles me, but I guess I'm not that smart.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, this is your typical making your bed and now having to lie on it situation. The Gazans brought this on to themselves, and now Hamas is making threats against Fatah just like they do against Israel.

If anything it shows the true colors of these islamic terrorists. They don't really care about the people they claim to fight for. All they care about is power and how they can get as much of it as they want. If they truly cared about the people, they would not be doing everything possible to bring pain and misery to them.

This is not to say that Fatah is the solution either. Frankly, what needs to happen there is that a new generation of people that are tired of the status quo, tired of mullahs dictating their lives, and yearning for a better life. Until that happens, I don't think we will see peace in that area.

Okay libs, two hours now and not a peep.

You are fairly good at sitting on the sidelines and throwing rocks.

But now, you are in control of congress and you should come up with something besides sending Pelosi to see Assad. That sure worked well.

What if you had the White House?

Well?

BryanD:

Odd how you interpret history in the way you do. Especially the way you misrepresent exactly was was said with "Israel installed Hamas and funded them..." and that they "...handpick[ed] Hamas cell leaders and arm[ed] them.".

There was no Hamas when this occurred, according to the very article you link. The Israelis simply did not see Hamas arising from those they tried to support. Do you really think had Israel known that those they supported had a goal to remove a man (Arafat) from power because he might cede land to Israel, that they would have supported them?

More than that, what I see in this article is not too far from the very thing that happened in Afghanistan when we supported Afghans against the Russians. And further, that Israel was willing to recognize the fact that a prospective "Palestine" would indeed be Islamic in nature whether Arafat was the leader or not, they had hoped that they were helping along an Islamic nation they could coexist with.

Instead, Hamas was born and became even more virulently anti-Israel. All the article portrays is the age-old Islamic tradition to take money under honorable pretenses and in turn use it to bite the hand that feeds it.

The part that cracked me up was the phrase "Arafat's secular solution".

Jay, I addressed the topic in my first post.

I took to the surface road in the second, but I submit that MANAGING war, and not ENDING war, is studied as Art and Science by the political elites, even supposed peaceniks, ie, Clinton's signalling of Carroll Quigley (author of Tragedy and Hope) at his Dem acceptance speech. And Skull and Bones is just a junior version of the real thing. Or the real thing at a more tawdry level. Note that Geronimo's skull is back (way back) in the news. Check it out.
Prescott Bush admits he robbed the grave, and W's cousin Wirt Walker has been in negotiations on its return. (Embarrassingly, the skull presented to the Apache representative was a child's(!). So, no go.) That was last time. They're in talks again now (or last week; need to google).

Finally: why bring up "masturbating"? Well, because the accepted description of the initiation goes: Lay in coffin, tell of your sex life (for supposed "testing"). Some test!

Satan says: Talk is cheap. Show me the beef! Plus there is always a consuming/annointing feature to all ritual oaths. Blood, water, or, like the archetypal death religionist (the pagan vikings), semen. (BTW: google for Risala, a contempo eyewitness account of a viking ship burial on the Volga river, written by Bagdad's ambassador to the Bulgars. Voluntary slave girl sacrifice, gang-rape, Rosie O'Donnell-type Angel of Death wielding the garrott. Has everything. Best translation (and alternate) in Gwyn Jones,A History of the Vikings(Oxford). BEST Viking book by far! Will drop the reader right in the middle with multiple back and forths through time, so the first reading will leave you boggled, but the writing is perfect.)

What was the topic again?

Robert: if the libs had the white house, it'll still all be Bush's fault. That's why they cant answer your question - that wasnt one of the choices.

Oyster, true, the name Hamas is new. Same characters AND paymasters, though. Village Councils were anti PLO cells INSTALLED by Israel's National Socialist Likudniks. A nation of Seinfelds.

And yes, it's reminiscent of our support for the Muhajadeen. Very much so.

If Fatah had gained the upper hand and had pushed Hamas out of Gaza, the trolls here would have called Fatah 'crypto-zionist', and blamed the US and Israel.

Watching Fatah and Hamas fight is like trying to decide to root for on the Eastern Front during WWII: Germany or Russia.

Gemini,

Exactly. Like little wind up dolls when you pull the string.

"Bush did it"

"It was the CIA in the 1950's"

"Reagan created OBL in Afghanistan"

Whine, whine, whine.

But come up with a plan of action when we're faced with a situation? Not a chance.

"He, like many Palestinians in Gaza, has long had a series of wishes." Funny, but this is exactly what the Democrats and whatever they (Larkins lot) are will get in the United States if they get they're wish. Total destruction after years of chaos. The Dim leadership counted on the brainwashing (kindergarden through college) to bring them power but didn't count on BDS to result in insanity in 90% of their base voters. The best laid plans of mice and men will turn into a disaster when their leaders (aka,Reid,Pigloshi,Murtha,Kennedy,Kerry,Clinton,Dimmy Carter) are insane.

Come on Larkin, is it really too much to ask Hamas to recognize that the State of Israel exists and renounce violence?

Is it too much to ask that we respect the wishes of the Palestinian people who choose Hamas as their government in free elections? If we are serious about promoting democracy that means supporting the results of elections whether we like them or not. If we don't do that, then all of our rhetoric about democracy is utterly meaningless (as Bush has demonstrated by attempting to overthrow the legitimately elected Hamas government).

As for getting them to recognize Israel I live in the real world. The most we should require is that they stop launching rockets and commit to a cease fire. We don't require that Taiwan recognizes China (or the opposite) and yet we are able to deal with both of those countries. Why not Hamas? Does China (or Saudi or Pakistan) really have a better human rights record than Hamas?

The Palestinians who live in refugee camps in Gaza are never going to accept the state of Israel because they believe they should be able to return to their homes (in what is now Israel) and not have to live in a Jewish-dominated state. Somebody should have thought about this before they drove them out of their homes in the first place.

BryanD Said "If you're not for us, you're against us." GW Bush, 2002
PS: The real name of the Skull and Bones fraternity is "Society of Death"...

Hey Maureen Dowd, when you quote somebody use the whole quote or show that you parsed it out.

The whole sentence is "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror."

So tell me genius what is a third option here?

As for the Skull & Bones info, answer truthfully, would you be bringing that up if Kerry were President? After all he is a member of Skull & Bones too.

Larkin- "Somebody should have thought about this before they drove them out of their homes in the first place." Didn't they(palestians) leave voluntarily in 1948 so that the attack from all of the Muslim countries could take place?
That would be a yes. Nobody drove the pali's out, they wanted Israel destroyed so they could take the land by force.

There would be peace in the middle east if the Israel's killed all the muslims that wanted to fight.

Larkin:

Is it too much to ask that we respect the wishes of the Palestinian people who choose Hamas as their government in free elections?

Why yes...yes it is too much to ask.

'Democratically elected' does not translate into 'valid' and 'worthy of support'. Further, 'free elections' are just that, the people freely voted for their leaders. Their leaders, not ours. We are in no way inclined support and befriend terrorists just because they were handed power.

After all, just because Bush was democratically elected in free elections, not once, but twice, doesn't mean you have to support him. In fact, the left seems to take a good deal of pride in not only not supporting Bush, but trying to discredit and undermine him.

Yet, you wish that we would just offer Hamas the support you refuse to give your own president. Still wondering why people accuse the left of being traitors? Plainly, you can't reflexively take the opposite stand as our President and / or conservatives without finding yourself sometimes shoulder to shoulder with some of the worst human beings on this planet.

If we don't do that, then all of our rhetoric about democracy is utterly meaningless..

No, it isn't.

Read above. Just because a foreign people voted terrorists, with whom it is our long standing policy not to deal with, into power...it does not mean we must reverse our rightful stance on the subject or be hypocrites.

You then go on to say you "live in the real world".

The most we should require is that they stop launching rockets and commit to a cease fire.

The MOST we should require?

We don't require that Taiwan recognizes China (or the opposite) and yet we are able to deal with both of those countries. Why not Hamas?

I suppose this is where you're going to go on and post a long, well-reasoned list as to why a Terrorist (Hamas) run non-state is analogous to Taiwan or China....

...

I guess not.

The Palestinians who live in refugee camps in Gaza are never going to accept the state of Israel because they believe they should be able to return to their homes

Why aren't they lobbing rockets into Egypt and Jordan?

Somebody should have thought about this before they drove them out of their homes in the first place.

Someone should have thought about this before they started a war with Israel and lost land when they were defeated.

Gosh. Boxed in on all borders. Random slaughter in the name of whatever. Future bomber randomly killed. Suffering from loss of services like sanitation, water, medince...

Gosh I love a good story ending...

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 06/20/2007
A short recon of what's out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

"The whole sentence is "You're either with us or against us in the fight against terror." -eric

The last five words: whatzit mean? Masonic gobbledygook. (Words should reveal, not obscure meaning)

"As for the Skull & Bones info, answer truthfully, would you be bringing that up if Kerry were President? After all he is a member of Skull & Bones too.
Posted by: Eric

True. And of course, I'd bring it up. But the real kicker with Bush is that future Hitler loan officer, Grampa Prescott Bush was the one who dug Geronimo up (in Fort Sill, OK). He admits it in his unpublished memoirs which can be found (in excerpts) online. And PRESIDENT Bush's Chaos Policy is quite in line with S&B's "Gifts for the Goddess (of Death)" lore. (Geronimo's skull was presented as a Gift to the Goddess by Prescott himself.)

"After all, just because Bush was democratically elected in free elections,..."

No, no, no, Heralder! Haven't you been listening? He "stole" the election.
/sarcasm

That is where any argument regarding Bush's presidency will end up. Once every other excuse is exhausted, it all falls back on the original sin that he "stole" it. It is the very foundation on which all of it is based.

Oh yes, Oyster I always forget that.

It's the last safety net above the pavement... found just below the 30% polling numbers net.

The 'Geronimo's Skull' net however, is sadly on an entirely different building.

So your point is what, Bryan? There was no "Taliban" either when we supported the Afghans. But your type likes to blame America for creating them, never once wasting a single word to hold them accountable for squandering what was intended to be for a different purpose. Take off your 20/20 hindsight glasses and have another look.

You however, in your commentary, seem to be content to take whatever stand affords you the best vantage point for casting blame in the direction that suits you. It just makes your avoidance of mitigating factors a