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Another Liberal Disconnect

I'm quite fond of the phrase "Irony is lost on the dumb."

The irony of some of the arguments from the left on the immigration issue is astounding. On one hand you have your typical liberal idiots claiming "Conservatives Driving Up Grocery Prices because after all, closing the borders means people can't exploit cheap immigrant labor, so us white people might have to pay more for groceries.

[Hey Wait - Aren't liberals against unfair wages and worker exploitation? They routinely whine about Nike or Apple running "sweatshops" but now they fully endorse the exploitation of poor immigrants so the price of oranges doesn't go up? -but I digress..]

On the other hand these very same liberals who warn of higher prices if we don't have cheap labor will argue ad nauseam that raising the minimum wage doesn't cause inflation.

Which reminds me of my other favorite phrase... "Being a liberal means you really can have it both ways."


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Comments (94)

"so us white people migh... (Below threshold)

"so us white people might have to pay more for groceries"

Glad you're not disputing Paul Hooson's point that conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries. That would be disingenuous of you -- instead you wrap your usual childish pulp around the idea -- without disproving it -- so you can resort to calling liberals 'idiots.'

Stunning analysis, there...

Actually, no one is "drivin... (Below threshold)

Actually, no one is "driving up prices," it's called the law of supply and demand.

By the way, Lee, I mentioned this before but apparently you were too busy sticking your nose in the air to check it out... there are exactly five guest worker programs currently in force in the US, including one for "seasonal agricultural" workers. That has not changed with the failure of Teddy Kennedy's bill. So farms can still get their immigrant workers under existing laws.

But you never let the facts get in the way of your LIES!!!!! do you, Lee?

"Glad you're not disputing ... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

"Glad you're not disputing Paul Hooson's point that conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries."

Glad you're not disputing that you don't give a shit about brown people lee and want to exploit them for cheap labor so you can get your ovaltine and tampons cheaper.

come on D-Hoggs,Th... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

come on D-Hoggs,

That's a low blow about Lee and tampons.

He's talking about oranges. Orange Kool-Aid, to be more specific.

I see dumb people....... (Below threshold)

I see dumb people....

Lee, your hypocrisy slip is showing again. Until you stop wrapping your own "childish pulp" around those things you cannot prove and using it to call everyone else choice names, you will continue to be a hypocrite everytime you accuse someone else of it.

Lee will be right back, he'... (Below threshold)
Ran:

Lee will be right back, he's over at DU getting his next response..thank you for waiting..*S*

EXACTLY Oyster.Pos... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

EXACTLY Oyster.

Posted by: Lee Ward at June 29, 2007 10:47 AM
That's role - not roll, bacon-breath. But don't let reality break that soft, warm cocoon of self-deluding bullshit you nutcakes wrap yourselves in each morning, SnoutMan, oink on!

Posted by: Lee Ward at June 29, 2007 10:34 AM
-- instead you wrap your usual childish pulp around the idea -- without disproving it -- so you can resort to calling liberals 'idiots.'

Not even 15 minutes can he wait to prove, once again, what an unapologetic hypocrite he is.

Paul, for the most part Lie... (Below threshold)
bill:

Paul, for the most part Liebrals remain disconnected, safely ensconced in the insular Washington cocoon. Like most control apparatus their biggest blind spot is group speak.

There is no doubt that the whole debate was extremely educational. But the most striking aspect is the wide diverse coalition that formed behind the loud people who led the charge -- Conservatives picked up the flag and showed the way.

Building on that is the next challenge. There is at least one Conservative candidate who seems to have noticed.

Is it possible that the gaw... (Below threshold)

Is it possible that the gawd awful Liberals are right about their supply and demand argument? If the supply of migrant farm workers goes down then the cost or that labor will increase resulting in higher prices for the consumers of produce. That seems to be Eco 101 to me.

Also, the gawd awful Liberal's argument about the minimum wage doesn't deny basic economic theory. It simply states that the benefit of raising the minimum wage is worth the cost. If you guys want to say the benefit of reducing the supply of farm workers is worth the cost then go right ahead and argue that but please don't label the gawd awful Liberals hypocrits for making the same exact argument you guys are.

Blue, the problem with rais... (Below threshold)

Blue, the problem with raising the minimum wage is that it doesn't increase the purchasing power of the wages, because the artificially rising wage also drives up prices. Therefore, there is no net gain to the employee and in many cases a net loss, as employers are unable to hire as many people for the same payroll budget.

Therefore, at best the minimum wage hikes are mere political pandering, at worst they increase unemployment. But you lefties never wanna get into those arguments, you just sling insults.

Please stop feeding the rag... (Below threshold)
twolaneflash:

Please stop feeding the rage. Walk away from the childish tantrum on display here. Refuse to be an audience to its irrational destructive antics. Without attention, the spoiled brat will wear itself out on the floor, alone.

Leeward is a nautical term referring to the direction from which the wind is blowing. Please, stop letting blowhard determine the course of this ship; trim sail, or turn on the engine. Responding to this taunting wind is driving the dialogue in a leeward circle, getting nowhere.

Engaging a fool in reasoned discourse does not elevate the fool. It only reassures the fool that their knowledge is the limit of all men, and makes you the object of a fool's derision.

But you lefties never wa... (Below threshold)

But you lefties never wanna get into those arguments, you just sling insults

That is kind of an ironic complaint when the post itself purports to tell us what the "typical liberal idiots" think without telling us what the wicked smart conservatives think about lowering the supply of farm workers.

Blue Neponset,It's... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Blue Neponset,

It's cause and effect. You could raise the wages and replace the farm workers rather than keeping the wages criminally small and lowering the supply.

With the former suggestion you get an added bonus that the new, legal workers will pay taxes on their wages.

Take-down of the day:... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Take-down of the day:

By the way, Lee, I mentioned this before but apparently you were too busy sticking your nose in the air to check it out... there are exactly five guest worker programs currently in force in the US, including one for "seasonal agricultural" workers. That has not changed with the failure of Teddy Kennedy's bill. So farms can still get their immigrant workers under existing laws.

heh. indeed.

"the benefit of raising ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"the benefit of raising the minimum wage is worth the cost"

Not to most Americans, only to Democrats.

There are only 2 "benefits" to raising the minimum wage.

(1) Millions of peole become unemployable and are forced into the welfare system and thus become likely Democrat voters.

(2) Wages of union members go up so the union bosses can confiscate more money from the useful idiots to donate to Democrats.

So only the Democrats benefit in any way from increases in the minimum wage, and they don't care that it is very detrimental to everyon else.

"Leeward is a nautical t... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"Leeward is a nautical term referring to the direction from which the wind is blowing."

ROFLMAO!

So true!

Blue, I think you missed Pa... (Below threshold)

Blue, I think you missed Paul's point too. We have illegal immigrants working now. Let's go just with those who are farm laborers to simplify it; aside from the fact that it stays with the actual topic.

* Let's say Farm X has 30 illegals picking lettuce.

* Let's even say they are paid minimum wage (even though we know they all aren't. Some are even paid a little more, but I'm trying to keep this simple or we'll have to get into whether or not payroll taxes are paid on these wages and a whole host of other things)

* That cheap labor has kept the price of lettuce down.

These are just facts. Okay so far?

* Now most Democrats want to legalize these people AND raise minimum wage.

Logically speaking, will this keep the price of lettuce down? And how is this equated to "conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries"?

I know you said, "It simply states that the benefit of raising the minimum wage is worth the cost." That's debatable, but the complaint lodged at Wizbangblue is not saying that at all. And THAT is what's being addressed.

It's cause and effect. Y... (Below threshold)

It's cause and effect. You could raise the wages and replace the farm workers rather than keeping the wages criminally small and lowering the supply.

You are totally right about that but the question before us is, will that increase in wages result in an increase in produce prices? I agree with the gang at Wizbang Blue that it will raise the price of produce. I also don't think it is going to be easy or inexpensive to get native born Americans to pick produce.

The bottom line for me is that we need migrant workers to come to the US and pick produce. Either we find a way to get them into the country legally or we get used to the idea of paying more for produce.

>* Now most Democrats want ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

>* Now most Democrats want to legalize these people AND raise minimum wage.

>Logically speaking, will this keep the price of lettuce down? And how is this equated to "conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries"?


----------

Another contender for take down of the day.

The bottom line fo... (Below threshold)
The bottom line for me is that we need migrant workers to come to the US and pick produce. Either we find a way to get them into the country legally or we get used to the idea of paying more for produce.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Blue? I pointed out earlier in this very thread here that there are five guest worker programs already, INCLUDING ONE FOR "SEASONAL AGRICULTURAL" WORKERS!!!!!

Now, what part of that did you not comprehend?

Paul, Lee has had a bad wee... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Paul, Lee has had a bad week this week. His arguments have been slapped down again and again, to a point where he is a punchline now. He, of course, thinks he's relevant, but we know better.

Blue Neo, what part of guest worker programs now in existance do you not get? If lettuce goes up, we buy it or don't. Gas goes up, we buy it or not. Do YOU not know eco101? ww

"Is it possible that the... (Below threshold)

"Is it possible that the gawd awful Liberals are right about their supply and demand argument? If the supply of migrant farm workers goes down then the cost or that labor will increase resulting in higher prices for the consumers of produce."

That may happen, but actually Paul's article cites the current worker shortage and the resulting food left in the fields unpicked, not higher wages, as the cause behind current higher prices.

A local cherry farmer from neighboring Southwestern Washington state has only been able to find 10 workers to pick next week's cherry harvest, when at least 60 workers are needed for example. Most of these cherries might just rot on the vine because of a severe lack of migrant workers created by the climate of fear of an immigration raid because of political pressures from conservatives.

But Wizbang Paul, the Clown Putz of Blog Posts, is too damned stupid and dishonest to recognize that (because it's true, of course, and Paul blocks the truth from his vicinity).

He's unable to argue against the points Hooson makes, so he invents a strawman and attacks the strawman with his favorite breakfast cereal spoon. Now look, Paul, it's all over the floor... bad boy!

No wonder most of the conservatives left here on Wizbang! are the trolls like Paul who are stuck in full-blown 'liberal derangement syndrome.' Look at the crap they have to read....

Blue Neponset:<blockq... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Blue Neponset:

>You are totally right about that but the question before us is, will that increase in wages result in an increase in produce prices? I agree with the gang at Wizbang Blue that it will raise the price of produce. I also don't think it is going to be easy or inexpensive to get native born Americans to pick produce.

Yes, I believe it will raise the price. I'll pay $3.23 instead of $2.75 without any qualms though, especially if a large financial burden is removed from our system due to illegal workers who don't pay taxes, absorb local budgets for schooling and healthcare and send all their money to Mexico.

As far as getting a native born Americans to pick crops...it doesn't strike me as a problem. My example was coal miners over at Wizbang Blue, but if you've ever watched Dirty Jobs on Discovery channel, you'll see all sorts of worse and more difficult jobs than picking crops being done by our citizens.

"... because of a severe... (Below threshold)

"... because of a severe lack of migrant workers created by the climate of fear of an immigration raid because of political pressures from conservatives."

Oh my God! They can't even get illegals to pick cherries because of the "climate of fear" of being punished for breaking the law? Oh the humanity!

If the five guest worker programs are inadequate, then they need to be addressed on their merits. Not "solved" by the near indiscriminate granting of a permit to work that the now-dead immigration bill proposes. But this disingenuous carping about fear of being arrested for working illegally is a strawman if I ever saw one.

"As far as getting a nat... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"As far as getting a native born Americans to pick crops...it doesn't strike me as a problem."

This is anecdotal, but in my area we have many fruit and vegetable farms and most of the farmers are complaining this year about a shortage of workers. Yet we have a large city with a 27% unemployment rate right in the middle of all those farms. The problem is that most of those unemployed adult Democrat voters would rather just collect their entitlements than do something productive and contribute to society.

The data is convincing that... (Below threshold)
twolaneflash:

The data is convincing that the economic cost to America of illegal immigration is in the neighborhood of enormous. The depression of wages in all the blue-collar trades is something I have watched for decades, up-close-and-personal. I have seen family members driven from construction jobs by swarms of illegals, who befoul the landscape with their living standards and habits. Sheetrocking, painting, and carpentry helped pay my way through medical school when my GI Bill ran out, but those jobs are not available for Americans at a living wage because the illegals have reset "the minimum wage" and eliminated employers' liabilities/responsibilites. I have watched the quality of work, once a source of great pride to the American worker, descend to shoddy, often dangerous levels due to the ignorance, and lack of accountability, of the "new worker class". I've seen the quality of life for families of skilled tradesmen decline to poverty level as they stubbornly held onto their American values, but were betrayed by their own countrymen for a few pieces of silver.

There is a human cost each illegal brings to America and it has been paid for decades by the most common of Americans, costing them and their families opportunities, dreams, hopes. Minimum wage is not a serious issue in the overall problems of this invasion of America and her neighborhoods. The number of workers who even start that low is small, and they don't stay at that wage for long.

Language, culture, crime, disease are a few of the threats to America these invaders bring with them. That they are criminals the moment they set foot on American soil is an absolute. That a finite number of people in American government have decided that the borders will not be secured, that the illegals will become citizens, that a "living wage" will be based on "the new American worker",and that the American people will take it and like it, just means there are a finite number of politicians and bureaucrats who need removing from their public jobs. Hopefully, America will elect a hard-core group of patriots, perhaps with GWOT military experience, who will build the fences, encourage self-deportation, eliminate the anchor-baby loophole, put troops on the border.

Git 'er done, Larry! We've put up with the consequences of this government's immigration policy long enough. As the song goes: "Now that my life is so prearranged, I know that it's time for a cool change.".

* Now most Democrats wan... (Below threshold)

* Now most Democrats want to legalize these people AND raise minimum wage.

Logically speaking, will this keep the price of lettuce down? And how is this equated to "conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries"?

Raising the wages of farm workers will raise the price of produce.

Reducing the supply of farm workers by rounding up all the illegal workers picking produce and deporting them will raise the wages of farm workers and that will raise the price or produce.

As a group, Liberals, IMO, are ok with paying more for produce if they know that the people picking the produce are being treated fairly. It seems to me that, as a group, Conservatives, are ok with paying more for produce it they know that the people picking the produce are here legally. Both groups are making value judgements on what they are willing to pay for something that they care about.

¡No puedo trabajar en su pa... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

¡No puedo trabajar en su país debido a su clima represivo del miedo!


Do you have a reading co... (Below threshold)

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Blue?

Yes, I do C-C-G and as a result I am going to stop reading and responding to your comments. Feel free to stop reading and responding to my comments I hope that helps.

P. Bunyan:Kinda ma... (Below threshold)

P. Bunyan:

Kinda makes you wonder just how well run the unemployment compensation program is if any significant number of these people are receiving checks. It seems to me that those jobs that are available should be offered to those on the unemployment rolls and if they are capable and they refuse, they should be removed from the rolls.

But unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Ahh, I see... Lee ignores t... (Below threshold)

Ahh, I see... Lee ignores the point that there is already a seasonal agricultural guest-worker program, and Blue says he's not going to read my messages so that he can't learn about the existing seasonal agricultural guest-worker program.

I guess they just don't want to admit that their hyperbole is 110% wrong, as usual.

I thought 'Liberals' wanted... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

I thought 'Liberals' wanted business who hired illegal aliens to be punished ? My, my so many contradictions from the mental smurf crew at 'Blue'.

"As a group, Liberals, I... (Below threshold)

"As a group, Liberals, IMO, are ok with paying more for produce if they know that the people picking the produce are being treated fairly. It seems to me that, as a group, Conservatives, are ok with paying more for produce it they know that the people picking the produce are here legally."

I can tell you that's incomplete from the conservative stand point, but fair enough. Conservatives are just as concerend with people being treated fairly.

Now try to convince Lee of that.

If they had the ability to ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

If they had the ability to see the big picture and understand the consequences that come with any action, they wouldn't be Democrats.

So, is Lee admitting that a... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

So, is Lee admitting that a minimum wage hike will lead to an increase in prices across the board?
-=Mike

"Conservatives are just ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"Conservatives are just as concerend with people being treated fairly"

I'd say more so.

The leftists are more concerned with feeling that they're doing something good and appearing that they're doing something good than with actually doing something good.

Mike SC: "So, is Lee adm... (Below threshold)

Mike SC: "So, is Lee admitting that a minimum wage hike will lead to an increase in prices across the board?"

Why don't we ask him?

Oh wait - that's me...

Generally, it depends on the industry sector, labor pool, etc, MikeSC. With regards to agriculture, my guess is that the wages we'll have to pay to get someone to do the hard, back-breaking work of picking our produce will be higher than minimum wage levels, and therefore the minimum wage will be irrelevant.

The increased cost will be the result of a shrinking labor pool (as Crickmore documented), not wage pressure from the minimum wage.

The leftists are ... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:
The leftists are more concerned with feeling that they're doing something good and appearing that they're doing something good than with actually doing something good.

Precisely. Well meaning, but utterly useless gestures.

To wit:
wizbangblog.com/2007/04/09/nice-to-see-they-have-some-limits.php#529640

Lee Ward:The incr... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

Lee Ward:
The increased cost will be the result of a shrinking labor pool (as Crickmore documented), not wage pressure from the minimum wage.

So the increase will be from natural market forces and not government fiat ? The horrors!

Heralder,Si, hombr... (Below threshold)
twolaneflash:

Heralder,

Si, hombre! Self-deportation. I like it, a lot!

As for the "climate of fear" you "don't want to work in", muy bueno, vaya con Dios, y con su amigos! No devuelva!

_Mike_: "So the increase... (Below threshold)

_Mike_: "So the increase will be from natural market forces and not government fiat ?"

Well, yes - if you want the characterize the CHANGE in market forces precipitated by the immigration reform defeat, and the effect that'll have on the shrinking labor pool in agriculture that is resulting, as being "natural market forces" -- I suppose.

But this is a change from the "natural market forces" that have been at work in this industry for decades -- so I think it is fair to point the finger at the change that is causing this shift - and not just wave it off as "Natural Market Forces", _Mike_.

I said: "The increased c... (Below threshold)

I said: "The increased cost will be the result of a shrinking labor pool (as Crickmore documented), not wage pressure from the minimum wage."

should be: "The increased cost will be the result of a shrinking labor pool (as Paul Hooson documented), not wage pressure from the minimum wage." Apologies to Mr. Hooson.

The thing causing the shift... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

The thing causing the shift is a demand that the employers actually pay a legal minimum wage.

Do you think they hire illegals for the heck of it?
-=Mike

So Lee, you admit raising m... (Below threshold)
Paul:

So Lee, you admit raising minimum wage causes inflation?

Yes or No Lee... Yes or No.

There is a shortage of pick... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

There is a shortage of pickers because they are taking non seasonal jobs. When they disappear, believe me, they will be glad to pick fruit and vegetables.

Paul, it is obvious that Lee has a deep seated hatred for you. You must have taken him to the wood shed a few times. In reality, he bores me, as I am sure others on this blog. ww

And Lee, Blue, and all the ... (Below threshold)

And Lee, Blue, and all the rest of the nattering nabobs of negativity from the left forget that if the workers go away, someone will invent a machine to harvest the crops. The only reason they haven't yet is because it's not economically feasible at this time with the illegal workers coming in.

>Paul, it is obvious that L... (Below threshold)
Paul:

>Paul, it is obvious that Lee has a deep seated hatred for you. You must have taken him to the wood shed a few times. In reality, he bores me, as I am sure others on this blog. ww

Actually he bores me and I've mostly ignored him until a few days ago...

Him calling the Dixie Chicks censorship but saying the taking conservatives off the airwaves was not censorship just sent me on a mission. Nobody that willfully stupid should be allowed to speak unchallenged.

I don't hate him... He's not important enough for me to get that involved... But I will smack the logical shit out of him for fun and jollies.

Yes I know it is like picking on a third grader... call me a bully.

But I will smack the log... (Below threshold)

But I will smack the logical shit out of him for fun and jollies.

Let me know when you start.

Blue Neponset, you've alrea... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Blue Neponset, you've already proven yourself as idiotic as Lee (That's why I quit answering you) when I pointed you to an answer but you claimed you did not see it.

You see, it is too talk a task to convince a crazy loon he is a crazy loon... after all he's a crazy loon.

The objectives of these posts to to highlight the crazy loons for everyone else to mock. -- And they've been very effective at that.

If you'd like to jump up and join the crazy loon club too, that's fine, the more the merrier. I'd just look at who you're laying down with before you get fleas.

Only a fool would call himself Lee's intellectual equal.

Being a liberal means logic... (Below threshold)

Being a liberal means logic and facts don't enter in to the picture.

Not to let facts get in the... (Below threshold)
jim:

Not to let facts get in the way of a good argument, but there are many studies indicating that increasing minimum wages increase prosperity all around.

Here's a couple, if anyone wants to read 'em -

http://www.cbpp.org/529ormw.htm

Minimum Wage Increases Can Boost Wages for Welfare Recipients Moving to Work

http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf

States With Minimum Wages Above the Federal Level Have Had Faster Small Business and Retail Job Growth

And the logic is simple, as well as born out by the studies:

a) people who are paid better work harder
b) people who are paid better can do better, and require less federal aid - thus saving the state and taxpayers money
c) people who are paid better can spend more, thus directly putting it back into the economy.

That last is an especially important point. The difference between supply-side and demand-side economics, is that when the rich have extra money, they may reinvest it in the US. Or, they may spend it overseas, or simply let it sit in a bank.

But when someone in the middle-class or lower-class gets more money, they will almost certainly spend it, out of need. So that money goes straight back into the economy, right away.

And here's another study, r... (Below threshold)
jim:

And here's another study, re: minimum wage increases and it's lack of impact on the number of jobs:

"Minimum wages and employment: a case study of the fast-food industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania: reply. David Card and Alan B. Krueger."

http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/90051397.pdf

"In 1994, Card and Krueger compared employment rates in the fast-food industry in New Jersey (which increased its minimum wage) and Pennsylvania (which did not). The now-classic study concluded that the increase had no negative impact on employment."

Some more related articles and studies are here:

http://www.raiseminwage.org/id3.html

Great news Jim... So that p... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Great news Jim... So that post on Blue was full of shit... right?

could you please add a bloc... (Below threshold)
kat:

could you please add a block commentator feature so I don't have to take a shower everytime I accidentally come across a Lee Ward comment? Or even if the name is at the top I could see it before reading the drivel that comes out of his keyboard. Good gawd, his mind is a waste.

Well, from a quick scan of ... (Below threshold)
jim:

Well, from a quick scan of it, that article seems to be reporting the news. There are these rising prices in the area of the source article, and the rising prices are linked to less available illegal labor.

There are other factors listed in the article the Wizbang Blue article cites, too - rising gas prices means that driving to Michigan (the area of the source article) can be too costly; and there's also just competition from other jobs that pay better.

But there seems little doubt that migrant labor, with a high degree of illegal immigrants, backs up the agricultural industry in this country. Which is one of many reasons there was such a push on the recent immigration bill - our businesses love that cheap illegal labor.

And not having that cheap labor would be a blow - which is one of many reasons why there's such little enforcement of the laws we have, on the CEO's whose companies hire aliens.

Which is one of many reasons why that bill was a transparent joke.

So, no, I wouldn't say that article was full of shit. Food prices overall very may well rise as a result of no available illegal labor.

Me, I'm ambivalent on illegal immigration. I think it drives down wages for everyone, which is bad; but I also think America is strong because of hundreds of years of constant immigrants, and it grows stronger ***because of***, not in spite of, immigrants. So, it's a complicated issue.

Blue Neponset, you've al... (Below threshold)

Blue Neponset, you've already proven yourself as idiotic as Lee (That's why I quit answering you) when I pointed you to an answer but you claimed you did not see it.

Paul,

You got nothing man. Your posts seem to be a few sentences of name calling followed by more name calling in the comments section and then declaring victory. I think that is idiotic. Anyone can call people names. Why don't you make an argument for a change? My guess is....you can't.

So an increase in number of... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

So an increase in number of burger meisters is an indicator of increasing prosperity.

Isn't there an arguement the left likes to use about the Bush economy and burger flippers?

As for the other links... like asking NAMBLA to provide reasons to lower the age of consent.

About farm worker wages. M... (Below threshold)
knothead:

About farm worker wages. My father-in-law employs many seasonal farm workers during the summer. His weekly payroll can exceed $250,000.00 per week. All workers are paid minimum wage OR by the amount that is picked which ever is higher. Most workers earn in excess of $125 per day. The price paid to the farmer has NO relationship to the cost to plant, grow, and harvest the crop. Price is determined by the market which in some years can be extremely high, but in other years make it prohibitive to even harvest the crop. Please keep in mind that very year you have the sunk cost of planting, irrigating, frost protection,and fertilizing before you have any idea of what you can sell the produce for, and that price can be lower than your sunk cost. Even if the weather co-operates.

Jim channels John Kerry....... (Below threshold)
Paul:

Jim channels John Kerry....

>it's a complicated issue.

So "it's a complicated issue" that maybe -perhaps- we don't really know that Conservatives are raising Grocery prices by opposing the immigration bill because that increases costs... BUT... It is absolutely cut and dry that even though raising the minimum wage also raises costs, it does not cause inflation.

And you wonder why I call you an idiot.

>You got nothing man. Your ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

>You got nothing man. Your posts seem to be a few sentences of name calling

No no no... nothing could be further from the truth... And I don't expect you to understand this, because after all you're not that smart. But for everyone else I'll explain...

When Lee says "But Wizbang Paul, the Clown Putz of Blog Posts," THAT is name calling.

It has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

In my posts, I provide the fact to WHY people are morons then I properly label them as such.

For example, you are a moron for not seeing this difference without me explaining it.

Get it now?

Get it now?... (Below threshold)

Get it now?

I got it before, Paul. Your kind is a dime a dozen. People like you never seem to make an argument about a real subject, you pretend to be an expert on what other people think. You are a one-note, my unimaginitive friend. Make an argument without calling someone a moron or an idiot or a liar and I will be impressed. Otherwise...yawn.

>Paul. Your kind is a dime ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

>Paul. Your kind is a dime a dozen.

Oh no... I'm a one of a kind, trust me.

>People like you never seem to make an argument about a real subject,

Minimum wage, immigration and hypocrisies in politics are not real subjects? I apologize.

>You are a one-note, my unimaginitive friend.

unimaginitive? You're new here.

>Make an argument without calling someone a moron or an idiot or a liar and I will be impressed.

But when I can do both why should I limit myself?

===========

OK now that I had fun with you....

Did you notice you did a whole bunch of name calling while you called ME out for name calling?

Irony really is lost on the dumb.

"so us white pe... (Below threshold)
John in CA:
"so us white people might have to pay more for groceries"

Glad you're not disputing Paul Hooson's point that conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries. That would be disingenuous of you --...

Posted by: Lee Ward at June 29, 2007 10:34 AM

This argument about the lack of cheap labor driving up the cost of food is from the same people who espouse the use of corn based ethanol as one of the cures for energy dependence and global warming.

So, we take a food, a staple food, corn, and convert it into fuel. Which is in fact driving up the cost of food. And not only for Americans, but countries around the world who rely more on corn as a staple of their diet than even we do.

Yet, no outrage from the socialists over this piss poor alternative energy source that has been legislated upon us in the pursuit of political popularity and appeasement to agri-business.

It seems irrefutable; the socialist just don't care about the brown people.

"... because of a sever... (Below threshold)
marc:

"... because of a severe lack of migrant workers created by the climate of fear of an immigration raid because of political pressures from conservatives."

How convenient!

It's a conservative problem but when asked "Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the issue of immigration?" 20% of Dems and 23% of independents say they approve.

Not to mention only 41% of Republicans approve. Wouldn't the 47% of Republicans that disapprove bush's immigration plan NOT be contributing to the "climate of fear?"

BTW Lee, when will you stop being a thief and fly the straight and narrow?

Did you notice you did a... (Below threshold)

Did you notice you did a whole bunch of name calling while you called ME out for name calling?

My apologies, Paul. I usually know better than to get in a flame war with people like you. Every few months, however, I seem to have to relearn that lesson. Thank you for helping me relearn that lesson and have a wicked great day.

"BTW Lee, when will you s... (Below threshold)
Rob LA Ca.:

"BTW Lee, when will you stop being a thief and fly the straight and narrow?"

Sure as Sh**. What did I tell ya , Crriminal frauds. Face it Lee , you are what you are .

Marc - When you bend over a... (Below threshold)

Marc - When you bend over and kiss my *ss, marc. Now go polish your slot cars and leave the adults alone.

Re: wages and farmworkers, and the cost of groceries, aren't farm workers paid by the box, and not paid an hourly wage? Not sure, just asking he adults on the thread, but I believe that's true.

and again, for you immature troll jackasses that never bothered to read the post that Paul didn't bother to read either before he linked to it -- the upward price of groceries we're seeing now is the result of a labor shortage. It has nothing to do with minimum wage - go read it, I dare you...

Blue Neponset and Jim - thanks for suffering through the troll abuse so common on Wizbang coment threads these days -- there used to be intelligent Master Debaters here on Wizbang - now there's just conservative right wing grade-school masturbators... that never bother to read the articles, and don't have a clue what the big words mean anyway.

Seeing Paul post an asshat blog post, then do his inane victory dance after his arguments are throughly thrashed in the comment thread, is one of life's little pleasures. I second Blue Neponset's sentiments - thanks for entertainment, Paul - and our traffic stats appreciate all of these links -- keep it up, you schmuck.

Have a nice weekend all - getting ready for the 4th?

>Seeing Paul post an asshat... (Below threshold)
Paul:

>Seeing Paul post an asshat blog post, then do his inane victory dance after his arguments are throughly thrashed in the comment thread, is one of life's little pleasures. I second Blue Neponset's sentiments - thanks for entertainment, Paul - and our traffic stats appreciate all of these links -- keep it up, you schmuck.

Little LEE if my arguments where thrashed, would you mind answering my questions?

I thought so.

Marc - When you bend ove... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Marc - When you bend over and kiss my *ss, marc. Now go polish your slot cars and leave the adults alone.

Hmm, good response to figures presented.

It's that kind of deep analysis you can ONLY get at Wizbang Blue!!!

and again, for you immature troll jackasses that never bothered to read the post that Paul didn't bother to read either before he linked to it -- the upward price of groceries we're seeing now is the result of a labor shortage.

Uh huh. Of course it is. So, Lee, enlighten us --- how many of the pickers made minimum wage?

I mean, if the only way to keep employment is by violating the law, why would you support doing so?

Blue Neponset and Jim - thanks for suffering through the troll abuse so common on Wizbang coment threads these days -- there used to be intelligent Master Debaters here on Wizbang

Still are. You're still quite defective, though.

now there's just conservative right wing grade-school masturbators... that never bother to read the articles, and don't have a clue what the big words mean anyway.

Says the guy who admits that forcing companies to pay minimum wage to workers will increase the price of groceries --- but ALSO argues that minimum wage doesn't impact prices.

I second Blue Neponset's sentiments - thanks for entertainment, Paul - and our traffic stats appreciate all of these links -- keep it up, you schmuck.

Just keep in mind --- your site is not there due to any desire to have it there. It was a gift.

You have to live SOLELY off the coattails of a superior site and it bugs you.
-=Mike

So Lee, you admit ... (Below threshold)
John in CA:
So Lee, you admit raising minimum wage causes inflation?

Yes or No Lee... Yes or No.

Posted by: Paul at June 29, 2007 01:32 PM

Now, Paul, you know a liberal can rarely answer a yes or no question. Because, you know, there's the murky middle, shades of gray, nuances.

After all, their heroes, Bill and Hillary, taught them that. "It depends on what the meaning of is, is." Or possibly the response is "I don't recall." So, you would have to first argue about whether inflation really exists as we understand it. And then whether inflation is bad or good. And is it really germane to this debate?

But don't expect a yes or no answer.

So "it's a complicated i... (Below threshold)
jim:

So "it's a complicated issue" that maybe -perhaps- we don't really know that Conservatives are raising Grocery prices by opposing the immigration bill because that increases costs... BUT... It is absolutely cut and dry that even though raising the minimum wage also raises costs, it does not cause inflation.

Paul, I'm really sorry that reality is so gosh-darn complicated, that it can't be fit into your worldview.

I know this must be some sort of liberal plot somehow. I'll start working on it. Really. (does that mean God is a liberal? nooooooo!)

But the studies indicate what they indicate.

In the meantime, until you or I are elected God of the Universe, reality is unlikely to simplify just for you.

Come on Jim, link to some m... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Come on Jim, link to some more socialist studies that misreprentent facts and cherry pick data to prove your point!

"a) people who are paid ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"a) people who are paid better work harder"

Actually people who work harder are paid better. NOT the other way around. Only you, Castro, Kim Jung Il, Chavez and the rest of the leftists in this world would think otherwise.

But as a leftist-socialist I can understand that your religion forbids you to accept the truth.

So P. Bunyan, your position... (Below threshold)
jim:

So P. Bunyan, your position is that I must be socialist, because I think people who are paid more work better? And link to posts to prove it?

Now, someone who was actually a socialist would want everyone to be paid *the same*** - which is quite different from what I'm saying.

Fascinating that you manage to graft that onto what I'm saying, though.

P. Bunyan, since you're so ... (Below threshold)
jim:

P. Bunyan, since you're so sure I'm cherry-picking, you're welcome to link to some articles yourself.

Then we could actually get into a substantive discussion, or something crazy like that.

there used to be intell... (Below threshold)

there used to be intelligent Master Debaters here on Wizbang - now there's just conservative right wing grade-school masturbators

If you do not like it so much... go away.

Lee:Marc - Whe... (Below threshold)
marc:

Lee:

Marc - When you bend over and kiss my *ss, marc. Now go polish your slot cars and leave the adults alone.

OH... this is TOO easy!!!

You're ALL ASS, where would I start?

"a) people who are paid... (Below threshold)
marc:

"a) people who are paid better work harder"

Tell that to the "19 percenters" in Congress who just voted themselves a raise and haven't done jack shit all year.

"If you do not like it s... (Below threshold)

"If you do not like it so much... go away."

Watching Paul drag this blog into the mud over the last week or so has been great fun. It's that whole "watching a train wreck in slow motion" kid of fun. Besides, we were just busy minding our own business at Wizbang Blue, making intelligent blog posts and staying on top of the days events, and Paul and Jay decided they wanted to take us on. So be it.

So far, all they've accomplished is that they've increased our traffic stats while they've alienated their own readers greatly -- all except the troop of right wing putz trolls you see on the comment thread above.

Seriously -- they've succeeded in turning a once-thriving community of liberals and conservatives who were up on the news and could debate the issues of the day -- and turned it into a cesspool of poo-flinging troll monkeys whose idea of an intelligent comment on an issue is "If you do not like it so much... go away."

But there's a conundrum here. So long as Paul and Jay continue to link to our stories and invite us in to thrash them periodically their blog has less news and current affairs pieces, and more and more "look at what Wizbang Blue said today" stoopidity like this post, and meanwhile we're adding readers and increasing our stats.

And that's the problem. Would me "going away" stop that? No, Paul in particular is off his bloody, friggin' rocker. All you have to do is read his posts and then follow his comments down the thread to realize that. This guy has a major screw lose, and everyone who reads his crap knows it. He's in full-blown "Lee Ward Derangement Syndrome" mode, and like the true buttmunch he is, he's not going to let go.

And the intelligent ones leave, and the troll stay and drag this place down further - and it isn't my doing, it's Paul and Jay's doing... and you want me to leave?

Silly troll...

And Paul, since you aren't real smart and are probably going to delete this comment anyway once you get your Mom to explain the big words to you -- was there a question you had for me? I mist have missed it - please repost the question.

thanks! :)

Once again Lee blames his o... (Below threshold)

Once again Lee blames his own failures on others.

Good lefty, Lee. Gooooood lefty.

So far, all they'v... (Below threshold)
John in CA:
So far, all they've accomplished is that they've increased our traffic stats while they've alienated their own readers greatly...

The increased traffic stats is more akin to the slowing down to watch a traffic accident, that's all it is. But leeward, you go ahead and believe it's out of interest for the liberal tripe you post at wizblues.

Has wizblue busted the 1.5 comments average per post yet? Still half the comments posted from wizblues contributors attempting to fluff your stats? It is pathetic to see you wizblues contributors commenting on each other's posts and comments, self congratulatory in nature, praising your your brilliance and insights. P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C.

Jim,If you believe... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Jim,

If you believe that the government should mandate what an employer pays an employee, that is socialism. Maybe not full blown socialism, but socialism nonetheless.

Do you think my linking to articles is going is going to prove something? Articles & studies can be, and are biased either way. Do you not belive that there are studies and articles that refute the ones you linked to? To me it's more on the level of common sense and a basic understanding of human nature.

I'm not saying the government should have no control whatsoever over businesses, but only to the smallest degree necessary for the common good (like safety & environmental regulations). Most everything beyond that does more harm than good. The minimum wage is one of those things that does more harm than good and should not be part of the government's role.

And the Republicans are guilty of screwing things up and making them worse too, but in different ways.

Watching Paul drag this ... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

Watching Paul drag this blog into the mud over the last week or so has been great fun. It's that whole "watching a train wreck in slow motion" kid of fun. Besides, we were just busy minding our own business at Wizbang Blue, making intelligent blog posts and staying on top of the days events, and Paul and Jay decided they wanted to take us on. So be it.

Um, I'll bite. Where? I guess "intelligent posts" is a subjective term.

That you are a leech on a better site is clear to all.
-=Mike

That you are a lee... (Below threshold)
That you are a leech on a better site is clear to all.

Except, perhaps, himself. But perhaps he does realize it and just won't admit it.

Only God and he know for sure.

Did anyone besides me note ... (Below threshold)

Did anyone besides me note that Blue just had to do a trackback to this post?

One wonders why they thought that was necessary, or even desirable. I have some suspicions, but I won't air them right now, perhaps later.

Who gives a crap if there i... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Who gives a crap if there is not enough workers to pick lettuce or cherrys? I don't eat either. If you want it bad enough, you will pay the price. So what's the beef?-or is that lettuce.

P.S. wee wee lee lee wardie from bluie lied. He said he was going to prepare for the 4th. But he came back. Ha ha ha ,wee wee lied so he is a liar.
(of coarse we knew that)

Who gives a crap i... (Below threshold)
John in CA:
Who gives a crap if there is not enough workers to pick lettuce or cherrys?

I agree. I don't like cherries either. Also iceberg lettuce isn't all that great anyway. Should eat romaine and other types. Much higher in nutrients than iceberg lettuce.

Lee, once again, was comple... (Below threshold)

Lee, once again, was completely successful in missing my point entirely.

My comment was not designed to address the issue. In fact, it was designed to address Lee's flagrant attempt at derailing the comment thread, Lee's general-purpose bitching about some place that no one is making him go or read, and Lee's abhorrent trolling (which, after a fashion, makes him calling anyone else a "troll" more than just your basic level of irony).

Of course, all of that went right over his head, but that is completely expected.

Besides, we were just busy minding our own business at Wizbang Blue

We can only wish that were the case. Instead, you had to drag your half-brained ass over here, making non-sensical, trolling, avoiding-the-issues, dodging-the-direct-questions posts left and right, furthering the decay you are so inanely blaming on everyone else but yourself. Be a man, stand up, and take responsibility for your stupidity, instead of pulling the standard liberal ripcord and blaming everyone else, your parents, your upbringing, your teachers, your boss, and your pet gerbil (who is, no doubt, firmly shoved up your ass at the moment).

all they've accomplished is that they've increased our traffic stats

More the shame. You half-ass dimwits hardly deserve the webpage that was so graciously granted to you. Of course, your recognition of that fact, no doubt, factors into your incessant lashing out at those who are responsible for the boon. Irony, thy name is Lee Ward.

meanwhile we're adding readers and increasing our stats.

Because "readers" and "stats" are the only things that matter when it comes to weblogging, Lee. Jesus Fucking Christ, man, those "readers" and "stats" have only been going to Blue to witness just how stupid, inane, self-centered, and single-minded you haters are. But, of course, your statistics could not tell you that, now could they? Only being focused on the numbers as you are, you are only concerned with the traffic, and not the cause. Well, I hate to break your achy little heart, there, Lee, but those people are only visiting your sacrosanct little Wizbang-granted corner of the Internet to laugh and point at the monkeys in the zoo. Nothing more.

Would me "going away" stop that?

In a word, "yes". Any questions?

He's in full-blown "Lee Ward Derangement Syndrome"

Holy Christ... would you please stop it with the [insert word(s) here] Derangement Syndrom crap? It is like your new "LIAR!!!!!" mantra, and getting old about as fast.

Silly troll...

Irony, thy name... oh, wait, you already knew that. Sorry.

Oh, and Lee, since your reading comprehension is obviously low enough that you missed the question entirely (sorry, I was being gracious... I could just call you a self-righteous bastard who could not face up to the answer because it would deface his entire argument... would that work better?), Paul asked you this question:

So Lee, you admit raising minimum wage causes inflation?
Yes or No Lee... Yes or No.

... And I think it is about high damned time you answer it, mocking jackassery or not.

Face it, Lee, you are nothing more than a carnival side show... you are not the main attraction... hell, you do not even rank as highly as the bearded lady. The people of Wizbang only tolerate you because you are the height of entertainment - the punching dummy that just keeps on bouncing up to take another roundhouse to the noggin. Now, I do not fully understand why the authors of Wizbang here are so focused on ridiciculing each and every post found over at Blue... Every one of those posts are more than worthy of that ridicule, mind you, but it is just not healthy, not useful, and not at all entertaining/interesting/constructive. Weblogs that exist only to make fun of other weblogs are just no fun at all. That said, they are making fun of those posts for a reason. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you might dig your head out of your upper intestine, get a clue, and get on with your life.

Regardless, it has been quite enjoyable pulling the wool out from over your eyes, and the rug out from under your feet. Rest assured, this is the last time it will ever happen - you are beneath me, and not at all worthy of my time. Consider the few minutes I wasted fisking your mindless little ass a gift, and leave it at that. If I actually bothered to invest some serious time, you might not recover from it.

uh wee wee did you just get... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

uh wee wee did you just get your ass kicked? Again!!

The real reason that we hav... (Below threshold)
spurwing plover:

The real reason that we have high grocery prices is becuase of the eco-freaks opposing drilling for oil which of course drive up the transportation prices and drives up the grocery prices its come around to that and lets not forget the oil companies and OPEC

If you believe that the ... (Below threshold)
jim:

If you believe that the government should mandate what an employer pays an employee, that is socialism. Maybe not full blown socialism, but socialism nonetheless.

No, it is not socialism. It simply is not.

Controls on corporations by the government is not socialism, any more than controls on individuals by government is socialism.

It really is that simple.

Do you think my linking to articles is going is going to prove something? Articles & studies can be, and are biased either way. Do you not belive that there are studies and articles that refute the ones you linked to?

Actually, I don't believe that there are. Prove me wrong.

To me it's more on the level of common sense and a basic understanding of human nature.

Well, here's the thing - I think the way I think is common sense and based on a basic understanding of human nature, as well.

So here we are, both thinking we're right, both thinking it's just common sense - and both of us having different interpretations of the world.

The only way to actually reach an agreement, is to see what the facts are. Since we don't have the time to go with the facts, we have to go with what we can determine is the most impartial view of them, made by people who have the time to be experts.

Because you and I can very easily be wrong. Anyone can have bias, and no one is free of it; we just have to go with the best probabilities of expertise and lack of visible bias.

The minimum wage is one of those things that does more harm than good and should not be part of the government's role.

That is your opinion, that fits with your ideology.

I am presenting you with facts and studies that go against your ideology.

And the Republicans are guilty of screwing things up and making them worse too, but in different ways.

Well, everybody screws things up, and no one is perfect, and certainly no one party, let alone ideology, is perfect. On that we can certainly agree.

The real reason that we ... (Below threshold)
jim:

The real reason that we have high grocery prices is becuase of the eco-freaks opposing drilling for oil which of course drive up the transportation prices and drives up the grocery prices its come around to that and lets not forget the oil companies and OPEC


Oh yeah, sure. It's the Leftists' fault that gas prices are up.

I guess you're talking about the ANWR oil, that the GOP has this inexplicable erection for?

You do realize that if drilling there started tomorrow, we wouldn't see oil from it for 15 years or more, right?

You do know that we could save one ***million*** barrels of fuel every year, every year, just by requiring higher fuel efficiency standards, right?

But it sure is a shame those Leftists are terrorizing those poor oil companies into raising their prices. I'm sure increased profits have nothing to do with it; Exxon is just that scared of Joan Baez.

Oh, and I miswrote - the to... (Below threshold)
jim:

Oh, and I miswrote - the total decrease in consumption could be as much as one million barrels a ***day***.

You do realize tha... (Below threshold)
You do realize that if drilling there started tomorrow, we wouldn't see oil from it for 15 years or more, right?

So what? That will mean that we're that much closer to "energy independence" than we are if we never drill there.

I thought you lefties were all about "energy independence."

Better review your talking points before trying to answer this one.




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