"so us white people might have to pay more for groceries"

Glad you're not disputing Paul Hooson's point that conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries. That would be disingenuous of you -- instead you wrap your usual childish pulp around the idea -- without disproving it -- so you can resort to calling liberals 'idiots.'

Stunning analysis, there...

Actually, no one is "driving up prices," it's called the law of supply and demand.

By the way, Lee, I mentioned this before but apparently you were too busy sticking your nose in the air to check it out... there are exactly five guest worker programs currently in force in the US, including one for "seasonal agricultural" workers. That has not changed with the failure of Teddy Kennedy's bill. So farms can still get their immigrant workers under existing laws.

But you never let the facts get in the way of your LIES!!!!! do you, Lee?

"Glad you're not disputing Paul Hooson's point that conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries."

Glad you're not disputing that you don't give a shit about brown people lee and want to exploit them for cheap labor so you can get your ovaltine and tampons cheaper.

come on D-Hoggs,

That's a low blow about Lee and tampons.

He's talking about oranges. Orange Kool-Aid, to be more specific.

I see dumb people....

Lee, your hypocrisy slip is showing again. Until you stop wrapping your own "childish pulp" around those things you cannot prove and using it to call everyone else choice names, you will continue to be a hypocrite everytime you accuse someone else of it.

Lee will be right back, he's over at DU getting his next response..thank you for waiting..*S*

EXACTLY Oyster.

Posted by: Lee Ward at June 29, 2007 10:47 AM
That's role - not roll, bacon-breath. But don't let reality break that soft, warm cocoon of self-deluding bullshit you nutcakes wrap yourselves in each morning, SnoutMan, oink on!

Posted by: Lee Ward at June 29, 2007 10:34 AM
-- instead you wrap your usual childish pulp around the idea -- without disproving it -- so you can resort to calling liberals 'idiots.'

Not even 15 minutes can he wait to prove, once again, what an unapologetic hypocrite he is.

Paul, for the most part Liebrals remain disconnected, safely ensconced in the insular Washington cocoon. Like most control apparatus their biggest blind spot is group speak.

There is no doubt that the whole debate was extremely educational. But the most striking aspect is the wide diverse coalition that formed behind the loud people who led the charge -- Conservatives picked up the flag and showed the way.

Building on that is the next challenge. There is at least one Conservative candidate who seems to have noticed.

Is it possible that the gawd awful Liberals are right about their supply and demand argument? If the supply of migrant farm workers goes down then the cost or that labor will increase resulting in higher prices for the consumers of produce. That seems to be Eco 101 to me.

Also, the gawd awful Liberal's argument about the minimum wage doesn't deny basic economic theory. It simply states that the benefit of raising the minimum wage is worth the cost. If you guys want to say the benefit of reducing the supply of farm workers is worth the cost then go right ahead and argue that but please don't label the gawd awful Liberals hypocrits for making the same exact argument you guys are.

Blue, the problem with raising the minimum wage is that it doesn't increase the purchasing power of the wages, because the artificially rising wage also drives up prices. Therefore, there is no net gain to the employee and in many cases a net loss, as employers are unable to hire as many people for the same payroll budget.

Therefore, at best the minimum wage hikes are mere political pandering, at worst they increase unemployment. But you lefties never wanna get into those arguments, you just sling insults.

Please stop feeding the rage. Walk away from the childish tantrum on display here. Refuse to be an audience to its irrational destructive antics. Without attention, the spoiled brat will wear itself out on the floor, alone.

Leeward is a nautical term referring to the direction from which the wind is blowing. Please, stop letting blowhard determine the course of this ship; trim sail, or turn on the engine. Responding to this taunting wind is driving the dialogue in a leeward circle, getting nowhere.

Engaging a fool in reasoned discourse does not elevate the fool. It only reassures the fool that their knowledge is the limit of all men, and makes you the object of a fool's derision.

But you lefties never wanna get into those arguments, you just sling insults

That is kind of an ironic complaint when the post itself purports to tell us what the "typical liberal idiots" think without telling us what the wicked smart conservatives think about lowering the supply of farm workers.

Blue Neponset,

It's cause and effect. You could raise the wages and replace the farm workers rather than keeping the wages criminally small and lowering the supply.

With the former suggestion you get an added bonus that the new, legal workers will pay taxes on their wages.

Take-down of the day:

By the way, Lee, I mentioned this before but apparently you were too busy sticking your nose in the air to check it out... there are exactly five guest worker programs currently in force in the US, including one for "seasonal agricultural" workers. That has not changed with the failure of Teddy Kennedy's bill. So farms can still get their immigrant workers under existing laws.

heh. indeed.

"the benefit of raising the minimum wage is worth the cost"

Not to most Americans, only to Democrats.

There are only 2 "benefits" to raising the minimum wage.

(1) Millions of peole become unemployable and are forced into the welfare system and thus become likely Democrat voters.

(2) Wages of union members go up so the union bosses can confiscate more money from the useful idiots to donate to Democrats.

So only the Democrats benefit in any way from increases in the minimum wage, and they don't care that it is very detrimental to everyon else.

"Leeward is a nautical term referring to the direction from which the wind is blowing."

ROFLMAO!

So true!

Blue, I think you missed Paul's point too. We have illegal immigrants working now. Let's go just with those who are farm laborers to simplify it; aside from the fact that it stays with the actual topic.

* Let's say Farm X has 30 illegals picking lettuce.

* Let's even say they are paid minimum wage (even though we know they all aren't. Some are even paid a little more, but I'm trying to keep this simple or we'll have to get into whether or not payroll taxes are paid on these wages and a whole host of other things)

* That cheap labor has kept the price of lettuce down.

These are just facts. Okay so far?

* Now most Democrats want to legalize these people AND raise minimum wage.

Logically speaking, will this keep the price of lettuce down? And how is this equated to "conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries"?

I know you said, "It simply states that the benefit of raising the minimum wage is worth the cost." That's debatable, but the complaint lodged at Wizbangblue is not saying that at all. And THAT is what's being addressed.

It's cause and effect. You could raise the wages and replace the farm workers rather than keeping the wages criminally small and lowering the supply.

You are totally right about that but the question before us is, will that increase in wages result in an increase in produce prices? I agree with the gang at Wizbang Blue that it will raise the price of produce. I also don't think it is going to be easy or inexpensive to get native born Americans to pick produce.

The bottom line for me is that we need migrant workers to come to the US and pick produce. Either we find a way to get them into the country legally or we get used to the idea of paying more for produce.

>* Now most Democrats want to legalize these people AND raise minimum wage.

>Logically speaking, will this keep the price of lettuce down? And how is this equated to "conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries"?

----------

Another contender for take down of the day.

The bottom line for me is that we need migrant workers to come to the US and pick produce. Either we find a way to get them into the country legally or we get used to the idea of paying more for produce.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Blue? I pointed out earlier in this very thread here that there are five guest worker programs already, INCLUDING ONE FOR "SEASONAL AGRICULTURAL" WORKERS!!!!!

Now, what part of that did you not comprehend?

Paul, Lee has had a bad week this week. His arguments have been slapped down again and again, to a point where he is a punchline now. He, of course, thinks he's relevant, but we know better.

Blue Neo, what part of guest worker programs now in existance do you not get? If lettuce goes up, we buy it or don't. Gas goes up, we buy it or not. Do YOU not know eco101? ww

"Is it possible that the gawd awful Liberals are right about their supply and demand argument? If the supply of migrant farm workers goes down then the cost or that labor will increase resulting in higher prices for the consumers of produce."

That may happen, but actually Paul's article cites the current worker shortage and the resulting food left in the fields unpicked, not higher wages, as the cause behind current higher prices.

A local cherry farmer from neighboring Southwestern Washington state has only been able to find 10 workers to pick next week's cherry harvest, when at least 60 workers are needed for example. Most of these cherries might just rot on the vine because of a severe lack of migrant workers created by the climate of fear of an immigration raid because of political pressures from conservatives.

But Wizbang Paul, the Clown Putz of Blog Posts, is too damned stupid and dishonest to recognize that (because it's true, of course, and Paul blocks the truth from his vicinity).

He's unable to argue against the points Hooson makes, so he invents a strawman and attacks the strawman with his favorite breakfast cereal spoon. Now look, Paul, it's all over the floor... bad boy!

No wonder most of the conservatives left here on Wizbang! are the trolls like Paul who are stuck in full-blown 'liberal derangement syndrome.' Look at the crap they have to read....

Blue Neponset:

>You are totally right about that but the question before us is, will that increase in wages result in an increase in produce prices? I agree with the gang at Wizbang Blue that it will raise the price of produce. I also don't think it is going to be easy or inexpensive to get native born Americans to pick produce.

Yes, I believe it will raise the price. I'll pay $3.23 instead of $2.75 without any qualms though, especially if a large financial burden is removed from our system due to illegal workers who don't pay taxes, absorb local budgets for schooling and healthcare and send all their money to Mexico.

As far as getting a native born Americans to pick crops...it doesn't strike me as a problem. My example was coal miners over at Wizbang Blue, but if you've ever watched Dirty Jobs on Discovery channel, you'll see all sorts of worse and more difficult jobs than picking crops being done by our citizens.

"... because of a severe lack of migrant workers created by the climate of fear of an immigration raid because of political pressures from conservatives."

Oh my God! They can't even get illegals to pick cherries because of the "climate of fear" of being punished for breaking the law? Oh the humanity!

If the five guest worker programs are inadequate, then they need to be addressed on their merits. Not "solved" by the near indiscriminate granting of a permit to work that the now-dead immigration bill proposes. But this disingenuous carping about fear of being arrested for working illegally is a strawman if I ever saw one.

"As far as getting a native born Americans to pick crops...it doesn't strike me as a problem."

This is anecdotal, but in my area we have many fruit and vegetable farms and most of the farmers are complaining this year about a shortage of workers. Yet we have a large city with a 27% unemployment rate right in the middle of all those farms. The problem is that most of those unemployed adult Democrat voters would rather just collect their entitlements than do something productive and contribute to society.

The data is convincing that the economic cost to America of illegal immigration is in the neighborhood of enormous. The depression of wages in all the blue-collar trades is something I have watched for decades, up-close-and-personal. I have seen family members driven from construction jobs by swarms of illegals, who befoul the landscape with their living standards and habits. Sheetrocking, painting, and carpentry helped pay my way through medical school when my GI Bill ran out, but those jobs are not available for Americans at a living wage because the illegals have reset "the minimum wage" and eliminated employers' liabilities/responsibilites. I have watched the quality of work, once a source of great pride to the American worker, descend to shoddy, often dangerous levels due to the ignorance, and lack of accountability, of the "new worker class". I've seen the quality of life for families of skilled tradesmen decline to poverty level as they stubbornly held onto their American values, but were betrayed by their own countrymen for a few pieces of silver.

There is a human cost each illegal brings to America and it has been paid for decades by the most common of Americans, costing them and their families opportunities, dreams, hopes. Minimum wage is not a serious issue in the overall problems of this invasion of America and her neighborhoods. The number of workers who even start that low is small, and they don't stay at that wage for long.

Language, culture, crime, disease are a few of the threats to America these invaders bring with them. That they are criminals the moment they set foot on American soil is an absolute. That a finite number of people in American government have decided that the borders will not be secured, that the illegals will become citizens, that a "living wage" will be based on "the new American worker",and that the American people will take it and like it, just means there are a finite number of politicians and bureaucrats who need removing from their public jobs. Hopefully, America will elect a hard-core group of patriots, perhaps with GWOT military experience, who will build the fences, encourage self-deportation, eliminate the anchor-baby loophole, put troops on the border.

Git 'er done, Larry! We've put up with the consequences of this government's immigration policy long enough. As the song goes: "Now that my life is so prearranged, I know that it's time for a cool change.".

* Now most Democrats want to legalize these people AND raise minimum wage.

Logically speaking, will this keep the price of lettuce down? And how is this equated to "conservatives' actions are driving up the price of groceries"?

Raising the wages of farm workers will raise the price of produce.

Reducing the supply of farm workers by rounding up all the illegal workers picking produce and deporting them will raise the wages of farm workers and that will raise the price or produce.

As a group, Liberals, IMO, are ok with paying more for produce if they know that the people picking the produce are being treated fairly. It seems to me that, as a group, Conservatives, are ok with paying more for produce it they know that the people picking the produce are here legally. Both groups are making value judgements on what they are willing to pay for something that they care about.

¡No puedo trabajar en su país debido a su clima represivo del miedo!

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Blue?

Yes, I do C-C-G and as a result I am going to stop reading and responding to your comments. Feel free to stop reading and responding to my comments I hope that helps.

P. Bunyan:

Kinda makes you wonder just how well run the unemployment compensation program is if any significant number of these people are receiving checks. It seems to me that those jobs that are available should be offered to those on the unemployment rolls and if they are capable and they refuse, they should be removed from the rolls.

But unfortunately, that's not how it works.

Ahh, I see... Lee ignores the point that there is already a seasonal agricultural guest-worker program, and Blue says he's not going to read my messages so that he can't learn about the existing seasonal agricultural guest-worker program.

I guess they just don't want to admit that their hyperbole is 110% wrong, as usual.

I thought 'Liberals' wanted business who hired illegal aliens to be punished ? My, my so many contradictions from the mental smurf crew at 'Blue'.

"As a group, Liberals, IMO, are ok with paying more for produce if they know that the people picking the produce are being treated fairly. It seems to me that, as a group, Conservatives, are ok with paying more for produce it they know that the people picking the produce are here legally."

I can tell you that's incomplete from the conservative stand point, but fair enough. Conservatives are just as concerend with people being treated fairly.

Now try to convince Lee of that.

If they had the ability to see the big picture and understand the consequences that come with any action, they wouldn't be Democrats.

So, is Lee admitting that a minimum wage hike will lead to an increase in prices across the board?
-=Mike