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Choose Genocide

Jules Crittenden summarizes the New York Times' Iraq plan which favors a likely resulting genocide to pursuing victory in Iraq.

Genocide preferred. NYT should be applauded for its honesty. An outcome that is "even bloodier and more chaotic ... further ethnic cleansing, even genocide. Potentially destabilizing refugee flows ... power grabs" is better than continuing the path of progress toward eliminating al-Qaeda, exposing and hopefully acting against Iran's influence, training increasingly effective Iraqi troops, working with a nascent democratically elected government in its fits and starts...

OK, let's review. Bloody chaos and genocide preferable to what's going on now. What's going on now not discussed in any inconvenient detail. NYT has retreat all figured out, will shares plans with Pentagon. Fighting terrorism works better from a distance. Democrats are "foolish" but so is NYT. Iran, Turkey, etc., should all step up to the plate and get Israel to build a fence around Iraq. And finally, Bush lied, people died.

Makes sense to me. Out now!

Jules goes through the New York Times' editorial point by point (he has more patience than me) and shows how incredibly illogical it is. Read it all. Jules also makes the point that the New York Times does not give any detail about what is happening in Iraq now. These are the inconvenient truths those on the left will not address. I get some pretty loopy emails saying I love killing and murder because I think we should finish the mission in Iraq and actually allow those in our military to do their jobs. They always include sweeping statements about Iraq being a hopeless total and complete disaster and say I am delusional if I think there is anything good happening in Iraq. I sometimes respond to the less profane emails by providing links to mainstream news items, milblog posts and reports from people like Michael Yon who are reporting progress in the region. Want to know what the reaction is? Most often silence. I also get "Bush is a murderer" statements in response. Occasionally, but very rarely, someone will actually address the content of the reports I cite. A small few acknowledge that we are rounding up and killing al Qaeda in Iraq, but say it doesn't matter because there will never be a government in Iraq that will keep the peace after we are gone so it doesn't make any sense to do anything there now because in the end it will all be a failure. Thank God these people do not make up a sizable portion of our military. Unfortunately, a growing number of them do make up our Congress.

There is an old saying that goes something like "You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your facts," meaning that the facts are the facts no matter what, even though people may interpret their meaning differently. Lately I am seeing more and more cases of those arguing against pursuing victory in Iraq by stating that everything there is already lost and nothing but bad news is coming from the region. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi declared the surge a failure before all the troops were even in place, much less before they had a chance to do what they were put there for. For those who want to argue for surrender in Iraq I ask that they at least acknowledge the progress that is being made there now. If things are as bad as they say (and I know there is plenty of bad news coming from the region), then what harm is there to acknowledge the good news, too? At the very least that is what is owed to those putting their lives on the line to fight there. I just don't understand why those on the left are so afraid to talk about the progress that is being made. If they think it is just a waste of time and effort and lives, then they can say that, but at least acknowledge that the men and women of our military are experiencing some success. Then if they want to argue that genocide is preferable to victory in Iraq, I will at least believe they are being honest.

Update: Don Surber writes about the NYT's "applause-o-meter" argument and reminds us the NYT supports plenty of unpopular things. He then points out just how ridiculous the NYT's Iraq plan is.

This is madness. It is lunacy to suggest that UN peacekeepers drawn randomly from other countries and thrown into the maelstrom with no leadership skills or experience will do a better job than 150,000 professional soldiers with 4 years experience in Iraq.

Africa burns while UN blue helmets look askance and indulge themselves in child porn and petty theft. That is the Times prescription for Iraq.

The chaos would result in zero civil liberties for 25 million Iraqis. The Times clamored for extraconstitutional rights for 500 or so jihadists at Gitmo -- men captured on the battlefield. Now the Times is willing to forfeit any civil justice system at all in Iraq.

Update II: Tom Donnelly looks at dissonance at the NYT when they report succes in Iraq on one page and then declare we must leave Iraq on another.

Update III: More from Crittenden on the NYT front page story warning dire consequences to leaving Iraq.


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Comments (93)

The anti-American left (whi... (Below threshold)

The anti-American left (which, unfortunately, includes many elected officials these days) MUST keep up their mantra about Iraq being "unwinnable." The instant they admit ANY chance of success, they undermine their argument to cut and run away like scared children.

The enemies we are fighting today in Iraq are al Qaeda and Iran. They will not stop fighting if we leave Iraq - they were sworn to kill us long before this war, and will not stop trying just because we run and hide.

Iran has been declaring war against us since they invaded our sovereign territory in 1979. They have sponsored terrorist acts against us and our allies ever since - including the Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon and the Khobar Towers attack. We just don't seem to believe them. Perhaps once they make nuclear bombs they will be able to get our attention?

Al Qaeda seeks to reestablishment the Caliphate and make their radical version of Islam mandatory for all (it is questionable whether they would even tolerate a submissive dhimmi).

Withdrawing from Iraq only encourages and emboldens these enemies, and potentially supplies them with the huge oil resources of Iraq with which to finance their terrorism. Since it would also portend disaster for the Iraqis, there is no sensible argument for withdrawal - even if one believes the invasion was a mistake in the first place. We are where we are.

The left doesn't want America to win ANYWHERE. They want to see our noses bloodied, which is why they can barely contain their glee at news of American losses, and those of our allies.

I wish the Right would be... (Below threshold)

I wish the Right would be a lot more honest as well.
I see no shortage of right-wing blogs brimming with hatred of Islam, and cheering the deaths of Muslims. They do not seem to be concerned with the poor Iraqi civilans, unless they were to convert to Christianity, that is.

I hear a lot of Republicans supporting torture, too. Innocent people are only innocent until you torture them enough to "admit" their "crimes", apparently. Yes, there is deep concern for human rights in Iraq, isn't there? Torture among the Iraqi forces has become rampant, but I don't hear any Republicans bringing that up. That's odd, considering their deepest concern is the poor Iraqi civilians, rule of law, and democracy.

I remember Bush Sr. and the Republicans looking the other way when Saddam gassed the Kurds. Bush Sr. provided Saddam with intelligence, since Iraq were the "good guys" at that time as they fought a long and bloody war against Iran. The Bush Sr. Administration defended Saddam against the U.N's investigations of human rights abuses in Iraq. Now you guys are all about human rights and those poor Iraqi civilans that will die before "we" can get the oil out.

I remember the shrill Republican cries when Clinton went in to Kosovo to stop the massacre there. That was "nation-building" and we should not involve the military in something like that. I must have missed the concern about innocent civilians then. It seems strange that dissenting against a sitting President during wartime was okay at that time, though. Didn't Dubya campaign against "nation-building" in 2000?

Oddly, I don't hear a lot of Republican concern about human rights or innocent civilian deaths in countries that don't have oil, though. In fact, it seems that Republicans aren't concerned at all about bad things that happen in our allies countries', either. Ever heard of Turkish human rights violations? Is Saudi Arabia democratic? How 'bout those crazy Guatemalans, eh?
You want honesty? You say you respect honesty? I say "prove it". I guess 9//11 didn't change "everything"; Republicans seem to lie just as much and about the same things as before.

Todd, you seem to see thing... (Below threshold)

Todd, you seem to see things that I have missed with respect to these unnamed Republicans.

With respect to concern for "innocent civilians", you reference Clinton's operations in Kosovo ( which still haven't ended ) but you omit to mention that the supposed genocide ( that supposedly justified it ) ongoing in Kosovo turned out to be at best an exaggeration if not outright fabrication.

I find your comment to be more posturing than anything else however without examples of these awful dishonest callous Republicans.

Yes, Todd, please provide u... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Yes, Todd, please provide us with verifiable links to all this hatred.

I anticipate either spin or an echoing silence. Any wagers on which one we'll get?

Mmmmkay ... as I'm understa... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Mmmmkay ... as I'm understanding this, America and the UN can completely absolve itself of all responsibility with respect to murder, terror, genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. simply by withdrawing all our troops, then sitting down at the negotiating table and encouraging Iraq's warring factions and neighboring nations to all play nice together. And after we've given it the old college try, regardless of the outcome, we are henceforth absolved of all responsibility for the welfare of the Iraqi people.

On the other hand, as long as America has a military presence in Iraq and is physically combating evil-doers and killers, then we are completely responsible for each and every death that occurs in Iraq, regardless of the circumstances.

Uh, makes sense to me.

Of course, Mike, that is al... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Of course, Mike, that is all dependent upon us anointing Hillary as Queen of America. If we elect a (gasp!) Republican President again, then we're at fault no matter what we do.

Remember, being a lefty is easy:

Democrat = good
Republican = bad

It's that simple.

Todd's drive-by spew also i... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Todd's drive-by spew also included the obligatory: "I hear a lot of Republicans supporting torture, too."

Doesn't matter what the topic is. Immigration, the economy, kite-flying, whatever. I was kinda surprised he didn't throw in our known cruelty to fuzzy-bunnies and puppies!

Is Todd the best we can do for a troll today? *sigh*

Of course the NY Times want... (Below threshold)
Brian G.:

Of course the NY Times wants genocide. The want the Dems to cry over the next year about how Bush failed and got millions killed, so vote for Democrats. What's a few million lives and the loss of American pride when there are elections to be won?

That's the bottom line, Bri... (Below threshold)

That's the bottom line, Brian.

"I hear a lot of Republi... (Below threshold)

"I hear a lot of Republicans supporting torture, too."

Yeah Todd,
I was just down at the local Republican supermarket and a bunch of us were discussing torture while blocking the doors so African Americans couldn't get in.
Our budddy Jim Bob, who repairs Whites Only water fountains, suggested torturing poor Iraqi citizens unless they submitted to a forced conversion to Christianity. A fight almost broke out when Cooter got into an argument with Billy Rob over the fact that we wasted so much time and millitary resources on Haiti, Grenada, El Salvadore, Nicaragua and Panama just cuz they didn't have no damn oil. Billy Rob said we shoulda invaded Germany again because them Krauts were making poison gas for the thugs in the desert. Thankfully Cooter's brother ended the argument when he reminded everone that the Germans wuz makin' that gas for the camel jockeys that were killing Joooos with it too. Everyone was satisfied then, except Addy (his real name is Adolph) because he wanted to know why no Catholics weren't killed too.

Speakin of RC's, Joos and oil, just when things started to settle down and we thought we could get back to the business of being Republicans and starving the poor and all, you know who walks in? None other than a brother ( I'm good at rhymes...at times! I crack myself up!) Bobby Sheets Byrd! With just one more guy there we coulda had us an official meeting and conducted some official business.

Ole Bobby, he's big name famous now but he was just one of us back in the day. He told us not to worry about no innocent civilians and torture and the such ( we wuzzn't worried but some of us suspect he was dispensin political wisdom) because a famous American President turned his back on the same type of innocent civilians just at the time when we asked them for their support. I couldn't understand it all, his words being all political wizidry and the such (hey, my sister just said that was a pun! is that a good thing?) but it had something to do with some pigs in a bay and soldiers getting all butchered and cut up on a beach. Cooter said they got castroed or something, but I thought that's what we did to cattle to make them behave.

Anyway Todd, come on down to the republican supermarket anytime (You white ain't ya?). I'll spot you an RC and a Moonpie neighbor.

Your buddy,

Amon T. A. Bustya

C-C-G: I don't actually boo... (Below threshold)
Todd Dugdale:

C-C-G: I don't actually bookmark those blogs because they pretty much disgust me. One that springs to mind is Foehammer's Anvil, though, and that's only because of the artwork on the site. If I intended to lie, though, I could have done a lot better, but you probably won't change your mind when I do show you the links. I expect either echoing silence or spin. I see about three or so of the right-wing anti-Islam blogs a week, so they're out there. I'll come back and post the links as I come across them. I don't exactly seek them out. I'll append a few I find to this post, but it might be a few days or so.
I have also heard right-wing talk show hosts say tha we bomb the Qa'aba to show the Muslims we "mean business". I have heard several Republicans tell me in no uncertain terms that Iraq is great because it's a war where most the people dying are Muslims. Other conversations in discussion boards have brought out similar remarks, and no Republican has ever distanced themselves from them. Perhaps these remarks sound similar to those you may have already heard from others firsthand.
Just for the record, are any of you willing to distance yourselves from this anti-Islamic hatred?

Mike: the point is that there is a pretty sorry history wrt human rights and innocent civilian deaths in the Republican Party. It sounds pretty hollow to use that an as excuse to maintain the surge.

Justrand: Hey, I didn't expect to have to hang out waiting for a reply, as far as the "drive-by" remark goes. Do you deny that Bush and Cheney have basically okayed the use of torture on suspects, while re-defining the meaning of the word? Do you deny that we set up secret prisons where people were tortured? Again, my personal experience is that the vast majority of Republicans support torture of any "suspect" in the WOT. Also, torture in Iraqi prisons has been documented and the Interior Minister has admitted to it in a rather hand-wringing manner. A report just came out a few days ago about the situation in Kurdistan prisons. http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38402
Complete silence from the party so concerned about human rights, however.

It doesn't bother me so much that so many Republicans seem to be so willing to look the other way about human rights, innocents being massacred, lack of democracy, etc. It's when they pretend that their concern for these things is genuine that I have to spaek out.

I see Todd that most of you... (Below threshold)

I see Todd that most of your examples still are unsourced, and the only ones I even start to recognize are distortions of the actual arguments.

You write "Do you deny that Bush and Cheney have basically okayed the use of torture on suspects, while re-defining the meaning of the word? Do you deny that we set up secret prisons where people were tortured?"

Yes, I deny it. And your claim that the word torture is being redefined by Republicans is an especially offensive misrepresentation since it is the Bush administration opponents who have redefined torture to mean anything and everything. Your own coinage of "basically okayed" shows that even you are slipping in your assertions and distortions.

So your claims about "so many" Republicans again remain just baseless.

Amon T. A. Bustya...SPLENDI... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Amon T. A. Bustya...SPLENDID!

Todd: "Again, my personal experience is that the vast majority of Republicans support torture of any "suspect" in the WOT."

when you put "personal experience" down as your basis for cubby-holing "the vast majority of Republicans" as closet-torturers it kinda takes your creds away...ya know?

Either meet more Republicans and find out what they REALLY feel...or STFU on the subject. (or find some actual by-God reference!)

And btw...define "Torture".

Hint: pantyhose on the head is NOT "torture"...nor is making someone listen to Barbara Streisand records non-stop. Though the Streisand routine would get closer! :)

C-C-G: I don't act... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:
C-C-G: I don't actually bookmark those blogs because they pretty much disgust me.

And spin wins!

Winners please report to the betting booth to collect your winnings.

Todd, there's a thing in all modern browsers called the "history." You can go back and see what sites you've visited recently even if you haven't bookmarked them. So you could easily find these sites, if they existed.

Unless, of course, you told the browser to keep 0 days in history because you don't want Dubya's eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil henchmen seeing that you visit DU. (You probably don't care if they see that you visit "adult" sites.)

In short, you're full of Donkey dung, and you've been exposed for the fraud and liar that you are. Go create another sock puppet and come back to this thread and defend "Todd." now.

As to Todd's point of right... (Below threshold)

As to Todd's point of right wing Islam hate sights. Many include LGF in that category, when all LGF attempts to do is highlight the evil of the Islamist jihad movement.

Todd Dugdale:t... (Below threshold)
marc:

Todd Dugdale:

the point is that there is a pretty sorry history wrt human rights and innocent civilian deaths in the Republican Party. It sounds pretty hollow to use that an as excuse to maintain the surge.

That knife cuts both ways doesn't it? Remind me again how many Rowandians were "saved" under Clinton's watch.

Do you deny that we set up secret prisons where people were tortured?

Do you deny the rendition program was started by Clinton?

Again, my personal experience is that the vast majority of Republicans support torture of any "suspect" in the WOT.

Your "personal experience" means dog squat without your definition of torture.

Also, torture in Iraqi prisons has been documented and the Interior Minister has admitted to it in a rather hand-wringing manner.

But how can THAT BE? We're the OCCUPIER, the OPPRESSOR, the new IRAQI DICTATOR!

Pffftttt!!!!...

Lorie, I'll acknowledge the... (Below threshold)

Lorie, I'll acknowledge the surge might be making things somewhat better. And when the surge is fully in place, things might improve even more.

But so what? It isn't going to make things right, just as sending more police into a high-crime area doesn't turn the neighborhood into an area that will stay peaceful once the police leave. The surge isn't going to turn the Iraqis into people who, borrowing a phrase, love their kids more than they hate their enemies.

And even if it did, making Iraq right isn't worth the lives of American soldiers. yeah, it would be nice if the Iraqis weren't so set on killing one another (as well as anyone getting in their way), but while it is sad that there'd be genocide if we left, keeping that from happening is not something our military should be used for. Notwithstanding the kool-aid drinkers who see Al Qaeda behind every IED, every American soldier who dies in Iraq trying to keep them from killing one another is one less American soldier available to protect America from our real enemies.

stevestrum:but... (Below threshold)
marc:

stevestrum:

but while it is sad that there'd be genocide if we left, keeping that from happening is not something our military should be used for.

When the hell hasn't it been used that way?
Well... except for when it wasn't.

Like pussy-footing around in Africa (thanks slick willy!) or bailing out on Vietnam.

And BTW stevestrum:<p... (Below threshold)
marc:

And BTW stevestrum:

And even if it did, making Iraq right isn't worth the lives of American soldiers.

Except "making Iraq right" would go a lot further earning trust in the Middle East vice turning tail and running.

Seems to me much condemnation was heaped on Bush I for doing just that when he left the Kurds to wither in the wind after the first Gulf war.

And that condemnation was restricted to Iraqi's it was and is a widely held opinion across the Middle East.

stevesturm Well, a... (Below threshold)

stevesturm

Well, at least you keep what was once good company: Steve, meet Charles Lindbergh and Joseph Kennedy.

just as sending more police into a high-crime area doesn't turn the neighborhood into an area that will stay peaceful once the police leave

If Guliani wins the nomination, prepare to hear a rebuttal to that remark every hour on the hour. Just out of curiosity: how many times have you visited NYC between 1976 and 2000? Note: if you are an NYC city dweller you are automatically disqualified for the same reason Rudy was elected against your wishes...you have not been mugged yet. Ever heard heard of the Broken Windows policy?


is one less American soldier available to protect America from our real enemies.

Who are our real enemies?

As to the Kool Aid drinkers...who are they?

Steve Drang and Sturm....have you read the most recent prnouncement from AQ #2 regarding Iraq? I suspect not.

So, Steve, are you trying t... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

So, Steve, are you trying to say that saving Iraqi lives is not worth American lives?

We are fighting out ... (Below threshold)

We are fighting out real enemies in Iraq. In addition to Al Queda, who have been our enemies for at least a decade and a half, the Baathist deadenders have been our enemies for just as long.

Robin makes a very valid po... (Below threshold)

Robin makes a very valid point regarding the Baathists who have, very effectively, remained off the debate's menu for the most part. More comment on this would help.

Meanwhile, all <a href="htt... (Below threshold)
marc:

Meanwhile, all is not lost despite what the NYT thinks.

The big news on the streets today is that the people of Baqubah are generally ecstatic, although many hold in reserve a serious concern that we will abandon them again. For many Iraqis, we have morphed from being invaders to occupiers to members of a tribe. I call it the "al Ameriki tribe," or "tribe America."

I've seen this kind of progression in Mosul, out in Anbar and other places, and when I ask our military leaders if they have sensed any shift, many have said, yes, they too sense that Iraqis view us differently. In the context of sectarian and tribal strife, we are the tribe that people can--more or less and with giant caveats--rely on.

And note how few reporters were there. The vast majority of them arrived AFTER the main battle was over.

Hey, C-C-G, I've looked at ... (Below threshold)
Todd Dugdale:

Hey, C-C-G, I've looked at about 150 blogs in the past two days, so that's not an easy task.
Here's two I got from by browser history:

foehammer.net
http://neoconcommandcenter.blogspot.com/

Well, folks, I really don't carry around a tape recorder and post conversations I have with people on the web. I also fail to memorise an awful lot of facts and URLs, which you guys must do an awful lot of. Maybe I should ask the people I work with, the musicians I play with, and every assorted person I encounter to sign an affidavit of their comments. While you guys seem to be different from a lot of the Republicans I know, it seems that mainly you've just found a different way to be assholes. I think I've been pretty strightforward here, and at least I post with my own name, in contrast to most of you here.
Here's a pdf of the "torture memo:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf
This gives the WH definition of torture, which is pretty much that you can't cause organ damage. Want to cut off someone's finger? okay.
Also see here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/25/AR2005102501388.html
Here's the WH saying it's okay if the CIA torures:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/1025detainee-abuse25.html

I wash my hands of you. You are not interested in rational discourse. Perhaps you'd like me to provide a cite that Bush is actually President?
Nobody has addressed the other issues I raised, either. Of course, I didn't actually prove that we supported Saddam when he was at war with Iran. I didn't even prove Iran exists. Here's a wikipedia link, which is all the research I'm willing to do for you lot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war

So there, chortle away. The good news is that you guys can't convince anyone with even a marginal grasp of current events that you are right.

Todd, first of all Wikiped... (Below threshold)

Todd, first of all Wikipedia is not a reliable source for anything. Secondly, the support for Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war is a red herring - irrelevant to any discussion of current events.

But as an example of the misrepresentations you have engaged in, you cite the Arizona Republic article on McCain's legislation as "Here's the WH saying it's okay if the CIA torures:..."

That's just a flat out lie on your part. Lying isn't rational discourse, its just lying. The article states that the White House wanted the CIA exempted from McCain's bill - 'an amendment to a $440 billion military spending bill that would ban the use of "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" of any detainee held by the U.S. government' - a bill that prohibited conduct that just isn't "torture" in any but the most ridiculous of definitions. And this is exactly what we've been saying, that your claims are misrepresentations of the actual debates going on.

It is you who are not interested in rational discourse, as you are interested in propaganda only.

Does anyone else see a disc... (Below threshold)
marc:

Does anyone else see a disconnect in Todds latest?

This ("I wash my hands of you. You are not interested in rational discourse.") follows shortly after This ("it seems that mainly you've just found a different way to be assholes.")

Todd is simply another left... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Todd is simply another leftist propagandist. The left didn't care much about the civilians killed by the communist in Indochina after the liberal Dems cut off aid to South Vietnam to abandon Indochina to the rule of communism. The killing field of Cambodia claimed about 3 millions deaths. The left was totally silent about it.

Now the left is willing the Iraqui civilians to the mercy of the terrorists and their sponsors in Iran. The left seems to cheer the terrorists on whenever they blow up more Iraqui women and children. Only people like Todd can turn away from these ugly truths about the left with a straight face.

Todd is simply another member of Brian 's club. If Todd truly cares about the civilians, he would have abandoned the left already. The fact that he is here to spout these propaganda shows that he is either duped or willfully ignorant about the shameful history of the left during the cold war and now the GWOT.

Todd, I visited your two si... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Todd, I visited your two sites, and could find many examples of stories about Islamoterrorism, but not demonstrating real hatred. In fact, I did a text search on the front pages and could not find the word "hate" (as in, "I hate Muslims") or "hatred" anywhere.

Is it your contention, therefore, that merely publicizing the terrorist actions of Muslims is "hatred"? That would fit nicely with your... er... "creative" definitions for words, so I suspect that is what's going on here.

Robin, you forgot this part... (Below threshold)
marc:

Robin, you forgot this part. Todd hasn't a clue how the U.S. gov works, he links a WaPo pdf of a Gonzales MEMO as if it were LAW!

And I won't even mention it's from 2002 and FAILS to address the Military Commissions Act of 2006 signed into law in 2006.

Why are so many GOP support... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Why are so many GOP supporters bailing on the war on the eve of Bush's progress report? What do the know? Maybe because over 200 Iraqis died this weekend? Maybe because of Libby? Maybe because Colin tried to talk Bush out of invading? Maybe because Bush lost the war?

The blood is on your hand!

I know marc, Democrats have... (Below threshold)

I know marc, Democrats have been misrepresenting that memo for years now. Its an old meme.

BarneyG, maybe because the ... (Below threshold)

BarneyG, maybe because the moon is in the Seventh House and Jupiter has aligned with Mars.

barneyGRUBBLEW... (Below threshold)
marc:

barneyGRUBBLE

Why are so many GOP supporters bailing on the war on the eve of Bush's progress report? What do the know? Maybe because over 200 Iraqis died this weekend? Maybe because of Libby? Maybe because Colin tried to talk Bush out of invading? Maybe because Bush lost the war?

And maybe because you have ZERO of any substance to add to the conversation you go off on a patented tangent?

The blood is on your hand!<... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

The blood is on your hand!
----------------------------
For supporting the left who was willing to let 3 million people to be slaughtered by the communist in Indochina. The blood is on your hand for support the liberal left who lied on behalf of the genocidal communists who enslaved billions of people and killed at least tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of people. Now the left is willing to abandon the Iraqui people to be slaughtered by the jahadists and their sponsors in Iran/Syria. The NYT, the mouthpiece of the left, prefers genocide in Iraq than American success. People like Barney and Todd can support the left with a straight face and claim to care about civilians in Iraq.

THE former American secreta... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

THE former American secretary of state Colin Powell has revealed that he spent 2½ hours vainly trying to persuade President George W Bush not to invade Iraq and believes today's conflict cannot be resolved by US forces.

"I tried to avoid this war," Powell said at the Aspen Ideas Festival in Colorado. "I took him through the consequences of going into an Arab country and becoming the occupiers."

So what Barney, we had to g... (Below threshold)

So what Barney, we had to go back to Iraq because Colin Powell convince George HW Bush to stop the Gulf War too early. Why should I care about Powell's opinion?

One more thing to add: the ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

One more thing to add: the strategy the terrorists is pursuing right now is simply to blow up more women and children to give the left the fodder for propaganda. So in order to wage their propaganda against Bush, the left and their leaders like Reid/Pelosi have been taking every opportunity to proclaim the war is lost every time the terrorists can blow up more women and children. That 's how the left care for the civilians or the oppressed. I hate to think about these civilians when the left doesn't care about them.

THE former American sec... (Below threshold)
marc:

THE former American secretary of state Colin Powell has revealed that he spent 2½ hours vainly trying to persuade President George W Bush not to invade Iraq and believes today's conflict cannot be resolved by US forces.

And Powell was the chief counsel who advised Bush I not to go back to the UN to authorize continuing Gulf War 1 to it's logical conclusion.

Unseating Saddam,... and preventing over a decade of abuse and billions in excess cash spent of U.S. taxpayer earnings.

and at least I pos... (Below threshold)
and at least I post with my own name, in contrast to most of you here.

Many of us on right wing blogs are reluctant to do that, as using a real, full name makes us susceptible to real, physical threats and attacks from deranged lefties.

John in CA is as close as I'll go in full disclosure. Although, I am also known in some places as Tater Salad.

Lovie, how did: "the left l... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Lovie, how did: "the left let 3 million people to be slaughtered by the communist in Indochina."? Since I am not a 'Dem' or "lefts" I would like to know. Knowing you it should be a good laugh.

ROFL - John.As for... (Below threshold)

ROFL - John.

As for real names, note that Larry Johnson is still posting implied threats.

As for real names, note... (Below threshold)
marc:

As for real names, note that Larry Johnson is still posting implied threats.

That's all Plames "lover" has.

That and implied reality

BarneyG, after the US left ... (Below threshold)

BarneyG, after the US left Southeast Asia, communists are estimated to have murdered several million in Laos, South Vietnam and Cambodia. See RJ Rummels' "Death by Government" or his website.

I am sure that all you on t... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

I am sure that all you on the right will shout-out your displease at Bush's pussy-action of not going after terrorists when he had a clear shot just like you did with Clinton when he did not want to kill children in al Qeada camps?

Remember that Clinton was before 9/11 and this was after Bush pledged to hunt al Qeada down. Read and get mad:

WASHINGTON, July 7 -- A secret military operation in early 2005 to capture senior members of Al Qaeda in Pakistan's tribal areas was aborted at the last minute after top Bush administration officials decided it was too risky and could jeopardize relations with Pakistan, according to intelligence and military officials

Hi ya ToddWe... (Below threshold)

Hi ya Todd

Well, folks, I really don't carry around a tape recorder and post conversations I have with people on the web.

Never worked for me either, neighbor...holding that clicker down on the tiny tape machine, tryin to trick the speaker on the pooter and havin to, what the hellizit, right click, left click, to get a sound. And some people wonder at why we hate Billy Gates!

And that tool bar clicker thingy, gawd how I hate it!!Why, I'd have to memorize stuff without it, but that ole dog don't forget nothin!The wifey checks that thingy ever mornin before she relieves herself....you don't know the sacrifice! That Billy Gates, he ain't got no life! A tool bar thingy with a memory! He wuz standin behind the door when alibis were bein handed out for free!

changing the subject again ... (Below threshold)
marc:

changing the subject again GRUBBLE?

That's hilarious Barney, si... (Below threshold)

That's hilarious Barney, since one of the criticisms of Bush ( false, by teh way ) over the last six years has been that the Bush administration did not consult with its allies.

But then consistency is so limiting, isn't it?

RR, I thought the war was i... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

RR, I thought the war was in Vietnam and not in Laos in Cambodia? Did not Tricky Dick run two elections on ending the war? Didn't Ford actually end the war?

Which one of those republicans actual caused 3-million deaths in countries we weren't fighting a war with?

GRUBBLE, are you really tha... (Below threshold)
marc:

GRUBBLE, are you really that dense or do you just play the part?

Barney, you seem very confu... (Below threshold)

Barney, you seem very confused about the Vietnam war and its aftermath. Go read some decent history. The communist Vietnamese murdered Laotians, South Vietnamese and Cambodians after 1975 - RJ Rummel estimates over a million. Your ignorance of these events notwithstanding.

Why wont any one address my... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Why wont any one address my initial question? You have a number of GOP hard liners jumping the Shark on Iraq on the eve of Bush's WH report on Iraq?

What do they know?

BarneyGRUBBLE... what happe... (Below threshold)
marc:

BarneyGRUBBLE... what happened in Vietnam on April 30, 1975?

And on July 2, 1976? And in the year 1978?
Have you ever heard of the People's Republic of Kampuchea/République populaire du Kampuchea?

Wasting time, marc, Barney ... (Below threshold)

Wasting time, marc, Barney obviously endorses the Times position as Lori and Crittenden note it. They are comfortable with advocating the course of genocide.

barneyGRUBBLEWhy wont a... (Below threshold)
marc:

barneyGRUBBLEWhy wont any one address my initial question?

How would we know? Ask em yourself, I doubt many here have the powers of Kreskin.

I'll hazard a guess though... an election year is just around the corner.

GRUBBLE has no position oth... (Below threshold)
marc:

GRUBBLE has no position other than resident contrarian.

Why wont any one a... (Below threshold)
Why wont any one address my initial question? You have a number of GOP hard liners jumping the Shark on Iraq on the eve of Bush's WH report on Iraq?

GOP hardliners? Which ones would those be?

Voinovich, who cried because he was afraid John Bolton might be confirmed as UN Ambassador.

Warner, who seems to be going a bit daft.

Olympia Snowe, with her lifetime ACU rating of 50. Not that I'm complaining, as that's probably about the best we're going to get from a Republican Senator from Maine.

And then Domenici, who's so, so. Changes his positon because one bereaved parent of a killed soldier says we have to get out of Iraq. Would he change his mind if he heard from ten bereaved parents who said it's a fight that must be won.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't characterize any of them as GOP hardliners. Reliable Republicans, in most cases, yes. Hardliners, no.

Which one of those republic... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Which one of those republicans actual caused 3-million deaths in countries we weren't fighting a war with?
-------------------------------------
It was the Dem congress who cut off the funding to South Vietnam. Take your spin back to the DU. The Dem congress is trying to cut-off funding to Iraq now. The left wants to abandon the Iraqui civilians to the mercy of the terrorists now.

The left is responsible for 3 million deaths in IndoChina. The most notable was the killing field of Cambodia. In VN, 500K people died fleeing VN and in the labor camps. All these deaths can be attributed to the left.

Is the left calling for withdrawal from Iraq now? Now these propagandists tried to deny the left 's calling for withdrawal from VN? These people can spin with a straight face.

Barney was not honest enoug... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Barney was not honest enough to give us link to his info. He is speaking on both sides of his mouth. We have info that AlQ is in Iran. So the left is calling for incursion into Iran now?

RR, I thought the war was i... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

RR, I thought the war was in Vietnam and not in Laos in Cambodia?
-------------------------------------
Barney doesn't know what he is talking about. There was a major military campaign in the summer of 1972 in Laos. The war was fought in Cambodia as well. The communists used Laos and Cambodia as staging areas for their attacks in South VN.

Barney, perhaps we're suppo... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Barney, perhaps we're supporting it because it is working!

The surge is having many positive effects, as you'd know if you turned off NPR and listened to other news sources.

Even the Iraqis, backed by US forces, are willing to fight against Al Qaeda in Iraq (or, as people of Barney's ilk like to call it, "Al Qaeda in Iraq which has nothing to do with Al Qaeda which has nothing to do with Iraq"). That's called progress, Barney.

So what the NY Slimes is really arguing against is against progress in Iraq. They don't want to see us win, because if the US wins, the Party of the Donkey (with their "defeat at any cost" platform) loses.

I can't tell you how much I... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

I can't tell you how much I hate this new design!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Republican failure ended the war in Vietnam and caused the deaths of 3-Mil SEA. Nixon ran on it and Ford ended it.

Why are there more deaths in Iraq in the first 6-months of this year than in the same six months of last year?

Why are the senior members of the Republican party bailing on the President's plan on the eve of the President's report on the assessment of the surge?

I await your spin

There are more deaths becau... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

There are more deaths because the Iraqis are fighting back, dimwit.

When the Iraqis put themselves in the fight against Al Qaeda, more of them are gonna get killed!

I guess simple logic like that is beyond you, Barney.

Barney, you are making no s... (Below threshold)

Barney, you are making no sense at all, neither about Vietnam nor Iraq, try not to sputter on the keyboard.

BarneyG2000: "Republican... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

BarneyG2000: "Republican failure ended the war in Vietnam and caused the deaths of 3-Mil SEA"

Now THAT takes balls!! Better find an actual History book, boyo. Your Democrat slimes cut the funding for South Vietnam in 1975. Kerry, et al, claimed that the "reconciliation" of North and South would be relatively bloodless.

The MILLIONS of deaths wind up on THEIR heads.

Look it up!!

Why are there more deaths i... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Why are there more deaths in Iraq in the first 6-months of this year than in the same six months of last year?
-------------------------------------
Because the terrorists simply try to blow up more women/children in IRaq so that people like Reid/Pelosi and leftists like you can propagandize for withdrawal from Iraq (and give the terrorists the victory).

Why are the senior members of the Republican party bailing on the President's plan on the eve of the President's report on the assessment of the surge?
-------------------------------------
Because these spineless Reps are intimidated by the leftist propaganda machine. This doesn't change the fact that the huge majority on the left prefer genocide in Iraq to American success. THat 's despicable in my book. Lieberman is the one sane liberal voice on the GWOT. THat 's why he was forced out of the Dem party.

BArney is reduced to his own virtual reality to avoid the shameful history of the left.


Oh, Barney, if you hate thi... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

Oh, Barney, if you hate this new design, you don't have to come back, you know.

Republican failure... (Below threshold)
Republican failure ended the war in Vietnam and caused the deaths of 3-Mil SEA. Nixon ran on it and Ford ended it.

It is just hilarious how a McGovernite can insist that the Vietnam war end RIGHT NOW, and then say that the failure of the war belongs to Nixon!

That, folks, is the very definition of chutzpah.

Barney, crack open a book once in a while. You need it.

Desperately.

How did the Dems cause 3-mi... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

How did the Dems cause 3-mill deaths in SEA when Nixon and Ford ended the war? How many of those were killed by the North Vietnamese?

The same way Barney that yo... (Below threshold)

The same way Barney that you would be responsible for millions of dead Iraqis if you got your way - by abandoning them to our murderous enemies.

That's teh point of Lori's and Jules' pieces. Do try to read them and keep up.

How did the Dems cause 3-mi... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

How did the Dems cause 3-mill deaths in SEA when Nixon and Ford ended the war? How many of those were killed by the North Vietnamese?
-------------------------------------
Nixon withdrew the American troops from Vietnam and left the fighting to the South Vietnames troops with the promise of military aids. The dem congress cut-off the funding basically to hand South Vietnam to the communists. You must be willfully ignorant to spin with a straight face.

The dems are trying to do the same thing in Iraq now. So much for the left 's caring about Iraqui civilians. I shudder to think what it is like when the left stops caring.

How did the Dems c... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:
How did the Dems cause 3-mill deaths in SEA when Nixon and Ford ended the war? How many of those were killed by the North Vietnamese?

Invest in a reading comprehension class, Barney. Justrand explained it, you just didn't understand (or deliberately ignored) his explanation.

I do not wont to get into a... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

I do not wont to get into a whole rehash of VN, but Nixon expanded the war into Laos and Cambodia was result of Nixon's failure.

As far a Iraq, if the surge is going so well than why have so many republicans flip flopped on the surge?

What does this mean for the '08 election? The poll leaders all endorse the surge, and Mr Law and Order was a snitch to Nixon!

BTW, the left was constantl... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

BTW, the left was constantly calling for ending the war in VN just like they are doing now wrt Iraq. THe left was acting as a propaganda arm of the communists as they are doing wrt Iraq now. The left was silent when genocide occured in Indochina as they are silent when terrorist atrocities occured in Iraq and elsewhere now.

These people can spin with a straight face!

Barney, save us the long di... (Below threshold)

Barney, save us the long discredited Noam Chomsky propaganda about Cambodia. The bottom line remains that as Lori and Jules point out, you are in favor of genocide.

As far a Iraq, if the surge... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

As far a Iraq, if the surge is going so well than why have so many republicans flip flopped on the surge?
-------------------------------------
Why is the left declaring the surge as failure before it was even started. AS Robin mentioned, the left prefered genocide over American success in Iraq. Otherwise, the left would have demand more troops and more decicive attacks against Iran from example. Barney can spin with a straight face.

We need to remind people that liberals were willing to have at least 3 millions death in Indochina and the left is proud of their Vietnam legacy. So now the left is willing to see even worse genocide in Iraq. The despicable thing is that the left is willing to propagandize towards that no so lofty goal.

Looks like leftists like Ba... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Looks like leftists like Barney are itching to win an election so that they can hasten the genocide in IRaq. That seems to be the bottom line for them.

Still only spin! The Nixon... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Still only spin! The Nixon caved-in due to the hippies? What does that say about the repub party? How many Cambodians would have died if we stayed on of VN?

Why are repubs tripping over themselves to declare the surge is not working?

I am looking for answers and not insults.

It also seems that, like St... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

It also seems that, like Steven above, they don't think Iraqi lives are worth saving.

White House officials fear ... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

White House officials fear that the last pillars of political support among Senate Republicans for President Bush's Iraq strategy are collapsing around them, according to several administration officials and outsiders they are consulting. They say that inside the administration, debate is intensifying over whether Mr. Bush should try to prevent more defections by announcing his intention to begin a gradual withdrawal of American troops from the high-casualty neighborhoods of Baghdad and other cities.

And where is your source fo... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:

And where is your source for that, Barney? Your BDS-infected imagination?

Barney you are TRULY hopele... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Barney you are TRULY hopeless!

Pretty much everyone on this thread has tried to explain basic Government 101 to you.

The President sets POLICY, but Congress controls FUNDING. So although Nixon and our State Department PROMISED funding for the South Vietnamese they could not DELIVER the funding unless Congress agreed. The democrats BLOCKED the funding...and DELIBERATELY left the South Vietnamese to their own devices. They did so because they, in their Leftist "wisdom" believed it was best. 3 million DEAD South Vietnamese just might disagree with them!

Now the Dimocrats want to replay that "strategy". Leave the Iraqis to the "mercy" of alQueda, Iran and Syria. Nice bunch...VERY "merciful". And again, the DIMS control the funding!!

G'night all

Officials say that Mr. Gate... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

Officials say that Mr. Gates has been quietly pressing for a pullback that could roughly halve the number of combat brigades now patrolling the most violent sections of Baghdad and surrounding provinces by early next year. The remaining combat units would then take up a far more limited mission of training, protecting Iraq's borders and preventing the use of Iraq as a sanctuary by Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, a Sunni Arab extremist group that claims to have an affiliation with Osama bin Laden's network, though the precise relationship is unknown.

That doesn't sound like stay the course?

"3 million DEAD South Vietn... (Below threshold)
BarneyG2000:

"3 million DEAD South Vietnamese just might disagree with them!"

Just-turd, can you please document that 3-million Vietnamese died after we left in the mid 70's?

Please attribute the deaths to NV death squads, retribution or other means of genocide because I would like to know.

Seriously!

Are we supposed to be surpr... (Below threshold)
Dirk:

Are we supposed to be surprised that torture is going on by the Iraq government? Every single third world country practices torture. Even the Cuban Paradise lefties love so much.

Colin did not seem hell be... (Below threshold)

Colin did not seem hell bent against going to war with
Iraq when he was at the UN detailing Saddam's WMDs and
ties to Al-Qaeda.The left hated him then,but now that
he has jumped ship on Iraq,well his word is gold to Barney.
Pakistan made it clear years ago that US attacks would not be permitted in their country.
The report states clearly that Al-Zawahiri was thought to be their,not confirmed.
As usual with Barney and his leftwing friends,they are always on both sides of the argument and provide no solutions.
When we did bomb an Al-Qaeda house in Pakistan last
year,the left yelled and screamed how stupid it was and
we were hurting international relations by killing civilians.
Barneys playing the hypocrisy card just like the
pardons,Jefferson,and their bogus concern for freedom
for everyone in the world.
I have spoken to thousands of Vietnam Vets,marched on
Washington with them and stood at the wall to protect it from super intelligent,open minded liberals like
yourself who spat on them and tried to destroy a
monument to their sacrifice.
Everyone of them and any historian who is not a left-wing idiot knows that the cutting off of funding
led to millions of death's when we cut and ran.
The same thing will happen in Iraq and all Barney cares about is how to pin it on the Republicans.
Barney,you and your left wing idiot friends will have the blood of the people from Vietnam,Rwanda,and Iraq
on your hands if you liberals get the cut and run you
long for so much.
A few weak Republican senators will not cover up the
whole democratic party and their push for surrender these past few years.Our military and the American
people will remember the press and your liberal heroes
if genocide takes place in Iraq and the whole Mid-East
falls into war.
The results of cut and run will be disastrous and make the death tolls now look insegnificant compared
to all out Sunni/Shia war with Iran,Syria,Saudi Arabia
all involved.Al-Qaeda and other terrorist factions will
control one of the worlds largest oil supplies with
trillions of dollars at their disposal.
Barney,instead of showing your ignorance by cutting
and pasting quotes,why don't you show us how smart you
are by explaining how genocide and all out war in the
Middle-East is the smart way to go.
The NYT's has already started for you.
have your way

post-1975 Vietnamese civili... (Below threshold)
pdq332 Author Profile Page:

post-1975 Vietnamese civilian deaths:
"...
the most likely total would be 430,000. That's 65,000 executions + 165,000 camp deaths + 200,000 boat people."

See http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm
for analysis and references. 3M is something of an over estimate.

Yet the point remains: a leftist engineered pullout in Iraq will lead to carnage at least as great if not greater than the carnage experienced by the South Vietnamese at the hands of North Vietnamese leftists when the Democratic US congress cut off military aid to South Vietnam. We who are witnessing these events unfold will not let the hands be washed again. If leftists are unwilling to stand for the principles of free government in Iraq, why should we trust them to stand for them anywhere?

pdq332:But that do... (Below threshold)
marc:

pdq332:

But that doesn't count the est 1.7 to 3 million that died in Cambodia thanks in large part to the then communist Vietnam, thanks to the Dems among others, invading Cambodia and the purge conducted by Pol Pot.

Officials say that... (Below threshold)
C-C-G Author Profile Page:
Officials say that Mr. Gates has been quietly pressing for a pullback that could roughly halve the number of combat brigades now patrolling the most violent sections of Baghdad and surrounding provinces by early next year. The remaining combat units would then take up a far more limited mission of training, protecting Iraq's borders and preventing the use of Iraq as a sanctuary by Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, a Sunni Arab extremist group that claims to have an affiliation with Osama bin Laden's network, though the precise relationship is unknown.

Once again, no link. Therefore we cannot verify if this is or is not a product of Barney's fevered BDS-invested imagination.

You want honesty? You sa... (Below threshold)
junyo:

You want honesty? You say you respect honesty? I say "prove it". I guess 9//11 didn't change "everything"; Republicans seem to lie just as much and about the same things as before.

Let's assume that Republicans are all evil liars that don't care about anyone of anything. What does that make Democrats, who supposedly DO actually believe in justice and human rights around the globe, and yet are willing to condone probable genocide because it's cost effective and politically expediant. And it's not like it's the first time. Sure Clinton bombed Kosovo; but he abandoned millions of Rwandans to be hacked to death because it didn't agin him anything. Are any Democrats in, well anywhere, calling for US action beyond a strongly worded letter to end the on-going genocide in Dafur? The last Democrat that paid more than lip service to the concept of the muscular defense of human rights was JFK, and he'd be considered a war-mongering right winger theocrat by the rank and file of the modern Democratic Party. Oh wait, there's Joe Lieberman, but you guys punted him for distance.

This is an example of the l... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

This is an example of the liberal quagmire in the Balkans. It has been 8 years and we are still stuck in the Kosovo quagmire.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/010476.php

The quagmire of Kosovo's status continues at the United Nations, thanks to Russian refusals to consider the independence of the province. Eight years after UN intervention and administration, the Security Council warns of more violence in the area as the talks have stalled yet again on the final status of the breakaway territory

Barney, I already gave you ... (Below threshold)

Barney, I already gave you a link for estimates of murders by North Vietnam post 1975 written by a scholar of mass murderers and you didn't read it. Why should someone else duplicate that work if you don't read links?

Note that 3 million deaths ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica Immigrant:

Note that 3 million deaths include the Cambodian genocide of at least 2 million deaths (30% of the Cambodian population) by Pol Pot 's effort to remake the Cambodian society for his communist (progressive) utopia.
3 million deaths was a low estimate. Some estimate goes as high as 5 million. These deaths are due to the cut-and-run policy of the liberals in the 1970s.




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