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Democrats Declare that They are Pro-Abortion

They all proudly pledged that they support a woman's "right" to kill her unborn baby. That alone is not all that newsworthy since this is a position virtually all Democrats have held. But what was particularly startling came at the end of the article:

According to the New York Times, during an interview with Planned Parenthood, Elizabeth Edwards also criticized Clinton, saying she's "not as vocal a women's advocate as I want to see." In addition, she indicated that Hilary had waffled on her strong pro-choice position in the past by saying that abortions are tragedies.

Abortions aren't tragedies? Then what the hell are they, Elizabeth, something to celebrate and cheer? Abortion is horrible because it not only ends a human life, but it has a devastating psychological, emotional, and physical impact on women that can last a life time. That Mrs. Edwards ignores how abortion hurts women is a tragedy in itself.


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Comments (59)

19,000 children died... (Below threshold)
dr lava:


19,000 children died today from PREVENTABLE causes. You anti abortion nuts don't worry about those kids or work to save them because its easier to save an imaginary kid, you don't really need to do anything.

First you save the living, breathing children. The anti-abortion crowd is vile.

dr lava said,"19,000 childr... (Below threshold)

dr lava said,"19,000 children died today from PREVENTABLE causes." And the "solution" is to kill more "imaginary kid(s)"?

I give you the left, ladies and gents,devaluing life to the tune of countless millions dead in the past few decades.Huzzah!

That is vile. It truly is.... (Below threshold)

That is vile. It truly is.

If someone wants to castigate people for having the wrong focus for their good deeds, why not tear animal groups a big one. Do you know how much a hip replacement for a dog costs? Do you know how many people could be helped if crippled dogs were humanely put down and the money used to help all those dying kids?

Help a dog. Kill a kid.

(There are logical problems with this, but they apply every bit as much if not more to dr. lava's either-or scenario.)

The difference of course la... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

The difference of course lava, is that death is a part of life. Everyone dies. You will too.

However, murder is not a part of life. A child dying because of illness is not the same as the child that is murdered. Do you get that? We are trying to prevent murder. So please answer the following question in one word (either "for" or "against").

Are you for or against murder?

I love this "Well, there's ... (Below threshold)
MikeSC:

I love this "Well, there's problems, so doing ANYTHING is wrong!!!" mentality.

You know, there's slavery in parts of Africa. I guess civil rights are just not needed until that ends.
-=Mike

nehemiah,Murder ma... (Below threshold)

nehemiah,

Murder may not be "a part of life", but it is a plank of the DNC.

"...an imaginary kid." Ple... (Below threshold)
LAB:

"...an imaginary kid." Please say that to an expectant mother who happens to want the child.

"First you save the living, breathing children." Just because it's not oxygen, doesn't mean the child is not breathing. Please get a clue.

19,000 children di... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
19,000 children died today from PREVENTABLE causes.

That's just a diversion to take the heat off the death dealers. The pro-abortion crowd cares nothing for such children apart from using the tragedy of their deaths for political purposes. The only solution the pro-abortion crowd has to offer is to kill them before they die from other PREVENTABLE causes.

First you save the living, breathing children.

Science 101: Abortions kills living, respiring children. The pro-abortion crowd's belief that a child in the womb is not a living, respiring human is unsupported by any scientific evidence.

Like some pagan religion, the pro-abortion crowd sacrifices their children to the god of convenience. This pagan practice is incompatible with any civilized concept of human dignity and the value of human life.

Was the death of Wade Edwar... (Below threshold)
Gianni:

Was the death of Wade Edwards considered late term abortion? Wonder if his death was a tragedy?

Wonder if BreckBoy and waffle mamma think the death of any child is a tragedy?

Did people like Chris Reeve walk yet?

"dr lava" would give a mill... (Below threshold)

"dr lava" would give a million murdered babies for one good spine. Apparently Chris Reeve could only find 999,999.

Abortions aren't tragedies?... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

Abortions aren't tragedies? ...per the Democrats.

The "logical" next step is to REQUIRE every woman to abort at least one child so she can embrace the coolness of killing someone!!

F**ked up?? You bet!

I love the hypocrisy of the... (Below threshold)
civil behavior:

I love the hypocrisy of the pro life crowd.

You are all for bringing embryos to term. Then once they are breathing unless they've been born to families with enough financial means to take care of them, those who are resident in homes where there is no father or the parent is a drug addict or a teen mother or just lazy and unwilling to do much more than collect welfare you rail against the burden these parents and their children place on the money contributed to the federal funds used to support them.

The ever so virtous rallying cry of righties rings so hollow. You want women who might otherwise abort to have kids so you can have a field day marginalizing their unseemly behaviors. Seems you revel in the rhetoric directed towards women who have little ability to take care of themselves much less a child. But no, oh no, let's make sure those kids are born so they can have a miserable existence and we can feel ever so righteous for giving them a chance at such an existence.

What's so great for a child born into despair and institutionalized prejudices, treated as an outcast amongst the righteous? Tell me, what's so moral about your attitude once those chidren are born into such circmstances?

Sometimes I really think you people live to be wretched to humanity.

civil behavior,Do ... (Below threshold)

civil behavior,

Do you not know the EXACT correlation of the current onslaught of "those who are resident in homes where there is no father or the parent is a drug addict or a teen mother or just lazy and unwilling to do much more than collect welfare" is in line with all of those little bundles of death your side yearns for every day ? They go together,don't you get it?

People were more responsible back when it was understood that killing a baby is a crime. Watch the abortion scene in the original "What's it all about Alfie?". Even Hollywood used to know what a horror that attrocity is. Now,you and they embrace it. Disgusting.

It takes a man and a women ... (Below threshold)
Allen:

It takes a man and a women (normally) to make a women pregnant, and then the men are telling the women what they can and can't do with their bodys.

Hell, all you men that are against abortion are probably secret Taliban members. Isn't it up to the women if she wants to carry the baby to full term and birth? Are you men willing to pay the women for the medical expense, and make sure the baby has everything it needs?

If not, I suggest you men leave this up to the women, as you are the cause of the problem, not the cure.

Personally, I am against abortion, but I damn sure don't speak out about it one way or another (until now) because that is a problem a women has, and she will, in the future have to answer for it. So gentlemen, please shut up!

Hey "cb" how just killing t... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Hey "cb" how just killing the ones that are having the abortions also. That way you get them out the way also.

Allen,Uh,baby here... (Below threshold)

Allen,

Uh,baby here. Do I have any "rights"?

Dr Soap is a Sea Gull poste... (Below threshold)

Dr Soap is a Sea Gull poster here at Wizbang...he swoops in, defecates, and flies out. He has never been involved in serious discussion here because he is not capable of engaging in informed debate. The Greek concept of debate is as foreign to him as Cuba is to healthcare....both claim ownership of it but outsource it when the temp rises above 101.

He, like Jim, should be ignored.

Anyone who reads my weblg (... (Below threshold)
Linoge Author Profile Page:

Anyone who reads my weblg (probably no one here) knows that I am more than a little conservative. That said, this is one of the topics on which I differ from my side of the fence.

This is simply one aspect of human life where the government has no place to be. At all. Period. Full stop. End of story. This is something that is between a woman, her husband/significant other (if available), and her God.

That said, I am firmly against any abortion that comes at a time when the fetus would be viable outside of the womb. Other than that, it is not my business, your business, or the government's business.

Of course, us minimal-government types get yelled at by both sides of the fence these days, so I will stand by for that.

Linoge,Do we adjus... (Below threshold)

Linoge,

Do we adjust the "viable" thing everytime a baby survives a little earlier than before ?

Does that then mean, that we were breaking YOUR rules up until then ?

Are babies only babies when YOU say they are babies ?

"What's so great for a chil... (Below threshold)
LAB:

"What's so great for a child born into despair and institutionalized prejudices, treated as an outcast amongst the righteous?Tell me, what's so moral about your attitude once those chidren are born into such circmstances?"

This generalized statement makes the assumption that all unaborted children are destined to a life of despair. You might want to expand your thinking a little bit, like considering parents that want to adopt children without a stable birth mother. I personally was acquainted with a man who went through a foster care program to take in 3 children born of a crack-addicted mother. He and his wife are now in the process of becoming the proud adoptive parents of 3 adorable children. Where does the word "outcast" fit into this story? And while your at it, you can explain the "righteousness" of abortion.

Allen, you are a moral cowa... (Below threshold)

Allen, you are a moral coward. Saying that it's *her* business is a cop-out of the first order.

People figured a man ruled his home and the people in it and used that to ignore horrific abuse. Now we say a woman rules her body and the people in it.

I don't see the difference.

And if her rulership of her body doesn't include control over getting pregnant or not getting pregnant then getting an abortion will not give her control. In the most drastic case, that of rape, getting an abortion doesn't make a woman un-raped. The control of her own body argument is a false argument.

Pro-life people want a woman to have *real* control over her body and her reproduction.

As for the other sanctimonious twits up there... it is NOT better to be dead than to be miserable for a time. *Circumstances* do not determine the value of a human being.

There are lots of ways to *not* have children. Talking about abortion as birth control and pro-life sorts as wanting to force unwanted children into the world is lying.

It is also a lie to formulate abortion as advocacy for women as though this is an issue women agree on because they are women.

(Like that gawd-awful "million mom march" for gun control... as if the subset of the population "moms" are for gun control. It pisses me off to be used for political purposes with which I disagree. That's taking away control from women if anything is.)

Linoge... I don't like it m... (Below threshold)

Linoge... I don't like it much but I'm willing to go with "brain activity" on both ends to define a human being as "alive."

I'm not certain I want all abortion to be illegal (and certainly not if there are serious medical issues... "health of the mother" does not include the normal risks associated with pregnancy!) but I do think it's wrong. My libertarian tendencies allow the proper role of government to keep legal things that are wrong... but that also means that I think that social pressure has a very important role to play in enforcing behavior and that I have an obligation in that respect.

Abortion is a tragedy in all respects.

dr lava:You an... (Below threshold)
marc:

dr lava:

You anti abortion nuts don't worry about those kids or work to save them because its easier to save an imaginary kid,

Are those "imaginary" children Tiller the Killer is aborting in Kansas?

Allen:If not, ... (Below threshold)
marc:

Allen:

If not, I suggest you men leave this up to the women, as you are the cause of the problem, not the cure.

This little nugget of "wisdom" is just after men were called out as "probably secret Taliban members" for trying to dictate what women could and couldn't do with their body.

AND shortly after saying it took a man AND a woman to make a baby.

So just WHO IS part of a secret Taliban society Allen? The men you claim are or the women you apparently think should be ALL POWERING?

Mental...... meet midget!

"The abortions in question ... (Below threshold)

"The abortions in question involved cases in which patients were more than 21 weeks pregnant and the fetuses were able to survive outside the womb. Under such circumstances, Kansas law requires two doctors to conclude that if the pregnancy continues, a mother-to-be will face death or "substantial and irreversible" harm to "a major bodily function," which has been interpreted to include mental health."

Because people don't think women should have to suffer death or "substantial and irreversible" harm to bring a child to term.

A second doctor has to sign-off that the woman really and truly needs an abortion or will suffer... not a small hurt... but death or substantial hurt that won't get better. The charges are that the doctor wasn't getting that second opinion properly.

(quote linked from the link marc posted)

One woman I know who got an abortion was a 17 year old who was forced by her parents to get an illegal one when she was five months pregnant and had felt the baby kick and move.

A *doctor* took money to do that.

Hey I am all for abortion, ... (Below threshold)
mpw280:

Hey I am all for abortion, without it there would be millions more liberal voters in the US. Lets face it liberals love abortion even after 30 years of willingly killing their future voters. The fact that preener Edwards wife, after suffering cancer, thinks its good to slaughter unborn children makes you wonder why she fought so hard for her life?

You can also apply this to the dems view of terrorism, they would rather get slaughtered than fight it.

mpw

Does that then mean, tha... (Below threshold)
Linoge Author Profile Page:

Does that then mean, that we were breaking YOUR rules up until then ?

Are babies only babies when YOU say they are babies ?

How is that different from any other situation? I am simply expressing my opinion, take it or leave it. Unfortunately, even though it is a standard axiom for pro-lifers, the definition of "life" has not been nailed ot the wall yet. One could use the brain-wave cut-off point (which I can certainly see the merits of), but what good is a brainwave when the body could not continue it out of a remarkably small, remarkably supporting environment? Of course, on the flip side, what good is a body without a brainwave?

I cannot say as though I know the answer to either of those questions, but I am content with leaving it that if a fetus could survive outside of its organic life support, it is alive - like I said, a brainwave without a functional body is not terribly useful. As such, my dislike of "late-term" abortions is a logical extension of that belief. Otherwise (and I know I am going to be raked over the coals for this comment), it is scant more than a remarkably complicated symbiont...

*shrugs* Honestly, I do not know, and I find it the height of hubris that people claim they do. We have a hard enough time defining "alive" for people out here in the world with us, how do we think we can pick a point in a process we do not fully understand, even now? And, yes, I am just as guilty as all those other people by choosing a point myself... I just hate fence-sitting.

Either way, I have a hard enough time dealing with all of the idiotic laws we have on the books now, with more spawning every minute. But making laws that extend into a woman's body, and possibly before the point of a person's life? What next? Are we going to illegalize certain positions for sexual intercourse?

Oh wait, we already did that...

"Honestly, I do not know" s... (Below threshold)

"Honestly, I do not know" says Linoge, and for that,we are to decide life or death.

And when you say,"But making laws that extend into a woman's body, and possibly before the point of a person's life? What next?", it seems to me that you have already established "Linoges Law"(Are you known as a "Linogician"? Just wandering.)which dictates that all babies who can live outside the womb canNOT be killed. Come on "L" baby, dive deep into your linogistics, and I'm sure you'll find that you're arguement just broke water and it's a breach birth.

I'd say it's time to kill that little sucker.

What we have is the left ch... (Below threshold)
hermie:

What we have is the left changing the definition of abortion as just another means of birth control. There are other means of birth control that do not require the termination of a life.

However, the old Friedan/Steinem concept that abortion is 'like removing a hangnail', has taken root and thrived. Now the child is called a mass of unviable tissue, but the dehumanization of the fetus still remains constant. The focus is not on the unborn child, but the mother's 'health'; which now includes 'mental health', and that can be anything including 'depression'.

It's funny how during the age of the Steinem feminists it was "I am woman, hear me roar'; indicating that women were powerful and could make their own decisions...yet a woman is considered by the abortion crowd as being incapable to tell her mate to 'back off', or to use a condom.

"Seems you revel in the ... (Below threshold)

"Seems you revel in the rhetoric directed towards women who have little ability to take care of themselves much less a child."

Ah yes, a woman acts irresponsibly and carelessly, gets pregnant and CB's first thought is "kill the baby". Tell me CB, suppose she is quite capable of caring for a child, suppose her partner is willing to provide for her and the baby - is abortion still OK?

I hope you do answer. I already know your answer, but I want to hear it from you. Because it would prove the obvious. That your empty rhetoric is just that - empty - and filled with the usual spittle spraying hatred you engage in every time you post here.

Abortion is wrong. Everyone... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Abortion is wrong. Everyone knows it. It is an un-natural act. It is the ending of life.

Abortion has become the new birth control for promiscuous people that refuse to accept resonsibility for their actions. I would bet you that a vast majority of women who have had abortions carry guilt and wonder what their child would have been like had they not decided to end that life. What a burden to carry. Dr Lava and Allen must be so proud of their strength. ww

civil behavior:<block... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

civil behavior:

You are all for bringing embryos to term. Then once they are breathing unless they've been born to families with enough financial means to take care of them,

My father was adopted. I'm damn glad someone didn't decide to abort him instead.

*sighs* And now the rhetor... (Below threshold)
Linoge Author Profile Page:

*sighs* And now the rhetoric, name-calling, and general-purpose obnoxiousness that this "debate" always comes down to rear its ugly head.

I guess some people are just unaware of the definitions of "possibly", "opinion", and "hypocrisy".

Linoge,It's "possi... (Below threshold)

Linoge,

It's "possible" you're a mealymouthed,smokingjacket wearing (You know,with the patches on the elbows ?),eighteen year old dating (Well,actually,probably not.),"Say there old chum," saying, kind of pretentious a-hole,but that's just my "opinion" of people who talk of a womans soveriegnty over her bodis,while simultaneously expressing a "desire" to "protect" a "viable tissue mass".

You're a pompous twit,and you wouldn't know decisiveness if It screamed at you from a burning bush.Grow a set you cany*ss little wussyboy....And stop whining about the name calling you pantywaist!

Funny, I did make a decisio... (Below threshold)

Funny, I did make a decision, and have explained it in every post in this thread. You, however, obviously disagree with it, and that disagreement seems to cause you to believe that it is an invalid decision, simply because you disagree with it.

That said, suffice it to say that you have definitively shown your true colors through the course of this thread, and indicated just how useful these debates really are. Thanks for reaffirming that in my mind, and for showing the kinds of topics that hypocrites like yourself love the best. I will certainly steer clear in the future, and allow you all your collective love-fest.

Linoge,Don't let p... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Linoge,

Don't let pudge put off from debate. Not everyone wants an echo chamber.

Agree or disagree with Lino... (Below threshold)

Agree or disagree with Linoge, he has made his decision and done his best to explain himself. I can respect that. It seems he is a 'squishy' or 'cautious' supporter in respects to the social aspects of abortion. I am too. That I'm willing to make concessions in regards to abortion doesn't mean I wholeheartedly endorse it though. And that is the impression I get from his narrative - he doesn't give it his wholehearted endorsement, but is willing to at least draw lines.

Pudge, your continuing badgering of him with suppositions about his character and even what he wears is just an attempt to shout him down because you disagree. State your own feelings about the issue without the ad hominum attacks and leave it at that.

A) Abortion is wrong... (Below threshold)

A) Abortion is wrong
B) Abortion is right

Pick a side and go with it and stop reveling in your enlightened "squishyness". Criminy, at least the NARAL types have conviction.They want to see as many abortions as possible.You whimps hem and haw 'til the house comes down,and then you still want to leave the door open!

You say I attack because I disagree. No. I attack because you are an appauling mish-mash of mamby-pampyism. You are Peter Keatings girl friend.You are grey and substance free.You are a bore, and, with apparent decent intellects,that makes you a waist of yourselves.

pudge, are you this nasty i... (Below threshold)

pudge, are you this nasty in real life? If so, I would imagine you probably have to spend a lot of time physically defending yourself. If not, then why do you think it's okay to be that way here? Because it's safer to hide behind an anonymous keyboard?

If pudge is like this in re... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

If pudge is like this in real life, he/she most likely doesn't much leave the basement and has little to no outside social contact.

linoge, my feelings toward abortion run more or less parallel to yours, at least as far as government intervention are concerned. Although I don't agree with the arguments about deciding what's good for a woman's body and all that. While I consider myself to be pro-life and would never think of reaching a decision with my wife to have her get an abortion. I can see how others of a different faith or belief system could. I do draw the line at late-term abortions though, as you seem to. IMO, that should be a crime for everyone.

pudge,I suppose yo... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

pudge,

I suppose you were just born with a set of black and white ideals. You never had to decide or weigh the benefits or hinderances of anything?

Even complex issues that sometimes rely almost soley on the situation in which they're applied, you unthinkingly decide one way or the other, wrong or right? Good to know this world is comprised entirely of option A) and option B).

How laughably narrow minded of you. You have my congratulations on being not only unintelligent, but a complete dickhead about it.

One word of advice, pudge: ... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

One word of advice, pudge: Get used to the taste of shoe leather. There are people around here much smarter and much better spoken than you.

God's greatest gift is a ch... (Below threshold)
Ted:

God's greatest gift is a child and to destroy that gift is to dishonor Him in a monumental act of arrogance. Each human life has a meaning and is precious to Him as it should be to us, especially the mother. But we play god and destroy the fundamental structure of the family because it is not convenient for us. A baby is in the way of our pursuit of what we call freedom. Unfortunately, this freedom often drags us down in to the dark pits of our own rage and despair.

JR,Oyster,Heralder,Linoge e... (Below threshold)

JR,Oyster,Heralder,Linoge etc. Ugh,

Never said I was smarter,I just know the truth when I see it. The truth isn't an "IMO" statement, designed to land one safely within reach of both sides of the issue at hand. It is the truth, and it is cruel,and I am cruel for stating it,but nonetheless,the truth it is.

Standing smugly on the wobly 2X4 of enlightened indecisiveness is not productive or based in any specific belief. Because you are always within arms reach of either "conviction",no one can castigate you because you see the wisdom in both sides points of view. You are too smart for such antiquated notions like "black and white", or, "right and wrong". Congradulations gents,and gentets, with each post posted, you illustrate my point as you commiserate and backslap one another with the happy glow of fuzzy, kinda, sorta, indignation. (But only if it doesn't offend someone too much.)

Bravo! Here's to the "Grey New World",and all of its fettered nuance.

pudge,If you were ... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

pudge,

If you were posting this on some little forum where no one really says much one way or another, you might actually have a point.

But here, you may have noticed there are strong opinions and beliefs laid bare every day and they often conflict with one another...violently. So to say that not making a decision is essentially just an act of cowardice based on the fear of being rebuked or being found offensive, you should know that's utter bullshit.

"But here, you may have not... (Below threshold)

"But here, you may have noticed there are strong opinions and beliefs laid bare every day and they often conflict with one another...violently. So to say that not making a decision is essentially just an act of cowardice based on the fear of being rebuked or being found offensive, you should know that's..."

Not talking about this forum as a whole,I am talking about the issue of abortion and your lack of a willingness to take a stand either way. Abortion is not a nebulous act. It demands a straight answer if you are a serious person.On this issue,the bunch of you,HAVE been cowardice on display.It's embarassing. Just say it: You justify the killing of a baby in the womb because you don't want to be THE ONE to "force your views on others". That was the view of the ambivalent during the time of our national shame, called "the slave years".

I'm no Wiburforce,but I'd proudly support the guy.

p.s.
You are also self important and humorless.
That last one being something I just can't stomach in a person.

pudge,You're funny... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

pudge,

You're funny.

Tell me what my views on abortion are from what I've posted here, in this thread. It should be a simple excercise, I only made a single post on the subject.

You are also self important and humorless.

:( How will I ever sleep tonight knowing you think that of me?

Wah.

Wait, pudge called someone ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Wait, pudge called someone humorless? That's the first funny thing he's written, and it wasn't intentionally so.

I for one have what I think is a well-defined stance on abortion, and have had to explain it in detail over the years in my debates with my brother, who is pro-life. The interesting thing about our debates, I think, is that we're both atheists.

His argument is that a fetus is just as human as an adult person, insomuch as it is composed of human DNA, and since we have laws against homicide, and those should be applied to all humans, abortion should not be allowed. It makes sense to me, but I take a more nuanced view (take that, pudge!).

My view starts from the fact that anywhere from 35% - 60% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage (the number is even higher for older women; up to 75%). Miscarriage is a colloquial term for spontaneous abortion (first six weeks called "early pregnancy loss"; after six week called "clinical spontaneous abortion"), just not the kind you visit a clinic to get. Because of this it is hard for me to consider a fertilized egg/blastocyst/embryo as being the same as a post-birth (or even third-trimester) human. The existence of these organisms is tenuous, and nature (or God, if you like) goes ahead and kills them all the time.

It is hard for me in light of this to consider abortion, before a certain gestation point, to be wrong, and I wonder about the ramifications were abortion to be completely illegal. If we want abortion in all forms to be illegal, wouldn't we also have to outlaw activities which increase risk of miscarriage (smoking, alcohol consumptions, low nutrition, obesity, drug use, exposure to certain chemicals, and use of anti-inflammatory drugs) among pregnant women? Also, wouldn't we have to restrict women with certain diseases or disorders which increase the risk of miscarriage (progesterone deficiency, high blood pressure, polycystic ovary syndrome, diabetes, etc.) from becoming pregnant? If we are committed to preventing any abortion, shouldn't women whose activities lead to miscarriage at least be charged with negligent homicide?

I don't think so, but it only makes sense if you feel that humans in-gestation are the same as post-birth humans. I find this stance completely untenable, and thus have found a different calculus: suffering.

I believe anything with a central nervous system can experience suffering, and I try not to cause suffering in others (that's why I don't eat meat). I have tried to determine at what point during gestation the neurological pathways that allow pain (let alone thought) to be felt have formed. This is disputed, but widely believed to be somewhere between 24-28 weeks. As such I support the legality of abortion in the first two trimesters (or more conservatively, the first 1 1/2), and think later abortions should be outlawed unless the mother's life is threatened.

That said, I understand and respect the alternate opinion that all fetuses have souls, and abortion would cause suffering to that soul. I don't believe that a soul exists, however, and I think those that do should be a little pissed at God for snuffing so many out with miscarriages. And so it goes.

Oh, by the way, it's quite ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Oh, by the way, it's quite humorous that to Kim, brilliant logician that she is, Elizabeth Edwards = Democrats ("Democrats Declare that They are Pro-Abortion"), despite the fact that Edwards was disagreeing with....another Democrat!

How her head doesn't just explode from the dissonance I'll never know.

mantis,Gee,it sure... (Below threshold)

mantis,

Gee,it sure is nice of you to come back from the grave and ingratiate us with your grand and wonderous wisdom, but really,you're not fooling anyone with the pseudonym Mr. Vonnegut.

but really,you're not fo... (Below threshold)
mantis:

but really,you're not fooling anyone with the pseudonym Mr. Vonnegut.

You flatter me, but alas, I am just a bug.

Elizabeth is positioning he... (Below threshold)

Elizabeth is positioning herself to the left of Clinton. Abortion is not the issue - it's being more left. He's more extreme than Hillary on the war, social issues, etc. He's vying for VP on her ticket. Elizabeth is out there saying this stuff because she-who-has-cancer can't be criticized.

However if she keeps talking like this it might lead to the suspicion that the cancer has metastasized in her brain.

Abortion ends life. No one argues that. The question arises then who has the right to end life? To some that is a man-given right, to some it is God-given. To those who decide that man has a right to end some lives, you frankly scare the hell out of me, even the fence sitters, because when life is the issue nobody should sit on a fence. It's like being kinda pregnant. Either you are or you aren't.

I'll start taking the right... (Below threshold)

I'll start taking the right to life crowd serious when they really support everyone's right to life.

If abortion is murder (as most here have claimed) and there is no statute of limitations on murder then why doesn't the right to life crowd seek the arrest, conviction and full punishment of the law for every woman in America who in the past 30 plus years have murdered their unborn children. Some estimate that number to be about 30 million American Women or a little under 10% of the population.

Where is the courage of your conviction?

If you are truly a god fearing right to life person than why do your argue so vehemently for the death penalty and war?

Can you see why so many Americans just don't buy your arguments?

Can you see why so many Ame... (Below threshold)

Can you see why so many Americans don't buy *yours*?

Surely you can put yourself in someone elses shoes for a moment and find a way to rationally hold the view and argue that abortion is murder but not believe that women should be arrested and tried for murder.

You make this argument to be clever, and not because it really makes sense. Not even within the structure of our laws which have a wide range of punishments for various sorts of taking human life do you have a logical point.

Also, many who are pro-life are actively anti-war and against capital punishment (it seems to me this is reasonably common among Catholics, for instance.) So that's a nice straw man too. But for those of us who might be called "pro-war" or at least believe that war is sometimes necessary and that military service is honorable, and who shed no tears at all for the sort of cold-blooded murders that get the death penalty (and quite a few who oppose the death penalty do so because they feel we can't be absolutely certain mistakes were not made, not because they feel it would be wrong if absolute certainty was possible) simply see a difference between our treatment of the unborn and our treatment of criminals.

If you see no difference between an unborn child and the willful choice to kill it and the willful choice to accept capital punishment of someone convicted of particularly heinous crimes... I'm not particularly sure I care if you take me seriously or not.

Kathy has it right though..... (Below threshold)

Kathy has it right though... it's political positioning.

If you see no difference... (Below threshold)
Brian:

If you see no difference between an unborn child and the willful choice to kill it and the willful choice to accept capital punishment of someone convicted of particularly heinous crimes

If that's your position, then fine. But just don't pretend it's a "pro-life" position. It's really a "pro-life-when-I-say-so-and-pro-death-when-I-say-so" philosophy. And then you must accept that other people may "say so" differently than you.

Mantis, I solve that partic... (Below threshold)

Mantis, I solve that particular dilemma (the number of miscarriages, etc.,) with the concept of "good faith." I don't see that we have an obligation to go to great lengths to preserve all embryos or fetuses, just that we have to deal with them in good faith. I'm don't insist that we have to go take extraordinary measures to extend life at the other end of things either. But we shouldn't decide it's okay to kill people just because we decide that it's not necessary to go to extreme lengths to keep them alive.

Take invitro fertilization as a sort of extreme example. The embryos put into the mother's womb often do not attach. They die. It's sort of a chancy thing. So doctors put in several in hopes to get one. Sometimes they all implant.

To *me* losing some or most of the embryos because they don't implant isn't the same thing as fertilizing a bunch of ova and then throwing them in the trash. They've been given a chance because an ordinary effort, a good faith effort was made to give them a chance.

I find that the concept of good faith works in situations that push the boundaries of science fiction as well. We're going to be able to do a whole lot of things that people find very frightening. I don't think we should be scared of it, not of cloning humans (what is a clone but a postpartum twin?) or even of the sorts of things that make cloning look tame (eventually), but I don't think we should look at any of the "experiments" as disposable. Our attitude going in should be that they are people with the right to a good faith effort made on their behalf.

*sigh* but I'm an SF geek. I suppose that makes me hopeless.

Brian sweetie. I wasn't sa... (Below threshold)

Brian sweetie. I wasn't saying that there were not other rationally consistent opinions out there, just that the claim that it was not logical to oppose the killing of the unborn while accepting capital punishment was wrong.

It is quite logical.

Now if you're going to quibble about the term "pro-life" I'm MORE than happy to describe myself as anti-abortion if it will make you happy.

Because your happiness is very important to me.

Hey what's next? Quotas fo... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Hey what's next? Quotas for abortion clinics? Old fat-sses like edwards and clinton fillin the ranks with confused teens? No wonder they have a jack-ass as their mascot.




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