I've been around the blogosphere long enough to be skeptical of everything but if that M.D. Anderson stat is true, that is freaking amazing.

But... but... but... government-run health care is better! Hillary and Mikey Moore told us so!

All they have to do is move to Cuba. Just ask Michael Moore!

Mikey was on Leno last night. Leno is a liberal but he had lardo stuttering trying to explain his side.

Is the Canadian Doctor Dr. Scott Thomas? How about some fact checking? As a 25 tear resident of Canada, this story does not ring true.

Can one of The Powers That Be check Charles Harkins' IP address and see if it traces back to a Canadian ISP?

Betcha the troll/sock puppet didn't know that IP addresses can be traced like that. [evil grin]

Be my guest. You'll find me in Spartanburg, SC and I used my real full name too!!

So wouldn't that make you a former resident of Canada?

Yeah, a U.S. citizen who lived and worked in Canada for 25 years and now lives back in the U.S. and doesn't give a hoot about Michael Moore, Universal Health Care or any of it, but recognizes B.S. when he sees it. The stories this non practicing physician cites do not pass the smell test. Fact checking please.

If you don't give a hoot about universal health care, what are you doing in this thread?

I smell both a troll and a red herring.

It should be known that the author of the op/ed piece Kim quoted is David Gratzer, a fellow at the Mahattan Institute, a "free market" think tank which receives some of its funding from Bristol-Myers Squibb, as well as notable rightwing funding foundations like John M. Olin Foundation, Inc. and the (Clinton obsessed) Scaife Foundations. Just so you all know.

You smell alright. You also jump to lots of conclusions. I saw something stated as a fact that does not jibe with my own experiences and pointed it out.

Of course, If this is your personal thread or is by invitation only, I apologize.

I thought your first response questioning my Bona Fides might be honest. Clearly there is nothing I can say that will penetrate your thick skull, so I'll sign off now.

The point, Charles (if that's your real name) is that someone who "doesn't give a hoot about Universal Health Care" would just pass over an article like this.

The people who respond to articles like this are those that do care about universal health care, either pro or con.

Nice excuse for slinking off with your tail between your legs, tho. I give it 7 out of 10.

Uh, where's your proof, Tas?

Here in the Detroit metro area we are only a short bridge or tunnel ride from Canada.

Today I took my father to the doc and what do you know? There were two Ontario plates in the parking lot of the medical building.

Apparently there are more Canadians here than Mr. Harkins, and for fairly obvious reasons too.

Nor is this the first time. I'm no doctor, but I would guess that there are few medical problems that get better with a six-month wait.

Socialized medicine like communism hasn't worked anywhere in history simply because the democrats haven't been in charge of it. The only way to teach a child that a stove is hot is to let them touch it one time. When the dhimmi's die by the thousands due to lack of medical care at least 50% of them will wake up, too late. The other 50% will die (touched the stove more than once and didn't learn) in denial.

Where do our top Canadian politicians go for important health problems.

Hint: It ain't Toronto.

'Nother Hint for Sicko fans: It ain't Cuba.

Final hint: it's the US of A. Big fucking surprise. Our asshole politicians restrict our rights to treatment then get first class service in your country.

I hope you dumbasses do vote for Hillary/Obama out of sheer anticipatory schadenfreude. Why should you yanks have a great system while I and my family get screwed? Yay Dems. Dems forever. They'll save your cancerous asses, oh yes they will.

Jay just posted a thread that shows how liberal policies are ruining the People Republic of Massachusetts. Tas simply is doing the usual liberal tricks of distraction since he is running out of args. Using Tas arg, he should move to Cuba to get all the free socialized health care that Michael Moore recommended.

http://wizbangblog.com/content/2007/07/27/the-slaves-are-revolting.php

We were invited by Mr. Harkins to fact check the article linked. (BS Harkins says).

So I took 5 things in the article about the Canadian system and it was very easy to find confirming articles:

Nova Scotia doctor lottery:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2006/03/16/ns-lottery-doc20060316.html

Chaoulli wins Supreme Court case - allows private health insurance:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/06/09/newscoc-health050609.html

Brian Day, former Socialist and current Canadian Health Care critic elected President of Canadian Medical Association:

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_natlpost-a_new_day_for_the_cma.htm

Long ER waits in Winnipeg, 1997:

http://www.umanitoba.ca/centres/mchp/reports/pdfs/hcmpages/hcm_forum_vhm.pdf

Long MRI wait times:

http://www.ski-blog.com/2006/03/adam_at_highly_obsesseds_knee.html

Having found lots of confirmation, perhaps it would now fall to Mr. Harkins to find us some proof that the article is wrong.

well done Robert

Wow, just wow....

M. D. Anderson has developed one of the most ambitious cancer research programs in the world, with a research budget of more than $260 million.

CANCER RESEARCH FUNDING
As Canada's premier funding agency for
health research, CIHR invested more
than $79 million in cancer research in
2002-2003, a significant increase over
previous years' commitments

I'm not an expert on Canadian health care budgets, but it looks to me the claim is true 4X over.

Amazing.

Well, I'm a Canadian and I'm proud of the principle underlying our system. The system is broken, though, as it's underfunded. The Romanow Report explains how much extra funds are needed, and with the budget surplus and our economy booming, the funds are available and will be spent in the near future. I have never waited longer than four hours for treatment, and that was only because I had a superficial problem and others were ushered in ahead of me.

One of the biggest problems is a shortage of physicians. Once our government starts paying doctors upwards of what they get in the States, more will stay. It's a better place to raise a family.

Why is the "solution" to any governmental problem always to throw more money at it? And why do people not see the faulty logic in this?

Matt... I'm not trying to be a jerk, this is an honest question... You said:

Well, I'm a Canadian and I'm proud of the principle underlying our system. The system is broken, though, as it's underfunded. The Romanow Report explains how much extra funds are needed, and with the budget surplus and our economy booming, the funds are available and will be spent in the near future.

Again, honest question:
Putting your families well being the hands of government doesn't bother you on a visceral level? ... What happens when your country doesn't have a surplus?

Paul:

What happens when your country doesn't have a surplus?

Like after Jan 2009 when Shillary,, Schumer and the like start dismantling bit-by-bit the U.S. economy and that sends Canada's straight into the swirling poop-chute??

"One of the biggest problems is a shortage of physicians. Once our government starts paying doctors upwards of what they get in the States, more will stay. It's a better place to raise a family."

I have a suggestion that will keep doctors living in Canada.

Buy a house near the Canadian-American border. Get certified to practice medicine in the state nearest your home. Get a job in an American clinic in that state within 15 or so miles of your house. (Maybe 40, if you do not mind a long commute.

There you have it. American wages and the opportunity to live in Canada.

Huh. What?

You mean that is *not* what Matt meant when he wanted doctors to *stay* in Canada.?

Robert, Paul, I'm disgusted.

How DARE you actually do RESEARCH and bring FACTS to the argument?

This is a BLOG. You should only use name-calling, innuendo, and other such tactics!

I'm tempted to use my position as editor to delete both of you, ban you, and close down comments on this entire thread.

J.

Robert the Original

Robert, I'd like to congratulate you on your work. You did indeed confirm that there are problems in the Canadian Health Care System.

What I objected to was specifics of the allegation by Dr. David Gratzer posted by Kim Priestab.

First, Kim states that this is "A doctor who practices in Canada". TAS was right about who this guy is. All you have to do is Google his name. You'll find the info at:
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/gratzer.htm

He does not now practice in Canada and there is no evidence he ever did. His career appears to be academic/political/think tank.

Second, Kim interprets what Dr. Gratzer said as: "A five day wait for an ER visit? This is what happens when the government takes over health care. And this is just the beginning." That is not what Dr. Gratzer said and there is no info in any of the articles that Robert provided that substantiates that anyone waited 5 days for ER treatment. What Gratzer said was also not entirely correct and this is substantiated in one of the articles that Robert provides on "Long ER waits in Winnipeg". What happened in Winnipeg was that during flu season, there were occassional shortage of Hospital beds and some patients were kept in the ER waiting for a bed to open on one of the floors. They were seen by doctors, they were admitted, they were receiving medical care, but they were also not housed appropriately and that was a problem. Just not the problem that we were led to believe.

There was no confirmation in any article that the ER "stank with sweat and urine". Of course anything is possible, but my experience makes this seem unlikely to me.

By the way, Dr. Gratzer did his medical training in Winnipeg at about the time of the article on long ER waits in Winnipeg. There is nothing in his bio on the Manhattan Institute web site that indicates that he ever practiced medicine. That doesn't make him wrong, but the medical degree doesn't make him right either. His allegations are not corroborated and to me, based on my experience with the system, seem unlikely or at least exaggerated.

I grew up in Canada for 23 years and been State side to 17.

The doctor's experience of people waiting days for ER service, I've heard before. However it was more like 2-3 days. As far as I know the claims are generally right. They are the extreme cases in some examples, but they shouldn't happen at all.

A little more mundane and common, when I left, was a typical 3-6 month wait to see specialists and a few months for family doctor. (I always just about laugh out loud when a doctor wants to see me in 4 months and I go to schedule it with the receptionist and they say "we don't keep appointments out that far"). And other things like 4-8 month wait lists for things like bypass surgery.

The tricky thing about Canadian Healthcare, depending on Province, is you can encase yourself in a bubble and pretend its OK if you live in the right places in a handful of key cities. The main ones being Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa.

If the US had socialized medicine you would get adequate care if you lived in the right parts of New York, Los Angeles, and Washington DC. Why? Because putting in new hospitals and equipment will get the most political bang for the buck in New York and Los Angeles. As for Washington, the politicians run healthcare would be living there. Everyone else can rot in line for service.

Another thing that gives some a false impression of Canadian Socialized Healthcare is that people still buy Health Insurance to upgrade the quality of their care. One of the things it covered was instead of a 6+ person ward for your hospital stay for surgery it would upgrade you to a semi-private room. It also covered prescriptions. When I left, prescriptions weren't covered however they were price controlled.

How do canadians know they are being treated correctly if what they have is all they have to compare it to? We know what premium healthcare treatment is like. We want it. We will lose it if the dims get their way. Like I said earlier, the good doctors will go into private practice with self pay patients. The rest of those that could not afford self pay will be stuck with lower ability doctors.
What do you call a medical student that received straight d's on his report card? Doctor. ww

>The doctor's experience of people waiting days for ER service, I've heard before. However it was more like 2-3 days.

OH well that's much better then... LOL

In all seriousness, thanks jpm, interesting.

WW, in Ontario there were a handful places the super rich could use that were paid out of pocket. But otherwise, nearly everyone were forced to stay in the system. It wasn't clear to me if doctors were directly restricted or if they took any payment from the system they had to be 100% in the system. In any event I knew of no one myself who got treatment outside the system without going to the US for care.

Great example of the effectiveness of organizations like the Manhattan Institute and their well-paid henchmen like Gratzer. Companies who have a huge vested interest in the status quo, like Big Pharm, kick in a few of their spare millions to fund a piece like the one Kim referenced. It purports to expose the evils of an alternative system when, in reality, it's nothing more than a piece of propaganda, intended to foster the myth that change is bad. It rattles around the internets and morphs into some kind of evil commie plot. Be afraid! Run away!

The system needs to change. The aging population and their needs will join the nearly 50 million currently uninsured to create a public health crisis. Gratzer's horror story of the Winnipeg ER will be played out in nursing home and hospitals across the country.

I need to clear some things up.

The 5 day wait claimed, to my knowledge is extreme