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Now Come the Breast Feeding Nazis

New York City, the new nanny state, has declared war on formula feeding:

First came smoking. Then there were trans fats. Now the nanny-like city's public-health crusade is taking on the baby bottle.

Free formula samples and formula promotional materials are now banned from gift bags given to new mothers at the 11 hospitals run by the city's Health and Hospitals Corp.

Instead, new mothers will get a tote bag stuffed with disposable nursing pads, a mini-cooler for breast-milk bottles, and pint-sized T-shirts for the babies that proudly declare "I eat at mom's."

The move comes as World Breast feeding Week is set to begin tomorrow.

And today, city health officials will announce a campaign to promote breast-feeding instead of using formula.

"Nationally, there has been a push to return to breast-feeding," said Dr. David Garry, direc tor of obstetrics at Jacobi Hospital in The Bronx. "Human milk is still the best for newborn babies."

New York City is way out of bounds being so militant regarding breast feeding; it has no business telling moms or anyone else how they are supposed to feed their babies. But when you live in a city where the government imposes incremental government control of everything, this isn't that big of a surprise.


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Comments (83)

This makes my blood boil on... (Below threshold)
Peeved Guy:

This makes my blood boil on many levels.

1. The lefties scream about how the "our rights are being stripped" by the current administration and stuff like this is applauded. I guess women only have a choice regarding their baby while it is still in the womb, after its out, not so much.

2. You know, there are some women that CAN'T breast feed for various reasons. What is all of this doing to their self esteem and self worth? Two things that the left seem to cherish above national security, usually.


I wish the Must-Breast-Feed... (Below threshold)
GeminiChuck:

I wish the Must-Breast-Feed-Nazis would get together with the Never-Breast-Feed-In/near-Public-Even-If-Covered-Nazis would get together and duke it out and just leave the rest of us alone. But then, libs cant leave anyone alone, can they? Their whole being is to impose their beliefs on people just trying to live their life without the strife. gc

My theory is that the power... (Below threshold)
Farmer Joe:

My theory is that the powers that be in NYC are trying to get as many people as possible to move away so that there might be some freakin' apartments available.

Kim: I have a 'bone'... (Below threshold)

Kim: I have a 'bone' to pick with you, and it's not personal as I have said this before to people both in writing and in conversation... can we please reserve the term "Nazi" for actual Nazi? Can we stop using it to connote obnoxious and interfering sorts of people? Granted, I think the purveyors of the "Nanny State" are to be derided, but hardly likely to resort to genocide if thwarted or disobeyed.

I'm not trying to nit-pick: it's just that I grew up in Skokie, Illinois and many of my classmates lost family members in the Holocaust. Just my two cents.

Langtry,It's just ... (Below threshold)

Langtry,

It's just an expression of extremism, but I understand your point.

OK, I guess I am one of the... (Below threshold)
Denise:

OK, I guess I am one of the bad guys.
For years it annoyed me that the formaula companies are the ones who make the weight charts, pay for all the garbage in the pediatrician's clinics, give out these "oh too convenient" samples and we wonder why American children are obese and unhealthy.
I was not a militant (as you describe it) but I made sure my children DID have the best. None of that processed, chemical filled, over-caloried formula. They are all allergy free, healthy, and all plan to have breast fed babies also.

YAY for the banning of formula advertising to new moms.

Kim, this is hardly the iss... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Kim, this is hardly the issue you are making it out to be. Why was it OK for the hospitals to put free formula in the take-home bags for new moms? Why weren't you decrying that as mandating that new mothers use formula?

Also, from the article:

Mothers who request formula will still receive it.

This is not even close to the level of a ban, like with smoking and trans-fat. I dispise what the NYC government has been doing regarding bans on smoking and trans-fat, but your hyperventilating about this issue is just ridiculous.

Denise:"Both breas... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

Denise:

"Both breast milk and formulas contain 20 calories per ounce5"

http://www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/cons/acf2f78.htm

Not sure where you are getting your info about, "over-caloried formula", but thats not what I am seeing, also like to know what all these chemicals are you are talking about, not seeing that either. I am a proponent of breast-feeding as well, but there shouldn't be an anti-formula stance even out there.

Kim:<blockquot... (Below threshold)

Kim:

It's just an expression of extremism, but I understand your point.
I understood that to be the context of how you were using it. It's just that so many people have started to use it as almost slang, and I fear that the term's historical power is denatured the more we use it to connote anything other than systematic extermination of human beings.
My first daughter was born ... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

My first daughter was born 3 months premature, at under 2 pounds. "Over-caloried" formula, added to breast milk, is a big, big reason she is a healthy 4 yr old today.

And that stuff is EXPENSIVE, so I don't see what the reason is for not letting the companies give more of it away free. Or hiding it from people who might not realize they could ask for it.

Massachusetts did the same ... (Below threshold)
Jay:

Massachusetts did the same thing a while back. This 100% breast feeding family was incensed.

I have to say whatever work... (Below threshold)

I have to say whatever works is good enough for me, although it figures NYC is pushing what they think is best for people, and not what's best for the situation.

Langtry, I understand where you're coming from, but since Jerry Seinfeld originated the term "Soup Nazi", your point falls flat with me, especially since the term accentuates the negativity of it. You may as well scold him for starting the trend while you're at it.

Isn't it just a little funn... (Below threshold)

Isn't it just a little funny that this city, where ONE in every NINE are living off the public teat, uses such tactics ?

Denise,Whatever yo... (Below threshold)
Brian The Adequate Author Profile Page:

Denise,

Whatever your personal choice is or the choices of your daughters are with respect to breast feeding is fine with me. However, you should really reconsider before spouting off the type of garbage about formula you put on this thread. Mothers that can't breast feed have enough guilt in this day and age without people spouting selfrightous unscientific garbage at them.

I know the guilt trip cause I got to watch my wife go through it after our first daughter was born. The wife had a allergic reaction to medicine she was given in the hospital and had to choose to not breast feed. The La Leche league "counsler" did a great job making her feel like about it too.

I also know because we have two daughters now, one was almost 100% formula fed (due to my wife's medical complications) and the other was breast fed exclusively. They are both fit with the formula one being skinny (we had to take in the slims pants so they don't fall off her butt). They both have some allergies, but then again so do both of their parents and one is not worse than the other. If there is a functional difference in their IQ, then the formula fed one is smarter. However, it is hard to tell because A) the breast fed one is younger (8 vs 11) and B) the older one has a personality better suited for school.

I could go on, but the point is that formula vs breast is in no way shape or form the kind of destiny decided event you imply in your rant or is regulary touted by the breast feeding radicals.

Your rhetoric however can be more toxic then you make the formula out to be and I hope that you have the decency to keep your opinion to yourself around mothers that choose differently than you did.

I guess they Nanny-State in... (Below threshold)
Matt:

I guess they Nanny-State in NYC could use the slogan "Got Milk?" as a good campaign,if the cows would let them. Obviously, somebody in NYC had to justify a pay raise or budget.

I fear that the term's historical power is denatured the more we use it to connote anything other than systematic extermination of human beings.

Nazi is short for the National Socialist movement as evidenced by the German Govt prior to and during WWII, they also qualified as fascists. That Gvmt was known for lots of small nit-picking rules and regulations that were used for control of all aspects of life and ultimately used as tools to decide which type of person was okay and who would be eliminated. I prefer GENOCIDE for the systematic extermination of human beings. The Nazi's of Germany were slackers compared to the Soviets, Khmer Rouge etc.

Denise:and we won... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

Denise:
and we wonder why American children are obese and unhealthy.

And you believe it's more likely due to the lack of breast feeding and NOT from the increase in consumption of fast food ? What's your basis for this ?

YAY for the banning of formula advertising to new moms.

And you're against people being informed ? Or is it just that you're against the dissemination of information that's counter to YOUR beliefs ?

Denise is precisely the kin... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Denise is precisely the kind of "Nazi" Kim is talking about. Denise has it all figured out and we must obey. Langtry, sorry for the term, but couldn't help it.

My wife and I fed our son formula from day one. He is now 6'4" and has a son who is six. He also was fed formula. Yay, formula. What smart families choose. Oh yeah! No allergies anywhere. No obesity. Well, there goes Denises' theory. ww

Militant? Are you serious?... (Below threshold)
Diane:

Militant? Are you serious? How is encouraging breast-feeding militant? Formula companies give away tons of stuff to new moms, and they apparently are still allowed to if the new mothers want and ask for them. But for those who choose to breast feed, they now get their own their gift bags, something I would have liked to have. Instead, I got cases of fomula, coupons, and coolers with formula ads on them that went into a landfill.

Why on earth does everything mommy-relatated have to fall into a battle? Stay-at-home vs. go-to-work mommies. Breast feeding vs. formula feeding. Just because breast feeding is, in general, healthier, does not mean formula is evil. Is anyone really suggesting that it is? How does encouraging the widely recognized slightly-healthier choice make one a Nazi? We're not talking about a sin tax on formula. We're not talking about banning it's use in public places. This is really a bizarre and illogical perspective.

Diane:Militant? A... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

Diane:
Militant? Are you serious? How is encouraging breast-feeding militant?

That's not what's being done. It would be perfect fine for the hospitals to employ reason to encourage the mothers to breast feed. You understood that well enough in your previous post. Why are you pretending otherwise now ? To wit,

Diane:
YAY for the banning of formula advertising to new moms.

Banning and encouraging are NOT the same thing. Banning requires the use force. Encouraging requires the use of reason. When you cheer for the use of force over reason, expect people to call you 'militant' and 'Nazi' because they're correct.

I could not breast-feed, so... (Below threshold)
goddessoftheclassroom:

I could not breast-feed, so formula was the only option. My kids are healthy (thank heavens).

I think obesity could be tied to the solid food babies are given more so than the early breast or bottle, as well as to how much exercise the child gets. I made my own baby food to avoid sugar and preservatives.

Let the new mom choose which gift bag she wants, okay?

Scientifically speaking, br... (Below threshold)

Scientifically speaking, breast milk does provide important immunity building agents for infants that can reduce their number of allergies and other later immune system problems. For example, even cigarette smoke contains so many toxins and poisons that small infants can be poisoned and die from the breathing of secondhand smoke according to Philip Morris Corporation's statement on SIDS for example, as this is because of their weak immune system that is not fully developed. Young children who require ear infection surgery almost always have measurable amounts of nicotine agents in their urine due to secondhand smoke according to a medical study from Turkey. A general trend to encourage breast feeding is an important health decision for a new child and important to building a healthy immune system to prevent some of the damage caused by smoking and other illnesses such as colds or the flu.

Baby formula does not contain any immune system building agents for the baby by comparison. There is an important difference between the two.

Banning smoking and trans fats also have a serious scientific basis to outlaw. Smoking involves the unregulated release of serious pollution in a public place that contains 4,000, mostly illegal toxins banned by the EPA from industrial release such as lead, nickel and cadmium. It also causes sore throats, headaches, ear infections, and shortens the life of nonusers who breath secondhand smoke in a public place. It also involves the illegal distribution of a drug just as addictive as heroin(nicotine) to unwilling persons with secondhand smoke. Persons who do not smoke, do not because they have health problems or are intelligent enough not to become a slave to a highly addictive and expensive drug addiction, but public smokers make the decision to force their drug addiction on others. What needs to done is for Congress to criminalize the manufacture and sale of any tobacco product that produces illegal air pollutiuon that violate EPA regulations, any any smoke or fumes that impact the health of anyone other than the intended user. Since smokers are drug addicts, they will not easily quit their drug addiction without professional medical help, but at least protecting children and other unwilling persons from this drug addiction will dramaticly improve the public health situation in America and reduce sick time loss from school and work and reduce taxes and health care costs by tens of billions of dollars each year. Elinating smoking altogether could prevent an additional 30,000 housefires each year and save the lives of many firemen and nonsmokers who die as a result of actions of the smokers and their drug addiction fire hazzards.

Trans fats offer an unacceptable health hazzard when far safer products exist. Some worry about defective imported products from China and other places. But actions are needed to stop defective and dangerous products produced right here at home as well, such as trans fat foods and tobacco products that produce illegal air pollution or increase housefires by the thousands each year. Smoking in an automobile also presents another distraction that increases motor vehicle asccidents and illegal litter on public streets and highways as cigarette butts are the most common form of litter found on streets and highways. Some societies such as Singapore even ban chewing gum because of the litter problems it creates, so a crackdown on cigarette litter and air pollution is not an unusual request for a society that wants to be cleaner and more healthy.

Medical professionals would be ignoring their duty to society if they did not seek to eliminate some health hazzards that are easy to remedy. Health costs from the self inflicted problems like smoking, alcohol abuse, drug abuse, tran fats, etc., cost American society far more productivity and billions of dollars than the WAR ON TERROR for example.

From a mother who had troub... (Below threshold)

From a mother who had trouble breast-feeding, me:

Even as far back as 1974 the breast-feeding brigade at the hospital not only didn't give me an option, but started me with breast-feeding right off the bat, then pressured me into continuing to breast-feed my son. It's not that I didn't want to. I wanted very much so to give him the benefit of my anti-bodies among the other benefits of mother's milk.

While not giving you every detail of my ordeal, let me just suffice it to say I wouldn't wish my experience on anyone. But their insistence and determination to make me do it even with the extreme duress it caused me and my son, was unacceptable. Every complaint I made was met with, "It'll get better." I know what the pressure is like when it's grilled in to you that you're not a good mother unless you're breast-feeding.

Within a month my son was bottle feeding to preserve his health and my own pain and misery, but only after the insistence of my doctor and the pediatrician once they became aware of the situation. My daughter, who was born three years later went straight to the bottle and both of my children were healthy and never overweight. Incidentally, I am also familiar with the looks I got when I turned down the option to breast feed my daughter.

I think the point is that hospitals are using pressure to put these women into positions they may not want to be in, by withholding their options and only a specific request will make them do otherwise. Rather than say, "Here are your options," and explain the benefits and detriments of either and allow someone to make up their own mind, they're using the very tactic that they claim formula companies are using - pressure through advertising.

Formula samples "are" a bad idea in mothers' packages, but not because it pressures the mother into using it. It's because not every formula is right for every baby. The type of formual is something that should be decided by a doctor.

"Baby formula does not cont... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

"Baby formula does not contain any immune system building agents for the baby by comparison."

That is untrue paul. Formulas now are adding probiotic cultures similar to those present in breast milk that support the immune system.

Diane, you are completely missing the entire point of what is going on, nobody is saying breastfeeding shouldn't be encouraged, we are saying that formula feeding shouldn't be DISCOURAGED, which is what is happening in this case. Why not ask the mother if she is going to be breastfeeding or formula feeding and then give her the appropriate "basket", no guilt involved.

Mike, You u... (Below threshold)
Diane:

Mike,

You understood that well enough in your previous post...

That was my first post. You must have me confused with someone else.

We're talking about gift bags, here, not an infrigement of rights There is no ban on formula at the hospital, just a ban on the formula companies' gift bags. And new moms can receive those gifts and samples elsewhere. You get loaded up with the stuff from your first visit to the doctor. I'm not opposed to that.

This "ban" does NOT require the use of force. Don't be silly. Typically, formula companies provide gifts for new moms to the hospital. The hospital personnel hand them out to new moms. The NY hospitals are refusing to do that. They're substituting different gift bags. They are making a choice in what they prefer to encourage. They are not using force to ban new moms from using formula. On the contrary, they are providing the formula. They're simply not providing free labor and real estate for the distrution of formula. Shouldn't they be allowed that choice?

I can understand how a mom would feel guilty for using formula. That doesn't mean she has reason to feel guilty. It's just that Moms, by nature, feel guilty for everything they do with respect to their child. But our sometimes obsessive (out of a loving desire to be perfect to our children) tendency to second-guess every decision we've made and feel guilty over it does not mean advocates from the alternate choice are at fault for our guilt.

Before you start throwing around words like "militant" and "nazi", take a breath. Now repeat after me:

Gift Bags.

That was my first post. ... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

That was my first post. You must have me confused with someone else.

Oops. Yes, my mistake. I confused you, Diane, with Denise. Denise is the militant.

D-Hoggs, Diane,... (Below threshold)
Diane:

D-Hoggs,

Diane, you are completely missing the entire point of what is going on, nobody is saying breastfeeding shouldn't be encouraged, we are saying that formula feeding shouldn't be DISCOURAGED, which is what is happening in this case. Why not ask the mother if she is going to be breastfeeding or formula feeding and then give her the appropriate "basket", no guilt involved.

I've had three kids in three different hospitals in three different states, so I've probably had a pretty good sampling of gift bag procedures. I have never been given the option of a breast-feeding gift bag. And I never felt my choice was undermined by my lack of preferred goodies. By your logic, should I assume all those hospitals were militantly DISCOURAGING breast feeding by giving me a particular kind of gift bag. Or am I still missing the point?

I think it would be great if all mothers were given a choice of gift bags, the NY hospitals included. But if the hospital makes headlines for electing to make the switch from one kind to another, I think it's more a case of slow-news-day than MILITANT NANNY-STATE NAZIS.

Gift. Bags.

D-Hoggs, the baby formula i... (Below threshold)

D-Hoggs, the baby formula industry does try to claim some immune system benefits to the probiotic cultures, however unlike a natural mother's milk, there is not the agents present in baby formula that are equal to the common genetic agents in natural mother's milk that gentically link to the complexities of the common mother-child immune system.

Probiotics are highly used for their presevative qualities by the industry, and the impact on taste as well, often used in yogurt for example to give a slightly sour taste. They may well have some digestive effect as well to probiotics.

Digestion is a big issue with any milk related products. I know for example, that although cats like milk, they cannot really digest it very well unless treated with certain chemicals to aid digestion and to create a partial breakdown in the substance to act as a predigestive. And with the young digestive system in newborn babies, likely similiar problems may exist where digestion of nonmother's baby formula must be chemically assisted as well.

By your logic, should I ... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

By your logic, should I assume all those hospitals were militantly DISCOURAGING breast feeding by giving me a particular kind of gift bag. Or am I still missing the point?

If the hospitals actively took steps to remove information regarding breast feeding from those bags, yes that would be considering discouraging it.

And perhaps it is a slow news day, but nonetheless:

Free formula samples and formula promotional materials are now banned from gift bags given to new mothers at the 11 hospitals run by the city's Health and Hospitals Corp. [em added]

Banned - i.e. forbidden. Forbidden by whom ? by the state. When the state decides what information shall/ shall not be distributed based on what the state believes is best for you, what would you call it ?

Everyone who considers this... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Everyone who considers this some sort of right-crushing Nazi style tactic is completely over-reacting. They are NYC government run hospitals people. They can make their own rules, now if the government of NYC was trying to say that every hospital in the city was forbidden from giving out free samples of formula (at least without asking for them), then you may have just cause for such a reaction.

Sheesh, Diane is right, it's a slow news days and this is so ridiculous consdiering it's about frickin' gift bags.

And don't worry, anyone out there who has recently had a kid knows that free samples of formula will be mailed to your house, so no one will miss out on getting info about formula. And while I don't think formula compares to breast milk (my wife has breast fed both our children until they were 1), I understand the need for some to use it.

"By your logic, should I as... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

"By your logic, should I assume all those hospitals were militantly DISCOURAGING breast feeding by giving me a particular kind of gift bag. Or am I still missing the point?"

You are still missing the point. The breast feeding "goodie bag" option hasn't been widley available in the hospitals, and I do not feel that is right. I doubt anybody else here thinks that is right either. That is not what anyone is arguing. That information SHOULD be widely available, the difference is, they are REPLACING the standard formula "goodie bags" with breastfeeding "goodie bags" instead of ADDING the breastfeeding "goodie bags". It is about dissemination of information, why take away a standard to replace it with another standard instead of just ADDING a second CHOICE?

D-Hoggs:Agreed. I... (Below threshold)

D-Hoggs:

Agreed. I don't care how much scientific research is recited, it doesn't justify taking options away from people, whether it be smoking, drinking, transfats, goodie bags at the hospital for newborns...etc., etc., etc.

No one is taking options aw... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

No one is taking options away! It's a gift bag for crying out loud. You can still get all the information you want about formula, you just aren't going to get a free tub of it when you leave those hospitals. And that may not even be true because like I mentioned above, the article states that those who ask will still receive the formula.

Lighten up already. Crying so loudly about something so insignificant as this just dilutes the arguments against government restrictions that really do limit free choice, i.e. smoking, trans-fat, seat belt and helmet laws, and etc.

J.R., you are no longer all... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

J.R., you are no longer allowed to see the comments section for wizbang, only for wizblue. If you want to comment on wizbang instead of wizblue, you will have to ask Kevin.

I suppose all those here in... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

I suppose all those here in favor of the ban on formula product samples are in favor of a ban on all other product samples in the hospital as well? You know, the ones that all the different doctors give you for a myriad of different ailments etc...? If this is about product samples then lets ban them all, otherwise, it is just about working towards taking away an option.

We'll have to ask Paul Hoos... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

We'll have to ask Paul Hooson, he knows everything that is right for us. Speak to us. We need your direction. What to eat? What to drink? What to wear? ww

D-Hoggs, first, I would hop... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

D-Hoggs, first, I would hope that your first response to me was with your tongue planted firmly in your cheek since my conservative beliefs have long been established here at Wizbnag. And second, this is not a ban. Sure the author at the post used the word, but read the article, if you ask, you will receive formula. Now ask yourself, would you receive permission to smoke in a bar in NYC if you asked first? See the difference?

Tom, medical evidence shoul... (Below threshold)

Tom, medical evidence should be respected, and smoking fits into an unique health issue category where freedom of choice is taken away from nonsmokers by the smokers to enjoy good health or being able to breathe. Public smoking spreads 4,000 toxins such as lead, nickel and cadmium as well as chemical irritants for a half city block radius in all directions and can cause a fatal asthma attack or expensive and painful ear infections to nonsmokers who are sensitive to it. My mother spends $800 on medicine for ephysema caused by smokers from her workplace. Not much of a retirement gift to her. Today I have another painful ear infection mess because of public smokers. I simply walked outside my home to walk the dog and walked into a cloud of secondhand smoke and my head burns and my ears hurt since. I shouldn't have this forced on me by smokers.

One cigarette poisons and destroys thousands of cubic gallons of air. It also puts a drug in the air that destroys quality REM sleep and stimulates the brain in unhealthy ways. Automobile pollution involves less toxins than cigarette smoke and does not put a drug in the air by comparison. Automobiles are also necessary transportation. There is no legitimate reason to justify smoking or injury to nonsmokers. It is merely a selfish act that is completely contrary to every tradition of the JudeoChristian foundations of America. It is immoral for some to cause serious physical injury or even possible death to others because of their selfish drug addiction. But all drug addicts are immoral and selfish anyway, and all behave the same.

The Native American Indians started the tradition of smoking with the White Man as only something to do during special events such as a peace treaty signing or during a religious event. But often the White Man can't handle tobacco very well, and smokes all the time if given the opportunity, no special reason. This is clearly substance abuse. Tobacco has become the White Man's "firewater".

Nonsmokers don't smoke because they cannot tolerate the health problems related to it. Smokers often smoke not because they enjoy it, but because the drug(nicotine) is so highly addictive. Other drug users are not so compelled to use their drugs in public places such as heroin users as are smokers. Heroin abusers at least wait until they're home to shoot up. Smokers cannot. That's a sign of real desperation. Also psychiatrists state that 80% of persons with diagnosed mental illness are smokers, that they attempt to self-medicate themselves due to anxiety or other mental health issues. The tobacco industry preys on persons like this who do not have the mental capacity to read warning labels or understand the health problems they are causing themselves or others. In addition this becomes another expensive public health expense that is unneeded for society.

New laws to outlaw the sale and manufacture of any tobacco product that produces pollution that can impact anyone other than the user need to become law. Smokers have ruined my quality of life and I'm actively seeking legal representation to sue the industry out of business by work with other nonsmokers organizations around the country to hit the industry with many local lawsuits all over the nation to bankrupt the industry. When the tobacco industry has to pay for lawyers in numerous court districts all over the country at the same time filed by many nonsmokers all over America, maybe they'll get the message to clean up their act and start to respect the rights of nonsmokers to be free from their poisons. In addition some criminal charges against tobacco executives to put them in prison for profiting from the physical assault and injury to nonusers might get their attention as well and would be another good idea. Antiracketeering laws might just cover their actions and would provide up to 20 year prison terms for those that operate criminal enterprises that cross state lines that cause intentional injury to persons for the sake profit. Whatever it takes to clean up the smoking problem is needed for the sake of nonsmokers health. The right to smoke does not protect the right to harm or assault others and I'm sure the courts will agree when I file my first laesuit against the industry. Past lawsuits were filed by smokers, but never before by nonsmoking victims. This is something new that the industry will have a hard time defending itself with. I hope it will be the straw that breaks "Camels" back.

Health issues impact all persons, where politics should be no issue, just the overall public health benefit.

J.R. apparently you didn't ... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

J.R. apparently you didn't get my scenario. It is about CHOICES. You no longer have the option of seeing the wizbang comments, that has been replaced with the wizblue comments, if you want to comment on wizbang, you will have to ask Kevin first. See what I am getting at? Nothing to do with your conservatism.

The healthy nazis strike ag... (Below threshold)
spurwing plover:

The healthy nazis strike again

"Smokers have ruined my qua... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

"Smokers have ruined my quality of life and I'm actively seeking legal representation to sue the industry out of business"

Wow, THERE'S a big surprise!!!

It is fact that liberal idi... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

It is fact that liberal idiots like paul hooson make my blood pressure rise, thus degrading my health heart. I hearby notify you paul hooson that I will be suing you and your co-horts. Anyone that wants to join me in my crusade can contact me at idioticfrivolouslawsuits.com

paul hooson, I have a quest... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

paul hooson, I have a question, were you breastfed?

"...breast feeding is an important health decision for a new child and important to building a healthy immune system to prevent some of the damage caused by smoking and other illnesses such as colds or the flu"

"Today I have another painful ear infection mess because of public smokers."

If not, maybe you should sue.

D-Hoggs, I've complained to... (Below threshold)

D-Hoggs, I've complained to the tobacco industry repeatedly about their products caused both my mother and me serious health issues. My mother has been caused emphysema due to secondhand smoke at her workplace that now costs her $800 a month in medicine and is now virtually bedridden due to breathing problems. I have a number of $132.00 doctor visits for ear infections and lung infections to show you due to secondhand smoke exposure, sometimes just from stepping outside my house. You can always tell cigarette smoke. It stinks awful and burns unlike automobile or even wood stove pollution. And it damages my inner ear and causes me hearing loss which can become permanent with continued infections.

One company, Philip Morris accepts responsibility for causing these medical problems and admits blame according to emails to me, but so far has refused to pull their defective products off the market or pay our medical bills. A lawsuit on behalf of two nonsmokers is the first step to cleaning up their deadbeat act.

If you were forced to pay out big amounts of money for medical injuries for a product that you refuse to use, and a company admits guilt in causing these problems, then you can see my point. Other companies take responsibility to remove their defective products, but not the tobacco industry which even accepts that SIDS and the death on newborns is caused by their products but claims that it is up to government, not them to protect nonusers from medical injuries oe even death. A poor excuse. Read their own explanation of the problems their product creates for nonusers including Sudden Infant Death below:

Philip Morris health statement

d-hoggs, my bad, I did not ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

d-hoggs, my bad, I did not detect the scenario you were presenting and jumped to the wrong conclusion. That being said, your analogy is a contradiction..

You said:
You no longer have the option of seeing the wizbang comments, that has been replaced with the wizblue comments, if you want to comment on wizbang, you will have to ask Kevin first.

Your first sentence contradicts your last one. The option has not been removed, I just have to ask.

Really people, you're getting your panties in a twist over nothing.

Paul, I am sorry for your m... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

Paul, I am sorry for your mother's condition, sincerely, but I find it hard to beleive that there is nothing her job's HR can do about the situation, or that they don't bear responsibilty for the safety of their employees. If you want smoking to be illegal, fine, go after the government to make it illegal. Until such time, the tobacco industry he every right to do business in this country as long as they are operating within the laws, which they are. If you get hit by a drunk driver are you going to sue Budweiser next? If you get carpal tunnel are you going to sue Microsoft for their mouse? (actually something tells me you would do that) Once again, idiotic frivolous lawsuits.

J.R. there is no contradict... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

J.R. there is no contradiction there, the key part you are missing is "the option OF SEEING the wizbang comments" has been removed. Meaning you might not even know you have that option IF YOU ASK for it and are just stuck with commenting on wizblue. And we all know how awful that would be!

Im in ur gift bagz, stealin... (Below threshold)
Gift Bag Nazi:

Im in ur gift bagz, stealin ur formulaz.

Paul Hoosen:Nice l... (Below threshold)

Paul Hoosen:

Nice looooong lecture(s) comment(s). Lucky for me, I didn't bother reading all of them after "Tom, medical evidence should be respected...". Writing a thesis there? ;-)

Now, just where did I say I shouldn't respect medical evidence or scientific research?

Hold on! So you don't need to write another research paper, I'll answer that question for you. What I did imply by my previous comments, is that I'll read the research, then make up my own mind, thanks. Science will never justify a nanny state. Oh, and here's a tip. Try being aware of your surroundings and avoid walking into second-hand smoke when you're outside next time. Works every time for me. I know my yearly cigar never hurt anyone, as I have something called manners.

D-hoggs, we are talking abo... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

D-hoggs, we are talking about a gift bag. If the only information you are receiving is from a gift bag when you leave the hospital then that child has a lot more to worry about in the future. There is plenty of information available to every mom-to-be at their doctor's office, so to say they are unaware of their options is just ridiculous.

J.R.:Here's what w... (Below threshold)

J.R.:

Here's what we have our "panties in a twist" over:

"Free formula samples and formula promotional materials are now banned from gift bags given to new mothers at the 11 hospitals run by the city's Health and Hospitals Corp."

I don't think the baby formula industry would have a problem providing a gift bag right alongside the "breast-feeding" gift bag, do you? What's the problem with providing both, other than hospitals are trying to force feed (if you'll pardon the pun) their beliefs down the mother's throat?

J.R., whats ridiculous is t... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

J.R., whats ridiculous is to insinuate that all the moms-to-be ARE aware of their options. Good god, how many stories do we see about pregnant teens and the ridiculous and sometimes awful things that they do?!

I guess the older I get, th... (Below threshold)

I guess the older I get, the more firmly of the opinion I become that if I want to smoke, drink, or do whatever to myself or with myself I so desire, I should be permitted to do so, so long as it does not detrimentally affect someone else. The second it does so, the punishments should be swift and sizeable, and solely directed at me - after all, I damaged another person. And when the time comes that all of my frivolous activities have destroyed my heart/brain/liver/whatever, I should be forced to pay for the healthcare necessary to keep me alive as long as I like, be it by paying increased insurance rates my entire life, out-of-pocket expenses, or whatever.

Of course, that entire plan would take a level of personal responsibility and accountability that most Americans probably would be incapable of understanding, much less shouldering themselves.

It is not Glock that killed the cop, it is the criminal.

It is not Budwiser that killed your son, it is the drunk driver.

The lists go on, but why Americans these days are completely unwilling or unable to see the logic of them is completely beyond me.

However, the second someone signs over their own rights to make a choice to the government, you just signed away part of your life... part of your freedoms inherent as both a human and a citizen of America. We are not only creating our own Nanny State, we are asking - nay, demanding - for its development.

So what does this have to do with the topic at hand? Bugger it - do away with the "gift bags" entirely. Either that, or include a taste of all the various options for all the various details as possible. But the second the government bans something that I might or might not have had interest in (how would I ever find out now?), they have abridged my right of personal choice through educated (or not, that, too, is my choice) decisions, and I am becoming less and less forgiving of that.

(Oh, and for clarity, I am more and more in support of the legalization of drugs... so long as the punishments for crimes committed while using them are increased to mythic scales - someplace alcohol-related crime punishments should be as well.)

People, this is not a ban, ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

People, this is not a ban, only the author of the article said ban. If you ask, you will get the formula. Get your heads out of your asses.

d-hoggs, gift bags will not... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

d-hoggs, gift bags will not change ignorance, no matter what is inside of them. If a mother isn't aware that she can feed her kids either formula or her own breast milk then there is nothing any gift bag can do to help that woman.

And please, the minute percentage of women who don't know this going into labor is just to small to talk about.

"People, this is not a b... (Below threshold)

"People, this is not a ban, only the author of the article said ban. If you ask, you will get the formula. Get your heads out of your asses."

Get your head out of your own ass. It is a ban, or the mother wouldn't have to request it; it would be offered at the same time she's offered the breastfeeding materials.

One more time, what the hell is wrong with offering BOTH?!?!?!?

Tom, stop being so ignorant... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Tom, stop being so ignorant. If it was banned then even when the mother asked for it, she wouldn't be able to get it. Or are you unfamiliar with the term?

And why is it be the hospital's responsibility to even give out promotional information and free samples of formula? Just because it is done elsewhere or has been done before doesn't mean it's our right to get that material.

And there is nothing wrong ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

And there is nothing wrong with offering both. I wouldn't have a problem with it. I just don't see this action by the NYC hospitals as that big a deal, certainly not to the level Kim, the Post author, and commenters here made it out to be

I'm being ignorant? Ign... (Below threshold)

I'm being ignorant? Ignorant? When all I'm saying is offer both gift bags to the mother so she doesn't have to ask for it? Then you turn around, and say you don't have a problem with offering both? You freaking agree with me, then you call me ignorant?

If you can't see that these hospitals are deliberately trying to thrust their beliefs onto people by trying to make it more difficult to get the formula gift bags, and giving the impression that they may not even have them at all, then you're hopelessly naive. The whole point is, all they had to do, is to be up front, and offer both. Presto! No more problem! You know it, and they know it.

I guess I'd rather fit your definition of being ignorant than to be completely obtuse.

Holy cow, just offer everyt... (Below threshold)

Holy cow, just offer everything in one bag!

Why, why, why, keep the formula supplies in stock "in case" the mother asks for it? Where do they plan on putting those supplies that aren't given away? Who do they give it away to if they don't give it away to the mother? Why have hospital staff worry about how much to stock, and potentially be out of the formula supplies when they're asked for them, or why worry about being overstocked? Why make hospital staff responsible for giving or throwing away the extra formula supplies when they can just give it away to the mother right then and there, at the same time, and be done with it? Why make the hospital staff make two trips to the room? Does hospital staff love making their employees inefficient? Why make the mother wait in the room or the front desk or anywhere else until the hospital staff go and get the formula supplies after the mother asks for it? Why make the mother seem picky or feel like she's inconveniencing staff by having to ask for the formula supplies when she just got a free bag of breastfeeding supplies?

I have all these questions, you know, because I'm ignorant of the answers for them. I'm just one of those "ignorant" people, you know.

Tom you're being ignorant o... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Tom you're being ignorant of the fact that these items are not banned from the hospitals. And I didn't say that I agree with you, I said that I didn't have a problem with them offering both items in one gift bag.

Frankly, I don't see why you're all uproarious about this. Do you really believe the hospital is forcing people to breast feed instead of encouraging them? In my experience with the birth of our 2 children (at 2 different hospitals in 2 different states), there was never any pressure nor free formula given to us in a gift bag. As far as I see it this is much ado about nothing and you and some others here look at it as the gestapo dictating what is to be done about feeding your newborn.

Once you leave that hospital, usually in 2 days time, you are free to get formula or breastfeed your child. There is no law outlawing formula for your child.

Tom, I think your questions... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Tom, I think your questions are very easily answered.

Why, why, why, keep the formula supplies in stock "in case" the mother asks for it?
Because some moms have trouble breast-feeding or already know they are not going to do it.

Where do they plan on putting those supplies that aren't given away?
I imagine the same place they keep the supplies currently.

Why have hospital staff worry about how much to stock, and potentially be out of the formula supplies when they're asked for them, or why worry about being overstocked?
Have you ever worked in the medical field? Trust me, no sales rep would ever let the hospital run out of formula. And the hospital staff is not worrying about this issue.

Why make the hospital staff make two trips to the room?
What are you talking about? The hospital staff is constantly coming to your room, usually about every 4-6 hours and at that point they already know if you are going to breast feed or not. Come on.

Why make the mother wait in the room or the front desk or anywhere else until the hospital staff go and get the formula supplies after the mother asks for it?
You obviously have never gone through the process of childbirth. The gift bags are usually in the room the mom and child will stay in after the birth. It's not like you receive the gift bag when you are discharged from the hospital.

Why make the mother seem picky or feel like she's inconveniencing staff by having to ask for the formula supplies when she just got a free bag of breastfeeding supplies?
The mom may feel like she's inconveniencing the staff but that feeling would subside as the feeling for her baby's needs grows. It would be no big deal at that point.

I have all these questions, you know, because I'm ignorant of the answers for them. I'm just one of those "ignorant" people, you know.

As far as this instance is concerned, you are one of those people.

Holy. Freaking. Cow.... (Below threshold)

Holy. Freaking. Cow.

"And there is nothing wrong with offering both. I wouldn't have a problem with it."

"And I didn't say that I agree with you, I said that I didn't have a problem with them offering both items in one gift bag."

I'm a little confused. Do you, or do you not, agree with me that there is no problem offering both formula supplies and breastfeeding supplies to the mother in any way, shape or form? One bag, two bags...boxes...any form?

"Tom you're being ignorant of the fact that these items are not banned from the hospitals."

Wrong! I didn't say the formula supplies were banned from the hospital entirely--they're banned from the gift bag. You misunderstood me from the start, and continue to do so. I also didn't say they were forcing anybody to physically breastfeed. How could anyone possibly think that from what I wrote? I never said, nor implied, these hospitals were trying to force anything on mothers but their beliefs.

You completely made those statements up. You are the one being ignorant here, and you are fitting the definition of being obtuse perfectly. If not, then you're attempting to put words in my mouth so it fits your argument.

Once again. Read carefully. The hospitals banned the formula items from the gift bags they're giving to the mothers. Don't like the word banned? How about removed? Deleted? Not included? Excluded? The bottom line is, they're not offered, unless the mothers specifically ask for the formula supplies. They are no longer offering formula supplies as a free gift, unless the family specifically asks for them. This is exactly what I've said all along. There is no other reason to do this, other than to shove their beliefs into the faces of the family, and make them feel awkward for asking for formula supplies, if they even ask at all.

I have two kids myself, so I'm absolutely aware of the process. That's exactly why I have such a problem with it.

One more time. All the hospitals have to do is offer both supplies without the mother having to ask.

Problem solved.

Tom, I think your questi... (Below threshold)

Tom, I think your questions are very easily answered.

You completely missed the sarcasm. And again, I have two kids, so I know how the process works.

Have you ever worked in ... (Below threshold)

Have you ever worked in the medical field?

I haven't but my wife does, and she firmly believes giving medical staff one more thing to think about is always a disaster, especially those in nursing.

I could care less about answers to my "questions". The whole point was to show how ridiculous these hospitals were being by not choosing the single easiest opion. You missed the point. No surprise there.

I'm sick of hospitals forci... (Below threshold)
Gift Bag Nazi:

I'm sick of hospitals forcing their beliefs on us. Like "smoking is bad for you" and "exercise is good." Nazis!

Sorry I missed the sarcasm ... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Sorry I missed the sarcasm Tom, usually displays a sarcasm tag to show it online, otherwise your tone really didn't come across as sarcastic in your post.

Since when are hospitals required to offer free items? Breast feeding is better than formula feeding, that is known, why shouldn't a hospital push what is better for the child by not giving out free samples. Formula companies direct mail free samples to every new parent (since you have kids you should know this) so why does the hospital also have to do their work for them?

Again, this is much ado about nothing. I don't have a problem with whatever free stuff the hospital offers, but claiming they are breast-feeing nazis because they no longer will offer free formula samples is completely over-the-top.

There is no other reason to do this, other than to shove their beliefs into the faces of the family,

The other reason would be for the benefit of the child. And once again, you are free to get formula once you leave.

Seriously funny stuff. A h... (Below threshold)
Diane:

Seriously funny stuff. A heated argument between men over mommy gift bags.

I never got my formula gift bags until I left the hospital. Or maybe I just never noticed them until we were packing up to leave. Either way, the nurses always asked me if I would be breast or bottle feeding before the baby was even born. And if someone is uncertain, they always encourage her to give breast feeding a try, even for a day or two just to get the colostrum. Certainly the presence of a giftbag or lack thereof is not going to be a factor in that decision.

Tom, you seem to be unaware of how formula-fed babies are fed in the hospital. The gift bags are take-home bags and have nothing whatsoever to do with feeding the baby in the hospital. If formula isn't in that bag, it has no effect on hospital's personal supply of formula.

It takes a lot more determination to breast feed than bottle feed. It's painful. No one can give you a break. Ever. The lack of a free tub of formula and bib with an Enfamil logo isn't going to factor into the decision.

Gift bags do not change minds. The most you could possibly say is that the hospital is clearly advocating breast feeding as the better choice in general. And that seems to be what has everyone so upset.

I'm sick of hospitals fo... (Below threshold)

I'm sick of hospitals forcing their beliefs on us. Like "smoking is bad for you" and "exercise is good." Nazis!"

Another dork misses the point. I'm fine with breastfeeding or formula. I'm fine with educating people.

Somehow, formula feeding is bad now? Getting all the information is bad now?

Seriously funny stuff. A... (Below threshold)

Seriously funny stuff. A heated argument between men over mommy gift bags.

I'm really not irritated at anyone but the hospitals. Honestly. And I think this discussion has devolved into a reading comprehension issue.

Tom, you seem to be unaware of how formula-fed babies are fed in the hospital. The gift bags are take-home bags and have nothing whatsoever to do with feeding the baby in the hospital. If formula isn't in that bag, it has no effect on hospital's personal supply of formula.

OMG!!! I've had TWO kids!! I'm aware!! We're talking about the supply of TOTE BAGS and their contents...as a gift!!

For the last time, why is the hospital making a big production out of this? They obviously aren't against formula feeding, because they have to help mothers with breastfeeding trouble, so why are they making the changes with the gifts? It's sooooo simple.

It takes a lot more determination to breast feed than bottle feed. It's painful. No one can give you a break. Ever. The lack of a free tub of formula and bib with an Enfamil logo isn't going to factor into the decision.

Trust me on this--my wife made that very clear to me--both times. If the subject comes up at our house, that and childbirth, the litany of difficulties are gone over at least once. All of them.

There is no other reason... (Below threshold)
sean nyc/aa:

There is no other reason to do this, other than to shove their beliefs into the faces of the family,
Tom Blogical

Wrong. There is a perfectly reasonable reason to not distribute both - conservation. Why distribute formula to someone who is not going to use it?

These hospitals are making a choice to encourage breast-feeding (which has scientific evidence supporting the position that it is healthier), but if the mother says she has a need for formula the hosiptal will supply her with some.

Now there may be a better approach, ie asking the mother which she'd prefer before supplying here with either, but maybe the hospital is playing the odds that most mothers do plan on breast-feeding. (I don't know the numbers here; anyone have any idea of the ratio of breast feeding to formula feeding?)

I'm with J.R. here, this is being blown out of proportion on a slow news day.

Instead, new mothers wil... (Below threshold)

Instead, new mothers will get a tote bag stuffed with disposable nursing pads, a mini-cooler for breast-milk bottles, and pint-sized T-shirts for the babies that proudly declare "I eat at mom's."

My final statement will be directly on the topic of the thread. My problem is that it's about the principle of the whole pushing breastfeeding over formula feeding by the hospitals themselves. I could care less about which option the mom chooses, because it should be about what is best for the situation. I'm a believer in either option, because my family went through the process ourselves. Obviously, these hospitals aren't pushing what's best for the situation. They're pushing breastfeeding, and they're blatantly implying that it's better than formula feeding.

Obviously.

Personally I think they sho... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

Personally I think they should change the name of colostrum. Doesn't sound very appetizing.

As adoptive parent... (Below threshold)
Drake Milton:

As adoptive parents, my wife and I had to use formula. Yet, we received sneers and comments from the breastfeeding advocates. I understand the benefits of breastfeeding, but I wish people could be sensitive to the mothers who cannot breastfeed?

To active breastfeeding advocates: please do not allow your actions to fuel discrimination towards others.

For the last time, why i... (Below threshold)
Diane:

For the last time, why is the hospital making a big production out of this?

Who says they did? They just had a change in gift bag policy. The newspaper screamed the headline of a "ban". Now we're the ones fussing over gift bag ethics.

My problem is that it's about the principle of the whole pushing breastfeeding over formula feeding by the hospitals themselves.

Every formula ad says "while breast milk is best...". It's not a controversy. It might be debatable how much heathier, but why is it unreasonable for a hospital to advocate something they consider healthier for most people? It's not like hospitals and healthy choices are somehow incompatible subjects, like your mechanic sending your repaired car home with a free package of tofu burgers.

My dentist sends me home we a free toothbrush. Damn Oral-B pushing nazi.

OK, one more comment, and t... (Below threshold)

OK, one more comment, and that's all.

"Sorry I missed the sarcasm Tom, usually displays a sarcasm tag to show it online, otherwise your tone really didn't come across as sarcastic in your post."

You're right. I didn't do that, and I'm sorry. You have no reason to apologize, but accepted anyway.

"My dentist sends me home we a free toothbrush. Damn Oral-B pushing nazi."

LOL! What else would he send you? Breastfeeding supplies? ;-) There aren't inexpensive options to a toothbrush are there? Maybe different brands, but not different methods, as we have in breast feeding vs. formula feeding.

It's also not unreasonable for the hospital to simply offer both supplies in the tote, nor is it unreasonable to just quietly give the supplies the mother needs, depending on the situation, instead of picking a side and advertising free t-shirts that say "I eat at Mom's". Maybe it would be best if they just didn't give out any free items at all.

L8r, guys, I have people coming to the house.

Tom, my beef is with the id... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Tom, my beef is with the idea that what these hospitals are doing is akin to the ban on smoking in public and trans-fats in NYC. It is nothing of the sort and Kim's post and this article are blowing this way out of proportion. When the matter at hand is free gift bags, you could hardly call any action about what goes into them as fascist, i.e. breast-feeding nazis. That is misleading and sensationalistic, not to mention just plain stupid.

You state:
I could care less about which option the mom chooses, because it should be about what is best for the situation.
That situation is determined before the mom enters the hospital to give birth. I'm sure you and your wife knew ahead of time what you were going to try. Would a gift bag have changed your mind?

They're pushing breastfeeding, and they're blatantly implying that it's better than formula feeding.
It is better. There is no question about that. Not sure why you ended your post with that.

Obviously, these hospitals aren't pushing what's best for the situation.
That's a little presumptious and out of line, don't you think? Do you believe the nurses in those hospitals would not help a woman and her child if the woman chose to formula feed her baby, no matter the reason. It's not like they are going to ignore a screaming baby whose mother is having difficulty breast-feeding or prefers to feed the baby formula.

For crying out loud, we're talking about a gift bag. You know, free stuff; promotional material that will come in the mail to your house anyway. Why should hospitals even be used in that way?

J.R.:You make too ... (Below threshold)

J.R.:

You make too many wild assumptions. Breastfeeding isn't best for women who can't or won't do it, for their own reasons. I've explained my position about the hospitals' stupid decision over and over again in this thread.

And you're right, it's just a stupid gift bag. That's what makes the hospitals' decision to make such a clumsy point with them--and coordinating it with World Breast feeding Week--so freaking dumb.

Have a great day.

Tom seems to deny the benef... (Below threshold)
Diane:

Tom seems to deny the benefits of breast milk over formula, which is his perogative. But he seems to deny health care professionals their right to promote what they consider to be a health issue. As though the health industry has no business promoting their definition of good health.

However, what I find most curious, is that he is insisting his outrage is specifially the result of the promotion of one of two equivalent choices. I find that suspect. If a hospital switched from Pampers to Huggies, eliminating all Pampers coupons from gift bags, sending a small supply of Huggies home in said bags, would there be similar outrage? What if they could point to evidence that Huggies cost less, or that there were statistically fewer instances of diaper rash. I would hardly think that would make headlines. If that would stir no objection, then I don't think this one is the result of advocating one of two equvalents.

I think the objection here is the result of past experience with rude and judgemental people and the projection of those attitudes onto any who would promote breast-feeding as medically preferred for the majority of people.

Rudeness and jungementalism go both ways in this issue. For every bottle-feeding woman who's been made to feel as though she were somehow choosing comfort and convenience over baby's health, there's been another who's made to feel like she's debasing herself and lowering herself to the social status of a cow. And parents, especially brand-new moms, can be very sensitive to even the subtlest of reactions. Maybe even to the point of imagining offense and insult. Hence, over-sensitivity to ... giftbags.

Breastfeeding isn't best... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Breastfeeding isn't best for women who can't or won't do it, for their own reasons.

And the hospital will still provide formula for them, what's your point? There's nothing more wild about my assumptions than this statement from you:

Obviously, these hospitals aren't pushing what's best for the situation.

You have no idea what they're doing, only that they're no longer providing free formula. Sheesh.

That's what makes the hospitals' decision to make such a clumsy point with them--and coordinating it with World Breast feeding Week--so freaking dumb.

Agreed. But don't liken it to something it's not, i.e. nanny-state style, banning, breast feeding nazis. All those terms overstate what's going on here.

Tom seems to deny the be... (Below threshold)

Tom seems to deny the benefits of breast milk over formula, which is his perogative."

Wrong, and yet another wildly incorrect assumption. I think breast feeding is healthier. I don't like the fact the hospital is using free products (products pushed to make more money for suppliers--give all suppliers/manufacturers the same opportunity please) to push their ideas, and therefore put mothers who don't want to, or can't breastfeed, in an uncomfortable position. Your second point, like the toothbrush example, doesn't apply. These are two differing methods.

The hospital is making it an issue. I'm responding to it.

I think the objection here is the result of past experience with rude and judgmental people and the projection of those attitudes onto any who would promote breast-feeding as medically preferred for the majority of people.

Partially true, but I'm not projecting anything onto the hospitals. My main objection is how the hospitals handled the idiotic decision. The change should have been a public announcement to provide either option in coordination with the mother. Couldn't they use another method to promote their recommendations? Like their own literature? And who the hell doesn't know about the benefits of breastfeeding nowadays?

And the hospital will still provide formula for them, what's your point?

Another wild assumption on your part. I never said nor implied they wouldn't supply it. My beef is, why make the mother ask, and if she's not made to ask, why the big production over the change to breast feeding supplies?

And once again, they are not including the formula in the (now agreed upon as pointless) free tote bag. You keep wanting to ignore this point, and they are banning it, excluding it, eliminating it, removing it, or whatever term you want to use for it. The bottom line is, it's not offered in the gift bag, but the mom has to ask for it--oh, but wait--she really doesn't have to ask for it because they'll provide it anyway. What kind of stupid procedure is that for an idiotic gift bag? If it's just a stupid gift bag, then treat it that way. Don't treat it like it's breast feeding awareness week, you know, something that includes a "catch". Provide formula, breast feeding stuff, or anything else that floats their boat. Treat it like a gift. Or hey--just get rid of it.

Man. We keep rehashing the same things, and I keep having to defend myself against wildly untrue assumptions. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

And once again, they are... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

And once again, they are not including the formula in the (now agreed upon as pointless) free tote bag. You keep wanting to ignore this point, and they are banning it, excluding it, eliminating it, removing it, or whatever term you want to use for it. The bottom line is, it's not offered in the gift bag, but the mom has to ask for it--oh, but wait--she really doesn't have to ask for it because they'll provide it anyway. What kind of stupid procedure is that for an idiotic gift bag?

Tom, is it really that difficult for hospital staff to add a thing of formula to a bag that doesn't have one? Don't you think you're making a mountain out of a molehill?

Your case scenario:
-Woman gives birth
-Hospital gives tote bag with breast milk goodies in it
-woman says, I can't breast feed I'll be using formula
-nurse goes to closet, gets free sample of formula, places in free tote bag

Oh the horror of the extra burden on the hospital staff!

We keep rehashing the same things, and I keep having to defend myself against wildly untrue assumptions.

That's because you still keep harping on this idea that removing a free item from a free gift bag is somehow depriving women of choices by making them feel uncomfortable. There are pamphlets and information available at every OB's office about breast vs. bottle feeding (be it by LeLeche or Enfamil). These hospitals are advocating breast-feeding, something clinically proven to be better than formula, why shouldn't they do that? And for those that choose not to and can't breastfeed, they will still get some free formula. I don't see a problem here.

Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?
Agreed.

Here's the bottom line J.R.... (Below threshold)

Here's the bottom line J.R.. I think it's absolutely stupid on a practical level and from a business perspective for a group of hospitals to provide a conditional, exclusionary gift to people. It's the kind of thing that's not courteous, it's a pompous and arrogant thing to do. If you're going to provide a gift to people, make it inclusive and don't put conditions on it. Or don't give the gift in the first place.

It has nothing to do with the care the patient is getting. It has nothing really to do with a step-by-step procedure of giving the gift, or your assumption of the scenario you assume I believe. It has nothing to do with being a Nazi. It has nothing to do with what they're trying to educate to people.

It's about the principle of gift giving. It's just that simple. The article describing this whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. It's a fiasco from the getgo.


"Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?
Agreed."

Thank God.

Isn't it amazing how warped... (Below threshold)
J.R.:

Isn't it amazing how warped reactions can be to a simple free item. Unbelievable.




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