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"A jihadist with a briefcase can destroy more than a thousand men with guns."

The war being fought by militant Islam against America and the West is being fought on many fronts. The stereotype -- the barely-literate guy in a turban with an AK-47 -- is just one part of the threat, and -- in some ways -- not even the greatest threat.

Abdul the camel-shtupper is the cliche', the one that most people visualize. He's dangerous, but strictly small-scale. He's the type that planned to attack Fort Dix, the type that the Circuit City guy busted. Big splash, little long-lasting effect.

Moving up the continuum, we have the more sophisticated terrorists. These are the ones who cause the real damage. Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas and the like. These are the patient ones, the ones who have access to real resources and the knowledge and training and skill to use them the most effectively.

They are the tough ones. Abdul is relatively simple. He tends to blow himself up or otherwise eliminate himself. The Osamas, the Khalids -- they cause the big body counts.

Luckily, there are ways to deal with them. They got high-powered weaponry? Send in the military. They have state backing? Go after the state that backs them. They shuffle money around? Shut it down and take it away from them. It's not easy, but it can be done.

And then there are the most dangerous Islamists of all -- those that who have studied our ways extensively, They know a great deal about us, our systems, our procedures, our laws, and they use that knowledge to try to destroy us. And most dangerous of all, they tend to do so within the law, so our most potent weapons are off the table.

These legal terrorists are the ones who pose the greatest long-term threat to our way of life. They are the ones who lobby for special laws to "protect" Islam, who send out letters threatening lawsuits, and work to destroy their targets through intimidation and legal bills.

Case in point: CAIR.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (a named but unindicted co-conspirator in at least one terrorist trial) has a staff of lawyers at the ready, primed to go after anyone anywhere who might "defame" or "intimidate" or "threaten" Islam.

For example, the passengers who reported the suspicious behavior of the "Flying Imams." CAIR's attorneys aren't just suing the airline for kicking them off, but the passengers who -- in good faith -- saw things that troubled them and reported them to the airline. As has been noted, the message here is clear: if you see something suspicious, shut the hell up or expect to spend several years and an assload of money defending yourself in court.

And if you want to have someone talking about what they think of Islam, you might get sued over that, too.

Or if you are just sick and tired of hearing about how wonderful Islam is and want to express your disgust with the "Religion Of Peace," they'll get you arrested.

On occasion, I thought that John Edwards and his particular ilk of parasite would cause the most damage to our nation -- and they've certainly done a number on the health care field. (Compare stats on OB-GYNs in his home state before and after he decided to turn them into his personal cash cow.) Recently, He Who Needs No Linkage pointed out another class of barrister that certainly needs to be considered among the ranks of the vile.

But lawyers like CAIR's in-house infernal minions and "progressives" who've transitioned into traitors like Lynne Stewart... they pose a major threat to us.

We need to find a way to deal with them, in such a way that does not wreck our existing system. The last thing we need is another "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" moment.

The John Doe amendment is a good start. Stiffer penalties for lawyers who violate the law in their clients' interests would be another. Perhaps a carrot to go with that stick -- a reward system for lawyers that report outright criminal conduct by their clients carried out in their presence. (I believe this is already covered by existing laws as exemptions to the lawyer-client privilege, but I have no issue with tossing in some incentive besides "immunity from being sued" if it deprives the enemy of a useful ally.)

Anyone else have any ideas on how to remind our country's legal eagles that they are Americans first, officers of the court second, and attorneys third?


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Comments (48)

One way to deal with them i... (Below threshold)

One way to deal with them is by overhelming them with volume. A sufficient number of critics and publicists discussing Islam's innate tendencies toward violence and oppression would leave them unable to choose among targets. The Blogosphere is particularly useful in this regard.

Of course, all such criticisms should be meticulously referenced. Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch is very useful in this regard.

Or give them a taste of the... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Or give them a taste of their own medicine. Everytime one of the "imoms" calls anyone an infidel, sue their ass for hate speech.

<a href="http://counterterr... (Below threshold)
Wethal:

Pattern of lawsuits


NRO Corner linked to an amazing article chronicling radical Islam's (mostly CAIR) long use of lawsuits in this country to silence critics.

Jay...I agree....."T... (Below threshold)
nogo war:

Jay...I agree.....
"The John Doe amendment is a good start. Stiffer penalties for lawyers who violate the law in their clients' interests would be another. Perhaps a carrot to go with that stick -- a reward system for lawyers that report outright criminal conduct by their clients carried out in their presence. (I believe this is already covered by existing laws as exemptions to the lawyer-client privilege, but I have no issue with tossing in some incentive besides "immunity from being sued" if it deprives the enemy of a useful ally.)

.... Attorney General.. Alberto Gonzales

(opps sorry...he is an honorable honest man who is subject to partizan abuse...)

Anyone else have any ide... (Below threshold)
jim:

Anyone else have any ideas on how to remind our country's legal eagles that they are Americans first, officers of the court second, and attorneys third?

How about all of the above, applied to lawyers who try to find legalistic parsing violate the Constitution?

(cough)Gonzales(/cough)

'Or if you are just sick an... (Below threshold)
Rance:

'Or if you are just sick and tired of hearing about how wonderful Islam is and want to express your disgust with the "Religion Of Peace," they'll get you arrested.'

If you read the facts of the case, the guy stole the Korans that he crapped on. If your Bible were stolen, thrown in a public toilet, crapped on, and the person who did it admitted it to the police, do you think that would be grounds for a criminal complaint?

CAIR may or may not be scum, but the filing of the charges was up to the DA, not CAIR.

Again, it's free speech when you when you crap on your own copy of the Koran, it's criminal when you steal the Koran that you are crapping on.

Another helpful strategy, J... (Below threshold)

Another helpful strategy, Jay, would be to nullify the perception of plutocratic hypocrisy. It is difficult for one generally legitimate group to abstain from appearing to intentionally take advantage of the judicial system that protects and hires Klansmen(Ku Klux Klan).

In other words, if it truly is a war on terror, why haven't we arrested the KKK?

Rance, as you said, "If you... (Below threshold)

Rance, as you said, "If you read the facts of the case," you'll note that the Koran in question was the college's and NOT any individual's. So the guy ought to be charged with vandalism. The piling-on of these "hate crimes" is -- if you'll pardon the expression -- bullshit. And note the arresting officer is a favorite of CAIR's.

J.

Charles, have you noticed t... (Below threshold)

Charles, have you noticed the current state of the KKK? Their old headquarters is now owned lock, stock, and barrel by the SPLC, I believe, and they can barely organize a march in a phone booth. They're dead -- they just haven't realized it yet.

They are annoying and repulsive, but they've been spanked thoroughly. If they start getting rambunctious again, we'll stomp on them again. Until then, I say we let them continue to be assholes -- it makes it easier to keep an eye on 'em.

J.

How about both nogo war and... (Below threshold)
marc:

How about both nogo war and jim exit "Trolldom" and comment on the posts topic.

For the record I would embrace jhow66's idea. Anyone who utters or writes the word "infidel" should immediately be hit with a lawsuit on behalf of "John Doe."

As military strategists, th... (Below threshold)

As military strategists, theorists, and artists over the century have discovered and rediscovered, the art of war is not so much about destroying the other civilization (or, at least, not always), but rather destroying the other civilization's will to fight, much less win.

With the Democrats successfully waging a battle against our will to win, the radical Islamics have correctly decided it is time to assault our will to fight. And, honestly, who would be willing to speak out against them if every person before you has faced thousands of dollars of legal fees, however many hours/days lost in court, and all of the other associated costs, whether they actually got off from CAIR's idiotic charges or not? I like to think I would, but with my family in consideration, I am not so sure. And God forbid that CAIR starts winning some of their outrageous lawsuits.

And before you go too far down that chain of thought, Rance, scroll back through the archives of this weblog. A few days ago, a person was charged with criminal actions that had absolutely nothing to do with stealing, even though he defaced Korans he stole. Instead, the charges had much more to do with his "insult" against Islam - and, unless I am misremembering (probable), CAIR was not even involved.

One has to wonder when the tipping point comes that we start doing it to ourselves more than CAIR does...

s/"even though he defaced K... (Below threshold)

s/"even though he defaced Korans he stole"/"even though he stole the Korans he defaced";

I swear I am not dyslexic...

I say change the suit rules... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I say change the suit rules. You can sue, but if you lose you pick up the courst costs and attorney fees. Like in England. Then you will see fewer law suits, few settlements. The deep pocket can run both ways. If you really believe in your cause, you will take the risk. ww

Or give them a tas... (Below threshold)
jpe:
Or give them a taste of their own medicine. Everytime one of the "imoms" calls anyone an infidel, sue their ass for hate speech.

That wouldn't go very far. The case would be tossed real fast-like, the plaintiff would have to pay defendant's legal fees, and would likely be subject to counterclaims for violating SLAPP laws.

CAIR's attorneys aren't just suing the airline for kicking them off, but the passengers who -- in good faith -- saw things that troubled them

For the hundred millionth time, CAIR alleged bad faith, and had enough factual claims in their claim to get to a jury. The John Doe law wouldn't change that.

So what to do, in response to the question posed? Two possible avenues I see: either a) start a non-prof that will defend those that would be sued by CAIR; or b) in the more limited instances of reporting to authorities, give the government an obligation to defend the reporter if it makes a preliminary finding that the report was in good faith (and the burden can be tweaked depending on how aggressively we want to respond to these things)

I googled this a bit and fo... (Below threshold)
dc64:

I googled this a bit and found evidence that perhaps not all muslims supported the threatened lawsuit. This USA today blog entry, http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/03/post_47.html, has a link to this statement from the American Islamic Foundation for Democracy: http://www.aifdemocracy.org/news.php?id=2988

Although I don't know them, they take some nice shots at CAIR.

I believe the "John Does" (... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

I believe the "John Does" (Passengers) have been dropped from the suit.

Don't be so sure the KKK is dead Jay. They have been driven underground yes, but not yet dead.

Rance,If someone sto... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Rance,
If someone stole any book from my shelf and destroyed it, it would be a crime. But would it be a hate crime?

Charles,
I agree. Let us put Senator Byrd in jail ASAP.

jpe, CAIR is not anywhere n... (Below threshold)

jpe, CAIR is not anywhere near a jury on claims against passengers.

Firstly, "Universal Heal... (Below threshold)
RobertF:

Firstly, "Universal Health Care" is in every American's best interest *except* the greedy, overpaid executives at for-profit Health Care Companies. If you right wingers want some respect I suggest you stop behaving like lackies for the Health Care industry and stand up for Universal Health Care.

Secondly, if you right wing nuts would like to actually do something useful, consider telling your "leader" Bush to stop ruining the country with his absurd push to convert corn into a substitute for oil. Other than bribing farmers in the corn belt to vote republican, the only thing your "leader" Bush's corn energy is doing is increasing inflation and steering research money from truly viable alternatives such as solar energy and wind power.

Thirdly, you right wing nuts are slowly improving as pertains to the untruths and lies that have been swirling around concerning Lynne Stewart. If you take the time to go to her website ( http://www.LynneStewart.org ) and read the full pdf file containing her appeal to her conviction it will become readily apparent that her appeal has a very strong probability of being successful. That by the way is exactly what the sentencing judge told her when her gave her a twenty eight month sentence and allowed her to remain free while the appeal was processed.

You right wingers are not bad people, but you need a good liberal to intervene now and then, to straighten you out and keep you honest.

It would do all of you well to bear in mind that a recent study concluded that in excess of twenty percent of all jury convictions are of innocent people. "Leader" Bush personally approved over 150 executions when he was governor of Texas. That means he personally approved the death of in excess of 30 completely innocent people. Think of that and try to be humble about your blanket statements and over-arching prejudices. It would do all of you a world of good to consider how often you are wrong in the details you bring to bear.

"Firstly, "Universal Hea... (Below threshold)
rrita m:

"Firstly, "Universal Health Care" is in every American's best interest *except* the greedy, overpaid executives at for-profit Health Care Companies."

It's easy to generalize, isn't it? Socialized medicine is already alive and not-so-well in Canada. Here is a perspective on its fallacies:

"In places like Canada where socialized medicine already exists, people wait a long time for what we consider routine operations and procedures. They may die waiting for their turn to get the treatment they need, which might more easily be procured in a country with free market health care. Canadians living near the border of the U.S. come here for operations they can't get in a timely manner in their own country."

Robert, do the nurses know ... (Below threshold)
Jo:

Robert, do the nurses know you're using the internet? Just curious.

And quit mixing your pills. Especially if you want to come across as somewhat coherent, which you did not in your post.

Thanks.

"over 150 executions"-did y... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

"over 150 executions"-did you get a pardon? Also how did healthcare get in this thread/
Sorry you lost your case when you used the word "Stewart".

"Abdul the camel-shtupper i... (Below threshold)
nogo war:

"Abdul the camel-shtupper is the cliche', the one that most people visualize"
... the cross of Islam and Yiddish in a disparaging manner in one sentence...impressive...
by the way maybe most people you know visualize this...most of the people I know don't..
So I guess as slick Willie would say..it depends on your definition of "most people" is..

by the way..you folks DO know what Shtupper means in Yiddish don't you? ..heck I'm not even Jewish and I know...
2 rabbis walk into a bar....

robertF:Sorry gove... (Below threshold)
marc:

robertF:

Sorry government run and paid for health care ISN'T in everyones best interest. I pay for mine, in addition to what is available as a retired military member, under ANY gov plan I pay twice. For myself and family and for someone else who is NOT. Not to mention the millions of illegals that are leaches on the current system.

It would do all of you well to bear in mind that a recent study concluded that in excess of twenty percent of all jury convictions are of innocent people. "Leader" Bush personally approved over 150 executions when he was governor of Texas. That means he personally approved the death of in excess of 30 completely innocent people.

BDS at it's finest!

What the hell kind of "study" comes up with a figure of in excess of? That's some study, or a delusion.

That aside, even if it is accurate, how do you know the figure translates to Texas? You don't but it fits your hate the Republicans, hate Bush narrative doesn't it.

Go back to the DKos kiddies.

nogo war... I doubt very s... (Below threshold)
marc:

nogo war... I doubt very seriously if anyone gives the slightest damn what you know or don't know.

nogo: I spent several years... (Below threshold)

nogo: I spent several years dating a Jewish woman. OF COURSE I know what I said; I chose that term both for the contrast (using a Yiddish term against an Islamist was chosen for maximum offensiveness for its target, maximum humor for bystanders) and to avoid the crass Anglo-Saxonism that would have broken the timbre of the piece.

But if you prefer, go ahead and read the phrase as "camel-fucker." It matters little to me.

RobertF, stripping your comment of everything not related to the actual topic of my posting, I am left with you citing Lynne Stewart's innocence on... Lynne Stewart. "She's innocent -- look here, she says so!"

Just for giggles, I downloaded and took a look at it. And you bring up another major flaw with our legal system: a 329-page document is called a "brief." I've read smaller NOVELS -- and more plausible ones.

As for the rest... you showed the discourtesy of dumping your tirade on us without any connection to the topic at hand, so I feel no compunction to answer the same tired laundry-list of schlock I've dealt with numerous times before. I might do a point-by-point rebuttal later, or I might not. It depends on how the mood strikes me.

J.

"...Sorry government run an... (Below threshold)
RobertF:

"...Sorry government run and paid for health care ISN'T in everyones best interest. I pay for mine, in addition to what is available as a retired military member, under ANY gov plan I pay twice...."

Marc, I have worked for 31 years. The three long term jobs I had as an employee, all three of those companies fired all their employees after either being acquired by a bigger company or going out of business. When a person loses their job, they get to keep their health benfits for 18 months (it's called COBRA) but only if they can to pay about $300 per month (for a single person), after which they are on their own.


I have now been a consultant for the last ten years. Because of my consulting I know first hand what health care costs when a person buys it himself because it is not provided by an employer. The rule is that once a year the health provider raises their prices. The last prices increase I experienced was an additional one hundred dollars per month, to $560 per month. The year *before* that the price increase was two hundred dollars per month. Prices are going up like crazy.

An employee of a good company can expect to pay about $100 or so each month for a decent health plan because the employer pays the rest. But a consultant working at the same company has to buy his own health insurance. For a single person in very good health it costs about $560 per month for an average, not all that good health care plan. That's just for one person. And for that price, each doctor's visit has a co-pay of $30 and no more than half of drug prescription cost is paid for by the health insurer.

In the older days (the 1960's and 1970's), a person joined a company and stayed there a long time. Those days are gone. People get fired and laid off right and left through no fault of their own. There are 45 million Americans how have no health insurance at all.

Even those of us with expensive health insurance get kicked out of the plan if we have any kind of illess or disease. They can say it is a pre-existing condition. Or if they let you stay in the plan they raise your monthly rate so high it's impossible to afford. And you can never switch to another health care plan because no other health provider will accept you because you have a disease already.

Health care costs are the biggest cause of bankruptcy and poverty in this country among older people.

I urge you to see the movie Sicko.

America needs Universal Health Care.

Robert F., I sure hope you ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Robert F., I sure hope you have health insurance because you are one sick shtupper. You prattle on about issues using a very broad brush. Then you end it with a recommendation to watch a Michael Moore film. You were barely hanging on with most of your comment then you threw the little credibility you might have had out the window. See: Shootingmichaelmoore.com to get the low down.

I am on Cobra right now. It costs me $444.00 a month. I need it, want it so I sacrifice to keep it. I do not expect others to pay my way. If I could not afford it, I would have to do without. I do not know where you get your 45 million uninsured people figure from, but I would like to see a breakdown of: Age, if working, if able to work but doesn't, legal status in this country, are some in prison, education status, etc. Most americans (except liberals) work hard to get ahead in this country. We like to consider ourselves part of the solution instead of the problem. There are many, many contributing factors for healthcare costs, but in your limited mind you only see greed, which demonstrates to me you have no concept of our capitalistic system. Stock holders expect profits. To sum it up for you: Republicans believe in individuals, democrats believe in government. ww

"For the hundred million... (Below threshold)

"For the hundred millionth time, CAIR alleged bad faith, and had enough factual claims in their claim to get to a jury."

What were those factual claims of CAIR's? Things that an investigation by the FBI, Airline officials and officials of Homeland security didn't find. Things that CAIR hasn't stated other than to simply deny they engaged in the behavior reported.

I answered this question of yours in another thread, if you had cared to read after you drop your little pearls of wisdom and split.

CAIR is trying to establish a precedent for "thought crimes". They're trying to establish that these people are prejudiced first and if they can do that, they will use that premise to establish that that prejudice is what caused them to make up stories.

For the "hundred millionth time", jpe. Lengthy investigations during and after the incident have not turned up any evidence of bad faith. Stories of their behavior were corroborated by many people. So what are they suing them for? They're suing them for "not liking Muslims".

"I urge you to see the m... (Below threshold)

"I urge you to see the movie Sicko."

I urge you to turn in your Blockbuster's card.

I lived in Davison, Michiga... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

I lived in Davison, Michigan for ten years, the birthplace of Michael Moore. Folks there remember him as a pain in the ass on the school board. So honored are they, there is a dog run named for him.

After "Roger and Me", Moore encouraged the Flint politicians and Unions to fight GM. The mayor said FU to tax concessions. GM left. Flint went bankrupt. Flint is closed.

Turns out Moore met Roger Smith and the movie was just lies.

If Michael Moore does for health care what he did for Flint, Michigan...

____

For yet another time, I have been to Cuba and been in the regular hospitals. They are crap. Cuba is crap. Basket case. Nothing we need there.

How to get the lawyers to r... (Below threshold)

How to get the lawyers to remember they're citizens before they're lawyers? Think outside the box, strip their citizenship if they won't respect it, and then deport them. It's a modest proposal, but it has its appeal.

Then we can get to work on reminding our politicians, journalists, and the folks at YouTube who host jihadi videos. The list is long, but maybe Shakespeare was right. First, the lawyers.

"...For yet another time, I... (Below threshold)
RobertF:

"...For yet another time, I have been to Cuba and been in the regular hospitals. They are crap. Cuba is crap. Basket case. Nothing we need there...."

Robert the Original,

I agree with you that communist countries suck, big time. I had a girlfriend who had come here from the Ukraine and have heard through her how really, really bad communist bureaucracies are. The politicos live in luxury while everyone else spends half their lives waiting in lives for shoddy merchandise and poor service.

I also concede to you on Roger Moore. You know much more than I do about him. Having said that, I did think Sicko was a very good documentary which is worth seeing, on an important subject. I do agree with you that the other of his movies which I have seen have seemed to be more entertainment than educational in nature and one sided. But his health care movie seems like a more balanced, thoughtful movie than the others.

Americans are very ignorant about what goes on in other industrialized, western countries. America is the only industrialized, western country in the *entire* world that does not have universal health care.

Being in favor of Universal Health Care is simply good business. It would save corporations billions of dollars. It would save billions of dollars in reduced paperwork. It would save doctors billions of dollars in reduced clerical staff. Doctors would have more time to treat people instead of worrying about health insurance paperwork.

Yes, yes, yes, Cuba is an awful place as are all communist countries.

But Universal Health Care is no different than compulsory public education. It's exactly the type of service that the government can provide far better than profit-based health service companies.

Again, America is the only industrialized, western country in the *entire* world that does not have Universal Health Care. And America has the most expensive health care system in the world and *still* ranks as the worst health care system of all industrialized nations by nearly every measure.

Robertf, (Formaldehyde?)</... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

Robertf, (Formaldehyde?)

I was just taking my dad to the doctor - medical office building - Ontario plates all over the place.

hmmm....

How about both nogo war ... (Below threshold)
jim:

How about both nogo war and jim exit "Trolldom" and comment on the posts topic.

Marc, I feel that pointing out that Gonzalez is a lawbreaker **is** commenting on the post's topic.

I am for lawyers being punished for doing wrong. I am very much for lawyers putting their country first.

I am pointing out that these principles should apply not only for lawyers you probably disagree with, politically - if it's going to be actually just, it should apply to lawyers that you *agree with*, also.

Robert the Original,... (Below threshold)
RobertF:

Robert the Original,

It's not rocket science to realize that people with a lot of money will pay extra to get premium service. Sure there are rich people who will drive to the U.S. so they can pay a doctor for special v.i.p. service. That's what rich people do, have done, and always will do. What does that have to do with anything?

Now look at the converse. Bush says that children without health care should go to the emergency room. Bush of course has never been to one, anymore than you have. If you go to an emergency room in a city like New York City you have to wait twelve hours in the waiting room to be even looked at. Is that the kind of America you think this should be?

I'm surprised you aren't demanding an end to public education as well. After all, if children want to be educated they can bloody well get a job and earn the money to hire a teacher. No doubt you think public, enforced education is creeping socialism. And while you are at it, you doubtless will want to put an end to social security because that's socialistic too.

Robertf,Well, sinc... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

Robertf,

Well, since you mention it. We should allow more charter and choice schools and they will put our public schools out of business in short order. What are we ranked, something like 20 in the industrialized world while spending by far the most money? Liberals, yikes!

Socialized medicine is Socialism, forget the creeping, and it is not just the rich who are going around it in Canada - many are now buying private insurance so they don't have to wait a year to get an MRI.

Four million Canadians cannot find a regular doctor. You think these are all rich guys?

Open your eyes.

For the Karl Marx love-in, see Wizbang Blue.

I see the myth about health... (Below threshold)

I see the myth about health care costs and bankruptcy is still being flung about.

Robert The Originial,... (Below threshold)
RobertF:

Robert The Originial,

I had a frozen shoulder a few years ago and went to my primary health care physician. He approved my going to an orthopedist (that means a bone doctor). So I called the orthopedist and his secretary said he wouldn't see me unless I had MRI results sent to him prior to the visit. So I had to apply to my insurance company for permission to have an MRI. The insurance company after a few days approved it, so I had my MRI. Did you know that a simple MRI of a shoulder costs over $1,500?

I really, really had a bad shoulder. An MRI was a priority in my case.

But a couple years later my other shoulder got sore. But the doctor, who knew what he was doing, sensed it was not as serious and told me to simply "do the exercises you did for the other shoulder". There was no MRI.

If every time somebody has a pain in their body their doctor tells them they have to get an MRI then yes, there could be a wait in a place like Canada.

But you are missing the point when you dicker about MRI's. Universal Health Care makes a profound difference when you get cancer and similar really serious, big time problems. In America if you get cancer you lose your entire life savings right off the bat. That is a given in America when a major illness occurs if you are an average American with an average health plan.

But in every other country in the world that is industrialized and western, Universal Health Care takes care of you for free when you have cancer and similar really big, big problems.

My point is that UHC prioritizes. It puts people with serious problems first and makes people with less serious problems wait a little.

But to me that's worth the benefits of UHC.

Really and truly, Americans have been brainwashed by the for-profit health care corporations. Did you know that they spent over $200 million dollars to defeat Hillary Clinton's plan?

Every single western, industrialized nation in the world has UHC except America. Doesn't that make you even a little bit suspicious that you are being conned by the for-profit health care corporations?

Robertf,In Canada ... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

Robertf,

In Canada and in England, some patients are deemed "too old" for certain procedures - like heart surgery.

Others die on the waiting list.

If they can afford it, they come here, home of the best heart care in the world. Or, they buy supplemental private health care in Canada. Lots of people buy this. Why would they buy private insurance absent a severe doctor shortage and long wait times?

You admit that Communist countries are bad, yet you love their socialist systems.

Don't you get it? The reason these countries are so screwed up is DUE TO THEIR SOCIALIST WAYS. That is why their economies suck.

You say the US has the "worst health care by any measure", yet you admit that "rich" guys come here for "premium", "VIP" care. WTF?

Children are all covered here, by the way, before you try that one again.

So you say "Cuba sucks" and then you say let's do everything they do. WTF?

Robert the Original,<... (Below threshold)
RobertF:

Robert the Original,

There are some semantic barriers obstructing optimal communication here. May I humbly suggest in the interests of better understanding that you read (or at least google) the two books that nearly all liberal republicans and liberal democrats have been deeply affected by:

one) Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser

two) Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich

You continue to make the point, which is true, that people with a lot of money like to come to America to buy expensive medical treatments. The problem with that argument is that the disparity between the rich and the poor has never been greater in the entire history of America. What the rich can afford to do has little relevance to what the increasingly burdened middle class can afford.

The middle class in America are increasingly flying to India to have state of the art heart surgery, hip replacements, etc. The cost is about one third what it costs in America and that includes airfare. Medical treatment in India is as good and often better than the same treatment in America, for those who can afford it.

Please accept the reality that Cuba is a communist country not a socialist country. Also try to remember that England, France, Germany, Sweden, etc. all have Universal Health Care and *none* of them are communist.

You seem to have a bit of trouble accepting that there are millions of people in America who have no health care insurance. You only refer to those Americans who do have health insurance. Have you given any thought to what happens to people in America who get cancer and have no health care insurance? Is it overly difficult for you to accept that it is impossible in America to buy health insurance for less than $20,000 per year if you have a pre-existing cancer? Is that the kind of America you wish to leave to the next generation?

Robertf,You pompou... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

Robertf,

You pompous, arrogant MFer, I have shredded your arguments over and over, I have defeated your whole family and yet you have the temerity to suggest I read your propaganda?

WTF do you think you are.

Try making an argument that makes some sense first.

More shredding:

A point I made is that lots of people are coming here, not just the rich, which you would know if you could read. In case you didn't notice England has hired lots of third world doctors because they are cheap not because they are good. Is that what you want, some Pakistani doctors with Mercedes?

Yes England, France, Germany and Sweden are all on some form of Socialized medicine. France has a negative economic growth rate and Germany has been very slow. The US has added TEN TIMES more new jobs than Western Europe over the last thirty years.

Their population is sustained only by immigration and their economies are flat.

Western Europe is an economic midget compared to the US.

Is that your great model Formaldehyde? You can't use Cuba because I shredded that, you can't use Canada because the facts get in the way. Now you go to Europe.

So you think it would be good to add some socialism and crash our economy down to that of Europe?

What's next Mr. Marx, Sudan?

Robert the Original,<... (Below threshold)
RobertF:

Robert the Original,

The first of the two books I recommended (Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser)is rated the 268th best selling book at amazon.com. The second book I recommended (Nickel and Dimed) is the 259th best selling book at amazon.com

To give you an idea of how many people have read those two books, consider that the book I myself wrote is the 4,109,898th best selling book at amazon.com

Your irrational response, I cannot help but assume, is simply your way to admit you have run out of intelligent/thoughtful ideas. Your attention span has been maxed out. There is nothing I can do about that except marvel at the process as it unraveled before me and the rest of us here.

Best of luck to you. I wish you had been more rational, but you can't help being true to whoever or whatever it is you are.

Bye.

Alternately, RobertF, rejec... (Below threshold)

Alternately, RobertF, rejecting those two books could simply be a matter of exercising independent judgment and not being overly interested in being "part of the herd."

What IS the magic in numbers? If you're not ascribing accuracy to a book based on its sales figures (and that makes me wonder what you think of the Bible), then someone else is touting Bush's popularity scores or public support for the war.

Learn to think for yourself, you sheep.

J.

RobertF, my experience is t... (Below threshold)

RobertF, my experience is that Fast Food Nation uses the same technique you do; that of throwing out meaningless, irrelevant or misrepresented statistics as though they were arguments by themselves.

Robertf,Irrational... (Below threshold)
Robert the Original:

Robertf,

Irrational my butt. Don't forget to put your tail between your legs when you go.

You make a series of feeble arguments, for which you get thoroughly trashed, and now somehow you think I want the source of your nonsense?

Shred alert:

You claim that communists are not socialists. This is nearly the single most stupid statement ever made on these pages by someone not named Lee or Barney. And we are talking volumes of stupid here Formaldehyde.

You show that you know nothing of Lenin... make that nothing of history...make that nothing.

The American Heritage Dictionary (This too is a book, twit): "All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists."

Here is the link:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

Piss off, jerk, and take that Michael Moore crap with you.

RobertF:Every ... (Below threshold)
marc:

RobertF:

Every single western, industrialized nation in the world has UHC except America. Doesn't that make you even a little bit suspicious that you are being conned by the for-profit health care corporations?

Um... er, actually no. But I do get very suspicious of someone who has used that same line so many times in the same argument and in the same thread as if no one had read it the first couple of times.

Why, it makes me think you have been conned (brainwashed?) by the "Sicko" types and bring nothing much of substance to the debate.

That conclusion is re-enforced by two other parts of your argument:

1. That the U.S. gov can do better at running the health care system than private health care facilities of insurance companies.

This has been asked many times and NO
cognitive response has ever been give by "your side;" Name a single U.S. gov run operation that is run efficiently and at or under budget?

BTW, the population of France and the U.K. combined is less than half of the U.S. population. Given the well documented problems in those two countries how anyone with a half a brain cell can believe the U.S. gov can match their performance is delusional.

2. That Americans are running to India for expensive procedures presumably because they are cheaper as a result of the country having a "better" system for health care in place.

Correct, and for the most part Americans of ABOVE AVEARGE means are going to India for procedures their own citizens have no access to. AND for procedures that are not in "the mainstream" of medical practice. (read holistic and other such tripe)

That aside India's system SUCKS for their own population.

In addition, "while the quality of health care for hundreds of millions of Indians is miserable" not even their rich elite can be assured they will survive a trip to one of their many private facilities.

One last point, one you seem so proud to make, "free" gov run health care isn't FREE, never was never will be.

A maniac with a little gaso... (Below threshold)
spurwing plover:

A maniac with a little gasoline and a few matches can cuase more death then a maniac with a gun as was with the HAPPY LAND DISCO back in 1990 and that guy got several life terms and the rejected the insanity plea




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