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What's Spanish For "Quid Pro Quo?"

Well, there's trouble on the southern border again. It seems that the government is getting sick and tired of the constant smuggling across the border, and is threatening to do something.

Oddly enough, the government this time is Mexico's, and they're fed up with guns coming south.

My first response is really unworthy. These undocumented guns are simply doing the jobs that Mexican guns don't want to do, killing the Mexicans that the native firearms can't be bothered to kill.

I have some sympathy for them. We certainly know what it's like to have a neighbor treat your border like a joke, to ship unwanted stuff across it and alleviate their own problems by making them someone else's problems.

Now, I wouldn't be a very good neighbor if I didn't offer a solution or two for the problem.

First up, there are some people who are discussing this radical notion for the border that just might be crazy enough to work. They call it a "wall" or a "fence," and it seems to revolve around putting up some sort of physical structure that makes it darned difficult for people or things to go through it.

The beauty of these "walls" is that they seem to work in both directions, so we'd only need one of them to solve both problems.

The other solution is to let the free markets solve the problem. Mexico is complaining that there are too many American guns and ammunition in their country; we complain that there are too many undocumented Mexicans in the United States.

Now, if you ask any good liberal, they will tell you that the root of most problems is not people, but things. Guns are the bad, dangerous, evil things that kill people, not the people using them. So, by that reasoning, Mexico's problem is far worse than our own.

So here's my solution, generated out of the goodness of our hearts: we set up an exchange program where the United States trades with Mexico. We take back our guns, they take back their citizens. The free market will help settle an exchange rate, but I think we should start out with 100 people per gun. The actual ratio of American guns vs. illegal Mexicans is pretty much impossible to determine, but I've seen estimates of both figures that put the true ratio closer to 600-1 or 1,000-1, so 100 ought to be a good starting point.

It's a simple, elegant solution, and everyone wins.

Which is precisely why I don't expect it to go anywhere.


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Comments (26)

I've said it before and I'l... (Below threshold)
jim:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if we really want to stop illegal immigration, all we have to do is hand out jail time to CEO's of companies that hire them.

Of course, neither party wants to do that to their corporate sponsors. But if we seriously did that, we'd see all those jobs for illegal immigrants dry up and disappear overnight.

Otherwise, the ingenuity of men trying to feed their families will find a way over, under, around or through any wall ever made, every time.

I'll accept the fact that a... (Below threshold)
Matt:

I'll accept the fact that a lot of guns are stolen in the SW us and taken to Mexico, mine were. However, I don't see anyone from Mexico or the U.S. showing solid evidence of newly purchased U.S. provenance firearms being taken directly to Mexico. I am sure some are, by U.S. citizens that are passing them off to smugglers or family members that live in Mexico, or a few odd straw purchasers. I'd like to see the proof of the "streams" of legal U.S. weapons that are going into Mexico. I'd like to see the prosecutions of LICENSED U.S. dealers that are looking the other way.

These pronouncements are part and parcel being used to set the stage for "Reforms" on U.S. gun owners. The next step will be to harmonize U.S. laws with Mexican laws like we have with trade. It would be a logical move for the SPP summit.

THe Weapons that are causing the most damage in Mexico, military grade explosives, RPGs, full-automatic arms etc are in pretty short supply in over-the-counter U.S.

I like your Idea Jay, but how about we just flood the Mexican market with cheap, low-cost weaponry, and let the Mexicans work it out amongst themselves. Either the Drug Cartels, Mexican Government or Mexican Citizens will win. I'd lay heavy money on the Mexican Citizens, if they had the arms.

if we really want ... (Below threshold)
The Whistler:
if we really want to stop illegal immigration, all we have to do is hand out jail time to CEO's of companies that hire them.

The federal government has made it illegal to NOT hire a person who has "reasonable looking" ID.

The problem and the responsibility to enforce are all the fault of the government. Pretending otherwise is stupid.

MattI like you... (Below threshold)

Matt
I like your Idea Jay, but how about we just flood the Mexican market with cheap, low-cost weaponry

The Germans actually considered that in the prelude to World Wars I and II.

On this topic, I agree with Jim (which is a first). Mexicans illegally migrate north for money. That money comes from U S employers.

This is not rocket science. Whenever ANYONE applies for a job, cross check the SS# against a database that the IRS already has established. That will eliminate a large part of the illegal population still entering. This will be a major step toward securing the border. No catch and release. Send them back.

The linchpin of any mechanism to control illegal entry is to start with what motivates the illegals...American business. Make the penalties similar to those penalties for not paying payroll taxes. That will solve the problem fast. As to the incumbent illegals, let private busines figure out how to deal with them once the penalties are in place.

WhistlerThe ... (Below threshold)

Whistler

The problem and the responsibility to enforce are all the fault of the government. Pretending otherwise is stupid.

The responsibility to obey the law is that of the individual or business. If either is caught disobeying the law they are responsible for the consequences.


Said another way, if you are an employer, and you fail to pay payroll taxes, are you going to blame it on the government if some time passes between your non compliance and getting caught?

I've had a few "interesting... (Below threshold)
cirby:

I've had a few "interesting" friends (cops and criminals) over the years, and one thing I remember from some of those guys is that, if you wanted a really good illegal firearm, you got it through Mexico, by way of places in Central and South America.

My people hope attack on th... (Below threshold)
WETBACK:

My people hope attack on these government, they aryan blooded control in Mexico power truly hate they hold us down, they kings and we a dog. We no longer be refugee. We fight, not like stupid American gringo who kiss the jew behind.

:)


The responsibility... (Below threshold)
The Whistler:
The responsibility to obey the law is that of the individual or business. If either is caught disobeying the law they are responsible for the consequences.

First of all you ignore the fact that the government has made it impossible to not hire illegal aliens.

Secondly if you're unwilling to jail the illegal alien for taking the job why is ok to jail the other party to a transaction. Certainly the illegal alien knows he's taking the job wrongfully as well as breaking other laws.

First of all you igno... (Below threshold)

First of all you ignore the fact that the government has made it impossible to not hire illegal aliens.

How so?

I know how not to hire an illegal alien. How has the government made it impossible to do something I already know not to do?

For the record, I think thi... (Below threshold)

For the record, I think this idea (or something similar) originated with someone else; possibly even Jay Tea last time he posted on a similar situation. With that in mind, I say we set up a "Guns for Immigrants" program, in which Mexico gives us all their unwanted illegal guns, and we give Mexico all of our unwanted illegal immigrants.

Secondly if you're un... (Below threshold)

Secondly if you're unwilling to jail the illegal alien for taking the job why is ok to jail the other party to a transaction.

You misunderstand my point: If an illegal alien takes a job in the US with the approval of his US employer then BOTH parties should prosecuted. Why do I think you have no understanding of payroll withholding?


How so?I know... (Below threshold)
The Whistler:
How so?

I know how not to hire an illegal alien. How has the government made it impossible to do something I already know not to do?

Here's an article I did on Say Anything a year ago on the subject.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/darned_if_you_do/

The fact is that if the illegal has "reasonable looking" ID you can't discriminate against him.

If an illegal alien takes a job in the US with the approval of his US employer then BOTH parties should prosecuted.

Assuming the employer knew that he was an illegal I would agree with that. However in many cases even the bad employers have plausible deniability due to the shortcomings of the system. I pointed out how the "good" employer and the nudge/nudge wink/wink employer are going to wind up with exactly the same number of illegals working for them.

Of course the government is at first responsible to secure the borders. Even a perfect employer situation isn't going to keep out criminals or independent contractors.


Why do I think you have no understanding of payroll withholding?

I'll put your mind at ease and tell you that I do understand it and work with it. I fail to see what that has to do with the topic at hand.

I read the original post wi... (Below threshold)
Diane:

I read the original post without first noticing who was the author. Immediately, I knew it was Jay Tea---for there was "bang" with the "wiz", or rather "wiz" with the "bang"...welcome back!

What's Spanish for "Quid... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

What's Spanish for "Quid Pro Quo"?

Esto para eso. Just sayin'...

If an illegal alien tak... (Below threshold)
marc:

If an illegal alien takes a job in the US with the approval of his US employer then BOTH parties should prosecuted.

A very good reason for ALL immigrants to have ID cards that contain biometric data, retina scans for example, and the accompanying data base to check them against.

But the chances of the idiots in D.C. coming up with that solution is somewhere between fat & chance.

The Whistler is right about... (Below threshold)

The Whistler is right about the "reasonable looking" ID. The problem is also compounded by incompetent government workers who issue IDs to people without enough proof of their identity. If due diligence is used by the employer in accepting IDs, then they're not going to be prosecuted.

There's also an issue where checking a federal database comes in. The security software and hardware needed to access such sensitive information can be very costly for a small business. We recently had to become compliant with new Visa regulations in processing credit cards and it cost us thousands. Imagine having access to a database with SS numbers and the compliance costs.

And now i suppose mexico wi... (Below threshold)
spurwing plover:

And now i suppose mexico will now demand we adopt their own strict gun control laws. Well all i san say is SCREW IT we have a constitution and mexico dosnt so tell mexico to GET A LIFE AND STOP SENDING YOUR CRINIMALS OVER HERE WHERE THEY BREAK IN A HOUSE AND GET SHOT DEAD

Come on guys, try to show s... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Come on guys, try to show some understanding.

Mexico has about 73 citizens left that haven't run to another country. If they start killing each other, Mexico's economy will collapse....not even the billions of American dollars being siphoned in annually could save it.

Plus, it's a fair trade, both guns and illegal immigrants are known to be responsible for American deaths...right WETBACK?

¿entienda el nacho?

Oh yeah. If Mexico collapse... (Below threshold)
jim:

Oh yeah. If Mexico collapses, there'll be no more people fleeing to the US.

Woo.

As for it already being illegal to employ illegal immigrants - yeah, sure. The problem is 2 parts:

a) enforcement - which is basically nil on the people who set the policy

b) punishment - if the punishment is only fines, then guess what? The CEO's are going to look at the extra profit made, and deduct the fines as a cost of doing business. That's why jail time is the only punishment that will really have any effect on this.

And as for illegals being equally guilty, and thus getting equal punishment - ok, sure. But punishing illegals isn't going to solve what's pulling them into the US. The only thing that will solve it is those jobs drying up - and the only way those jobs will dry up, is if those who offer the jobs know they'll really be up the creek if they're caught doing it.

jim,Oh ye... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

jim,

Oh yeah. If Mexico collapses, there'll be no more people fleeing to the US.

Seems you entirely missed the satire, unless you really believe there are only 73 people left in Mexico.

And as for illegal... (Below threshold)
the Whistler:
And as for illegals being equally guilty, and thus getting equal punishment - ok, sure. But punishing illegals isn't going to solve what's pulling them into the US.

Duh it's the fact that the government doesn't enforce our laws and punish the illegals for continually breaking our laws that brings them here.

And the same thing goes for employers that intentionally break out laws. The government doesn't enforce the law, if they did the problem would be solved.

Of course you are still ign... (Below threshold)
the Whistler:

Of course you are still ignoring the fact that the government has made it impossible for employers to not hire illegals.

You don't do reality well do you?

Whistler, wake up.... (Below threshold)
jim:

Whistler, wake up.

Why do illegals come here? To make money they can't in their home country.

Therefore, if they can't make this money because most people won't hire them, most of them won't come here. No more lure, no more people lured.

And honestly, it sounds like an excuse to me, that it's so difficult for big employers to check all their employees documentation. If that's the case, then why are they paying so many off the books, with no documentation even checked?

But let's say for argument's sake, it's true that the difficulty in checking the docs is the reason so many illegals are workign here...I still *guarantee* to you, that jail time for those hiring the illegals will straighten this right out. As opposed to our current system, which we can both agree does not work at all.

Now, I'm not holding my breath for either the GOP *or* the Democratic party to actually hold CEO's responsible for their hiring practices. I'm just saying, if you really wanted to solve this mess, that's one of the few things taht would actually do it.

And honestly, it s... (Below threshold)
The Whistler:
And honestly, it sounds like an excuse to me, that it's so difficult for big employers to check all their employees documentation.

As I documented if they have reasonable looking ID you have to take it.

You can get fake ID quicker and cheaper than you can get the real stuff.

Blaming employers for that fact is farcical.

Why do illegals come here? To make money they can't in their home country.

Some come for jobs. Many others come to commit crimes, live off of welfare, have babies here so their children will be citizens, access our free health care (that we have to pay for) or maybe even work jobs for cash (such as landscaping).

Yeah right, blaming the business person who had to accept a fake ID is really going to solve the problem. Because putting some business people in jail is going to deter drug smugglers from crossing our border.

By the way how many executives and supervisors were charged in the Swift Meat Packing raids? None because they obeyed the law and hired illegals who had fake ID's.

Which way Western man? disc... (Below threshold)
WETBACK:

Which way Western man? discrimination? deportation? annihilation? or liberation?

What a horrible predicament, and you have no one else to blame but your own damn government. Minutemen lay down, this isn't an invasion it's an invitation. Come one come all, and theres nothing your going to do about it because this is what Big Brother apparently wants.

How hateful the shoot to kill orders on the border speech, what a crime it is to say. No you should welcome them in with open arms and colorful balloons. They pay taxes you know. There willing to do the Jobs welfare recipients aren't.

There courteous and kind and there eager to work, and all they want is a chance at the American dream. I mean how can you hate them just listen to them.

http://ccir.net/AUDIO/TakeoverOfAmericaCD/Menu.html

all they want is a chance a... (Below threshold)
The Whistler:

all they want is a chance at the American dream.

Hey there's nothing stopping them from succeeding in their own country except their government.

We can't fix it for them.




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